The old blood is not Laurence's blood. Laurence's blood was used later at the foundation of the healing church. I don't believe he was ever alive during the time of the healing church, as Miyazaki himself said the skull was the start of the church.
The game tells us Laurence came to Yharnum WITH blood or a holy medium, but there is no evidence exactly what that was.
It's most likely ritual blood from Pthumeru.
"I don't believe he was ever alive during the time of the Healing Church"?
Wasn't Laurence that founded the Church in the first place? Did he immediately die after creating it?
I don't think he was being literal, it's more like "the the Healing Church came from Laurence (his skull - his idea), but now we can look at that and reflect on how it transformed. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea."
I think he was, even though everyone ASSUMES Laurence did things while in the church.
There isn't any evidence he did anything but be called a founder. Everything we KNOW he did was before the church existed.
It absolutely tracks that he died after bringing the holy medium to Yharnam and Cainhurst but died shortly after. It also tracks that his weeping skull is the source of the blood, and that source is what made the church able to provide blood ministration.
*"Miyazaki: That's meant to give you a look into the memory of Laurence, who appears in the cut-scene as well. His skull served as the start of the Healing Church itself, but it's taken the form of a twisted beast. There's a lot you can imagine from that."*
If Laurence turned into a beast before the Healing Church started, wouldn't it be strange for Miyazaki to say "but it's taken the form of a twisted beast" after "his skull served as the start of the Healing Church"? I'm not sure how it reads to you, but to me it reads like he is separating the two things sequentially and asking you to consider the implications of the symbol of the origin of the Church ending up taking a twisted form later on. Otherwise I imagine he'd say something more like "Laurence's beast skull served as the start of the Healing Church" meaning that it was dubious from the beginning. I realize this may not be convincing to you, but I want to point out that there's more than one way to read this, and I think Laurence being the living founder of the Church makes more sense given that he's the first vicar, in the Hunter's Nightmare his skull is placed on a white church doctor uniform, you find the Research Hall pendant in his hand and there were repeated experiments in the scourge of beasts before Laurence's rune was discovered.
There are many ways to read it, but I haven't seen any evidence of Laurence doing anything after the church was founded.
Even the beast rune you reference is said to be one of the early Caryll runes. Caryll was the runesmith of Byrgenwerth, and I don't believe in any way affiliated with the church.
I think Miyazaki was implying you could imagine a lot from knowing the skull was the start of church. IE that Laurence was never a part of it, and this bleeding skull is either the source of the blood, or the venerated skull can be exposed to people in order to make them blood saints, similar to how exposure to third cords can evolve humans.
I'm talking about Beast's Embrace rune, which is not specified to be found earlier or later or whatever. It's the regular Beast rune that was early (actually the first). Otherwise yeah that's fine.
The Embrace item description is actually a really good piece of information, now that I'm reading it again.
I think you're partly wrong there, as we know from the item description that embrace was transcribed before the healing church existed. In fact I presume this rune was discovered to "fail" at the exact time the church was founded. It failed in Laurence.
Knowledge of the embrace became a foundation of the hidden church BECAUSE Laurence embraced the rune and became the biggest beast of all.
The item description calls this knowledge a foundation of the church. Just like Laurence.
*"I think you're partly wrong there, as we know from the item description that embrace was transcribed before the healing church existed."*
Foundation of the Healing Church comes from 礎 which is foundation stone or cornerstone, so it can either mean an early integral part of the Healing Church, or something that was / is important. What makes the description difficult is that it's speaking in the past tense and preferences the "foundation stone" meaning, and taking the two things together it's gives the impression that it's describing something that the Healing Church built itself off (to come into existence). Though that's just a bias in the grammar, and we see similar biases in the Executioner garb, Brain Fluid, or the note about the burning of Old Yharnam (all of which require less intuitive readings to 'get right'). What it is unquestionably saying is that the findings from the failed implementation of Beast's Embrace was knowledge that became integral to the Healing Church. It is not actually clear that Beast's Embrace came before the Church in this description in either English or especially Japanese. I would agree that it's most intuitive to read it as the knowledge was necessary for the creation of the Church, but I don't think it's right.
But the description of his skull says the he became the first cleric beast, so he was a member of the church before his death. And he also created the hunter's dream, and if hunters were around it means that beasts were too, and people transfom into beasts because they take the healing blood, therefore there can't be beasts without the Church
This is very very wrong. Pthumeru and Loran are centuries old.
The hunters were around before the church.
There were a TON of beasts around before the church, they were just much smaller. The item descriptions directly tell us this.
But Pthumeru and Loran are two very different civilizations from Yharnam with their own culture and organization, the only institution that we know for sure that ministered blood in Yharnam is the Healing Church after they discovered the blood in the labyrinths unless I'm missing somenthing. To which item descriptions are you referring when you say that there were smaller beasts around before the Church in Yharnam? I don't recall this part
What do you think the hunters were hunting, if not beasts?
The hunters predated the church.
