Yeah, this is definitely what is happening.
I've never had an FFL call and say "your gun is here, you must fill out the 4473". It's pretty much an implied task, no way home boy with the FFL is letting people walk out without filling one out.
I have but I live in a not so gun friendly state with some less than 2A friendly FFLs so sometimes they go the extra mile to exaggerate the legal process
One of my former FFLs I dealt with is vehemently in favor of Firearm licensing policies that cost money to exercise your rights and add insane delays to purchases for first time buyers. A friend of mine that I suggested to use him (suggestion came before my poor interaction, friends purchase was after) said he tried to refuse transfer on a handgun because the handgun had the capability to accept magazines that exceed the states capacity limit. The handgun did not include any mags that exceed the limit.
So him wanting first time gun owners to get properly trained instead of watching youtube videos is bad? I mean I wouldn't know what you mean by "adding delays", but I recommend training classes to first time gun owners for sure. If you're an FFL and you know you have a newb and you don't recommend some training, you're doing both of you a disservice. ultimately it's your choice (depending on which state you live), but i certainly wouldn't call him "anti 2A" for trying to push training. Most people literally buy their guns and either keep them stored away somewhere or buy them and never train with them, and end up having some sort of accident or unable to effectively use their weapon in a time of need. I generally tell first time gun buyers to try to get to the range and practice at least once a month. shooting is a perishable skill. Also, shooting costs money. Do you complain to the range that they charge you for coming to shoot their or for their services (ie. transfers, etc)? If you're a younger person, (ie 20's), if you haven't known, shooting isn't a cheap hobby. nothing fun is cheap and noting cheap is fun.
i dont live in a ban state (yet), so not sure of your state's policies on handguns or mag capacity, but maybe he's trying to cover his ass for some rule. Again, not really an anti 2A stance IMO.
My state does not allow you to purchase firearms without an ownership ID. That ID can and does take up to 1 year to acquire. It also requires absolutely zero training, and quite simply just poorly organized bureaucracy to run a background check to acquire the ID, and then run another background check to acquire the gun. Our Firearms IDs also don’t let you bypass a 4473, or bypass waiting periods because they’re mandatory for any purchase. They also don’t allow you do carry either open or concealed. Again, I repeat it is absolutely mandatory for ownership and requires no training. Idk how that doesn’t add a delay in your books or restrict a right, but go off about defending shitty FFLs that clearly aren’t defending 2A and are just defending their wallet. If you truly believe 2A should be accessible to everyone, and that the government has no right to create a defacto registry then mandatory firearm IDs for any and all purchases go against 2A, and defending them and anyone that pushes them is also anti 2A. But I’m glad you blindly defend my bootlicker former FFL for a policy you clearly don’t even understand exists since you think it’s even remotely relating to training😂😂😂😂
I had a client of mine when I ran a high end gun store that had a handgun transferred to a store near us. The store owner was a reserve deputy and apparently ran the guys name through some sort of background check and refused to transfer the firearm to him because of a past DUI charge (for which he was acquitted) ended up having to send it back and transfer it to me just to get a gun he was legally allowed to own. Some FFLs are just kind of shitbags.
Doesn’t help when we have people like yourself blindly defending the people quite literally within the industry that are doing harm to our 2nd amendment rights. I’m not asking for every FFL to publicly start criticizing every law involving firearms. I get it you need to protect your business as well. But actually supporting these infringements is a problem. It’s coming from all angles and even if you think you’re in such a free state there’s an unfortunate chance it comes down from the federal level and your free state no longer matters partially as a result of people within this industry supporting this.
As for your blind support of a clearly unconstitutional policy, you’re nearly as bad. Whether it be from a clear lack of knowledge, or if you actually support a defacto firearms registry and indefinite delay on first time purchase, you need to do better. If people in the industry aren’t privy to the issues happening around the country (I don’t need you to be a complete law expert, though you should be knowledgeable as a FFL, but you’re clearly sipping the gun grabber kool aid that Firearms IDs are about training and being responsible and not to create a database of owners and delay ownership), then as I mentioned it’s going to come down from the federal level and you’ll be effected as well.
and yea, i rolled in the comment about having to pay for transfers in there along with the range stuff, cause ya know, it's all the same. transfers in my state range from 20 bucks to 50+ depending on the FFL. generally, FFL's who have high transfer fee's do that knowingly because they actually dont wan to deal with transfers, so they price them high. some people will still pay it though (shop loyalty maybe). And here the UBC is a 4473 and a state form to fill out at time of purchase and that's it. no training requirements to purchase (yet).
