True. Dealerships marked up when there was a shortage. Heck...on some models , the dealers probably made more money than the manufacturer.
Of course...the financing is the more lucrative portion.
If they don’t finance they don’t make much at all, typically. They also have to pay interest on vehicles sitting on the lot - look up floor planning.
I’d actually argue that the American financial system is equally or more to blame than OEMs or car dealers.
I went to a Toyota dealership when I was looking into getting a rav4 prime, but they don’t make many of those for some reason and the demand was insane, so the dealership decided to add 5k to the price “just because they could”. I will never, for the rest of my life, buy a Toyota for that reason.
That should be illegal and dealerships absolutely need to be deleted.
Car dealerships in the USA are basically a legally-protected organized crime if there is such a term. LOL. They don't offer values that a manufacturer can't provide and is just a money extraction racket from car buyers.
F those “markups,” nothing but bullshit. When I bought my Charger, new Scat packs were going for 60 grand. They probably still are. I found a 2 year old one with 12,000 miles on it for 42K. No way I’ll buy new for the foreseeable future.
They won’t anytime soon. I sell e-commerce software into the industry and I can tell you the OEMs have zero desire to deal with sales and service (beyond the lucrative practice of OEM captive lending, that is).
Various brands are working towards building more programs to allow consumers to work deals on their own time and in a more transparent manner. The issue is, so long as it’s legal, some old school dealer will always be willing to post a cheaper price to lure people in. This is why dealers are hesitant to adopt pricing transparency.
The sad thing is, it works - by the time most consumers have driven to yet another dealer to buy a car, 9/10 times they’ll just willingly get dicked around and pay the same or more as they might elsewhere just to get it over with.
6B. WTF.
Funny...when they are low on cash, they ask the govt to bail them out and cut benefits.
I wish the govt would tax the money spent on stock buy backs a little more. (Think there is a 1% charge?)
Maybe bump up to 10% and put it in the fund used to bail out pension plans.
It is almost as though profits are private but losses are socialised
Just make it so that 90% is taken and spread evenly between all employees before shareholders get their cut.
If you're truly doing so well and aren't looking to expand then reward your workers.
This entire financial system is a Ponzi scheme. Why don’t all of you see that?
I’m honestly shocked people haven’t done a nationwide boycott yet just because.
You want prices to come down fast permanently, do that.
Exactly!!! this shit is happening everywhere... Executives making record profits and pay, prices of everything skyrocketing and record stock buybacks.
Capitalism has become a disease at this point.
In the short term.
Automakers and their suppliers don't make their number for a few quarters, that triggers a layoff which dominos into shiat economy and deflationary/layoff spiral.
A few reasons why I'm still driving my 2009 Honda Accord:
- It has physical buttons
- It does not require a subscription or app of any kind and I am not treated like a cow whose milk is to be extracted perpetually
- It does not collect and sell my data (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/)
- It is easy to do basic maintenance on. I've done a few rounds myself.
- At most, the cost of maintenance is ~$1000/yr. It is not always consistently $1000 every year but more sporadic and depends more on mileage of items being worn out at different intervals.
- It is paid off. There is no perpetual car payment. New cars are ever increasingly more expensive.
Overall, the net cost is significantly less than that of a new car that will be used to nickle and dime me with subscriptions / apps and tries to collect my information to sell to advertisers and insurance companies.
So yeah, fuck them. Get their shits right and the consumers will come.
Stealing my property, my data, is a deal breaker for me. I bought the car, it’s not like Reddit or Google where I trade my data to use the service. The car harvesting your data does nothing for me.
I was going to chime in that insurance would also be cheaper.
I don’t get why people want to have a new car so often, I would rather have lower insurance cost and no car payment for 5 or more years and run my car into the ground.
A coworker of mine has a Nissan extera with 240,000 miles on it and it runs great.
I'll bet that Accord is nice to drive, with good visibility, excellent handling, a quiet cabin and a high level of trim. Probably fits in a parking place, too.
It's not bad. All the other aspects you mentioned are pretty decent, with the exception for the cabin, which isn't exactly quiet but hey it's a 15 years old car.
It gets me from point A to point B safely and I don't lose money or sleep over it. It should last me at least another 100-200k miles if I keep maintaining it at regular interval.
That's my hope, that my current car will last long enough until I can move somewhere with better public transportation infrastructure and can bike or ebike everywhere.
Unfortunately most of America's cities are still very much designed for and required cars to get around at the moment.
I would still be driving my Mazda from 2010 but it decided to throw a rod last summer and my mechanic advised against throwing a new engine in since there could be other things that would pop up later and I figured I didn’t wanna throw good money after bad.
Yeah that sucks, I've heard older generation Mazda tend to have reliability issues, not sure about the more recent generations.
Generally though, most older Toyota's and Honda's tend to still be fairly reliable if you're in the market for older cars. Where I live, if I see an older car on the road, it is often a Honda, a Toyota, or an old Subaru.
I love my 2013 Wrangler. And even that has too much touchscreen for my taste.
That subscription thing is too real - and disgusting. Toyota wants $8+ a month to use the phone as a spare key? And to activate the remote start? Fuck no.
Same reasons I keep my 2006 Lexus. Paid off and no issues except every few years to replace things that have worn out. Simple maintenance and rides like a charm. No computers needed really lol
A lot of certified pre owned vehicles are practically the same price as new these days, depending on the model. Corolla hybrid, ford maverick, crv/rav4, late model civics. If they are off lease the dealers basically bring the price down 1-2k from new. So you lose most of the warranty period, and save barely anything.
And then the finance costs are higher on a used car, even certified pre-owned, vs a new car. It’s brutal out there.
