I live in the South, so I get this a lot. I always engaged them politely. I've had these discussions so many times that I can expect what their arguments will be and answer them. The one that does seem to resonate with most people is the gas savings. Some of the more interesting things I've heard:
"EVs can't be used for a road trip! You'll run out of battery" I pointed out that I just got back from a 2500 mile road trip. I was accused of renting an ICE and hiding my car to convince people EVs can do road trips. I laughed a lot at that one. That neighbor doesn't talk to me anymore.
"EVs can't work in the cold!" I point out that I drove a Model 3 in Buffalo for 3 years. With a 100 mile/day commute. I'm usually accused of lying.
"What are you going to do if the power goes out?" As if gas pumps run on magic and not electricity. I also point out that I could use my generator to charge my car if need be and still be more efficient than their gas car.
"EV heaters can't heat the car in cold like this (-20 F, was in Syracuse NY at the time)" This was my favorite because I had my Tesla preheating next to me. I offered to let him get it to see how warm it was compared to his F-150 after a couple minutes, but he refused. Didn't change his mind, just refused to acknowledge the evidence literally in front of him.
Exactly! My EV is an *asset* when the electricity goes off; not a liability. I run an inverter and some extension cords from the car to keep the refrigerator, some lights, and the electronics energized.
I don't yet own an EV, I expect my next car to be an EV.
I'm hoping V2H is far more of a 'standard' feature by the time my ICE car finally breaks down.
I'm honestly a bit frustrated by how slow the V2H/V2G standards are being adopted/created.
Just an FYI, there an extra step with V2H that you have to disconnect your house from the grid in an emergency or else you might kill a line worker.
If you want "instant" backup then you'll need to install special hardware to automatically do that.
Not trying to mansplain it anything, just that it's a common aspect I found myself and others forgetting.
Usually we'd want a dedicated sub-panel with the EV and emergency circuits on them to make managing all of it easier, lest someone in the house turn on a sound system and drain your EV battery quick.
> Just an FYI, there an extra step with V2H that you have to disconnect your house from the grid in an emergency or else you might kill a line worker.
Yup, the same exact kind of transfer switch/subpanel arrangement one uses for a generator.
I'm FAR more interested in V2H then V2G, the later seems like an anti feature to me.
No, lineworkers treat lines as live even when they’re not.
The real reason is that your equip can’t power the neighbourhood, and will trip from too much power being requested if you don’t have an inverter or ats switch in front of it stopping it from feeding onward to the upstream supply
You can use about anything to turn a generator. A few solar panels and some patience would get you far a well. I've seen some e bike trailer rigs with just about unlimited range.
Great idea. I’m going to have to check out my inverter situation. I have a generator and a house hookup but the inverter idea has some great potential with my MachE. Thanks.
The DC/DC converter in my Volt can produce about 2,000 Watts to the 12 VDC battery. Thus, I can run a 1,500 Watt inverter. I turn off all the accessories, of course.
Thank you for the kind words, but I "crowd-sourced" the idea from another EV forum. It helps when we all experiment and share our results of what works and what doesn't.
I have a 1,000 Watt pure sine inverter. That is plenty of continuous power for my needs, but it struggles to start my refrigerator. If I had it to do again, I would get a 1,500 Watt or 2,000 Watt inverter to get a higher momentary overload rating.
That is my favorite argument! I can fuel my ev from the grid, but also gasoline, diesel, wind, solar, natural gas, or propane. It's a perfect prepper vehicle! (I have an rv with solar panels and a dual mode generator (gas/propane). The rest are just options I don't own.)
How is a gas vehicle better again when the power goes out. Haven't had anyone try to argue after that.
It’s like, if your power goes out, so what? Most people keep their cars charged to at least 50-80% on a nightly basis.
Then people are like, well what if the power is out for a week? Then I’d have to ask: if conditions are so bad your power is out for a week, why would you be going anywhere?
If it’s a temporary outage, you can probably drive 15-30 minutes to the neighboring town that has power and find a DCFC station.
I’ve just never understood how people can argue in such bad faith with zero interest in learning real facts.
I have a golf cart with a residential solar panel for a roof and an inverter. The last time a lengthy power outage hit, that golf cart + panel kept our refrigerator and bar fridge going for over 15 hours during daylight with <10% total battery drain thanks to the panel. Neighbors' generators were running out of gas after less than 8 hours and the gas stations had no power and were therefore closed. The cart kept things going at night another time during a storm for 13 hours.
I wish solar panels where a realistic option for me.
I'd have to kill several 80 to 90 year old trees to make it realistic, in doing so I'd raise my AC costs dramatically & destroy a large chunk of my soul.
That’s the best evidence. “Oh really, is that so?That hasn’t been my experience, does your EV do that?”
It’s easy to get “facts” from your own echo chamber. It’s hard to counter real facts from the person driving one though. In the end, I suggest that perhaps saving money isn’t for them.
Yep. The charging overnight shuts down a lot of waiting arguments vs gas stations.
I don’t try to change anybody’s mind. Sometimes it simply “yep, an EV might not work for you.” I’m not a salesperson. I don’t care if you get one or not. For us, it was ideal. We should have had one 5 years ago, but selection wasn’t great and money was tight.
We bought ours 8 months ago and it’s worked out perfect for us. Over the winter charging infrastructure grew an extreme amount. It’s still not enough for mass adoption, but we no longer worry about having to wait our turn at the only charger on a trip.
I imagine for most of the pig headed ones it's way better to just leave them with having had a pleasant conversation with some guy who actually likes his electric car.
How long does it take to charge? About 30 seconds as far as I can tell. That's how long it takes me to plug in at the end of the day and unplug when I wake up in the morning.
Or, if I'm at an DC fast charge station at Walmart, the answer is "I don't know it will be done before I'm done shopping."
> Or, if I'm at an DC fast charge station at Walmart, the answer is "I don't know it will be done before I'm done shopping."
From today's trip 40 to 86% while peeing and grabbing breakfast at the rest stop, on the way back 50 to 76% while peeing and changing a diaper.
Free EA so also a thing
> I'm usually accused of lying.
Projection. They lie, so they think you'd do the same. It has nothing to do with you.
It's generally fine to avoid people that upon meeting them, would accuse you of being a liar. I've never met a person I got along well with, that would verbally accuse someone right off the bat. It shows a lack of maturity.
A trick in life is quickly identifying idiots and quickly avoid them. I use this a lot on Reddit.
> "EVs can't work in the cold!"
This is a fun one because Norway, one of the coldest countries in the world, has the highest EV adoption rate with over 90% of new vehicle sales being electric. Do people think they just don't drive for six months out of the year?
And sodium ion batteries are now just starting to hit the market, and they should be damn near impervious to the cold.
"What are you going to do if the power goes out?"
This one always amuses me too. I've 51 years old and have never had a power outage more than a handful of hours. So I'd wait for the power to come back on and finish charging. If the power at my house was out for an extended period of time, I'd go to a public charger. If the power was out in the entire city I'm not sure where I'm driving so much that range would be a problem. And, if I lived some place extended power outages were likely to happen, I'd have a backup generator. It's like people think when the power goes out your EV just magically stops working.
I saw a town have a total blackout in the middle of bum fuck PA and I was sitting in my Tesla at a supercharger annoyed while watching dozens of cars pull up the gas station across the street pull up and leave without being able to get gas lmao
What do you tell people when they say that superchargers (and by extension the generator like you mentioned) run on gas? I’ve heard that talking point a few times and assume those people are approaching the argument from the green energy angle.
That's an interesting one, and one situation it helps to have a polite conversation rather than an argument. The "right" answer is that 1) the chargers aren't run 100% on fossil fuel like ICE cars, and 2) power generations are more efficient than gas or diesel engines, especially at grid scale. But that won't work on some people just because they'y been hearing the opposite on Fox News for years.
Another way I approach it for more extreme people is to say that I get to drive a fast BMW without having to worry about the gas prices. It's fun to drive. The environmental benefits are a nice bonus, but not why I bought the car. A quick ride will often show them. As an example, I have a friend who got a special edition Challenger Scat Pack. The cars were about the same money with similar acceleration. His sounds amazing, but I can get that power without crying at the gas station later.
Oh it’s all been polite conversation and not actually a verbal argument. I’ve usually gotten out of the conversation about it by saying I bought my Model 3 not because of the environment, but simply because I wanted an EV.
I’ve also heard the argument that a city grid couldn’t handle an entire city of EVs and I kinda just laughed at that one. I’m not sure if Fox News pushed that or what, but that’s an interesting one to me.
I always use the speed and acceleration as that’s hard to argue against. It works really well with people that own or like performance vehicles. The truck crowd gets the “I have never had any need or desire to own a truck.” For the rest of them I just tell them “if you aren’t paying my car note…” or something like that”you do you…buy what you want”
I was driving from Austin to Abilene last summer and my dad warned me to be careful because, "batteries don't like heat."
I had him on Bluetooth and my eyes instinctively rolled so hard that I almost crashed.
I live in northern Wisconsin and one of my favorite features is how quickly they heat up and I have a garage so it's warm toasty and ready to go even when it's absolutely freezing out. Certainly uses more battery but it's so much better than my ICE in the winter for general use commuting.
My response to a recent critic: “Are you thinking about buying an EV?” “No! Never!” “Oh, so you’re kinda like a vegan showing up at a Barbeque.”
They don’t like that comparison.
Well your neighbor sucks.
When I lived in California my neighbor across the street once shouted at me asking how I'd charge my Tesla up in the zombie apocalypse and laughed.
We had the most ridiculous yet totally serious conversation as he realized he didn't think that through and an electric vehicle is actually the perfect zombie apocalypse vehicle.
We discussed how unlike in shows and movies, gasoline would be gone from stations within a fucking day. Hoarded supplies mostly gone within weeks. For the ones able to conserve it, it will degrade anyhow.
Meanwhile I had solar panels and powerwalls. I'd be driving daily scavenging like its nobody's business. The whole neighborhood would be depending on me as the only with with EVs and two of them at that. They'll be dependant as hell on the guy 2 houses down as the only other one with solar panels. But he was my buddy and my other car would probably end up parked at his house since we'd be doing a lot more driving a scavenging those days.
Long distance driving would probably still be totally doable, just more complicated and slower. While all fossil fuels would be gone quickly, solar panels, hydro dams, and windmills would live on for years. Given the scenario, they'd probably be kept in service long long long past their official lifespan. Given electric vehicles suddenly will become the only viable non-horse-based transportation, a need for an off grid network would arise. People would likely buy/salvage/etc solar panels and create rigged up hotel "charging stations" all along highways with spray painted highway signs pointing out their locations. Every population center would likely have a horse drawn trailer with battery banks to service those who found themselves up shit's creek and needing help before raiders pick their dead car apart.
It was the best conversation I'd ever had with an EV skeptic, as being a friendly neighbor and not a piece of shit, he actually started coming up with half of that himself after the initial "yea, you're right, gas would be fucking GONE" realization. A fun conversation too obviously lol.
I had some ask me about what happens if the power goes out. I answered honestly that the last time power went out I drove across town and charged up while doing my grocery shopping. It cost me $16 and I went home and plugged my fridge into the car until the power came back on. It was great . That made them think.
Hello, fellow EV driving WNYer who moved to the south. My Mach E did great on my move from Roc to OKC with a detour to Philly. I gave myself a little extra time and each charge stop ended up being a nice opportunity to unwind. I even charged to 100% at a park somewhere in the mountains just to spend some extra time on a hiking path.
