I have found myself thinking about that part a lot, too.
My interpretation of it is that Jessica saw an opportunity to make another event in Paul's life fit the prophecy, and took it--namely, forcing Chani to do it instead of helping Paul, herself. I believe that she could have done it, but waited for Chani.
What if Chani hadn't shown up? Jessica would have done it. What about the prophecy? That's the thing about prophecies and believers-- they would still believe, and keep waiting for that part of the prophecy to be fulfilled in some other way. Keep in mind, there were already believers before Paul had "fulfilled" any of the prophecies. Each time he did something that could fit, the believers emphasized it and more were converted. But, so often, they use post hoc logic to fit things. "Restored to life by desert tears" could mean many, many things.
My interpretation both in the book and movie is that Paul was ‘lost’ in the spectacle of other memories during the water of life trial. Chani communicates with Paul via her DNA and this was the impetus he needed to focus on returning to consciousness.
I believe in the first book during this scene it states that Paul was indeed lost in the space time trance of Other Memories, and the drop of raw Water that Chani gave him acted as a reference point as to the actual current time and space.
So basically any tear would work and the prophecy would just be bent to the events? Does sound like the most plausible solution. Especially if you account the description of the darkness you can get lost in during the trance.
Fits the tone much better, then BG actually predicting the future.
In the book there was no tear - a drop of raw, unchanged water of life brought him to his senses. Now, chani had that idea and Jessica had no clue, which I think is very interesting for the book angle. How would Jessica, with thousands of saayadina in her head, not know, but chani would?
In the book, it's also made clear that Jessica had no idea what had actually happened to him - she thought the Harkonnens had poisoned him. It's only Chani, with her closer understanding of him, who realised what he'd actually done.
Because no man had ever survived the trial before? No one had any insight into what would be necessary for Paul to survive because none had witnessed it.
I think I remember them saying Chani's full name in the movie, and that it literally means "desert spring". Therefore it had to be her tears. And it is a real prophecy, like you said this makes the issue of control or propaganda moot.
I think an important fact to remember about reality (either fictional ones or non-fictional ones) is that just because something starts out as propaganda or a lie, that doesn't preclude the possibility of it becoming something true.
With obvious exceptions to this like gravity and other measurable laws of physics/science. It is well known, if not seldom spoken of, that if enough people believe in a lie there is little practical difference between it and the truth.
Case in point: the "court" of public opinion. See also: The Internet.
Tears are irrelevant. That’s just another bit of hokum in the prophecy and from a purely mystical standpoint something that would add an air of mystery for a people who have evolved to rarely shed tears. It probably snuck in over time from the Fremen themselves.
The raw water of life is the important bit because it forces Paul to focus on the here and now so he can alter it or it will kill him.
When Chani asks Paul if he’s ok he says “thanks to you” and gives away the whole ruse. How does he know he woke up because of the spring tears and water of life? Because he was either in on it and/or knew Jessica was about to make a moment out of the whole thing to fulfill the “prophecy”.
One thing to remember is that the book and, to a possibly lesser extent, the movies are a deconstruction of messianic figures and heroes. Something of a cautionary tale against placing faith and trust in people blindly. So depicting a prophesy that is potentially fulfilled a number of different ways and still being used as 'proof' by those that believe is completely on brand for the overall message.
"He is too modest to admit, so he must be the Mahdi!" is a line that comes to mind. I think your explanation makes perfect sense. People fit things to their worldview, whether they're a result of that view or not. Even Paul, who resists the prophecy, outright denies he's the Mahdi right before Stilgar delivers that line, succumbs to it. Self-fulfilling prophecies are a real thing. Belief is powerful.
Keep in mind that Chani is also the daughter of Liet-Kynes who had a large influence on the Fremen traditions, bending them to his ecological plans for Arrakis. Prophecies lose a lot of their mystical quality when you see that it's just calling out the end result of a plan that was put into motion. I see Chani's role in it as the symbolic union of the BG plan and the Liet plan, with the KH leading the Fremen to Green Paradise
Not in the movies. It would make her too powerful and kinda against Villeneuves Vision. She is a warrior not a saayadina
Edit: the second half of the commet is amazing
The prophecy is BG propaganda, that is a fact in the books and the movie. It’s not specific to Dune, it’s seeded on all susceptible worlds within the reach of the BG and is largely a “just in case we need it” measure.
The scene with Chani is purely cinematic, it’s a movie shortcut to get across what’s happening simply and powerfully and economically as possible. Ultimately in the book her involvement saves Paul but it’s far less direct, the movie version turns it into something powerfully symbolic in a way that, in a book, might be trite.
It is entirely reasonable to just assume Paul just happened to wake up at that moment and the tears had nothing to do with it, or to assume the prophecy is real if that floats your boat, Paul and Jessica’s interaction with the prophecy though is entirely with the foreknowledge of what it says and how and why it was created. It can still be real as well though if you like, the film deliberately plays with the ambiguity of it despite also outright stating it isn’t true, so believe it if you want but you’ll not get any answer about the mechanics of the magic at play, it’ll never be clearer than “it’s not real, or is it?”.
If you do assume that, it still makes for a head scratching huge coincidence
And he probably wasn't faking it too. Just like in the books. Where he layed there barely alive for three weeks "A moment for you, three weeks for me"
You have no idea how many prophecies there are, the point is they are fitting the words into the events after the fact and Paul and Jessica and manipulating it to fit
My gut is telling me that any deviation from the book regarding the Missionaria Protectiva/Panoplia Propheticus laid down on the Fremen will be used as a pivot into the plot of Dune 3 (Dune Messiah).
This was my assumption. One of the less confusing parts of Messiah was the corruption of Paul’s religion. I tend to think they’ll want to lean heavily on that plot line for the non book readers.
The missionaria Protectiva seeded these "prophecies" on worlds across the emperium. It's leverage the BG can use to control local populations. Also useful for individual BG to use to save themselves from sticky situations.
I think the implication in both the book and movie is that as opposed to other planets where the Missionaria Protectiva also seeded manufactured prophecies, on Dune they may actually be augmented with true prophecy due to the Fremen living their entire lives spiced out giving them some amount of limited prescience. I think the audience is supposed to be unsure at times whether it’s Paul/Jessica manipulating the prophecy to suit them or Paul is actually who Fremen prophecy foretold would come, like how Paul pretends to choose Muad’Dib naturally vs. him just actually knowing how to wear a stillsuit without being told
The fact that the Bene Gesserit planted that prophecy on the most important planet in the universe where the population is spiced up 24/7 just so a BG can use it to help her if she gets trapped or something seems pretty naive. For an organization whos plans are measured in centuries I expected more
Yeah I think it was just hubris, similar to them thinking they would be able to control a kwisatz haderach once they produced him. I love that Jessica in the book is like “heh these quaint backwater hicks even call their matriarchs reverend mothers how cute” and then after the water of life ritual is like “oh fuck but they actually meant it for real”
The arrogance is that the Bene Gesserit dismiss the Fremen Sayaddinas as being 'wild' Bene Gesserit sisters, when, given the importance of Arrakis and the Spice to the way everything in the universe works, it's actually far more likely that the Bene Gesserit were an offshoot of the Sayaddinas that sold out and went corporate
And it would make total sense for them to prepare everything for them to take over Arrakis. Ultimate power over spice is the ultimate power at the end.
The Bene Gessetti do not want direct control over the universe, their goal is to evolve mankind and eliminate dependencies like the reliance of spice which is a weakness. They want a human (KH) who can see the way forward with the additional memories of the past from the male line, Paul actually opts not to follow the path that will save humanity because of the sacrifice required. His son Leto II is the one who actually does that.
This was my biggest gripe as well. But “desert spring tears” could just be the water of life. The place where they make it is in a desert spring where they drown the worm.
