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Competent must mean you can have it for a month without breaking it... Therefore I am not competent the break in my tool belt. Milwaukee one with a flashlight last about 6 weeks and fluke about 3 months.
Phoenix Contact instructions used to say ‘installation notes for electricians’ but they recently changed to to ‘installation notes for electrically skilled persons’
Define “competent.” I am of the mind that no matter how much schooling you have, how safe you are, how much of the code you know, and how effective you are, you still have no clue what you’re doing and pray no one asks you a question.
Yes! It's incredibly important to maintain background levels of anxiety to assure your survival & the safety of the people around you. I always assume I'm the idiot with more to learn.
My strategy to combat questions is, unfortunately, to info-dump. Most people are receptive, or otherwise tune out, but eventually, I'll find someone who knows more than me. The day that I do, I'm sure I'll be thankful.
***AMEN BROTHER***
I shall point to OSHAs definitions of competent
*Competent person: means one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them.*
I used to do commercial HVAC/R and we had to call electricians for everything that came from the city to the unit, even on a swap out, I guess that’s why my shoes don’t have laces 😞
"has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them" eliminates 99.9% of us.
"Hey boss, this is fucked" *yelling in the trailer* "Send it'
To add to this, I trust my Fluke beepies about 90% of the time. Fluke products have been excellent for many years. But they read from ~90 volts up. I've pulled wire or cable and accidentally made contact with a phone distribution and my sweaty ass got a startling jolt when I hit the 66 block when pulling a new ground. Or a circuit that had an open/floating neutral that didn't read above the 90 volt threshold of a beepies while making up an outlet to the circuit that you locked out. These beepies sticks are trustworthy for most of the time, but never foolproof. Gotta keep those in mind, a homeowner likely won't know how their surroundings may affect them. An electrician has the edge there, but nothing is a guaranteed "safe".
I used one for a couple months - a fluke - before the thing starting giving a shit load of false positives AND negatives. And I know how you're supposed to use it.
Snapped it in half and tossed it.
Pffft. I can remember where, I think it's in New Jersey, there's a sign on a subway station that says do not touch the third rail and just lists a fine 🤣
I made a pair of gloves with a bunch of inductors in the fingertips to sense a/c current after getting hit by a control box that was locked out. Turns out they used high voltage for the cut-out switches in the box (the schematics showed 12vdc for those).
I tried to develop the gloves as a product but they failed UL and ETL because they didn’t protect against current.
That was never what they were intended to do but if I can’t make investors and insurance agencies understand that then I guess the average consumer probably wouldn’t either. Anyway, I still use them in iffy situations 10 years later. Love them.
You ever see the guy that implanted neodymium magnets in his finger tips? After the nerves healed he could feel the vibration of current. Downside is he couldn’t put down a paper clip
Captain this is why they are covering their base and labeling it for competent person only. People have died and seriously injured themselves relaying on this device.
Because they were incompetent lol. Plenty of peope have died improperly using a meter as well, probably way more then NCV testers. They are safer then a meter without a doubt... if you are competent
Oh god. One time it didn’t go down when I swallowed and it started melting in the back of my throat. That’s the nastiest taste in the world and it doesn’t go away until you rinse your mouth out.
A no-contact voltage tester is intended to indicate whether or not a conductor or device is live. If it's misused and gives a false reading that the circuit is off when in fact the circuit is still live, the electrician sticking his or her fingers in the box is going to get a life-threatening surprise.
Misuse could include not having good batteries in it, or trying to read the wrong conductor or terminal, or not getting it close enough to the conductor, or not turning it on, or having it in the wrong setting (if it has adjustable range), etc
Yeah I get it, but I mean something with leads on it my guy. That non contact stuff is too hard to trust. Especially when you are around 277/480 in the states.
Probes live in my toolbag, but the pen lives in my pocket. 16 years of using the fluke ones and never had a false negative. Get the odd false positive but I can live with that. Think I’m on my third one as the speaker doesn’t like being dropped onto concrete
Well. These things are just like the Lügenstift (one pole phase tester screwdrivers) made for people woh either have no cloue or for the good ones to find live cables where they cannot see them or to find the broken wire. They are no guarantee that the line is not live anymore.
My helper threw out about 5 yes,nopes before I even got to the panel to flip breakers. Dude I’m not usin your beep stick with 2 year old batteries. Now touch it and tell me if it’s tingly or go get the real testers.
