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My girlfriend is a feminist and when I asked her if she could pick up groceries on her way back from work she leaned in and whispered in my ear that she was the one who actually did the Oklahoma City bombings and if I didn't want to wind up like them I'd shut the fuck up and learn my place
Huh? Why, I'm only 40. I'm following the rules, you're allowed to date anyone as long as their age is the inverse of yours. 14 = 41.
I mean she's the one that blew up all those people.
A real feminist would have made the omelette and eaten it right in front of you. The stabbing is only supposed to happen if you complain or comment while she is eating.
It was. I made it myself.
My name is Yoshikage Kira. I'm 33 years old. My house is in the northeast section of Morioh, where all the villas are, and I am not married. I work as an employee for the Kame Yu department stores, and I get home every day by 8 PM at the latest. I don't smoke, but I occasionally drink. I'm in bed by 11 PM, and make sure I get eight hours of sleep, no matter what. After having a glass of warm milk and doing about twenty minutes of stretches before going to bed, I usually have no problems sleeping until morning. Just like a baby, I wake up without any fatigue or stress in the morning. I was told there were no issues at my last check-up. I'm trying to explain that I'm a person who wishes to live a very quiet life. I take care not to trouble myself with any enemies, like winning and losing, that would cause me to lose sleep at night. That is how I deal with society, and I know that is what brings me happiness. Although, if I were to fight I wouldn't lose to anyone.
The whole point of feminism is literally just that women should have the autonomy to do what they want in life. So yes, that includes changing the world, or being in the military, or running big coorporations, or not having kids and things like that, but it ALSO includes things like being a stay-at-home spouse, or having lots of kids, or wearing dresses, or owning a cute little shop. In fact, most women aren't one or the other. Most women are a combination of traditionally "feminine" and traditionally "masculine" things. There are women who own coorporations who have a lot of kids, there are stay-at-home spouses who were in the military, etc. Feminism is not supposed to be an attack on "traditional femininity". It literally just means that women should be able to create a life that is right for them personally without being shoved into any particular box just because they're a woman, be that life tradtionally "feminine", traditonally "masculine", neither, or any combination thereof. Also, traditonally femininity is only one very specific type of femininity, and it's not even the oldest / most "traditional". Every woman is different and wants different things in life. That's what feminism is about.
Plus, if it weren't for feminism, she might not have the rights to set up a small restaurant where she can look out the kitchen and watch the customers. The only people she'd be allowed to take care of would be her children, and babysit some other children.
Pretty good explanation.
Also would like to add that feminism is good for everyone, including men.
The same system that oppresses women, by putting into a predetermined box, also oppresses men, because men also have the expectations of made up gender roles, the masculine, strong guy, who doesn't show emotions, don't cry and stuff. Which is why, right now, men suffer a lot from mental health issues.
As soon as we break these systems and make sure that people are free to craft their lives in such a way that it fits them, it'll literally be a benefit for everyone.
It's such a win, win, win thing, that I have trouble imagining why people have a problem with feminism.
Everyone benefits from it. Even the most egotistical asshole can benefit from a freer society.
some people don't believe that people should be allowed to break whatever gender roles are to them and whether they fully acknowledge it or not, some people within that are afraid of women taking over the traditionally masculine spaces they occupied. it's a natural reaction for a lot of people to be uncomfortable when their usual worldview gets challenged, and i think not enough people really account for that when trying to educate someone.
a lot of other people just have a completely different definition of feminism in their head. a lot of people fall into this trap because they saw someone claiming to be one being unreasonable or someone told them that feminist meant something that isn't about the freedom to choose.
every good and well meaning movement label that people can identify with will inevitably have some people that interpret it in a bad way. unfortunately for everyone, those are also the ones that often tend to leave the strongest impression and gain the most attention then give uninformed people the wrong idea.
i feel that a lot of good causes get stifled by people not acknowledging nuances to their labels. feminism especially i feel like most people wouldn't be against if someone just explained it to them properly (provided they're even willing to listen).
Agreed. It seems that most people associate feminism with female empowerment. While this isn't exactly wrong, it is an oversimplification of the concept. Feminism empowers everyone to be whoever they want to be in society. It's the concept that men, women, and whoever else are equal and should have the equal freedoms to choose their own path regardless of traditional gender roles. It doesn't tell us that traditional gender roles are wrong exactly, merely that nobody should HAVE to do something simply because of their gender. If a woman wants to be a homemaker, great. If a man wants to join the military, terrific. If a woman wants to join the military, awesome. If a man wants to be a homemaker, fantastic. None of these roles are wrong, so long as people have their own personal agency and freedom to choose.
>Also would like to add that feminism is good for everyone
By the definition above absolutely. Sadly like many causes/ideals, it has been perverted by some extreme "members" (I don't know the appropriate word) and they tend to be very loud especially online.
I would say it’s image has been perverted by non-feminists with a political agenda. The bulk of women believe they should be able to chose their lifestyle even if they are conservative. Look at notable conservative women, they are notable because they are NOT merely mothers and housewives. So they are also capitalizing on feminism. So the idea that a few weird feminists sounds like propaganda. Would we say this of any other minority group?
>It's such a win, win, win thing, that I have trouble imagining why people have a problem with feminism
In my experience, a lot of people don't consider feminism to be what it actually is, - like the person in the story. The whole "crazy feminist" fad there was on youtube 5-10 years ago is evidence of that. People who say "kill all men" call themselves feminists, so they're feminists. To themselves and people who are not feminists. While actual feminists get their name ruined by misandrists.
