No. They are trained. And the ones we train tend to leave the province because we overwork and underpay them and they can't even strike. And then we also lay off the ones we do hire. At least nurses.
For doctors we simply don't train enough. They are arbitrarily gatekept.
Current government of Ontario committed to two new med schools; and the learn and stay grant covers nursing in exchange for a commitment to stay in the province.
It’ll be a couple years but it’s something at least.
Actually if people can set up shop it might encourage more health practitioners to come here or train here. Ford did good. What we need to do is offer private delivery.
Ok first of all, even if the Russians were involved in the freedom convoy (which there is no evidence) do you not see the difference between a foreign government being involved in a *protest* vs a foreign government meddling in an *election*?
You think the American government has no part in our elections or funding of MPs or any other government for that matter... get a grip its world politics. It's a big ol red herring is what it is. I wouldn't even doubt if the liberals themselves drummed it up to bring attention away from something else.
>You think the American government has no part in our elections or funding of MPs or any other government for that matter... get a grip its world politics.
Provide one example, a credible written report about the US government meddling in Canadian elections. No, not a report about supposed US right wing funding of the convoy protests, the Federal election. No, not some crack pot theory you just came up with neither.
One credible report of the US government interfering in Canadian elections.
What a terrible article. Just looking at the first claim shows a wild amount of disinformation:
> For example, data obtained from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) shows that knee replacement surgery in a public hospital, paid by the province, costs about $10,000. The same surgery in a private clinic can reportedly cost patients up to $28,000.
If you read carefully and follow the links to those sources you see that:
* the public figure is for **just knee surgeries**, while the private figure is describing **both knee and hip surgeries**, with hip surgeries being more expensive (a public healthcare 75th percentile cost-wise hip replacement is $23,201, which is the closest thing to a fair comparison that we can find)
* the public figure is an **average**, while the private figure is the **maximum**
* the private figure is obviously covers all costs because the clinic has to bake that all in to the price, while the public figure **excludes land, buildings, and buildings services costs**, as well as atypical cases
CBC was either being unacceptably dishonest or unacceptably incompetent with this.
>These journalists are either malicious or maliciously incompetent, there is no other excuse.
Conflict of interest. A broadcasting service that gets money from the government will find it challenging to talk about privatization.
>CBC was either being unacceptably dishonest or unacceptably incompetent with this.
A four-year degree in journalism probably doesn't even make the student take an intro class in statistics.
What's the goal of journalism? It's to get clicks and drive political agendas. If you want to uncover the truth, you either go into the sciences or law.
The gull of these people to use a header saying “CBC Explains” while blatantly misrepresenting the facts should shock me, but doesn’t anymore.
Go figure, the government funded “news” agency published a piece in support of government funded industry, that apparently needs to lie to make its point.
There’s so much pro-public healthcare propaganda shoved down our throats.
People are dying on the floor of emergency rooms. The system is broken, and throwing more money at it for the government to keep wasting isn’t a solution.
I’m not saying the US model is the answer. Clearly it isn’t. But everyone gets hysterical and acts like that’s the only option. there are MANY other countries that have a public private hybrid model of healthcare with far superior outcomes. We can start there for examples.
They've been cutting money and half-assing everything for decades and the reckoning of those decisions is now at-hand.
But somehow this is because we won't privatize healthcare.
Check the provincial auditors published reports. Most provinces have not cut budgets at all. I am not aware of any cut to overall health spending in Ontario since Wynne.
This myth needs to die. Since Ford was elected:
* [Population](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710000901&cubeTimeFrame.startMonth=04&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2018&cubeTimeFrame.endMonth=07&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2022&referencePeriods=20180401%2C20220701) since Ford was elected: **+6.1%**
* [Inflation](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=1810000401) since Ford was elected: **+14.7%**
* Healthcare spending since Ford was elected: **+27.6%** (from [$59.3B](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/EBO-fall-18#Spending%20Outlook) to [$75.6B](https://www.fao-on.org/web/default/files/publications/FA2205%20Expenditure%20Monitor%202022-23%20Q2/Expenditure%20Monitor%202022-23%20Q2-EN.pdf))
Healthcare spending increases under Ford have surpassed the combination of inflation and population growth. Ontario isn't special... healthcare systems everywhere are under strain right now.
[Nurses employed in Ontario](https://web.archive.org/web/20220106142434/https://www.cno.org/globalassets/2-howweprotectthepublic/statistical-reports/membership-statistics-report-2021-final.html) between 2017-2021: **+8.1%**
nitpick: a "myth" is an innocent misconception about some largely irrelevant thing that sounds plausible on paper and so gets picked up and passed around as a fun fact. Like "Did you know that blue whales never have identical twins because the female's egg had a hardened shell that prevents the initial embryonic split that is needed for twins to happen?"
What you're debunking is a deliberate and malicious lie spread by evil people with a political agenda.
I think most people repeating it genuinely believe it to be true, and for a brief time it was.
I don't recall the exact numbers, but in the first budget, the increase in healthcare spending was a *hair* under inflation. Someone labeled that a cut, then from there the going myth was "Ford is cutting healthcare", with the severity ranging from sub-inflation increases to vicious nominal cuts.
Appreciate you getting to this before I did.
The FAO reports are public, people can educate themselves that the previous governments for the last 20 years, outside of election years, only had increases of between 1.5-4%, with an average around 2.7.
The money needs to stop going towards admin and start going towards more (and higher paid) nurses and doctors, and more hospitals (although of late it does seem like a more are being built rn that I knew, just not sure if its enough.
BC is spending over 2 billion on a 500~ bed hospital. Seems a bit much to me but I dont really have a good basis for comparison
No thats about right. Edmonton is supposed to get a new 500 bed hospital that was budgeted at 1.8 billion back about 5 years ago, so itll probably be more like 2 billion. Hospitals are hella expensive
I tried to look at some european countries for external contrast but I had a hard time finding a good example of a recent hospital and its cost. I admittedly didnt look that hard
And that’s the issue. The hybrid model is probably ideal, but many provinces and the feds are at odds.
Feds want to keep the current system and call the shots with the money (which is completely fair), but of course won’t entertain privatization, or keep up funding
And you have provinces like Ontario who are quite obviously trying to push their own privatization agenda, at the expense of the current system and health outcomes of ontarians.