My Nextdoor app had a long EV bashing thread recently. i tried to think of something to say but thought better of it. I just 'liked' the post of the one person trying to inject facts into the conversation.
A politician who I love but was redistricted away from me but is now running for governor posted about a grant for electric school busses. Every comment was crap about how bad EVs are for the environment and how she's getting paid off (she actually keeps trying to pass bills to prevent congress members from trading stock). Anyways i celebrated it and tagged my local EV group on the post - just to show them - but they started arguing with some of the idiots.
Its everywhere. But my husband often says, of this kind of thing, that its coming and they are just fighting against the tide. still its so painful.
I bought a used 2021 Premium with hail damage and came out pretty good. Replaced the hood and looks like new and seems great so far. I saved several thousand dollars, too. So far very happy man. This was my dream car, too.
I still think my Kona is cute . . tho i had to add 2 cushions to make it comfortable enough to run errands in. So I do wonder if some day I can hand it down to offspring and get something else. The kids are all taller than I am so it shouldn't be as bad for them. but i never even test drove anything else.
My wife prefers her Kona over both the Ford Lightning and Volvo XC40 Recharge, if it helps any. The Kona is a solid car in the crossover segment which is underrated by most, so you've got a great car there!
[Here is a great article about the horse vs automobile controversy at the turn of the century.](https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2017/01/get-horse-americas-skepticism-toward-first-automobiles/) It’s so funny how the same types of supply chain arguments were made against the original vehicles. The article also highlights an automaker who did an 800 mile trek with vehicle skeptics. Excellent article
I love pointing out that every generation has complained about the previous one. Even my husband says "No, but these young people are REALLY worse"
[https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/](https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/)
Yep - different discipline but if you go back far enough there are multiple books and articles that opine that ‘recorded music’ won’t ever match the quality and purism of sheet music
Yeah it's not that the doubters aren't raising legitimate problems, it's that they assume they'll never be solved.
Buying an electric car makes little economic sense for most people today. They're more expensive than an ICE car and can't go as far or refuel as quickly. But unless we've reached the apex of battery and EV technology (we haven't), that won't always be the case.
But yeah it requires a little faith that at least some of the billions of dollars going into battery research and EVs will eventually bear fruit.
Cynics survive, but they rarely prosper.
I’m 80, a conservative, long-time car buff and was a BEV skeptic until I drove one. Now I wouldn’t drive anything else given the choice. The things sell themselves unless you just like the noise and smells.
I like keeping track of missing dogs and occasional recommendations for contractors. On the other hand, the drama about the Waffle House going up in this high end suburb . . . . wow
I used to go on ND for contractor and restaurant reviews, but then noticed people recommending really dogshit contractors and restaurants. I realized that some people really either have no idea what they're talking about, or just want to hear themselves talk whether they're right or extremely wrong. Cured me of ND "recommendations" right quick, that's for sure!
Go out into the boonies where there's like 3 restaurants in 20 miles and they're all fast food. The strangest thing, they all think KFC is just peak fine dining.
Ask them how they feel about Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iraq, Qatar, ect. How was the 1970's energy crisis? Do they remember waiting in line for gas?
How would they feel if an American company built something in America that eliminated our need to rely on OPEC for energy?
Now how would they feel if those OPEC + Russia countries realized this decided to spend a bunch of money spreading lies about these products in an attempt to retain their control - and that this persons direct feelings about EV's are a result of that influence?
Mass adoption of EV's is actually a huge benefit for the USA because we no longer need OPEC and need to be politically beholden to them.
It’s especially dumb any Nextdoor user would bash on EVs, as they directly improve the air quality on their streets. In contrast, when someone with a gas car has the engine running you can see and smell the pollution. Wanting to breathe clean air should be nonpartisan.
Contrarians.
Tell them that Biden has forbidden them from touching a red hot stove top. They'll burn the shit out of themselves just to be damned if sleepy Joe is gonna tell em what to do.
The whole "paid off by environmental groups" is one of the most annoying arguments I've ever heard. Because between them and the fossil fuel industry, which has more money they throw around? And which has a proven history of paying people to side with them? And yet, I've heard this same argument over and over as if that immediately explains how anything environmentally conscious is actually really bad and we should abandon it.
Now I sound like Mr conspiracy theory, yet I sometimes wonder if the fossil fuel companies don't have trolls in their payroll somewhere.... Or maybe someone out there is waging a very effective disinformation campaign / but surely even they know that all they can do is delay the inevitable for a few more years....
Fleet vehicles make even MORE sense to be all EV! And electric school busses are nigh-on the best possible use case for EVs and nigh-on the worst for diesel. Lots of stop/starts, lots of low speeds, no long distances, etc. That's basically a purpose-built use case for electric!
people are sometimes fearful of major changes to a lifestyle, probably something similar was going around when we transitioned from the horse to the "horseless carriage". People will get used to it just takes time
The big difference today is the enormous power and reach of social media. It's a lot easier to manipulate people, and disinformation today spreads like wildfire. There are concerted campaigns that actively promote falsehoods in order to advance an agenda, and the people most likely to be affected are those who live in an information bubble and never hear alternative viewpoints. I would imagine the typical "cruise demographic" probably falls into that category.
Agree. We own the first electric car in 6 months. Not long ago we went for, our first the long ride to the seaside in Poland (around 500km one way). Normally we charge the car 99% at home so we were little, but stressful about how it will be :) I need to admit the first 500km was not easy - Audi's built in EV charging planing navigation mess the trip, and we missed two charging stations 😅 we managed to find another one with just 20km range left 🙂 That was tough lesson about not to rely on technology. It is better to plan the trip before - we also switched to ABRP NAVIGATION (much better). The EV charging Infrastructure in Poland is still not great so the first 500km on motorway with high speed was quite stressful (messing with apps and cards) For example my Audi charging card (never used before) was not activated, and the customer support was not speaking in Polish - could be stressful experience for someone. Another time for some reason, Audi took us to the Tesla charging station, which is not compatible lol. Anyway on our way back we knew what to do and what to expect, so the travel was normal as usual 😉 There is no doubt that EV cars are the future - the technology will get better and better, as well as infrastructure. I'm super excited about it ⚡⚡⚡
Our first 6 months were similar. It’s not the cars fault we needed to learn about changing. We’ve spent $58 on charging to go 16,500kms and about $40 of that was in the first 5000kms.
I wanted to make sure I knew how to do it, and that it worked before I really needed it. The next trip you take will be so much less stressful because of the knowledge you gained.
I still get anxiety when the car goes below 40%. I’m getting better though. As long as we’ve got enough to get home, I relax.
This is the nature of people. We hate things getting taken away, it's hard coded. I forget what the effect is called. Sometimes we can't see past our lizard brains.
Actually, it did happen. Many people were annoyed at the noise and smell of the first cars, arguing they were an environmental and safety hazard. There was also a bit of jealousy towards those who could afford them.
They were right up to a point: horses (in large quantities) were worse, especially with the manure that was pushed daily against the houses and contributed to diseases in cities through proliferation of rats and cockroaches.
What is better for the world? A few billion horses, 5 billion individual petrol cars, or one billion autonomous interconnected shared EVs?
If you look at the data on the recently-posted https://www.pewresearch.org/data-labs/2024/05/23/electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-in-the-u-s/, more than where you live, or charging infrastructure, or age, what determines if you'd consider an EV is political affiliation. Just waiting isn't going to age people out or let them adjust; we have to remove anti-EV from the talking points of the Republican party if we want opinions to change.
I don’t worry that it won’t happen in the rest of the world but I do worry about the us. The moment things became political, EVs started an uphill climb.
When the rest of the world goes electric, we might be just forced to anyway though.
The irony of people who dismiss global warming as a "hoax" suddenly pretending to care about the environmental impact of lithium mining is not lost on me.
They are shills for the fossil fuel industry and they lack the courage to admit it.
No matter how many times the fossil fuel industry talking points are debunked with facts, they just keep repeating them. In the internet age, they don't even have to argue; they just drown the truth in lies.
My dad is turning 78 this year. He has an Audi etron (Q8). He loves it and has said repeatedly he will never own an ICE vehicle again. We are in Canada, he’s happy never having to go to the gas pump in winter ever again. He’s had it for almost 3 years, loves it.
He still has range anxiety even though he had used it on road trips. A few weeks ago we were all at a family dinner and he was saying he’d want his next EV to have 500-600km of range. So, I told him “you have an EV that you need to stop and go pee at least twice before recharging, now you want one that requires a minimum of 4 bathroom breaks between charges?” We all laughed, but I’m right and deep down, he gets it.
The rest of the world is moving to EV so regardless of the idiots, they’ll lose ICE. I typically just tell conservatives “yeah I didn’t buy this for any environment stuff, it’s my emergency prep for hurricanes because I can power my house from it.” Conservatives love prepping, so I just appeal to that side of them.
That’s the way to do it. All about practicality and money. Their environmental argument gets deflated when you tell them “who cares about the environment? This thing saves me money.”
I mean, I care about the environment, but they don’t need to know that. I’m driving for almost free. I generate my own EV fuel.
Yeah I didn't buy my bolt for the environment. I bought it because my wife could charge it at work for free and even if we charged at hime, I'm paying 20 cents per KWh at most. Work out to $13 for about 210 miles. We were spening $100 a week in gas for our ICE vehicles. Now we are down to about $120 a month.
It's amazing how bad people are at basic math and economics.
Every time boomers reminisce about how gas was $1/gallon thirty years ago, I love to point out how I'm paying half that for the equivalent mileage in an EV right now, not even adjusting for inflation. And that's when I have to pay anything to charge up at all.
Then I reminisce about how disruptive it was to have to take my ICE in for oil changes and emissions testing every few months. So glad I live in modern times without dealing with all that absolute bullshit the chumps put themselves through.
I deliberately brought my mobile solar rig and my instantpot to the town chili cookoff.
People started out triggered but I'd explain that I set this up to power my freezers before the (well known recent power incident). They weren't equipped to argue against a garage full of venison.
The answer to anyone claiming batteries are bad for the environment:
"All energy has an environmental impact but at least a battery lasts 20 years and is 90% recyclable, unlike burnt oil"
They don't actually care though. It's just a rhetorical stratrgy to undermine the environmental credentials of electrication irrespective of the reality of the situation.
Believe me, I have more than a little ambivalent about being on one, and this one in particular from some of the greenwashing efforts.
I don't think I'll be taking another any time soon.
I don’t blame you for taking one. I have as well. Leisure just like anything else, for everyday people, has limited choices. A lot of folks would never be able to have those experiences without cruises. Does that make it right? I don’t know.
The key is, EVs don’t have to be about the environment. I’ve had solar for 12 years. The economics changed on solar and now it’s all about saving money, not saving the environment. EVs will be the same.
When I tell people what it cost to drive my car, and that I don’t pay an electricity bill, it deflates any argument pretty quickly. When they bring up that it won’t save the planet, I tell them I don’t care, they’re saving me money.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m doing it for environmental reasons too, but I just say that’s a side effect.
You need to use the "prepper" angle! I do. You know every single prepper is a hard core conservative. What is more "prepper" than solar, backup batter and an EV? When the gas pumps go down or the gas supply dwindles, guess whose car is gonna be running still? Yep.. your EV.
If the EV talk makes you uncomfortable, you can always just change the subject and say "As an atheist...." and then you'll have a whole new set of things for them to hurl at you.
Why do you care? When I see that the person I talk to is one of those guys and they ask if I even have enough range to get to work and back, I just say that no I have to stop two times on the way to work taking two hours for each charge and then by the time I get there work is finished so I have to again drive back home. Sometimes I also say that it randomly catches fire so I stop from time to time to put it out.