That's a damn good point. Would also create a logical bridge between what's happening and Chanis second name being Desert Tears. All names have meaning and they do evolve with culture. Thus the new names of the given culture being inspired from the ethos. The prophecy saying Desert spring tears had no implications of actual person bearing that name and implied only the "tears" of dying Shai Hulud. Chanis secret name being pure coincidence.
I would have to agree. He watered down the fatalist / overarching political elements to make it more digestible as a movie by focusing on the religious zealot aspects. Which is fine, it works well in movie format but isn't nearly as strong as the book IMO.
That’s funny, I came away with the exact opposite interpretation—that the book made the prophecy have much more of a religious tint than the movies. To me, it was very clear in the films that any prophecy was put into Dune by the BG, and that any Fremen who believed was tricked (for lack of a better word) by it. The book, even though it had the same attitude towards the prophecy, seemed to imply that the fact that the KH and the Lisan al-Gaib were the same person, who also took the throne, is more than just coincidence. From Appendix III to Dune:
“In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware!”
I have thought a lot about this scene, too. If I were watching it as a naive viewer who hasn't read the books, I think this would have been my interpretation:
Paul was faking. He knew about the desert spring prophecy, so he faked being in a coma, knowing that having Chani wake him would further legitimize him to all the Fremen. Jessica knew or at least suspected that he was faking.
Knowing how the scene went down in the books makes me question this interpretation so I really don't know where the movie was going with it. I don't think it was meant to be a "real" prophecy though.
The prophecy was always real. The BG used spice to see a hazy future where they create the KH. They seeded that story across the galaxy to prepare the way for him to reshape the Imperium, the Lisan Al-Ghaib is as real as Tesla FSD, coming soon (tm)
On Arrakis the trouble was that everyone was huffing spice in the very air so their religion got more accurate because the visions the Fremen saw were more accurate than the BG tales.
The fact is by the time Paul arrives their visions at large have understood what is going to happen, and so it does. The foretelling is of factual events.
This is a far tighter interpretation than most are giving. I think it's key to understand the part about how the Fremen generally have low level prescience due to constant spice exposure. With that in mind, you can see how collective prescience is arguably selecting a reality in much the same way that Paul ultimately does as the KH. It's just drifting closer and closer over time to rhe specific future from all the possible futures rather than being more specifically determined through key in/actions.
I agree this feels like the best answer, plus it also blurs the lines between fake/ real prophesy. If the BG and Fremen actually saw the future, then it's a self fulfilling prophesy. Paul and Jessica did the things they were predicted to do because it was predicted they would do them.
The best part about this to me is that, it still leaves the religion as a matter of faith. If I was a Fremen and the curtain was pulled back, that doesn't negate Paul as the Messiah. If the BG could see a future where Paul does these things, then maybe the other parts of the prophesy are also true (i.e. paradise). Other people however may be turned off by the fact they were "lied" to. How can we trust the rest of the prophesy when it was fabricated?
That's an interesting perspective. What's your source? I'm not arguing, more like "what book do I need to read to get a better understanding of the situation?" :)
In the movie, the prophecy is explicitly not real, yet the symbolism is purposefully muddied enough to make viewers, and Fremen believers think it may be.
The first thing is, Chani's tears are not what awakens Paul, but the last drop of the water of life that she mixes it with, or perhaps a mixture of the two somehow. The point being, it is communicated to us that this is more of a chemical reaction than a magical prophecy.
The second point about the prophecy, is that we the viewers do not know the whole of it. It seems to us like everything mentioned is being fulfilled, when in all likelihood, there are books and books of prophecy written over thousands of years, and Paul is hitting enough of the big beats to keep the Fremen believing in him. If he fell in love with someone named Shadegiving Cliff, there could very well be another passage that says the "sweat of the Shadegiving Cliff restored life on his voyage in a strange land", and then Shadgiving Cliff could be compelled by Jessica to take the sweat from her brow and mix it with the water of life to revive Paul. In other words, much of the prophecy is probably unsaid or ignored, or treated as more metaphorical, but when something happens word for word, it is "as written".
The third thing is, when the prophecy is less specific, everything Paul does is interpreted as prophecy by believers. Boots slip fashion, denying leadership, riding a big worm (or was it the biggest?). Even in the cave of birds scene in the movie, Fremen aren't ready to buy it, but by sheer will and display of power, in the right time and place, they are won over.
TL;DR: This Prophecy is how they enslave us. How they domina—
After reading all the comments I've decided the correct way forward is view the movie through the lens of the *unreliable narrator*. We need to treat everyone in the movie like a liar and and ask ourselves what things happened off screen.
1. Paul says he "slips" his stillsuit because it "seemed right". This could be a lie. He watched a documentary about Arrakis that taught him to sandwalk. Surely they also covered stillsuits. Maybe he just didn't want to admit that.
2. Paul stops himself from "man-splaining" sand walking to Chani, an indigenous person who obviously knows how to sandwalk. Today's audience probably assumed Paul just caught himself before committing a faux pas, but what if Paul *actually knows better*. He starts to cite anthropologists. What if those anthropologists have studied many different tribes and cross referenced their styles to distill the core style of sandwalking? Paul's style might look funny to Chani's particular subculture, but maybe it's actually close enough that *any* sub-culture would recognize it as "good enough". Hence fulfilling the prophesy that he "knows their ways" no matter who he met.
3. The BG know how to transmute poison. Maybe Paul does too. The audience assumes that Chani's tears did something to wake Paul. What if this is just classic smoke and mirrors. Jessica (or Paul) may have simply caused Paul to awaken at the proper moment to make it look like the tears were important.
Everything I said might be false. That's not the point. The point is once you start interpreting the movie as "this is what they want me to see" (propaganda) and start asking "what don't they want me to see" it opens up a lot more possibilities. This skeptical view point is also in line with the movies themes of "this is how they control us".
There’s no actual prophecy, just a tool for him and Jessica to use to their advantage.
Paul wasn’t awaken from the trance by the tear, but because he waited for Chani to act accordingly to the « prophecy », playing on the faith of everyone present in the room.
You can see how he looks around after the act, he’s confirming that scheme worked and Chani slapped him because she understood he and his mom used her for that.
this is not how it was. He was in a coma for three weeks. The Fremen wanted to take his water, but Jessica told them he was 'gathering his holy powers before battle". Only HIS Fedaykin, (and they were his, he created them) protected him
In the book, yes.
But I was answering to the interpretation that DV was giving credence to the prophecy in the movie adaptation, while it was actually a well played move from the characters to sway the Fremen in their own beliefs.
> Paul wasn’t awaken from the trance by the tear, but because he waited for Chani
This was also my take away from the film.
Villeneuve doesn’t seem to be a fan of gratuitous dialog, which poses some storytelling challenges in a universe as rich as Dune.
What we see is that Paul resisted going south for fear of fulfilling his visions of the holy war. In his conversation with Gurney Halleck about going south and gaining control of the Fremen fighters, Paul quips “I’m afraid to gain it”.
This holds until the destruction of Sietch Tabr, at which point, it’s painfully clear that he has to embrace the role of Lisan Al-Gaib in order to exact his revenge.
Earlier in the film, Paul comments on how Jessica was trained on poison transmutation when she takes the worm bile. Presumably Jessica trained Paul too (prana-bindu in the novels).
The changes from the “bile+transmutation=water of life” to the “Chani tear” was the film’s way to have Paul consciously play into the prophecy and an elegant way to avoid a cringy, Matrix-style, spice orgy.
Oooooohhhh I really like this interpretation a lot. I took the slap as a regular relationship "you asshole, do you know how worried I was about you!?" kinda slap, but I like the idea of Chani being aware that he just used her to fulfill part of the prophecy.
