Jasper's exceed the time frame of the capacitor plague era. Additionally, Sanyo's were unaffected to my knowledge. Though, Nichicon and UCC had some bad apples. Many other failures were from no-name brands popping up out of nowhere.
As soon as I saw a RE5 edition with RROD I knew it was going to be those caps.
Good job saving it - especially as it's in excellent condition and with blades too!
Reflowing with a paint stripper will mostly cause delamination on the board causing irriversable damage. Early model 360s are no different than ps3s. Bump material and low tg underfill caused catastrophic failure due to thermal cycles (turning console on and off multiple times). For most rrod on earlier consoles, swapping defective GPUs with a fixed one is the only proper fix. Blasting a defective chip with heat, temporarily fixing broken connections with the bumps is half-ass and temporary at best.
To be clear I wasn’t saying a heat gun was the proper way to do it lol. That being said I have had good luck with ps3’s and oven reflowing them.
My current ps3 I did that too ( 80gb bc console ) as well as replaced the caps with tantalum caps, figured if the problem comes back I’ll send it off to get Frankensteined ( put a super slim 40nm chip in ) but it’s been going strong for like 4 years while running an overclocked custom firmware🤷
With 360’s I find they aren’t worth replacing the cpu and gpu, if it’s red ringed and has older than a falcon motherboard I just replace the whole motherboard. Can usually find an ugly jasper or falcon on Facebook marketplace for 30-50 even less if the disk drive is stuck
I mostly work on backwards compatible ps3s. I can't say in your particular case what the issue was without seeing the syscon logs. Baking in an oven around 100c shouldn't cause any major damage. I do that sometimes to bake moisture out of the board before rework. Sounds like you're on the right track with your thought process though. Ride out the 90nm until it dies then decide if you want to retrofit. I agree with your take on 360s and bga work. What's the point in spending money on something like that? Unless it's a dev kit I don't really see one. Especially when you can find ones dirt cheap online.
I don’t know either I was thinking about reading the syscon when I got it but opted to just kinda do all the “fixes” and hope it worked and it did thankfully.
I could be wrong but If I remember right the reflow process was put the well supported motherboard it in a cold oven with plastics covered by aluminum foil, set oven to 350, once it reaches that temp bump oven up to 400f and set a timer for 10 mins, once timer goes off shut off oven, leave the door closed and leave the oven alone for 2+ hours.
Been forever since I did one tho. I should check the runtime on my ps3 curious how many hours it has
Yeah that sounds about right. What you need to remember is those "fixes" were written up before we knew about bump gate and Frankenstein mods. Pumping that amount of heat into a board is never a good thing. All you're doing at best is temporarily reastablishing broken connections in the RSX. It doesn't address the root cause. Some people swear the 90nm chips are good and think bumpgate is bullshit. These people usually have their business model tied up in reballs and it's in their best interest to believe that. Either way they're putting the RSX through high levels of heat to reball (which temporarily fixes connections in die and substrate). Bottom line is, if you're going to remove an RSX to reball, why not keep it off the board and slap a known good one on instead (65nm/40nm)?
Yea I think the guide I read was on ps3hax.net and I have done probably ~10 ps3s over the years like that. I would fix them, and sell them with 6 months “warranty” when I was in/ just graduated high school and needed some cash lol. Never had any come back tho🤷
Definitely not the recommended move but I hate to see backwards compatible ps3s end up in landfills
I'm not saying your thought process is the same. But allot of reballers throw the logic out that the customer never came back after a reball. They assume that means the problem is fixed. Let me ask you something? If you sent your ps3 out to be fixed and it fails after the warranty period, would you go back to that same person? I know I wouldn't.
Probably not but I usually just fix my own things lol. Including replacing a clutch in my car in a cramped one car garage with no prior experience doing that
I have this Xbox, was my first non-retro console purchase back when I was 17. Still kicking today, only issues I ever had with it was a dead HDD that was covered under warranty and more recently, the disc drive is nearly dead but the thing still chugs!
Oh that sucks, if i were you I would find a good condition jasper and swap the internals over. The arcade consoles with onboard storage and the white disk tray are usually jaspers
Ouch, surprised those Sanyo's gave out so ^relatively soon. They must've been under significant stress.
Those Chinese Chongx caps will likely get annihilated though. If you need some suggestions in the future, feel free.
No, they're just a bad batch from the capacitor plague - they're far more prone to failing than the other types used in 360s.
