The association of sodomy and homosexuality is more of a modern thing than it is really traditional. Sodomy used to be considered any sexual act of gratification that would not result in pregnancy, like oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, sex with somebody that had any kind of "contraceptive", or any kind of like fetish play like BDSM would be considered sodomy under the more traditional term. And since pretty much any homosexual act cannot result in pregnancy it's associated with sodomy because everything they do with gay sex would technically be sodomy. It's a shitty association but it's there.
I'm so glad I woke up from this. Was deep in the hole of purity culture (pun intended) and it made any form of sexual feelings full of guilt and shame.Â
Sadly, my ex is shackled by Christianity and it turned out to be even worse.Â
She told me that she wouldn't even date anymore. Just marry. Probably a shit head who needs a submissive wife.Â
Sorry for the harsh words. Just found out today that she got deeper into denying reality.
Yeah, and the christians tend to conveniently forget that during the time the books of the Bible were being written, Roman & Greek homosexuality was very common and preferred as you mentioned as to being safe from reproduction. The soldiers would regularly fuck one another for companionship.
And then when you taking the fact that the story of Sodom and gamora is about hospitality and being kind to strangers it makes sense that you would want them burn from the earth when you're talking about a very isolated tribal group which is the original part of the Bible was a very tribalistic part would probably not want to go anywhere near there and would say that they are gone once it wiped off the plant.
Yes, precisely. When the Bible is taken in context of the times and culture it was written, itâs actually not a bad read. However, I would not suggest basing your life & morality on itâŚit has not been relevant since about 50 or so years after it was written.
I would say depending on the segments it could actually be applied even farther back cuz even like in the 1950s you didn't mix dairy with fish because early pasteurization of dairy wasn't nearly as thorough and you could end up being sick that's where a lot of like mixing dairy with meat was bad because you would get bacterial growth. And we look at things like where people of the Hebrew ethnicity they have a higher chance of having a shellfish allergy which means shellfish is unclean should be a prohibited food, same thing for pork early pork cooking was kind of risky and hard cuz if you didn't do it right you didn't cook it enough or preserve it enough you would get trichinosis. I'm not saying all of it's great not even their reasoning is great but it kind of makes sense when you look at those contexts.
It's implied in Genesis the residents of Sodom were intent on gang raping the angels. Which admittedly is pretty inhospitable and would not make you popular amongst your neighbors.
Ezekiel, OTOH, says thier sin was not caring for the less fortunate and needy. Which is shitty but not gang rape levels shitty.
It's a weird and disturbing story.
It's also interesting that, like the Eden story, Ezekiel seems to know a different version of it then the one in Genesis. Ezekiel's take on Sodom's sin is thus.
Ezekiel 16 ^(48) As I live, says the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. ^(49) This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease but did not aid the poor and needy. ^(50) They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.Â
Ezekiel doesn't allude to gang rape or homosexual behavior. He seems to think their big sins were being greedy assholes who don't help the poor.
>. He seems to think their big sins were being greedy assholes who don't help the poor.
Ah yes, I think here in the States, we call that being "A God-fearing Christian," but I call them evil fucking demons bent on selfishly destroying this beautiful world for their own gain all the while believing they're so self-righteous.
If I wasn't a pacifist, I'd take their money and shove it so far down their throats until they only ever shit out pennies.
Jesus fucking Christ greed makes me intensely angry.
I was gonna make a crack about Ezekiel would be very pissed at a lot of those people but held off for whatever reason. Granted, Ezekiel was pissed about a lot of stuff(the entire book is him being pissed at stuff) but on this particular point I just happen to agree with him that greedy assholes who spit on the less fortunate deserve scorn.
It's the hospitable thing to do after all.
You don't want to leave a sour taste in your guests mouth with rape or they'll think you're a bad host and all your future dinner party's will be a bust.
"Fun" fact: In the Bible after they flee the city, Lots daughters rape him so they could bare children because he was the only available option from their "tribe"/people.
A lot of people like to ignore this part of the story.
Oh some Evangelicals do, that dumbs umbrella picture/meme makes its rounds frequently in those groups. I have family that are Southern Baptist and post that on occasion.
Note that no gay sex occurs in the Sodom narrative. No men kiss. No men hug. No men hold hands. There's no hint at all any guy even has a boyfriend.