Most people don't have a problem with feminism, they just don't know what it is, so they think they do.
Idk if there is a solution to this. When I bring it up in an argument, people usually say that the meaning has changed, and I guess if people say so, they're right to some extent. 🤷
I consider myself a feminist, because I agree with the idea that women should have the same rights and oppertunities as men should..
That is way too nuanced of a take for the average redditor. Everybody knows feminists are a monolithic group that only believe in one thing, just like non-feminists. You either are or you aren't, with no room in between. Can't be telling people around here that everybody is different with their own set of goals and beliefs as if we exist on some kind of grayscale.
Wow this is the best definition of feminism I’ve ever read, it explained it in a way I never thought of. This will be how I explain feminism from now on lol
Yeah, and people always sleep on the fact that it’s about EQUALITY for BOTH GENDERS. Men are constrained by societal expectations too, just ask a male nurse, stay-at-home dad, etc. Everyone benefits from feminism, since you should be able to do what you want in life, regardless of whether you fit the societal norms or not. But people seem to think feminism and misandry are the same thing. Annoys the hell out of me.
And that in turn men are also not bound to 'traditional male roles' and are treated as individuals.
Plus it's not even just about the ability to choose, but also getting rid of the stigma that comes with 'traditional female' anything. (Or just female/feminine in general)
Of course it's also funny that what the character is describing goes completely against traditional female roles anyway...
the problem is that the loud mouthed zealots in that group give the rest a bad name. it's always the vocal minority in any good group screwing it up and giving fuel against the group. it's a pain
You need a wider context to see what the author is saying. I remember in a Q&A with Kevin Smith a woman criticized Chasing Amy for a character saying “all lesbians need is good dick” his response was, do you also remember that that character was wrong about everything?
Yeah, I'm not gonna judge an author by what their fictional characters are saying without the context.
Having a villain saying that we must kill every new born baby is not the same as the hero saying it.
There’s clearly another character teasing the “non-feminist” right there. The author actually used the word “tease”. They wrote another character making fun of the character who is viewing feminism as a narrow lane
i can understand, why some people would feel that, to be a proper feminist, they would need to strife for economic success and have a career instead of being a housewife, getting children, only working part time, going for classical feminine jobs etc.
dosnt mean every feminist is like that or even just the majority, but certainly enough that people feel pressured to live a certain, "feminist", way.
I just think it’s ironic because a big part of feminism originally was giving women more choice and those people are just trying to dictate women’s lives in another way.
Shid wanting to own your own business is the most girlboss feminism thing I can think of tf? 😂
There is a way to wrong flawed and ignorant characters tho so without the whole story we can’t fully determine if it’s as silly as it sounds at a surface level!
Judging a whole book by 1 page or a show by 1 episode is a recipe for disaster
The correct terms are second wave feminist, "gender critical" feminist, TERF and SWERF (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist and Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist respectively).
terf is specifically transphobic feminist, besides jkrowling and alot of right wing conservatives i think its mostly pushed by men. and terf arnt true feminist in the slightest.
my sister is a feminist and when i asked her if she could do the dishes because it was her turn, she ripped off her mask to reveal she was actually jeffery dahmer and then stabbed me
“I am just a simple trad-wife that does NOT subscribe to notions of self-determination for women. Which is why, unlike these air-headed feminists, I only desire to individually finance and operate a small business on my own”
Authors write characters like this because there are people like this. Art reflecting life. It doesn’t mean that the author agrees with the character’s perspective or shares their mindset. Authors write unsympathetic characters all the time.
I genuinely do remember a discussion with an acquintance who felt that working as a server was degrading as a women, because it reinforced the stereotype of women being submissive to men. The fact that it is a job you can be proud of (and I did at the time as a man) was irrelevant to her.
It is a strawman if you take the average feminist as your baseline. However, in stories, the people with quirks/out of the ordinary views can have a place. I don't know where this text comes from, but equating this portrayal of a woman being conflicted in her role as a representation of the whole of feminism shows a lack of critical thinking.
You're one level too shallow. It's a character in the world who has a strawman version of feminism. The author is criticising that character (and by extension their viewpoint).
"It's almost impossible not to tease Theo"
The author is calling out the absurdity of the character's view on feminism. The author does not believe what Theo believes. Why are you ignoring that?
Maybe sometimes. But I'm pretty sure this is Jasmine Guillory and she writes mediocre romance novels where the main characters are all shameless self-inserts and the rest are a combination of tropes and wish fulfillment.
Yeah I'm sure the romcom genre of literature is going for deeply challenging antihero protagonists 🙄
It's a self insert for conservative white women with a bad case of NLOG, who are a huge chunk of the genres consumer base. And I am confident I have read more from the genre than 95% of this thread.
You know what's really bad for feminism? The idea that women HAVE to be a certain way or they're not feminist.
Isn't your version of cutthroat feminism also boxing women into roles that they don't want to do?
What is wrong with having preferences and different attitudes?
Instead of empowerment, all that "feminism" seems to be is another checklist of things women are supposed to do.
You are agreeing with me as if you're arguing with me.
My whole point is that the image OP posted does not accurately reflect the ideas of feminism, because boxing women into pre-packaged roles goes against everything feminism stands for. Feminists would not agree with the woman as written in the book from which OP posted an excerpt. The person I responded to said that the book accurately represents feminist ideas, and I said it doesn't.