I wonder if it’s because people aren’t interested in arguing with some obnoxious guy with a buzz cut and goatee over $1200 worth of “dealer installed options” like nitrogen in the tires and “security etching” on the windshield, with the presumption that you also have to go in knowing they are giving you a shitty price off the bat that you have to spend 3 hours haggling down…
No, that definitely couldn’t be it
I had some kid who didn't look old enough to drink try and convince me this 10+ year-old used vehicle was absolutely worth an extra $500, because the dealership replaced the standard back-up light with one that blinks.
Me: Please remove it. That sounds annoying as shit.
When I bought my used car. I was really close to paying it off, the dealership called me. "Hey we saw you were about to pay your car off, when are you planning to bring it in to get a new one?"
Uh...Never?? That's why I bought it. So I wouldn't have a car payment forever...the fk??!???? The audacity of dealerships
Funny you mentioned that, around 2020-2021 or so when prices of cars both old and new were rising, the local Honda dealership emailed AND called me saying they wanted to buy my back then 12 years old Honda.
I said hell nah, I'm gonna drive this shit into the ground.
Yeah. Think was a lot of dealership BS. But agree. The manufacturers hiked a lot and made some bucks.
Of course they used the profits to buy back their stock.
If only the companies knew things go in cycles. Oh yeah..they do.
When things are going well, execs make $$$.
When not so much, the govt has to bail them out and employee pensions get raided.
Nice scam.
No, they really can't they don't belong to the manufacturer after it's turned over to the shipping company at the factory gate. The only real option they have is refusing to sell the dealership cars, which is a nuclear option
Yeah. At best it is MSRp. The S is for Suggested.
I am glad the manufacturers raised prices..than let the dealers take all the extra cash.
And when things are going not so well .they should use the savings to reduce the prices. (Of course the car manufacturers blew the extra profits on stock but back)
Dude, we must (the buyers) unite and refuse to entertain any subscription ideas the auto industry has to offer. I never want to pay a a monthly subscription in order to use certain features on my vehicle. Also, we should fight for vehicles that have nice features but aren’t dependent on electronics.
Long story short buyers are the key to cooling prices. Not corporate gouging, not federal handouts. People can choose to stop buying and prices will be forced to decrease. Looks like the consumer is finally figuring that out.
I agree with the sentiment but federal policy does impact buyer behavior.
People are buying based on monthly payments and low interest rates encourages purchasing at higher prices.
My mother was addicted to credit cards. The "it's not the price it's the payments" thing makes my skin crawl. If "cash is king," then why don't you wash it? Why do you want me on the hook for five years? When we're haggling the car and the finance guy shows up, I just want to leave.
Cars are "durable goods," or products that do not quickly wear out and are useful over a long period of time. Other durable goods include home appliances, furniture, sports equipment, and even toys.
According to Smoke, durable goods are already in a recession due to deflation.
Lmao, yes.
I know it's not American-made but a Range Rover pretty much falls apart after 50k miles. Even before reaching that, I know an owner who probably drove a loaner more since her RR kept spending time in the shop.
Pretty fair point, unless your lucky like me and land that 1 car that was made right and still on the road 22 years later (02 Ford Ranger Supercab) with shockingly little maint other than basics.
I gave mine to my niece recently to use and got a small used beater for work driving. Ranger is a bit gas heavy but it still runs well. Rare to have a car that I got when she was around 3 yrs old. She loved my truck since she was a toddler. I really miss the light truck version of rangers.
I personally would buy a new car if it was cost effective. I wish I could get a low $ Chinese electric or a hilux, or buy directly from the manufacturer. Stupid dealership lobbyists and government force us to use a middle man who adds no value.
What good cars are even left to buy? If I won $10 million (any less, and I'm getting a good used car) I'd be hard pressed to find an American car that ticked all my boxes. And - yes - there's some cope in that headline. "People are \_not\_ buying new cars". Also - from the article - wtf is 'revenge spending'?
Good. Fuck 'em. Cars cost way too much for young people now. I realize there was and is a great deal of inflation. That is not the auto makers fault. My issue is how they advertise models with a base price and some other lower trim levels, but don't make any/hardly of those versions. They only offer the fully loaded trim models that cost significantly more. If they do not make the base and lower trim models, they shouldn't be allowed to advertise them. There are hardly any sub $25k new cars now, whereas there were at least a dozen prior to covid.
In 2022 we were shopping for a taller car that our mother could get into and out of easier then my civic. We looked at a CRV, a forrester, and a RAV4. We were paying cash but the Subaru dealer wouldn’t discuss the price until after we filled out a credit application (we both have 850 scores) because he said the price was dependent on our credit. The Toyota dealer showed us the rav4 then said “we have an offer on this one for $10,000 over MSRP but if you can beat that it’s yours.”
The Honda dealer sold us the car for MSRP so we bought it.
Fuck car dealers. Fuck regulations that prohibit buying directly from manufacturers, fuck the auto industry in whole. This couldn’t happen to a worse pack of scumbags.
Dealerships HATE EVs
Dealerships make most of their money not from selling cars but from servicing the cars they sell
EVs have a fraction of the moving parts of a gas powered car, and that means a fraction of the service is required, and there goes biggest part of the dealership's business
I am ok with them making some money on servicing etc. But it is absurd when they make so much and made things worse by marking yup so much
Problem is state laws in US. That's is why you cannot order online from , say, Ford
Because they are working with big oil… Nothing happens by chance in business… Now you have cheap Chinese electric cars, and guess what, they found an excuse to stop them.
Of course. Even people who flip burgers for a living can afford a Tesla.
Average folk should just pick themselves up from their bootstraps and buy a Tesla.
You dont need a choice, just give up your money for an overpriced product.
There are some Chinese EVs for 10K. Except Uncle Sam has added thigh tariffs (100%?) . Not all Chinese EVs are good. But from what I understand, some are very good.