There’s too much be lost politically for either side to cave or compromise in a system that resembles better systems. It’s so cruel and disgusting
I don't believe there is anything wrong with the actual study cited... they just need to say what the study actually says, not omit details, or even straight up lie like they did.
But exactly what is privatized?
Almost every physician in Canada is a private for profit contractor or medical corporation. In every province they can opt out of public insurance since the inception of public Medicare. Outpatient labs and diagnostic clinics are private for profit agencies. Hospitals in some provinces (like Ontario) are run as non-profit corporations at arms length from the actual government. Most long term care is privately delivered (mix of both for profit and non-profit agencies).
We have never had a public system, we’ve had a publicly funded system that is mostly privately delivered.
You answered your own question. And if you didn't know by now, it shows how really obtuse the electorate is
The rest is just conservative talking points that are largely non sequiters.
I’m not a conservative.
I’m stating facts. Every physician you’ve ever seen is very likely to have been an independent for profit contractor or medical corporation.
As long as things remain publicly funded I don’t care where they do your cystoscope or vasectomy.
The better comparison should be a Western European model; closer to where we should be. All are reputed to be lower cost and have better outcomes than our model. No one save Rebel News wants an American system in Canada.
The conservatives want it. They did it with our telecoms. They will take much more cues from our immediate neighbor who we have much more crossover with and are constantly culturally bombarded why.
> The better comparison should be a Western European model; closer to where we should be
I'm of the opinion that thinking we're getting European private healthcare and not American private healthcare is a real pie-in-the-sky idea.
Americans have a multiplayer system, we have a single payer system. In Canada health unsurance is a monopoly run by the government and we enjoy all the power of such to set pricing. The American government does not enjoy this power.
I literally just had a co-worker drive across the states to have minor surgery that he was told that he'd have to wait eight months for and drive four hours to get. He called a hospital in the US and booked for the next day. It cost him $400.00 US.
I'd say that it reduces wait times.
But that is not how you painted the comment.
Here he would had waited but his bill would have been $0 out of pocket nevermind the insurance premiums about to jump lol - an illusion that insurance coverage is free.... the group just pays a little more each time.
It is often cheaper for American to go to a "free stander" for some services and pay entirely out of pocket than to bill their insurance company. Same for drugs.
Funny place.
For emergency care yes. Any non-emergency care out of province is billed directly to the patient. Which is how clinics are able to get around CHA rules against charging insured patients
Okay so your baby is born 23 weeks early and is in the NICU for 37 days. The labour may be over, the delivery may be over, but good luck just ‘going home’ with that baby — you’re looking at likely $25k just to transfer back to Canada.
Not to mention that these clinics and private doctor practices have been by far a better experience for me than any hospital ever has been.
It's almost like the private industry typically does things better and more efficiently than the government.
I'm so sick of this privatization boogeyman. We need health care, and we have a mountain of evidence in Europe that hybrid systems are objectively better **and cheaper.**
You're completely mistaken on why European countries deliver faster health care. It has literally nothing at all to do with more private delivery. They have way more doctors and nurses per capita. Canada's extraordinarily low doctor-to-patient ratio is the reason we struggle, not single payer.
And you didn't read the article, private industry is much, much more expensive.
No, we have a low ratio because each subsequent government has done cuts on cuts, and none of them have been taking any steps to get more doctors trained or to retain the few we have left.
Almost no government I’m aware of for the last decade has made cuts to overall health spending.
The year to year increases may be smaller than needed, but very few actual cuts have been made; I’m aware of none since Wynne in Ontario.
What most people refer to as cuts are allocations between different programs, but the actual overall health budget still increases year to year.
You’re vastly oversimplifying things.
I’ve been in healthcare for 20 years. The current system is unsustainable and massive changes must be made.
Most physicians in Canada are already independent medical corporations or private contractors with a for profit motive. Outpatient diagnostics and laboratory services are all for profit private corporations. Some are publicly traded.
Our entire system since the inception of public Medicare has always been privately delivered / publicly funded. Physicians could always opt out of the public insurance system.
Offering more low-risk procedures may be slightly more expensive long term (using this study data) but also consider that the province doesn’t have to put out their own capital out front to build that capacity. If a group of urologists want to put out the money to put in some procedure rooms for cystoscopes in their office, fucking bless them. Frees up actual hospital resources.
Also, many nurses don’t want to work in the hospital with the bullshit that entails, but would continue to be great surgical nurses that would stay if other avenues are available.
Plus, if the physicians own the practice and can book their own procedures in their own offices, they don’t need to compete for OR space, book around their own schedule and results in a better work life balance.
> They have way more doctors and nurses per capita. Canada's extraordinarily low doctor-to-patient ratio is the reason we struggle, not single payer.
Brain drain. This is due to doctors fleeing Canada to go work in the US, where their private hospitals allow them to make double what they'd make here.
>And you didn't read the article, private industry is much, much more expensive.
I did read the article. I'm saying the article is wrong.
Every doctors clinic you have ever been to is privately owned with the profits going to the shareholders, which are the doctors. Doctors aren't government employees, they're private contractors that bill the provincial insurance programs for their service. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how healthcare works and yet you feel entitled to share your uninformed opinion as if it has merit.
> yet you feel entitled to share your uninformed opinion as if it has merit.
Good thing we have forums on the internet where people can discuss things and learn from each other even if they don’t start off with the same level of understanding. Have any idea where I can find one?
Oh man, too bad people here are too busy making snarky remarks instead of reading the article and following the sources to see that the entire premise of the article is based on borderline misinformation at worst, and utter incompetence at best.
Good for those clinics and good for those people who can afford them. Most doctors I know who work in public health care go to private clinics to care for their own personal health problems.
It seems that people need to read a book by Dr. Danielle Martin called Six Big Ideas.
It’ll kill half the arguments that people have here that privatizing will “save” healthcare.
Taxpayers are paying more for the same surgery by the private clinics.
That’s what folks around here call fiscal conservatism.
I call it helping your buddies get rich on government cash.
You can only deny people access to choice using their own after-tax money for so long before the whole deck of cards collapses. The hospital unions and doctors and nurses love to have compliant patients who can't complain, can't go anywhere else and have no options. That's why they are out in force bombarding the media with scare stories.