Hah! I can count to 3, and my boss likes it, any time I make my work order & have to put how many meters of cable I used, my boss earns a tremendous amount of money
1...2...3... Uh, 3 & 1...32...33... Uh, 331...332...333
However, most people don't believe if I tell them I can pull 33333m cable in less than an hour
Clients don't like me as well... I have no idea how many meters more I need to pull to get them satisfied...
Also don't look at me too much otherwise I'll break. Seriously, they are \*always\* broken when you need them. To date the best I found is the HT that doubles as a phase sequence checker
I have replaced my fluke liar stick twice in my 8 years in the trade. Personally, I have never seen any weirdness with these.
I’ve had a Klein stick with a flashlight that I never understood; when am I going to be using a proximity tester in the dark? I have flashlights and headlamps for that. The worst thing about that Klein I had was that when it finally shit the bed it did it by giving an alert whenever the light was on OR I just moved it. It would get left on and beep in my bag or the back of my truck.
> when am I going to be using a proximity tester in the dark?
I don't think it's so you can use your proximity tester in the dark... I like it because it's nice to always have a proximity tester and always have a flashlight, so having them combined in a way that can fit in most places you could put a pen is pretty handy.
I never completely trust my hot stick, but out of all brands I certainly trust my fluke the most. Verify with a fluke meter before touching anything that could shock.
I've noticed a lot of the klein ones just act strange while the fluke is a pretty positive response, either hot or not.
A wire that’s not accessible in a box or panel? I never seen a wire that I couldn’t get to the end of, especially one that for some off reason I needed to know was hot. Could you provide me an example?
Easy. You need to identify a wire in an attic. There are always lots of wires in attics. What tool would you use to determine a wire is the one needed worked on? The wire is not labeled along the length of it what it is or what it is associated with. You cannot amp it without opening up the sheathing. If not a proximity tester, what tool would you use to figure the wire you are about to cut?
So all these wires are just up there and don’t terminate into lighting or receptacles?
I’m go with they do and your saying you are the helper in the attic. Because the electrician usually doesn’t go in the attic. So the helper is generally not the competent person on the job. Point one.
But let’s say you’re working alone. I’m gonna assume your to lazy to walk out of the attic to the receptacle or light to identify which one it is. So you use a tool that commonly fails to read live voltage. Which is precisely why it’s called a widow maker.
Back to my original point. A competent person isn’t lazy and doesn’t use a tool that commonly fails. He leaves the attic to said receptacle or light. See if it has voltage. Locates it the attic. Make sense yet?
You figure out which wire it is before you cut it. Tone it if you have to.
That said, your way might work. But I lost my favorite pair of dikes because my tester lied and I get false positives all the time.
Thats why you have the second turn it off and on while you have your stick on it; to be sure. Also, you cannot tone out a hot wire with any tool I know of and there could be something on the circuit that prevents a toner from signaling.
Any circuit breaker finder will do it. The klein one is pretty decent. I have one that does both live and dead wires, it has a 60 hz filter you turn on when it is live to tune out the interference.
So you’re trying to find a Romex cable that’s being used in another receptacle (I’m assuming. Or we could say a light) and splice another cable to it for what purpose? Why not competently run a new circuit like you should?
You sound like the type of guy that does it cheaper, and then the home owner has to hire me for twice as much to fix everything you fucked up.
Dude, you're missing the point. Shit happens, things change, and sometimes it is impractical to run a new wire from an existing endpoint. Attic splices happen and you're just a stubborn old man with a holier-than-thou attitude if you pretend they don't.
But to be completely honest with you, you are arguing against a very handy and affordable tool that comes in handy very often because I guess you just think you're better than it is, and I just don't have time to keep interacting with you.
I’m 40 bro. lol. I’m just competent and don’t trust my life to a tool that’s called widow maker because I’m too lazy to do a job the right way lol. It’s not “holier than thou”. It’s called doing a job competently. But do you. I’m sure you’re making a local competent electrician a lot of money. Cheers brother.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That eliminates 90% of the workforce
Exactly why I use my meter
Competent must mean you can have it for a month without breaking it... Therefore I am not competent the break in my tool belt. Milwaukee one with a flashlight last about 6 weeks and fluke about 3 months.
lol, the Milwaukee one is rad….but the button always pushes in or falls off.
Including yourself
Negative kimosabi
Ke-mo sah-bee is, I think, what you were going for. Edit- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ke-mo_sah-bee
Na, just kimosabi
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Not in this context bub
That is the perfect legal “out”, though. “If you die using this, you obviously weren’t a competent electrician. Sorry.”
At minimum, rules/laws and other safety things weren't put in place UNTIL some shit met fans.
100%. There’s an old saying that “Behind every law, there’s a tragedy.”