I wonder about that i mean Paul can see the future, the next book is all about people with various amounts of precognition fucking around with prescience. is it so crazy that a bene geserit mother sent to bend the indigenous religions to the sister hoods use when confronted with massive amounts of spice might not see glimpses of the future and incorporate them into the religion?
When I was watching Dune part two a second time, I thought that maybe Chani’s tears had enough Fremen genetic material to give Paul the information he needed to convert the Water of Life. Maybe it could’ve been any Fremen tear, but the fact that Chani went along with the prophecy makes the audience say “oh man the prophecy IS true!!” yet again. It goes with the whole theme of telling the audience that it’s a fake prophecy but the audience STILL believes Paul is the Chosen One.
Wow. Denis totally gets dune.
>but the fact that Chani went along with the prophecy makes the audience say “oh man the prophecy IS true!!” yet again
But she doesn't go along with it. It took Jessica forcing her to do it. Chani, I assume, is well aware of the general prophecy. She was named after it. I'm not relgious in the least, but I still know all about Jesus, ya' know?
I personally think, as a screenwriter, its related directly to Villeneuve and his team simplifying the overarching complexities of the book, and meeting cinema-structure goals. The book ofc mentions the use of the religious seeding in larger expanse than the films, for quite a lot of reasons.
In screenwriting, you have on average about 1 page per minute as a sort of guide line. When you only have around 150 pages per film, you have to remove, condense, and simplify a very large portion of the book and its story. When this is the case, plot-heavy scenes and points take priority over smaller traditions, rituals, etc in terms of screen time. Tbh, for how much was needed to be told in the last half of the book they fit a shit ton in; which of course came with a little tweaking of the lore to fit this screen adaptation.
think of it more like a checklist:
- Tell & show the audience the BG layed a false religion to use the people for their own goods.
- Show the audience Jessica's role and the two of them using the "prophecies" to back up paul's goals.
- Show growing support / societal interactions in relation to the use of this prophecy; Both positive and negative.
Rather than spend too much time focusing on the BG, they simply informed the audience of the fact the prophecy was for their own good. Thus, time to move on to the next part of the plot. instead of spending extra screen time overexplaining the details and content of the religious tool from the book, I'm sure they used the "prophecy" to help guide people along with an easier story. It keeps it less cluttered when you think of a prophecy, rather than trying to give the audience too much. Especially when it comes to introducing new viewers / fans, you have to help them understand even if that means changing the book a bit.
For example:
Its just as if I showed people a car with 200 buttons and tell them they control the drive mechanism. Instead, I would show them a 3 button vehicle and say: this is start, stop, and neutral. While ultimately providing the same function, it makes it easier for the less familiar perspective.
BUT! Dont get me wrong, I will say the whole "desert spring tears" was unexpected and kinda weird. I feel like they just used that to develop the relation of relevance for Chani in the story. Showing the bond and importance they both share to each other in their love. It also plays into "giving water to the dead". I think it would have been simply easier for them to stick to how the book had it. Just have Chani about to put a drop of water in his mouth as he opens his eyes, then explains his mothers teachings saved him (poison transmutation).
Honestly, it's movie shorthand. Portraying Paul's spice-visions as actual factual prophecy (rather than glimpses of maybe-futures), consolidating the messiah mythology into those prophecies (rather than having a bunch of disparate missionaria threads being cynically manipulated around budding prescience), having Paul's recovery be according to prophecy (rather than smart biological manipulation)... it's all done to enable it to be shown in an entirely visual medium.
Taking in the water of life and biologically transmuting it with Bene Gesserit metabolic control is fascinating to read about, but completely nothing to watch. There's nothing to see, no visual indicator. You *could* do that via CG visualisation sequences and voice-overs, but that leaves a very important character point relegated to being an *explanation* rather than an *experience*. Tying everything into the prophecy visions is an elegant way to link it all in a way that both a) the audience can intuit, and b) is easily shown on screen via actions.
The fallout of this, as you've noted, is that it makes the prophecies of Muad'dib *actual* prophecies - but then, we're in a setting where cinnamon gives you precognition, so that's not exactly a plot hole, just a change.
This is scene was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
It was one choice made for style without substance too many by that point.
I don’t think there is any meaning to it at all, really. I think it just seemed “cool”. Even the propaganda angle of it doesn’t make sense.
Chani was thrown under the bus and absolutely no words for Jessica. She was neither a good spouse/concubine or a mother to Paul and Alia. Chani should have continued to walk away from this situation but of course, she cannot.
I wish the movies had spent more time on her character—and others—in Part One. Her love for the Duke and the choices she made out of that love—plus the pain she felt as being held at concubine status, although she understood the political necessity—were crucial to humanizing her and making her more than just Paul’s mom.
They ruined Jessica's character in the process of elevating Chani's. Jessica is a formidable, flawed, and confliced character in the book. She has a lot more empathy for the Fremen. The book goes to lengths to explain the traumatic history of the Fremen through Jessica's spice agony experience. Ramallo basically saves Jessica's unborn child. In the movie she undergoes this process and then turns on the Fremen. She is horror movie evil and at times seems like a puppet of evil Alia, who is also much more nuanced in the book. I hate what they did, a lot.
I agree. She was actually a friend and role model to Chani and ultimately preps her for Paul’s marriage to Irulan exactly to avoid the ending they chose for the movie.
My take on why religion and prophecy was highlighted is that it is needed for the accelerated timeline. In the books, it takes years for Paul to become emperor after joining the Fremen. In the movie, it’s a few months. The only way for that to happen is if there are some wild religious beliefs that get played up
With Chani saving Paul, my understanding is that was all theater done to help with the religious acceptance. Jessica enabled it, and Paul played along
My take is that the line about spring tears is purposely vague. Could mean lots of things. The Missionaria Protectiva puts a lot of loaded ideas into cultures that are designed to be utilized by BG. The way they can be utilized can vary from situation to situation, and there are common patterns recognizable and usable by any trained BG.
Chani's tears may not have been necessary... Just a drop of the water of life. If Jessica knew that a drop would do it, it's possible she waited for Chani to apply it with a tear to fulfill the prophecy. That is in line with the manipulative nature of her personality and the fact she's willing to risk a lot to achieve her goals.
DV also leaves a lot open and vague.
I think he did a really good job with the movies.
Chani can change the water in the book because she is a priestess, a very powerful one who was in line to be Reverend Mother before Jessica. The book implies her "love saved Maudib"
It is never a tear in the book
When Paul and Chani are talking alone on top of the dune, she says her name means “desert spring”. Then after Paul takes the water of life, Chani uses her tears to wake Paul. Because the prophecy states “He will awaken with the tears of the desert spring “
That’s the problem that OP is staying, because that is not at all what happened. The prophecy is fake, and the tears had nothing to do with Paul waking up. But the movie doesn’t do a good job showing that
Technically we don’t even know if what Jessica said is actually part of the prophecy. It’s never said that it was written down anywhere, presumably the reverend mothers are the ones who “know it” but since it all stems from the Bene Gesserit, who is to say they aren’t adding details as it fits their situation?
Unless I’m mistaken, Chani just says something like “my name is just part of some prophecy,” but at this point it has already been shown she is aware of the Lisan al-Gaib prophecy, so why say it like that? It’s possible it’s only loosely connected in some vague way, or not even directly to the Lisan al-Gaib, and Jessica just creates that connection in the moment.
The Bene Gesserit created the prophecies but they also interpret the prophecies. The BG created a bunch of different prophecies and the prophecies are vague enough to be interpreted in different ways.
When the BG's chosen messiah does something significant, the reverend mother can pick a quote from the dozens or hundreds prophecies they've planted and say that the messiah has fulfilled it.
If Paul had been awoken by something else, instead of the "desert spring tears" line, Jessica could have cited some other prophecy that matched more closely to what happened and say Paul fulfilled that prophecy.
Chanis Fremen name is Sihaya which translates to “desert spring” apparently it was written that “tears from the desert spring” would save him? I’m still a little foggy on that part myself.