What data is this based on? Basically every country with better ranked healthcare than us allows private, and many of them pay less too. Maybe we can look outside of North America for solutions to our healthcare issues.
You might want to pay special attention to the opening line as relates well to your point ..
>'Privatization is such a broad term that it’s basically useless,' says one doctor
Additional details you're looking for are in the article.
Most other countries that do better either pay more or have other circumstances that make healthcare delivery way easier (mostly geography, some cases proximity to the US). Canada is spread out but Germany can be driven across in less than six hours, making each dollar go way farther. I don’t think it would be possible to beat many European countries almost regardless of spending unless remote areas of Canada were depopulated.
Australia is not a bad comparison at it deal with some (though not all) of the structural issues and has two tier, spending fairly similar amounts.
Australia has national pharmacare which slashes overall drug costs, but patients do have a deductible they have to pay. They also have a huge government funded in home assisted care program that Canada doesn’t match, which is a big part of healthcare outcomes.
Private hospitals do coexist with public, private insurance is subsidized (which seems to be a bad use of public money in research) and higher earners are fined if they don’t go private. More private hospitals in a region are associated with poor public hospital service as it sucks up healthcare resources (aka more private hospitals make public wait times worse). Medical services outside of pharma also cost money which hurts the poor.
I think we have a lot to learn from Australia but private isn’t necessarily the biggest takeaway. A different funding structure, better tools to keep people out of hospitals and care homes and more affordable drugs can all help as well.
the size of western europe is literally the size of 2 canadian provinces....size isnt the issue its density and canada doesnt have the same density. germans and most europeans aren the same size as canadians, the extra weight in a distribution leads to increased outliers in the population and those people are most likely to need surgeries that are complex and more time consuming. even when you say mention lost results, in no public system does the provider have a responsibility to you because you cannot just chose to pull funding/payment
more density means more business, more business means less costs, basically its the equivalent to the $1 NYC pizza slice even though NY has a high cost to do business and live
Uzbekistan is paid like most countries, even countries that list "free" healthcare work on a pay for service system
81.6% of Canadians live in urban centers. The density argument has always been a distraction to explain away incompetence. It doesn't matter if the cities are right next to each other like they are in Europe or if they have 100 kilometers between them, the medical facilities cover their immediate area i.e. the cities themselves. The cost of transporting rural patients to the cities is the only difference and that only matters in cases of emergency medicine which is the minority of cases. Nobody is being rushed into the city for an emergency knee surgery due to osteoarthritis. The extra costs are being fielded by the rural patients that have to drive into and stay in the cities for their appointments.
german density is not the same as canadian density ffs, running an urban center with 1million people is going to be most costly per capita than running an urban center with 10 million people in around the same size area
It is one major issue. If Canada wanted to be like Germany we’d have the entire population of the country in southern Ontario. Nothing would be more than a few hours’ drive away. Hospitals can be accessed by huge chunks of the population. Capital is wildly more efficiently deployed. And yes our healthcare system score ranking is very much dinged by having some communities not located near a good hospital.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with my response or the previous user's post. Or even the entire thread in general.
Do you feel important by adding this tidbit of nothing to existence?
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=0278832fd4f6f7b843f194e0e239b951aab523ec
It's still a North American analysis but it is one from within Canada utilizing our current single payer system and current private surgeries would follow the same models of healthcare.
Most countries that have both private and public options for deliervy also have both private and public insurance versus just our single payer set up for basic necessary care like we do. Something many want to keep.
Australia is a common example used to compare Alberta Health Services (AHS) given the unique size and geographical area the health are provider services and broad type of services (there is few NA healthcare providers as large. Australia is often best comparable) Even in Aurtralia, that is a model of private and public insurance provision, it is found that private delivery in the fashion Ont and AB are expanding, may not be the answer. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7294448/
There is a reason educated and informed individuals are argueing these changes are not the answer.
Thos countries also have better public systems in the first place. Which Canadian politician pushing private care is also pushing to vastly improve our public care?
Yes, but it makes the wealthy believe they're gaining an advantage. The rich have an insatiable need to be treated better than the poor, so even if private health care isn't more effective at least it makes them feel better.
Terrible article. Most surgeons are in the operating room doing surgery one day a week, most operating rooms sit empty after 3pm and weekends. Something needs to get done and hospitals themselves are terribly inefficient money pits - kudos to groups trying something different for once
I don't know what hospitals you're visiting, but I'm sitting in a waiting room right now, it's almost 10 pm ... I'm looking at the schedule and my friend is still on the operating table while 3 other people are waiting in line to be taken inside ... But hey, thanks for the insightful commentary on hospital efficiency
Funny how in every other country where they have a public/private system health care works so much better.
But hey, if the CBC says so, it must be true right?
Don’t care about any of that stuff. I care about getting my family members into see the appropriate specialists and have the procedures done when they need to be. In Nova Scotia right now that’s just not possible so if private clinics make it possible I am all for them.
I don’t mind paying and if that reduces wait time for the people who can’t pay, great.
Next election I'm voting NDP. I'm tired of the good cop/bad cop routine the Cons and Liberals play. The Harris Government privatized our energy grid and long-term care facilities and what did the Liberals do? They kept those changes and said, "Hey, we're going green! We're focusing on diversity!" and they made little changes that didn't really change anything.
I don't think Ford will win the next election, but if we vote in the OLP, they will most likely maintain the status quo while virtue signalling to progressives on things that don't interfere with the investor class.
No. It's always no, it'll always be no.
You have two options.
Government money -> Service -> People
Government money -> Private for profit company -> Service -> People.
It's not complicated. Adding another player that's looking to increase costs to make money will NEVER make it cheaper.
Education, healthcare, garbage pick up, highway maintanence. NOTHING is cheaper via private.
The only factors that MIGHT make it cheaper is worse wages via private, less benefits and worker rights, and shortcutting things like equipment quality, training and safety regulations. More than likely however if they do that AND no lower costs and just pocket more money.
The whole concept that privatization is more efficient for vital services is utter bullshit .
You forgot Private money > transaction > people
Your opinion is invalid.
>t's not complicated. Adding another player that's looking to increase costs to make money will NEVER make it cheaper.
Unless you cut out the biggest bureaucratic money-sink that is the government.