Books of Blood
Written in blood, no less.
Phoenix Contact instructions used to say ‘installation notes for electricians’ but they recently changed to to ‘installation notes for electrically skilled persons’
This right here gave me a belly laugh.
Definitely not interchangeable terms
Define “competent.” I am of the mind that no matter how much schooling you have, how safe you are, how much of the code you know, and how effective you are, you still have no clue what you’re doing and pray no one asks you a question.
this user is smart
Just don’t ask me a question.
Can you see me?
Fuck.
Yes! It's incredibly important to maintain background levels of anxiety to assure your survival & the safety of the people around you. I always assume I'm the idiot with more to learn.
Growing up I heard “don’t try this at home, kids” and now as an adult I know the only difference between me and that guy was he was getting paid.
22 years in, and I’m still of this same mindset
My strategy to combat questions is, unfortunately, to info-dump. Most people are receptive, or otherwise tune out, but eventually, I'll find someone who knows more than me. The day that I do, I'm sure I'll be thankful.
***AMEN BROTHER*** I shall point to OSHAs definitions of competent *Competent person: means one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them.*
Bet you anything that if this ever came up in court, that’s exactly what their lawyers would point to
LAWYER: Is *name redacted* competent under OSHA? Witness: he went to college, but can't tie his shoes without singing the song.
I used to do commercial HVAC/R and we had to call electricians for everything that came from the city to the unit, even on a swap out, I guess that’s why my shoes don’t have laces 😞
"has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them" eliminates 99.9% of us. "Hey boss, this is fucked" *yelling in the trailer* "Send it'
To add to this, I trust my Fluke beepies about 90% of the time. Fluke products have been excellent for many years. But they read from ~90 volts up. I've pulled wire or cable and accidentally made contact with a phone distribution and my sweaty ass got a startling jolt when I hit the 66 block when pulling a new ground. Or a circuit that had an open/floating neutral that didn't read above the 90 volt threshold of a beepies while making up an outlet to the circuit that you locked out. These beepies sticks are trustworthy for most of the time, but never foolproof. Gotta keep those in mind, a homeowner likely won't know how their surroundings may affect them. An electrician has the edge there, but nothing is a guaranteed "safe".
Always trust when it goes off, never trust when it doesn’t.
I believe it says 90VAC but I have had mine light up on much less (real AC voltage and not just induced)
So many people don’t know the proper way to use one and it’s ridiculous because it’s an incredibly simple tool to use
And incredibly useful. So many guys in here will shit on them but they are better at quickly detecting dangerous voltage then a meter.
I used one for a couple months - a fluke - before the thing starting giving a shit load of false positives AND negatives. And I know how you're supposed to use it. Snapped it in half and tossed it.
Never, in 15 years of using one have I ever got a false negative, ever. Have gotten false negatives with a meyer though, twice.
If the label doesn’t stop you, the electrocution will.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/AD-COMPOSITE-Warning.jpg?w=620
That €50 fine is the part that tips the scales towards safe behavior.
Pffft. I can remember where, I think it's in New Jersey, there's a sign on a subway station that says do not touch the third rail and just lists a fine 🤣
You’ll have to pry it out of my frozen seized fingers….with a piece of wood or something non-conductive
Hot take, he’s holding the best induction tester out there?
Only one I've used for my entire apprenticeship, showed up 1st day with a klien tick and the foreman told me to throw it out.
If these electricians could read they'd be very upset...
I made a pair of gloves with a bunch of inductors in the fingertips to sense a/c current after getting hit by a control box that was locked out. Turns out they used high voltage for the cut-out switches in the box (the schematics showed 12vdc for those). I tried to develop the gloves as a product but they failed UL and ETL because they didn’t protect against current. That was never what they were intended to do but if I can’t make investors and insurance agencies understand that then I guess the average consumer probably wouldn’t either. Anyway, I still use them in iffy situations 10 years later. Love them.
If at first you don’t succeed…. That sounds like an awesome product.
You ever see the guy that implanted neodymium magnets in his finger tips? After the nerves healed he could feel the vibration of current. Downside is he couldn’t put down a paper clip
Just use a sharpie and cover that sh*t right up
They don’t call it a widow wand for no reason 😂
If you die from using this then you fall in the category of "incompetent person"
Captain this is why they are covering their base and labeling it for competent person only. People have died and seriously injured themselves relaying on this device.