Nah. The government has added high tariffs on Chinese EV imports -
So we won't be getting those 10K EVs.
No reason EVs have to be that expensive .
The Chinese stuff is pretty good (not all)
But then china makes lot more vehicles than the US now
So this was bound to happen.
I bought a 2016 Honda Civic in 2021 and paid more than they were charging in 2016 for a new one. Still mad about it. When the price of your product skyrockets and interest rates are high then guess what, fewer people will buy.
GOOD!
Manufacturers and dealers spent years screwing buyers every way possible.
It is FAR beyond ‘about goddamned time’ some of these manufacturers, their shareholders, CEOs, dealers, and salespeople got the royal shafting that they have so much more than earned.
My insurance keeps going up, car prices are ridiculous and then add high interest rates on that. Gee, I wonder why people are pulling back. Glad my civic is paid off and 40 mpg.
Well...hope they done ask the govt to bail them out.
And also hope they saved money from their markups when prices were high. Of course, dealers did their shenanigans as well
When a base model half ton is 60k cad, I'm going to keep driving my 2016 full load diesel 3500 that I paid 64k for brand new. It's not even so much that I can't afford it, it's just a fucking joke. Why does a new diesel truck start at 80k now? I can rebuild the engine and Transmission in my older truck quite a few times to even equal the value difference.
Dealers are still adding bullshit to the prices. It won't be "bad news" until well after they stop with that.
Not to mention that MSRPs are up 30% since right before the pandemic.
fuck new cars and all that touch screen BS.
give us a car thats got actual buttons/switches and is made with parts we can buy and replace ourselves.
that car would actually sell. like a lot.
The filthy poors won't buy enough of our subscription based bland Ipad on wheels, call the editor of business fluffers daily and start fomenting the markets... I'll be damned if we build what consumers want!
Nonsense feature bloat just aimed at padding margins is a big reason for that. My car is ten years old and to buy the same thing today it'd cost me over 50% more for feature parity.
I'd buy a new car if it didn't have a tablet instead of regular stuff, came with manual window controls, stick shift, basic options, and was affordable.
The problem is that with interest rates so high it makes leasing a car a lot more expensive. The auto industry now needs to accommodate buyers and offset the higher cost.
Maybe we all just genuinely have enough cars for now? It wouldn't be a crisis if we just used what we already had for a little while. Why does the line always have to go up (YoY)?
I doubt that cars are going to suddenly disappear. Society seems to have enough cars. Maybe we should just ease up on production for a while and let demand catch-up?
Isn't this what Capitalism is supposed to be all about? The efficient allocation of resources based on demand?
> Isn't this what Capitalism is supposed to be all about? The efficient allocation of resources based on demand?
In what world was capitalism ever about efficiency?
I don’t want to buy a car that is basically a computerized subscription model of a vehicle that should be fully within my control. When I need to buy a car again it’ll be a vintage car with no freaky computer surveillance tech in it, or a kit car.
Meh. I see people in various subreddits doing the typical silly American thing. Just when they’re about to be done paying off their car, they get distracted by the new shiny and reset their payments. It’s mind blowing. Like a $10,000 car debt left since 2019, and they reset it for a $40,000 2024 car. And of course they took a big hit on the trade in, almost $10,000. When asked why, they said the old model wasn’t the new model, so they had to get it.
Getting a new ride every 5-7 years is crazy, because the same people will claim how expensive everything is. It’s an illness.
Lots of reasons to not buy if you can manage with the car you have -
- new cars seem like shit with subscription services and other unwanted crap the makers are trying to push
- cars prices have been jacked up a lot
- the push is towards high end cars where the larger profit is, so smaller cars and cars without a lot of bells and whistles are getting phased out
- high interest rates
All of this together means waiting is good.
I love new cars but absolutely dread buying them. For many American, a car is the largest financed purchase they’ll ever make in their entire life, but somehow the government turns a blind eye to regulating financing and no care to oversight. I literally feel terrorized because you’re basically in the pawn shop. Everything is dialed against you, and unless you fight, you’ll leave paying more than sticker, a higher interest rate than you qualify for, and jammed to the gills with nonsense warranties and service fees. “We just fucked another one over! Ring the bell!!!”
That's capitalism! Car insurance, food prices, home/rent prices, etc have gone up with those industry bosses and shareholders making out well. But for Americans it's no choice to pay high food and insurance prices. If a few folks are avoiding paying high prices on a new car right now, good for them.
The purchase of a brand new vehicle isn't required in the economy like food and fuel and shelter. The new car manufacturers can just suck it up I suppose: That's Capitalism for ya GM, Ford and Stellantis et al.
>"We are no longer in 2023, when pent-up demand, excess pandemic savings and revenge spending kept the economy growing despite the Fed's aggressive tightening,"
"revenge spending" made me LOL. I suspect maybe only Americans can spend in a vengeful way hahaha
This industry can go and get fucked. When demand was high they had a "fuck you" attitude to their prices. They also sell you assets that go down in value and expect people to queue around they corner and kiss the ring?!?
I’m going to cruise around in my 2011 Infiniti m56x till i die. I got that car before Covid for 13000 and I never want to get rid of it. That 5.6 v8 is just an awesome engine in a sedan! It has around 129k miles and I plan on doing everything I can to save it as long as possible. It’s a very special car and I’m very grateful I was able to grab it. I get less excited for new cars daily but at least I continue to get more excited about older cars and cars from the near present and past.
The auto sales model is moving to subscription based which will generate monthly/lifetime revenue on top of the initially vehicle sales.
Just watch.
BMW started to charge a monthly subscription for its heated seats in a model the other year. They do the same thing for special features for lights or access to remote starting and unlocking from your phone.
GM is pulling out Apple Car Play so it can build its own proprietary infotainment system.
