Iroh lost a son.
Carl lost a wife he spent his whole life with.
A friend of mine once said, a parent should never have to bury their child.
Yeah as an invading force, Iroh's son may have done some things but that actually adds to the tragedy tbh. Iroh lives with the guilt of not only losing his son, but for letting him commit (ALLEGED) atrocities.
I def cried to Up but that was because of how it was shot and shown. Iroh losing a son tho is still kinda objectively sadder.
Up, hands down. Just a cute couple dealing with death and tragic loss.
I love Iroh, but his son was a soldier in an invading army. It sucks because we see Iroh mourn his child, but we didn't see how much death that soldier inflicted on the earth kingdom while he was alive.
The show came out and ended before i was born ( it ended july 2008 i was born october 2008 ) i havent had a chance to watch it yet idk why i was downvoted tho
Iroh's son wasn't THE victim of the war, but Iroh felt responsible not only for those he and his countrymen committed atrocities against, but his own son too for allowing and maybe encouraging him to fight the war that would have gotten him killed after others.
Like yeah MAYBE we should mourn those they hurt but... that's kinda not what the story's about.
Sure, but let's put it in real world terms. Let's say a universally beloved person, like Keanu Reeves, and his son joined the Russian army and took part in the invasion of Ukraine. I would shed zero tears if his kid died and he went viral singing a sad song about his son.
No, it really was mediocre. It shoehorned in a villain in Munz when it was really a story about overcoming grief. A far better use of Munz would have been using him as a metaphor for Carl processing his need to keep exploring living life after rekindling the spirit of Munz that inspired his wife and himself.
How was he shoehorned in? They did a pretty good job setting him up to be a villain at the beginning of the film by having him essentially be accused of lying about his discovery. Of course, he'd be bitter and try to prove everyone wrong.
I understand the motivation to make him an antagonist, but not a mustache twirling insane villain. I guess I wanted a more sympathetic take on him because the story was really not about a typical good guy versus bad guy story. The antagonist, that is, the force that operates against the protagonist Carl Fredrickson, was psychological and emotional.
I felt like it cheapened His struggle to turn his hero into a caricature instead of simply someone who is bitter
I personally see a parallel between Carl and Muntz, with Carl learning to let go of the past and Muntz letting his past drive him insane. I do like your idea of having Muntz be the catalyst to respark Carl's adventurous spirit though!
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Because he did kinda help Carl and Ellie bond with each other, and it is disheartening to see him become a villain. I agree with what the other user in this thread, tho. I think it shows how Carl manages move on while Munz doesn't.
My great grandma ( who's still alive ) outlived her daughter ( my grandma who died in 2011) i never met my grandma but i'm sure she was nice and i can't help but feel bad for my nana ( great grandma )
I know bro i made the mistake of looking it up on youtube about 50 minutes ago cus i had never watched avatar and wanted to see what the song was about and i've been crying ever since
My issue with Up is that if Carl and Ellie wanted a family, they could have adopted. They didn't have to give up on that dream and live alone all those years.
Up. Up *always* makes me cry. It's so real.
(Disclaimwr I'm high rn and I tend to ramble)
Like even tho Ellie and Carl are happy and enjoy their life together, it isn't perfect. It's laced, fraught, steeped in the tragic. Ellie has a miscarriage and is incapable of ever having baby again. Ellie and Carl decorating a child's room that could never be used hole-punched my soul.
Moving on, we see them grow through their grief with their old childhood dream of going, with their clubhouse-now-home, to Paradise Falls. They make a savings bank, much like I'm sure many of us have. But the accidents, the surprises, *life* just gets in the way, and they have to break into their savings to get by. They make enough to be happy, comfortable, but not enough to save for their dream.
