There are two ways you could look at this. The first is that it's actually correct, and instead the fanbase's general understanding of what defines "a great one" is mistaken. If so, while there are "True Great ones" that were born as a specific kind of higher being than most other creatures, if a creature is able to gain enough power to effectively reach the power level of "true" Great Ones, is there really a difference anymore?
The other is that it's indeed incorrect, as the Celestial Emissaries were humans that were artificially transformed into Kin. There could be a few possible reasons, ranging from "the person writing this didn't fully understand the lore, so just slapped a basic label on them", to "They didn't care, and just wanted it to be consistent with other major eldritch-creature boss fights", to even something like "It's intentionally incorrect, but written from the perspective of the church who either don't see, or haven't learned, about the difference between extremely powerful Kin and Great Ones, so they canonically mistook non-Great Ones as Great Ones."
I've never really thought much about this honestly, so I don't know which one the evidence points towards being more likely to be true. But those are the two main ways I can imagine an explanation for why it's written like that.
Rom clearly ascended from something lesser to a Great One via whatever they were doing at Byrgenwerth. Being that there is precedent for “becoming” a Great One , it’s not much of a stretch to assume the Church/Orphanage was able to achieve the same thing with the Celestial Emissary.
I agree here.
Redgrave cites this as proof that Rom isn’t a “true” Great One, but I disagree with him on this point. I think the confusion stems from differing definitions of what qualifies as a “Great One”. As discovered in the game, they are god like, higher beings, but some in game characters talk about Great Ones as a status one can attain via reaching a higher level of intelligence/understanding/sight. So it comes down to how you answer the question: is a Great One a specific type of being, or is it a classification of any being who reach a certain plane of existence/understanding/intelligence?
I think that, at the least, the fact Rom drops a Kin great blood is proven to not be dispositive by the fact a Kin can be classified as a Great One, evidenced by the Celestial Emissary that started this whole discussion. So Rom being Kin doesn’t preclude her from also being a Great One.
Byrgenwerth has everything to do with it.
Gehrman and Maria were sent to the finishing hamlet from Byrgenwerth to recover whatever had washed ashore. That’s where they get the cord from Kos which they bring back to Byrgenwerth to use in Master Willams ritual for Ron’s ascension.
>Gehrman and Maria were sent to the finishing hamlet from Byrgenwerth to recover whatever had washed ashore. That’s where they get the cord
Till now I'm with you
>from Kos
Some say Kosm
>to use in Master Willams ritual for Ron’s ascension.
Here.. didn't they use it to make contact with the pale moon? To try to find a way to escape from the nightmare of the hunter, creating the dream, a "safe" version of it (they weren't successful obviously)
Otherwise I can't find a way to make sense of the contact with the pale moon
Instead imo it does make more sense that Kos gave of her own free will the eyes to Rom, being her a student of byrgenwerth or a village fisherman not much change
Edit: plus my first comment
As I understand it, you’re mixing up the timeline a bit.
Maria and Gehrman were aligned with Byrgenwerth prior to the events of the game/DLC. Their expedition to the Fishing Village took place before Maria even entered the nightmare (I’m unsure if it existed prior to this, but she certainly wasn’t there). They went to the village, pillaged the corpse of Kos, slaughtered the villagers in the name of research, and returned to Byrgenwerth with stillborn Orphan (from which they retrieved the cord).
By the time of the events of the game, there are opposing factions trying to use the cord to achieve slightly differing goals. Byrgenwerth/Willam wants to use the cord to “grant humans eyes” so that they can ascend to/comprehend the Great Ones/the Eldrich truth.
"Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness."
This is essentially what he achieves with Rom.
The Healing Church is after the same goal, but is going a different route to achieve it: the use of the Old Blood. This is why Laurence splits from Willam, and why Willam warns him as he is leaving (the “remember the words” cutscene),
Willam understands the risks of what the Church is doing, and uses Rom to protect against the nightmare/prevent the Church summoning the Moon Presence via the Old Blood/secure the waking world from the Eldrich horrors. Which is why Rom is at the bottom of the lake.
“Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an auger of the Eldrich truth.”