Tesla sells the same vehicle that already has the equipment installed but you can upgrade after the purchase to unlock new features like auto pilot.
Manufacturers have a captive audience with limited competition and high barriers to entry. You’ll see this play out over the next decade.
US added 100% tariffs on BYD EV, because their own car manufacturers can't compete with them on price. They want their own citizens to pay twice and support their shitty ICE trucks. US is a joke.
If they made cars like they did in the mid-late 60’s again people would flock back, cars made today are made to be temporary and it shows. Also would help the younger generation have an interest if they were easier to work on, can’t fit your hand anywhere, too many wires, too much safety garbage, too many rules (lobby it up to make sport vehicles exempt from emissions or something 🤷♂️)
You mean metal deathboxes? The 60s? You barely had the first airbags back in the 50’s! Are you fucking kidding me? Please tell me you’re trolling lmfao. Please.
I prefer the metal ones over plastic. Personally I don’t buy based on fear of crashing, I prefer not to worry about things and deal with things as they come. Also 50’s cars are also well constructed vehicles. Quick story, when my grandma was in her 30’s she got in an accident and flipped her early 60’s VW Bug on the freeway while going around 60MPH. When the car stopped rolling and sliding down the freeway she just got herself out the window, which amazingly she had to roll down because it didn’t break. She said some nice guys stopped, rolled her car back onto its wheeles, and were able to get it running. It looked scraped up and all but she drove it home. And no, I don’t troll, I just state my opinions or experience where relevant and receive hate for it occasionally 🤷♂️
Deflationary spiral is a great concept. Yes. EV cars are in this spiral. See: https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=EV%20less%20than%20$20k&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1c92b077,vid:06Q-BbvA48Q,st:0
Now please tell me if oil is in a deflationary spiral.
The idea that now for the auto industry to win, the customer has to lose, and for the customer to "win" (aka delay a purchase) the industry loses shows us that the way a lot of the economy is structured is broken. This is the opposite of a rising tide lifts all boats.
I study the depreciation curves on high end cars and buy the greatest used cars. Low mileage 2012 Ferrari FF what steal. And a 21000 mile 2014 Jaguar XK for 32k. Effn awesome. , No whining, Think and live abundantly.
What is bad for the seller is good for the buyer. Not too worried about the auto industry as GM just shit six billion to buy their own stock.
It's very much time for car sales to go direct to consumer.
Long past due. Dealership franchises are a huge money sponge with a stranglehold on the market.
True. Dealerships marked up when there was a shortage. Heck...on some models , the dealers probably made more money than the manufacturer. Of course...the financing is the more lucrative portion.
Dealers definitely made/make more on $5-10k+ ADM fees than they ever made on financing.
If they don’t finance they don’t make much at all, typically. They also have to pay interest on vehicles sitting on the lot - look up floor planning. I’d actually argue that the American financial system is equally or more to blame than OEMs or car dealers.
I went to a Toyota dealership when I was looking into getting a rav4 prime, but they don’t make many of those for some reason and the demand was insane, so the dealership decided to add 5k to the price “just because they could”. I will never, for the rest of my life, buy a Toyota for that reason. That should be illegal and dealerships absolutely need to be deleted.
Car dealerships in the USA are basically a legally-protected organized crime if there is such a term. LOL. They don't offer values that a manufacturer can't provide and is just a money extraction racket from car buyers.
I call them cartels
At least cartels compete with each other
Very true and wait too many laws on the books, protecting dealerships, and their margins
Lol never buy a Toyota because of that? Guess you’ll never buy another car ever because every dealership was doing it
F those “markups,” nothing but bullshit. When I bought my Charger, new Scat packs were going for 60 grand. They probably still are. I found a 2 year old one with 12,000 miles on it for 42K. No way I’ll buy new for the foreseeable future.
They won’t anytime soon. I sell e-commerce software into the industry and I can tell you the OEMs have zero desire to deal with sales and service (beyond the lucrative practice of OEM captive lending, that is). Various brands are working towards building more programs to allow consumers to work deals on their own time and in a more transparent manner. The issue is, so long as it’s legal, some old school dealer will always be willing to post a cheaper price to lure people in. This is why dealers are hesitant to adopt pricing transparency. The sad thing is, it works - by the time most consumers have driven to yet another dealer to buy a car, 9/10 times they’ll just willingly get dicked around and pay the same or more as they might elsewhere just to get it over with.
6B. WTF. Funny...when they are low on cash, they ask the govt to bail them out and cut benefits. I wish the govt would tax the money spent on stock buy backs a little more. (Think there is a 1% charge?) Maybe bump up to 10% and put it in the fund used to bail out pension plans. It is almost as though profits are private but losses are socialised
Buyback should be illegal again, it was Reagan who made legal in 1987.
Just make it so that 90% is taken and spread evenly between all employees before shareholders get their cut. If you're truly doing so well and aren't looking to expand then reward your workers.
Yes, once upon a time it was illegal stock manipulation.
This entire financial system is a Ponzi scheme. Why don’t all of you see that? I’m honestly shocked people haven’t done a nationwide boycott yet just because. You want prices to come down fast permanently, do that.
Such a good point. Companies complain about labor regulation when burning cash on propping up their stock prices
Exactly!!! this shit is happening everywhere... Executives making record profits and pay, prices of everything skyrocketing and record stock buybacks. Capitalism has become a disease at this point.
become? It always was.
In the short term. Automakers and their suppliers don't make their number for a few quarters, that triggers a layoff which dominos into shiat economy and deflationary/layoff spiral.
Then why are they buying back stock with cash?…
Private profits. Socialised losses.
