Yes! Now let me cross post this comment to other Reddit communities…. Down with social media, except Reddit, because we think we’re superior for being on here!
The same goes for lawyers are bad except mine or congress sucks and I will reelect my congressman cause he is one of the good ones who brings pork to my district.
Social media, and more broadly, the collection and sale of identifying data, needs to be more heavily regulated. GDPR is a great first step, but we need to be going further.
Everyone always says the world has gotten dumber, but it’s painfully obvious where I’m at. It seems like the last 2-3 years people have become far more aggressive, selfish, and generally just lack a moral framework. Very strange.
I don’t come on here often… or any social media for that matter and from when I first opened this account to now… there has been a noticeable change in the general tone. There’s more negativity, cruelty, hypocrisy, arrogance, etc. Not an absolute statement, however, but in general there’s been a shift.
The average person would be mortified if they knew the real detail of data proliferation. These tech companies border on demonic greed with what they’re doing.
Yeah this thing has gotten a lot more addictive since spez killed all the 3rd party apps. I can feel it weighing on my mental health these past few months. (Btw I’m typing this as I’ve been standing in my room for a full hour doomscrolling this herion)
I think I’m gonna get off now…
The first time I enlightened a fellow redditor that Reddit is also a social media platform he/she was shocked. lol
Yes, Reddit is also a social media platform. There is literally zero difference between this and FB except for the demographic.
I would argue that on FB, there’s less social privacy. You are expected to share all your personal information, pictures, etc. Expectation of privacy? Obviously none on any platform.
I do not trust that poll. Whether you like TikTok or not, if you're not more concerned about your local governments ramping up surveillance of you, and whatever you say and do, but you're worried about that app, you're fucked, willingly.
Omg thank you!!!
It seems everyone forgot about women deleting all of their period tracking apps after the Supreme Court reneged on Roe v Wade so the government couldn’t use that information to prosecute them for having an abortion.
Yes. That happened. In America. 2 years ago.
I’m far more sketched out by local, state, and federal government having my data than fucking China. If their grand plan is to turn me into a communist anti-capitalist with a negative view of the American government, America is doing a much better job at it than TikTok is, lol.
This exactly. Now I am in Canada, but I know all about that.
They're doing similar things in Canada with surveillance, and censorship, and big social media companies are calculating to it. It is something everyone, especially in the west, should be aware of.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills every time someone brings up how dangerous it is for China to have our personal info.
First off, if they really wanted it, they would just buy it through a shell company.
Second, wtf is China going to do with my info that is somehow worse than what my OWN COUNTRY could do to me with that info?
Believe it or not, the West is ALSO the bad guy!!!!
I'm on the fence with this one, but purely from a standpoint of trade equity.
China does not allow many of our companies to operate in their market so why should we allow them in ours. In a way I don't see this any different than banning steel or agricultural imports. They can't keep their doors closed but expect everyone else to open theirs.
What exactly did that achieve? We still have FOX News, and it regularly spouts Russian propaganda.
Oh, he's technically an American citizen so now it's ok that he actively pollutes American discourse?
But the fact that the app is successful in the U.S. shows that some people prefer it as their platform for speech. Hence it automatically impacts the free speech of millions of Americans. Not to mention the algorithm itself is a form of expression by TikTok since it quite literally is an expression of content preference to serve. You wouldn't ban a left or right wing paper because they tend to publish more content in their ideology because it is their right of speech and expression. So you wouldn't ban a platform for using an algorithm to boost content they like. It's the same thing just using technology to accomplish it.
I don't use TikTok and I never will. But this is easily a free speech violation and the fact that it is seriously being considered is deeply concerning and if it does get banned and doesn't get blocked by the supreme court it will set a dangerous precedent for speech on the internet.
>The fact that the app is successful shows that social media companies have been able to hijack our attention psychology. That’s it.
So is the only reason you are on reddit right now advocating for the banning of a social media platform and the violation of free is speech because your attention psychology has been hijacked? My goodness that must be difficult for you. I on the other hand am here because of my own free will and am currently expressing an opinion that I would not like to see eliminated one day because reddit becomes seen as a threat by the government.
>Comparing our major foreign adversary that’s is *actually* authoritarian and speech suppressive, to internal political ideologies I think is just an obviously bad comparison.
I wasn't comparing a foreign adversary, I was comparing TikTok. While there are links to the Chinese government it is still an independent company which hosts many American's independent speech. Furthermore as a company operating within the U.S. it is protected by the constitution still as those rights apply whether or not you are a U.S. citizen. The first amendment applies to all *people* not just citizens. Maybe you think it is okay to suppress the rights of people just because they were not privileged to be born here or have gone through the difficult process of immigrating legally to this country, but I certainly don't and neither did the authors of the constitution.
I don't disagree at all with your negative opinions of the Chinese government. It would be hard to find someone who despises their oppression and the atrocities they have committed more. But I do not support the violation of a private companies and millions of American's speech by the government. Saying they would use this as a tool if things escalated is not justification for banning it now.
You don't combat misinformation by just banning it, you combat it by calling it out and putting out accurate information. Sure, if things truly escalated and we went to war with China then banning would be on the table. But we aren't and so it isn't.
Also, and important to note, is that it’s not just about the many tricks of the trade… it’s also about the fact that most people don’t know a lot about technology or what’s going on. The masses are kept in the dark so much that I could go on and on for days about it as I’m sure you know. Properly educating people is key. Plus Covid didn’t help. And the instant gratification that technology gives people actually has an adverse affect on the brain. I actually agree with the person who suggested we all need to go play outside. Reset our serotonin levels.
It's not up to you or the government to decide where Americans get their news that is literally the point of the first amendment. Literally Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Roger Sherman and wrote a bunch of "seditious" and "inflammatory" publications during their time, with Benjamin Franklin running a newspaper. The first Amendment was designed so that others could continue to do the same.
The fact that you are calling someone batshit crazy for saying people have the right to get their news from wherever they want is honestly authoritarian and disgusting.
> “Deemed undesirable” as if that is just an arbitrary definition.
Kind of the crux of the first amendment. Who gets to determine which speech is acceptable? I think what you're saying, no joke, is straight up anti-American in your attempts to suppress free speech. And yet, I don't think you should be legally prohibited from saying it.
Free speech constitutionally has exceptions where the government is allowed to intervene, like in cases where said speech may cause unrest, violence, discrimination, threats etc free speech isn't just say what you want
I agree that the crux of the issue is that the US needs better data privacy laws, but I take issue with the way you phrased your example.
The US is not “banning foreign apps/speech” as if it applied to *any* foreign country yet. It is banning specifically only apps from China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran, and specifically the bill only applies to the companies ByteDance or TikTok at the moment (there is wiggle room written into the bill which states the President can designate other “foreign adversaries” which is abusable and cause for concern, though).
Understand that we’re not banning free speech when we don’t agree with it; we’re banning a Chinese app because 1) the relationship between the US and China is not reciprocal and therefore not fair, and 2) we don’t have access to the Chinese algorithm behind TikTok in order to audit its mechanisms. In other words, it’s very specifically banning the *abuse of* “free speech” when “free speech” is used as a defense to protect an attack vector by a “foreign adversary”.
>China does not allow many of our companies to operate in their market
Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Valve, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Texas Instruments, Oracle, IBM, Amazon and many others operate in China. Google willingly pulled out of the Chinese market of their own accord.
They pulled out because there was no way to operate.
And everyone else is hardware not service based. They don’t have the option of pulling out either. Operating there is how you protect your IP, it gives you a little pull. They pull out China rips them off, with government backing and then sells globally, which would be a death blow to many of them.
China's policy has always been if you want to sell there you need to partner with local company, help said company to manufacture as much as possible locally, and share IP. And this is not a secret they only share after you sign a contract; companies, such as a certain jet engine manufacturer, willingly go there because quarter earnings.
> They pulled out because there was no way to operate.
China told them "you want to operate here, you need to put servers here so we can conveniently spy on users." Some companies decided they did not want to put their servers there, others did not mind.
Yup.
Apple's hardware and manufacturing is no secret to China... it's made there. The only thing that isn't is the silicon, but you can bet they've got intelligence assets infiltrating TSMC since day 1.