I don't understand why anyone would think it would. There is nothing about a privately owned for-profit model that would be inherently cheaper, faster or more efficient with people's money than a publicly owned non-profit model.
If anything it should be inherently worse - there is a greater motivation to cut corners when profits are a concern.
I can think of a few way they would save money:
* non unionized employees
* reduction in administrative bloat
* cutting corners (ie. not stocking infrequently used supplies)
I think that overall, though, it would still cost more due profit being a primary driver. One only needs to look at the for profit long term care facilities in Ontario to see the horrible outcomes cutting corners resulted in during COVID.
- Whether you are working for a private or public does not determine whether you are unionized
- There is nothing inherent to a privately owned for profit organization that would reduce "administrative bloat" when compared to the same public non profit organization.
- I don't think cutting corners is good for us. I want a service that doesn't cut corners.
And where do the rich get an operation if they need one? A few years ago one of the kids hurt in the Humboldt crash went to Philadelphia for treatment. No Canadian hospitals could have provided equivalent treatment?
At this point in time, having seen our public system collapse before our very eyes over decades of mismanagement and neglect, I welcome a private push. Not because I think it will improve things (on the contrary), but because it's something. Anything. At least maybe after the debacle that the coming hybrid system will inevitably prove to be, we will finally agree to rebuild our public system from the ground up and make it less shitty (Copying one that works well would be a good idea).
The health system is just one component of this country that is totally broken btw. The Armed Forces is another, our electoral system is another, and I can keep going. This country is in for a rude awakening.
Pretty idiotic take, if I open a clinic and start taking clients, how does that not reduce wait times? Now we're having the existing number of people receiving care plus the added number at the same time. Run that out for 2+ days and you've had more people serviced in the same time, i.e., reduced wait time.
From experience, we were able to jump the wait times at the cost of our entire savings. It was money or health, and we chose health. We are certainly not wealthy, but I'm glad we had that option. Potentially purchased years of life with that.
Every time I go to a family doctor it feels like a cash grab. "No sir, you have to make another appointment for your back pain. I can only deal with one problem per appointment". Wtf I'm here now and I've got problems that need to be looked at. It's my belief that these doctors are gaining the system and people's health are put in jeopardy.
And yet Conservative premiers at every turn try to push open the option of more private healthcare, as they systematically destroy what used to be a very strong public system. How anyone can support private healthcare is beyond me. Just look over the border to the US. Is that what you want?
If it is, guess what?
The US and it’s insane profit-driven healthcare system is right there, ready to take your hard earned dollars. You already have that system available to you if you want. Stop trying to ruin healthcare for the rest of us.
Yes, I know Dougie and whatever UCP stooge is in charge on that particular day, won’t be able to keep their promises to their business buddies who want to profit off the situation…. and that’s sad! But, that’s a sacrifice I think they should be willing to make.
They can and do but it depends.
It is currently illegal for me to purchase a private insurance policy for medically necessary care in canada. That is fucking wrong. The people shitting on Ford would rather scream about profits and capitalism then give me a choice.
More doctors/Nurses aren't going to appear out of nowhere...
No. They are trained. And the ones we train tend to leave the province because we overwork and underpay them and they can't even strike. And then we also lay off the ones we do hire. At least nurses. For doctors we simply don't train enough. They are arbitrarily gatekept.
Current government of Ontario committed to two new med schools; and the learn and stay grant covers nursing in exchange for a commitment to stay in the province. It’ll be a couple years but it’s something at least.
"People dont quit jobs, they quit bosses" What happens when your boss is Doug Ford?
What does this have to do with the article? What are you trying to say?
it won't reduce wait times because the amount of people working will remain the same.
Actually if people can set up shop it might encourage more health practitioners to come here or train here. Ford did good. What we need to do is offer private delivery.
But they do line the pockets of the premiers friends !
Whaaaaaaaa???? Anyway, look over there guys, it’s aliens!!!!
No no, its China. Look at China
Are you trying to downplay China's interference in our election and our PM's attempt to cover it up?
No more than I would downplay Russias involvement in the freedom convoy and right wing alternative news
Which was investigated in a public inquiry, how ironic.
Ok first of all, even if the Russians were involved in the freedom convoy (which there is no evidence) do you not see the difference between a foreign government being involved in a *protest* vs a foreign government meddling in an *election*?
You think the American government has no part in our elections or funding of MPs or any other government for that matter... get a grip its world politics. It's a big ol red herring is what it is. I wouldn't even doubt if the liberals themselves drummed it up to bring attention away from something else.
>You think the American government has no part in our elections or funding of MPs or any other government for that matter... get a grip its world politics. Provide one example, a credible written report about the US government meddling in Canadian elections. No, not a report about supposed US right wing funding of the convoy protests, the Federal election. No, not some crack pot theory you just came up with neither. One credible report of the US government interfering in Canadian elections.
What a terrible article. Just looking at the first claim shows a wild amount of disinformation: > For example, data obtained from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) shows that knee replacement surgery in a public hospital, paid by the province, costs about $10,000. The same surgery in a private clinic can reportedly cost patients up to $28,000. If you read carefully and follow the links to those sources you see that: * the public figure is for **just knee surgeries**, while the private figure is describing **both knee and hip surgeries**, with hip surgeries being more expensive (a public healthcare 75th percentile cost-wise hip replacement is $23,201, which is the closest thing to a fair comparison that we can find) * the public figure is an **average**, while the private figure is the **maximum** * the private figure is obviously covers all costs because the clinic has to bake that all in to the price, while the public figure **excludes land, buildings, and buildings services costs**, as well as atypical cases CBC was either being unacceptably dishonest or unacceptably incompetent with this.
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>These journalists are either malicious or maliciously incompetent, there is no other excuse. Conflict of interest. A broadcasting service that gets money from the government will find it challenging to talk about privatization.
>CBC was either being unacceptably dishonest or unacceptably incompetent with this. A four-year degree in journalism probably doesn't even make the student take an intro class in statistics. What's the goal of journalism? It's to get clicks and drive political agendas. If you want to uncover the truth, you either go into the sciences or law.
The gull of these people to use a header saying “CBC Explains” while blatantly misrepresenting the facts should shock me, but doesn’t anymore. Go figure, the government funded “news” agency published a piece in support of government funded industry, that apparently needs to lie to make its point.