Because they were incompetent lol. Plenty of peope have died improperly using a meter as well, probably way more then NCV testers. They are safer then a meter without a doubt... if you are competent
I'll turn mine in at the end of the day... tomorrow
That tester is awesome. It’s very sensitive, and they recessed that fuckin button so it doesn’t constantly beep in your pocket
the next version will say " do not use on live circuits"
Well shit! Anyone want to buy a NCV detector?
Competence… don’t they make a pill for that now?
Adderall is great!
Now if they made a chewable…
Oh god. One time it didn’t go down when I swallowed and it started melting in the back of my throat. That’s the nastiest taste in the world and it doesn’t go away until you rinse your mouth out.
Meh who needs it, I usually test hot by putting my dick on it anyway
OSHA has that in their manual too!!
That should be written on…. Sooo many things.
I have pinched myself with my lineman pliers before because of carelessness. If this were printed on those it may have saved me a few blood blisters.
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Don't put your full faith in the tool. If you can have a helper cycle the circuit on and off then you're better off.
Lucky for me, my Fluke doesn’t say that.
I'm not an electrician, how can you get electrocuted by using a voltage tester?
Its not the tool that kills but rather the misuse of the tool.
Well, how would you misuse it?
A no-contact voltage tester is intended to indicate whether or not a conductor or device is live. If it's misused and gives a false reading that the circuit is off when in fact the circuit is still live, the electrician sticking his or her fingers in the box is going to get a life-threatening surprise. Misuse could include not having good batteries in it, or trying to read the wrong conductor or terminal, or not getting it close enough to the conductor, or not turning it on, or having it in the wrong setting (if it has adjustable range), etc
Thanks.
That's the best wand
Last about 3 months
Lmao every time we have to pull a work permit we're reminded that we need a competent electrician and helper
And even then.....it's debatable.
Rules out most users.
That's the joke, competent people don't use these. Fluke tester for life
This *is* a Fluke tester.
Yeah I get it, but I mean something with leads on it my guy. That non contact stuff is too hard to trust. Especially when you are around 277/480 in the states.
Probes live in my toolbag, but the pen lives in my pocket. 16 years of using the fluke ones and never had a false negative. Get the odd false positive but I can live with that. Think I’m on my third one as the speaker doesn’t like being dropped onto concrete
Live dead live baby
These are a great troubleshooting aid but a bad device to use for life-safety purposes.
5 hours in and nobody has noticed....
0 stars Doesn't work I tested the green wire and saw no voltage so i then took the ratchet cutters to the three mains and now I'm dead.
Wait a second. How did a ghost leave a review?!
Well. These things are just like the Lügenstift (one pole phase tester screwdrivers) made for people woh either have no cloue or for the good ones to find live cables where they cannot see them or to find the broken wire. They are no guarantee that the line is not live anymore.
Shit. My bad.
Competent vs qualified the age old question
Damn, I better turn mine in then!
You shouldn’t be holding that
My helper threw out about 5 yes,nopes before I even got to the panel to flip breakers. Dude I’m not usin your beep stick with 2 year old batteries. Now touch it and tell me if it’s tingly or go get the real testers.
A pigtail and an incandescent lamp is better than that crap
Pro tools for careful pros
That's why me no use
Shit, better throw mine away
Nah. If you can read then you are more competent than most.
Hah! I can count to 3, and my boss likes it, any time I make my work order & have to put how many meters of cable I used, my boss earns a tremendous amount of money 1...2...3... Uh, 3 & 1...32...33... Uh, 331...332...333 However, most people don't believe if I tell them I can pull 33333m cable in less than an hour Clients don't like me as well... I have no idea how many meters more I need to pull to get them satisfied...
I thought they were for electicians? - Instrument Tech
The same person lets kids play in 5 gallon buckets.
*qualified*
Eliminates half of my department.
Clever!!! You see how they get out of liability there. And the 2nd sentence wants me to drain the battery. 🤣. Anyway, you guys lost me at Read Manual.
I'm surprised they even sale any..with only competent people should use it.
Competency is a Fluke
There’s an OSHA definition for what they consider to be a competent person.
I hear there is also an OSHA requirement for turds beyond a certain length to be hand-lowered into the porta potty.
I just pulled mine out of my pocket to see if this was there 😂
I'm a component person 😵💫
I always compete with people, does that make me competent?
Don't know if they wanna be advertising that. That loses them a good 75% of their customer base
*Scans Self* Found it
Fuck
Here for a good time not a long time
Well that rules out the majority of electricians. ;P
Well, it really doesn’t shock me
If I do something competently, it's a Fluke.
Dead serious. Saw on peanut M&M’s warning. MAY CONTAIN PEANUTS
Where is the UL symbol ?
Bottom center of the image, a little blurry.