A few reasons why I'm still driving my 2009 Honda Accord: - It has physical buttons - It does not require a subscription or app of any kind and I am not treated like a cow whose milk is to be extracted perpetually - It does not collect and sell my data (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/) - It is easy to do basic maintenance on. I've done a few rounds myself. - At most, the cost of maintenance is ~$1000/yr. It is not always consistently $1000 every year but more sporadic and depends more on mileage of items being worn out at different intervals. - It is paid off. There is no perpetual car payment. New cars are ever increasingly more expensive. Overall, the net cost is significantly less than that of a new car that will be used to nickle and dime me with subscriptions / apps and tries to collect my information to sell to advertisers and insurance companies. So yeah, fuck them. Get their shits right and the consumers will come.
Stealing my property, my data, is a deal breaker for me. I bought the car, it’s not like Reddit or Google where I trade my data to use the service. The car harvesting your data does nothing for me.
You forgot insurance is far cheaper for older cars. Same for states that tax car ownership yearly.
I was going to chime in that insurance would also be cheaper. I don’t get why people want to have a new car so often, I would rather have lower insurance cost and no car payment for 5 or more years and run my car into the ground. A coworker of mine has a Nissan extera with 240,000 miles on it and it runs great.
And registration ! My 2015 CRV is cheap
Yes. And old cars are easier to work on.
If you're getting taxed on it perpetually then you don't really own it, you're just renting it from the government for that price
Well you hit just about every nail on the head on why im still driving my 2012 Honda civic
Ditto for my 2006 Civic Hybrid. The IMA System (electric-assist hybrid thing) is all but shot, but it still averages 35mpg.
2019 was the last year you could buy car then it went to hell.
Honestly it's been downhill ever since the 2 parties bailed out Chrysler in the 70s
I'll bet that Accord is nice to drive, with good visibility, excellent handling, a quiet cabin and a high level of trim. Probably fits in a parking place, too.
It's not bad. All the other aspects you mentioned are pretty decent, with the exception for the cabin, which isn't exactly quiet but hey it's a 15 years old car. It gets me from point A to point B safely and I don't lose money or sleep over it. It should last me at least another 100-200k miles if I keep maintaining it at regular interval.
[удалено]
That's my hope, that my current car will last long enough until I can move somewhere with better public transportation infrastructure and can bike or ebike everywhere. Unfortunately most of America's cities are still very much designed for and required cars to get around at the moment.
I would still be driving my Mazda from 2010 but it decided to throw a rod last summer and my mechanic advised against throwing a new engine in since there could be other things that would pop up later and I figured I didn’t wanna throw good money after bad.
Yeah that sucks, I've heard older generation Mazda tend to have reliability issues, not sure about the more recent generations. Generally though, most older Toyota's and Honda's tend to still be fairly reliable if you're in the market for older cars. Where I live, if I see an older car on the road, it is often a Honda, a Toyota, or an old Subaru.
Yeah I bought a Toyota
Amen. I want simple cars that are easy to maintain.
I love my 2013 Wrangler. And even that has too much touchscreen for my taste. That subscription thing is too real - and disgusting. Toyota wants $8+ a month to use the phone as a spare key? And to activate the remote start? Fuck no.
Same with me. In January I put a new clutch, and tires on my 09 Accord. It was cheaper than 3 months of car payments.
Same reasons I keep my 2006 Lexus. Paid off and no issues except every few years to replace things that have worn out. Simple maintenance and rides like a charm. No computers needed really lol
A 2009 Honda is barely broken in. I shit you not.
9% interest might have a little to do with that on top of 100k price tags.
I mean certified pre owned were always the way to go unless you’re getting a Tesla.
Used cars typically have higher interest rates than new
A lot of certified pre owned vehicles are practically the same price as new these days, depending on the model. Corolla hybrid, ford maverick, crv/rav4, late model civics. If they are off lease the dealers basically bring the price down 1-2k from new. So you lose most of the warranty period, and save barely anything. And then the finance costs are higher on a used car, even certified pre-owned, vs a new car. It’s brutal out there.
I just can't understand financing a car, and I think it's insane to pay 9% on top of it
Well the alternative is to pay cash, and most people don't have that kind of cash lying around.
Fuck the auto industry and their price gouging.
I wonder if it’s because people aren’t interested in arguing with some obnoxious guy with a buzz cut and goatee over $1200 worth of “dealer installed options” like nitrogen in the tires and “security etching” on the windshield, with the presumption that you also have to go in knowing they are giving you a shitty price off the bat that you have to spend 3 hours haggling down… No, that definitely couldn’t be it
I had some kid who didn't look old enough to drink try and convince me this 10+ year-old used vehicle was absolutely worth an extra $500, because the dealership replaced the standard back-up light with one that blinks. Me: Please remove it. That sounds annoying as shit.
05 camry still running strong, imma keep driving it till the wheels fall off!
When I bought my used car. I was really close to paying it off, the dealership called me. "Hey we saw you were about to pay your car off, when are you planning to bring it in to get a new one?" Uh...Never?? That's why I bought it. So I wouldn't have a car payment forever...the fk??!???? The audacity of dealerships
Funny you mentioned that, around 2020-2021 or so when prices of cars both old and new were rising, the local Honda dealership emailed AND called me saying they wanted to buy my back then 12 years old Honda. I said hell nah, I'm gonna drive this shit into the ground.
My camry is a 09 and still running strong, no issues at all. Long live the Camry
Aww. Poor car industry, that very recently had $10,000 mark ups on $40,000 cars.
Yeah. Think was a lot of dealership BS. But agree. The manufacturers hiked a lot and made some bucks. Of course they used the profits to buy back their stock. If only the companies knew things go in cycles. Oh yeah..they do. When things are going well, execs make $$$. When not so much, the govt has to bail them out and employee pensions get raided. Nice scam.
Try walking in today asking for them to price a car and subtracting a $10k consumer, high interest, low demand mark down to their final offer.