Things will never go back to how they were "back in the day" when private sales were a thing and the "gunshow" loophole was going on (although i understand there are some states where private sales without UBC are still legal). The problem is with having more gun owners, it's more people to fuck it up for the rest of us by either being irresponsible with their firearms, or just straight up being criminals or having school shootings that spark bullshit laws getting passed. Kids nowadays dont roll up their sleeves and have fist fights after school...these fuckers grab a gun and first instinct is to shoot someone over something as dumb as a simple argument. no restraint.
and your "create a defacto registry" comment is just dumb and well, honestly very conspiracy theoryish, but then you mentioned the multiple background check thing...
When you buy your firearm and fill out your 4473, you do know that the FFL doesnt send that to the ATF or anything right? It literally sit's in their filing cabinets until the FFL decides to pack up shop and close or has their license terminated/revoked. At those times, the ATF will take the paper 4473's (or digital) and they go to a big old warehouse where they sit and rot in paper boxes until someone comes along and needs to run a trace and it leads to that FFL and they go thru the records, etc.
my state all the info that's required is the buyer info and what type of firearm they are buying (i.e. Pistol, Revolver, Rifle, Shotgun,Other) and not the make/model or SN, just generically what type and quantity. that form can be shredded after 3 years.
thank you for making me feel better about where i live.
When op says firearm licensing you change it to recommending training as if that's the same thing. Wanting Daddy gov to license restrict you harder is shitty for 2a rights and is not the same as telling someone to take worthwhile private sector training.
Your argument seems off base.
I would say that wait times for first time buyers is something that could make sense, you would need exceptions for people who have restraining orders against people showing an immediate need. But I do think it could have an impact on suicides which is a situation in which we know that the more opportunities for intervention the higher chance there is that they don't do it. But once you own one gun adding wait times doesn't make sense. But the wait periods have to be reasonable and there has to be exceptions in place for situations of immediate need, and unfortunately these are things that basically never happen in the laws that get implemented.
Couple days for first time purchase (as a function of the background check for the firearm purchase, not as a function of an entirely separate ownership ID) sure whatever. But up to 1 year delay in just receiving the ownership ID, and then you have to go through yet another background check as a function of submitting 4473 for the actual purchase itself? That’s ridiculous and nobody in their right mind that truly supports the 2nd amendment should ever support that
Yeah the implementation of all of these laws is dogshit, they always start with a shred of an ok idea if implemented perfectly, but get turned into stupid shit.
Unfortunately just because someone sees a business opportunity taking money for transfers doesn’t mean they don’t have the capacity to be a boot licker🤷🏼♀️
He can get paid to check in guns and run background checks all he wants. Still doesn’t mean he isn’t a bootlicker🙄he deserves to get paid for his time. Doesn’t mean he’s pro-2A just because he deserves to get paid
I live in a gun unfriendly state too but back in the day some old-timer FFL's used to just do whatever they wanted and it was great. I'm guessing they've all died or are retired by now, but they were cut from a different cloth than the FFL's we have now. They had no fear and did everything "by the book" when it came to the paper trail but they didn't give a fuck about waiting periods and all of the little gotcha stuff the state police and ATF all seem to care about now (and are seriously cracking down on).
The guy I used to go to was a Nam vet and used to say "the 2nd amendment is my carry permit" and would show his concealed 1911, despite the fact that carrying was illegal in the state entirely at the time. He used to backdate the paperwork to get around the 1-3 day waiting period. He would run the background check, you'd pass, you'd pay, and he would let you walk right out the door with your purchase (totally contrary to state law which required a waiting period of 1 day for long guns and 3 days for handguns).
He has been closed for a long time but man I miss that guy. He did not give a fuck and got away with it for years because his customer base weren't wringing their hands and terrified of the government.
I’ve done a few transfers and dropped off guns for gunsmith work at home based FFLs
It works the same way as your storefront FFL
You go in, show ID, do form 4473, then they call in your background check, you pay and leave
One key is submitting electronically often means they have an electronic log book. ATF inspectors love electronic logbooks because it makes it easy to take copies of the logbook.
There is almost no way it was an FFL. First it would be something they could charge for. Second it’s very easy to do a transfer between FFL so it is completely worth it to not risk your entire careerb
You are going to fill out paperwork. If the guy you described existed, ATF would have shut him down already. If he was on the manufacture website he has FFL. Some folks don't have stores and just run it out of their house.
Sloowwwww down, everyone.