As far as Kos being able to “give” Rom eyes, as far as I know there is no evidence of anyone outside of the fishing village even having knowledge of Kos’ existence prior to her death. She is killed by the villagers at sea before they even truly know what she is (if they ever really do), and word of her existence only reaches Yharnam/Byrgenwerth after her corpse washes ashore, which leads to the events discussed above. I’m fairly certain that Micolash’s statement about Kos giving Rom eyes is referencing the fact that it’s from her body/the cord that Rom was granted “sight”. Very much like taking communion.
Hey! Yes, I'm responding after two days but I only now had time to do it and yes, it's a bit of a wall of text but I wanted to do it nonetheless because I was having fun :)
So.. let's start
>As I understand it, you’re mixing up the timeline a bit.
I have the same impression, lol
>Maria and Gehrman were aligned with Byrgenwerth prior to the events of the game/DLC. Their expedition to the Fishing Village took place before Maria even entered the nightmare (I’m unsure if it existed prior to this, but she certainly wasn’t there).
Correct and obviously the nightmare didn't exist prior to the fishermen village events, it's the curse of Kos against the hunters for what they did there
>They went to the village, pillaged the corpse of Kos, slaughtered the villagers in the name of research, and returned to Byrgenwerth with stillborn Orphan (from which they retrieved the cord).
Everything's correct except the part of the corpse but I will return on that later
>Byrgenwerth/Willam wants to use the cord to “grant humans eyes” so that they can ascend to/comprehend the Great Ones/the Eldrich truth
That's true in the sense that it's the goal of Willem but it's not "during" the events of the game, in this part of the timeline the head of byrgenwerth, idk if you noticed, but is just a really old man incapable of speaking and only half transformed with alien snail stuff on the back
>This is essentially what he achieves with Rom
I'd like to have proof from the game of that because I don't remember anything mentioning it
>The Healing Church is after the same goal, but is going a different route to achieve it: the use of the Old Blood. This is why Laurence splits from Willam, and why Willam warns him as he is leaving (the “remember the words” cutscene),
Correct but I'm starting to think you think this happened way later than when it actually happened
>Willam understands the risks of what the Church is doing, and uses Rom to protect against the nightmare/prevent the Church summoning the Moon Presence via the Old Blood/secure the waking world from the Eldrich horrors. Which is why Rom is at the bottom of the lake.
To my understanding this instead is not correct:
What Rom is able to do is to hide every effect of rituals as the note after Gascoigne tells us, and for this power she is used by the Choire during the events of the game while the Rom we fight is a dream version of her because she is sleeping else where, she is not controlled by Willem and Byrgenwerth doesn't exist anymore. Willem was in harsh disagreement with everybody else for what and how they were trying to do and he remains near the lake to eventually tell a hunter where he or she must go to stop the hunt night (Infact the corpse of Rom is near Ebrietas under the cathedral of the healing church, not in Byrgenwerth)
Why the church is doing it? Because the part of the church who did the schism (the school of Mensis) wanted to try to achieve the status of great being in a different way than them, that is to say making contact with a great being and asking to it for eyes (in a sense in a more similar way as Willem) and they know it's possible because that's what happened with Rom and Kos. But they only knew this and not what happened to Kos eventually
Well how do you do that? How can you make contact? With a ritual, using an infant of a great being and the umbilical cord as a bait
What happens next? It happens that Mensis did the ritual using Mergo, the Moon presence notices it and starts to get closer to the material world BUT the Great being that we see called the Mergo's nurse arrives first to Mensis, and accepts the ritual, gives the nightmare to the school (or at least the possibility to use it) and grants them eyes.. fucking them, because she played with them: yes they were able to become a great one.. but a bit worse than what they hoped: and that's the brain of Mensis
Now what? Why the church at this point has to use Rom's powers? Because the Moon Presence is near and when this happens the borders between humans and beasts fade (the note about the red moon in Byrgenwerth), so the plague of the beast gets worse, way worse
As it happened when old Yarnham had to be fired down. And the citizens now know about this: blood moon means panic. And that's what the healing church is trying to do with Rom: maintaining as much as possible the situation of the city under control, at least hiding to the people the presence of the blood moon..
Then the situation got bad anyway because the spider only hides and doesn't nullify the rituals, the moon is still there, so the plague still spreads and everyone loses their mind
>As it happened when old Yarnham had to be fired down.