Probably 8-9 times out of 10, when I've seen bad caps in a 360, it's been those - so now I replace them on sight.
Just dug up their data sheet. High performance caps with an ESR of 0.012 and 2.2A ripple handling. ***And a measly rated lifetime of 2000 hrs @105C.***
Think ima chalk it up to them simply being at the end of their expected lifetime. Being located so near to such a heat source likely exasperated that fact.
Can you link me to the datasheet? Are you sure it's for these exact Sanyo caps that were used 16-18 years ago in Xbox 360s?
Although, regardless of what the datasheet says, it's kind of irrelevant if there was a manufacturing defect - and it's well documented that there was. The datasheet isn't going to say "They should last 10,000 hours but they're only going to last 1,000 hours because we got the electrolyte composition wrong".
And 2000 hrs @ 105C is irrelevant too - they'll never be exposed to anywhere near that in a 360. Their normal operating temperature will be much closer to room/ambient temperature considering they're lined along the side of the case that's used for air intake.
[Here's my source](https://www.badcaps.net/forum/general-topics/general-capacitor-questions-issues/14739-sanyo-wf-datasheet) for that data sheet
Tried finding evidence of a bad run, but just posts regarding counterfeits/old stock. Happen to have a source for this?
Wrapping up, I'd still suggest these caps performed as intended for seeing some 17 ^+/- years of use, combined with their rated lifetime and demanding use case in this scenario. Every capacitor fails eventually - even if from a reputable manufacturer and a good batch.
Random tangent: Wonder which other cap brands/series were used in this particular circuit. Would be curious to cross compare their data sheets.
Okay, well thanks for the datasheet. You called 2000 hours at 105C measly, but to be fair that seems pretty standard from other datasheets I've read, and at the temperatures they would actually be running at in an Xbox 360 they should last for thousands more hours of operation and last a good 10-20 years with normal use.
So, yes, I wouldn't be surprised to see even good capacitors dying at this age, but these Sanyo capacitors have been notorious in the 360 community for a long time. You only have to search "Sanyo" in any 360 related sub to see how people talk about them (and there's even some comments in this thread from people who aren't me). When I said I replace them on sight, that's been my policy for probably 10 years now, so they were already failing back then, after just 5-7 years. Then on the other hand I can test the other brands of caps from 2005-6 motherboards and find they're still within tolerance after 17-18 years.
Even among the consoles manufactured during the capacitor plague, the Sanyo capacitors were known to fail more than most - and then the capacitor plague ended but the problem with Sanyo caps in 360s persisted with Jasper motherboards that used them (like in this RE5 console).
And no, I can't find a source for a bad run of them when I look now, so I don't know if that was ever confirmed or it was just what was assumed among the community, but it's backed up by my own personal experience and the experience of everyone else I've heard from
So, yeah, not too surprising for any cap to be dead after 15 years, but there are plenty of plague-era 360s with Rubycon or Nichicon caps still going strong, whereas post-plague Sanyo caps started dying at least a decade ago.
I've currently got a few hundred faulty/untested 360s to sort through and I would bet good money that any time I see RROD 0001, it's going to be Sanyo caps. Might be interesting to pull a few out at random and see what I get, and keep some statistics.
Dang, I see you added to your reply lol.
>You called 2000 hours at 105C measly, but to be fair that seems pretty standard
Did some math via Digikey. Counting electrolytics only...
- 29,039 capacitors rated 2,000 hrs @105C or below
- 84,095 capacitors exceeding 2,000 hrs @105C
That's a hell of a lot 360's though. Only personally worked on a few myself; waiting to get an improved BGA rework station. Retrofit some 65nm GPUs. Otherwise, I primarily specialize in OG Xbox's, ontop of working on whatever other random device I happen across.
Ah, good ol capacitor plague. Nice work!
Jasper's exceed the time frame of the capacitor plague era. Additionally, Sanyo's were unaffected to my knowledge. Though, Nichicon and UCC had some bad apples. Many other failures were from no-name brands popping up out of nowhere.
awesome, nice job
As soon as I saw a RE5 edition with RROD I knew it was going to be those caps. Good job saving it - especially as it's in excellent condition and with blades too!
Thanks! It’s actually a metro/xbox one ugly dash console, but it’s hacked with a blades theme for freestyle dash
Came here expecting to see a hillbilly reflow with a heatgun. It's nice to see someone actually fix a problem the right way. Good for you.