There is an item description about the church expecting larger beasts, and a line about embracing beasthood turned you into a beast being a founding knowledge of the church.
To my understanding things went as follows: Byrgenwerth students find the blood, they study it and find out that beasthood is a thing and so you should fear the blood but Laurence decides to create the Healing Church anyway, beasts start running around due to the healing blood ministration, they try to control the scourge as said in the rune but fail so Gehrman and the hunters enter the scene, and Ludwig follows. The Church hunters were expecting larger beasts because they discovered that clerics transform into the most fearsome ones.
If the hunters and the beasts in Yharnam predate the Church and blood ministration, then how were people able to transform?
It's an honorary title.
There is literally 0 evidence he did anything after the foundation of the church, and there is evidence he turned into a beast before the church was formed (see beast rune embrace description).
I'd like to see some contradictory evidence if you have any, though.
Laurence departed from byergenwerth after the fight with willem, bringing with him a portion of the old blood, this lore is explained in items related to the church and the choir.
Of course one could make the argument that byergenwerth is not part of yharnam but idk
Laurence (or possibly another of the betrayers) also brought the blood to Cainhurst. My assumption is that it's Laurence in both cases. He was at the fishing hamlet, killed everyone in order to get the cord. Gave the blood to Cainhurst in order to produce yet another cord. I suspect he was on the way to Queen Yharnam when transformed. They took mergo, and the executioners were sent to get the cord from the Queen in Cainhurst after Laurence died.
The old blood is the blood of great ones. The blood of the healing church is a variant of the blood of Laurence who is a vicar, vicars are the source of the healing blood. Their blood is also a variant of the old blood.
I think it comes from Ebrietas, who the Healing Church used and abused for all their deeds such as growing Celestials at the Orphanage and filling blood vials etc.
The chalice dungeons. It is a popular idea that the source was Laurence himself, who became the headless bloodletting beast, and while that beast is named "host of the beast blood" in japanese & I do believe he is Laurence, I don't think that's the source. The blood had to be well-known enough to be feared, given to Cainhurst by a scholar who was probably Laurence, and for Laurence to then go on to beckon the moon presence, all before he transformed into the source of the blood. The source is from the chalice dungeons though
It is also not Ebrietas. Ebrietas' blood turns people into kin, not beasts. She was found after the establishment of the choir, which was an extension of the healing church, which was founded from the death of Laurence, who died after becoming a beast, which was because of the old blood
The old blood is not Laurence's blood. Laurence's blood was used later at the foundation of the healing church. I don't believe he was ever alive during the time of the healing church, as Miyazaki himself said the skull was the start of the church. The game tells us Laurence came to Yharnum WITH blood or a holy medium, but there is no evidence exactly what that was. It's most likely ritual blood from Pthumeru.
"I don't believe he was ever alive during the time of the Healing Church"? Wasn't Laurence that founded the Church in the first place? Did he immediately die after creating it?
Everyone assumes he was, but Miyazaki said his skull was the start of the church, in those exact words.
I don't think he was being literal, it's more like "the the Healing Church came from Laurence (his skull - his idea), but now we can look at that and reflect on how it transformed. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea."
I think he was, even though everyone ASSUMES Laurence did things while in the church. There isn't any evidence he did anything but be called a founder. Everything we KNOW he did was before the church existed. It absolutely tracks that he died after bringing the holy medium to Yharnam and Cainhurst but died shortly after. It also tracks that his weeping skull is the source of the blood, and that source is what made the church able to provide blood ministration.
*"Miyazaki: That's meant to give you a look into the memory of Laurence, who appears in the cut-scene as well. His skull served as the start of the Healing Church itself, but it's taken the form of a twisted beast. There's a lot you can imagine from that."* If Laurence turned into a beast before the Healing Church started, wouldn't it be strange for Miyazaki to say "but it's taken the form of a twisted beast" after "his skull served as the start of the Healing Church"? I'm not sure how it reads to you, but to me it reads like he is separating the two things sequentially and asking you to consider the implications of the symbol of the origin of the Church ending up taking a twisted form later on. Otherwise I imagine he'd say something more like "Laurence's beast skull served as the start of the Healing Church" meaning that it was dubious from the beginning. I realize this may not be convincing to you, but I want to point out that there's more than one way to read this, and I think Laurence being the living founder of the Church makes more sense given that he's the first vicar, in the Hunter's Nightmare his skull is placed on a white church doctor uniform, you find the Research Hall pendant in his hand and there were repeated experiments in the scourge of beasts before Laurence's rune was discovered.
There are many ways to read it, but I haven't seen any evidence of Laurence doing anything after the church was founded. Even the beast rune you reference is said to be one of the early Caryll runes. Caryll was the runesmith of Byrgenwerth, and I don't believe in any way affiliated with the church. I think Miyazaki was implying you could imagine a lot from knowing the skull was the start of church. IE that Laurence was never a part of it, and this bleeding skull is either the source of the blood, or the venerated skull can be exposed to people in order to make them blood saints, similar to how exposure to third cords can evolve humans.