And there is when Germahn and co, using the now orphan of kos, made contact for the first time with the Moon presence, creating the dream in an attempt to escape the nightmare. In your comments still isn't mentioned where the MP should have appeared and why
>Kos is killed by the villagers at sea
They DIDN'T kill her, she appeared at the village and they worshipped her, they even call her "mother"...
Then Byrgenwerth (with Laurance still there) got news about this and sent Germahn and co.
They were the ones who killed her, that's the cause of, and at the same time, the secret hidden in the nightmare.
It's their sin, Every hunter after them eventually will have to suffer the literal hell of the nightmare because of what they did.
And it's a secret because obviously they didn't want to let this little information to be known. They still needed people to do the job of the hunters (because they still wanted to use the old blood and so people still would transform into beasts) but who would have accepte to become one knowing that you will have to go to hell eventually?
And if you happen to be new to the idea of seeing the nightmare as a hell, I'll let you know that there is a Buddhist version of hell where the damned are eternally tortured in rivers of blood by a demon in the shape of a horse...
That's why Maria in the end killed herself, moved by her guilt feelings btw
if you managed to arrive till here thanks for the attention I guess, I wish you a good hunt anyway :)
I’m also loving the conversation and (while this probably goes without saying) none of what I claim to understand about this game is fact. It’s a combination of my understanding of the game, mixed with a ton of Redgrave/Paleblood Hunt, and sprinkled with assorted other analysis. I’ll admit upfront that both I, and admittedly Redgrave, are hypothesizing in places. As a final disclaimer, I’m not currently playing the game, and haven’t done a full playthrough in a few months, so I’m going from memory here.
With that out of the way, I’ll clear up the timing issue first. I’m well aware that the activities of Byrgenwerth are far in the past, with most of those events predating even the Church.
Just to clarify, when you reference the schism between the Church and Mensis, you do realize that was separate and apart from the split between Willam/Byrgenwerth and Laurence? (which is the event that precipitated the establishment of the Church and effectively put into motion many of the factional conflicts we see in the game).
For the differences we have with Rom, I’m going to see if I can find citations to anything in game that back up my theory, or if it’s just headcannon I’ve created.
As far as Kos, I’m fairly certain that Kos was never alive upon the shore. The sins of Maria/Gehrman were the desecration of Kos, her orphan, and what they did to the villagers (scrape open their skulls looking for eyes). Could be another example of me misinterpreting, but I’m going to try to find the in game support for this as well.
You bring up interesting points regarding the Moon Presence, and I don’t even have a guess as to what was going on there. I’ll dig into that as well.
If you have any items or quotes you can point to to clarify some of these things, I’d love to see them (not challenging you, just genuinely curious).
Sorry for a half assed answer, but I just wanted to clear up how I saw few things off the bat. I’m always up for an excuse to read the Paleblood Hunt again, and you may have just given me one.
It is really great one . made by church to communicate with Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos after many experiences on orphan or anyone they could get they hand on
Kins are ex-human, we don't really know what the deal is with pure Great Ones though. A lot of flavor text implies they're aliens what with references to "the stars" and "the cosmos" (of course!) and "gazing up to the sky with wonder", and being explicitly based on Outer Gods.
Some kin are ex-humans. Ebrietas is labelled as a kin IIRC and as far as we know, she’s a regular great one that just kinda sucks at the whole “cosmic transcendence” thing.
Ebrietas is a kin but I don't think there's enough to say she isn't formerly human, we just don't know much about her past. She mourns Rom's corpse who is explicitly ex-human so there's that.
Ebrietas’ story as an “abandoned” Great One seems to imply that she was always a Great One like the rest but got left behind at some point while the rest ascended into the cosmos or whatever. Her mourning Rom doesn’t really say much considering Great Ones are explicitly sympathetic towards humanity.
Idk, I don't think that's anything so definite. We know she is a Kin, and the idea that there are "natural Kins" would be a pretty big and strange implication given everything else we know about them, and requires a bit more substance than one very vague flavor text that calls her abandoned.
The celestials are kin of the cosmos. They’re on the way to being a great one, minus a couple thousand years perhaps. They have ascended past humanity but not enough to be true fully formed great ones (yet)
They are some kind of "gods" you could say. Healing church and school of mensis are struggling to make some of them themselves (one reborn and brain of mensis we were both attempts of school of mensis but one reborn was a failed one). Living failures were a failed attempt (shocker) as a great one, but still use magic to attack you. On the other hand celestial emissary is a great one made from the church (from the orphans i think? Idk correct me if im wrong). Forgot to mention that L.F. were these deformed patients in research hall in the past, that's their purpose
This always confused me too.