I don't think Chani made any difference. Paul just did it himself and waited for her to use her for the prophecy. That is why she is extra mad at him, she feels used.
I don't think it matters that much. I think the main takeaway from this scene in both the novel and the film is the religious implications it holds for the Fremen, and how Paul further solidifies himself as their Mahdi.
In the novel, only Jessica and the higher-ranking Fremen know that Paul is in a coma, so the religious aspect comes after he wakes up, with Korba having secretly listened to what he saw in his trance and spreading these rumours to the others. In the film it shifts away from this to make the actual ritual of him waking up adding the religious implications while also involving Chani in the story. This makes her role in the story bigger, something Villeneuve finds very important for the film, and also makes the scene more public and therefore easier to visually depict than, as the book does it, through an imagined word-of-mouth spread of Paul's messianic powers.
I agree with Kinbote808 and SmokyDragonDish, it's one of those necessary changes to adapt the story to film which keeps the implications but doesn't need to be completely explained, although hopefully it will be expounded on in Messiah.
honestly, with all the talk about villeneuve portraying paul as a warning, it seemed like the exact opposite. i haven't read the books yet, but i knew going into the film that paul is a fake prophet. but still, at times i questioned the fact. if i hadn't known that it's supposed to be fake beforehand, i'd fully believe him to be messiah, even despite chani and her northern friend serving as the voices of reason. the fact that paul somehow claimed the shai hulud, how could that happen on accident? and like you said, chani awakening him so quickly. the fact that this particular girl, paul's peer, happened to be his romantic interest AND fit the prophecy with her name, it all leaves me puzzled. too many happy accidents at once, even though i know it's all a lie
In the books, there's a line during one of Liet-Kines's scenes, "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than to fall into the hands of a Hero."
It's not that Paul is a fake, it's that he was a little messiah acorn planted in soil that was well prepared to grow a big messiah oak tree, and that messiah oak trees aren't all they're cracked up to be.
In the movie they say it’s the tears of the desert spring that will awaken him from the water of life. Earlier in the movie chani tells Paul that her name translates to…..desert spring. That’s how she knew.
I think this is the best comment I’ve seen on this page, I think it’s impossible to tell now but depending on how they handle the dune messiah movie will show forsure if this franchise will be good or really really dumbed down
Not discounting your opinion, but I think the Dune II movie balanced this very well. I was worried the film would not be able to convey all the machinations and complexities of the Bene Gesserit skills, convey it as a 'prophecy' yet also show how Paul is headed toward becoming the Kwisatz Haderach. From people I asked who never read the books and didn't really know anything about Dune, they seemed to understand these elements from the books, as portrayed in the film, pretty well, so for that I give a lot of credit to Villeneuve. It's part religious propaganda, part prophecy, and in my opinion, also part prescience in the skills of the Bene Gesserit. It's a prophecy, but Jessica / Paul / the BG actually made it become reality. You say they don't practice prescience, however I believe the true reverend mothers do possess it to some degree, after all to plan all of that for thousands of years, they most likely have some form of prescience, even if it's not directly stated in the books.
I'd say when Paul takes the water of life, it might not matter if it's exactly Chani's tears or someone close to him or just another small dose of water of life to 'wake him up', either way Chani fulfills all those things and Jessica probably made her do that to continue the 'prophecy' and also because she knows Chani cares for him and vice versa.
My guess is that it was a wb executive who made the changes. All that as it was written bs was probably the directors cry for help. Wb is notorious for taking the creative aspect away from their directors.
I’m coming back to this thread because I just rewatched Dune 2 last night and I think I better understand that scene now:
Paul when he’s unconscious is in a sort of state of limbo; he is capable of not dying from the poison but he can’t figure out how to convert it as a reverend mother can. In order to complete the process, he needed somebody to guide him. When Chani combines her tears with the drops, she converts it and then by giving it to Paul shows him the blueprint for how to do it. In the books Chani is the Sayyadina next in line to become Reverend Mother if Jessica fails so she has been trained to convert the poison. The conversation between her and Jessica in the scene is basically them arguing about which one of them should do it for Paul. Jessica wants Chani to do it because it would be another piece of evidence of the BG-planted prophecy and give Paul even more weight with the Fremen. Chani doesn’t want to take part in Paul going down the fundamentalist path and so she says Jessica should do it, but Jessica uses the voice on Chani to make her do it.
So basically it’s not specifically Chani or Jessica just somebody trained to do the conversion to guide his unconscious mind.
The Prophecy is **real**. It is not just BG superstition - it is BG visions given by the spice that lets them see the task before them. While Paul is the first person to genuinely see and shape the future in the present, anyone who uses the spice is capable of some tier of foresight (whether Navigators, Mentats, or BG Ladies) and the subconscious foresight is an order of magnitude more powerful than the conscious mind in Dune.
With that in mind, it's not that Chani woke Paul - it's that Paul knew when the right time to wake would be - just as for generations the Fremen who dreamt after years of spice exposure dreamed of the Mahdi. The BG stories may have laid a foundation, but it wasn't that which made it real. It already *was* real, it was meant to be.
I think Denis Villeneuve and Jon Spaihts just went with a cool idea, like they did with other parts of the books. I'm not a fan of the changes made or their interpretation although I do like the fact they spent more time showing the religious aspects.
I don't like the "Gen X" Frenen bits and the ridiculous disrespect Denis and others thought somehow could make sense. It is an abomination when compared to the serious nature of the Frenen and how they treated their traditions and faith.
Not a single one of them would ever act like Chani and friends did, even causing Stillgar to ask them to "shut up" because he was praying! Seriously silly inclusion. And it's a big part of the film and how it diverges. It's not realistic at all. I've worked with these cultures and MidEast religious groups, even tribes, and anyone acting like this wouldn't live long.
But it's a movie. And Sihaya means "desert springtime" and not "desert spring," even in the books. It is used by Leto II in the dogma he created with references to a reborn and greened desert, a holy springtime and return of Dune to its former glory.
So Chani's tears have nothing to do with prophecy in the books, but it was kinda cool, I'll admit. Like a magic trick, as if to create the illusion of, "Ooh that's what Herbert meant," like some arcane alchemy is being presented.
The books never answer any questions we might have about manipulation of the Fremen by Paul and his mother. They aren't victims either. Instead, they find themselves dropped literally into the desert, and the laps of these people. It's not pretty and a killing is one of the first things that happens.
Paul and Lady Jessica have only a surface knowledge, a book knowledge of Dune and the Fremen. They aren't slipping into roles they planned for in the books.
In the movie, LJ turns into some Mafia boss and starts using the voice on everyone, like a pissed off Yoda on a bender. The memes are easy to imagine.
And where are the darn weirding modules for Duncan Idaho's sake? The weapons were actually developed by the Bene Geserit to enhance the fighting technique. But whatever.
I feel like Chris Rock doing a radio show in the Fifth Element every time I discuss this movie.
"Denis sweetheart, what was that? It was BAD! It had no fire, no energy, no nothing! Y'know I got a Show to run here, and it must pop POP POP!
Yes, DV just made a movie that could endorse religious fanatism, instead of denouncing the mechanisms behind charismatic leaders. Some of us are disappointed in that, others assume that non readers of the books but viewers of the movies will put 2 and 2.
Having read all the way to Chapter House Dune and watched all the movies.
I see and feel that this version had the most copyright infringement strategy meetings than the Sci-Fi Channel's version. The true question is why.