Depending on the error code sometimes they need a reflow. But usually not jaspers
Reflowing with a paint stripper will mostly cause delamination on the board causing irriversable damage. Early model 360s are no different than ps3s. Bump material and low tg underfill caused catastrophic failure due to thermal cycles (turning console on and off multiple times). For most rrod on earlier consoles, swapping defective GPUs with a fixed one is the only proper fix. Blasting a defective chip with heat, temporarily fixing broken connections with the bumps is half-ass and temporary at best.
To be clear I wasn’t saying a heat gun was the proper way to do it lol. That being said I have had good luck with ps3’s and oven reflowing them. My current ps3 I did that too ( 80gb bc console ) as well as replaced the caps with tantalum caps, figured if the problem comes back I’ll send it off to get Frankensteined ( put a super slim 40nm chip in ) but it’s been going strong for like 4 years while running an overclocked custom firmware🤷 With 360’s I find they aren’t worth replacing the cpu and gpu, if it’s red ringed and has older than a falcon motherboard I just replace the whole motherboard. Can usually find an ugly jasper or falcon on Facebook marketplace for 30-50 even less if the disk drive is stuck
I mostly work on backwards compatible ps3s. I can't say in your particular case what the issue was without seeing the syscon logs. Baking in an oven around 100c shouldn't cause any major damage. I do that sometimes to bake moisture out of the board before rework. Sounds like you're on the right track with your thought process though. Ride out the 90nm until it dies then decide if you want to retrofit. I agree with your take on 360s and bga work. What's the point in spending money on something like that? Unless it's a dev kit I don't really see one. Especially when you can find ones dirt cheap online.
I don’t know either I was thinking about reading the syscon when I got it but opted to just kinda do all the “fixes” and hope it worked and it did thankfully. I could be wrong but If I remember right the reflow process was put the well supported motherboard it in a cold oven with plastics covered by aluminum foil, set oven to 350, once it reaches that temp bump oven up to 400f and set a timer for 10 mins, once timer goes off shut off oven, leave the door closed and leave the oven alone for 2+ hours. Been forever since I did one tho. I should check the runtime on my ps3 curious how many hours it has
Yeah that sounds about right. What you need to remember is those "fixes" were written up before we knew about bump gate and Frankenstein mods. Pumping that amount of heat into a board is never a good thing. All you're doing at best is temporarily reastablishing broken connections in the RSX. It doesn't address the root cause. Some people swear the 90nm chips are good and think bumpgate is bullshit. These people usually have their business model tied up in reballs and it's in their best interest to believe that. Either way they're putting the RSX through high levels of heat to reball (which temporarily fixes connections in die and substrate). Bottom line is, if you're going to remove an RSX to reball, why not keep it off the board and slap a known good one on instead (65nm/40nm)?
Yea I think the guide I read was on ps3hax.net and I have done probably ~10 ps3s over the years like that. I would fix them, and sell them with 6 months “warranty” when I was in/ just graduated high school and needed some cash lol. Never had any come back tho🤷 Definitely not the recommended move but I hate to see backwards compatible ps3s end up in landfills
I'm not saying your thought process is the same. But allot of reballers throw the logic out that the customer never came back after a reball. They assume that means the problem is fixed. Let me ask you something? If you sent your ps3 out to be fixed and it fails after the warranty period, would you go back to that same person? I know I wouldn't.
Probably not but I usually just fix my own things lol. Including replacing a clutch in my car in a cramped one car garage with no prior experience doing that
Can you send your freestyle ineed this theme 😭
https://archive.org/details/prenxe-fr-775-addons
Thank you brother
BLADES!
I’m pretty sure I still yet to see a Kronos 1 Jasper have a GPU related issue, but I’m glad this was an easy save. 🤘
That's so sick! Congrats
I have this Xbox, was my first non-retro console purchase back when I was 17. Still kicking today, only issues I ever had with it was a dead HDD that was covered under warranty and more recently, the disc drive is nearly dead but the thing still chugs!
If it still reads it’s probably just the band
It has issues reading discs if I don't do the slap trick when the tray is closing
Oh that sucks, if i were you I would find a good condition jasper and swap the internals over. The arcade consoles with onboard storage and the white disk tray are usually jaspers
Those fucking sanyo caps never fail to disappoint
They lived 15 years, guess that’s not too bad lol
Under good conditions i’m guessing. But i swear whenever that set of caps are failing, it’s always sanyo
Fair enough, although I replaced them with the cheapest option on AliExpress so idk how much better they are
Yeah you should have gone with somewhere like digikey. Not cheap but worth it in the long run
Its never crossed my mind what caused the red rings of death. Was it always swelled caps?