However this makes me want to make a new account so I can get trophies again lol After collecting them I just miss the reward lol
I'm extremely confused by this. I did think the Celestial Emissaries were Great Ones. Except, Iosefka gets turned into one. Does that make Iosefka now a Great One?
No? She's still a kin like the other emissaries. Kin are essentially pre-great ones. They've ascended but are still mortal enough and haven't reached the true point of a GO. The only true great ones we meet/fight are Orphan, Wet nurse, the Amygdalae, and Moon presence being possibly the strongest. Every other celestial being is a kin, including the emissaries, Rom, and Ebrietas
Again, they are technically Great ones. Just not true ones in the ways of the others and aren't able to create whole realms like the Moon presence created the Hunter's dream. They haven't reached that ascension yet. Best way to tell if one is Kin and one is a full GO is their blood. Great ones bleed red while kin bleed pale.
Because she is a Kin, just like the emissaries and Rom. She is likely on the verge of becoming a full-fledged great one, but her humanity still is in there. She has a human heart for a head for one, which definitely links her to being human.
Wait, what?? I heard that she was a Great One who was "trapped" on Earth and couldn't find her way back, which led to her and the Healing Church working together. Is that wrong?
She wasn't a full great one, she was kin. It's possible she might've been a Pthumerian given ascension by the great ones, similar to Rom who was possibly a byrgenwerth scholar given ascension as well since both are kin.
She was found in the old abandoned labyrinths beneath Yharnam by the healing church, possibly left behind by her fellow kin and great ones, and was taken in by the church to be protected and used by the choir for communion of blood ministration, guiding high ranking members through the process. She might've been the source of Yharnam's blood healing, but that is debated.
Her only wish was to coexist with humans, but tragically, as she was left behind by the great ones, she was left by the Choir, and her last moments are spent mourning as we then arrive to slaughter her.
Great Ones in BB are like Great Lords in Dark Souls. They're just higher quality bosses who are mandatory and more directly related to story lines than ones who aren't Great Ones. Simply put that is.
They are Descendants of the Old Ones, like Kosm, Mergo, Odeon, or the Moon Presence. I believe that the Itz are descendants of Ebrietes, a Great One that was Left behind by the Old ones because they viewed her as not one of them. The Curch then found her in the Pthumeru Dungeons and brought her back to the Highest point possible in the Grand Cathedral. I'm guessing to both hide her from the Yharnamites and also as a sort of Praise to this God.
Great ones are somewhat lesser Gods in the Hierarchy, With The Amygdala being less powerful than Odeon, Kosm, and Moon Presence, but on par with that of Ebrietes and the Itz. We aren't sure how Powerful Mergo would have been seeing as how she hadn't survived Childhood and was fully Severed from the realm of Existence after we Defeat the Wet Nurse.
At first I believed that the Itz were simply a Church Experiment done by the False Isofka, however the Existence of Itz in the Forbidden Woods kinda threw that away, as the Church has sealed off that area, with only select members of the Chior knowing the Password.
And their Existence so Close to Ebrietes in the Upper Cathedral Ward, and in the Itz dungeons that require Pearl Slugs seems to validate that they are somehow connected.
TL;DR-- False God Babies. This includes Adriana's had I let it live.
In this specific case, they are "kin," not actually great ones. Kin are in some way associated with Great ones usually.
Edit: I was probably a bit misleading. Great ones are also kin. There are basically levels of kin, with great ones being celestial beings that live on another planet of existence. Bosses like CE, Rom, and the living failures are kin, but have not (or are not able to) ascended to the level of great one.
I never thought CE was anything other than a Great One. Kins are a category of Great Ones.
There are two ways you could look at this. The first is that it's actually correct, and instead the fanbase's general understanding of what defines "a great one" is mistaken. If so, while there are "True Great ones" that were born as a specific kind of higher being than most other creatures, if a creature is able to gain enough power to effectively reach the power level of "true" Great Ones, is there really a difference anymore? The other is that it's indeed incorrect, as the Celestial Emissaries were humans that were artificially transformed into Kin. There could be a few possible reasons, ranging from "the person writing this didn't fully understand the lore, so just slapped a basic label on them", to "They didn't care, and just wanted it to be consistent with other major eldritch-creature boss fights", to even something like "It's intentionally incorrect, but written from the perspective of the church who either don't see, or haven't learned, about the difference between extremely powerful Kin and Great Ones, so they canonically mistook non-Great Ones as Great Ones." I've never really thought much about this honestly, so I don't know which one the evidence points towards being more likely to be true. But those are the two main ways I can imagine an explanation for why it's written like that.