China can't rip off Intel, Nvidia and AMD. Their tech is several generations behind and they don't have access to the latest ASML equipment which is required to create anything that's competitive with Intel, Nvidia and AMD's latest offerings.
China can't rip off the iPhone. They don't have iOS. And ripping off Windows would be an impossible undertaking with no chance of success.
The barriers are dropping as time goes on. And that’s an issue. They used to be dozens of generations behind, now it’s just a few.
Thats how all counterfeits and ripoffs work. The barriers are originally daunting and eventually become trivial.
Used to credit cards with embossed numbers and a hologram were enough to prevent most credit card fraud. Technology made those easy to replicate in your own home. In 10 years we’ll be laughing about how chip and pin cards are so easily vulnerable.
Thats how it works. Barriers collapse. If you’re smart you respect that early on. Unlike some luxury brands who made the mistake of ignoring that.
Just because China does something does not mean we should reciprocate.
For the record, I hope all social media dies. I just don't want the media-facing side of government dictating businesses in this country.
Tik tok sends tons and tons of data about your local network to the CCP to harvest. It is literally CCP spyware. Call me crazy, but it makes sense to cut off a major supply of sigint to a military enemy.
Ok, so put in laws that make the collection and transmission of that data illegal.
Oh wait, that would impact the profits of FAANG, because they are doing most of the same shit.
I don't see this point brought up enough in my circles. People I know complain about the ban being "china = bad" or only passing now because of anti-israel sentiment, but they act surprised when I tell them that China bans major American social media platforms and that they're kind of getting a taste of their own medicine.
It really is the former points you make, not the latter. Congress knows American kids and youth get news from TikTok. Isn’t Real’s crimes are being reported directly to the people daily. Alllll these social media apps have backdoors, data sold, compromised, within domestic and possibly foreign countries’ access if we really scrutinize it all. The politics of China-bad is a nice add-on , gives the public a paper tiger to look at
That's just an absurd statement.
First off we've always had trade agreements, tariffs and bans. This is nothing new at all.
Second there are good reasons for not doing business with certain regimes. Should we drop restrictions on things like the sale of ivory or blood diamonds? Do you think we should trade with North Korea?
Trade agreements shouldn't have the power to block foreign websites, it simply shouldn't be in the toolset of the state. The US doesn't block north Korean websites so North Korea is a bad example. And obviously we can still have restrictions on physical imports without trying to balkanize the internet.
I could accept a ban on Americans receiving payments from TikTok or something to that effect, but blocking the website is political censorship, which is wholly unacceptable, even when dealing with creepy crawlies like the Chinese Communist Party.
Using this logic, you could argue foreign press is a type of business/service, no different from banking, insurance, or any other. Do you think foreign press should be blocked in America?
Sure. Like I said it's all about equity.
it's ridiculous for you to say you want to sell your stuff in my country but I'm not allowed to sell in yours.
From what I read, tic toc is also banned in China itself as the CCP doesn't have control over the algorithm.
That may change later this year - I think. I'm checking on my phone for proof and snopes is giving me a dubious answer so I may be mistaken.
Tiktok is 60% owned by foreign (mostly American) investors and its ceo is from Singapore. The idea that they're banning tiktok because it is owned by China is a farce. It is a move meant for censorship and repression of free speech. This should alarm everyone
> Why not? They have a different form of politics.
So what? That's their problem then. Either open up and make the market equal or deal with the consequences.
I think the point here is America = Freedom. Banning something like this seems a bit contradictory. Would you also like America to put up their own version of “the great firewall”?
This is exactly it IMO. If you’re an American who doesn’t think Uncle Sam has your back, then that’s fine. Just don’t make the mistake of thinking Xi Jinping is on your side - because he’s not
These articles are all so ridiculous. Why does anyone pay attention to any one of the millions of “experts” who “put out polls” that conveniently agree with whatever bias the media organization or think tank is pushing?
Breaking News! We took a poll and found we’re right!
Breaking News! We consulted a very important expert from Radio Free Asia to come and say how we need to protect from evil Chinese influence.
Fucking nonsense. Meaningless poll meant to manufacture consent.
I still don't get how banning it will make us safer. If China really wants that data, they can just go to any of the big data brokers selling social media data.
Even when it comes to using Tiktok to influence people, they can already do that on FB&Co.
This ban accomplishes nothing imo and doesn't address any of the real concerns.
I can get on instagram reels and see people being shot and murdered; I can get on tiktok, switch my feed to STEM only and get nothing but science, technology, engineering and math videos. Even outside of that setting my feed is mostly cat/physics/math/science videos. The idea that tiktok is trying to dumb the populace is insane. it is heavily moderated.
There’s only one demographic that still lives and dies by phone calls when there are so many other real time communication methods that aren’t full of scams
Nope! I’m not a boomer and I’m 100% in favor of the ban. I hope this extends further than just TikTok but it’s a good start. That the briefings are classified and that democratic law makers have concerns is more than enough for me. Hell, even the orange small handed rotten peel was behind it before he saw it as an opportunity to gain votes and flip flopped. If he can understand it why can’t everybody else??
Instead of creating user privacy laws they would rather seize control of an app that yes, clearly tracks tons of information on people/communities. This ban demonstrates a goal of information control, or news narrative control, not privacy protection.
But also TikTok banned me because I live in a building with hundreds of people. That's impossible to appeal. So in that respect, I'm 100% on board with banning them back. ;)
In an alternate universe this could have lead to increased privacy protections, data sovereignty laws, even open standards to allow migrating accounts between services. But, instead we get the simplest most useless non-solution.
I find the reasoning funny considering Meta, Microsoft, and Google collect the exact same data and have no issues letting hostile or near hostile nation states hang onto that data.
If they can out source all their shit to the global east. India for example is extremely close to Russia closer then they are to USA... yea. This was done for the benefit of America social media companies.
Which I would agree with except that the big tech companies are equally traitorous towards America.
If we're gonna ban tiktok. We should be seizing most of Google for the EXACT same reasons.
The reason is not data privacy. The reason is because geopolitical tensions are rising between great powers. Chinese companies are in some form an extension of the CCP. Tiktok has a very powerful algorithm that can influence its users by presenting a worldview more favorable to China.
China was listed as the greatest threat in the most recent national defense strategy report put out from the Pentagon. It's pretty obvious both countries are preparing for conflict.
I just want some sort of proof that they are actually pushing some sort of anti american or culturally divisive narrative that can't also be found on Twitter or Facebook. There was an entire federal investigation done to show Russia was influencing Americans on Twitter and Facebook in 2016 and nothing was done to those companies so it's clear they don't really care about foreign influence on elections.
Agreed. I regularly use tiktok and see a decent amount of anti Chinese sentiment on it. If anything china is allowing more free speech compared to other platforms as a division tactic because American companies are already heavily censoring and pushing their Own agendas imo
I think that's fair but I don't think it's a matter of not caring about foreign influence, I think these things just take time (for actual research) and are hard to address. Also u/Dresdain is absolutely right that this is not just about data privacy.
The bill seems to illustrate a legitimate national security concern that communication applications controlled by foreign adversaries pose as they "can be used by those countries to collect vast amounts of data on Americans, conduct espionage campaigns, and push misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda on the American public."
I think the intro to the "Background and Need for Legislation" section of the bill does a great job of illustrating in part some of the concern:
"Communications technologies and networks underpin the daily lives of the American public and economy. Foreign adversaries have used access to Americans' data, communications networks, devices, and applications as entry points to disrupt Americans' daily lives, conduct espionage activities, and push disinformation and propaganda campaigns in an attempt to undermine our democracy and gain worldwide influence and control. This is all a detriment to our national security interests.