Okay, if this is taken at face value then yes, this is stupid. But there are *so* many women who *do* feel guilty or like they're letting down the rest of women who have it worse by not choosing a path that challenges patriarchy. People feel guilty because they choose to stay home for their children, because they want to lead a quiet life, because they are feminine and unconfrontational, because of this and that. Real people. *Yes* it's misguided, *no* that isn't what feminism is, but these are worries that regular people have when they're conflicted between their sense of justice and beliefs in equal political freedoms and equality in society versus their own, personal, private wishes for their life that are viewed as "traditional", such as homemaking and living a quiet life centered on family.
So for a fictional character to express these concerns and insecurities? Doesn't mean the author, or the book, or even the narrative automatically supports the notion that feminism = women must always be in power positions and having a small restaurant is anti-feminist and therefore feminism also = evil, taking away women's rights to be \~naturally feminine\~, etc. ad nauseam.
It's... literally just that character's arc, their development, their circumstances, the themes they're struggling with. It doesn't automatically add up to any specific agenda they're pushing. To determine whether that is the case, you have to look at the work at large, not just a random screenshot of a tiny out of context bit of dialogue from the middle.
And here in the comments we are seeing a classic case of "the author wrote it, so he thinks exactly that" and "if the label I identify as is written, then it must be a direct representation of exactly what I believe".
I would bet money the author added this bit because they wanted a female character with modest, small-scale ambitions and somehow got the idea that it would be seen as sexist. Feminism is allowing women to have whatever ambitions they want and have just as much likelihood of achieving them as men do of achieving theirs. Telling women they can only have grand ambitions is just as bad as telling them they can't, and the manufactured outrage in favour of either is just killing the ability to talk about it like adults. Let people choose what they want to do in life, and let them all have reasonable opportunity to do it, such that the only factors in whether they succeed is how tough their goals are and how well they apply themselves.
It's almost like we can analyze trends within genres and recognize romance writers are not usually writing complex challenging character to challenge their readership and should be called out for their pandering and normalization of stupid (and yes lazy) tropes
Similarly, fantasy writers need to stop relying on ethnic tropes so heavy handedly. I get it was a genre norm for a long time. Do better as a writer, and if you can't....maybe find a different career. Or at least don't do a surprise Pikachu when you get pushback from your critics for perpetuating the worst norms of your genre
"It's almost impossible not to tease Theo"
The author is calling out the absurdity of the character's view on feminism. The author does not believe what Theo believes. Why are you ignoring that?
What's the facepalm here? You literally have the PoV character mocking the ignorance of the other character.
Should authors just not have characters ever be ignorant about something? You're on Reddit!
I don’t know this writer so I can’t comment specifically but writers can write characters with stupid opinions, cos at the end of the day these people do exist and the book is fiction after all. Not everything people write in books is a direct reflection of their own opinions
Feminists are allowed to cook. Feminists are allowed to make food for other people. The important thing is they don't feel like it's their only choice in life.
To be fair, I’d like to see the wider context. Because the ‘you have to be heartless to be a feminist line?’ Implies that the other character knows she’s incorrect about that; and I’d be interested in seeing whether or not that position gets critiqued or challenged throughout the book.
Also people really shouldn’t attribute that position to the author unless there’s good reason to do. Some people do hold such bad and ignorant positions. If the author wrote it a way to agree with or justify them, which that little line in the middle of her talking implies otherwise, then I’d see an issue. But having an ignorant character in and of themselves isn’t a problem.
Schrodinger's feminism A:
* strong
* empowered
* free to make own choices
* no different from men
ALSO B:
* always a victim
* man is always responsible
* always to be believed, never lies
This strategy works, in some areas (work for example) woman are A type feminism, in criminal, divorce, family court they are B type.
And it seems that they get what they want.
Just because the characters say this, doesn't mean the author thinks it. The author could be portraying dumb characters or something. They might be criticising this standpoint. Yay media illiteracy
Given that many misogynists want women to be owned by their husbands then being able to be a small business owner is kinda a result of feminists defending women's rights.
Eh, I kinda get where she's coming from. It's pretty shit dialogue and and it does come off as a little silly if written by a guy. Course this is all from a snippet, hard to judge the whole work from a screenshot that's less than half a page long.
I'm a feminist and I fucking love cooking. If someone asked me to be a stay at home wife I'd be fucking all over it. Hell yeah bro, I'll cook you the tastiest food you've ever tried.
This whole paragraph is contradictng itself.
Without feminism this person couldn't own her own restaurant, yet alone earn her own money.
And you dont need ambitions to run a restaurant? Owning your own restaurant is like a textbook example of an ambitious dream.
Also just saying feminist dont wanna take over the world and rule like evil queens, they wanna make the world a better more EQUAL place for EVERYBODY, including men. *something that many, including some "feminists", dont want to understand*
Do people not understand that characters can be stupid and have different opinions than the author?
This character might be a mouthpiece for the author or the author could just be writing a moron.
Ya know, there are plenty of feminists that want nothing more than to have 2-4 kids and stay at home raising them, while making dinner for their husband every night.
The whole point of feminism isn't to condemn being a domestic housewife, it only condemns the idea that women *must* be that way.
What morons think feminism is: "all women should aspire for greatness and power and men aren't allowed to stand in their way"
Actual feminism: "I just think women should be allowed to choose what they want and value instead of having values forced on them because of their gender"
Yeah, I re-read the excerpt multiple times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding, but it looks like many of the comments are wrong. The Theo character is a bit ignorant, but it isn't the author or narrating character expressing that view of feminism. Not every belief expressed in a fictional work is the one held by the author. Kinda silly to make a facepalm post of this.