There’s so much pro-public healthcare propaganda shoved down our throats. People are dying on the floor of emergency rooms. The system is broken, and throwing more money at it for the government to keep wasting isn’t a solution. I’m not saying the US model is the answer. Clearly it isn’t. But everyone gets hysterical and acts like that’s the only option. there are MANY other countries that have a public private hybrid model of healthcare with far superior outcomes. We can start there for examples.
Taiwan is good to look at. But I think the provinces and federal health minister really need to work more closely.
People are dying on emergency room floors because the provincial governments keep cutting funding.
They've been cutting money and half-assing everything for decades and the reckoning of those decisions is now at-hand. But somehow this is because we won't privatize healthcare.
Check the provincial auditors published reports. Most provinces have not cut budgets at all. I am not aware of any cut to overall health spending in Ontario since Wynne.
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This myth needs to die. Since Ford was elected: * [Population](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710000901&cubeTimeFrame.startMonth=04&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2018&cubeTimeFrame.endMonth=07&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2022&referencePeriods=20180401%2C20220701) since Ford was elected: **+6.1%** * [Inflation](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=1810000401) since Ford was elected: **+14.7%** * Healthcare spending since Ford was elected: **+27.6%** (from [$59.3B](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/EBO-fall-18#Spending%20Outlook) to [$75.6B](https://www.fao-on.org/web/default/files/publications/FA2205%20Expenditure%20Monitor%202022-23%20Q2/Expenditure%20Monitor%202022-23%20Q2-EN.pdf)) Healthcare spending increases under Ford have surpassed the combination of inflation and population growth. Ontario isn't special... healthcare systems everywhere are under strain right now. [Nurses employed in Ontario](https://web.archive.org/web/20220106142434/https://www.cno.org/globalassets/2-howweprotectthepublic/statistical-reports/membership-statistics-report-2021-final.html) between 2017-2021: **+8.1%**
nitpick: a "myth" is an innocent misconception about some largely irrelevant thing that sounds plausible on paper and so gets picked up and passed around as a fun fact. Like "Did you know that blue whales never have identical twins because the female's egg had a hardened shell that prevents the initial embryonic split that is needed for twins to happen?" What you're debunking is a deliberate and malicious lie spread by evil people with a political agenda.
I think most people repeating it genuinely believe it to be true, and for a brief time it was. I don't recall the exact numbers, but in the first budget, the increase in healthcare spending was a *hair* under inflation. Someone labeled that a cut, then from there the going myth was "Ford is cutting healthcare", with the severity ranging from sub-inflation increases to vicious nominal cuts.
Appreciate you getting to this before I did. The FAO reports are public, people can educate themselves that the previous governments for the last 20 years, outside of election years, only had increases of between 1.5-4%, with an average around 2.7.
The money needs to stop going towards admin and start going towards more (and higher paid) nurses and doctors, and more hospitals (although of late it does seem like a more are being built rn that I knew, just not sure if its enough. BC is spending over 2 billion on a 500~ bed hospital. Seems a bit much to me but I dont really have a good basis for comparison
No thats about right. Edmonton is supposed to get a new 500 bed hospital that was budgeted at 1.8 billion back about 5 years ago, so itll probably be more like 2 billion. Hospitals are hella expensive
I tried to look at some european countries for external contrast but I had a hard time finding a good example of a recent hospital and its cost. I admittedly didnt look that hard
Who's dying on emerge floors? Sorry??
https://globalnews.ca/news/9503133/allison-holthoff-ns-health-lawsuit/amp/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/preview-of-coming-attractions-canadians-keep-dying-in-ers/wcm/7c1dbff1-dc20-4bf1-8252-a6dc6ab59897/amp/
And that’s the issue. The hybrid model is probably ideal, but many provinces and the feds are at odds. Feds want to keep the current system and call the shots with the money (which is completely fair), but of course won’t entertain privatization, or keep up funding And you have provinces like Ontario who are quite obviously trying to push their own privatization agenda, at the expense of the current system and health outcomes of ontarians. There’s too much be lost politically for either side to cave or compromise in a system that resembles better systems. It’s so cruel and disgusting
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The Canada Health Act? The fact that they are funding the provinces ?
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Find someone else to yell at, I don’t work for the gov’t
Great more great work from fox ne… I mean CBC.
Perhaps you can cite better quality studies?
I don't believe there is anything wrong with the actual study cited... they just need to say what the study actually says, not omit details, or even straight up lie like they did.
Fair enough and kudos for a good critique. But that leaves us back at square 1--is privatization the answer?
A mix of the two, absolutely
But exactly what is privatized? Almost every physician in Canada is a private for profit contractor or medical corporation. In every province they can opt out of public insurance since the inception of public Medicare. Outpatient labs and diagnostic clinics are private for profit agencies. Hospitals in some provinces (like Ontario) are run as non-profit corporations at arms length from the actual government. Most long term care is privately delivered (mix of both for profit and non-profit agencies). We have never had a public system, we’ve had a publicly funded system that is mostly privately delivered.
You answered your own question. And if you didn't know by now, it shows how really obtuse the electorate is The rest is just conservative talking points that are largely non sequiters.
I’m not a conservative. I’m stating facts. Every physician you’ve ever seen is very likely to have been an independent for profit contractor or medical corporation. As long as things remain publicly funded I don’t care where they do your cystoscope or vasectomy.
BFD. So what? If doctors are private, why are they essentially unionized?
Bingo
The “journalists” at the CBC are driven by ideology, not truth. They must have collectively skipped ethics class at j-school.
Probably a difference in taxation as well.
Ask the americans, they put in the most public dollars I believe into a mostly private model
The better comparison should be a Western European model; closer to where we should be. All are reputed to be lower cost and have better outcomes than our model. No one save Rebel News wants an American system in Canada.
That is the thing though, if we make a change, my money would bet that it falls towards American style not Western Europe style healthcare.
That’s fair, but I’m convinced it would not. Too radical a change and let’s face it, Canadians are incredibly conservative/risk-adverse.
Doug Ford doesn't look to heavily taxed European social democracies with robust social safety nets for inspiration, I can tell you that for free.
The conservatives want it. They did it with our telecoms. They will take much more cues from our immediate neighbor who we have much more crossover with and are constantly culturally bombarded why.