Time passes by and they grow old, wrinkled, grey in the mane. They age, but their love for one another stays the same. They are just as in love with one another now as they were way back then. It's at this stage in their lives that Carl remembers their old dream. Now he reckons that in their retirement, they can afford the time and money to go see the Falls. He plans a picnic in their favorite spot, and he beckons his dear wife up the hill, so giddy to show her the Falls and breathe the South American air with her, at last. But she never makes it up that hill.
Now at last, Carl is with her in the hospital. Ellie is ill, and Carl must use this time to prepare to say goodbye. But it's *never. enough. time.* They put on a brave face for one another, and Ellie finally passes on her Adventure Book, an explorer's most precious possession, to her lifelong companion. They share a last embrace, and she's gone. The last shot we see of their life together, is a broken Carl sitting for the first time in decades, alone, at the very altar he was married on so many years before.
It's so- i- look Iroh mourning his son is sad, but without knowing him, it feels tragic, but we weren't there with him when he was this boy's father. We didn't see the boy who lived, so we're mourning someone with Iroh thst we do not know. After the Ip intro tho? I know who Ellie was. A very large part of me wants a spinoff series with Ellie and Carl during their marriage. And that right there means I feel exactly like Carl: "If I could only have just a little more time to spend with her. We'd go on just one more adventure"
Up I'm my opinion is sadder. Although I think it would be added to lose a child to war than to lose a spouse to age it's different because in up we're seeing the end of the life and we're seeing a man struggling with moving on. In AtlA we're seeing a man mourning a death from years ago after he has already made progress in getting better. It's not something you ever really "get over" but Iroh finds ways to be happy in like 90% of all his scenes even after losing his son. It's all about timing and context I guess. I'd understand if someone disagreed though.
As much as I'm a massive Avatar fan, I think I can objectively say UP was sadder.
In anime-esq shows you *expect* things like this to happen and everything from the very first episode of ATLA showed war, death and loss, so it came as no big shock.
UP is a Disney animated children's movie and you expect it to be happy and colourful the way through, to immediately through you into a death scene, not one set in a fictional world with super powers, but instead of a very real situation that happens to many people, it really throws you off.
Not disagreeing with your answer but death is relitivly common in disney movies ( think something like bambi , mulan , tarzan , beauty and the beast ect ) while most disney deaths take place in wacky cartoony universes ( cars , princess and the frog , finding nemo , the lion king ) to say a death or two is unexpected in a disney movie is a little( i couldnt think of a word to put here so jst fill it in yourself ) although most disney deaths arent as realistic as Ellies death to go into a disney movie and not expect at least 1 death is a little foolish
This, I feel, is a question of age. Up is by far the sadder of the two (to me). As u/ThiccyRicky said beautifully, Up showcases a life of love and tragedy that many can relate to as you get older. Its the beauty of getting to know these two people from their childhood to Ellie's final moments and all the pain and love they experience in between. It's not just Ellie's final moments that hurts - it's the pain and tragedy the two of them endure through their life. Pain that many, many adults can relate and empathize with.
In contrast Iroh lost a son. A son we never meet and never experience time with. Is it sad to see an old man mourn the loss of his son? Absolutely. But we the viewer have the added knowledge of knowing that Iroh and his son were an invading force killing who knows how many people. If perhaps we had a flashback episode about the two and their life, then perhaps I'd be swayed to change my answer. The loss of a loved one is something most people experience within the first decade or so of their lives, and most people can relate to that, but for many it takes the experience of adulthood to relate to Ellie and Carl's struggle.
I cried at only one of these multiple times. I cried at Up the first time I watched it and then the shock sorta fell off. I don’t think I’ve been able to hold back on crying any time I’ve listened to Mako singing Leaves from the Vine. It’s gut wrenching for me in both forms. Both as Iroh and as Mako
How in the BALLS are so many people saying Up? Ellie lived a beautiful life and died of old age. Iroh's son died young and healthy. He had his whole life ahead of him, but he had to fight a war started by his sociopath uncle. And there's no doubt he saw horrible things on that battlefield.