Rom clearly ascended from something lesser to a Great One via whatever they were doing at Byrgenwerth. Being that there is precedent for “becoming” a Great One , it’s not much of a stretch to assume the Church/Orphanage was able to achieve the same thing with the Celestial Emissary.
Yeah but rom doesn't drop great one coldblood but kin coldblood
That’s for gameplay pacing, not lore tho.
I agree here. Redgrave cites this as proof that Rom isn’t a “true” Great One, but I disagree with him on this point. I think the confusion stems from differing definitions of what qualifies as a “Great One”. As discovered in the game, they are god like, higher beings, but some in game characters talk about Great Ones as a status one can attain via reaching a higher level of intelligence/understanding/sight. So it comes down to how you answer the question: is a Great One a specific type of being, or is it a classification of any being who reach a certain plane of existence/understanding/intelligence? I think that, at the least, the fact Rom drops a Kin great blood is proven to not be dispositive by the fact a Kin can be classified as a Great One, evidenced by the Celestial Emissary that started this whole discussion. So Rom being Kin doesn’t preclude her from also being a Great One.
You literally find great one coldblood on human corpses around the world, but I don't think anyone would categorize those humans as great ones
Byrgenwerth has nothing to do with the ascension of Rom, she got eyes from Kos, Micholash tells us about that
Byrgenwerth has everything to do with it. Gehrman and Maria were sent to the finishing hamlet from Byrgenwerth to recover whatever had washed ashore. That’s where they get the cord from Kos which they bring back to Byrgenwerth to use in Master Willams ritual for Ron’s ascension.
>Gehrman and Maria were sent to the finishing hamlet from Byrgenwerth to recover whatever had washed ashore. That’s where they get the cord Till now I'm with you >from Kos Some say Kosm >to use in Master Willams ritual for Ron’s ascension. Here.. didn't they use it to make contact with the pale moon? To try to find a way to escape from the nightmare of the hunter, creating the dream, a "safe" version of it (they weren't successful obviously) Otherwise I can't find a way to make sense of the contact with the pale moon Instead imo it does make more sense that Kos gave of her own free will the eyes to Rom, being her a student of byrgenwerth or a village fisherman not much change Edit: plus my first comment
As I understand it, you’re mixing up the timeline a bit. Maria and Gehrman were aligned with Byrgenwerth prior to the events of the game/DLC. Their expedition to the Fishing Village took place before Maria even entered the nightmare (I’m unsure if it existed prior to this, but she certainly wasn’t there). They went to the village, pillaged the corpse of Kos, slaughtered the villagers in the name of research, and returned to Byrgenwerth with stillborn Orphan (from which they retrieved the cord). By the time of the events of the game, there are opposing factions trying to use the cord to achieve slightly differing goals. Byrgenwerth/Willam wants to use the cord to “grant humans eyes” so that they can ascend to/comprehend the Great Ones/the Eldrich truth. "Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." This is essentially what he achieves with Rom. The Healing Church is after the same goal, but is going a different route to achieve it: the use of the Old Blood. This is why Laurence splits from Willam, and why Willam warns him as he is leaving (the “remember the words” cutscene), Willam understands the risks of what the Church is doing, and uses Rom to protect against the nightmare/prevent the Church summoning the Moon Presence via the Old Blood/secure the waking world from the Eldrich horrors. Which is why Rom is at the bottom of the lake. “Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an auger of the Eldrich truth.” As far as Kos being able to “give” Rom eyes, as far as I know there is no evidence of anyone outside of the fishing village even having knowledge of Kos’ existence prior to her death. She is killed by the villagers at sea before they even truly know what she is (if they ever really do), and word of her existence only reaches Yharnam/Byrgenwerth after her corpse washes ashore, which leads to the events discussed above. I’m fairly certain that Micolash’s statement about Kos giving Rom eyes is referencing the fact that it’s from her body/the cord that Rom was granted “sight”. Very much like taking communion.