One such adversary that has aggressively pursued this strategy is the People's Republic of China (PRC). It has backed hackers to disrupt our communications networks\\1\\ and used 'deceptive and coercive methods' to shape global information. As described by the U.S. Department of State, its goals are to promote 'digital authoritarianism.'\\2\\ They have accomplished some of these goals through coercion of companies headquartered in the PRC. One way it does so is through its National Intelligence Law of 2017, which requires PRC individuals and entities to support PRC intelligence services, including by providing data without regard to where that data was collected and without any mechanism of due process.\\3"
[H. Rept. 118-417](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/118th-congress/house-report/417/1) (house report that accompanies [H.R.7521](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521))
There's also [Example 1](https://www.state.gov/gec-special-report-how-the-peoples-republic-of-china-seeks-to-reshape-the-global-information-environment/) (PRC spending billions on disinformation efforts - GEC Special Report), [Example 2](https://www.odni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/ATA-2024-Unclassified-Report.pdf?source=email) (2024 Annual Threat Assessment - ODNI Unclassified Report), [Example 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/1bfto4a/youre_being_targeted_by_disinformation_networks/) (Mostly in relation to Russian efforts but still quite relevent) [Example 4](https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=tiktok&orderBy=Relevance) [Example 5](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/118th-congress/house-report/417) (background and need for legislation section). There's also around around 30+ Committee Meetings, Hearings and Reports conducted over the course of 5 years that covers TikTok and PRC meddling... \[unable to include due to char limit\]
I could keep going but to be crystal clear, there is a good reason this bill has plenty of bipartisan support. Any US citizen who knows enough about this matter should probably support the divestment of TikTok.
The bill also isn't just TikTok, it's about foreign adversary controlled communication applications that pose a threat which the bill defines as subject to the control of China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea (same countries covered by the ODNI ATA report this year. Been a minute since I read the report fully but I believe it states that a presidential determination is made when choosing a communication applications controlled by foreign adversaries to be divested through an interagency process, followed by a report to Congress describing the specific national security concerns that are raised... There is more going into the matter but suffice it say it's rather unlikely we are going to see a number of services being forced to be divested unless there is a clear and present threat and if that threat exists we would definitely want those services to be divested.
Yes propaganda and disinformation efforts have been pushed on Twitter, Facebook and other platforms by Russia, China, Iran and others. BUT there is a key difference. One of the most popular communication and distribution platforms controlled by your own government would probably be something we might wish to avoid but what about that same platform being fully controlled by a foreign government? What about a foreign adversary that has been actively working against the interests of your country, one that has invested billions in global disinformation campaigns and has storied history of digital censorship and manipulation? Meta and Twitter are not great for many reasons but at least they aren't directly controlled by a government to manipulate or take advantage of the citizens of another country, same for other large social media platforms in the US. It's the difference between groups of individual accounts acting maliciously in concert and the platform itself. Combating these foreign disinformation/propaganda campaigns across all of social media is extremely challenging for the US because of our values as a liberal democracy and there are many illiberal countries that are taking advantage of this fact to control their own populations information more strictly while simultaneously successfully attacking the west through disinformation and propaganda campaigns.
This is a fair take I would like to see something concrete, although, I'd I think a key difference between Russian interference is that they worked within an algorithm they do not control. Meaning they used it to their benefit, promoting disinformation using the existing system. Certain opinions or hobbies would lead you down a pipeline of more disinformation content.
Tiktok on the other hand would be able to implement that type of campaign at a significantly larger scale if needed.
To put out a hyperbolic example, let's say China invades Taiwan. Tawain is very important currently for the US economy and national security. Now imagine if tiktok increased the reach/spread of influencers who share anti-west opinions during this time. Championing China for fighting US imperialism in the Pacific. More users start having echo chambers that reinforce these beliefs while countering opinions might be suppressed even just mildly. These echo chambers encourage being more involved in protesting the US aggression in the Pacific that China is fighting. Soon you have massive protests ranging from anti war protests, America bad, Pacific imperialism and whatever else develops in these curated echo chambers.
The tldr version is tiktok has the ability to allow a level of influence on our populace that's never been seen before in the history of the world.
> I just want some sort of proof that they are actually pushing some sort of anti american or culturally divisive narrative that can't also be found on Twitter or Facebook.
I think the issue is:
* TikTok is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by the Chinese government - directly or indirectly. They will let you know what they want, and if it doesn't happened, you might disappear for a few months https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688 .
* Facebook is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by a US Company that wants to make money, but would eventually bend to the US Gov't if needed.
* The platform formerly known as Twitter is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by a crazy billionaire with some really bad opinions and affiliations.
If they're concerned about US platforms, the one formerly known as Twitter will be the first to go. But right now, it's mostly about foreign government influence.
[China’s Hackers Keep Targeting US Water and Electricity Supplies](https://www.wired.com/story/china-hackers-us-water-electricity-moreno-vault-7/)
Edit: downvoted for linking sources?
Which is funny because Biden pissed off half his base with that move. Can't help but think that the heavy handed response was part of what China wanted. DERP.
Or the American government itself was angry they couldn't use the algorithm for their own ends. Or control the flow of info themselves.
I mean it's not like anyone else is telling us the truth here. Meta, Google, etc are just as shitty/shady with their own goals which certainly aren't good for our country either.
But hey they all bought meta stock before passing that law. So excuse me for not believing the official line about China. They used the opportunity to enrich themselves.
https://altindex.com/news/us-congressman-bets-on-meta-during-tiktok-ban
No one in the federal government is telling the truth.
>Which is funny because Biden pissed off half his base with that move. Can't help but think that the heavy handed response was part of what China wanted. DERP.
Unlikely, but also a demographic of people who notoriously don't show up to vote. I guess maybe Donald Trump will be better for tiktok?
>Or the American government itself was angry they couldn't use the algorithm for their own ends. Or control the flow of info themselves.
As opposed to an authoritarian regime that seeks to usurp the United States as the global super power? Of course dude. We also used to have strict laws that banned foreign nations from owning radio and television networks.
>I mean it's not like anyone else is telling us the truth here. Meta, Google, etc are just as shitty/shady with their own goals which certainly aren't good for our country either.
TIL meta and Google are as shady and shitty as the CCP.
>But hey they all bought meta stock before passing that law. So excuse me for not believing the official line about China. They used the opportunity to enrich themselves.
https://altindex.com/news/us-congressman-bets-on-meta-during-tiktok-ban
Well known that Congress insider trades, hardly any regular person agrees with this practice. You also say "they all" and the article you linked only mentions one congressperson. They can do this on any decision they make so unlikely this decision was made solely for money. A more likely scenario is that politicians receive intelligence briefings and the threats have been laid out. It's why you see near bipartisan support.
The Tiktok ban has been in discussion for years. A lot of big orgs have already blocked it a long time ago - it's the government that is, as usual, the slowest to respond.
And it was delayed for years conviently so Google and Meta could set up competitors ahead of time.
You can believe them all you want. I'm not required to belive group as self interested as congress and the feds are being forth coming about their reasons.
Also unelected security analysts should not have a say on what products I a free tax paying citizen wants to enjoy.
American companies don't compete. They legislate the competition away, take government contracts (tax payer funds) and ship jobs to India.
If CCP wants to propaganda me... fine lol. More honest then being gaslit over this shit economy for the last two years.
>And it was delayed for years conviently so Google and Meta could set up competitors ahead of time.
Tiktok functionalities are easy to set up, this is a complete non-factor.
>You can believe them all you want. I'm not required to belive group as self interested as congress and the feds are being forth coming about their reasons.
I don't "believe them", banning Tiktok on managed devices has been the recommendation of many security professionals for years. Many orgs have banned it outright. Ours did, so long ago I can't remember when. Way before the US government was talking about enforcing it nationwide. And now Europe is suggesting the same, do you think it's all because they want to prop the US FAANG too?
Honestly you shouldn't be putting much of anything on secure devices for organizational use. You sound like the requests I get for robolox on their company iphones. Lol
What do people's personal devices have to do with it? You know that the scope of the latest ban, yes?
>What do people's personal devices have to do with it? You know that the scope of the latest ban, yes?
People can be victims of data theft and disinfo, and they assessed the risk of having TikTok around too high.
No (of course).
TikTok is ultimately being banned for the same reasons the Telcos started dropping Huawei core routers a few years ago: because the entire Chinese IT ecosystem is ultimately rooted to the core and should basically be assumed compromised by default in a world where this doesn't represent a massive supply chain issue for the West. Tiktok is just a very visible and public instance of this.