They kinda back off after that
I’ll ask them if they’ve found the gas station that will fill their tank every night while they are asleep.
You can almost smell the brain cells burning.
I get comments all the time, always inferring that I'm some leftist nut. I stopped trying to argue, all I say is that ICE cars are too slow for me. This always infuriates people who want to argue. One clown offered to race me and it was embarrassing..
Seeing the look on some dude’s face in a charger when I bolt off the line in a bolt and am 100 feet past the intersection and they are halfway through it is priceless.
I only do it when I need to get over a lane though.
I have stopped trying to debate environmentalism. In fact, you can trash 90% of their prepared talking points by starting out with “F%#^ the environment, am I right?”
Then I talk only about things I think will appeal to them:
1. Acceleration.
2. Full “tank of gas” every time I leave the house.
3. American made 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸.
4. I’m not sending my money to OPEC (appeal to their racism).
5. The government can ration and tax gasoline but they can’t stop me from charging my car from the sun that lands on my property (speaking to their disdain for government and appeal to property rights).
6. Negligible maintenance (cost and time).
7. In a doomsday situation (Zombie, Rapture, or any other event that makes gas scarce), I’ll still be able to “fuel” my car using wind or solar.
Honestly, you have to meet them on their ground.
Drive a F150 lightning and have had EVs since 2015.
Go to a “rural/ farm area” coffee shop sometimes before runs or work stuff.
Always filled with old timers and usually get lots of comments (some good!) when I open frunk and it’s usually the Fox News greatest hits playlist.
Last time I pulled in there was a cyber truck SURROUNDED by boomers 😂. The most uneventful cup of coffee EVER for me haha!
I'm curious did the boomers love or hate the cybertruck? On the one hand, it is a large ugly EV which they would stereotypically hate. On the other hand, it is Musks personal creation, and he gets a lot of love from right wing media nowadays because of his politics. Or were they just fascinated with it in the way any person would be fascinated by a train wreck.
Conservatives who bring up "batteries are bad for the environment" are always funny to me. They want to drill oil everywhere they can and now FINALLLLLY, for the first time in their lives, seem to care about the environment. They're so full of shit.
I never discuss EV's with luddites. I just let them drive my EV. Shuts them right up.
Most people are not easily convinced by words. It's not true if they can't feel it. They only change their views by experiencing things.
Yeah, my brother -- an amazing dude -- lives in Florida. He's conservative and whenever EV's came up he's pull out all the old talking points. I just got a Rivian and haven't told him. He'll find out when I pick him up from the airport and have him drive home. Pretty sure he'll be impressed by the time we get there.
It baffles me when people talk about EV’s being bad for the environment. Yes, everything that is manufactured has an impact.
Since burning fossil fuels already occurs, let’s completely disregard those impacts, as well as the impacts caused but ICE car manufacturers, but EV’s need to account for every supply chain detail as well as source of every electron stored in the batteries. /s
I swear all ICE enthusiasts have Stockholm syndrome.
People seem to have a really hard time estimating the environmental impact of operating gas vehicles. They have a conception that the impact of building a car dwarfs the impact of operating a car, which is just completely wrong and gets wrong-er the longer you use the car
I've started working on battery powered devices at work and it's really aided my understanding of the significance of long-term and repeated energy uses. Sure, it uses a lot of energy to build a car, but it's one-and-done. Refueling and driving a car is a much smaller energy use but happens for such a long time that it completely outstrips the initial energy input
Exactly! I just had some old guy tell me last night that EVs batteries are as heavy as shit, comparable to industrial forklifts and they are destroying the roads. There's no way any EV aside from a cyber truck or Hummer weighs more than a F-150. These people have no critical thinking skills and just swallow whatever they hear on Fox News or wherever they get this b******* information.
I sort of had an experience like this in a way. I had Google Glass. People would ask honest questions and generally I would try to engage, be polite and let them give Glass a try. I'd always offer to take a pic of them wearing Glass and send it to them. People were genuinely interested and friendly. It was largely a very positive experience. I was supposed to be a brand ambassador after all.
But occasionally... If the person was obnoxious and my patience had worn thing... I became a Glasshole. :)
Them: "Are you recording me?"
Me: "No... why? Are you about to do something interesting?"
Them: "Can you tell my name?"
Me: "Only if you are on the sex offender registry... want me to check?"
And my favorite... "Can it see through clothes?"
Me: "yes."
I never realized how many people are constantly taking road trips until EVs started getting more popular. Seems like everybody I know usually flies out when they go on vacation.
Them: “What will you do if the electricity goes out?”
Me: “Well, how will they pump the gas if the electricity goes out?”
Them: “They can just use a generator.”
Me: “Oh, generators make gas?”
Them: “No, generators make electricity to power the gas pumps.”
Me: “Sorry, what did you say they make?”
🤔🙃🤯
You did good, meeting people who drive electric is going to help change people's minds. Yeah, you might not have convinced them (nor should you try to pressure them) but a couple more encounters with people who are happy not paying such high gas prices or who can drive their EVs in cold climates and they might give them another look.
One of my co-workers has a Model 3 and my boss got a Lightning and discussing how cheap they are to run has dramatically increased the office's acceptance of EVs. Everyone is interested in them, especially if they have a long commute. My company is already a big supporter of solar so they have some charging stations installed and are looking at putting in more, closer to our building, so a lot of people rarely even have to charge at home
lol I feel like I’m on the same cruise as you because I was wearing a Rivian shirt and a person from Wisconsin began talking shit to me about how impractical they are while we were out at the pool.
it's amazing how effective right wing propoganda is. They all say the same things. It's just a couple of heavily reinforced points that kinda conform to how they think it should work and all of a sudden you've got everyone saying the same thing.
It really is a fascinating social experiment.
To be fair people just don’t like change. If when they were born and the only thing was electric vehicles, and something new came out and you could instantly add fuel like a gas station they would fight that also. It’s like when Covid happened and people I know had to work at home and they fought it and hated it. They when we were allowed to go back to work a few years later, must never can back because they found out they liked working from home. At the end a lot of people really hate change of any kind.
If they’re open and willing to listen, educate them. Old people are fed with misinformation everyday so it makes sense that they’re skeptical about EVs. But if they start getting defensive and rude, ignore them.
It’s not better anywhere else, even in most of Europe and it comes down to a number of factors imo.
* There is still a strong consumer preference for ICE vehicles.
* Gas prices are still not high enough to dissuade most people from buying gas cars. In Europe high gas prices are matched by high electricity prices so savings on fuels are typically only 50-30%.
* There aren’t any financial measures to disadvantage buying an ICE car or keeping it on the road.
* I think most negative or sensationalist EV talking points have been disproven by rational media and studies. But I think a lot of them still persist in people’s minds and conversations as a means to justify their inherent bias against EVs or rather strong preference for ICE vehicles.
I tried posting in my neighborhood FB group that I had a home charger for sale and wanted to offer it cheap there before posting in Marketplace. The post has been sitting "pending" approval for 10 days now. I suspect the admins are anti- EV.
I gave up cruises as I found out that they are one of the biggest polluters in the world. We have a PHEV & an EV. They aren't the very best for the environment, but they are a good step in the right direction.
My rule is to not talk politics, religion, or EVs unless I know my audience.
The most important thing I have ever implemented in my adult life is an abundant use of "You are probably right."
I've avoided so many wasteful hours trying to persuade people who simply aren't open to other opinions.
The BEST comeback I have to a hardcore right winger is bringing up "preppers". I'll say "you know... nothing is more 'prepper' than having an EV with solar on your house and a backup battery. When armageddon comes and the gasoline stops flowing I'm still gonna be able to charge my car because I'm not reliant on gas or the grid. My setup is the most 'prepper' thing there is".
Me too. I've gone on ski trips with my Bolt, and a lot of the hotels in the UP already have L1 outlets on every parking spot because the old ICE cars need to run their block heaters.
Definitely see the sad irony in talking EVs with people who are on a giant gas guzzler in the middle of the sea. I recently saw a video of what cruise ships sound like underwater. It’s the equivalent of living next to the construction of a high rise building. Driving an EV to help the climate then jumping on a cruise ship for vacation is just wild to me.
I found the winning argument. Has worked on 2 separate occasions where I literally saw a shift in their complete demeanor, there's no real comeback. You being from Canada would have to slightly tweak it but it goes something like this:
I want America to be a world leader in emerging tech, but China has totally beat us in EVs. Scandinavian countries buy a ton of EVs but outside Tesla they buy Chinese EVs because there really aren't any US options, and most those Teslas are made in China with Chinese batteries anyway. It's happening in Australia as well. If we want to beat China, we've gotta get US EVs exported to the world...but we've gotta build them first.
I will talk EVs, but I don’t try to change minds. I’ll admit that my situation is different than most around me because I produce my own electricity. Have been for 12 years.
I usually hit them with the fact we’ve driven 16,500kms and it’s cost us $58 in charging so far. I also throw in we haven’t paid an electrical bill in 5 years either.
If somebody wants to believe “facts” they got from internet, I just say that hasn’t been my experience, or nod and suggest that perhaps EVs aren’t for them then.
When they bring up charging times, I say I don’t know, I charge in my garage while I sleep.
I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind.
Seeing as I am, er, of a certain age, and love to cruise, I would be in that demographic. But, I know what you mean. We love both the electrics we have owned for different reasons.
As for talking to others about EVs: coming from a very red state in the US, I get treated like an idiot. I just chalk it up to their ignorance and move on.
On the subject of taking breaks on a trip, I know several people that like to drive 12+ hours at a go, stopping maybe once for 15 min for gas and bodily functions. I'm too old for that, LOL. Some even keep a bottle in the car for when they don't want to stop ... ick.
My dad ripped me over getting solar going on a rant about how the panels are awful for the environment. I let him say his little piece, eventually mom asked how much it reduced my power bill. When I showed them he shut up real quick.
People like you mentioned know the truth about EVs being a better choice. They choose to believe their lies.
Thats okay, just let them be in their own world of lying to themselves.
My EV, the only vehicle I own, can’t be used for road trip. It’s an electric unicycle that gets 40 miles of range. You know what I do when I want to go on a road trip? rent a car. Costs $40/day. Between principle, interest, insurance, maintenance, repairs, registration, parking—how much do you pay for a car every month? I take less than 1 month’s savings per year to do the entire road trip.
People just don’t want to do the math—on more than just cars/EVs.
When they talk about batteries being bad I say “The environmental impact from one person’s car is pretty minuscule but maybe I’m not as big as an environmentalist as you are” they don’t like being called that. Especially when the only time they care is when it helps bring antiEV
I've had a few of these conversations. It's funniest when it's at a mutual friend's and they know I have one but I drove a different vehicle.
One of them, they bitched, then asked to drive my '65 Mustang to my house. I said sure, let hime drive. Then we took my EV back to our mutual friend's.
He quickly changed his tune about them. Suddenly they were all right, he loves the acceleration, and wishes they worked for his constant traveling job.
Weird.
The weirdest part to me is that electric cars are actually BETTER at most everything people like about cars. If most people would actually drive one, they'd be shocked.
I have something of an advantage as someone that is classical conservative leaning but also super pro-solar/EV for the independence/cost/performance/us made reasons more than environmental. I don't mind the environmental benefit but it isn't why I got them either.
People seem to take it better from someone on a roughly similar side of the isle even though I make sure to conveniently leave out that I despise Trump.