OP, did this guy *actually tell you* he wasn't going to do a 4473? Or did he just not explicitly mention it when you spoke with him on the phone. It seems pretty unlikely that an FFL would just say *fuck it* and go completely rogue like that.
Go meet with him to do the transfer. If at that point he says he's not gonna do a 4473, you can tell him you're not comfortable with that then leave.
He just didn't mention it in our email exchange, and after responding to him to clarify on the 4473, it seems I misunderstood as many here suggested (again, I am new). I updated the OP to this effect.
Assuming EuroOptics did their due diligence the guy is a legit FFL. They should have had a copy of his license prior to shipping it to him. I think you may be misunderstanding something he said, but asking him for a clarification is pretty easy. Just tell him you're kind of new at this and you'd like to know what to expect when you show up, including the paperwork.
Wait, you mean you can't just buy guns off the internet and have them shipped right to your house like I've been led to believe? What's up with that? /sarcasm.
Sounds to me like he normally doesn’t do transfers as he’s not a face to face ffl. Since you have already shipped the item to him and he has it in possession, he’s DOING YOU A FAVOR and doing the transfer for you for $50. Doing a transfer is just that. It’s a transfer process where you fill out a 4473 and if you get a proceed, he’ll let you take possession of the gun. You should thank the guy and be happy he’s doing this. This is why you check the ffl before and make sure they accept transfers.
It’s normal. Plenty of people with FFLs here that don’t have storefronts. Go in, do the form, pay the fee, take your stuff and leave.
No one really says “come in and do the 4473”, it’s usually implied that’s part of the process.
Sounds like you got it cleared up, but I wanted to emphasize there is nothing wrong with doing FFL as a side gig from your home. The process still works the same and the license is just as legit as any other.
Another case where my memory has failed me. I was certain there was a requirement for a business premises that had regular hours open to the public. But you are right, home-bases SOTs are fine.
I had seen home-based NFA dealers in the past (in MA of all places) but they had posted hours so I assumed it was a requirement.
I feel like the guy is probably going to do a 4473 being that he's doing a transfer. Depending on the state, he may have filled out a form for himself and is just going to transfer it to you for a fee (perfectly legal in states that allow transfers between of age adults). I would accept the fee amd transfer. He's got way more to worry about if he, as an FFL, fails to legally transfer the firearm.
I have never ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to a FFL. All of my firearms have been in person buys, and not once was the filling out of a 4473 explicitly stated, they just said hey fill this out so we can run the background check. If they don't ask for you to fill out the 4473 when you get there then walk away, but until you reach that point I wouldn't worry about it
They'll have to do the 4473 form regardless. I wouldn't assume that because the form wasn't mentioned that they wont be using it or going through the NICS system.
I use a home based FFL that is great and is literally 5 minutes away. In fact I prefer that rather than using an actual store. It seems when I was using a store, it just wasn't a priority to them. I've built a great relationship with the FFL & when there is a delay in NICS, I just go home and they call me when it's approved and come back to pick up the firearm. BTW they only charge me $20, so it's best to shop your FFL's.
Use this ATF listing of FFL's. You can check by state. I'd see if your FFL is listed you are GTG. It will download a spreadsheet with the info after you search. Use the Excel choice when you filter.
Edit: The store you bought its from has to have the FFL license on file before they will even ship to them.
[FFL Listing By State](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/listing-federal-firearms-licensees)
Depending on the state, the buyer will do the 4473 and a background check as part of the transfer.
Some states require a background through a state system thats integrated with the FBI NICS, and some states allow the FFL holder to submit direct to NICS.
The 4473 can be hand written or electronic. If electronic, it can be incorporated into the background depending on the software, but if hand written it can be completed electronically, or phone called in. It'll be printed out afterwards and filed with any other documentation (DL copy, etc.) by the FFL.
We have many new purchasers that call in before or just after they purchase and want to know what the "transfer" process consists of. In PA, the State Police run the background check system and it's a seperate stand alone system. Our shop uses Fastbound, an electronic 4473 and Bound Book software system. PA charges us per check run, and that's included in the transfer fee along with overhead time for unboxing, logging the firearm in and contacting the customer.
Ha! This is funny.
I have purchased several guns over the years but I was uncertain about my last one. I've bought in person from a gun store/pawn shop, from a big box store, via private sale, or most commonly online through a dropshipper and FFL.