The righteous Lot, however, gets drunk and fucks both of his daughters after Yahweh murders their mom. Again, there's zero gay sex in this story, but lots of drunken daddy-daughter baby-making, with Yahweh conveniently murdering the wife and mother who might have objected to this horrifying family orgy.
Iâve also heard the excuse that Sodom had a rape culture to justify the destruction (essentially, itâs not that theyâre gay, itâs that theyâre gay rapists) which is super infuriating to hear because itâs straight up bold faced lies coming from the mouths of actual homophobic, rape apologists
The Bible does indeed blame the daughters for getting their dad drunk and having sex with him--multiple times.
This comes off as victim blaming, because there are no reported cases of two sisters gang raping their drunk dad with the express goal of giving birth to their own brothers.
Later on in the bible, [Jude 1:7](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%207&version=NIV) states that Sodom & Gomorrah 'gave themselves up sexual immorality and perversion.'
Whatever that means though.
Because first of all, each religion, high control group, or cult cherry picks which scriptures they're even going to follow to begin with. Secondly, the all-male leadership of each group chooses and designs their own interpretation of scriptures. They typically decide on an interpretation that supports the already established policies and rules within the group. So for example, a high control group like the Jehovah's Witnesses hates the LGBTQ+ community. So their leadership creates "lessons" from bible stories that support their cult policies against this group. They in essence create their own context from each bible story, under the guise of possessing the only real "truth" about scripture.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is so similar to Ovid's metamorphoses that its almost certain either one copied the other or they came from the same original story
https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2015/05/09/crime-and-punishment-in-sodom-and-gomorrah/
It's worse than that. The story is really a form of storytelling to define the origin of the Moabites and Amorites. It's a story told by 8th century Hebrews to describe the ancient origin of two of their enemies. It's pretty much what the Hatfields would come up with to tell the origin of the McCoys. Most of Genesis are bad origin stories and divine justification for land deals that 8th century Hebrews would tell each other to justify whatever they were doing to slowly take over Canaan from other tribes. It's using divine excuses for nefarious claims over land and people. Glad we don't see that type of behavior nowadays (manifest destiny and Christian nationalism, cough cough)
We don't the gender of the angels. They could have been female.
Also, I find it strange that people think that god was more upset about homosexuality than people trying to coerce sex with people.
The scriptures refer to them as âmenâ. The crowd of men demanding they come out to be raped refer to them as such.
I see the argument that itâs not about homosexuality but sexual violence and general debauchery. But that Lot is called righteous despite offering his daughters up to be gang-raped in lieu of strangers he just met must mean that hospitality is definitely the moral of this story. Hard to see any moral in it though...
Or the next time gang rape is mentioned, I think it was actually the tribe of Benjamin who did the raping?! I could be wrong it's been a long time. Anyway these gang rapers show up at this guys door
And the guy throws his servant woman out there to the wolves
I think it was implied she was in tremendous shock? Or just died. Well she definitely died when the master cut her up into pieces and shipped em out to the other tribes
So then all the other tribes attacked the tribe of Benjamin or something
So very messed up
It's almost like a retcon. In Genesis there's no real clarity, just that they were so sinful they had to be destroyed. To the point that not even 10 people in the whole city were redeemable.
I guess they interpret the lustful mob as sexual degeneracy which they equate with homosexuality.
Honestly it's anyone's guess. It was just a terrible place to be full of awful people. Whatever that means.
And yet gang raping two virgin girls is not considered degeneracy. In fact the father who arranged for his two vurgin daughters to be gang raped was considered to be "righteous" by the christian gods.
Because the Bible is reinterpreted to fit whatever narrative is necessary at the time. Almost all organized religions are built around political movements, and exist to further the goals of those movements.
It is very, very telling thatâs how they interpret it. They really tell on themselves so much. Their homophobia is not based on religious belief - itâs the other way around.
Christian culture doesn't teach the full context so people are doomed to be ignorant about it. It doesn't even start in modern times, sodom and gomorah over time starts having cultures put a larger emphasis on the idea of same sex unions.
The ancient context of sexual assault and rape, was to humiliate someone, and lack of hospitality was the focus on this act as opposed to how unethical it is to sexually violate someone due to having no ethical code.
Most people think the act is what triggered God into destroying the cities, but in the story it was already on schedule to be detonated. The towns people wanting to assault the angels was just to show the reader just how far gone the people were. This happens more than once in the bible, where a city or a population that is being depicted as inhospitable performs sexual violence on a male or female.