Money talks. Keep it to that and you can convert many. I tell people that I pay less than 4 cents per mile, which bests the most efficient hybrid vehicle by more than 2x. From there, if they wander into the bogus argument about batteries degrading, you know it's really just not worth the time since they obviously haven't done and won't do any of the math.
Don’t worry, history keeps repeating itself, I’m sure when gas cars first came about, all the horse carriage riders were like “that’s crazy! Where are we going to get gas, what you need to build gas stations? My horses just eat grass!”. We are going to get the same thing when more hydrogen cars come about, and we are going to get the same again when nuclear fission cars come about.
I drive an EV because I don’t like supporting OPEC/the Middle East with gas purchases. Not an argument many use to connect with conservatives, but it should be.
This was an interesting thread… my two cents on the charging infrastructure and how I respond is by saying “this is the worst it will be, each year there will be more and more places to charge”.
I usually sell the idea as an option for everyone. Like free choice. EVs aren't for everyone, but they are great options for many. And most of the bad press on them is dishonest at best. Instead I try to rephrase the concept as a free market option that is pro-capitalism and any attempt to prevent them from having equal opportunities in the market is just anti capitalist and even boarding on communism.
After that I usually get an opening to talk about how range fill ups don't really work the same way as gas cars. You don't have to charge your phone to 100% to get hours of use out of them. Since charging to 80% is much faster than that last 20%, most drivers just don't do that on long trips. I point out that everyone I have talked to with a Tesla feels like they don't really spend any more time at a charging station than they did at the pump with an ICE vehicle.
I also point out that I drive trains. They burn diesel to turn a generator that powers electric traction motors. They are literally EVs! Because electric motors are the most efficient way of moving things around.
Then I remind them that EVs aren't for everyone, and that's ok. Because consumer choice is king in this country. And for good reason. I don't really want my paycheck getting absorbed by oil subsidies. Businesses should stand on their own feet and not rely on politicians to bail them out for making bad products or charging way too much for gas.
Thanks for posting this. It immediately reminded me of a similar thing 2 weeks ago when I attended my company's client conference. I was working my group's booth with a Sr. Director in my group who is from ATL and leads an East Coast-based team. I'm an IC and from SoCal but got an MBA focused on Corporate Sustainability a decade ago.
I had to bite my lip so hard and not take the bait when somehow our friendly banter and work and life during some downtime got on the EV track.
I guess I live in a bubble because I was completely dumbfounded that this guy started talking all about how mining for lithium for the batteries is just so absolutely awful for the environment and EVs are clearly bad cars for the environment. I've read these arguments before online, but usually someone chimes in to point out the very obvious constant degradation of the environment at ever step from extraction, transportation, refinement, and to the consumer is just so vastly more intense than mining, refining, manufacturing, and adding to a car once- swapping them maybe in 10 years. Plus no tailpipe emissions. etc. etc.
Yep. just had to nod and pretend like he isn't stupid
I wish it would have been one of my peers who I could have more freely discussed the finer points without risking an awkward animosity from a leader in my group.
I've been surprised to have so many conversations similar to this with friends and family since owning an EV. They just don't care to actually do the research themselves around range or environmental impact.
I wondered if people had similar irrational objections when automobiles were first commercialized and it turns out this totally happened then! Apparently there were common concerns around things like not having proper road infrastructure for automobiles or enough fuel stations to make them practical. Many people believed automobiles would never take off for these reasons despite their obvious superiority to other transportation. Imagine trying to tell someone a horse and carriage is a better vehicle than a car lol.
When one technology is clearly better (to those of us who think rationally), the accommodations for it will be built in time. Then the rest will follow.
I think it's cool that we get to live through the biggest personal transportation revolution since carriage vs automobile. Fortunately, we're on the right side of history.
EV are so politicized in North America it isn't even funny. No wonder other parts of world are running away with new and better EVs + infrastructure really, really fast.
If someone was authentically concerned for the environment in any meaningful way, they wouldn't be on a cruise ship, so that argument is clearly a non-starter.
When that happens at work (I head up the Sales side of a dealership's EV department) and I get a real "truck bro", I appeal to the often-selfish nature of people that think this way.
"Well, *somebody's* gotta keep the oil companies rich. I'm just happy that it's not me."
Stupid is as stupid does. I was at a neighborhood party and one of my neighbors works for a company that makes backup generators. I asked him "hey do you guys make backup batteries?" and he went into a 10 minute rant about climate change being a scam and the batteries being to heavy etc. It felt more like a cry for help than anything substantive. I smiled, let him finish and changed the subject when he was done. He looked a little embarrassed when he was finished.
You're not gonna change anyone's mind in a 10 minute conversation. Most people have to feel like they arrived at a new idea on their own. Just smile and continue on your day. The economics of EVs and clean energy alone will get them over the hump. I post on a car forum and a lot of enthusiasts are grabbing EVs as daily drivers. For people who can charge at home and do mostly local driving it's a no brainer.
Most people are idiots. Especially when it comes to swallowing the propaganda parroted by special interests and the oil lobby.
I’ve debunked every myth and generally it takes less than 5 minutes to determine most people are simply ignorant, uninformed or… willfully ignorant.
It’s analogous to playing Whack-a-Mole.
I'm in the northeast, in the densely populated/civilized portion, and it's crazy how different my experience is. Had a guy strike up a conversation in the grocery parking lot the other day and he had a lot of the same concerns: range, charger availability, battery efficiency in the cold. Except that when I pointed out that I had just recently done a road trip from NYC to Bar Harbor in March and had no issues he got excited and decided he was going to go to the BMW dealership that day to look at the i4.
I live in Wisconsin. Up until the last year we only had three Tesla chargers in the entire state. The infrastructure is not here to stop and charge like it is in many states. Even though EVs would work for many it can be a real inconvenience in this state if having to charge away from home.
The last three major road trips I’ve taken within the state/ traveling to bordering states I reviewed charging routes. They all required me to drive 200 miles out of the way or stay at a hotel with a charger.
It is rare to ever even see an electric public charger to the point people don’t even think they exist. I get people’s hesitancy that live here.
Considering the carbon footprint of cruise ships it’s not exactly your target audience. I’ll talk to anyone about it though, I’m tired of the false information. I’m also glad to just laugh at them when I pay basically nothing in ‘gas.’
I took my boomer dad on an out of state EV road trip to catch a Major League Baseball game back in 2021. I didn’t talk about the car or make a thing of it being an electric road trip at all. I just treated it like we were doing a normal thing and let him experience it.
He’s still caught up in all kinds of misinformation, but I’ve personally witnessed him be the one to interrupt EV bullshit among friends and family. Once he had experienced it, he realized the FUD was overblown.
I think similar first-hand experience is what will bring all but the most misinformed around to reality.
Just tell them China thanks them for hamstring legacy North American manufacturers from being serious EV contenders and be on your way. This whole EVs are bad thing was started some 30 years back, when North American manufacturers could have cornered the materials market, but decided to go the protectionist way instead (which history has shown us time and time again, is a dead end). Automotive manufacturing is just another thing that will be sent to China in short order because of short sighted behaviour.
I use these conversations as practice. I try different ways to not convince, but to find common ground. It’s a good way for me to learn how to speak with people with opposite opinions.
I love the “I don’t like it here” people. I live in Illinois and encounter them everyday. My response is always “that’s an easy fix, just move.” And when they say something along the lines of I don’t want to. I just say that they just want to bitch about something and move on
Shorter cruises = younger crowds.
Anything about a week or longer is usually old farts stuck in their ways and shitty bland food because that's all those people can tolerate.
LPT: ask for the Indian menu on a cruise. There are usually a lot of south Asians on board and they have all the good spicy stuff.
Anti EV points haters use:
* EV's have to charge for 8 hours.
* EV's have short ranges.
* Batteries are made from slave/child labor.
* Batteries pollute water supplies and are bad for the environment.
* EV's only last ten years, then we're stuck with all that waste.
* Building EV's make more CO2 than ICE's.
I think I got 'em all.
* First point is easily rebutted.
* Second point is valid, but diminishingly so, and easily rebutted.
* Third point is true of conflict minerals, specifically cobalt. However, cobalt is usually mined from nickel and copper mines already in existence. Also, cobalt is used in tools, heavy construction equipment parts, alloys used in aircraft and car engines, catalytic converters, oil refining, nuclear medicine, dentistry, and electroplating. Finally - it's used in Li-Ion batteries in vehicles and electronics. So, calling out EV's is hypocritical.
* Fourth point that battery production causes pollution is valid, but can be overcome with existing technologies and largely is. Cost saving and ducking pollution laws is usually the cause of pollution in the US. Also noteworthy is that oil production far, far out-pollutes battery production in land, water, and air pollution.
* Fifth point is easily refuted as a bald faced lie and there are plenty of Nissan Leafs, Model S's, and soon there will be aging Model 3's passing this point in the next couple years or so. Li-Ion batteries are also greater than 90% recyclable, unlike fossil fuels, which are 0%.
* Final point is that it's true more CO2 is used to produce EV's initially, but it's made up for usually in the first 1 -3 years depending on where you get your power. In California, more than 60% of that power comes from solar, wind, and large hydro, which means the CO2 break-even with only 1 - 2 years on the road.
A better approach is to ask people how they know what they know. Check out street epistemology. It’s the best way to get someone to change their mind…by debating themselves. It still is rare to change a mind but it works way better than outright debate.
I live in the South, so I get this a lot. I always engaged them politely. I've had these discussions so many times that I can expect what their arguments will be and answer them. The one that does seem to resonate with most people is the gas savings. Some of the more interesting things I've heard: "EVs can't be used for a road trip! You'll run out of battery" I pointed out that I just got back from a 2500 mile road trip. I was accused of renting an ICE and hiding my car to convince people EVs can do road trips. I laughed a lot at that one. That neighbor doesn't talk to me anymore. "EVs can't work in the cold!" I point out that I drove a Model 3 in Buffalo for 3 years. With a 100 mile/day commute. I'm usually accused of lying. "What are you going to do if the power goes out?" As if gas pumps run on magic and not electricity. I also point out that I could use my generator to charge my car if need be and still be more efficient than their gas car. "EV heaters can't heat the car in cold like this (-20 F, was in Syracuse NY at the time)" This was my favorite because I had my Tesla preheating next to me. I offered to let him get it to see how warm it was compared to his F-150 after a couple minutes, but he refused. Didn't change his mind, just refused to acknowledge the evidence literally in front of him.
> "What are you going to do if the power goes out?" Some EVs can keep your fridge running if the power goes out.
Exactly! My EV is an *asset* when the electricity goes off; not a liability. I run an inverter and some extension cords from the car to keep the refrigerator, some lights, and the electronics energized.
I don't yet own an EV, I expect my next car to be an EV. I'm hoping V2H is far more of a 'standard' feature by the time my ICE car finally breaks down. I'm honestly a bit frustrated by how slow the V2H/V2G standards are being adopted/created.
Just an FYI, there an extra step with V2H that you have to disconnect your house from the grid in an emergency or else you might kill a line worker. If you want "instant" backup then you'll need to install special hardware to automatically do that. Not trying to mansplain it anything, just that it's a common aspect I found myself and others forgetting. Usually we'd want a dedicated sub-panel with the EV and emergency circuits on them to make managing all of it easier, lest someone in the house turn on a sound system and drain your EV battery quick.
> Just an FYI, there an extra step with V2H that you have to disconnect your house from the grid in an emergency or else you might kill a line worker. Yup, the same exact kind of transfer switch/subpanel arrangement one uses for a generator. I'm FAR more interested in V2H then V2G, the later seems like an anti feature to me.