I have found myself thinking about that part a lot, too. My interpretation of it is that Jessica saw an opportunity to make another event in Paul's life fit the prophecy, and took it--namely, forcing Chani to do it instead of helping Paul, herself. I believe that she could have done it, but waited for Chani. What if Chani hadn't shown up? Jessica would have done it. What about the prophecy? That's the thing about prophecies and believers-- they would still believe, and keep waiting for that part of the prophecy to be fulfilled in some other way. Keep in mind, there were already believers before Paul had "fulfilled" any of the prophecies. Each time he did something that could fit, the believers emphasized it and more were converted. But, so often, they use post hoc logic to fit things. "Restored to life by desert tears" could mean many, many things.
My interpretation both in the book and movie is that Paul was ‘lost’ in the spectacle of other memories during the water of life trial. Chani communicates with Paul via her DNA and this was the impetus he needed to focus on returning to consciousness.
I believe in the first book during this scene it states that Paul was indeed lost in the space time trance of Other Memories, and the drop of raw Water that Chani gave him acted as a reference point as to the actual current time and space.
So basically any tear would work and the prophecy would just be bent to the events? Does sound like the most plausible solution. Especially if you account the description of the darkness you can get lost in during the trance. Fits the tone much better, then BG actually predicting the future.
In the book there was no tear - a drop of raw, unchanged water of life brought him to his senses. Now, chani had that idea and Jessica had no clue, which I think is very interesting for the book angle. How would Jessica, with thousands of saayadina in her head, not know, but chani would?
In the book, it's also made clear that Jessica had no idea what had actually happened to him - she thought the Harkonnens had poisoned him. It's only Chani, with her closer understanding of him, who realised what he'd actually done.
Because no man had ever survived the trial before? No one had any insight into what would be necessary for Paul to survive because none had witnessed it.
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She was. But saayadina in training should be trumped by 10000 years of other memory from saayadina and fremen wild mothers, no?
I think I remember them saying Chani's full name in the movie, and that it literally means "desert spring". Therefore it had to be her tears. And it is a real prophecy, like you said this makes the issue of control or propaganda moot. I think an important fact to remember about reality (either fictional ones or non-fictional ones) is that just because something starts out as propaganda or a lie, that doesn't preclude the possibility of it becoming something true. With obvious exceptions to this like gravity and other measurable laws of physics/science. It is well known, if not seldom spoken of, that if enough people believe in a lie there is little practical difference between it and the truth. Case in point: the "court" of public opinion. See also: The Internet.
Tears are irrelevant. That’s just another bit of hokum in the prophecy and from a purely mystical standpoint something that would add an air of mystery for a people who have evolved to rarely shed tears. It probably snuck in over time from the Fremen themselves. The raw water of life is the important bit because it forces Paul to focus on the here and now so he can alter it or it will kill him.
When Chani asks Paul if he’s ok he says “thanks to you” and gives away the whole ruse. How does he know he woke up because of the spring tears and water of life? Because he was either in on it and/or knew Jessica was about to make a moment out of the whole thing to fulfill the “prophecy”.
One thing to remember is that the book and, to a possibly lesser extent, the movies are a deconstruction of messianic figures and heroes. Something of a cautionary tale against placing faith and trust in people blindly. So depicting a prophesy that is potentially fulfilled a number of different ways and still being used as 'proof' by those that believe is completely on brand for the overall message.
"He is too modest to admit, so he must be the Mahdi!" is a line that comes to mind. I think your explanation makes perfect sense. People fit things to their worldview, whether they're a result of that view or not. Even Paul, who resists the prophecy, outright denies he's the Mahdi right before Stilgar delivers that line, succumbs to it. Self-fulfilling prophecies are a real thing. Belief is powerful.
Keep in mind that Chani is also the daughter of Liet-Kynes who had a large influence on the Fremen traditions, bending them to his ecological plans for Arrakis. Prophecies lose a lot of their mystical quality when you see that it's just calling out the end result of a plan that was put into motion. I see Chani's role in it as the symbolic union of the BG plan and the Liet plan, with the KH leading the Fremen to Green Paradise
Not in the movies. It would make her too powerful and kinda against Villeneuves Vision. She is a warrior not a saayadina Edit: the second half of the commet is amazing
The prophecy is BG propaganda, that is a fact in the books and the movie. It’s not specific to Dune, it’s seeded on all susceptible worlds within the reach of the BG and is largely a “just in case we need it” measure. The scene with Chani is purely cinematic, it’s a movie shortcut to get across what’s happening simply and powerfully and economically as possible. Ultimately in the book her involvement saves Paul but it’s far less direct, the movie version turns it into something powerfully symbolic in a way that, in a book, might be trite. It is entirely reasonable to just assume Paul just happened to wake up at that moment and the tears had nothing to do with it, or to assume the prophecy is real if that floats your boat, Paul and Jessica’s interaction with the prophecy though is entirely with the foreknowledge of what it says and how and why it was created. It can still be real as well though if you like, the film deliberately plays with the ambiguity of it despite also outright stating it isn’t true, so believe it if you want but you’ll not get any answer about the mechanics of the magic at play, it’ll never be clearer than “it’s not real, or is it?”.
If you do assume that, it still makes for a head scratching huge coincidence And he probably wasn't faking it too. Just like in the books. Where he layed there barely alive for three weeks "A moment for you, three weeks for me"
You have no idea how many prophecies there are, the point is they are fitting the words into the events after the fact and Paul and Jessica and manipulating it to fit
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My gut is telling me that any deviation from the book regarding the Missionaria Protectiva/Panoplia Propheticus laid down on the Fremen will be used as a pivot into the plot of Dune 3 (Dune Messiah).
This was my assumption. One of the less confusing parts of Messiah was the corruption of Paul’s religion. I tend to think they’ll want to lean heavily on that plot line for the non book readers.
The missionaria Protectiva seeded these "prophecies" on worlds across the emperium. It's leverage the BG can use to control local populations. Also useful for individual BG to use to save themselves from sticky situations.
I think the implication in both the book and movie is that as opposed to other planets where the Missionaria Protectiva also seeded manufactured prophecies, on Dune they may actually be augmented with true prophecy due to the Fremen living their entire lives spiced out giving them some amount of limited prescience. I think the audience is supposed to be unsure at times whether it’s Paul/Jessica manipulating the prophecy to suit them or Paul is actually who Fremen prophecy foretold would come, like how Paul pretends to choose Muad’Dib naturally vs. him just actually knowing how to wear a stillsuit without being told
Jessica states many times that prophecy is planted by BG but it has mutated to horrific extents.
The fact that the Bene Gesserit planted that prophecy on the most important planet in the universe where the population is spiced up 24/7 just so a BG can use it to help her if she gets trapped or something seems pretty naive. For an organization whos plans are measured in centuries I expected more
True, and if the spice was known before the Butlerian Jihad, they had whole lot of time to do lot better.
Yeah I think it was just hubris, similar to them thinking they would be able to control a kwisatz haderach once they produced him. I love that Jessica in the book is like “heh these quaint backwater hicks even call their matriarchs reverend mothers how cute” and then after the water of life ritual is like “oh fuck but they actually meant it for real”
The arrogance is that the Bene Gesserit dismiss the Fremen Sayaddinas as being 'wild' Bene Gesserit sisters, when, given the importance of Arrakis and the Spice to the way everything in the universe works, it's actually far more likely that the Bene Gesserit were an offshoot of the Sayaddinas that sold out and went corporate
And it would make total sense for them to prepare everything for them to take over Arrakis. Ultimate power over spice is the ultimate power at the end.
BG explicitly don't want that. They want the Kwisat Haderach.
The Bene Gessetti do not want direct control over the universe, their goal is to evolve mankind and eliminate dependencies like the reliance of spice which is a weakness. They want a human (KH) who can see the way forward with the additional memories of the past from the male line, Paul actually opts not to follow the path that will save humanity because of the sacrifice required. His son Leto II is the one who actually does that.
This was my biggest gripe as well. But “desert spring tears” could just be the water of life. The place where they make it is in a desert spring where they drown the worm.