I would guess most Americans support sweeping privacy protections. Why would any of us care if the Chinese government is harvesting our data when every US based company is doing the same thing?
GDPR for the US when?
Half of Americans want the US government to be able to block foreign websites 🤦. Do people not even understand why it's a \*good\* thing the US gov doesn't block foreign websites. People take freedom for granted until it's gone.
I won’t be surprised if other social media companies are lobbying for this as well since it’ll bring those customer back to their own platform. It’s all about the money 🥱
This is very surprising, to me. sec aside, I thought that tiktok pushing out those notifications with a "call a lawmaker right now" buttons was the most egregious and perfect example of the concerns of it being used to manipulate our political systems directly, and then on top of that the [human rights concerns for what they do to execs in china](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/24/problem-tiktoks-claim-independence-beijing) is the perfect intersection of sec and the other concerns - It's no secret that china will murder executives or their families, torture and do terrible things to get what they want. No warrant canaries here will do anything, so separating that behavior from leadership as much as possible is just a good thing for humanity.
And none of that even touches on how toxic autoplaying short form content is when keeping you glued dead eyed to the screen is a financial motivator for both creators and the platform.
So it's really bizarre to me that there is any opposition - but I'm surprised it's come up to 50%ish support. That's... a pretty good sign for humanity overall. I think. that at least half of all people in the USA have a handle on one of those concerns.
I understand the national security implications in play here and am certainly no fan of Tiktok, ByteDance, or the PRC. But man I am not happy with the legal precedent that'll be set if ByteDance fails in court.
USA and China have beef with each other and they’re trying to drag the people into it. Happens all the time, especially when a war is waged. It’s not the people’s war. It’s the government’s war. It’s a corporation war. Which government and corporations are basically the same thing. My point is… who cares about lame tick tock or whatever it’s called. Who seriously cares. Use it or don’t. Like it or love it. Hate it or skate it. Before I bust out into some rhymes… let’s all have a group hug, shall we?
The US using China as a scapegoat to ban Tik Tok is hilarious. Only people that could read between the lines know that the ban is to suppress pro Palestinian movement as more and more videos of the IDF soldiers expose their crimes against humanity.
Yes! This 👆you can literally create your own podcast! Publish whatever you want on any blog! TikTok is far from the only place to reach people. It is definitely not the only source for education either. Honestly, to me they’re just using excuses but none of them are sufficient reason to allow a foreign adversary to maintain influence over our citizens.
That's cause of all the apps out there it's one of the least restrictive when it comes to content. Every American platform had shown lots of censorship or moderation especially prior to Elon buying Twitter. Part of it is a marketing strategy but it's better than how heavily siloed much of reddit has become or how ridiculous certain mods have become depending on the subreddits
It's algorithm mainly shows you similar stuff to what you like. ttps://www.fastcompany.com/91065874/researchers-are-finally-figuring-out-how-tiktoks-algorithm-works
Keep talking about how Tik Tok is somehow creating the illusion around conclusions. When all it is is giving a platform that allows people to post pretty much whatever and if you like it you'll see more vs disliking it means I see less. It's literally just giving the user what they want. Misinformation gets called out all the time on tiktok as well. Yet we still have subreddits that ban people for covid misinformation even when you bring up some of it was true. I also disagree that there is shady as other apps. I've seen less issues pop up with tiktok and they actively make changes..they also paya their content creator's more where others have removed or severely lessened monetization. It's people that are constantly posting their own stuff too that are pushing any kind to misinformation you have to decipher whether it's true or not have some critical thinking skills. Reddit has a history of locking threads and banning people who they don't like as well as mods using alts to manipulate upvotes/downvotes. I haven't seen tik tok as an organization push anything
Sort of like yours? Because your opinion is pretty dogshit lol!! But yeah, that's why they're banning it, because your gov can't handle opinions. Anyone who would take that freedom shouldn't have the right to express their opinion. 🖕😜🖕
Yeah, exactly, it is. But it's your opinion that people shouldn't have opinions. This is my opinion that people who have opinions that people shouldn't have opinions, don't deserve to have an opinion, or voice their opinion.
Just my opinion, man
To be honest, I think the damage has already been done. So many people are against this ban. They’re being told by divided sides of our government that this is for national security and to prevent direct influence by an adversarial nation state and all anyone can say is “BuT GoOGlE”. While it may not be that much different, it just means we need stricter data privacy and enforcement of data staying where it’s originally from. Good riddance and I look forward to the same for the rest or at least stronger, enforceable restrictions. I will never choose to allow a foreign adversary to influence our countries politics. We already have enough amongst ourselves.
I don't think you're reading the right articles about this. They are forcing them to either sell, or to be banned. It won't be available in the US unless it sells. There is no guarantee it will be sold, either. It's highly unlikely that it will be sold.
You have to understand the ultimatum bans it if it is not sold.
Yet Americans are not worried about the heightened surveillance recently imposed.
And given the options of who they want to sell it to? It doesn't look very good. There is so much manipulation going on here, lobbying from other social media giants in the USA, while those social media giants allow the gov to spy on their citizens, and control whether they are allowed to criticize their government.
I would have looked at anyone who said this stuff a couple years ago, as a little wild. But, that's exactly what is happening right now.
Funny how your gov has enough money to send to foreign countries who are starting genocides, but can't take care of their citizens, so they hide this "sell or ban" bill in that foreign aid program.
Wow that's some harsh words for no reason lmao. There's no reason for them not to sell it if the bill passes lmao. It would just be audience loss and no monetary gains vs audience loss and monetary gain. Of course they're going to say they "never" will sell it, it's a negotiation tactic.
Okay, so what's stopping the control and regulation of things then? 'Muh Freedum'
I think it's shameful and a disgrace. It makes me sad that due to the unwillingness to act America continues to allow children to die from gun violence. If that's offensive I can't help you.
Are you saying that the problems faced by Canadians regarding housing and employment are the same, or worse than, or equal to the inaction toward school shootings and gun violence?
Hello friends, just a reminder that if you want to talk about politics there are other subreddits for that.
We can all see social media is bad, but "not my social media." Delete it all, the world has gotten collectively dumber.
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Bonus points if the facebook post is then updated to link to the discord post
Socialception
Aggregation sites gonna aggregate 🎆
Let’s all go play outside again.
Why not? I have mobile internet.
We tried to escape the real world by getting into the internet. Now we try to escape the internet by getting into the real life.
Ironic
Yes! Now let me cross post this comment to other Reddit communities…. Down with social media, except Reddit, because we think we’re superior for being on here!
The same goes for lawyers are bad except mine or congress sucks and I will reelect my congressman cause he is one of the good ones who brings pork to my district.
Are you going to delete Reddit?
We all collectively need to touch grass, for the greater good.
That is not grass...
Someone pin this to the top lol
Social media, and more broadly, the collection and sale of identifying data, needs to be more heavily regulated. GDPR is a great first step, but we need to be going further.
Thank you!
I'm primarily a tweeter user; please, someone ban it!
I'd get so much more work done! Please, my house extension depends on it!
Myspace was a blessing for this.
Everyone always says the world has gotten dumber, but it’s painfully obvious where I’m at. It seems like the last 2-3 years people have become far more aggressive, selfish, and generally just lack a moral framework. Very strange.
It’s the polluted water.
Really from variety.com. lol. Slow day huh
Reddit is my main social media, where I interact with randos in the wild. Fuck.. Everything else. And fuck the reddit app too.
Reddit has gotten markedly dumber, too. It used to be so much smarter.
I don’t come on here often… or any social media for that matter and from when I first opened this account to now… there has been a noticeable change in the general tone. There’s more negativity, cruelty, hypocrisy, arrogance, etc. Not an absolute statement, however, but in general there’s been a shift.
the threshold of intelligence needed to join the conversation on reddit used to be extremely intimidating. now it's incredibly disheartening.
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The average person would be mortified if they knew the real detail of data proliferation. These tech companies border on demonic greed with what they’re doing.