Ezekiel expands on this , giving a list of reasons why sodom and gomorah was destroyed. The focus was heavy on greed, pride, having excess but never helping the poor. Even tho later prophetic works don't focus on homosexuality, it didn't stop christian and islamic schools of thought from extrapolating that from the account, and fast forward to modern times now its well established as a "legit" interpretation of the story.
Well did you know Hurricane Katrina was actually Gods punishment on New Orleans for being a hotbed of sin, sex, the occult? Or so I was told my several evangelicals after it happened.
Itâs all about the narrative.
They are homophobes first and foremost, and that narrative justifies overthrowing the government and installing a dictator as a response to same-sex marriage being legalized. In their mind, by supporting Trump they are preventing the destruction of America by an angry God.
https://scitechdaily.com/fire-and-brimstone-a-giant-space-rock-demolished-an-ancient-middle-eastern-city-and-everyone-in-it/
Here is what is most likely the real story. Asteroid.
I've actually seen many things that talk about that and how it was based on Ovid's Baucis and Philemon
Ofc many of the people who hold that view think the Bible is so unique and can't imagine it being inspired by other things.
The next part is that they don't understand how the act told of in Sodom was a way to humiliate foreigners
They were trying to gang rape strangers but the sin is gayness. Yeah that hasnât sat well with me and was the first thing to separate me from mainstream Christians. I am sure that city was into Gang Rape and had done it before but that is completely overlooked because gay.
Christians who enjoy being inhospitable and refusing to help the needy prefer to say the story is about homosexuality.
The association of sodomy and homosexuality is more of a modern thing than it is really traditional. Sodomy used to be considered any sexual act of gratification that would not result in pregnancy, like oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, sex with somebody that had any kind of "contraceptive", or any kind of like fetish play like BDSM would be considered sodomy under the more traditional term. And since pretty much any homosexual act cannot result in pregnancy it's associated with sodomy because everything they do with gay sex would technically be sodomy. It's a shitty association but it's there.
So Christianity is a breeding cult đ
Always has been
Someone hasn't heard of "quiverfull" before
Breed and indoctrinate for generations to come
Every religion is. Because it is all about numbers and taking over.
\*Every Abrahamic religion
I'm so glad I woke up from this. Was deep in the hole of purity culture (pun intended) and it made any form of sexual feelings full of guilt and shame. Sadly, my ex is shackled by Christianity and it turned out to be even worse. She told me that she wouldn't even date anymore. Just marry. Probably a shit head who needs a submissive wife. Sorry for the harsh words. Just found out today that she got deeper into denying reality.
Yeah, and the christians tend to conveniently forget that during the time the books of the Bible were being written, Roman & Greek homosexuality was very common and preferred as you mentioned as to being safe from reproduction. The soldiers would regularly fuck one another for companionship.
And then when you taking the fact that the story of Sodom and gamora is about hospitality and being kind to strangers it makes sense that you would want them burn from the earth when you're talking about a very isolated tribal group which is the original part of the Bible was a very tribalistic part would probably not want to go anywhere near there and would say that they are gone once it wiped off the plant.
Yes, precisely. When the Bible is taken in context of the times and culture it was written, itâs actually not a bad read. However, I would not suggest basing your life & morality on itâŚit has not been relevant since about 50 or so years after it was written.
I would say depending on the segments it could actually be applied even farther back cuz even like in the 1950s you didn't mix dairy with fish because early pasteurization of dairy wasn't nearly as thorough and you could end up being sick that's where a lot of like mixing dairy with meat was bad because you would get bacterial growth. And we look at things like where people of the Hebrew ethnicity they have a higher chance of having a shellfish allergy which means shellfish is unclean should be a prohibited food, same thing for pork early pork cooking was kind of risky and hard cuz if you didn't do it right you didn't cook it enough or preserve it enough you would get trichinosis. I'm not saying all of it's great not even their reasoning is great but it kind of makes sense when you look at those contexts.
Yes, great examples! If the Bible was simply used in those ways itâd be fine.
It's implied in Genesis the residents of Sodom were intent on gang raping the angels. Which admittedly is pretty inhospitable and would not make you popular amongst your neighbors. Ezekiel, OTOH, says thier sin was not caring for the less fortunate and needy. Which is shitty but not gang rape levels shitty.
Yeah! Godly people send their daughters out to be gang-raped instead of their guests!