No, lineworkers treat lines as live even when they’re not. The real reason is that your equip can’t power the neighbourhood, and will trip from too much power being requested if you don’t have an inverter or ats switch in front of it stopping it from feeding onward to the upstream supply
I'm guessing it would still be more safe not to have them active. But your second reason is the practical reason.
Being able to recharge from anywhere with electricity vs having to refuel with fresh carefully refined gasoline is quite an advantage
I saw a guy on a "prepper" podcast make electricity from firewood.
You can use about anything to turn a generator. A few solar panels and some patience would get you far a well. I've seen some e bike trailer rigs with just about unlimited range.
Great idea. I’m going to have to check out my inverter situation. I have a generator and a house hookup but the inverter idea has some great potential with my MachE. Thanks.
The DC/DC converter in my Volt can produce about 2,000 Watts to the 12 VDC battery. Thus, I can run a 1,500 Watt inverter. I turn off all the accessories, of course.
You my friend are a Real Men of Genius. Love this idea
Thank you for the kind words, but I "crowd-sourced" the idea from another EV forum. It helps when we all experiment and share our results of what works and what doesn't. I have a 1,000 Watt pure sine inverter. That is plenty of continuous power for my needs, but it struggles to start my refrigerator. If I had it to do again, I would get a 1,500 Watt or 2,000 Watt inverter to get a higher momentary overload rating.
That is my favorite argument! I can fuel my ev from the grid, but also gasoline, diesel, wind, solar, natural gas, or propane. It's a perfect prepper vehicle! (I have an rv with solar panels and a dual mode generator (gas/propane). The rest are just options I don't own.) How is a gas vehicle better again when the power goes out. Haven't had anyone try to argue after that.
Gas is only maybe better if it’s an outage you can see coming, like a hurricane, so you fill up a bunch of gas cans to hoard.
But you can do the same if you own a gas generator.
I like the term "energy choice" for this reason.
It’s like, if your power goes out, so what? Most people keep their cars charged to at least 50-80% on a nightly basis. Then people are like, well what if the power is out for a week? Then I’d have to ask: if conditions are so bad your power is out for a week, why would you be going anywhere? If it’s a temporary outage, you can probably drive 15-30 minutes to the neighboring town that has power and find a DCFC station. I’ve just never understood how people can argue in such bad faith with zero interest in learning real facts.
"I have solar and make my own power. Can you make your own gas at home?"
Also last I checked gas pumps also don’t work in an power outage
They do if you power them using an EV
Some gas station owner going to power his pumps with his F150 lightning for a hurricane lol. That's some irony.
They used to have manual cranks but the modern ones don't anymore and you couldn't pay anyway.
Yep even if the pumps could operate manually there’s no way to process payment
I have a golf cart with a residential solar panel for a roof and an inverter. The last time a lengthy power outage hit, that golf cart + panel kept our refrigerator and bar fridge going for over 15 hours during daylight with <10% total battery drain thanks to the panel. Neighbors' generators were running out of gas after less than 8 hours and the gas stations had no power and were therefore closed. The cart kept things going at night another time during a storm for 13 hours.
I wish solar panels where a realistic option for me. I'd have to kill several 80 to 90 year old trees to make it realistic, in doing so I'd raise my AC costs dramatically & destroy a large chunk of my soul.
Wow, yeah, I wouldn't chop them down either. Solar isn't for everywhere.
Can you do a small helical wind turbine? Some of them are only 5 feet tall.
That’s the best evidence. “Oh really, is that so?That hasn’t been my experience, does your EV do that?” It’s easy to get “facts” from your own echo chamber. It’s hard to counter real facts from the person driving one though. In the end, I suggest that perhaps saving money isn’t for them.
*Exactly!* It costs me less than $4 to "fill the tank." But, I never have to fill it from empty because I top it off every night.
Yep. The charging overnight shuts down a lot of waiting arguments vs gas stations. I don’t try to change anybody’s mind. Sometimes it simply “yep, an EV might not work for you.” I’m not a salesperson. I don’t care if you get one or not. For us, it was ideal. We should have had one 5 years ago, but selection wasn’t great and money was tight. We bought ours 8 months ago and it’s worked out perfect for us. Over the winter charging infrastructure grew an extreme amount. It’s still not enough for mass adoption, but we no longer worry about having to wait our turn at the only charger on a trip.
I imagine for most of the pig headed ones it's way better to just leave them with having had a pleasant conversation with some guy who actually likes his electric car.
How long does it take to charge? About 30 seconds as far as I can tell. That's how long it takes me to plug in at the end of the day and unplug when I wake up in the morning. Or, if I'm at an DC fast charge station at Walmart, the answer is "I don't know it will be done before I'm done shopping."
> Or, if I'm at an DC fast charge station at Walmart, the answer is "I don't know it will be done before I'm done shopping." From today's trip 40 to 86% while peeing and grabbing breakfast at the rest stop, on the way back 50 to 76% while peeing and changing a diaper. Free EA so also a thing
> I'm usually accused of lying. Projection. They lie, so they think you'd do the same. It has nothing to do with you. It's generally fine to avoid people that upon meeting them, would accuse you of being a liar. I've never met a person I got along well with, that would verbally accuse someone right off the bat. It shows a lack of maturity. A trick in life is quickly identifying idiots and quickly avoid them. I use this a lot on Reddit.
> "EVs can't work in the cold!" This is a fun one because Norway, one of the coldest countries in the world, has the highest EV adoption rate with over 90% of new vehicle sales being electric. Do people think they just don't drive for six months out of the year? And sodium ion batteries are now just starting to hit the market, and they should be damn near impervious to the cold. "What are you going to do if the power goes out?" This one always amuses me too. I've 51 years old and have never had a power outage more than a handful of hours. So I'd wait for the power to come back on and finish charging. If the power at my house was out for an extended period of time, I'd go to a public charger. If the power was out in the entire city I'm not sure where I'm driving so much that range would be a problem. And, if I lived some place extended power outages were likely to happen, I'd have a backup generator. It's like people think when the power goes out your EV just magically stops working.
When we had no power during that bad ice storm in Texas a few years ago, we practically lived in my EV in our garage for a couple of days.
“You calling me a liar?“ That shuts people up
Well I'm not calling you a truther! /s
I saw a town have a total blackout in the middle of bum fuck PA and I was sitting in my Tesla at a supercharger annoyed while watching dozens of cars pull up the gas station across the street pull up and leave without being able to get gas lmao
What do you tell people when they say that superchargers (and by extension the generator like you mentioned) run on gas? I’ve heard that talking point a few times and assume those people are approaching the argument from the green energy angle.
That's an interesting one, and one situation it helps to have a polite conversation rather than an argument. The "right" answer is that 1) the chargers aren't run 100% on fossil fuel like ICE cars, and 2) power generations are more efficient than gas or diesel engines, especially at grid scale. But that won't work on some people just because they'y been hearing the opposite on Fox News for years. Another way I approach it for more extreme people is to say that I get to drive a fast BMW without having to worry about the gas prices. It's fun to drive. The environmental benefits are a nice bonus, but not why I bought the car. A quick ride will often show them. As an example, I have a friend who got a special edition Challenger Scat Pack. The cars were about the same money with similar acceleration. His sounds amazing, but I can get that power without crying at the gas station later.
Oh it’s all been polite conversation and not actually a verbal argument. I’ve usually gotten out of the conversation about it by saying I bought my Model 3 not because of the environment, but simply because I wanted an EV. I’ve also heard the argument that a city grid couldn’t handle an entire city of EVs and I kinda just laughed at that one. I’m not sure if Fox News pushed that or what, but that’s an interesting one to me.
I always use the speed and acceleration as that’s hard to argue against. It works really well with people that own or like performance vehicles. The truck crowd gets the “I have never had any need or desire to own a truck.” For the rest of them I just tell them “if you aren’t paying my car note…” or something like that”you do you…buy what you want”
I was driving from Austin to Abilene last summer and my dad warned me to be careful because, "batteries don't like heat." I had him on Bluetooth and my eyes instinctively rolled so hard that I almost crashed.
I live in northern Wisconsin and one of my favorite features is how quickly they heat up and I have a garage so it's warm toasty and ready to go even when it's absolutely freezing out. Certainly uses more battery but it's so much better than my ICE in the winter for general use commuting.
My response to a recent critic: “Are you thinking about buying an EV?” “No! Never!” “Oh, so you’re kinda like a vegan showing up at a Barbeque.” They don’t like that comparison.
Well your neighbor sucks. When I lived in California my neighbor across the street once shouted at me asking how I'd charge my Tesla up in the zombie apocalypse and laughed. We had the most ridiculous yet totally serious conversation as he realized he didn't think that through and an electric vehicle is actually the perfect zombie apocalypse vehicle. We discussed how unlike in shows and movies, gasoline would be gone from stations within a fucking day. Hoarded supplies mostly gone within weeks. For the ones able to conserve it, it will degrade anyhow. Meanwhile I had solar panels and powerwalls. I'd be driving daily scavenging like its nobody's business. The whole neighborhood would be depending on me as the only with with EVs and two of them at that. They'll be dependant as hell on the guy 2 houses down as the only other one with solar panels. But he was my buddy and my other car would probably end up parked at his house since we'd be doing a lot more driving a scavenging those days. Long distance driving would probably still be totally doable, just more complicated and slower. While all fossil fuels would be gone quickly, solar panels, hydro dams, and windmills would live on for years. Given the scenario, they'd probably be kept in service long long long past their official lifespan. Given electric vehicles suddenly will become the only viable non-horse-based transportation, a need for an off grid network would arise. People would likely buy/salvage/etc solar panels and create rigged up hotel "charging stations" all along highways with spray painted highway signs pointing out their locations. Every population center would likely have a horse drawn trailer with battery banks to service those who found themselves up shit's creek and needing help before raiders pick their dead car apart. It was the best conversation I'd ever had with an EV skeptic, as being a friendly neighbor and not a piece of shit, he actually started coming up with half of that himself after the initial "yea, you're right, gas would be fucking GONE" realization. A fun conversation too obviously lol.
I had some ask me about what happens if the power goes out. I answered honestly that the last time power went out I drove across town and charged up while doing my grocery shopping. It cost me $16 and I went home and plugged my fridge into the car until the power came back on. It was great . That made them think.
Hello, fellow EV driving WNYer who moved to the south. My Mach E did great on my move from Roc to OKC with a detour to Philly. I gave myself a little extra time and each charge stop ended up being a nice opportunity to unwind. I even charged to 100% at a park somewhere in the mountains just to spend some extra time on a hiking path.
My Nextdoor app had a long EV bashing thread recently. i tried to think of something to say but thought better of it. I just 'liked' the post of the one person trying to inject facts into the conversation. A politician who I love but was redistricted away from me but is now running for governor posted about a grant for electric school busses. Every comment was crap about how bad EVs are for the environment and how she's getting paid off (she actually keeps trying to pass bills to prevent congress members from trading stock). Anyways i celebrated it and tagged my local EV group on the post - just to show them - but they started arguing with some of the idiots. Its everywhere. But my husband often says, of this kind of thing, that its coming and they are just fighting against the tide. still its so painful.
Good god, an EV discussion on NextDoor is the final boss of Boomer Facebook Uncles
Lmao! Yes, no matter the city. Boomers love their Tesla sightings.
Many of us own and like our Mach e's
Mach E was kinda my dream car, but I couldnt stomach spending that much. Kona for me.
I bought a used 2021 Premium with hail damage and came out pretty good. Replaced the hood and looks like new and seems great so far. I saved several thousand dollars, too. So far very happy man. This was my dream car, too.