> The better comparison should be a Western European model; closer to where we should be I'm of the opinion that thinking we're getting European private healthcare and not American private healthcare is a real pie-in-the-sky idea.
Americans have a multiplayer system, we have a single payer system. In Canada health unsurance is a monopoly run by the government and we enjoy all the power of such to set pricing. The American government does not enjoy this power.
Where is the quality of care better for the average citizen?
I literally just had a co-worker drive across the states to have minor surgery that he was told that he'd have to wait eight months for and drive four hours to get. He called a hospital in the US and booked for the next day. It cost him $400.00 US. I'd say that it reduces wait times.
$400!? Was it in the back of a 7/11??? Im not sure that isnt missing a few zeroes as that doesnt even cover consult….
I haven’t seen the bill yet, but there is a big difference between out of pocket and insurance bills.
But that is not how you painted the comment. Here he would had waited but his bill would have been $0 out of pocket nevermind the insurance premiums about to jump lol - an illusion that insurance coverage is free.... the group just pays a little more each time.
That was $400 bucks. No insurance. In the US, if you don’t have insurance, it’s much cheaper than if you do.
Yep, insurance billed $13,000 for a CT Abdomen + Pelvis versus $375 cash. It’s all a racket.
It is often cheaper for American to go to a "free stander" for some services and pay entirely out of pocket than to bill their insurance company. Same for drugs. Funny place.
Gotta love these anecdotes lol. I have a friend... who just experienced the ideal scenario to prove my point!!!
Believe what you want. I don’t care. We’re being ripped off, but you do you.
Wait until the next person needs a $250,000 surgery
Wait here. See how long it takes.
My mom got sick while visiting Texas. 3 days in the hospital. $250,000 bill.
Did she have travel insurance? You know, if your mom was out-of-province, she'd have been on the hook for the hospital bill as well.
Yup, they always get travel insurance. Insurance company refused to pay. They cited pre existing conditions
This is a common issue in life insurance. The old..."oh you paid for 20 years but were never actually covered, whoopsie."
This isn't common at all. You just don't hear about the 99 times its hassle free - you only hear about the 1 where it isn't covered.
This isn't true. The province will pay what they would pay to their own doctors. Only the difference would be charged to the patient.
For emergency care yes. Any non-emergency care out of province is billed directly to the patient. Which is how clinics are able to get around CHA rules against charging insured patients
If it isn't emergency, then just go home....
Okay so your baby is born 23 weeks early and is in the NICU for 37 days. The labour may be over, the delivery may be over, but good luck just ‘going home’ with that baby — you’re looking at likely $25k just to transfer back to Canada.
What kind of drugs are you on. No, if you're a Canadian and you get hurt anywhere in Canada your covered.
"Just trust me."
Eh, if I'm wrong then I'll sick your dick.
All clinics are private and for profit as are all doctors. Canada has a single payer system not a single delivery one.
Not to mention that these clinics and private doctor practices have been by far a better experience for me than any hospital ever has been. It's almost like the private industry typically does things better and more efficiently than the government. I'm so sick of this privatization boogeyman. We need health care, and we have a mountain of evidence in Europe that hybrid systems are objectively better **and cheaper.**
You're completely mistaken on why European countries deliver faster health care. It has literally nothing at all to do with more private delivery. They have way more doctors and nurses per capita. Canada's extraordinarily low doctor-to-patient ratio is the reason we struggle, not single payer. And you didn't read the article, private industry is much, much more expensive.
But we have a low doctor-to-patient ratio at least partially because there's no private healthcare so the government has monopsony power
No, we have a low ratio because each subsequent government has done cuts on cuts, and none of them have been taking any steps to get more doctors trained or to retain the few we have left.
Almost no government I’m aware of for the last decade has made cuts to overall health spending. The year to year increases may be smaller than needed, but very few actual cuts have been made; I’m aware of none since Wynne in Ontario. What most people refer to as cuts are allocations between different programs, but the actual overall health budget still increases year to year.
Plenty of Canadian-trained nurses and doctors have gone south for more money.
You’re vastly oversimplifying things. I’ve been in healthcare for 20 years. The current system is unsustainable and massive changes must be made. Most physicians in Canada are already independent medical corporations or private contractors with a for profit motive. Outpatient diagnostics and laboratory services are all for profit private corporations. Some are publicly traded. Our entire system since the inception of public Medicare has always been privately delivered / publicly funded. Physicians could always opt out of the public insurance system. Offering more low-risk procedures may be slightly more expensive long term (using this study data) but also consider that the province doesn’t have to put out their own capital out front to build that capacity. If a group of urologists want to put out the money to put in some procedure rooms for cystoscopes in their office, fucking bless them. Frees up actual hospital resources. Also, many nurses don’t want to work in the hospital with the bullshit that entails, but would continue to be great surgical nurses that would stay if other avenues are available. Plus, if the physicians own the practice and can book their own procedures in their own offices, they don’t need to compete for OR space, book around their own schedule and results in a better work life balance.
> They have way more doctors and nurses per capita. Canada's extraordinarily low doctor-to-patient ratio is the reason we struggle, not single payer. Brain drain. This is due to doctors fleeing Canada to go work in the US, where their private hospitals allow them to make double what they'd make here. >And you didn't read the article, private industry is much, much more expensive. I did read the article. I'm saying the article is wrong.
Exactly. Why everyone screams about the US model is beyond me. Look to Europe.
Duh. Of course they don't save money when they introduce more overhead and introduce the desire for profit
Jesus christ. You think for profit will meet demand? You don’t inflate prices by meeting demand.
For Gods sake, think of the rich folks!
Can't rich people just go to the US??
The private clinics directly invoice the gov for services rendered.
Two words. FOR PROFIT.
Ie. Care Point in BC is a private clinic and anyone with a bc medical card can go there for “free”. Without a card you pay out of pocket.
Yeah, and the same service could be provided by the government without the extra shareholders siphoning profit out of the equation.
You misunderstand Canadian healthcare
Every doctors clinic you have ever been to is privately owned with the profits going to the shareholders, which are the doctors. Doctors aren't government employees, they're private contractors that bill the provincial insurance programs for their service. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how healthcare works and yet you feel entitled to share your uninformed opinion as if it has merit.