It's a weird and disturbing story. It's also interesting that, like the Eden story, Ezekiel seems to know a different version of it then the one in Genesis. Ezekiel's take on Sodom's sin is thus. Ezekiel 16 ^(48) As I live, says the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. ^(49) This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease but did not aid the poor and needy. ^(50) They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it. Ezekiel doesn't allude to gang rape or homosexual behavior. He seems to think their big sins were being greedy assholes who don't help the poor.
>. He seems to think their big sins were being greedy assholes who don't help the poor. Ah yes, I think here in the States, we call that being "A God-fearing Christian," but I call them evil fucking demons bent on selfishly destroying this beautiful world for their own gain all the while believing they're so self-righteous. If I wasn't a pacifist, I'd take their money and shove it so far down their throats until they only ever shit out pennies. Jesus fucking Christ greed makes me intensely angry.
I was gonna make a crack about Ezekiel would be very pissed at a lot of those people but held off for whatever reason. Granted, Ezekiel was pissed about a lot of stuff(the entire book is him being pissed at stuff) but on this particular point I just happen to agree with him that greedy assholes who spit on the less fortunate deserve scorn.
It's the hospitable thing to do after all. You don't want to leave a sour taste in your guests mouth with rape or they'll think you're a bad host and all your future dinner party's will be a bust.
"Fun" fact: In the Bible after they flee the city, Lots daughters rape him so they could bare children because he was the only available option from their "tribe"/people. A lot of people like to ignore this part of the story.
When the people of Sodom attempt to rape angels Lot gives his daughters for them to rape instead... what a righteous man đ
If I remember right he only offered them, but they were rejected for the "visitors" and they never were handed over.
Nevertheless he "offered" them, like... maybe ask the daughters whether they want to be raped or not?
Why would you ask property anything? (Common stance of the time and of the Bible not my personal opinion.)
Ah yes, I forgot that God sees no problem in giving your daughter as a slave.
Women and children are slave/property to the head of the household primarily the father.
Yes I know, it's in the Bible but Christians never bring this up.
Oh some Evangelicals do, that dumbs umbrella picture/meme makes its rounds frequently in those groups. I have family that are Southern Baptist and post that on occasion.
Oh I've seen it
God uses imperfect people for His perfect plan /s
Note that no gay sex occurs in the Sodom narrative. No men kiss. No men hug. No men hold hands. There's no hint at all any guy even has a boyfriend. The righteous Lot, however, gets drunk and fucks both of his daughters after Yahweh murders their mom. Again, there's zero gay sex in this story, but lots of drunken daddy-daughter baby-making, with Yahweh conveniently murdering the wife and mother who might have objected to this horrifying family orgy.
Iâve also heard the excuse that Sodom had a rape culture to justify the destruction (essentially, itâs not that theyâre gay, itâs that theyâre gay rapists) which is super infuriating to hear because itâs straight up bold faced lies coming from the mouths of actual homophobic, rape apologists
Doesn't Lot get drunk because his daughters make him drunk and then they both rape him?
First case of victim blaming in history!
The Bible does indeed blame the daughters for getting their dad drunk and having sex with him--multiple times. This comes off as victim blaming, because there are no reported cases of two sisters gang raping their drunk dad with the express goal of giving birth to their own brothers.
Later on in the bible, [Jude 1:7](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%207&version=NIV) states that Sodom & Gomorrah 'gave themselves up sexual immorality and perversion.' Whatever that means though.
Note that drunken daddy-daughter rape is not considered sexual perversion in the Bible.
Because first of all, each religion, high control group, or cult cherry picks which scriptures they're even going to follow to begin with. Secondly, the all-male leadership of each group chooses and designs their own interpretation of scriptures. They typically decide on an interpretation that supports the already established policies and rules within the group. So for example, a high control group like the Jehovah's Witnesses hates the LGBTQ+ community. So their leadership creates "lessons" from bible stories that support their cult policies against this group. They in essence create their own context from each bible story, under the guise of possessing the only real "truth" about scripture.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is so similar to Ovid's metamorphoses that its almost certain either one copied the other or they came from the same original story https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2015/05/09/crime-and-punishment-in-sodom-and-gomorrah/
It's worse than that. The story is really a form of storytelling to define the origin of the Moabites and Amorites. It's a story told by 8th century Hebrews to describe the ancient origin of two of their enemies. It's pretty much what the Hatfields would come up with to tell the origin of the McCoys. Most of Genesis are bad origin stories and divine justification for land deals that 8th century Hebrews would tell each other to justify whatever they were doing to slowly take over Canaan from other tribes. It's using divine excuses for nefarious claims over land and people. Glad we don't see that type of behavior nowadays (manifest destiny and Christian nationalism, cough cough)
We don't the gender of the angels. They could have been female. Also, I find it strange that people think that god was more upset about homosexuality than people trying to coerce sex with people.