I still think my Kona is cute . . tho i had to add 2 cushions to make it comfortable enough to run errands in. So I do wonder if some day I can hand it down to offspring and get something else. The kids are all taller than I am so it shouldn't be as bad for them. but i never even test drove anything else.
My wife prefers her Kona over both the Ford Lightning and Volvo XC40 Recharge, if it helps any. The Kona is a solid car in the crossover segment which is underrated by most, so you've got a great car there!
I would LOVE the Blue Cruise 😁
[Here is a great article about the horse vs automobile controversy at the turn of the century.](https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2017/01/get-horse-americas-skepticism-toward-first-automobiles/) It’s so funny how the same types of supply chain arguments were made against the original vehicles. The article also highlights an automaker who did an 800 mile trek with vehicle skeptics. Excellent article
I love pointing out that every generation has complained about the previous one. Even my husband says "No, but these young people are REALLY worse" [https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/](https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/)
Yep - different discipline but if you go back far enough there are multiple books and articles that opine that ‘recorded music’ won’t ever match the quality and purism of sheet music
I do have to say the modern supply chain for cars would sound impossible if explained to someone at the turn of the century.
Yeah it's not that the doubters aren't raising legitimate problems, it's that they assume they'll never be solved. Buying an electric car makes little economic sense for most people today. They're more expensive than an ICE car and can't go as far or refuel as quickly. But unless we've reached the apex of battery and EV technology (we haven't), that won't always be the case. But yeah it requires a little faith that at least some of the billions of dollars going into battery research and EVs will eventually bear fruit. Cynics survive, but they rarely prosper.
I’m 80, a conservative, long-time car buff and was a BEV skeptic until I drove one. Now I wouldn’t drive anything else given the choice. The things sell themselves unless you just like the noise and smells.
66 here. I don't think cars should be noisy, smelly, and slow.
> My Nextdoor app I'm sorry, but that's on you. You *know* you're going to have a shitty time on NextDoor!
I like keeping track of missing dogs and occasional recommendations for contractors. On the other hand, the drama about the Waffle House going up in this high end suburb . . . . wow
I used to go on ND for contractor and restaurant reviews, but then noticed people recommending really dogshit contractors and restaurants. I realized that some people really either have no idea what they're talking about, or just want to hear themselves talk whether they're right or extremely wrong. Cured me of ND "recommendations" right quick, that's for sure!
Go out into the boonies where there's like 3 restaurants in 20 miles and they're all fast food. The strangest thing, they all think KFC is just peak fine dining.
Ask them how they feel about Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iraq, Qatar, ect. How was the 1970's energy crisis? Do they remember waiting in line for gas? How would they feel if an American company built something in America that eliminated our need to rely on OPEC for energy? Now how would they feel if those OPEC + Russia countries realized this decided to spend a bunch of money spreading lies about these products in an attempt to retain their control - and that this persons direct feelings about EV's are a result of that influence? Mass adoption of EV's is actually a huge benefit for the USA because we no longer need OPEC and need to be politically beholden to them.
Why not just have a nice, light discussion about Gaza?
It’s especially dumb any Nextdoor user would bash on EVs, as they directly improve the air quality on their streets. In contrast, when someone with a gas car has the engine running you can see and smell the pollution. Wanting to breathe clean air should be nonpartisan.
Contrarians. Tell them that Biden has forbidden them from touching a red hot stove top. They'll burn the shit out of themselves just to be damned if sleepy Joe is gonna tell em what to do.
> Nextdoor The place for people too fearful and uptight for even Facebook. I stay away from that cesspool myself.
I got kicked off ND for racism because I kept calling boomers Karens and Chads.
"How dare you attack my culture!" -Far right white person Seriously, that's just funny. Well done!
The whole "paid off by environmental groups" is one of the most annoying arguments I've ever heard. Because between them and the fossil fuel industry, which has more money they throw around? And which has a proven history of paying people to side with them? And yet, I've heard this same argument over and over as if that immediately explains how anything environmentally conscious is actually really bad and we should abandon it.
Now I sound like Mr conspiracy theory, yet I sometimes wonder if the fossil fuel companies don't have trolls in their payroll somewhere.... Or maybe someone out there is waging a very effective disinformation campaign / but surely even they know that all they can do is delay the inevitable for a few more years....
Fleet vehicles make even MORE sense to be all EV! And electric school busses are nigh-on the best possible use case for EVs and nigh-on the worst for diesel. Lots of stop/starts, lots of low speeds, no long distances, etc. That's basically a purpose-built use case for electric!
people are sometimes fearful of major changes to a lifestyle, probably something similar was going around when we transitioned from the horse to the "horseless carriage". People will get used to it just takes time
The big difference today is the enormous power and reach of social media. It's a lot easier to manipulate people, and disinformation today spreads like wildfire. There are concerted campaigns that actively promote falsehoods in order to advance an agenda, and the people most likely to be affected are those who live in an information bubble and never hear alternative viewpoints. I would imagine the typical "cruise demographic" probably falls into that category.
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Agree. We own the first electric car in 6 months. Not long ago we went for, our first the long ride to the seaside in Poland (around 500km one way). Normally we charge the car 99% at home so we were little, but stressful about how it will be :) I need to admit the first 500km was not easy - Audi's built in EV charging planing navigation mess the trip, and we missed two charging stations 😅 we managed to find another one with just 20km range left 🙂 That was tough lesson about not to rely on technology. It is better to plan the trip before - we also switched to ABRP NAVIGATION (much better). The EV charging Infrastructure in Poland is still not great so the first 500km on motorway with high speed was quite stressful (messing with apps and cards) For example my Audi charging card (never used before) was not activated, and the customer support was not speaking in Polish - could be stressful experience for someone. Another time for some reason, Audi took us to the Tesla charging station, which is not compatible lol. Anyway on our way back we knew what to do and what to expect, so the travel was normal as usual 😉 There is no doubt that EV cars are the future - the technology will get better and better, as well as infrastructure. I'm super excited about it ⚡⚡⚡
Our first 6 months were similar. It’s not the cars fault we needed to learn about changing. We’ve spent $58 on charging to go 16,500kms and about $40 of that was in the first 5000kms. I wanted to make sure I knew how to do it, and that it worked before I really needed it. The next trip you take will be so much less stressful because of the knowledge you gained. I still get anxiety when the car goes below 40%. I’m getting better though. As long as we’ve got enough to get home, I relax.
This is the nature of people. We hate things getting taken away, it's hard coded. I forget what the effect is called. Sometimes we can't see past our lizard brains.
Actually, it did happen. Many people were annoyed at the noise and smell of the first cars, arguing they were an environmental and safety hazard. There was also a bit of jealousy towards those who could afford them. They were right up to a point: horses (in large quantities) were worse, especially with the manure that was pushed daily against the houses and contributed to diseases in cities through proliferation of rats and cockroaches. What is better for the world? A few billion horses, 5 billion individual petrol cars, or one billion autonomous interconnected shared EVs?
D) Well run and ubiquitous Public Transit infrastructure
Electrified and zero emissions please.
If you look at the data on the recently-posted https://www.pewresearch.org/data-labs/2024/05/23/electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-in-the-u-s/, more than where you live, or charging infrastructure, or age, what determines if you'd consider an EV is political affiliation. Just waiting isn't going to age people out or let them adjust; we have to remove anti-EV from the talking points of the Republican party if we want opinions to change.
I don’t worry that it won’t happen in the rest of the world but I do worry about the us. The moment things became political, EVs started an uphill climb. When the rest of the world goes electric, we might be just forced to anyway though.
The irony of people who dismiss global warming as a "hoax" suddenly pretending to care about the environmental impact of lithium mining is not lost on me. They are shills for the fossil fuel industry and they lack the courage to admit it.
They think it’s a gotcha even though a 30 second google search will show them EVs are better for the environment
No matter how many times the fossil fuel industry talking points are debunked with facts, they just keep repeating them. In the internet age, they don't even have to argue; they just drown the truth in lies.
The irony of someone who says they care about the environment going on a cruise should also be noted.
On a fucking cruise ship of all places.
My dad is turning 78 this year. He has an Audi etron (Q8). He loves it and has said repeatedly he will never own an ICE vehicle again. We are in Canada, he’s happy never having to go to the gas pump in winter ever again. He’s had it for almost 3 years, loves it. He still has range anxiety even though he had used it on road trips. A few weeks ago we were all at a family dinner and he was saying he’d want his next EV to have 500-600km of range. So, I told him “you have an EV that you need to stop and go pee at least twice before recharging, now you want one that requires a minimum of 4 bathroom breaks between charges?” We all laughed, but I’m right and deep down, he gets it.
Cool dad!
The rest of the world is moving to EV so regardless of the idiots, they’ll lose ICE. I typically just tell conservatives “yeah I didn’t buy this for any environment stuff, it’s my emergency prep for hurricanes because I can power my house from it.” Conservatives love prepping, so I just appeal to that side of them.
That’s the way to do it. All about practicality and money. Their environmental argument gets deflated when you tell them “who cares about the environment? This thing saves me money.” I mean, I care about the environment, but they don’t need to know that. I’m driving for almost free. I generate my own EV fuel.
Yeah I didn't buy my bolt for the environment. I bought it because my wife could charge it at work for free and even if we charged at hime, I'm paying 20 cents per KWh at most. Work out to $13 for about 210 miles. We were spening $100 a week in gas for our ICE vehicles. Now we are down to about $120 a month.
It's amazing how bad people are at basic math and economics. Every time boomers reminisce about how gas was $1/gallon thirty years ago, I love to point out how I'm paying half that for the equivalent mileage in an EV right now, not even adjusting for inflation. And that's when I have to pay anything to charge up at all. Then I reminisce about how disruptive it was to have to take my ICE in for oil changes and emissions testing every few months. So glad I live in modern times without dealing with all that absolute bullshit the chumps put themselves through.
If I cared so much about the environment I wouldn't be on a cruise ship either, or the plane ride to get there
I deliberately brought my mobile solar rig and my instantpot to the town chili cookoff. People started out triggered but I'd explain that I set this up to power my freezers before the (well known recent power incident). They weren't equipped to argue against a garage full of venison.
The answer to anyone claiming batteries are bad for the environment: "All energy has an environmental impact but at least a battery lasts 20 years and is 90% recyclable, unlike burnt oil"
They don't actually care though. It's just a rhetorical stratrgy to undermine the environmental credentials of electrication irrespective of the reality of the situation.
Cruise ships are very bad for the environment, so it tracks.
Believe me, I have more than a little ambivalent about being on one, and this one in particular from some of the greenwashing efforts. I don't think I'll be taking another any time soon.
I don’t blame you for taking one. I have as well. Leisure just like anything else, for everyday people, has limited choices. A lot of folks would never be able to have those experiences without cruises. Does that make it right? I don’t know.
Exactly. Cruising in a mega floating city burning copious amounts of fuel is hardly the eco-friendly place to be talking environmental politics.
The key is, EVs don’t have to be about the environment. I’ve had solar for 12 years. The economics changed on solar and now it’s all about saving money, not saving the environment. EVs will be the same. When I tell people what it cost to drive my car, and that I don’t pay an electricity bill, it deflates any argument pretty quickly. When they bring up that it won’t save the planet, I tell them I don’t care, they’re saving me money. Don’t get me wrong, I’m doing it for environmental reasons too, but I just say that’s a side effect.