I'll never understand women who are thriving because of the feminist ancestors not understanding they'd NEVER own a restaurant that didn't have a man's name attached. They'd never have a bank account, credit card or car without a man's name on it without feminists. In fact to even "own"
a business she'd likely have to be married or inherited it from her father and still have a man in charge of the finances. Smh
Okay but this is a really cute (and spicy!) book and there really was this big “lean-in” “girl boss” cultural propaganda for a while being equated with feminism.
Girls were made to feel like that’s what feminism was.
I'm pretty sure feminism is about women doing whatever they want in life, like men do, including owning small businesses. I've never heard anything about taking over the world.
How is someone dreaming of owning a restaurant and feeding people misogynist?
Like I’m all for women having a voice, equal rights, whatever, but even the tone of how the character is written doesn’t support your dumbass statement. Her ambition is to see people fulfilled and happy.
Maybe take a note from that.
Lol
I'm a feminist and I'm a total introvert. I'd rather stay at home then "go conquer the world". And I love to cook for my people... doesn't make me less of a feminist.
So, does anyone have the context? Where is this passage being excerpted from? Knowing the work may shed additional light on the intended meaning of the characters' dialouge.
People who don't get feminism need to watch Mona Lisa Smile.
Julia Stiles's character had a great arc. Her conclusion really helped frame all sides of Feminism.
The mainstream pop culture version, sure.
The media constantly encouraging everyone to reach for the stars and become big shot CEO Scientist Engineers is good for big business and capitalism, but not necessarily for every individual.
Don't confuse pop culture versions of things with the thing itself, you will NEVER see genuine feminism from corporate owned juggernauts who only see us as worker bees in their hive.
fem·i·nism
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
"the inclusion of all these women in modern art history textbooks shows the impact feminism has had on the field"
So, she wants to own her own business, doing something she loves, and this is somehow antifeminist? Well, no stupider than some of the comments I see here about what incels think "feminism" is.
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My girlfriend is a feminist and I asked her to make me a breakfast. She stabbed me 24 times and threw a delicious omelette made with love at my face
Only 24 times and she made you an omelette? She’s not a true feminist
Don't say that, you'll make her sad
Feminist don't have emotions other than anger, definitely not a true feminist
Its supposed to be [28 times](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS_Afdh84h0&t=134s). She failed.
*Slams file on desk* 28 STAB WOUNDS!
you didn’t want to leave him a chance, HUH?
#STRESS LEVEL 100%
HE WAS SCREAMING, **BEGGING YOU FOR MERCY.** AND YET YOU STABBED HIM AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.
24 is one more than Caesar. That omelette comment was worse than declaring yourself dictator or Rome.
Et Tu Brute?
I hope this gets the upvotes it deserves.
My girlfriend is a feminist and when I asked her if she could pick up groceries on her way back from work she leaned in and whispered in my ear that she was the one who actually did the Oklahoma City bombings and if I didn't want to wind up like them I'd shut the fuck up and learn my place
McFeighminist
Take your upvote and leave
Your girlfriend is old.
That's the thing, she's fourteen, it doesn't even seem possible, but the way she said it, I don't have any doubts
🚨🚨🚨👮♂️ 👮 👮♀️
Please don't call the police on her. Even if she did the Oklahoma Bombings, that's no reason to ruin a young person's life.
I meant the 14 yo thing. I’d be calling the popo on you, bud.
Huh? Why, I'm only 40. I'm following the rules, you're allowed to date anyone as long as their age is the inverse of yours. 14 = 41. I mean she's the one that blew up all those people.
💀💀💀 Gg, bro 🤝 Brb, gotta hit up the nursing home
Rocking the grave
Yes queen
Correct that is what I said.
Slay girlboss
That's called tough love 😉
24 stab wounds!
You didn't want to give them a chance HUH!?
A real feminist would have made the omelette and eaten it right in front of you. The stabbing is only supposed to happen if you complain or comment while she is eating.
Was it a good omelette?
Yummy. A Denver with all the trimmings.
The best omelette
It was. I made it myself. My name is Yoshikage Kira. I'm 33 years old. My house is in the northeast section of Morioh, where all the villas are, and I am not married. I work as an employee for the Kame Yu department stores, and I get home every day by 8 PM at the latest. I don't smoke, but I occasionally drink. I'm in bed by 11 PM, and make sure I get eight hours of sleep, no matter what. After having a glass of warm milk and doing about twenty minutes of stretches before going to bed, I usually have no problems sleeping until morning. Just like a baby, I wake up without any fatigue or stress in the morning. I was told there were no issues at my last check-up. I'm trying to explain that I'm a person who wishes to live a very quiet life. I take care not to trouble myself with any enemies, like winning and losing, that would cause me to lose sleep at night. That is how I deal with society, and I know that is what brings me happiness. Although, if I were to fight I wouldn't lose to anyone.
TWENTY-EIGHT STAB WOUNDS!!
Gotta break a few bones to make an omelette
Well, 100 is the limit, so consider yourself lucky.
the dream
Sometimes to make an omelette you gotta break a few men.
Damn she didn't give you 28 STAB WOUNDS?