Hey! Yes, I'm responding after two days but I only now had time to do it and yes, it's a bit of a wall of text but I wanted to do it nonetheless because I was having fun :) So.. let's start >As I understand it, you’re mixing up the timeline a bit. I have the same impression, lol >Maria and Gehrman were aligned with Byrgenwerth prior to the events of the game/DLC. Their expedition to the Fishing Village took place before Maria even entered the nightmare (I’m unsure if it existed prior to this, but she certainly wasn’t there). Correct and obviously the nightmare didn't exist prior to the fishermen village events, it's the curse of Kos against the hunters for what they did there >They went to the village, pillaged the corpse of Kos, slaughtered the villagers in the name of research, and returned to Byrgenwerth with stillborn Orphan (from which they retrieved the cord). Everything's correct except the part of the corpse but I will return on that later >Byrgenwerth/Willam wants to use the cord to “grant humans eyes” so that they can ascend to/comprehend the Great Ones/the Eldrich truth That's true in the sense that it's the goal of Willem but it's not "during" the events of the game, in this part of the timeline the head of byrgenwerth, idk if you noticed, but is just a really old man incapable of speaking and only half transformed with alien snail stuff on the back >This is essentially what he achieves with Rom I'd like to have proof from the game of that because I don't remember anything mentioning it >The Healing Church is after the same goal, but is going a different route to achieve it: the use of the Old Blood. This is why Laurence splits from Willam, and why Willam warns him as he is leaving (the “remember the words” cutscene), Correct but I'm starting to think you think this happened way later than when it actually happened >Willam understands the risks of what the Church is doing, and uses Rom to protect against the nightmare/prevent the Church summoning the Moon Presence via the Old Blood/secure the waking world from the Eldrich horrors. Which is why Rom is at the bottom of the lake. To my understanding this instead is not correct: What Rom is able to do is to hide every effect of rituals as the note after Gascoigne tells us, and for this power she is used by the Choire during the events of the game while the Rom we fight is a dream version of her because she is sleeping else where, she is not controlled by Willem and Byrgenwerth doesn't exist anymore. Willem was in harsh disagreement with everybody else for what and how they were trying to do and he remains near the lake to eventually tell a hunter where he or she must go to stop the hunt night (Infact the corpse of Rom is near Ebrietas under the cathedral of the healing church, not in Byrgenwerth) Why the church is doing it? Because the part of the church who did the schism (the school of Mensis) wanted to try to achieve the status of great being in a different way than them, that is to say making contact with a great being and asking to it for eyes (in a sense in a more similar way as Willem) and they know it's possible because that's what happened with Rom and Kos. But they only knew this and not what happened to Kos eventually Well how do you do that? How can you make contact? With a ritual, using an infant of a great being and the umbilical cord as a bait What happens next? It happens that Mensis did the ritual using Mergo, the Moon presence notices it and starts to get closer to the material world BUT the Great being that we see called the Mergo's nurse arrives first to Mensis, and accepts the ritual, gives the nightmare to the school (or at least the possibility to use it) and grants them eyes.. fucking them, because she played with them: yes they were able to become a great one.. but a bit worse than what they hoped: and that's the brain of Mensis Now what? Why the church at this point has to use Rom's powers? Because the Moon Presence is near and when this happens the borders between humans and beasts fade (the note about the red moon in Byrgenwerth), so the plague of the beast gets worse, way worse As it happened when old Yarnham had to be fired down. And the citizens now know about this: blood moon means panic. And that's what the healing church is trying to do with Rom: maintaining as much as possible the situation of the city under control, at least hiding to the people the presence of the blood moon.. Then the situation got bad anyway because the spider only hides and doesn't nullify the rituals, the moon is still there, so the plague still spreads and everyone loses their mind >As it happened when old Yarnham had to be fired down. And there is when Germahn and co, using the now orphan of kos, made contact for the first time with the Moon presence, creating the dream in an attempt to escape the nightmare. In your comments still isn't mentioned where the MP should have appeared and why >Kos is killed by the villagers at sea They DIDN'T kill her, she appeared at the village and they worshipped her, they even call her "mother"... Then Byrgenwerth (with Laurance still there) got news about this and sent Germahn and