That's a damn good point. Would also create a logical bridge between what's happening and Chanis second name being Desert Tears. All names have meaning and they do evolve with culture. Thus the new names of the given culture being inspired from the ethos. The prophecy saying Desert spring tears had no implications of actual person bearing that name and implied only the "tears" of dying Shai Hulud. Chanis secret name being pure coincidence.
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I would have to agree. He watered down the fatalist / overarching political elements to make it more digestible as a movie by focusing on the religious zealot aspects. Which is fine, it works well in movie format but isn't nearly as strong as the book IMO.
That’s funny, I came away with the exact opposite interpretation—that the book made the prophecy have much more of a religious tint than the movies. To me, it was very clear in the films that any prophecy was put into Dune by the BG, and that any Fremen who believed was tricked (for lack of a better word) by it. The book, even though it had the same attitude towards the prophecy, seemed to imply that the fact that the KH and the Lisan al-Gaib were the same person, who also took the throne, is more than just coincidence. From Appendix III to Dune: “In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware!”
I have thought a lot about this scene, too. If I were watching it as a naive viewer who hasn't read the books, I think this would have been my interpretation: Paul was faking. He knew about the desert spring prophecy, so he faked being in a coma, knowing that having Chani wake him would further legitimize him to all the Fremen. Jessica knew or at least suspected that he was faking. Knowing how the scene went down in the books makes me question this interpretation so I really don't know where the movie was going with it. I don't think it was meant to be a "real" prophecy though.
The prophecy was always real. The BG used spice to see a hazy future where they create the KH. They seeded that story across the galaxy to prepare the way for him to reshape the Imperium, the Lisan Al-Ghaib is as real as Tesla FSD, coming soon (tm) On Arrakis the trouble was that everyone was huffing spice in the very air so their religion got more accurate because the visions the Fremen saw were more accurate than the BG tales. The fact is by the time Paul arrives their visions at large have understood what is going to happen, and so it does. The foretelling is of factual events.
This is a far tighter interpretation than most are giving. I think it's key to understand the part about how the Fremen generally have low level prescience due to constant spice exposure. With that in mind, you can see how collective prescience is arguably selecting a reality in much the same way that Paul ultimately does as the KH. It's just drifting closer and closer over time to rhe specific future from all the possible futures rather than being more specifically determined through key in/actions.
I agree this feels like the best answer, plus it also blurs the lines between fake/ real prophesy. If the BG and Fremen actually saw the future, then it's a self fulfilling prophesy. Paul and Jessica did the things they were predicted to do because it was predicted they would do them. The best part about this to me is that, it still leaves the religion as a matter of faith. If I was a Fremen and the curtain was pulled back, that doesn't negate Paul as the Messiah. If the BG could see a future where Paul does these things, then maybe the other parts of the prophesy are also true (i.e. paradise). Other people however may be turned off by the fact they were "lied" to. How can we trust the rest of the prophesy when it was fabricated?
That's an interesting perspective. What's your source? I'm not arguing, more like "what book do I need to read to get a better understanding of the situation?" :)
In the movie, the prophecy is explicitly not real, yet the symbolism is purposefully muddied enough to make viewers, and Fremen believers think it may be. The first thing is, Chani's tears are not what awakens Paul, but the last drop of the water of life that she mixes it with, or perhaps a mixture of the two somehow. The point being, it is communicated to us that this is more of a chemical reaction than a magical prophecy. The second point about the prophecy, is that we the viewers do not know the whole of it. It seems to us like everything mentioned is being fulfilled, when in all likelihood, there are books and books of prophecy written over thousands of years, and Paul is hitting enough of the big beats to keep the Fremen believing in him. If he fell in love with someone named Shadegiving Cliff, there could very well be another passage that says the "sweat of the Shadegiving Cliff restored life on his voyage in a strange land", and then Shadgiving Cliff could be compelled by Jessica to take the sweat from her brow and mix it with the water of life to revive Paul. In other words, much of the prophecy is probably unsaid or ignored, or treated as more metaphorical, but when something happens word for word, it is "as written". The third thing is, when the prophecy is less specific, everything Paul does is interpreted as prophecy by believers. Boots slip fashion, denying leadership, riding a big worm (or was it the biggest?). Even in the cave of birds scene in the movie, Fremen aren't ready to buy it, but by sheer will and display of power, in the right time and place, they are won over. TL;DR: This Prophecy is how they enslave us. How they domina—
After reading all the comments I've decided the correct way forward is view the movie through the lens of the *unreliable narrator*. We need to treat everyone in the movie like a liar and and ask ourselves what things happened off screen. 1. Paul says he "slips" his stillsuit because it "seemed right". This could be a lie. He watched a documentary about Arrakis that taught him to sandwalk. Surely they also covered stillsuits. Maybe he just didn't want to admit that. 2. Paul stops himself from "man-splaining" sand walking to Chani, an indigenous person who obviously knows how to sandwalk. Today's audience probably assumed Paul just caught himself before committing a faux pas, but what if Paul *actually knows better*. He starts to cite anthropologists. What if those anthropologists have studied many different tribes and cross referenced their styles to distill the core style of sandwalking? Paul's style might look funny to Chani's particular subculture, but maybe it's actually close enough that *any* sub-culture would recognize it as "good enough". Hence fulfilling the prophesy that he "knows their ways" no matter who he met. 3. The BG know how to transmute poison. Maybe Paul does too. The audience assumes that Chani's tears did something to wake Paul. What if this is just classic smoke and mirrors. Jessica (or Paul) may have simply caused Paul to awaken at the proper moment to make it look like the tears were important. Everything I said might be false. That's not the point. The point is once you start interpreting the movie as "this is what they want me to see" (propaganda) and start asking "what don't they want me to see" it opens up a lot more possibilities. This skeptical view point is also in line with the movies themes of "this is how they control us".
There’s no actual prophecy, just a tool for him and Jessica to use to their advantage. Paul wasn’t awaken from the trance by the tear, but because he waited for Chani to act accordingly to the « prophecy », playing on the faith of everyone present in the room. You can see how he looks around after the act, he’s confirming that scheme worked and Chani slapped him because she understood he and his mom used her for that.
this is not how it was. He was in a coma for three weeks. The Fremen wanted to take his water, but Jessica told them he was 'gathering his holy powers before battle". Only HIS Fedaykin, (and they were his, he created them) protected him
In the book, yes. But I was answering to the interpretation that DV was giving credence to the prophecy in the movie adaptation, while it was actually a well played move from the characters to sway the Fremen in their own beliefs.
> Paul wasn’t awaken from the trance by the tear, but because he waited for Chani This was also my take away from the film. Villeneuve doesn’t seem to be a fan of gratuitous dialog, which poses some storytelling challenges in a universe as rich as Dune. What we see is that Paul resisted going south for fear of fulfilling his visions of the holy war. In his conversation with Gurney Halleck about going south and gaining control of the Fremen fighters, Paul quips “I’m afraid to gain it”. This holds until the destruction of Sietch Tabr, at which point, it’s painfully clear that he has to embrace the role of Lisan Al-Gaib in order to exact his revenge. Earlier in the film, Paul comments on how Jessica was trained on poison transmutation when she takes the worm bile. Presumably Jessica trained Paul too (prana-bindu in the novels). The changes from the “bile+transmutation=water of life” to the “Chani tear” was the film’s way to have Paul consciously play into the prophecy and an elegant way to avoid a cringy, Matrix-style, spice orgy.
Oooooohhhh I really like this interpretation a lot. I took the slap as a regular relationship "you asshole, do you know how worried I was about you!?" kinda slap, but I like the idea of Chani being aware that he just used her to fulfill part of the prophecy.
I wonder about that i mean Paul can see the future, the next book is all about people with various amounts of precognition fucking around with prescience. is it so crazy that a bene geserit mother sent to bend the indigenous religions to the sister hoods use when confronted with massive amounts of spice might not see glimpses of the future and incorporate them into the religion?