You need to use the "prepper" angle! I do. You know every single prepper is a hard core conservative. What is more "prepper" than solar, backup batter and an EV? When the gas pumps go down or the gas supply dwindles, guess whose car is gonna be running still? Yep.. your EV.
If the EV talk makes you uncomfortable, you can always just change the subject and say "As an atheist...." and then you'll have a whole new set of things for them to hurl at you.
Why do you care? When I see that the person I talk to is one of those guys and they ask if I even have enough range to get to work and back, I just say that no I have to stop two times on the way to work taking two hours for each charge and then by the time I get there work is finished so I have to again drive back home. Sometimes I also say that it randomly catches fire so I stop from time to time to put it out. They kinda back off after that
I’ll ask them if they’ve found the gas station that will fill their tank every night while they are asleep. You can almost smell the brain cells burning.
I get comments all the time, always inferring that I'm some leftist nut. I stopped trying to argue, all I say is that ICE cars are too slow for me. This always infuriates people who want to argue. One clown offered to race me and it was embarrassing..
Seeing the look on some dude’s face in a charger when I bolt off the line in a bolt and am 100 feet past the intersection and they are halfway through it is priceless. I only do it when I need to get over a lane though.
I have stopped trying to debate environmentalism. In fact, you can trash 90% of their prepared talking points by starting out with “F%#^ the environment, am I right?” Then I talk only about things I think will appeal to them: 1. Acceleration. 2. Full “tank of gas” every time I leave the house. 3. American made 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸. 4. I’m not sending my money to OPEC (appeal to their racism). 5. The government can ration and tax gasoline but they can’t stop me from charging my car from the sun that lands on my property (speaking to their disdain for government and appeal to property rights). 6. Negligible maintenance (cost and time). 7. In a doomsday situation (Zombie, Rapture, or any other event that makes gas scarce), I’ll still be able to “fuel” my car using wind or solar. Honestly, you have to meet them on their ground.
Drive a F150 lightning and have had EVs since 2015. Go to a “rural/ farm area” coffee shop sometimes before runs or work stuff. Always filled with old timers and usually get lots of comments (some good!) when I open frunk and it’s usually the Fox News greatest hits playlist. Last time I pulled in there was a cyber truck SURROUNDED by boomers 😂. The most uneventful cup of coffee EVER for me haha!
I'm curious did the boomers love or hate the cybertruck? On the one hand, it is a large ugly EV which they would stereotypically hate. On the other hand, it is Musks personal creation, and he gets a lot of love from right wing media nowadays because of his politics. Or were they just fascinated with it in the way any person would be fascinated by a train wreck.
Conservatives who bring up "batteries are bad for the environment" are always funny to me. They want to drill oil everywhere they can and now FINALLLLLY, for the first time in their lives, seem to care about the environment. They're so full of shit.
I just say two words. Deepwater Horizon. Or, Exxon Valdez.
I never discuss EV's with luddites. I just let them drive my EV. Shuts them right up. Most people are not easily convinced by words. It's not true if they can't feel it. They only change their views by experiencing things.
Yeah, my brother -- an amazing dude -- lives in Florida. He's conservative and whenever EV's came up he's pull out all the old talking points. I just got a Rivian and haven't told him. He'll find out when I pick him up from the airport and have him drive home. Pretty sure he'll be impressed by the time we get there.
That’s the way. 👍🏻
This is actually one of the most brilliant things I’ve read on Reddit recently.
It baffles me when people talk about EV’s being bad for the environment. Yes, everything that is manufactured has an impact. Since burning fossil fuels already occurs, let’s completely disregard those impacts, as well as the impacts caused but ICE car manufacturers, but EV’s need to account for every supply chain detail as well as source of every electron stored in the batteries. /s I swear all ICE enthusiasts have Stockholm syndrome.
People seem to have a really hard time estimating the environmental impact of operating gas vehicles. They have a conception that the impact of building a car dwarfs the impact of operating a car, which is just completely wrong and gets wrong-er the longer you use the car I've started working on battery powered devices at work and it's really aided my understanding of the significance of long-term and repeated energy uses. Sure, it uses a lot of energy to build a car, but it's one-and-done. Refueling and driving a car is a much smaller energy use but happens for such a long time that it completely outstrips the initial energy input
“Okay. I don’t really care about your purchase decisions.” Usually works a treat. 👌
Exactly! I just had some old guy tell me last night that EVs batteries are as heavy as shit, comparable to industrial forklifts and they are destroying the roads. There's no way any EV aside from a cyber truck or Hummer weighs more than a F-150. These people have no critical thinking skills and just swallow whatever they hear on Fox News or wherever they get this b******* information.
I sort of had an experience like this in a way. I had Google Glass. People would ask honest questions and generally I would try to engage, be polite and let them give Glass a try. I'd always offer to take a pic of them wearing Glass and send it to them. People were genuinely interested and friendly. It was largely a very positive experience. I was supposed to be a brand ambassador after all. But occasionally... If the person was obnoxious and my patience had worn thing... I became a Glasshole. :) Them: "Are you recording me?" Me: "No... why? Are you about to do something interesting?" Them: "Can you tell my name?" Me: "Only if you are on the sex offender registry... want me to check?" And my favorite... "Can it see through clothes?" Me: "yes."
I never realized how many people are constantly taking road trips until EVs started getting more popular. Seems like everybody I know usually flies out when they go on vacation.
Them: “What will you do if the electricity goes out?” Me: “Well, how will they pump the gas if the electricity goes out?” Them: “They can just use a generator.” Me: “Oh, generators make gas?” Them: “No, generators make electricity to power the gas pumps.” Me: “Sorry, what did you say they make?” 🤔🙃🤯
Their cult leader hates EVs so they hate EVs. Mindless sheep.
You did good, meeting people who drive electric is going to help change people's minds. Yeah, you might not have convinced them (nor should you try to pressure them) but a couple more encounters with people who are happy not paying such high gas prices or who can drive their EVs in cold climates and they might give them another look.
Yeah, OP's title says they made a mistake but it sounds to me like they handled it really well.
One of my co-workers has a Model 3 and my boss got a Lightning and discussing how cheap they are to run has dramatically increased the office's acceptance of EVs. Everyone is interested in them, especially if they have a long commute. My company is already a big supporter of solar so they have some charging stations installed and are looking at putting in more, closer to our building, so a lot of people rarely even have to charge at home
lol I feel like I’m on the same cruise as you because I was wearing a Rivian shirt and a person from Wisconsin began talking shit to me about how impractical they are while we were out at the pool.
it's amazing how effective right wing propoganda is. They all say the same things. It's just a couple of heavily reinforced points that kinda conform to how they think it should work and all of a sudden you've got everyone saying the same thing. It really is a fascinating social experiment.
To be fair people just don’t like change. If when they were born and the only thing was electric vehicles, and something new came out and you could instantly add fuel like a gas station they would fight that also. It’s like when Covid happened and people I know had to work at home and they fought it and hated it. They when we were allowed to go back to work a few years later, must never can back because they found out they liked working from home. At the end a lot of people really hate change of any kind.
If they’re open and willing to listen, educate them. Old people are fed with misinformation everyday so it makes sense that they’re skeptical about EVs. But if they start getting defensive and rude, ignore them.
It’s not better anywhere else, even in most of Europe and it comes down to a number of factors imo. * There is still a strong consumer preference for ICE vehicles. * Gas prices are still not high enough to dissuade most people from buying gas cars. In Europe high gas prices are matched by high electricity prices so savings on fuels are typically only 50-30%. * There aren’t any financial measures to disadvantage buying an ICE car or keeping it on the road. * I think most negative or sensationalist EV talking points have been disproven by rational media and studies. But I think a lot of them still persist in people’s minds and conversations as a means to justify their inherent bias against EVs or rather strong preference for ICE vehicles.
I tried posting in my neighborhood FB group that I had a home charger for sale and wanted to offer it cheap there before posting in Marketplace. The post has been sitting "pending" approval for 10 days now. I suspect the admins are anti- EV.
I gave up cruises as I found out that they are one of the biggest polluters in the world. We have a PHEV & an EV. They aren't the very best for the environment, but they are a good step in the right direction. My rule is to not talk politics, religion, or EVs unless I know my audience.
The most important thing I have ever implemented in my adult life is an abundant use of "You are probably right." I've avoided so many wasteful hours trying to persuade people who simply aren't open to other opinions.
The BEST comeback I have to a hardcore right winger is bringing up "preppers". I'll say "you know... nothing is more 'prepper' than having an EV with solar on your house and a backup battery. When armageddon comes and the gasoline stops flowing I'm still gonna be able to charge my car because I'm not reliant on gas or the grid. My setup is the most 'prepper' thing there is".
These people forget that gas goes bad. You simply cannot hoard millions of gallons of gas. And good luck drilling for oil and making your own gas.
I'm from Wisconsin. Love our EV.
Me too. I've gone on ski trips with my Bolt, and a lot of the hotels in the UP already have L1 outlets on every parking spot because the old ICE cars need to run their block heaters.
Your first mistake was going on a cruise.
Definitely see the sad irony in talking EVs with people who are on a giant gas guzzler in the middle of the sea. I recently saw a video of what cruise ships sound like underwater. It’s the equivalent of living next to the construction of a high rise building. Driving an EV to help the climate then jumping on a cruise ship for vacation is just wild to me.
I found the winning argument. Has worked on 2 separate occasions where I literally saw a shift in their complete demeanor, there's no real comeback. You being from Canada would have to slightly tweak it but it goes something like this: I want America to be a world leader in emerging tech, but China has totally beat us in EVs. Scandinavian countries buy a ton of EVs but outside Tesla they buy Chinese EVs because there really aren't any US options, and most those Teslas are made in China with Chinese batteries anyway. It's happening in Australia as well. If we want to beat China, we've gotta get US EVs exported to the world...but we've gotta build them first.
I will talk EVs, but I don’t try to change minds. I’ll admit that my situation is different than most around me because I produce my own electricity. Have been for 12 years. I usually hit them with the fact we’ve driven 16,500kms and it’s cost us $58 in charging so far. I also throw in we haven’t paid an electrical bill in 5 years either. If somebody wants to believe “facts” they got from internet, I just say that hasn’t been my experience, or nod and suggest that perhaps EVs aren’t for them then. When they bring up charging times, I say I don’t know, I charge in my garage while I sleep. I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind.
Seeing as I am, er, of a certain age, and love to cruise, I would be in that demographic. But, I know what you mean. We love both the electrics we have owned for different reasons. As for talking to others about EVs: coming from a very red state in the US, I get treated like an idiot. I just chalk it up to their ignorance and move on. On the subject of taking breaks on a trip, I know several people that like to drive 12+ hours at a go, stopping maybe once for 15 min for gas and bodily functions. I'm too old for that, LOL. Some even keep a bottle in the car for when they don't want to stop ... ick.
Cruise ships are floating environmental disasters. The demographic using them will lean stupid.
My dad ripped me over getting solar going on a rant about how the panels are awful for the environment. I let him say his little piece, eventually mom asked how much it reduced my power bill. When I showed them he shut up real quick. People like you mentioned know the truth about EVs being a better choice. They choose to believe their lies. Thats okay, just let them be in their own world of lying to themselves.
I have an EV (Chevy bolt). I wouldn’t dismiss the road trip one - road trips are way more of a pain with an EV and it’s okay to admit that.
My EV, the only vehicle I own, can’t be used for road trip. It’s an electric unicycle that gets 40 miles of range. You know what I do when I want to go on a road trip? rent a car. Costs $40/day. Between principle, interest, insurance, maintenance, repairs, registration, parking—how much do you pay for a car every month? I take less than 1 month’s savings per year to do the entire road trip. People just don’t want to do the math—on more than just cars/EVs.