co. They were the ones who killed her, that's the cause of, and at the same time, the secret hidden in the nightmare. It's their sin, Every hunter after them eventually will have to suffer the literal hell of the nightmare because of what they did. And it's a secret because obviously they didn't want to let this little information to be known. They still needed people to do the job of the hunters (because they still wanted to use the old blood and so people still would transform into beasts) but who would have accepte to become one knowing that you will have to go to hell eventually? And if you happen to be new to the idea of seeing the nightmare as a hell, I'll let you know that there is a Buddhist version of hell where the damned are eternally tortured in rivers of blood by a demon in the shape of a horse... That's why Maria in the end killed herself, moved by her guilt feelings btw if you managed to arrive till here thanks for the attention I guess, I wish you a good hunt anyway :)
I’m also loving the conversation and (while this probably goes without saying) none of what I claim to understand about this game is fact. It’s a combination of my understanding of the game, mixed with a ton of Redgrave/Paleblood Hunt, and sprinkled with assorted other analysis. I’ll admit upfront that both I, and admittedly Redgrave, are hypothesizing in places. As a final disclaimer, I’m not currently playing the game, and haven’t done a full playthrough in a few months, so I’m going from memory here. With that out of the way, I’ll clear up the timing issue first. I’m well aware that the activities of Byrgenwerth are far in the past, with most of those events predating even the Church. Just to clarify, when you reference the schism between the Church and Mensis, you do realize that was separate and apart from the split between Willam/Byrgenwerth and Laurence? (which is the event that precipitated the establishment of the Church and effectively put into motion many of the factional conflicts we see in the game). For the differences we have with Rom, I’m going to see if I can find citations to anything in game that back up my theory, or if it’s just headcannon I’ve created. As far as Kos, I’m fairly certain that Kos was never alive upon the shore. The sins of Maria/Gehrman were the desecration of Kos, her orphan, and what they did to the villagers (scrape open their skulls looking for eyes). Could be another example of me misinterpreting, but I’m going to try to find the in game support for this as well. You bring up interesting points regarding the Moon Presence, and I don’t even have a guess as to what was going on there. I’ll dig into that as well. If you have any items or quotes you can point to to clarify some of these things, I’d love to see them (not challenging you, just genuinely curious). Sorry for a half assed answer, but I just wanted to clear up how I saw few things off the bat. I’m always up for an excuse to read the Paleblood Hunt again, and you may have just given me one.
I they're not nightmares, nor beasts, i guess great ones they are
It is really great one . made by church to communicate with Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos after many experiences on orphan or anyone they could get they hand on
Ancient alien horrors beyond human comprehension=Great Ones
They're not aliens, they're ex-humans
Kins are ex-human, we don't really know what the deal is with pure Great Ones though. A lot of flavor text implies they're aliens what with references to "the stars" and "the cosmos" (of course!) and "gazing up to the sky with wonder", and being explicitly based on Outer Gods.
Some kin are ex-humans. Ebrietas is labelled as a kin IIRC and as far as we know, she’s a regular great one that just kinda sucks at the whole “cosmic transcendence” thing.
Ebrietas is a kin but I don't think there's enough to say she isn't formerly human, we just don't know much about her past. She mourns Rom's corpse who is explicitly ex-human so there's that.
Ebrietas’ story as an “abandoned” Great One seems to imply that she was always a Great One like the rest but got left behind at some point while the rest ascended into the cosmos or whatever. Her mourning Rom doesn’t really say much considering Great Ones are explicitly sympathetic towards humanity.
Idk, I don't think that's anything so definite. We know she is a Kin, and the idea that there are "natural Kins" would be a pretty big and strange implication given everything else we know about them, and requires a bit more substance than one very vague flavor text that calls her abandoned.
Yes but we're talking about the celestial emissary, a kin and an ex-human
The celestials are kin of the cosmos. They’re on the way to being a great one, minus a couple thousand years perhaps. They have ascended past humanity but not enough to be true fully formed great ones (yet)
Nah that’s the little ones. The boss version is a true Great One.
It’s still kin. You can tell because “+x% damage against kin” applies to it
I don't think so. They were created by the church/choir I believe.
That’s literally the entire point of the experiments, to create Great Ones.