When I was watching Dune part two a second time, I thought that maybe Chani’s tears had enough Fremen genetic material to give Paul the information he needed to convert the Water of Life. Maybe it could’ve been any Fremen tear, but the fact that Chani went along with the prophecy makes the audience say “oh man the prophecy IS true!!” yet again. It goes with the whole theme of telling the audience that it’s a fake prophecy but the audience STILL believes Paul is the Chosen One. Wow. Denis totally gets dune.
>but the fact that Chani went along with the prophecy makes the audience say “oh man the prophecy IS true!!” yet again But she doesn't go along with it. It took Jessica forcing her to do it. Chani, I assume, is well aware of the general prophecy. She was named after it. I'm not relgious in the least, but I still know all about Jesus, ya' know?
Yeah but she still got baptized, even though it was forced. Ya know
I personally think, as a screenwriter, its related directly to Villeneuve and his team simplifying the overarching complexities of the book, and meeting cinema-structure goals. The book ofc mentions the use of the religious seeding in larger expanse than the films, for quite a lot of reasons. In screenwriting, you have on average about 1 page per minute as a sort of guide line. When you only have around 150 pages per film, you have to remove, condense, and simplify a very large portion of the book and its story. When this is the case, plot-heavy scenes and points take priority over smaller traditions, rituals, etc in terms of screen time. Tbh, for how much was needed to be told in the last half of the book they fit a shit ton in; which of course came with a little tweaking of the lore to fit this screen adaptation. think of it more like a checklist: - Tell & show the audience the BG layed a false religion to use the people for their own goods. - Show the audience Jessica's role and the two of them using the "prophecies" to back up paul's goals. - Show growing support / societal interactions in relation to the use of this prophecy; Both positive and negative. Rather than spend too much time focusing on the BG, they simply informed the audience of the fact the prophecy was for their own good. Thus, time to move on to the next part of the plot. instead of spending extra screen time overexplaining the details and content of the religious tool from the book, I'm sure they used the "prophecy" to help guide people along with an easier story. It keeps it less cluttered when you think of a prophecy, rather than trying to give the audience too much. Especially when it comes to introducing new viewers / fans, you have to help them understand even if that means changing the book a bit. For example: Its just as if I showed people a car with 200 buttons and tell them they control the drive mechanism. Instead, I would show them a 3 button vehicle and say: this is start, stop, and neutral. While ultimately providing the same function, it makes it easier for the less familiar perspective. BUT! Dont get me wrong, I will say the whole "desert spring tears" was unexpected and kinda weird. I feel like they just used that to develop the relation of relevance for Chani in the story. Showing the bond and importance they both share to each other in their love. It also plays into "giving water to the dead". I think it would have been simply easier for them to stick to how the book had it. Just have Chani about to put a drop of water in his mouth as he opens his eyes, then explains his mothers teachings saved him (poison transmutation).
Honestly, it's movie shorthand. Portraying Paul's spice-visions as actual factual prophecy (rather than glimpses of maybe-futures), consolidating the messiah mythology into those prophecies (rather than having a bunch of disparate missionaria threads being cynically manipulated around budding prescience), having Paul's recovery be according to prophecy (rather than smart biological manipulation)... it's all done to enable it to be shown in an entirely visual medium. Taking in the water of life and biologically transmuting it with Bene Gesserit metabolic control is fascinating to read about, but completely nothing to watch. There's nothing to see, no visual indicator. You *could* do that via CG visualisation sequences and voice-overs, but that leaves a very important character point relegated to being an *explanation* rather than an *experience*. Tying everything into the prophecy visions is an elegant way to link it all in a way that both a) the audience can intuit, and b) is easily shown on screen via actions. The fallout of this, as you've noted, is that it makes the prophecies of Muad'dib *actual* prophecies - but then, we're in a setting where cinnamon gives you precognition, so that's not exactly a plot hole, just a change.
This is scene was the straw that broke the camels back for me. It was one choice made for style without substance too many by that point. I don’t think there is any meaning to it at all, really. I think it just seemed “cool”. Even the propaganda angle of it doesn’t make sense.
Chani was thrown under the bus and absolutely no words for Jessica. She was neither a good spouse/concubine or a mother to Paul and Alia. Chani should have continued to walk away from this situation but of course, she cannot.
I wish the movies had spent more time on her character—and others—in Part One. Her love for the Duke and the choices she made out of that love—plus the pain she felt as being held at concubine status, although she understood the political necessity—were crucial to humanizing her and making her more than just Paul’s mom.
They ruined Jessica's character in the process of elevating Chani's. Jessica is a formidable, flawed, and confliced character in the book. She has a lot more empathy for the Fremen. The book goes to lengths to explain the traumatic history of the Fremen through Jessica's spice agony experience. Ramallo basically saves Jessica's unborn child. In the movie she undergoes this process and then turns on the Fremen. She is horror movie evil and at times seems like a puppet of evil Alia, who is also much more nuanced in the book. I hate what they did, a lot.
I agree. She was actually a friend and role model to Chani and ultimately preps her for Paul’s marriage to Irulan exactly to avoid the ending they chose for the movie.
My take on why religion and prophecy was highlighted is that it is needed for the accelerated timeline. In the books, it takes years for Paul to become emperor after joining the Fremen. In the movie, it’s a few months. The only way for that to happen is if there are some wild religious beliefs that get played up With Chani saving Paul, my understanding is that was all theater done to help with the religious acceptance. Jessica enabled it, and Paul played along
I didn't get this impression at all.
My take is that the line about spring tears is purposely vague. Could mean lots of things. The Missionaria Protectiva puts a lot of loaded ideas into cultures that are designed to be utilized by BG. The way they can be utilized can vary from situation to situation, and there are common patterns recognizable and usable by any trained BG. Chani's tears may not have been necessary... Just a drop of the water of life. If Jessica knew that a drop would do it, it's possible she waited for Chani to apply it with a tear to fulfill the prophecy. That is in line with the manipulative nature of her personality and the fact she's willing to risk a lot to achieve her goals. DV also leaves a lot open and vague. I think he did a really good job with the movies.
The new show should tell us more about Villeneuve’s prophecy!
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Take it with the app developers, I added them. I'll edit when I get home...
You need to either add two spaces at the end or an empty line in between. It's Markdown, not plaintext
Chani can change the water in the book because she is a priestess, a very powerful one who was in line to be Reverend Mother before Jessica. The book implies her "love saved Maudib" It is never a tear in the book
When Paul and Chani are talking alone on top of the dune, she says her name means “desert spring”. Then after Paul takes the water of life, Chani uses her tears to wake Paul. Because the prophecy states “He will awaken with the tears of the desert spring “
That’s the problem that OP is staying, because that is not at all what happened. The prophecy is fake, and the tears had nothing to do with Paul waking up. But the movie doesn’t do a good job showing that
Technically we don’t even know if what Jessica said is actually part of the prophecy. It’s never said that it was written down anywhere, presumably the reverend mothers are the ones who “know it” but since it all stems from the Bene Gesserit, who is to say they aren’t adding details as it fits their situation? Unless I’m mistaken, Chani just says something like “my name is just part of some prophecy,” but at this point it has already been shown she is aware of the Lisan al-Gaib prophecy, so why say it like that? It’s possible it’s only loosely connected in some vague way, or not even directly to the Lisan al-Gaib, and Jessica just creates that connection in the moment.
The Bene Gesserit created the prophecies but they also interpret the prophecies. The BG created a bunch of different prophecies and the prophecies are vague enough to be interpreted in different ways. When the BG's chosen messiah does something significant, the reverend mother can pick a quote from the dozens or hundreds prophecies they've planted and say that the messiah has fulfilled it. If Paul had been awoken by something else, instead of the "desert spring tears" line, Jessica could have cited some other prophecy that matched more closely to what happened and say Paul fulfilled that prophecy.