At this point, the P in PII stands for "Publicly"
Yeah this thing has gotten a lot more addictive since spez killed all the 3rd party apps. I can feel it weighing on my mental health these past few months. (Btw I’m typing this as I’ve been standing in my room for a full hour doomscrolling this herion) I think I’m gonna get off now…
The first time I enlightened a fellow redditor that Reddit is also a social media platform he/she was shocked. lol Yes, Reddit is also a social media platform. There is literally zero difference between this and FB except for the demographic.
I would argue that on FB, there’s less social privacy. You are expected to share all your personal information, pictures, etc. Expectation of privacy? Obviously none on any platform.
Discord's not bad. It's like a Teams for people you actually like.
I do not trust that poll. Whether you like TikTok or not, if you're not more concerned about your local governments ramping up surveillance of you, and whatever you say and do, but you're worried about that app, you're fucked, willingly.
Omg thank you!!! It seems everyone forgot about women deleting all of their period tracking apps after the Supreme Court reneged on Roe v Wade so the government couldn’t use that information to prosecute them for having an abortion. Yes. That happened. In America. 2 years ago. I’m far more sketched out by local, state, and federal government having my data than fucking China. If their grand plan is to turn me into a communist anti-capitalist with a negative view of the American government, America is doing a much better job at it than TikTok is, lol.
This exactly. Now I am in Canada, but I know all about that. They're doing similar things in Canada with surveillance, and censorship, and big social media companies are calculating to it. It is something everyone, especially in the west, should be aware of.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills every time someone brings up how dangerous it is for China to have our personal info. First off, if they really wanted it, they would just buy it through a shell company. Second, wtf is China going to do with my info that is somehow worse than what my OWN COUNTRY could do to me with that info? Believe it or not, the West is ALSO the bad guy!!!!
I'm on the fence with this one, but purely from a standpoint of trade equity. China does not allow many of our companies to operate in their market so why should we allow them in ours. In a way I don't see this any different than banning steel or agricultural imports. They can't keep their doors closed but expect everyone else to open theirs.
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Yep. Murdoch had to become a US citizen to buy Fox News
What exactly did that achieve? We still have FOX News, and it regularly spouts Russian propaganda. Oh, he's technically an American citizen so now it's ok that he actively pollutes American discourse?
But the fact that the app is successful in the U.S. shows that some people prefer it as their platform for speech. Hence it automatically impacts the free speech of millions of Americans. Not to mention the algorithm itself is a form of expression by TikTok since it quite literally is an expression of content preference to serve. You wouldn't ban a left or right wing paper because they tend to publish more content in their ideology because it is their right of speech and expression. So you wouldn't ban a platform for using an algorithm to boost content they like. It's the same thing just using technology to accomplish it. I don't use TikTok and I never will. But this is easily a free speech violation and the fact that it is seriously being considered is deeply concerning and if it does get banned and doesn't get blocked by the supreme court it will set a dangerous precedent for speech on the internet.
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>The fact that the app is successful shows that social media companies have been able to hijack our attention psychology. That’s it. So is the only reason you are on reddit right now advocating for the banning of a social media platform and the violation of free is speech because your attention psychology has been hijacked? My goodness that must be difficult for you. I on the other hand am here because of my own free will and am currently expressing an opinion that I would not like to see eliminated one day because reddit becomes seen as a threat by the government. >Comparing our major foreign adversary that’s is *actually* authoritarian and speech suppressive, to internal political ideologies I think is just an obviously bad comparison. I wasn't comparing a foreign adversary, I was comparing TikTok. While there are links to the Chinese government it is still an independent company which hosts many American's independent speech. Furthermore as a company operating within the U.S. it is protected by the constitution still as those rights apply whether or not you are a U.S. citizen. The first amendment applies to all *people* not just citizens. Maybe you think it is okay to suppress the rights of people just because they were not privileged to be born here or have gone through the difficult process of immigrating legally to this country, but I certainly don't and neither did the authors of the constitution.
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I don't disagree at all with your negative opinions of the Chinese government. It would be hard to find someone who despises their oppression and the atrocities they have committed more. But I do not support the violation of a private companies and millions of American's speech by the government. Saying they would use this as a tool if things escalated is not justification for banning it now. You don't combat misinformation by just banning it, you combat it by calling it out and putting out accurate information. Sure, if things truly escalated and we went to war with China then banning would be on the table. But we aren't and so it isn't.
Also, and important to note, is that it’s not just about the many tricks of the trade… it’s also about the fact that most people don’t know a lot about technology or what’s going on. The masses are kept in the dark so much that I could go on and on for days about it as I’m sure you know. Properly educating people is key. Plus Covid didn’t help. And the instant gratification that technology gives people actually has an adverse affect on the brain. I actually agree with the person who suggested we all need to go play outside. Reset our serotonin levels.
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Would they tho.
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It's not up to you or the government to decide where Americans get their news that is literally the point of the first amendment. Literally Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Roger Sherman and wrote a bunch of "seditious" and "inflammatory" publications during their time, with Benjamin Franklin running a newspaper. The first Amendment was designed so that others could continue to do the same. The fact that you are calling someone batshit crazy for saying people have the right to get their news from wherever they want is honestly authoritarian and disgusting.
> “Deemed undesirable” as if that is just an arbitrary definition. Kind of the crux of the first amendment. Who gets to determine which speech is acceptable? I think what you're saying, no joke, is straight up anti-American in your attempts to suppress free speech. And yet, I don't think you should be legally prohibited from saying it.
You’re trying very hard to not understand what they’re saying.
Free speech constitutionally has exceptions where the government is allowed to intervene, like in cases where said speech may cause unrest, violence, discrimination, threats etc free speech isn't just say what you want
None of that is relevant to a TikTok ban.
I agree that the crux of the issue is that the US needs better data privacy laws, but I take issue with the way you phrased your example. The US is not “banning foreign apps/speech” as if it applied to *any* foreign country yet. It is banning specifically only apps from China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran, and specifically the bill only applies to the companies ByteDance or TikTok at the moment (there is wiggle room written into the bill which states the President can designate other “foreign adversaries” which is abusable and cause for concern, though). Understand that we’re not banning free speech when we don’t agree with it; we’re banning a Chinese app because 1) the relationship between the US and China is not reciprocal and therefore not fair, and 2) we don’t have access to the Chinese algorithm behind TikTok in order to audit its mechanisms. In other words, it’s very specifically banning the *abuse of* “free speech” when “free speech” is used as a defense to protect an attack vector by a “foreign adversary”.
>China does not allow many of our companies to operate in their market Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Valve, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Texas Instruments, Oracle, IBM, Amazon and many others operate in China. Google willingly pulled out of the Chinese market of their own accord.
They pulled out because there was no way to operate. And everyone else is hardware not service based. They don’t have the option of pulling out either. Operating there is how you protect your IP, it gives you a little pull. They pull out China rips them off, with government backing and then sells globally, which would be a death blow to many of them.
China's policy has always been if you want to sell there you need to partner with local company, help said company to manufacture as much as possible locally, and share IP. And this is not a secret they only share after you sign a contract; companies, such as a certain jet engine manufacturer, willingly go there because quarter earnings. > They pulled out because there was no way to operate. China told them "you want to operate here, you need to put servers here so we can conveniently spy on users." Some companies decided they did not want to put their servers there, others did not mind.
Yup. Apple's hardware and manufacturing is no secret to China... it's made there. The only thing that isn't is the silicon, but you can bet they've got intelligence assets infiltrating TSMC since day 1.
China can't rip off Intel, Nvidia and AMD. Their tech is several generations behind and they don't have access to the latest ASML equipment which is required to create anything that's competitive with Intel, Nvidia and AMD's latest offerings. China can't rip off the iPhone. They don't have iOS. And ripping off Windows would be an impossible undertaking with no chance of success.
The barriers are dropping as time goes on. And that’s an issue. They used to be dozens of generations behind, now it’s just a few. Thats how all counterfeits and ripoffs work. The barriers are originally daunting and eventually become trivial. Used to credit cards with embossed numbers and a hologram were enough to prevent most credit card fraud. Technology made those easy to replicate in your own home. In 10 years we’ll be laughing about how chip and pin cards are so easily vulnerable. Thats how it works. Barriers collapse. If you’re smart you respect that early on. Unlike some luxury brands who made the mistake of ignoring that.