The whole point of feminism is literally just that women should have the autonomy to do what they want in life. So yes, that includes changing the world, or being in the military, or running big coorporations, or not having kids and things like that, but it ALSO includes things like being a stay-at-home spouse, or having lots of kids, or wearing dresses, or owning a cute little shop. In fact, most women aren't one or the other. Most women are a combination of traditionally "feminine" and traditionally "masculine" things. There are women who own coorporations who have a lot of kids, there are stay-at-home spouses who were in the military, etc. Feminism is not supposed to be an attack on "traditional femininity". It literally just means that women should be able to create a life that is right for them personally without being shoved into any particular box just because they're a woman, be that life tradtionally "feminine", traditonally "masculine", neither, or any combination thereof. Also, traditonally femininity is only one very specific type of femininity, and it's not even the oldest / most "traditional". Every woman is different and wants different things in life. That's what feminism is about.
Plus, if it weren't for feminism, she might not have the rights to set up a small restaurant where she can look out the kitchen and watch the customers. The only people she'd be allowed to take care of would be her children, and babysit some other children.
Oh, don't worry. Her husband or her dad could set the business up for her and "let" her run it.
Pretty good explanation. Also would like to add that feminism is good for everyone, including men. The same system that oppresses women, by putting into a predetermined box, also oppresses men, because men also have the expectations of made up gender roles, the masculine, strong guy, who doesn't show emotions, don't cry and stuff. Which is why, right now, men suffer a lot from mental health issues. As soon as we break these systems and make sure that people are free to craft their lives in such a way that it fits them, it'll literally be a benefit for everyone. It's such a win, win, win thing, that I have trouble imagining why people have a problem with feminism. Everyone benefits from it. Even the most egotistical asshole can benefit from a freer society.
some people don't believe that people should be allowed to break whatever gender roles are to them and whether they fully acknowledge it or not, some people within that are afraid of women taking over the traditionally masculine spaces they occupied. it's a natural reaction for a lot of people to be uncomfortable when their usual worldview gets challenged, and i think not enough people really account for that when trying to educate someone. a lot of other people just have a completely different definition of feminism in their head. a lot of people fall into this trap because they saw someone claiming to be one being unreasonable or someone told them that feminist meant something that isn't about the freedom to choose. every good and well meaning movement label that people can identify with will inevitably have some people that interpret it in a bad way. unfortunately for everyone, those are also the ones that often tend to leave the strongest impression and gain the most attention then give uninformed people the wrong idea. i feel that a lot of good causes get stifled by people not acknowledging nuances to their labels. feminism especially i feel like most people wouldn't be against if someone just explained it to them properly (provided they're even willing to listen).
Agreed. It seems that most people associate feminism with female empowerment. While this isn't exactly wrong, it is an oversimplification of the concept. Feminism empowers everyone to be whoever they want to be in society. It's the concept that men, women, and whoever else are equal and should have the equal freedoms to choose their own path regardless of traditional gender roles. It doesn't tell us that traditional gender roles are wrong exactly, merely that nobody should HAVE to do something simply because of their gender. If a woman wants to be a homemaker, great. If a man wants to join the military, terrific. If a woman wants to join the military, awesome. If a man wants to be a homemaker, fantastic. None of these roles are wrong, so long as people have their own personal agency and freedom to choose.
>Also would like to add that feminism is good for everyone By the definition above absolutely. Sadly like many causes/ideals, it has been perverted by some extreme "members" (I don't know the appropriate word) and they tend to be very loud especially online.
I would say it’s image has been perverted by non-feminists with a political agenda. The bulk of women believe they should be able to chose their lifestyle even if they are conservative. Look at notable conservative women, they are notable because they are NOT merely mothers and housewives. So they are also capitalizing on feminism. So the idea that a few weird feminists sounds like propaganda. Would we say this of any other minority group?
>It's such a win, win, win thing, that I have trouble imagining why people have a problem with feminism In my experience, a lot of people don't consider feminism to be what it actually is, - like the person in the story. The whole "crazy feminist" fad there was on youtube 5-10 years ago is evidence of that. People who say "kill all men" call themselves feminists, so they're feminists. To themselves and people who are not feminists. While actual feminists get their name ruined by misandrists. Most people don't have a problem with feminism, they just don't know what it is, so they think they do. Idk if there is a solution to this. When I bring it up in an argument, people usually say that the meaning has changed, and I guess if people say so, they're right to some extent. 🤷 I consider myself a feminist, because I agree with the idea that women should have the same rights and oppertunities as men should..
Are you humanizing a group? But if I don't demonize them, how will I validate my hatred? /s
That is way too nuanced of a take for the average redditor. Everybody knows feminists are a monolithic group that only believe in one thing, just like non-feminists. You either are or you aren't, with no room in between. Can't be telling people around here that everybody is different with their own set of goals and beliefs as if we exist on some kind of grayscale.
Wow this is the best definition of feminism I’ve ever read, it explained it in a way I never thought of. This will be how I explain feminism from now on lol
Yeah, and people always sleep on the fact that it’s about EQUALITY for BOTH GENDERS. Men are constrained by societal expectations too, just ask a male nurse, stay-at-home dad, etc. Everyone benefits from feminism, since you should be able to do what you want in life, regardless of whether you fit the societal norms or not. But people seem to think feminism and misandry are the same thing. Annoys the hell out of me.
Completely agree with you
But that would imply that women are just regular people like us men /s since that's probably necessary in this sub
Her dream to own a tiny restraint is also due to feminism. As if women of the past were allowed to own businesses lmao.