> yet you feel entitled to share your uninformed opinion as if it has merit. Good thing we have forums on the internet where people can discuss things and learn from each other even if they don’t start off with the same level of understanding. Have any idea where I can find one?
You are the problem
What do you mean
The misunderstanding of how health care works in Canada. Regardless of our opinion, we need to at least describe the system we have properly.
Oh man, too bad people here are too busy making snarky remarks instead of reading the article and following the sources to see that the entire premise of the article is based on borderline misinformation at worst, and utter incompetence at best.
Nice try. The article is fine. Source: I read it.
Now look at how the source they used compared the cost of the clinics and procedures.
Follow the sources and information the article is a lie and your helping the bullshit
It's not supposed to, it's just supposed to increase profits
Good for those clinics and good for those people who can afford them. Most doctors I know who work in public health care go to private clinics to care for their own personal health problems.
It seems that people need to read a book by Dr. Danielle Martin called Six Big Ideas. It’ll kill half the arguments that people have here that privatizing will “save” healthcare.
Taxpayers are paying more for the same surgery by the private clinics. That’s what folks around here call fiscal conservatism. I call it helping your buddies get rich on government cash.
You can only deny people access to choice using their own after-tax money for so long before the whole deck of cards collapses. The hospital unions and doctors and nurses love to have compliant patients who can't complain, can't go anywhere else and have no options. That's why they are out in force bombarding the media with scare stories.
Cute story buddy.
If you ever need an appointment in Canada you would know it's not cute
I've been spending quite a bit of time in hospitals in the last few years, and although the system is great, it's not perfect.
What data is this based on? Basically every country with better ranked healthcare than us allows private, and many of them pay less too. Maybe we can look outside of North America for solutions to our healthcare issues.
You might want to pay special attention to the opening line as relates well to your point .. >'Privatization is such a broad term that it’s basically useless,' says one doctor Additional details you're looking for are in the article.
Most other countries that do better either pay more or have other circumstances that make healthcare delivery way easier (mostly geography, some cases proximity to the US). Canada is spread out but Germany can be driven across in less than six hours, making each dollar go way farther. I don’t think it would be possible to beat many European countries almost regardless of spending unless remote areas of Canada were depopulated. Australia is not a bad comparison at it deal with some (though not all) of the structural issues and has two tier, spending fairly similar amounts. Australia has national pharmacare which slashes overall drug costs, but patients do have a deductible they have to pay. They also have a huge government funded in home assisted care program that Canada doesn’t match, which is a big part of healthcare outcomes. Private hospitals do coexist with public, private insurance is subsidized (which seems to be a bad use of public money in research) and higher earners are fined if they don’t go private. More private hospitals in a region are associated with poor public hospital service as it sucks up healthcare resources (aka more private hospitals make public wait times worse). Medical services outside of pharma also cost money which hurts the poor. I think we have a lot to learn from Australia but private isn’t necessarily the biggest takeaway. A different funding structure, better tools to keep people out of hospitals and care homes and more affordable drugs can all help as well.
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the size of western europe is literally the size of 2 canadian provinces....size isnt the issue its density and canada doesnt have the same density. germans and most europeans aren the same size as canadians, the extra weight in a distribution leads to increased outliers in the population and those people are most likely to need surgeries that are complex and more time consuming. even when you say mention lost results, in no public system does the provider have a responsibility to you because you cannot just chose to pull funding/payment more density means more business, more business means less costs, basically its the equivalent to the $1 NYC pizza slice even though NY has a high cost to do business and live Uzbekistan is paid like most countries, even countries that list "free" healthcare work on a pay for service system
81.6% of Canadians live in urban centers. The density argument has always been a distraction to explain away incompetence. It doesn't matter if the cities are right next to each other like they are in Europe or if they have 100 kilometers between them, the medical facilities cover their immediate area i.e. the cities themselves. The cost of transporting rural patients to the cities is the only difference and that only matters in cases of emergency medicine which is the minority of cases. Nobody is being rushed into the city for an emergency knee surgery due to osteoarthritis. The extra costs are being fielded by the rural patients that have to drive into and stay in the cities for their appointments.
german density is not the same as canadian density ffs, running an urban center with 1million people is going to be most costly per capita than running an urban center with 10 million people in around the same size area
It is one major issue. If Canada wanted to be like Germany we’d have the entire population of the country in southern Ontario. Nothing would be more than a few hours’ drive away. Hospitals can be accessed by huge chunks of the population. Capital is wildly more efficiently deployed. And yes our healthcare system score ranking is very much dinged by having some communities not located near a good hospital.
The last part of the article actually compares outcomes with other countries, specifically the US and UK.
I know we like to think of the "west" I.e. the UK and the US as the rest of the world, but it simply is not.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with my response or the previous user's post. Or even the entire thread in general. Do you feel important by adding this tidbit of nothing to existence?
"Well, ahkchually..."
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=0278832fd4f6f7b843f194e0e239b951aab523ec It's still a North American analysis but it is one from within Canada utilizing our current single payer system and current private surgeries would follow the same models of healthcare. Most countries that have both private and public options for deliervy also have both private and public insurance versus just our single payer set up for basic necessary care like we do. Something many want to keep. Australia is a common example used to compare Alberta Health Services (AHS) given the unique size and geographical area the health are provider services and broad type of services (there is few NA healthcare providers as large. Australia is often best comparable) Even in Aurtralia, that is a model of private and public insurance provision, it is found that private delivery in the fashion Ont and AB are expanding, may not be the answer. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7294448/ There is a reason educated and informed individuals are argueing these changes are not the answer.
Thos countries also have better public systems in the first place. Which Canadian politician pushing private care is also pushing to vastly improve our public care?
Yes but they are not for profit...big difference.
read the article
They briefly talk about the US and UK. There is a lot more to the world than that, and frankly I don’t care for your anglo-centric worldview.
What? The article is fine and you are straw manning.
The cherry picked data says no.
Yes, but it makes the wealthy believe they're gaining an advantage. The rich have an insatiable need to be treated better than the poor, so even if private health care isn't more effective at least it makes them feel better.