I recently bought online from a big box retailer and then picked it up in person at a physical location. I wasn't sure how long they would hold it, whether I'd have to pay a transfer fee, etc. Of course, I cleared all that up before I made my purchase by calling the store. But it happens. Feeling uncertain about your first online gun purchase, or first purchase through any new method, is not uncommon at all - especially if you don't have someone to walk you through it.
What did you get?
Plenty of side hustle FFL's. There are guys that will do a transfer out of the trunk of the car, as long your ID is valid and fill out the paperwork properly. You will still do the 4473 and just pay him his transfer fee. It's not illegal if it's not a brick and mortar store front and will typically save you money. Most B&M will charge out the ass for transfer because you didn't buy from them.
I’m a FFL in a not so 2A friendly state, sounds like you assumed that the local FFL wasn’t going to do everything by the book, in my state the background check is nearly $38, the $12 I make for me to do the paperwork and storing your gun for 10 days not to mention my time is nowhere near enough for me or any FFL to take a chance in losing my license, being fined or even going to jail, relax the FFL knows what to do
Thanks all for the answers and commentary. I realize I’m a bit ignorant about this stuff, being new and all, but just wanted to make sure I’m legally compliant and all that. I think I’m all good.
A 4473 doesn't register the firearm to you, it just says you are legally able to purchase it. You can decide against buying the gun after the form is filled out and the call is made
I wouldn't want to deal with it and reject the transfer. I'm pretty sure you have to be the one to fill out the 4473 cause you have to sign it. Also, your driver's license doesn't have your city and state of birth, something required on the 4473.
>Is this legal, common practice?
Absolutely not
>The research I've done suggests this is a huge no-no.
It is
>What do I do if I pick it up, take it to a retail FFL and have them do the background check?
That's also illegal. You can't take possession of it without a 4473 *period*, even to deliver it to another FFL.
>I want the rifle, but I want to make sure I do this legally/by the book
Tell him you want to do it legally and if he refuses, ask him to ship it to another FFL in your area for them to do it.
It doesn’t seem like the FFL is suggesting doing anything illegal. Just seems that like the OP mentioned he’s new and doesn’t know anything. I’ve never had an FFL call or email me and tell me to come fill out the 4473, just that my gun was in the cost of the transfer and to bring in my ID.
Stop it. You're exaggerating the situation and making it worse for someone who is already confused. This is EXACTLY common practice. When he says he'll do the "transfer" for $50, he's talking about the 4473. Nobody says "I'll do the 4473 for $50".
Stop fear mongering you damn fudd.
I have been doing business with just one ffl dealer and they will always call me back when the firearm I ordered is in and I will make an appointment to fill out the forms. Usually just a $30 transfer fee and will then have to wait either two weeks or just pick it up due to the atf being dicks and taking too long.
One of my earliest experiences with transfer was a home based, non-storefront ffl. If that's what he is and it sounds like it, he may end up being one of your best buddies. They usually have more time to talk with you and not rush you outta the store for the next customer
I’m a home based FFL, totally legal and commonplace. He has to have an FFL on file with Europtic before they would ship the gun to him. You should’ve done some research though, $50 is pretty high for a non-brick and mortar, at least in my area.
I have had bought guns off gun broker they get shipped to FFL I have used 2 different ones . They call to let you know it is in .i go over to their location. One was storefront the other was a home FFL with my ID I then fill out 4473 they call it in or on a computer. Not 100% sure on that because they disappear into a different room and then come back with the confirmation number. Then I take the fire arm home that day .
He was would get fucked so hard and fast by the ATF if he accepted an FFL transfer for you from a different FFL and then decided to just “make the paper trail disappear” at *his address*
You couldn’t pay someone with an FFL to do that, even if you had a lot of bribe money.
What state are you in? And all you need to have it done by the book is to have a 4473 filled out and pass the background check, which can’t be done with only a drivers license but can be done online pretty easily
A 4473 is required to be filled out and signed in ink at the premises unless the FFL has a variance for keeping electronic records
You must also show your ID in person to the FFL
The ATF is a redundant and backwards organization, so just take your gun and leave sir. The difference between you buying the rifle you want legally and illegally is almost inseparable if it weren't for the paperwork and bureaucracy. If you fucked up they'll likely not do shit, unless you use it in criminal activity. The atf is apart of American gun culture and everyone old enough to remember Waco knows that at best they are redundant and useless (not defending Caresh) but they had an easy way out and chose to fight religious maniacs who literally had an argument that could be made in court. Our police are shoot-em-ups. Look up the operation they were apart of under Obama and who the weapons ending up with. Just don't give em a reason. They'll justify their existence to bust a dude who wants a rare or antique firearm, just to sell or disappear weapons to cartels. I think you'll be fine as long as you don't have nefarious intentions. But be careful.