Just because China does something does not mean we should reciprocate. For the record, I hope all social media dies. I just don't want the media-facing side of government dictating businesses in this country.
Tik tok sends tons and tons of data about your local network to the CCP to harvest. It is literally CCP spyware. Call me crazy, but it makes sense to cut off a major supply of sigint to a military enemy.
Ok, so put in laws that make the collection and transmission of that data illegal. Oh wait, that would impact the profits of FAANG, because they are doing most of the same shit.
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It may as well be a conspiracy, given that Congress keeps claiming they have evidence of wrongdoing and refusing to show it.
I don't see this point brought up enough in my circles. People I know complain about the ban being "china = bad" or only passing now because of anti-israel sentiment, but they act surprised when I tell them that China bans major American social media platforms and that they're kind of getting a taste of their own medicine.
It really is the former points you make, not the latter. Congress knows American kids and youth get news from TikTok. Isn’t Real’s crimes are being reported directly to the people daily. Alllll these social media apps have backdoors, data sold, compromised, within domestic and possibly foreign countries’ access if we really scrutinize it all. The politics of China-bad is a nice add-on , gives the public a paper tiger to look at
average hamasanabi fan
Data sold? No. Most of these companies don’t sell data. Not sure why reddit keeps claiming so.
We shouldn't become a closed off authoritarian country just because china is a closed off authoritarian country.
We wouldn't be doing that across the board. We'd only be doing that with countries who don't practice fair trade.
Doing it for any country is an invitation to the government to do it to any country the government wants to, for whatever reason, with no recourse.
That's just an absurd statement. First off we've always had trade agreements, tariffs and bans. This is nothing new at all. Second there are good reasons for not doing business with certain regimes. Should we drop restrictions on things like the sale of ivory or blood diamonds? Do you think we should trade with North Korea?
Trade agreements shouldn't have the power to block foreign websites, it simply shouldn't be in the toolset of the state. The US doesn't block north Korean websites so North Korea is a bad example. And obviously we can still have restrictions on physical imports without trying to balkanize the internet.
I could accept a ban on Americans receiving payments from TikTok or something to that effect, but blocking the website is political censorship, which is wholly unacceptable, even when dealing with creepy crawlies like the Chinese Communist Party.
Websites are a type of business/service, no different than banking, insurance or any other.
Using this logic, you could argue foreign press is a type of business/service, no different from banking, insurance, or any other. Do you think foreign press should be blocked in America?
Sure. Like I said it's all about equity. it's ridiculous for you to say you want to sell your stuff in my country but I'm not allowed to sell in yours.
Do you understand why it's bad for countries to block foreign press?
From what I read, tic toc is also banned in China itself as the CCP doesn't have control over the algorithm. That may change later this year - I think. I'm checking on my phone for proof and snopes is giving me a dubious answer so I may be mistaken.
Tiktok is 60% owned by foreign (mostly American) investors and its ceo is from Singapore. The idea that they're banning tiktok because it is owned by China is a farce. It is a move meant for censorship and repression of free speech. This should alarm everyone
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> Why not? They have a different form of politics. So what? That's their problem then. Either open up and make the market equal or deal with the consequences.
I think the point here is America = Freedom. Banning something like this seems a bit contradictory. Would you also like America to put up their own version of “the great firewall”?
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This is exactly it IMO. If you’re an American who doesn’t think Uncle Sam has your back, then that’s fine. Just don’t make the mistake of thinking Xi Jinping is on your side - because he’s not
Did someone invoke the spirit of Commodore Perry? While youre at it, get Dan Daly back in play too lol
These articles are all so ridiculous. Why does anyone pay attention to any one of the millions of “experts” who “put out polls” that conveniently agree with whatever bias the media organization or think tank is pushing? Breaking News! We took a poll and found we’re right! Breaking News! We consulted a very important expert from Radio Free Asia to come and say how we need to protect from evil Chinese influence. Fucking nonsense. Meaningless poll meant to manufacture consent.
I still don't get how banning it will make us safer. If China really wants that data, they can just go to any of the big data brokers selling social media data. Even when it comes to using Tiktok to influence people, they can already do that on FB&Co. This ban accomplishes nothing imo and doesn't address any of the real concerns.
If people even took 2 seconds to see the content allowed for children in China vs the US, that should be enough.
Tiktok is 13+ young children aren't supposed to access it. China's version for children doesn't exist here
the algorithm shows you what you want to see.
I can get on instagram reels and see people being shot and murdered; I can get on tiktok, switch my feed to STEM only and get nothing but science, technology, engineering and math videos. Even outside of that setting my feed is mostly cat/physics/math/science videos. The idea that tiktok is trying to dumb the populace is insane. it is heavily moderated.
Delete em all. Let's go back to forums
Lol, right. Who did they poll, people over 55?
Probably. Who answers their cell phone for unknown callers these days? I know that I don't. My dad does - he just wants to talk to someone.
There’s only one demographic that still lives and dies by phone calls when there are so many other real time communication methods that aren’t full of scams
Nope! I’m not a boomer and I’m 100% in favor of the ban. I hope this extends further than just TikTok but it’s a good start. That the briefings are classified and that democratic law makers have concerns is more than enough for me. Hell, even the orange small handed rotten peel was behind it before he saw it as an opportunity to gain votes and flip flopped. If he can understand it why can’t everybody else??
Instead of creating user privacy laws they would rather seize control of an app that yes, clearly tracks tons of information on people/communities. This ban demonstrates a goal of information control, or news narrative control, not privacy protection. But also TikTok banned me because I live in a building with hundreds of people. That's impossible to appeal. So in that respect, I'm 100% on board with banning them back. ;)
In an alternate universe this could have lead to increased privacy protections, data sovereignty laws, even open standards to allow migrating accounts between services. But, instead we get the simplest most useless non-solution.
I find the reasoning funny considering Meta, Microsoft, and Google collect the exact same data and have no issues letting hostile or near hostile nation states hang onto that data. If they can out source all their shit to the global east. India for example is extremely close to Russia closer then they are to USA... yea. This was done for the benefit of America social media companies. Which I would agree with except that the big tech companies are equally traitorous towards America. If we're gonna ban tiktok. We should be seizing most of Google for the EXACT same reasons.
The reason is not data privacy. The reason is because geopolitical tensions are rising between great powers. Chinese companies are in some form an extension of the CCP. Tiktok has a very powerful algorithm that can influence its users by presenting a worldview more favorable to China. China was listed as the greatest threat in the most recent national defense strategy report put out from the Pentagon. It's pretty obvious both countries are preparing for conflict.
I just want some sort of proof that they are actually pushing some sort of anti american or culturally divisive narrative that can't also be found on Twitter or Facebook. There was an entire federal investigation done to show Russia was influencing Americans on Twitter and Facebook in 2016 and nothing was done to those companies so it's clear they don't really care about foreign influence on elections.