Narcissists will rate themselves as competent.
Competent persons don’t rely on death sticks
Fluke makes rectal thermometers!?
I would trust them if they did!
Also don't look at me too much otherwise I'll break. Seriously, they are \*always\* broken when you need them. To date the best I found is the HT that doubles as a phase sequence checker
My current one is over 10yrs old. Use it all the time
I have replaced my fluke liar stick twice in my 8 years in the trade. Personally, I have never seen any weirdness with these. I’ve had a Klein stick with a flashlight that I never understood; when am I going to be using a proximity tester in the dark? I have flashlights and headlamps for that. The worst thing about that Klein I had was that when it finally shit the bed it did it by giving an alert whenever the light was on OR I just moved it. It would get left on and beep in my bag or the back of my truck.
> when am I going to be using a proximity tester in the dark? I don't think it's so you can use your proximity tester in the dark... I like it because it's nice to always have a proximity tester and always have a flashlight, so having them combined in a way that can fit in most places you could put a pen is pretty handy.
I mean, *I guess*, but maybe I am just a hater when it comes to manufacturers sticking tools on other tools.
I'll agree with this except I always like when the handle for the "key" for a machine enclosure or something is a bottle opener.
I never completely trust my hot stick, but out of all brands I certainly trust my fluke the most. Verify with a fluke meter before touching anything that could shock. I've noticed a lot of the klein ones just act strange while the fluke is a pretty positive response, either hot or not.
Maybe I was only unlucky, then. On the other hand it's not exactly the most cared of between all tools :P
A competent person would use a meter. Not a widow maker.
Explain to me how I would use a meter on a wire that I cannot reach either end of.
A wire that’s not accessible in a box or panel? I never seen a wire that I couldn’t get to the end of, especially one that for some off reason I needed to know was hot. Could you provide me an example?
Easy. You need to identify a wire in an attic. There are always lots of wires in attics. What tool would you use to determine a wire is the one needed worked on? The wire is not labeled along the length of it what it is or what it is associated with. You cannot amp it without opening up the sheathing. If not a proximity tester, what tool would you use to figure the wire you are about to cut?
So all these wires are just up there and don’t terminate into lighting or receptacles? I’m go with they do and your saying you are the helper in the attic. Because the electrician usually doesn’t go in the attic. So the helper is generally not the competent person on the job. Point one. But let’s say you’re working alone. I’m gonna assume your to lazy to walk out of the attic to the receptacle or light to identify which one it is. So you use a tool that commonly fails to read live voltage. Which is precisely why it’s called a widow maker. Back to my original point. A competent person isn’t lazy and doesn’t use a tool that commonly fails. He leaves the attic to said receptacle or light. See if it has voltage. Locates it the attic. Make sense yet?
You need to make a splice in an attic. It doesn't matter the reason in this hypothetical. How do do determine if the wire is hot or not?
You figure out which wire it is before you cut it. Tone it if you have to. That said, your way might work. But I lost my favorite pair of dikes because my tester lied and I get false positives all the time.
Thats why you have the second turn it off and on while you have your stick on it; to be sure. Also, you cannot tone out a hot wire with any tool I know of and there could be something on the circuit that prevents a toner from signaling.
Any circuit breaker finder will do it. The klein one is pretty decent. I have one that does both live and dead wires, it has a 60 hz filter you turn on when it is live to tune out the interference.
So you’re trying to find a Romex cable that’s being used in another receptacle (I’m assuming. Or we could say a light) and splice another cable to it for what purpose? Why not competently run a new circuit like you should? You sound like the type of guy that does it cheaper, and then the home owner has to hire me for twice as much to fix everything you fucked up.
Dude, you're missing the point. Shit happens, things change, and sometimes it is impractical to run a new wire from an existing endpoint. Attic splices happen and you're just a stubborn old man with a holier-than-thou attitude if you pretend they don't. But to be completely honest with you, you are arguing against a very handy and affordable tool that comes in handy very often because I guess you just think you're better than it is, and I just don't have time to keep interacting with you.
I’m 40 bro. lol. I’m just competent and don’t trust my life to a tool that’s called widow maker because I’m too lazy to do a job the right way lol. It’s not “holier than thou”. It’s called doing a job competently. But do you. I’m sure you’re making a local competent electrician a lot of money. Cheers brother.
Well that rules you out.
Yeah but it's not the competent people that need these, nom sayin?
I am gonna have to disagree with you on that one, fella. Every electrician should have one of these in their kit.
You are right ✅️
Absolutely a great tool to have. That is if you’re competent!