Definitely Up but only because it’s more of a gut punch. Iroh is sad but you’ve had a long time to contemplate his loss. Comments like saying he sees Zuko as a son at the North Pole prepare us for this.
Meanwhile, Pixar lured us in with the biggest emotional whiplash in ten minutes
Up. They made a short film with more tragedy than most drama films.
Iroh morning his son made me cry, but a solider fighting for the bad guys doesn’t strike as tragic compared to an innocent wife dying and a hopeless widower left alone.
Ellie lived a long life and died of old age. Iroh has to deal with the guilt of letting his son fight for the bad guys and do bad things and his death of which he died at a healthy young age
I've honestly never felt anything watching Iroh sing to his son. It's one of those things that I didn't even know people were moved by. When I see Carl and Ellie live their lives I'm just a mess
Gotta say leaves from the vine. No one wants to bury their own child. Also the fact it wsd truly dedicated to the passing of the original voice actor for Iron still hits hard
Up is the sadder scene because we see the entire lives of Carl and Ellie. Her death is relatively expected due to age, but it still hits hard.
The scenario presented in Avatar is sadder since no parent should ever have to bury their child, and Iroh knows he’s directly responsible for Lu Ten’s death. The amount of guilt on top of the grief had to be overwhelming. But we never see the scene of Lu Ten’s death play out nor Iroh’s desperate journey through the Spirit World to try in vain to find his son, only the aftermath 7 years in the future.
> Cymbeline. Long has it covered the graves of my forebears. Now it shall cover the grave of my son. Alas, that these evil days should be mine. The young perish and the old linger. That I should live to see the last days of my house. No parent should have to bury their child.
Theoden, King of Rohan said it best. “No parent should have to bury their child.”
You all seriously think that an old woman dying, who by the way lived a wonderful life full of love, is worse and more painful than a child dying in war?
Wft is wrong with you people?
The child was a colonizer for an invading army, so… he basically deserved to die. If every fire nation soldier had survived the war, then every earth nation citizen would be conquered.
UP
I refuse to shed a tear over Iroh's hypocrisy..he was fine with being a general and trying smoke out the capital until his son died. The additional non story context behind his voice actor recording his lines even though he doesn't have long to live does makes it tragic however
Iroh lost a son. Carl lost a wife he spent his whole life with. A friend of mine once said, a parent should never have to bury their child. Yeah as an invading force, Iroh's son may have done some things but that actually adds to the tragedy tbh. Iroh lives with the guilt of not only losing his son, but for letting him commit (ALLEGED) atrocities. I def cried to Up but that was because of how it was shot and shown. Iroh losing a son tho is still kinda objectively sadder.
Iroh's loss.
Lu ten for sure
Up, hands down. Just a cute couple dealing with death and tragic loss. I love Iroh, but his son was a soldier in an invading army. It sucks because we see Iroh mourn his child, but we didn't see how much death that soldier inflicted on the earth kingdom while he was alive.
I mean imo iroh is sadder than up simply cause that was the last thing the actor recorded before he died (rip Mako)
Actually that's a common misconception. Mako recorded all the way to the end of book 2. You literally just have to check the credits.
There's at least one scene in Tales of Ba Sing Se where you can tell it's Greg Baldwin (when the kids break a window), so he mostly finished Book 2.
Oh my bad i havent watched the show yet
Crazy
The show came out and ended before i was born ( it ended july 2008 i was born october 2008 ) i havent had a chance to watch it yet idk why i was downvoted tho
I think because people assumed if you were posting about it, you’d seen it
While yes i have seen the scene of iroh singing i have not actually watched the show but i do plan to watch it
It's been on Netflix for ages bruh
I don't really use netflix but now ik where to go to watch it so thanks!
Cuz they’re harsh
Apperently
That episode was dedicated in his memory! Mako I'm referring to.