And that in turn men are also not bound to 'traditional male roles' and are treated as individuals. Plus it's not even just about the ability to choose, but also getting rid of the stigma that comes with 'traditional female' anything. (Or just female/feminine in general) Of course it's also funny that what the character is describing goes completely against traditional female roles anyway...
Right?? Why is this so hard to understand? I was so confused reading this piece, like, I didn´t get what had one to do with the other
the problem is that the loud mouthed zealots in that group give the rest a bad name. it's always the vocal minority in any good group screwing it up and giving fuel against the group. it's a pain
You need a wider context to see what the author is saying. I remember in a Q&A with Kevin Smith a woman criticized Chasing Amy for a character saying “all lesbians need is good dick” his response was, do you also remember that that character was wrong about everything?
Yeah, I'm not gonna judge an author by what their fictional characters are saying without the context. Having a villain saying that we must kill every new born baby is not the same as the hero saying it.
Id be fine if a hero said it too as long as that hero was admired by people within a flawed or unethical society to let the reader know it was wrong
Yup, as long as real people believe something, then a realistic fictional character might believe it as well.
that's not a hero, that's a protagonist. Big difference
There’s clearly another character teasing the “non-feminist” right there. The author actually used the word “tease”. They wrote another character making fun of the character who is viewing feminism as a narrow lane
Feminism is about telling women what kind of life they should live, apparently.
i can understand, why some people would feel that, to be a proper feminist, they would need to strife for economic success and have a career instead of being a housewife, getting children, only working part time, going for classical feminine jobs etc. dosnt mean every feminist is like that or even just the majority, but certainly enough that people feel pressured to live a certain, "feminist", way.
I just think it’s ironic because a big part of feminism originally was giving women more choice and those people are just trying to dictate women’s lives in another way.
Shid wanting to own your own business is the most girlboss feminism thing I can think of tf? 😂 There is a way to wrong flawed and ignorant characters tho so without the whole story we can’t fully determine if it’s as silly as it sounds at a surface level! Judging a whole book by 1 page or a show by 1 episode is a recipe for disaster
Yes, because all us feminists just hate helping people. We despise it. We all hate doing anything nice on any level. 🙄 Grow up.
You are correct, all feminists are career obsessed man hater, lesbians without a spec of human compassion. /s in case people are dumb
*political lesbians Actually sapphic women can go fuck themselves /s also
Don't forget to mention that they never trim their body hair. It's always relevant. /s asvwell
Those are militant feminists. No one likes those except other militant feminists.
i call them ultra-conservative feminist.
The correct terms are second wave feminist, "gender critical" feminist, TERF and SWERF (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist and Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist respectively).
terf is specifically transphobic feminist, besides jkrowling and alot of right wing conservatives i think its mostly pushed by men. and terf arnt true feminist in the slightest.
the people who think/assume femnist are hateful people are coming from mysognistic incels mostly.
my sister is a feminist and when i asked her if she could do the dishes because it was her turn, she ripped off her mask to reveal she was actually jeffery dahmer and then stabbed me
“I am just a simple trad-wife that does NOT subscribe to notions of self-determination for women. Which is why, unlike these air-headed feminists, I only desire to individually finance and operate a small business on my own”
Feminism is the ability to own your own corner restaurant that's such bullshit
Authors write characters like this because there are people like this. Art reflecting life. It doesn’t mean that the author agrees with the character’s perspective or shares their mindset. Authors write unsympathetic characters all the time.
The framing of it (“it’s almost impossible not to tease Theo.”) makes it seem like it’s supposed to be quirky and sweet, not gross and annoying. 🤷♀️
How is being a restaurant owner who just wants a simple life "unsympathetic"?
It’s not, they were just using another example. You could fit a “for instance” before the last sentence to clarify it a little bit.
This goes past that. It’s fairly clear they’re writing a strawman version of feminism to criticize it.
I genuinely do remember a discussion with an acquintance who felt that working as a server was degrading as a women, because it reinforced the stereotype of women being submissive to men. The fact that it is a job you can be proud of (and I did at the time as a man) was irrelevant to her. It is a strawman if you take the average feminist as your baseline. However, in stories, the people with quirks/out of the ordinary views can have a place. I don't know where this text comes from, but equating this portrayal of a woman being conflicted in her role as a representation of the whole of feminism shows a lack of critical thinking.
You're one level too shallow. It's a character in the world who has a strawman version of feminism. The author is criticising that character (and by extension their viewpoint).
"It's almost impossible not to tease Theo" The author is calling out the absurdity of the character's view on feminism. The author does not believe what Theo believes. Why are you ignoring that?
Maybe sometimes. But I'm pretty sure this is Jasmine Guillory and she writes mediocre romance novels where the main characters are all shameless self-inserts and the rest are a combination of tropes and wish fulfillment.
Yeah I'm sure the romcom genre of literature is going for deeply challenging antihero protagonists 🙄 It's a self insert for conservative white women with a bad case of NLOG, who are a huge chunk of the genres consumer base. And I am confident I have read more from the genre than 95% of this thread.
Feminists don't talk or think like this.
You know what's really bad for feminism? The idea that women HAVE to be a certain way or they're not feminist. Isn't your version of cutthroat feminism also boxing women into roles that they don't want to do? What is wrong with having preferences and different attitudes? Instead of empowerment, all that "feminism" seems to be is another checklist of things women are supposed to do.