I'm talking about Beast's Embrace rune, which is not specified to be found earlier or later or whatever. It's the regular Beast rune that was early (actually the first). Otherwise yeah that's fine.
The Embrace item description is actually a really good piece of information, now that I'm reading it again. I think you're partly wrong there, as we know from the item description that embrace was transcribed before the healing church existed. In fact I presume this rune was discovered to "fail" at the exact time the church was founded. It failed in Laurence. Knowledge of the embrace became a foundation of the hidden church BECAUSE Laurence embraced the rune and became the biggest beast of all. The item description calls this knowledge a foundation of the church. Just like Laurence.
*"I think you're partly wrong there, as we know from the item description that embrace was transcribed before the healing church existed."* Foundation of the Healing Church comes from 礎 which is foundation stone or cornerstone, so it can either mean an early integral part of the Healing Church, or something that was / is important. What makes the description difficult is that it's speaking in the past tense and preferences the "foundation stone" meaning, and taking the two things together it's gives the impression that it's describing something that the Healing Church built itself off (to come into existence). Though that's just a bias in the grammar, and we see similar biases in the Executioner garb, Brain Fluid, or the note about the burning of Old Yharnam (all of which require less intuitive readings to 'get right'). What it is unquestionably saying is that the findings from the failed implementation of Beast's Embrace was knowledge that became integral to the Healing Church. It is not actually clear that Beast's Embrace came before the Church in this description in either English or especially Japanese. I would agree that it's most intuitive to read it as the knowledge was necessary for the creation of the Church, but I don't think it's right.
But the description of his skull says the he became the first cleric beast, so he was a member of the church before his death. And he also created the hunter's dream, and if hunters were around it means that beasts were too, and people transfom into beasts because they take the healing blood, therefore there can't be beasts without the Church
This is very very wrong. Pthumeru and Loran are centuries old. The hunters were around before the church. There were a TON of beasts around before the church, they were just much smaller. The item descriptions directly tell us this.
But Pthumeru and Loran are two very different civilizations from Yharnam with their own culture and organization, the only institution that we know for sure that ministered blood in Yharnam is the Healing Church after they discovered the blood in the labyrinths unless I'm missing somenthing. To which item descriptions are you referring when you say that there were smaller beasts around before the Church in Yharnam? I don't recall this part
What do you think the hunters were hunting, if not beasts? The hunters predated the church. There is an item description about the church expecting larger beasts, and a line about embracing beasthood turned you into a beast being a founding knowledge of the church.
To my understanding things went as follows: Byrgenwerth students find the blood, they study it and find out that beasthood is a thing and so you should fear the blood but Laurence decides to create the Healing Church anyway, beasts start running around due to the healing blood ministration, they try to control the scourge as said in the rune but fail so Gehrman and the hunters enter the scene, and Ludwig follows. The Church hunters were expecting larger beasts because they discovered that clerics transform into the most fearsome ones. If the hunters and the beasts in Yharnam predate the Church and blood ministration, then how were people able to transform?
Laurence is literally called the First Vicar. How can he be the Vicar if the Church didn’t exist until after he died
It's an honorary title. There is literally 0 evidence he did anything after the foundation of the church, and there is evidence he turned into a beast before the church was formed (see beast rune embrace description). I'd like to see some contradictory evidence if you have any, though.
>The game tells us Laurence came to Yharnum WITH blood or a holy medium, When do they say that?
Laurence departed from byergenwerth after the fight with willem, bringing with him a portion of the old blood, this lore is explained in items related to the church and the choir. Of course one could make the argument that byergenwerth is not part of yharnam but idk
Laurence (or possibly another of the betrayers) also brought the blood to Cainhurst. My assumption is that it's Laurence in both cases. He was at the fishing hamlet, killed everyone in order to get the cord. Gave the blood to Cainhurst in order to produce yet another cord. I suspect he was on the way to Queen Yharnam when transformed. They took mergo, and the executioners were sent to get the cord from the Queen in Cainhurst after Laurence died.
The old blood is the blood of great ones. The blood of the healing church is a variant of the blood of Laurence who is a vicar, vicars are the source of the healing blood. Their blood is also a variant of the old blood.
I think it comes from Ebrietas, who the Healing Church used and abused for all their deeds such as growing Celestials at the Orphanage and filling blood vials etc.
The chalice dungeons. It is a popular idea that the source was Laurence himself, who became the headless bloodletting beast, and while that beast is named "host of the beast blood" in japanese & I do believe he is Laurence, I don't think that's the source. The blood had to be well-known enough to be feared, given to Cainhurst by a scholar who was probably Laurence, and for Laurence to then go on to beckon the moon presence, all before he transformed into the source of the blood. The source is from the chalice dungeons though It is also not Ebrietas. Ebrietas' blood turns people into kin, not beasts. She was found after the establishment of the choir, which was an extension of the healing church, which was founded from the death of Laurence, who died after becoming a beast, which was because of the old blood