Not always but often ends up being the cause.
No, red ring just means hardware failure, if you press sync and eject it will flash an error code and tell you exactly what’s wrong
Ouch, surprised those Sanyo's gave out so ^relatively soon. They must've been under significant stress. Those Chinese Chongx caps will likely get annihilated though. If you need some suggestions in the future, feel free.
No, they're just a bad batch from the capacitor plague - they're far more prone to failing than the other types used in 360s. Probably 8-9 times out of 10, when I've seen bad caps in a 360, it's been those - so now I replace them on sight.
Just dug up their data sheet. High performance caps with an ESR of 0.012 and 2.2A ripple handling. ***And a measly rated lifetime of 2000 hrs @105C.*** Think ima chalk it up to them simply being at the end of their expected lifetime. Being located so near to such a heat source likely exasperated that fact.
Can you link me to the datasheet? Are you sure it's for these exact Sanyo caps that were used 16-18 years ago in Xbox 360s? Although, regardless of what the datasheet says, it's kind of irrelevant if there was a manufacturing defect - and it's well documented that there was. The datasheet isn't going to say "They should last 10,000 hours but they're only going to last 1,000 hours because we got the electrolyte composition wrong". And 2000 hrs @ 105C is irrelevant too - they'll never be exposed to anywhere near that in a 360. Their normal operating temperature will be much closer to room/ambient temperature considering they're lined along the side of the case that's used for air intake.
[Here's my source](https://www.badcaps.net/forum/general-topics/general-capacitor-questions-issues/14739-sanyo-wf-datasheet) for that data sheet Tried finding evidence of a bad run, but just posts regarding counterfeits/old stock. Happen to have a source for this? Wrapping up, I'd still suggest these caps performed as intended for seeing some 17 ^+/- years of use, combined with their rated lifetime and demanding use case in this scenario. Every capacitor fails eventually - even if from a reputable manufacturer and a good batch. Random tangent: Wonder which other cap brands/series were used in this particular circuit. Would be curious to cross compare their data sheets.
Okay, well thanks for the datasheet. You called 2000 hours at 105C measly, but to be fair that seems pretty standard from other datasheets I've read, and at the temperatures they would actually be running at in an Xbox 360 they should last for thousands more hours of operation and last a good 10-20 years with normal use. So, yes, I wouldn't be surprised to see even good capacitors dying at this age, but these Sanyo capacitors have been notorious in the 360 community for a long time. You only have to search "Sanyo" in any 360 related sub to see how people talk about them (and there's even some comments in this thread from people who aren't me). When I said I replace them on sight, that's been my policy for probably 10 years now, so they were already failing back then, after just 5-7 years. Then on the other hand I can test the other brands of caps from 2005-6 motherboards and find they're still within tolerance after 17-18 years. Even among the consoles manufactured during the capacitor plague, the Sanyo capacitors were known to fail more than most - and then the capacitor plague ended but the problem with Sanyo caps in 360s persisted with Jasper motherboards that used them (like in this RE5 console). And no, I can't find a source for a bad run of them when I look now, so I don't know if that was ever confirmed or it was just what was assumed among the community, but it's backed up by my own personal experience and the experience of everyone else I've heard from So, yeah, not too surprising for any cap to be dead after 15 years, but there are plenty of plague-era 360s with Rubycon or Nichicon caps still going strong, whereas post-plague Sanyo caps started dying at least a decade ago. I've currently got a few hundred faulty/untested 360s to sort through and I would bet good money that any time I see RROD 0001, it's going to be Sanyo caps. Might be interesting to pull a few out at random and see what I get, and keep some statistics.
Dang, I see you added to your reply lol. >You called 2000 hours at 105C measly, but to be fair that seems pretty standard Did some math via Digikey. Counting electrolytics only... - 29,039 capacitors rated 2,000 hrs @105C or below - 84,095 capacitors exceeding 2,000 hrs @105C That's a hell of a lot 360's though. Only personally worked on a few myself; waiting to get an improved BGA rework station. Retrofit some 65nm GPUs. Otherwise, I primarily specialize in OG Xbox's, ontop of working on whatever other random device I happen across.