Chanis Fremen name is Sihaya which translates to “desert spring” apparently it was written that “tears from the desert spring” would save him? I’m still a little foggy on that part myself.
Water in the Desert
I don't think Chani made any difference. Paul just did it himself and waited for her to use her for the prophecy. That is why she is extra mad at him, she feels used.
I don't think it matters that much. I think the main takeaway from this scene in both the novel and the film is the religious implications it holds for the Fremen, and how Paul further solidifies himself as their Mahdi. In the novel, only Jessica and the higher-ranking Fremen know that Paul is in a coma, so the religious aspect comes after he wakes up, with Korba having secretly listened to what he saw in his trance and spreading these rumours to the others. In the film it shifts away from this to make the actual ritual of him waking up adding the religious implications while also involving Chani in the story. This makes her role in the story bigger, something Villeneuve finds very important for the film, and also makes the scene more public and therefore easier to visually depict than, as the book does it, through an imagined word-of-mouth spread of Paul's messianic powers. I agree with Kinbote808 and SmokyDragonDish, it's one of those necessary changes to adapt the story to film which keeps the implications but doesn't need to be completely explained, although hopefully it will be expounded on in Messiah.
honestly, with all the talk about villeneuve portraying paul as a warning, it seemed like the exact opposite. i haven't read the books yet, but i knew going into the film that paul is a fake prophet. but still, at times i questioned the fact. if i hadn't known that it's supposed to be fake beforehand, i'd fully believe him to be messiah, even despite chani and her northern friend serving as the voices of reason. the fact that paul somehow claimed the shai hulud, how could that happen on accident? and like you said, chani awakening him so quickly. the fact that this particular girl, paul's peer, happened to be his romantic interest AND fit the prophecy with her name, it all leaves me puzzled. too many happy accidents at once, even though i know it's all a lie
In the books, there's a line during one of Liet-Kines's scenes, "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than to fall into the hands of a Hero." It's not that Paul is a fake, it's that he was a little messiah acorn planted in soil that was well prepared to grow a big messiah oak tree, and that messiah oak trees aren't all they're cracked up to be.
In the movie they say it’s the tears of the desert spring that will awaken him from the water of life. Earlier in the movie chani tells Paul that her name translates to…..desert spring. That’s how she knew.
I think this is the best comment I’ve seen on this page, I think it’s impossible to tell now but depending on how they handle the dune messiah movie will show forsure if this franchise will be good or really really dumbed down
Not discounting your opinion, but I think the Dune II movie balanced this very well. I was worried the film would not be able to convey all the machinations and complexities of the Bene Gesserit skills, convey it as a 'prophecy' yet also show how Paul is headed toward becoming the Kwisatz Haderach. From people I asked who never read the books and didn't really know anything about Dune, they seemed to understand these elements from the books, as portrayed in the film, pretty well, so for that I give a lot of credit to Villeneuve. It's part religious propaganda, part prophecy, and in my opinion, also part prescience in the skills of the Bene Gesserit. It's a prophecy, but Jessica / Paul / the BG actually made it become reality. You say they don't practice prescience, however I believe the true reverend mothers do possess it to some degree, after all to plan all of that for thousands of years, they most likely have some form of prescience, even if it's not directly stated in the books. I'd say when Paul takes the water of life, it might not matter if it's exactly Chani's tears or someone close to him or just another small dose of water of life to 'wake him up', either way Chani fulfills all those things and Jessica probably made her do that to continue the 'prophecy' and also because she knows Chani cares for him and vice versa.
My guess is that it was a wb executive who made the changes. All that as it was written bs was probably the directors cry for help. Wb is notorious for taking the creative aspect away from their directors.
Also I thought the 2nd film was horrible
I’m coming back to this thread because I just rewatched Dune 2 last night and I think I better understand that scene now: Paul when he’s unconscious is in a sort of state of limbo; he is capable of not dying from the poison but he can’t figure out how to convert it as a reverend mother can. In order to complete the process, he needed somebody to guide him. When Chani combines her tears with the drops, she converts it and then by giving it to Paul shows him the blueprint for how to do it. In the books Chani is the Sayyadina next in line to become Reverend Mother if Jessica fails so she has been trained to convert the poison. The conversation between her and Jessica in the scene is basically them arguing about which one of them should do it for Paul. Jessica wants Chani to do it because it would be another piece of evidence of the BG-planted prophecy and give Paul even more weight with the Fremen. Chani doesn’t want to take part in Paul going down the fundamentalist path and so she says Jessica should do it, but Jessica uses the voice on Chani to make her do it. So basically it’s not specifically Chani or Jessica just somebody trained to do the conversion to guide his unconscious mind.
The Prophecy is **real**. It is not just BG superstition - it is BG visions given by the spice that lets them see the task before them. While Paul is the first person to genuinely see and shape the future in the present, anyone who uses the spice is capable of some tier of foresight (whether Navigators, Mentats, or BG Ladies) and the subconscious foresight is an order of magnitude more powerful than the conscious mind in Dune. With that in mind, it's not that Chani woke Paul - it's that Paul knew when the right time to wake would be - just as for generations the Fremen who dreamt after years of spice exposure dreamed of the Mahdi. The BG stories may have laid a foundation, but it wasn't that which made it real. It already *was* real, it was meant to be.
I think Denis Villeneuve and Jon Spaihts just went with a cool idea, like they did with other parts of the books. I'm not a fan of the changes made or their interpretation although I do like the fact they spent more time showing the religious aspects. I don't like the "Gen X" Frenen bits and the ridiculous disrespect Denis and others thought somehow could make sense. It is an abomination when compared to the serious nature of the Frenen and how they treated their traditions and faith. Not a single one of them would ever act like Chani and friends did, even causing Stillgar to ask them to "shut up" because he was praying! Seriously silly inclusion. And it's a big part of the film and how it diverges. It's not realistic at all. I've worked with these cultures and MidEast religious groups, even tribes, and anyone acting like this wouldn't live long. But it's a movie. And Sihaya means "desert springtime" and not "desert spring," even in the books. It is used by Leto II in the dogma he created with references to a reborn and greened desert, a holy springtime and return of Dune to its former glory. So Chani's tears have nothing to do with prophecy in the books, but it was kinda cool, I'll admit. Like a magic trick, as if to create the illusion of, "Ooh that's what Herbert meant," like some arcane alchemy is being presented. The books never answer any questions we might have about manipulation of the Fremen by Paul and his mother. They aren't victims either. Instead, they find themselves dropped literally into the desert, and the laps of these people. It's not pretty and a killing is one of the first things that happens. Paul and Lady Jessica have only a surface knowledge, a book knowledge of Dune and the Fremen. They aren't slipping into roles they planned for in the books. In the movie, LJ turns into some Mafia boss and starts using the voice on everyone, like a pissed off Yoda on a bender. The memes are easy to imagine. And where are the darn weirding modules for Duncan Idaho's sake? The weapons were actually developed by the Bene Geserit to enhance the fighting technique. But whatever. I feel like Chris Rock doing a radio show in the Fifth Element every time I discuss this movie. "Denis sweetheart, what was that? It was BAD! It had no fire, no energy, no nothing! Y'know I got a Show to run here, and it must pop POP POP!
Yes, DV just made a movie that could endorse religious fanatism, instead of denouncing the mechanisms behind charismatic leaders. Some of us are disappointed in that, others assume that non readers of the books but viewers of the movies will put 2 and 2.
Did you know that you can hit the Enter button twice to create a new paragraph? Fun tip.
Gotcha, I don't post a lot.
Having read all the way to Chapter House Dune and watched all the movies. I see and feel that this version had the most copyright infringement strategy meetings than the Sci-Fi Channel's version. The true question is why.