The scriptures refer to them as âmenâ. The crowd of men demanding they come out to be raped refer to them as such. I see the argument that itâs not about homosexuality but sexual violence and general debauchery. But that Lot is called righteous despite offering his daughters up to be gang-raped in lieu of strangers he just met must mean that hospitality is definitely the moral of this story. Hard to see any moral in it though...
Or the next time gang rape is mentioned, I think it was actually the tribe of Benjamin who did the raping?! I could be wrong it's been a long time. Anyway these gang rapers show up at this guys door And the guy throws his servant woman out there to the wolves I think it was implied she was in tremendous shock? Or just died. Well she definitely died when the master cut her up into pieces and shipped em out to the other tribes So then all the other tribes attacked the tribe of Benjamin or something So very messed up
It's almost like a retcon. In Genesis there's no real clarity, just that they were so sinful they had to be destroyed. To the point that not even 10 people in the whole city were redeemable. I guess they interpret the lustful mob as sexual degeneracy which they equate with homosexuality. Honestly it's anyone's guess. It was just a terrible place to be full of awful people. Whatever that means.
And yet gang raping two virgin girls is not considered degeneracy. In fact the father who arranged for his two vurgin daughters to be gang raped was considered to be "righteous" by the christian gods.
Because the Bible is reinterpreted to fit whatever narrative is necessary at the time. Almost all organized religions are built around political movements, and exist to further the goals of those movements.
It is very, very telling thatâs how they interpret it. They really tell on themselves so much. Their homophobia is not based on religious belief - itâs the other way around.
Christian culture doesn't teach the full context so people are doomed to be ignorant about it. It doesn't even start in modern times, sodom and gomorah over time starts having cultures put a larger emphasis on the idea of same sex unions. The ancient context of sexual assault and rape, was to humiliate someone, and lack of hospitality was the focus on this act as opposed to how unethical it is to sexually violate someone due to having no ethical code. Most people think the act is what triggered God into destroying the cities, but in the story it was already on schedule to be detonated. The towns people wanting to assault the angels was just to show the reader just how far gone the people were. This happens more than once in the bible, where a city or a population that is being depicted as inhospitable performs sexual violence on a male or female. Ezekiel expands on this , giving a list of reasons why sodom and gomorah was destroyed. The focus was heavy on greed, pride, having excess but never helping the poor. Even tho later prophetic works don't focus on homosexuality, it didn't stop christian and islamic schools of thought from extrapolating that from the account, and fast forward to modern times now its well established as a "legit" interpretation of the story.
Correct.
Its been rewritten numerous times for political reasons. Id start there.
Well did you know Hurricane Katrina was actually Gods punishment on New Orleans for being a hotbed of sin, sex, the occult? Or so I was told my several evangelicals after it happened. Itâs all about the narrative.
Because inhospitableness doesnât validate their homophobia
They are homophobes first and foremost, and that narrative justifies overthrowing the government and installing a dictator as a response to same-sex marriage being legalized. In their mind, by supporting Trump they are preventing the destruction of America by an angry God.
https://scitechdaily.com/fire-and-brimstone-a-giant-space-rock-demolished-an-ancient-middle-eastern-city-and-everyone-in-it/ Here is what is most likely the real story. Asteroid.
I've actually seen many things that talk about that and how it was based on Ovid's Baucis and Philemon Ofc many of the people who hold that view think the Bible is so unique and can't imagine it being inspired by other things. The next part is that they don't understand how the act told of in Sodom was a way to humiliate foreigners
They were trying to gang rape strangers but the sin is gayness. Yeah that hasnât sat well with me and was the first thing to separate me from mainstream Christians. I am sure that city was into Gang Rape and had done it before but that is completely overlooked because gay.
That verse is good to point out to Greed is Good right wing Christians
Iâve often wondered why they prefer to pick the low hanging fruit in their beliefs instead of choosing a more critical thinking approach .
Itâs interesting how the same people who defend pedophile pastors are the same people who are quick to demonize homosexuality.