They are some kind of "gods" you could say. Healing church and school of mensis are struggling to make some of them themselves (one reborn and brain of mensis we were both attempts of school of mensis but one reborn was a failed one). Living failures were a failed attempt (shocker) as a great one, but still use magic to attack you. On the other hand celestial emissary is a great one made from the church (from the orphans i think? Idk correct me if im wrong). Forgot to mention that L.F. were these deformed patients in research hall in the past, that's their purpose
This always confused me too. However this makes me want to make a new account so I can get trophies again lol After collecting them I just miss the reward lol
I'm extremely confused by this. I did think the Celestial Emissaries were Great Ones. Except, Iosefka gets turned into one. Does that make Iosefka now a Great One?
No? She's still a kin like the other emissaries. Kin are essentially pre-great ones. They've ascended but are still mortal enough and haven't reached the true point of a GO. The only true great ones we meet/fight are Orphan, Wet nurse, the Amygdalae, and Moon presence being possibly the strongest. Every other celestial being is a kin, including the emissaries, Rom, and Ebrietas
Kinda confusing that they call them Great Ones here then
Again, they are technically Great ones. Just not true ones in the ways of the others and aren't able to create whole realms like the Moon presence created the Hunter's dream. They haven't reached that ascension yet. Best way to tell if one is Kin and one is a full GO is their blood. Great ones bleed red while kin bleed pale.
That final detail is incorrect, Ebrietas bleeds white...
Because she is a Kin, just like the emissaries and Rom. She is likely on the verge of becoming a full-fledged great one, but her humanity still is in there. She has a human heart for a head for one, which definitely links her to being human.
Wait, what?? I heard that she was a Great One who was "trapped" on Earth and couldn't find her way back, which led to her and the Healing Church working together. Is that wrong?
She wasn't a full great one, she was kin. It's possible she might've been a Pthumerian given ascension by the great ones, similar to Rom who was possibly a byrgenwerth scholar given ascension as well since both are kin. She was found in the old abandoned labyrinths beneath Yharnam by the healing church, possibly left behind by her fellow kin and great ones, and was taken in by the church to be protected and used by the choir for communion of blood ministration, guiding high ranking members through the process. She might've been the source of Yharnam's blood healing, but that is debated. Her only wish was to coexist with humans, but tragically, as she was left behind by the great ones, she was left by the Choir, and her last moments are spent mourning as we then arrive to slaughter her.
Great Ones in BB are like Great Lords in Dark Souls. They're just higher quality bosses who are mandatory and more directly related to story lines than ones who aren't Great Ones. Simply put that is.
They're the bloodborne equivalent of demigods of Elden Ring, just a tier higher than a regular boss, at least lore-wise
They are Descendants of the Old Ones, like Kosm, Mergo, Odeon, or the Moon Presence. I believe that the Itz are descendants of Ebrietes, a Great One that was Left behind by the Old ones because they viewed her as not one of them. The Curch then found her in the Pthumeru Dungeons and brought her back to the Highest point possible in the Grand Cathedral. I'm guessing to both hide her from the Yharnamites and also as a sort of Praise to this God. Great ones are somewhat lesser Gods in the Hierarchy, With The Amygdala being less powerful than Odeon, Kosm, and Moon Presence, but on par with that of Ebrietes and the Itz. We aren't sure how Powerful Mergo would have been seeing as how she hadn't survived Childhood and was fully Severed from the realm of Existence after we Defeat the Wet Nurse. At first I believed that the Itz were simply a Church Experiment done by the False Isofka, however the Existence of Itz in the Forbidden Woods kinda threw that away, as the Church has sealed off that area, with only select members of the Chior knowing the Password. And their Existence so Close to Ebrietes in the Upper Cathedral Ward, and in the Itz dungeons that require Pearl Slugs seems to validate that they are somehow connected. TL;DR-- False God Babies. This includes Adriana's had I let it live.
Cuz they ate their cornflakes
iirc celestial emeceries are a man made great one. thata why they can be foumd in iosefkas clinic.
“Great Ones” are basically humans that have ascended to a higher plane of existence (the cosmos) through the use of echoes of blood
In this specific case, they are "kin," not actually great ones. Kin are in some way associated with Great ones usually. Edit: I was probably a bit misleading. Great ones are also kin. There are basically levels of kin, with great ones being celestial beings that live on another planet of existence. Bosses like CE, Rom, and the living failures are kin, but have not (or are not able to) ascended to the level of great one.