That was the dealerships not the manufacturers
The manufacturers supply the cars and can set and enforce the rules.
I remember Ford's CEO talking holding dealerships accountable and cutting them off if they price gouge. Haven't heard any real follow up from that.
That’s what I remember!
No, they really can't they don't belong to the manufacturer after it's turned over to the shipping company at the factory gate. The only real option they have is refusing to sell the dealership cars, which is a nuclear option
Yeah. At best it is MSRp. The S is for Suggested. I am glad the manufacturers raised prices..than let the dealers take all the extra cash. And when things are going not so well .they should use the savings to reduce the prices. (Of course the car manufacturers blew the extra profits on stock but back)
Its almost like years of price gouging took its toll on the consumer.
Dude, we must (the buyers) unite and refuse to entertain any subscription ideas the auto industry has to offer. I never want to pay a a monthly subscription in order to use certain features on my vehicle. Also, we should fight for vehicles that have nice features but aren’t dependent on electronics.
Long story short buyers are the key to cooling prices. Not corporate gouging, not federal handouts. People can choose to stop buying and prices will be forced to decrease. Looks like the consumer is finally figuring that out.
I agree with the sentiment but federal policy does impact buyer behavior. People are buying based on monthly payments and low interest rates encourages purchasing at higher prices.
My mother was addicted to credit cards. The "it's not the price it's the payments" thing makes my skin crawl. If "cash is king," then why don't you wash it? Why do you want me on the hook for five years? When we're haggling the car and the finance guy shows up, I just want to leave.
Cars are "durable goods," or products that do not quickly wear out and are useful over a long period of time. Other durable goods include home appliances, furniture, sports equipment, and even toys. According to Smoke, durable goods are already in a recession due to deflation.
“Products that do not quickly wear out” So we’re not including American-made cars as “durable goods” then lol.
Lmao, yes. I know it's not American-made but a Range Rover pretty much falls apart after 50k miles. Even before reaching that, I know an owner who probably drove a loaner more since her RR kept spending time in the shop.
high end luxury cars sell maintenance, not durability.
Pretty fair point, unless your lucky like me and land that 1 car that was made right and still on the road 22 years later (02 Ford Ranger Supercab) with shockingly little maint other than basics.
Fuck I miss my little Ranger 😭
I gave mine to my niece recently to use and got a small used beater for work driving. Ranger is a bit gas heavy but it still runs well. Rare to have a car that I got when she was around 3 yrs old. She loved my truck since she was a toddler. I really miss the light truck version of rangers.
Not anything by Stellantis, for sure!
Glad to see everyone knowing that brand new cars are a waste of money.
Let me rephrase this. People are fed up with the grossly overpriced and poor quality new cars and are sticking to their order cars.
Not to mention the overly bulky cars they have nowadays.
My 03 Honda Civic with 135k miles I bought off a snowbird is going to outlive us all.
Delaying ….or just can’t afford it ?
I personally would buy a new car if it was cost effective. I wish I could get a low $ Chinese electric or a hilux, or buy directly from the manufacturer. Stupid dealership lobbyists and government force us to use a middle man who adds no value.
What good cars are even left to buy? If I won $10 million (any less, and I'm getting a good used car) I'd be hard pressed to find an American car that ticked all my boxes. And - yes - there's some cope in that headline. "People are \_not\_ buying new cars". Also - from the article - wtf is 'revenge spending'?
Good. Fuck 'em. Cars cost way too much for young people now. I realize there was and is a great deal of inflation. That is not the auto makers fault. My issue is how they advertise models with a base price and some other lower trim levels, but don't make any/hardly of those versions. They only offer the fully loaded trim models that cost significantly more. If they do not make the base and lower trim models, they shouldn't be allowed to advertise them. There are hardly any sub $25k new cars now, whereas there were at least a dozen prior to covid.
There's a $91k jeep for base model. https://www.jeep.com/wagoneer/grand-wagoneer.html
Fucking hell. I bought a house for that much in 2007. For a Jeep. No way.
In 2022 we were shopping for a taller car that our mother could get into and out of easier then my civic. We looked at a CRV, a forrester, and a RAV4. We were paying cash but the Subaru dealer wouldn’t discuss the price until after we filled out a credit application (we both have 850 scores) because he said the price was dependent on our credit. The Toyota dealer showed us the rav4 then said “we have an offer on this one for $10,000 over MSRP but if you can beat that it’s yours.” The Honda dealer sold us the car for MSRP so we bought it. Fuck car dealers. Fuck regulations that prohibit buying directly from manufacturers, fuck the auto industry in whole. This couldn’t happen to a worse pack of scumbags.
The auto industry has suppressed clean technology for decades. I feel no pity for them.
They've also suppressed public transportation. Fuck 'em.
*This* *~~song~~* ***continent*** *needs more* *~~cowbell~~* ***roads.***
Dealerships HATE EVs Dealerships make most of their money not from selling cars but from servicing the cars they sell EVs have a fraction of the moving parts of a gas powered car, and that means a fraction of the service is required, and there goes biggest part of the dealership's business
They also make money on the financing, I think Try paying cash for a car. You will have dealerships really mad
Why is it the customer's job to ensure they make profit? 🤦♂️ Stop the insanity, Susan!
dealerships, like realtors, are worthless middlemen.
Yup. Bribe states to make sure you cannot buy cars from the manufacturer directly... apparently
I am ok with them making some money on servicing etc. But it is absurd when they make so much and made things worse by marking yup so much Problem is state laws in US. That's is why you cannot order online from , say, Ford
Because they are working with big oil… Nothing happens by chance in business… Now you have cheap Chinese electric cars, and guess what, they found an excuse to stop them.
That is not because of the oil companies as much as servicing EVs needs lot less servicing.
smart money
And now our own government is complicit in suppressing the transition to a green future.