OP keep all records of what this FFL saying to you. This guy is violating multiple gun laws if he transferred it to you. Not just lose his license issues but prison time.
Hasn't transferred it yet, and all my communications have been over email. I posted here first because I wanted to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or overreacting (and it sounds like I was right to be suspicious).
You do seem to be misunderstanding the FFL. It sounds to me like he is going to have you fill out the paperwork when you get there. That’s why he needs you DL and his charge for doing the transfer is $50.
He's going to have you fill out the correct paperwork. He didn't go through the trouble to get his FFL, only to set up shady deals through email.
When he said "I'll do the transfer for $50", the transfer he's talking about is the legal process to transfer you the firearm. Don't listen to the idiots here telling you that you should ask him about an ATF visit, and tell him to ship it to another FFL if he doesn't wanna go-to jail, cause that's a good way to not get your rifle and deal with a headache.
You go pick up your rifle. You do the background check. You get your rifle. If he tries to give you the rifle WITHOUT you filling out a form 4473, THEN you call the cops.
He's going to do the transfer the correct way. If he's doing shady deals, they're not with people picking up guns that were shipped for transfer, that already have a TON of paper trail, to people he doesn't know.
Can you screencap emails and share them here? You’re missing something. Any/All FFL’s have an A&D book as they’re required to log acquisitions(receiving) and dispositions (transferring). Since your an individual, the 4473 needs to accompany/link back to the line in the A&D book about your firearm.
If this firearm is ever used in a crime. The ATF runs a trace on it. They call manufacturer and say “who’d you sell this to” and they have 24 hours to respond and send records, then they go on down the line from wholesalers to retailer until it gets to the 4473 recipient.
TLDR: You’re saying something dumb and we need actual info to give you advice. Screenshot, sanitize and share.
I'm just letting you know you may not be the first person that they have done this with. And you want evidence that you did not take the firearm if they get investigated for this.
He’s going to run a 4473 when you pick up, he’s just telling you to bring $50 and your driver license because that’s what he needs to run the 4473.
Yeah, this is definitely what is happening. I've never had an FFL call and say "your gun is here, you must fill out the 4473". It's pretty much an implied task, no way home boy with the FFL is letting people walk out without filling one out.
I have but I live in a not so gun friendly state with some less than 2A friendly FFLs so sometimes they go the extra mile to exaggerate the legal process
I would think they were regarded if they specifically said all that.
"with some less than 2A friendly FFLs" Please elaborate. I would love to hear your thoughts on what makes an FFL not "2A" friendly.
One of my former FFLs I dealt with is vehemently in favor of Firearm licensing policies that cost money to exercise your rights and add insane delays to purchases for first time buyers. A friend of mine that I suggested to use him (suggestion came before my poor interaction, friends purchase was after) said he tried to refuse transfer on a handgun because the handgun had the capability to accept magazines that exceed the states capacity limit. The handgun did not include any mags that exceed the limit.
So him wanting first time gun owners to get properly trained instead of watching youtube videos is bad? I mean I wouldn't know what you mean by "adding delays", but I recommend training classes to first time gun owners for sure. If you're an FFL and you know you have a newb and you don't recommend some training, you're doing both of you a disservice. ultimately it's your choice (depending on which state you live), but i certainly wouldn't call him "anti 2A" for trying to push training. Most people literally buy their guns and either keep them stored away somewhere or buy them and never train with them, and end up having some sort of accident or unable to effectively use their weapon in a time of need. I generally tell first time gun buyers to try to get to the range and practice at least once a month. shooting is a perishable skill. Also, shooting costs money. Do you complain to the range that they charge you for coming to shoot their or for their services (ie. transfers, etc)? If you're a younger person, (ie 20's), if you haven't known, shooting isn't a cheap hobby. nothing fun is cheap and noting cheap is fun. i dont live in a ban state (yet), so not sure of your state's policies on handguns or mag capacity, but maybe he's trying to cover his ass for some rule. Again, not really an anti 2A stance IMO.