Classic class war thinking
Terrible article. Most surgeons are in the operating room doing surgery one day a week, most operating rooms sit empty after 3pm and weekends. Something needs to get done and hospitals themselves are terribly inefficient money pits - kudos to groups trying something different for once
I don't know what hospitals you're visiting, but I'm sitting in a waiting room right now, it's almost 10 pm ... I'm looking at the schedule and my friend is still on the operating table while 3 other people are waiting in line to be taken inside ... But hey, thanks for the insightful commentary on hospital efficiency
Funny how in every other country where they have a public/private system health care works so much better. But hey, if the CBC says so, it must be true right?
They are experts. Unbiased. Trusted. From Ottawa
I can't speak for anyone else but my issue is that I don't believe for a second that we'll stop at a European model.
Much better to keep tilting at the windmill thought, right?
Shocking
Needed a simple operation. 2 year wait. Did it within a month for $300 privately. Canadian Healthcare is a joke.
Your line was shorter because it excludes people, not because it's a better overall system.
How many people are excluded by a $300 price tag?
Best to exclude everyone. Healthcare for none.
Don’t care about any of that stuff. I care about getting my family members into see the appropriate specialists and have the procedures done when they need to be. In Nova Scotia right now that’s just not possible so if private clinics make it possible I am all for them. I don’t mind paying and if that reduces wait time for the people who can’t pay, great.
Next election I'm voting NDP. I'm tired of the good cop/bad cop routine the Cons and Liberals play. The Harris Government privatized our energy grid and long-term care facilities and what did the Liberals do? They kept those changes and said, "Hey, we're going green! We're focusing on diversity!" and they made little changes that didn't really change anything. I don't think Ford will win the next election, but if we vote in the OLP, they will most likely maintain the status quo while virtue signalling to progressives on things that don't interfere with the investor class.
No. It's always no, it'll always be no. You have two options. Government money -> Service -> People Government money -> Private for profit company -> Service -> People. It's not complicated. Adding another player that's looking to increase costs to make money will NEVER make it cheaper. Education, healthcare, garbage pick up, highway maintanence. NOTHING is cheaper via private. The only factors that MIGHT make it cheaper is worse wages via private, less benefits and worker rights, and shortcutting things like equipment quality, training and safety regulations. More than likely however if they do that AND no lower costs and just pocket more money. The whole concept that privatization is more efficient for vital services is utter bullshit .
How come Transmountain is well over 5x the cost of a typical pipeline project? Why is this the same for every government project ever?
You forgot Private money > transaction > people Your opinion is invalid. >t's not complicated. Adding another player that's looking to increase costs to make money will NEVER make it cheaper. Unless you cut out the biggest bureaucratic money-sink that is the government.
Well, it does.... if you have the money.
I don't understand why anyone would think it would. There is nothing about a privately owned for-profit model that would be inherently cheaper, faster or more efficient with people's money than a publicly owned non-profit model. If anything it should be inherently worse - there is a greater motivation to cut corners when profits are a concern.
I can think of a few way they would save money: * non unionized employees * reduction in administrative bloat * cutting corners (ie. not stocking infrequently used supplies) I think that overall, though, it would still cost more due profit being a primary driver. One only needs to look at the for profit long term care facilities in Ontario to see the horrible outcomes cutting corners resulted in during COVID.
- Whether you are working for a private or public does not determine whether you are unionized - There is nothing inherent to a privately owned for profit organization that would reduce "administrative bloat" when compared to the same public non profit organization. - I don't think cutting corners is good for us. I want a service that doesn't cut corners.
ok thanks
Incorrect! They reduce wait times for rich people.
I won't bother reading the CBC anymore. I find their selective data reporting and reliance on obscure "experts" off putting.
Yeah but they make the rich richer! Gotta keep stealing our hard work to keep the rich in ever-more profits!
The rich always get richer. It sucks
And where do the rich get an operation if they need one? A few years ago one of the kids hurt in the Humboldt crash went to Philadelphia for treatment. No Canadian hospitals could have provided equivalent treatment?
says the cbc
Says the man who didn't read the article.
At this point in time, having seen our public system collapse before our very eyes over decades of mismanagement and neglect, I welcome a private push. Not because I think it will improve things (on the contrary), but because it's something. Anything. At least maybe after the debacle that the coming hybrid system will inevitably prove to be, we will finally agree to rebuild our public system from the ground up and make it less shitty (Copying one that works well would be a good idea). The health system is just one component of this country that is totally broken btw. The Armed Forces is another, our electoral system is another, and I can keep going. This country is in for a rude awakening.
We already knew this. Doug ford is a criminal
More fearmongering about health care from the CBC.
This data is brought to you by a crown corporation and delivered via state owned media.
Looking forward to seeing your sources and data.
So you're saying splitting the system into two will actually cost more? And with privatization, there is an opportunity to make more profits. Wow! 😱
Pretty idiotic take, if I open a clinic and start taking clients, how does that not reduce wait times? Now we're having the existing number of people receiving care plus the added number at the same time. Run that out for 2+ days and you've had more people serviced in the same time, i.e., reduced wait time.
From experience, we were able to jump the wait times at the cost of our entire savings. It was money or health, and we chose health. We are certainly not wealthy, but I'm glad we had that option. Potentially purchased years of life with that.
Well there you have it. Data is a bitch.
For profit is usually a clue.
Every time I go to a family doctor it feels like a cash grab. "No sir, you have to make another appointment for your back pain. I can only deal with one problem per appointment". Wtf I'm here now and I've got problems that need to be looked at. It's my belief that these doctors are gaining the system and people's health are put in jeopardy.
They have 5 minutes with you and it's done
And yet Conservative premiers at every turn try to push open the option of more private healthcare, as they systematically destroy what used to be a very strong public system. How anyone can support private healthcare is beyond me. Just look over the border to the US. Is that what you want? If it is, guess what? The US and it’s insane profit-driven healthcare system is right there, ready to take your hard earned dollars. You already have that system available to you if you want. Stop trying to ruin healthcare for the rest of us. Yes, I know Dougie and whatever UCP stooge is in charge on that particular day, won’t be able to keep their promises to their business buddies who want to profit off the situation…. and that’s sad! But, that’s a sacrifice I think they should be willing to make.
They can and do but it depends. It is currently illegal for me to purchase a private insurance policy for medically necessary care in canada. That is fucking wrong. The people shitting on Ford would rather scream about profits and capitalism then give me a choice.