What are you talking about? Tesla’s entire existence is due to government subsidies of electric vehicles to the tune of $7,000 each.
Of course. Even people who flip burgers for a living can afford a Tesla. Average folk should just pick themselves up from their bootstraps and buy a Tesla. You dont need a choice, just give up your money for an overpriced product.
There are some Chinese EVs for 10K. Except Uncle Sam has added thigh tariffs (100%?) . Not all Chinese EVs are good. But from what I understand, some are very good.
cool. it shouldve happened in the 90s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
You mean 1890s
Nah. The government has added high tariffs on Chinese EV imports - So we won't be getting those 10K EVs. No reason EVs have to be that expensive . The Chinese stuff is pretty good (not all) But then china makes lot more vehicles than the US now So this was bound to happen.
the communists beat the capitalists at capitalism. amazing.
Tariffs on EVs.
Yet Biden just set 50 mpg as the industry standard for 2031
Most people can't afford a $1000 a month for a new car and inflated insurance rates.
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. Fire up the smoker!!!
I bought a 2016 Honda Civic in 2021 and paid more than they were charging in 2016 for a new one. Still mad about it. When the price of your product skyrockets and interest rates are high then guess what, fewer people will buy.
GOOD! Manufacturers and dealers spent years screwing buyers every way possible. It is FAR beyond ‘about goddamned time’ some of these manufacturers, their shareholders, CEOs, dealers, and salespeople got the royal shafting that they have so much more than earned.
It’s time to cut out the middleman (dealerships)
Yes! Someone else who gets it. Gotta elect people who will repeal the forced dealship laws.
> It’s time to cut out the middleman Well it's definitely time to be cutting...
I wish that they would make "analog" cars as an option. I really don't need mine to be a roaming satellite dish.
My insurance keeps going up, car prices are ridiculous and then add high interest rates on that. Gee, I wonder why people are pulling back. Glad my civic is paid off and 40 mpg.
Don’t bail out bad businesses. That’s how better ones and innovations come
Well...hope they done ask the govt to bail them out. And also hope they saved money from their markups when prices were high. Of course, dealers did their shenanigans as well
Oh no, won’t someone please think of the auto execs and the shareholders!
When a base model half ton is 60k cad, I'm going to keep driving my 2016 full load diesel 3500 that I paid 64k for brand new. It's not even so much that I can't afford it, it's just a fucking joke. Why does a new diesel truck start at 80k now? I can rebuild the engine and Transmission in my older truck quite a few times to even equal the value difference.
Dealers are still adding bullshit to the prices. It won't be "bad news" until well after they stop with that. Not to mention that MSRPs are up 30% since right before the pandemic.
fuck new cars and all that touch screen BS. give us a car thats got actual buttons/switches and is made with parts we can buy and replace ourselves. that car would actually sell. like a lot.
Oh no. That’s horrible. What ever will we do.
The filthy poors won't buy enough of our subscription based bland Ipad on wheels, call the editor of business fluffers daily and start fomenting the markets... I'll be damned if we build what consumers want!
This is what over the top greed gets them.
Good. Prices are too damn high and the market is oversaturated with used and new vehicles, there's too much supply at this price level.
Nonsense feature bloat just aimed at padding margins is a big reason for that. My car is ten years old and to buy the same thing today it'd cost me over 50% more for feature parity.
Haha fuck those companies.
You mean people don’t like being billed monthly for their heated seats in BMWs?!?
I'd buy a new car if it didn't have a tablet instead of regular stuff, came with manual window controls, stick shift, basic options, and was affordable.
The problem is that with interest rates so high it makes leasing a car a lot more expensive. The auto industry now needs to accommodate buyers and offset the higher cost.
F the auto industry!
Hah fucking hah you price gouging pricks.
Maybe we all just genuinely have enough cars for now? It wouldn't be a crisis if we just used what we already had for a little while. Why does the line always have to go up (YoY)? I doubt that cars are going to suddenly disappear. Society seems to have enough cars. Maybe we should just ease up on production for a while and let demand catch-up? Isn't this what Capitalism is supposed to be all about? The efficient allocation of resources based on demand?
But ... but ... the capitalist system requires infinite growth and infinite spending! What will happen to the next Quarterly Earning report?!
> Isn't this what Capitalism is supposed to be all about? The efficient allocation of resources based on demand? In what world was capitalism ever about efficiency?
Cry me a fucking river.
Sale sale sale
They deserve it. Ill never forget the above MSRP bs we had to deal with at stealerships.
Great. Fuck’em
GM can take their profits and choke on em. Used cars shouldn't be the price of a new one.
I don’t want to buy a car that is basically a computerized subscription model of a vehicle that should be fully within my control. When I need to buy a car again it’ll be a vintage car with no freaky computer surveillance tech in it, or a kit car.
Meh. I see people in various subreddits doing the typical silly American thing. Just when they’re about to be done paying off their car, they get distracted by the new shiny and reset their payments. It’s mind blowing. Like a $10,000 car debt left since 2019, and they reset it for a $40,000 2024 car. And of course they took a big hit on the trade in, almost $10,000. When asked why, they said the old model wasn’t the new model, so they had to get it. Getting a new ride every 5-7 years is crazy, because the same people will claim how expensive everything is. It’s an illness.
Lots of reasons to not buy if you can manage with the car you have - - new cars seem like shit with subscription services and other unwanted crap the makers are trying to push - cars prices have been jacked up a lot - the push is towards high end cars where the larger profit is, so smaller cars and cars without a lot of bells and whistles are getting phased out - high interest rates All of this together means waiting is good.
What a weird way to say "people can't afford new cars."