Iroh's son wasn't THE victim of the war, but Iroh felt responsible not only for those he and his countrymen committed atrocities against, but his own son too for allowing and maybe encouraging him to fight the war that would have gotten him killed after others. Like yeah MAYBE we should mourn those they hurt but... that's kinda not what the story's about.
Sure, but let's put it in real world terms. Let's say a universally beloved person, like Keanu Reeves, and his son joined the Russian army and took part in the invasion of Ukraine. I would shed zero tears if his kid died and he went viral singing a sad song about his son.
Up a thousand times over. That intro turned an otherwise mediocre movie into a beloved classic.
Mediocre? Up was a great movie.
No, it really was mediocre. It shoehorned in a villain in Munz when it was really a story about overcoming grief. A far better use of Munz would have been using him as a metaphor for Carl processing his need to keep exploring living life after rekindling the spirit of Munz that inspired his wife and himself.
How was he shoehorned in? They did a pretty good job setting him up to be a villain at the beginning of the film by having him essentially be accused of lying about his discovery. Of course, he'd be bitter and try to prove everyone wrong.
I understand the motivation to make him an antagonist, but not a mustache twirling insane villain. I guess I wanted a more sympathetic take on him because the story was really not about a typical good guy versus bad guy story. The antagonist, that is, the force that operates against the protagonist Carl Fredrickson, was psychological and emotional. I felt like it cheapened His struggle to turn his hero into a caricature instead of simply someone who is bitter
I personally see a parallel between Carl and Muntz, with Carl learning to let go of the past and Muntz letting his past drive him insane. I do like your idea of having Muntz be the catalyst to respark Carl's adventurous spirit though!
That makes sense.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Because he did kinda help Carl and Ellie bond with each other, and it is disheartening to see him become a villain. I agree with what the other user in this thread, tho. I think it shows how Carl manages move on while Munz doesn't.
I cried for both but Iroh losing his son is way sadder.
A parent should never outlive their child. Iroh for sure tore my heart
My great grandma ( who's still alive ) outlived her daughter ( my grandma who died in 2011) i never met my grandma but i'm sure she was nice and i can't help but feel bad for my nana ( great grandma )
Also same thing with my dads grandma his mom died when he was in 4th grade but his grandma is also still alive
Up made me say something like "oh that's sad" but the scene with iroh makes me cry knowing it was the last part of the show Mako did
I know bro i made the mistake of looking it up on youtube about 50 minutes ago cus i had never watched avatar and wanted to see what the song was about and i've been crying ever since
Also the photo of the son in that scene is a drawing of a young mako
Oh well thats a cool fact i'm gonna spend the next 30 minutes crying about😭🥹👍🏾
You're welcome 😎👍
Idk why i'm still listening to it tbh thats prolly why i'm still crying😭
That one episode of angel beats… i went almost a decade without crying but that had me sobbin
My issue with Up is that if Carl and Ellie wanted a family, they could have adopted. They didn't have to give up on that dream and live alone all those years.
Old people dying is kind of expected, no? A parent outliving their child isn't the norm
https://preview.redd.it/0i5733sss49d1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f1ea29de6b7d535cd404d71d84eb08b431e5535 Leaves from the vine
Falling so slow
Iroh’s is sadder, due to the double tragedy Iroh both losing his son, and Iroh failing to save his son from the moral failings of his nation.