You are agreeing with me as if you're arguing with me. My whole point is that the image OP posted does not accurately reflect the ideas of feminism, because boxing women into pre-packaged roles goes against everything feminism stands for. Feminists would not agree with the woman as written in the book from which OP posted an excerpt. The person I responded to said that the book accurately represents feminist ideas, and I said it doesn't.
I thought you said feminists don't talk or think like this in response to the OC, and not in agreement. My b
Imagine thinking running a kitchen is a cute hobby where you get to peak around lol.
The character’s saying it, not the author.
Okay, if this is taken at face value then yes, this is stupid. But there are *so* many women who *do* feel guilty or like they're letting down the rest of women who have it worse by not choosing a path that challenges patriarchy. People feel guilty because they choose to stay home for their children, because they want to lead a quiet life, because they are feminine and unconfrontational, because of this and that. Real people. *Yes* it's misguided, *no* that isn't what feminism is, but these are worries that regular people have when they're conflicted between their sense of justice and beliefs in equal political freedoms and equality in society versus their own, personal, private wishes for their life that are viewed as "traditional", such as homemaking and living a quiet life centered on family. So for a fictional character to express these concerns and insecurities? Doesn't mean the author, or the book, or even the narrative automatically supports the notion that feminism = women must always be in power positions and having a small restaurant is anti-feminist and therefore feminism also = evil, taking away women's rights to be \~naturally feminine\~, etc. ad nauseam. It's... literally just that character's arc, their development, their circumstances, the themes they're struggling with. It doesn't automatically add up to any specific agenda they're pushing. To determine whether that is the case, you have to look at the work at large, not just a random screenshot of a tiny out of context bit of dialogue from the middle.
Exactly. Thanks for saying this. I feel this all the time.
add to that that the 'self' in the book literally teases the girl for saying 'i am not a feminist' i mean... come on...
“I am not ambitious I just want to own and operate my own business” … what?
Feminism won't let.me own my own business! Says the author writing a woman.
And here in the comments we are seeing a classic case of "the author wrote it, so he thinks exactly that" and "if the label I identify as is written, then it must be a direct representation of exactly what I believe".
I would bet money the author added this bit because they wanted a female character with modest, small-scale ambitions and somehow got the idea that it would be seen as sexist. Feminism is allowing women to have whatever ambitions they want and have just as much likelihood of achieving them as men do of achieving theirs. Telling women they can only have grand ambitions is just as bad as telling them they can't, and the manufactured outrage in favour of either is just killing the ability to talk about it like adults. Let people choose what they want to do in life, and let them all have reasonable opportunity to do it, such that the only factors in whether they succeed is how tough their goals are and how well they apply themselves.
its almost like a writer can create ignorant characters to mirror people in the real world
It's almost like we can analyze trends within genres and recognize romance writers are not usually writing complex challenging character to challenge their readership and should be called out for their pandering and normalization of stupid (and yes lazy) tropes Similarly, fantasy writers need to stop relying on ethnic tropes so heavy handedly. I get it was a genre norm for a long time. Do better as a writer, and if you can't....maybe find a different career. Or at least don't do a surprise Pikachu when you get pushback from your critics for perpetuating the worst norms of your genre
"It's almost impossible not to tease Theo" The author is calling out the absurdity of the character's view on feminism. The author does not believe what Theo believes. Why are you ignoring that?
because then, they couldn't get all upset and go about virtue signal a little
What's the facepalm here? You literally have the PoV character mocking the ignorance of the other character. Should authors just not have characters ever be ignorant about something? You're on Reddit!
I don’t know this writer so I can’t comment specifically but writers can write characters with stupid opinions, cos at the end of the day these people do exist and the book is fiction after all. Not everything people write in books is a direct reflection of their own opinions
Running a restaurant is very ambitious! Most shut down in the first year.
Feminists are allowed to cook. Feminists are allowed to make food for other people. The important thing is they don't feel like it's their only choice in life.
It's not feminist for a woman to own a small business?
To be fair, I’d like to see the wider context. Because the ‘you have to be heartless to be a feminist line?’ Implies that the other character knows she’s incorrect about that; and I’d be interested in seeing whether or not that position gets critiqued or challenged throughout the book. Also people really shouldn’t attribute that position to the author unless there’s good reason to do. Some people do hold such bad and ignorant positions. If the author wrote it a way to agree with or justify them, which that little line in the middle of her talking implies otherwise, then I’d see an issue. But having an ignorant character in and of themselves isn’t a problem.
Feminism is when small restaurant bad, obviously
Wanting to open your own restaurant actually sounds kinda ambitious. Well, atleast to my lazy/contempt with my life ass
A woman owning her own business and being content with her life is VERY Feminist.
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Schrodinger's feminism A: * strong * empowered * free to make own choices * no different from men ALSO B: * always a victim * man is always responsible * always to be believed, never lies This strategy works, in some areas (work for example) woman are A type feminism, in criminal, divorce, family court they are B type. And it seems that they get what they want.
Guys, is it misogynistic to feed people? All evidence points to yes.
I gotta say, that restaurant dream sounds great.
Just because the characters say this, doesn't mean the author thinks it. The author could be portraying dumb characters or something. They might be criticising this standpoint. Yay media illiteracy
Bubs isn't very kind... I prefer this Bubbles 
Given that many misogynists want women to be owned by their husbands then being able to be a small business owner is kinda a result of feminists defending women's rights.