Oh no! Anyway …
I love new cars but absolutely dread buying them. For many American, a car is the largest financed purchase they’ll ever make in their entire life, but somehow the government turns a blind eye to regulating financing and no care to oversight. I literally feel terrorized because you’re basically in the pawn shop. Everything is dialed against you, and unless you fight, you’ll leave paying more than sticker, a higher interest rate than you qualify for, and jammed to the gills with nonsense warranties and service fees. “We just fucked another one over! Ring the bell!!!”
Good
The fleet has continued to age for 15 years. This isn’t new news.
Fuck yeah, greedy jerks. Hopefully we can kill the dealership model in the process.
GM needed to be saved by the US tax payer not too long ago
That's capitalism! Car insurance, food prices, home/rent prices, etc have gone up with those industry bosses and shareholders making out well. But for Americans it's no choice to pay high food and insurance prices. If a few folks are avoiding paying high prices on a new car right now, good for them. The purchase of a brand new vehicle isn't required in the economy like food and fuel and shelter. The new car manufacturers can just suck it up I suppose: That's Capitalism for ya GM, Ford and Stellantis et al.
>"We are no longer in 2023, when pent-up demand, excess pandemic savings and revenge spending kept the economy growing despite the Fed's aggressive tightening," "revenge spending" made me LOL. I suspect maybe only Americans can spend in a vengeful way hahaha
Been like that for a while now
Generation Z finally got smart and realized buying brand new cars is a total waste of money.
You say delay. I say at these prices I'll fix my 10 year old car before I pay that.
Ohh no. Anyway…
...and good news for everyone else.
And people wonder why I refuse to buy new cars... Nothing about such a transaction makes financial sense.
This industry can go and get fucked. When demand was high they had a "fuck you" attitude to their prices. They also sell you assets that go down in value and expect people to queue around they corner and kiss the ring?!?
I’m going to cruise around in my 2011 Infiniti m56x till i die. I got that car before Covid for 13000 and I never want to get rid of it. That 5.6 v8 is just an awesome engine in a sedan! It has around 129k miles and I plan on doing everything I can to save it as long as possible. It’s a very special car and I’m very grateful I was able to grab it. I get less excited for new cars daily but at least I continue to get more excited about older cars and cars from the near present and past.
The auto industry is being propped up by big oil and big government. We are not being helped by either.
Because I just need a car, not a computer on wheels. Preferably with AC, stereo and good gas mileage.
The auto sales model is moving to subscription based which will generate monthly/lifetime revenue on top of the initially vehicle sales. Just watch. BMW started to charge a monthly subscription for its heated seats in a model the other year. They do the same thing for special features for lights or access to remote starting and unlocking from your phone. GM is pulling out Apple Car Play so it can build its own proprietary infotainment system. Tesla sells the same vehicle that already has the equipment installed but you can upgrade after the purchase to unlock new features like auto pilot. Manufacturers have a captive audience with limited competition and high barriers to entry. You’ll see this play out over the next decade.
Those $10,000 Chinese EVs are looking better and better.
If you want to put Americans out of work.
Mexico enters the conversation.
Delaying? That is a funny way of saying new cars are ridiculously over priced.
I'll believe it when prices start falling. Just a few years ago there were lots full of new cars yet prices were sky high.
Who wants to buy a 50k car or 80k truck. Not shocking
Good
who cares? especially after the BS they been pulling with mark ups
Ummm bc there isn't any extra money anymore... All goes to bills
It's funny when price changes favor the common man - it's always scare mongered in the news.
Almost like the news isn't written for you - but for the power elite.
Tough. Lower the damn prices.
US added 100% tariffs on BYD EV, because their own car manufacturers can't compete with them on price. They want their own citizens to pay twice and support their shitty ICE trucks. US is a joke.
If they made cars like they did in the mid-late 60’s again people would flock back, cars made today are made to be temporary and it shows. Also would help the younger generation have an interest if they were easier to work on, can’t fit your hand anywhere, too many wires, too much safety garbage, too many rules (lobby it up to make sport vehicles exempt from emissions or something 🤷♂️)
You mean metal deathboxes? The 60s? You barely had the first airbags back in the 50’s! Are you fucking kidding me? Please tell me you’re trolling lmfao. Please.
I prefer the metal ones over plastic. Personally I don’t buy based on fear of crashing, I prefer not to worry about things and deal with things as they come. Also 50’s cars are also well constructed vehicles. Quick story, when my grandma was in her 30’s she got in an accident and flipped her early 60’s VW Bug on the freeway while going around 60MPH. When the car stopped rolling and sliding down the freeway she just got herself out the window, which amazingly she had to roll down because it didn’t break. She said some nice guys stopped, rolled her car back onto its wheeles, and were able to get it running. It looked scraped up and all but she drove it home. And no, I don’t troll, I just state my opinions or experience where relevant and receive hate for it occasionally 🤷♂️
Deflationary spiral is a great concept. Yes. EV cars are in this spiral. See: https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=EV%20less%20than%20$20k&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1c92b077,vid:06Q-BbvA48Q,st:0 Now please tell me if oil is in a deflationary spiral.
Birdmanrubbinghands.gif I will be there ready. I can't wait for the Rivian r2 and r3x.
isn't this just the Japan experience? so how long before deflation?
The idea that now for the auto industry to win, the customer has to lose, and for the customer to "win" (aka delay a purchase) the industry loses shows us that the way a lot of the economy is structured is broken. This is the opposite of a rising tide lifts all boats.
I study the depreciation curves on high end cars and buy the greatest used cars. Low mileage 2012 Ferrari FF what steal. And a 21000 mile 2014 Jaguar XK for 32k. Effn awesome. , No whining, Think and live abundantly.
Welp they’ve reached the top end of the bell curve, time to bring prices back down
Good
Bad news for the auto industry, but good for the consumer. Short period at least.