Up. Up *always* makes me cry. It's so real. (Disclaimwr I'm high rn and I tend to ramble) Like even tho Ellie and Carl are happy and enjoy their life together, it isn't perfect. It's laced, fraught, steeped in the tragic. Ellie has a miscarriage and is incapable of ever having baby again. Ellie and Carl decorating a child's room that could never be used hole-punched my soul. Moving on, we see them grow through their grief with their old childhood dream of going, with their clubhouse-now-home, to Paradise Falls. They make a savings bank, much like I'm sure many of us have. But the accidents, the surprises, *life* just gets in the way, and they have to break into their savings to get by. They make enough to be happy, comfortable, but not enough to save for their dream. Time passes by and they grow old, wrinkled, grey in the mane. They age, but their love for one another stays the same. They are just as in love with one another now as they were way back then. It's at this stage in their lives that Carl remembers their old dream. Now he reckons that in their retirement, they can afford the time and money to go see the Falls. He plans a picnic in their favorite spot, and he beckons his dear wife up the hill, so giddy to show her the Falls and breathe the South American air with her, at last. But she never makes it up that hill. Now at last, Carl is with her in the hospital. Ellie is ill, and Carl must use this time to prepare to say goodbye. But it's *never. enough. time.* They put on a brave face for one another, and Ellie finally passes on her Adventure Book, an explorer's most precious possession, to her lifelong companion. They share a last embrace, and she's gone. The last shot we see of their life together, is a broken Carl sitting for the first time in decades, alone, at the very altar he was married on so many years before. It's so- i- look Iroh mourning his son is sad, but without knowing him, it feels tragic, but we weren't there with him when he was this boy's father. We didn't see the boy who lived, so we're mourning someone with Iroh thst we do not know. After the Ip intro tho? I know who Ellie was. A very large part of me wants a spinoff series with Ellie and Carl during their marriage. And that right there means I feel exactly like Carl: "If I could only have just a little more time to spend with her. We'd go on just one more adventure"
UP.
Up I'm my opinion is sadder. Although I think it would be added to lose a child to war than to lose a spouse to age it's different because in up we're seeing the end of the life and we're seeing a man struggling with moving on. In AtlA we're seeing a man mourning a death from years ago after he has already made progress in getting better. It's not something you ever really "get over" but Iroh finds ways to be happy in like 90% of all his scenes even after losing his son. It's all about timing and context I guess. I'd understand if someone disagreed though.
Thank you for taking time to add logic and explain your answer i find comments like these way better than like one word comments
Thanks
As much as I'm a massive Avatar fan, I think I can objectively say UP was sadder. In anime-esq shows you *expect* things like this to happen and everything from the very first episode of ATLA showed war, death and loss, so it came as no big shock. UP is a Disney animated children's movie and you expect it to be happy and colourful the way through, to immediately through you into a death scene, not one set in a fictional world with super powers, but instead of a very real situation that happens to many people, it really throws you off.
Not disagreeing with your answer but death is relitivly common in disney movies ( think something like bambi , mulan , tarzan , beauty and the beast ect ) while most disney deaths take place in wacky cartoony universes ( cars , princess and the frog , finding nemo , the lion king ) to say a death or two is unexpected in a disney movie is a little( i couldnt think of a word to put here so jst fill it in yourself ) although most disney deaths arent as realistic as Ellies death to go into a disney movie and not expect at least 1 death is a little foolish
This, I feel, is a question of age. Up is by far the sadder of the two (to me). As u/ThiccyRicky said beautifully, Up showcases a life of love and tragedy that many can relate to as you get older. Its the beauty of getting to know these two people from their childhood to Ellie's final moments and all the pain and love they experience in between. It's not just Ellie's final moments that hurts - it's the pain and tragedy the two of them endure through their life. Pain that many, many adults can relate and empathize with. In contrast Iroh lost a son. A son we never meet and never experience time with. Is it sad to see an old man mourn the loss of his son? Absolutely. But we the viewer have the added knowledge of knowing that Iroh and his son were an invading force killing who knows how many people. If perhaps we had a flashback episode about the two and their life, then perhaps I'd be swayed to change my answer. The loss of a loved one is something most people experience within the first decade or so of their lives, and most people can relate to that, but for many it takes the experience of adulthood to relate to Ellie and Carl's struggle.
It's in bad taste to rank tragedy.