Obviously their sources of information are in part sponsored but petroleum industry.
Gotta love how some people only care about the environment when it comes to EV batteries lol
Lots of low intelligence people on cruises
When they talk about batteries being bad I say “The environmental impact from one person’s car is pretty minuscule but maybe I’m not as big as an environmentalist as you are” they don’t like being called that. Especially when the only time they care is when it helps bring antiEV
I've had a few of these conversations. It's funniest when it's at a mutual friend's and they know I have one but I drove a different vehicle. One of them, they bitched, then asked to drive my '65 Mustang to my house. I said sure, let hime drive. Then we took my EV back to our mutual friend's. He quickly changed his tune about them. Suddenly they were all right, he loves the acceleration, and wishes they worked for his constant traveling job. Weird.
Hard to leverage the environmental benefits of EVs in discussions on cruise ships with fellow “eco-tourist” types. /s
The weirdest part to me is that electric cars are actually BETTER at most everything people like about cars. If most people would actually drive one, they'd be shocked.
I have something of an advantage as someone that is classical conservative leaning but also super pro-solar/EV for the independence/cost/performance/us made reasons more than environmental. I don't mind the environmental benefit but it isn't why I got them either. People seem to take it better from someone on a roughly similar side of the isle even though I make sure to conveniently leave out that I despise Trump.
There are some people who have no clue of the EV charging landscape. “Oh it will take you 8 hours to charge one time on your road trip”.
I miss car small talk with strangers. Used to be something easy to find common ground with people, but now it feels like I’m walking on eggshells :(
Money talks. Keep it to that and you can convert many. I tell people that I pay less than 4 cents per mile, which bests the most efficient hybrid vehicle by more than 2x. From there, if they wander into the bogus argument about batteries degrading, you know it's really just not worth the time since they obviously haven't done and won't do any of the math.
Don’t worry, history keeps repeating itself, I’m sure when gas cars first came about, all the horse carriage riders were like “that’s crazy! Where are we going to get gas, what you need to build gas stations? My horses just eat grass!”. We are going to get the same thing when more hydrogen cars come about, and we are going to get the same again when nuclear fission cars come about.
I drive an EV because I don’t like supporting OPEC/the Middle East with gas purchases. Not an argument many use to connect with conservatives, but it should be.
This was an interesting thread… my two cents on the charging infrastructure and how I respond is by saying “this is the worst it will be, each year there will be more and more places to charge”.
I usually sell the idea as an option for everyone. Like free choice. EVs aren't for everyone, but they are great options for many. And most of the bad press on them is dishonest at best. Instead I try to rephrase the concept as a free market option that is pro-capitalism and any attempt to prevent them from having equal opportunities in the market is just anti capitalist and even boarding on communism. After that I usually get an opening to talk about how range fill ups don't really work the same way as gas cars. You don't have to charge your phone to 100% to get hours of use out of them. Since charging to 80% is much faster than that last 20%, most drivers just don't do that on long trips. I point out that everyone I have talked to with a Tesla feels like they don't really spend any more time at a charging station than they did at the pump with an ICE vehicle. I also point out that I drive trains. They burn diesel to turn a generator that powers electric traction motors. They are literally EVs! Because electric motors are the most efficient way of moving things around. Then I remind them that EVs aren't for everyone, and that's ok. Because consumer choice is king in this country. And for good reason. I don't really want my paycheck getting absorbed by oil subsidies. Businesses should stand on their own feet and not rely on politicians to bail them out for making bad products or charging way too much for gas.
Thanks for posting this. It immediately reminded me of a similar thing 2 weeks ago when I attended my company's client conference. I was working my group's booth with a Sr. Director in my group who is from ATL and leads an East Coast-based team. I'm an IC and from SoCal but got an MBA focused on Corporate Sustainability a decade ago. I had to bite my lip so hard and not take the bait when somehow our friendly banter and work and life during some downtime got on the EV track. I guess I live in a bubble because I was completely dumbfounded that this guy started talking all about how mining for lithium for the batteries is just so absolutely awful for the environment and EVs are clearly bad cars for the environment. I've read these arguments before online, but usually someone chimes in to point out the very obvious constant degradation of the environment at ever step from extraction, transportation, refinement, and to the consumer is just so vastly more intense than mining, refining, manufacturing, and adding to a car once- swapping them maybe in 10 years. Plus no tailpipe emissions. etc. etc. Yep. just had to nod and pretend like he isn't stupid I wish it would have been one of my peers who I could have more freely discussed the finer points without risking an awkward animosity from a leader in my group.
I've been surprised to have so many conversations similar to this with friends and family since owning an EV. They just don't care to actually do the research themselves around range or environmental impact. I wondered if people had similar irrational objections when automobiles were first commercialized and it turns out this totally happened then! Apparently there were common concerns around things like not having proper road infrastructure for automobiles or enough fuel stations to make them practical. Many people believed automobiles would never take off for these reasons despite their obvious superiority to other transportation. Imagine trying to tell someone a horse and carriage is a better vehicle than a car lol. When one technology is clearly better (to those of us who think rationally), the accommodations for it will be built in time. Then the rest will follow. I think it's cool that we get to live through the biggest personal transportation revolution since carriage vs automobile. Fortunately, we're on the right side of history.
EV are so politicized in North America it isn't even funny. No wonder other parts of world are running away with new and better EVs + infrastructure really, really fast.
Falling behind on trains and falling behind on cars. And perhaps on planes too, with Boeings falling apart nowadays
Sometimes I like to go OMG you are right.... You have totally convinced me! Then just stop talking
talking EVs on a cruise ship 😂
If someone was authentically concerned for the environment in any meaningful way, they wouldn't be on a cruise ship, so that argument is clearly a non-starter.
When that happens at work (I head up the Sales side of a dealership's EV department) and I get a real "truck bro", I appeal to the often-selfish nature of people that think this way. "Well, *somebody's* gotta keep the oil companies rich. I'm just happy that it's not me."
Hating EVs is an identity signifier in the US. To be fair, loving EVs also kind of is.
Stupid is as stupid does. I was at a neighborhood party and one of my neighbors works for a company that makes backup generators. I asked him "hey do you guys make backup batteries?" and he went into a 10 minute rant about climate change being a scam and the batteries being to heavy etc. It felt more like a cry for help than anything substantive. I smiled, let him finish and changed the subject when he was done. He looked a little embarrassed when he was finished. You're not gonna change anyone's mind in a 10 minute conversation. Most people have to feel like they arrived at a new idea on their own. Just smile and continue on your day. The economics of EVs and clean energy alone will get them over the hump. I post on a car forum and a lot of enthusiasts are grabbing EVs as daily drivers. For people who can charge at home and do mostly local driving it's a no brainer.
Most people are idiots. Especially when it comes to swallowing the propaganda parroted by special interests and the oil lobby. I’ve debunked every myth and generally it takes less than 5 minutes to determine most people are simply ignorant, uninformed or… willfully ignorant. It’s analogous to playing Whack-a-Mole.
I'm in the northeast, in the densely populated/civilized portion, and it's crazy how different my experience is. Had a guy strike up a conversation in the grocery parking lot the other day and he had a lot of the same concerns: range, charger availability, battery efficiency in the cold. Except that when I pointed out that I had just recently done a road trip from NYC to Bar Harbor in March and had no issues he got excited and decided he was going to go to the BMW dealership that day to look at the i4.
I live in Wisconsin. Up until the last year we only had three Tesla chargers in the entire state. The infrastructure is not here to stop and charge like it is in many states. Even though EVs would work for many it can be a real inconvenience in this state if having to charge away from home. The last three major road trips I’ve taken within the state/ traveling to bordering states I reviewed charging routes. They all required me to drive 200 miles out of the way or stay at a hotel with a charger. It is rare to ever even see an electric public charger to the point people don’t even think they exist. I get people’s hesitancy that live here.
Considering the carbon footprint of cruise ships it’s not exactly your target audience. I’ll talk to anyone about it though, I’m tired of the false information. I’m also glad to just laugh at them when I pay basically nothing in ‘gas.’
Yeah, the level to which EVs have become political is downright asinine.
I took my boomer dad on an out of state EV road trip to catch a Major League Baseball game back in 2021. I didn’t talk about the car or make a thing of it being an electric road trip at all. I just treated it like we were doing a normal thing and let him experience it. He’s still caught up in all kinds of misinformation, but I’ve personally witnessed him be the one to interrupt EV bullshit among friends and family. Once he had experienced it, he realized the FUD was overblown. I think similar first-hand experience is what will bring all but the most misinformed around to reality.
Just tell them China thanks them for hamstring legacy North American manufacturers from being serious EV contenders and be on your way. This whole EVs are bad thing was started some 30 years back, when North American manufacturers could have cornered the materials market, but decided to go the protectionist way instead (which history has shown us time and time again, is a dead end). Automotive manufacturing is just another thing that will be sent to China in short order because of short sighted behaviour.
I use these conversations as practice. I try different ways to not convince, but to find common ground. It’s a good way for me to learn how to speak with people with opposite opinions.
"The gas prices are too damn high" followed by "electric? Ewwww" is my favorite. I have plenty of relatives who spout that one.
I love the “I don’t like it here” people. I live in Illinois and encounter them everyday. My response is always “that’s an easy fix, just move.” And when they say something along the lines of I don’t want to. I just say that they just want to bitch about something and move on
Shorter cruises = younger crowds. Anything about a week or longer is usually old farts stuck in their ways and shitty bland food because that's all those people can tolerate. LPT: ask for the Indian menu on a cruise. There are usually a lot of south Asians on board and they have all the good spicy stuff.
I am sure many horse-driving people did the same when cars started to become a thing! How many are now using horses?
Anti EV points haters use: * EV's have to charge for 8 hours. * EV's have short ranges. * Batteries are made from slave/child labor. * Batteries pollute water supplies and are bad for the environment. * EV's only last ten years, then we're stuck with all that waste. * Building EV's make more CO2 than ICE's. I think I got 'em all. * First point is easily rebutted. * Second point is valid, but diminishingly so, and easily rebutted. * Third point is true of conflict minerals, specifically cobalt. However, cobalt is usually mined from nickel and copper mines already in existence. Also, cobalt is used in tools, heavy construction equipment parts, alloys used in aircraft and car engines, catalytic converters, oil refining, nuclear medicine, dentistry, and electroplating. Finally - it's used in Li-Ion batteries in vehicles and electronics. So, calling out EV's is hypocritical. * Fourth point that battery production causes pollution is valid, but can be overcome with existing technologies and largely is. Cost saving and ducking pollution laws is usually the cause of pollution in the US. Also noteworthy is that oil production far, far out-pollutes battery production in land, water, and air pollution. * Fifth point is easily refuted as a bald faced lie and there are plenty of Nissan Leafs, Model S's, and soon there will be aging Model 3's passing this point in the next couple years or so. Li-Ion batteries are also greater than 90% recyclable, unlike fossil fuels, which are 0%. * Final point is that it's true more CO2 is used to produce EV's initially, but it's made up for usually in the first 1 -3 years depending on where you get your power. In California, more than 60% of that power comes from solar, wind, and large hydro, which means the CO2 break-even with only 1 - 2 years on the road.
A better approach is to ask people how they know what they know. Check out street epistemology. It’s the best way to get someone to change their mind…by debating themselves. It still is rare to change a mind but it works way better than outright debate.
You should’ve asked them chuds what they think of 15 minute cities.