Agreed. I regularly use tiktok and see a decent amount of anti Chinese sentiment on it. If anything china is allowing more free speech compared to other platforms as a division tactic because American companies are already heavily censoring and pushing their Own agendas imo
I think that's fair but I don't think it's a matter of not caring about foreign influence, I think these things just take time (for actual research) and are hard to address. Also u/Dresdain is absolutely right that this is not just about data privacy. The bill seems to illustrate a legitimate national security concern that communication applications controlled by foreign adversaries pose as they "can be used by those countries to collect vast amounts of data on Americans, conduct espionage campaigns, and push misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda on the American public." I think the intro to the "Background and Need for Legislation" section of the bill does a great job of illustrating in part some of the concern: "Communications technologies and networks underpin the daily lives of the American public and economy. Foreign adversaries have used access to Americans' data, communications networks, devices, and applications as entry points to disrupt Americans' daily lives, conduct espionage activities, and push disinformation and propaganda campaigns in an attempt to undermine our democracy and gain worldwide influence and control. This is all a detriment to our national security interests. One such adversary that has aggressively pursued this strategy is the People's Republic of China (PRC). It has backed hackers to disrupt our communications networks\\1\\ and used 'deceptive and coercive methods' to shape global information. As described by the U.S. Department of State, its goals are to promote 'digital authoritarianism.'\\2\\ They have accomplished some of these goals through coercion of companies headquartered in the PRC. One way it does so is through its National Intelligence Law of 2017, which requires PRC individuals and entities to support PRC intelligence services, including by providing data without regard to where that data was collected and without any mechanism of due process.\\3" [H. Rept. 118-417](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/118th-congress/house-report/417/1) (house report that accompanies [H.R.7521](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521)) There's also [Example 1](https://www.state.gov/gec-special-report-how-the-peoples-republic-of-china-seeks-to-reshape-the-global-information-environment/) (PRC spending billions on disinformation efforts - GEC Special Report), [Example 2](https://www.odni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/ATA-2024-Unclassified-Report.pdf?source=email) (2024 Annual Threat Assessment - ODNI Unclassified Report), [Example 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/1bfto4a/youre_being_targeted_by_disinformation_networks/) (Mostly in relation to Russian efforts but still quite relevent) [Example 4](https://crsreports.congress.gov/search/#/0?termsToSearch=tiktok&orderBy=Relevance) [Example 5](https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/118th-congress/house-report/417) (background and need for legislation section). There's also around around 30+ Committee Meetings, Hearings and Reports conducted over the course of 5 years that covers TikTok and PRC meddling... \[unable to include due to char limit\] I could keep going but to be crystal clear, there is a good reason this bill has plenty of bipartisan support. Any US citizen who knows enough about this matter should probably support the divestment of TikTok. The bill also isn't just TikTok, it's about foreign adversary controlled communication applications that pose a threat which the bill defines as subject to the control of China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea (same countries covered by the ODNI ATA report this year. Been a minute since I read the report fully but I believe it states that a presidential determination is made when choosing a communication applications controlled by foreign adversaries to be divested through an interagency process, followed by a report to Congress describing the specific national security concerns that are raised... There is more going into the matter but suffice it say it's rather unlikely we are going to see a number of services being forced to be divested unless there is a clear and present threat and if that threat exists we would definitely want those services to be divested. Yes propaganda and disinformation efforts have been pushed on Twitter, Facebook and other platforms by Russia, China, Iran and others. BUT there is a key difference. One of the most popular communication and distribution platforms controlled by your own government would probably be something we might wish to avoid but what about that same platform being fully controlled by a foreign government? What about a foreign adversary that has been actively working against the interests of your country, one that has invested billions in global disinformation campaigns and has storied history of digital censorship and manipulation? Meta and Twitter are not great for many reasons but at least they aren't directly controlled by a government to manipulate or take advantage of the citizens of another country, same for other large social media platforms in the US. It's the difference between groups of individual accounts acting maliciously in concert and the platform itself. Combating these foreign disinformation/propaganda campaigns across all of social media is extremely challenging for the US because of our values as a liberal democracy and there are many illiberal countries that are taking advantage of this fact to control their own populations information more strictly while simultaneously successfully attacking the west through disinformation and propaganda campaigns.
This is a fair take I would like to see something concrete, although, I'd I think a key difference between Russian interference is that they worked within an algorithm they do not control. Meaning they used it to their benefit, promoting disinformation using the existing system. Certain opinions or hobbies would lead you down a pipeline of more disinformation content. Tiktok on the other hand would be able to implement that type of campaign at a significantly larger scale if needed. To put out a hyperbolic example, let's say China invades Taiwan. Tawain is very important currently for the US economy and national security. Now imagine if tiktok increased the reach/spread of influencers who share anti-west opinions during this time. Championing China for fighting US imperialism in the Pacific. More users start having echo chambers that reinforce these beliefs while countering opinions might be suppressed even just mildly. These echo chambers encourage being more involved in protesting the US aggression in the Pacific that China is fighting. Soon you have massive protests ranging from anti war protests, America bad, Pacific imperialism and whatever else develops in these curated echo chambers. The tldr version is tiktok has the ability to allow a level of influence on our populace that's never been seen before in the history of the world.
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Surprisingly reasonable take. Making me think.
> I just want some sort of proof that they are actually pushing some sort of anti american or culturally divisive narrative that can't also be found on Twitter or Facebook. I think the issue is: * TikTok is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by the Chinese government - directly or indirectly. They will let you know what they want, and if it doesn't happened, you might disappear for a few months https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688 . * Facebook is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by a US Company that wants to make money, but would eventually bend to the US Gov't if needed. * The platform formerly known as Twitter is effectively a propaganda tool controlled by a crazy billionaire with some really bad opinions and affiliations. If they're concerned about US platforms, the one formerly known as Twitter will be the first to go. But right now, it's mostly about foreign government influence.
[China’s Hackers Keep Targeting US Water and Electricity Supplies](https://www.wired.com/story/china-hackers-us-water-electricity-moreno-vault-7/) Edit: downvoted for linking sources?
Which is funny because Biden pissed off half his base with that move. Can't help but think that the heavy handed response was part of what China wanted. DERP. Or the American government itself was angry they couldn't use the algorithm for their own ends. Or control the flow of info themselves. I mean it's not like anyone else is telling us the truth here. Meta, Google, etc are just as shitty/shady with their own goals which certainly aren't good for our country either. But hey they all bought meta stock before passing that law. So excuse me for not believing the official line about China. They used the opportunity to enrich themselves. https://altindex.com/news/us-congressman-bets-on-meta-during-tiktok-ban No one in the federal government is telling the truth.
>Which is funny because Biden pissed off half his base with that move. Can't help but think that the heavy handed response was part of what China wanted. DERP. Unlikely, but also a demographic of people who notoriously don't show up to vote. I guess maybe Donald Trump will be better for tiktok? >Or the American government itself was angry they couldn't use the algorithm for their own ends. Or control the flow of info themselves. As opposed to an authoritarian regime that seeks to usurp the United States as the global super power? Of course dude. We also used to have strict laws that banned foreign nations from owning radio and television networks. >I mean it's not like anyone else is telling us the truth here. Meta, Google, etc are just as shitty/shady with their own goals which certainly aren't good for our country either. TIL meta and Google are as shady and shitty as the CCP. >But hey they all bought meta stock before passing that law. So excuse me for not believing the official line about China. They used the opportunity to enrich themselves. https://altindex.com/news/us-congressman-bets-on-meta-during-tiktok-ban Well known that Congress insider trades, hardly any regular person agrees with this practice. You also say "they all" and the article you linked only mentions one congressperson. They can do this on any decision they make so unlikely this decision was made solely for money. A more likely scenario is that politicians receive intelligence briefings and the threats have been laid out. It's why you see near bipartisan support.
The Tiktok ban has been in discussion for years. A lot of big orgs have already blocked it a long time ago - it's the government that is, as usual, the slowest to respond.
And it was delayed for years conviently so Google and Meta could set up competitors ahead of time. You can believe them all you want. I'm not required to belive group as self interested as congress and the feds are being forth coming about their reasons. Also unelected security analysts should not have a say on what products I a free tax paying citizen wants to enjoy. American companies don't compete. They legislate the competition away, take government contracts (tax payer funds) and ship jobs to India. If CCP wants to propaganda me... fine lol. More honest then being gaslit over this shit economy for the last two years.
>And it was delayed for years conviently so Google and Meta could set up competitors ahead of time. Tiktok functionalities are easy to set up, this is a complete non-factor. >You can believe them all you want. I'm not required to belive group as self interested as congress and the feds are being forth coming about their reasons. I don't "believe them", banning Tiktok on managed devices has been the recommendation of many security professionals for years. Many orgs have banned it outright. Ours did, so long ago I can't remember when. Way before the US government was talking about enforcing it nationwide. And now Europe is suggesting the same, do you think it's all because they want to prop the US FAANG too?
Honestly you shouldn't be putting much of anything on secure devices for organizational use. You sound like the requests I get for robolox on their company iphones. Lol What do people's personal devices have to do with it? You know that the scope of the latest ban, yes?
>What do people's personal devices have to do with it? You know that the scope of the latest ban, yes? People can be victims of data theft and disinfo, and they assessed the risk of having TikTok around too high.