For the viewer? The one from up because we saw it happen
For me it was more sad hearing the pain in irohs voice and seeing him cry
And for a lot of others too it seems. I empathized with iro but I didn't feel it the way other people seem to have
Dedicated to Mako Sniff
Iroh
Uncle Iroh, that's the only one to make me cry besides tinkerbell and the neverbeast
They're both sad for different reasons. Loss is loss.
I cried at only one of these multiple times. I cried at Up the first time I watched it and then the shock sorta fell off. I don’t think I’ve been able to hold back on crying any time I’ve listened to Mako singing Leaves from the Vine. It’s gut wrenching for me in both forms. Both as Iroh and as Mako
How in the BALLS are so many people saying Up? Ellie lived a beautiful life and died of old age. Iroh's son died young and healthy. He had his whole life ahead of him, but he had to fight a war started by his sociopath uncle. And there's no doubt he saw horrible things on that battlefield.
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Though i have different reasons i still think leaves from the vine is way more sad
Definitely UP
Definitely Up but only because it’s more of a gut punch. Iroh is sad but you’ve had a long time to contemplate his loss. Comments like saying he sees Zuko as a son at the North Pole prepare us for this. Meanwhile, Pixar lured us in with the biggest emotional whiplash in ten minutes
Up. They made a short film with more tragedy than most drama films. Iroh morning his son made me cry, but a solider fighting for the bad guys doesn’t strike as tragic compared to an innocent wife dying and a hopeless widower left alone.
War is about as tragic as it gets. 
Ellie lived a long life and died of old age. Iroh has to deal with the guilt of letting his son fight for the bad guys and do bad things and his death of which he died at a healthy young age
The second one, The parent always imagines that they would go first
I love Avatar and neither made me cry bit I'd say that up was sadder .
I've honestly never felt anything watching Iroh sing to his son. It's one of those things that I didn't even know people were moved by. When I see Carl and Ellie live their lives I'm just a mess
https://preview.redd.it/wfj5ux17y29d1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62acbd550dd794c746bf437a7fd401d82b9c1e53
Up
Up
Up for sure My hot take is that I can’t feel sad for iroh. Colonizers deserve to die.
Both. It's too hard to choose so both.
Gotta say leaves from the vine. No one wants to bury their own child. Also the fact it wsd truly dedicated to the passing of the original voice actor for Iron still hits hard
Up is the sadder scene because we see the entire lives of Carl and Ellie. Her death is relatively expected due to age, but it still hits hard. The scenario presented in Avatar is sadder since no parent should ever have to bury their child, and Iroh knows he’s directly responsible for Lu Ten’s death. The amount of guilt on top of the grief had to be overwhelming. But we never see the scene of Lu Ten’s death play out nor Iroh’s desperate journey through the Spirit World to try in vain to find his son, only the aftermath 7 years in the future.
> Cymbeline. Long has it covered the graves of my forebears. Now it shall cover the grave of my son. Alas, that these evil days should be mine. The young perish and the old linger. That I should live to see the last days of my house. No parent should have to bury their child. Theoden, King of Rohan said it best. “No parent should have to bury their child.”
I wish they ended the episode of avatar with iroh
New contender: https://preview.redd.it/52fsa16ozi9d1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4e0368e70815b8f796a4a452ba6ca4946f21762
Up, because you see their love through the years.
You all seriously think that an old woman dying, who by the way lived a wonderful life full of love, is worse and more painful than a child dying in war? Wft is wrong with you people?
The child was a colonizer for an invading army, so… he basically deserved to die. If every fire nation soldier had survived the war, then every earth nation citizen would be conquered.
Ah. Yes. Kids who get thrust into war that their fathers started don’t deserve to have pity.
UP I refuse to shed a tear over Iroh's hypocrisy..he was fine with being a general and trying smoke out the capital until his son died. The additional non story context behind his voice actor recording his lines even though he doesn't have long to live does makes it tragic however
The voice actor part is what really got the water works flowing for me😢