Eh, I kinda get where she's coming from. It's pretty shit dialogue and and it does come off as a little silly if written by a guy. Course this is all from a snippet, hard to judge the whole work from a screenshot that's less than half a page long.
I'm a feminist and I fucking love cooking. If someone asked me to be a stay at home wife I'd be fucking all over it. Hell yeah bro, I'll cook you the tastiest food you've ever tried.
This whole paragraph is contradictng itself. Without feminism this person couldn't own her own restaurant, yet alone earn her own money. And you dont need ambitions to run a restaurant? Owning your own restaurant is like a textbook example of an ambitious dream. Also just saying feminist dont wanna take over the world and rule like evil queens, they wanna make the world a better more EQUAL place for EVERYBODY, including men. *something that many, including some "feminists", dont want to understand*
I might be out of my depth here, but I assumed feminism meant for the sexes to be equals? For women not to be second class citizens in the world?
Just because a character says something stupid doesn't necessarily mean the author believes it.
Do people not understand that characters can be stupid and have different opinions than the author? This character might be a mouthpiece for the author or the author could just be writing a moron.
Tell me you don't know what feminism is, in the stupidest way possible.
Why is everbody mad that she sounds wholesome? Isn't it a problem that feminism is perceived this way?
Ya know, there are plenty of feminists that want nothing more than to have 2-4 kids and stay at home raising them, while making dinner for their husband every night. The whole point of feminism isn't to condemn being a domestic housewife, it only condemns the idea that women *must* be that way.
What morons think feminism is: "all women should aspire for greatness and power and men aren't allowed to stand in their way" Actual feminism: "I just think women should be allowed to choose what they want and value instead of having values forced on them because of their gender"
The facepalm is op not understanding what is being called out.
Yeah, I re-read the excerpt multiple times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding, but it looks like many of the comments are wrong. The Theo character is a bit ignorant, but it isn't the author or narrating character expressing that view of feminism. Not every belief expressed in a fictional work is the one held by the author. Kinda silly to make a facepalm post of this.
And most of the comments.
Definitely not feminist
I'll never understand women who are thriving because of the feminist ancestors not understanding they'd NEVER own a restaurant that didn't have a man's name attached. They'd never have a bank account, credit card or car without a man's name on it without feminists. In fact to even "own" a business she'd likely have to be married or inherited it from her father and still have a man in charge of the finances. Smh
Gods, modern writing really is just garbage.
Is this perhaps also a r/menwritingwomen moment?
Okay but this is a really cute (and spicy!) book and there really was this big “lean-in” “girl boss” cultural propaganda for a while being equated with feminism. Girls were made to feel like that’s what feminism was.
What annoys me more is people that call themselves feminists and then throw a tantrum when someone tries to split the check.
Some people when a character is written to have unlikeable opinions (they expected the the ENTIRE cast to be the author's self-insert): 🤯
I thought feminism was about choice and having agency over your own life and being equal?
Motte/Bailey
I'm pretty sure feminism is about women doing whatever they want in life, like men do, including owning small businesses. I've never heard anything about taking over the world.
How is someone dreaming of owning a restaurant and feeding people misogynist? Like I’m all for women having a voice, equal rights, whatever, but even the tone of how the character is written doesn’t support your dumbass statement. Her ambition is to see people fulfilled and happy. Maybe take a note from that.
Why did you edit out the likes?
Never let it be said that feminists are sensitive.
I dunno, feminism has its extremists like every group. I’ve seen crazier things said haha.
Lol I'm a feminist and I'm a total introvert. I'd rather stay at home then "go conquer the world". And I love to cook for my people... doesn't make me less of a feminist.
Because they don't lol
So, does anyone have the context? Where is this passage being excerpted from? Knowing the work may shed additional light on the intended meaning of the characters' dialouge.
People who don't get feminism need to watch Mona Lisa Smile. Julia Stiles's character had a great arc. Her conclusion really helped frame all sides of Feminism.
How does any of this have to do with feminism?
What book is this?
reeks of colleen hoover
Wanting to own a business is one of the most ambitious things in the world if they don't have family money or connections
whats wrong?
As per the author or as per the character?
My wife and her friends are feminists, and I can tell you now whenever I say anything they beat the shit out of me and throw me in the trash.
Owning a Restaurant is more than a 40 hour week, sweety
This isn't feminism, this is people full of hate and mental health issues!
World domination has certainly seemed to be part of the agenda for some feminists.
All of the best people I know are feminists. Compassion kind of comes with the territory.
The mainstream pop culture version, sure. The media constantly encouraging everyone to reach for the stars and become big shot CEO Scientist Engineers is good for big business and capitalism, but not necessarily for every individual. Don't confuse pop culture versions of things with the thing itself, you will NEVER see genuine feminism from corporate owned juggernauts who only see us as worker bees in their hive.
I feed people because I’m a Socialist.
fem·i·nism noun the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes. "the inclusion of all these women in modern art history textbooks shows the impact feminism has had on the field"
So, she wants to own her own business, doing something she loves, and this is somehow antifeminist? Well, no stupider than some of the comments I see here about what incels think "feminism" is.
Being annoyed at something a fictional book character says. Classic reddit.
OH how narrow minded people can be while striving to get a label. Try being human.
What's feminist about trying to save the world and simultaneously wanting a restaurant to peek out of?
tumblr user grade convo
Yes, wanting your own cafe, regardless the size, is ambitious...
This constant picking apart of EVERYTHING to fit XX agenda is censorship of free speech and ruining our culture as a whole. Do better