But meta and American companies don't have the same issues?
No (of course). TikTok is ultimately being banned for the same reasons the Telcos started dropping Huawei core routers a few years ago: because the entire Chinese IT ecosystem is ultimately rooted to the core and should basically be assumed compromised by default in a world where this doesn't represent a massive supply chain issue for the West. Tiktok is just a very visible and public instance of this.
I would guess most Americans support sweeping privacy protections. Why would any of us care if the Chinese government is harvesting our data when every US based company is doing the same thing? GDPR for the US when?
This. China can't do shit to me as a US citizen.
You mean like this: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-arrested-operating-illegal-overseas-police-station-chinese-government They can and have.
Besides this and LinkedIn this is all I got. Dumped everything else since it’s trash. Result, feel mentally better.
Linkedin is getting shitty too. I'm tired of the corporate ass kissing
The poll was sponsored by Facebook/META
I trust TikTok more than I trust the legitimacy of that poll.
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The same half (55%, 2022) that believes in the rapture lol
TikTok been banned on DoD devices for a while now
you shouldn't be using social media on your work phone anyway
Half of Americans want the US government to be able to block foreign websites 🤦. Do people not even understand why it's a \*good\* thing the US gov doesn't block foreign websites. People take freedom for granted until it's gone.
People still trust polls after the 2016 election?
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Yeah cause it has a data set of half of America….
Not related to cybersecurity field pal
This is such a BS poll, people love TikTok
The other 50% needs to watch idiocracy, then let's see hown many vote to ban?
I won’t be surprised if other social media companies are lobbying for this as well since it’ll bring those customer back to their own platform. It’s all about the money 🥱
This is very surprising, to me. sec aside, I thought that tiktok pushing out those notifications with a "call a lawmaker right now" buttons was the most egregious and perfect example of the concerns of it being used to manipulate our political systems directly, and then on top of that the [human rights concerns for what they do to execs in china](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/24/problem-tiktoks-claim-independence-beijing) is the perfect intersection of sec and the other concerns - It's no secret that china will murder executives or their families, torture and do terrible things to get what they want. No warrant canaries here will do anything, so separating that behavior from leadership as much as possible is just a good thing for humanity. And none of that even touches on how toxic autoplaying short form content is when keeping you glued dead eyed to the screen is a financial motivator for both creators and the platform. So it's really bizarre to me that there is any opposition - but I'm surprised it's come up to 50%ish support. That's... a pretty good sign for humanity overall. I think. that at least half of all people in the USA have a handle on one of those concerns.
Bullish, that our government polls don’t believe everything you read..
Doubtful
Probably the half that doesn’t realize the scope of the bill.
I understand the national security implications in play here and am certainly no fan of Tiktok, ByteDance, or the PRC. But man I am not happy with the legal precedent that'll be set if ByteDance fails in court.
I never got asked this. Has anyone else? #wheredotheygetstatsfrom
USA and China have beef with each other and they’re trying to drag the people into it. Happens all the time, especially when a war is waged. It’s not the people’s war. It’s the government’s war. It’s a corporation war. Which government and corporations are basically the same thing. My point is… who cares about lame tick tock or whatever it’s called. Who seriously cares. Use it or don’t. Like it or love it. Hate it or skate it. Before I bust out into some rhymes… let’s all have a group hug, shall we?
The US using China as a scapegoat to ban Tik Tok is hilarious. Only people that could read between the lines know that the ban is to suppress pro Palestinian movement as more and more videos of the IDF soldiers expose their crimes against humanity.
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Yes! This 👆you can literally create your own podcast! Publish whatever you want on any blog! TikTok is far from the only place to reach people. It is definitely not the only source for education either. Honestly, to me they’re just using excuses but none of them are sufficient reason to allow a foreign adversary to maintain influence over our citizens.
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That's cause of all the apps out there it's one of the least restrictive when it comes to content. Every American platform had shown lots of censorship or moderation especially prior to Elon buying Twitter. Part of it is a marketing strategy but it's better than how heavily siloed much of reddit has become or how ridiculous certain mods have become depending on the subreddits
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It's algorithm mainly shows you similar stuff to what you like. ttps://www.fastcompany.com/91065874/researchers-are-finally-figuring-out-how-tiktoks-algorithm-works Keep talking about how Tik Tok is somehow creating the illusion around conclusions. When all it is is giving a platform that allows people to post pretty much whatever and if you like it you'll see more vs disliking it means I see less. It's literally just giving the user what they want. Misinformation gets called out all the time on tiktok as well. Yet we still have subreddits that ban people for covid misinformation even when you bring up some of it was true. I also disagree that there is shady as other apps. I've seen less issues pop up with tiktok and they actively make changes..they also paya their content creator's more where others have removed or severely lessened monetization. It's people that are constantly posting their own stuff too that are pushing any kind to misinformation you have to decipher whether it's true or not have some critical thinking skills. Reddit has a history of locking threads and banning people who they don't like as well as mods using alts to manipulate upvotes/downvotes. I haven't seen tik tok as an organization push anything
Dog shit app that gives a big microphone to a lot of dogshit people with dogshit opinions. I won't feel sad at all if it's banned.
Sort of like yours? Because your opinion is pretty dogshit lol!! But yeah, that's why they're banning it, because your gov can't handle opinions. Anyone who would take that freedom shouldn't have the right to express their opinion. 🖕😜🖕
That's just like, your opinion, man
Yeah, exactly, it is. But it's your opinion that people shouldn't have opinions. This is my opinion that people who have opinions that people shouldn't have opinions, don't deserve to have an opinion, or voice their opinion. Just my opinion, man
To be honest, I think the damage has already been done. So many people are against this ban. They’re being told by divided sides of our government that this is for national security and to prevent direct influence by an adversarial nation state and all anyone can say is “BuT GoOGlE”. While it may not be that much different, it just means we need stricter data privacy and enforcement of data staying where it’s originally from. Good riddance and I look forward to the same for the rest or at least stronger, enforceable restrictions. I will never choose to allow a foreign adversary to influence our countries politics. We already have enough amongst ourselves.
I use the app every day but I could care less about billionaire problems
more than 80% of americans are idiots
Get rid of it!!
Doubt.
Can we stop calling it a ban? It's not a ban.
Whatever your semantics are, it's a ban.
So, it being available in the US after its sale is a ban?
I don't think you're reading the right articles about this. They are forcing them to either sell, or to be banned. It won't be available in the US unless it sells. There is no guarantee it will be sold, either. It's highly unlikely that it will be sold. You have to understand the ultimatum bans it if it is not sold. Yet Americans are not worried about the heightened surveillance recently imposed.
And given the options of who they want to sell it to? It doesn't look very good. There is so much manipulation going on here, lobbying from other social media giants in the USA, while those social media giants allow the gov to spy on their citizens, and control whether they are allowed to criticize their government. I would have looked at anyone who said this stuff a couple years ago, as a little wild. But, that's exactly what is happening right now. Funny how your gov has enough money to send to foreign countries who are starting genocides, but can't take care of their citizens, so they hide this "sell or ban" bill in that foreign aid program.
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Wow that's some harsh words for no reason lmao. There's no reason for them not to sell it if the bill passes lmao. It would just be audience loss and no monetary gains vs audience loss and monetary gain. Of course they're going to say they "never" will sell it, it's a negotiation tactic.
America can't stop letting their children shoot one another, I don't think their take on social media is well grounded.
Shouldn't your government fine you for a hateful message like that
Okay, so what's stopping the control and regulation of things then? 'Muh Freedum' I think it's shameful and a disgrace. It makes me sad that due to the unwillingness to act America continues to allow children to die from gun violence. If that's offensive I can't help you.
It's all good dude I know you're just mad that Trudeau sold you out and you can't afford to live in your country
Are you saying that the problems faced by Canadians regarding housing and employment are the same, or worse than, or equal to the inaction toward school shootings and gun violence?
This is how democracy dies... With thunderous applause. Not a single person worried that shutting down the voices of a third of America is a concern.
Morons. There's no possible way they will use this law to ban other "dangerous" media apps. /s