My state does not allow you to purchase firearms without an ownership ID. That ID can and does take up to 1 year to acquire. It also requires absolutely zero training, and quite simply just poorly organized bureaucracy to run a background check to acquire the ID, and then run another background check to acquire the gun. Our Firearms IDs also don’t let you bypass a 4473, or bypass waiting periods because they’re mandatory for any purchase. They also don’t allow you do carry either open or concealed. Again, I repeat it is absolutely mandatory for ownership and requires no training. Idk how that doesn’t add a delay in your books or restrict a right, but go off about defending shitty FFLs that clearly aren’t defending 2A and are just defending their wallet. If you truly believe 2A should be accessible to everyone, and that the government has no right to create a defacto registry then mandatory firearm IDs for any and all purchases go against 2A, and defending them and anyone that pushes them is also anti 2A. But I’m glad you blindly defend my bootlicker former FFL for a policy you clearly don’t even understand exists since you think it’s even remotely relating to training😂😂😂😂
I had a client of mine when I ran a high end gun store that had a handgun transferred to a store near us. The store owner was a reserve deputy and apparently ran the guys name through some sort of background check and refused to transfer the firearm to him because of a past DUI charge (for which he was acquitted) ended up having to send it back and transfer it to me just to get a gun he was legally allowed to own. Some FFLs are just kind of shitbags.
only advice i can give you is: Move to a "free" state.
Doesn’t help when we have people like yourself blindly defending the people quite literally within the industry that are doing harm to our 2nd amendment rights. I’m not asking for every FFL to publicly start criticizing every law involving firearms. I get it you need to protect your business as well. But actually supporting these infringements is a problem. It’s coming from all angles and even if you think you’re in such a free state there’s an unfortunate chance it comes down from the federal level and your free state no longer matters partially as a result of people within this industry supporting this. As for your blind support of a clearly unconstitutional policy, you’re nearly as bad. Whether it be from a clear lack of knowledge, or if you actually support a defacto firearms registry and indefinite delay on first time purchase, you need to do better. If people in the industry aren’t privy to the issues happening around the country (I don’t need you to be a complete law expert, though you should be knowledgeable as a FFL, but you’re clearly sipping the gun grabber kool aid that Firearms IDs are about training and being responsible and not to create a database of owners and delay ownership), then as I mentioned it’s going to come down from the federal level and you’ll be effected as well.
you must be a well known constitutional youtube lawyer eh?
and yea, i rolled in the comment about having to pay for transfers in there along with the range stuff, cause ya know, it's all the same. transfers in my state range from 20 bucks to 50+ depending on the FFL. generally, FFL's who have high transfer fee's do that knowingly because they actually dont wan to deal with transfers, so they price them high. some people will still pay it though (shop loyalty maybe). And here the UBC is a 4473 and a state form to fill out at time of purchase and that's it. no training requirements to purchase (yet). Things will never go back to how they were "back in the day" when private sales were a thing and the "gunshow" loophole was going on (although i understand there are some states where private sales without UBC are still legal). The problem is with having more gun owners, it's more people to fuck it up for the rest of us by either being irresponsible with their firearms, or just straight up being criminals or having school shootings that spark bullshit laws getting passed. Kids nowadays dont roll up their sleeves and have fist fights after school...these fuckers grab a gun and first instinct is to shoot someone over something as dumb as a simple argument. no restraint. and your "create a defacto registry" comment is just dumb and well, honestly very conspiracy theoryish, but then you mentioned the multiple background check thing... When you buy your firearm and fill out your 4473, you do know that the FFL doesnt send that to the ATF or anything right? It literally sit's in their filing cabinets until the FFL decides to pack up shop and close or has their license terminated/revoked. At those times, the ATF will take the paper 4473's (or digital) and they go to a big old warehouse where they sit and rot in paper boxes until someone comes along and needs to run a trace and it leads to that FFL and they go thru the records, etc. my state all the info that's required is the buyer info and what type of firearm they are buying (i.e. Pistol, Revolver, Rifle, Shotgun,Other) and not the make/model or SN, just generically what type and quantity. that form can be shredded after 3 years. thank you for making me feel better about where i live.
When op says firearm licensing you change it to recommending training as if that's the same thing. Wanting Daddy gov to license restrict you harder is shitty for 2a rights and is not the same as telling someone to take worthwhile private sector training. Your argument seems off base.
I would say that wait times for first time buyers is something that could make sense, you would need exceptions for people who have restraining orders against people showing an immediate need. But I do think it could have an impact on suicides which is a situation in which we know that the more opportunities for intervention the higher chance there is that they don't do it. But once you own one gun adding wait times doesn't make sense. But the wait periods have to be reasonable and there has to be exceptions in place for situations of immediate need, and unfortunately these are things that basically never happen in the laws that get implemented.
Couple days for first time purchase (as a function of the background check for the firearm purchase, not as a function of an entirely separate ownership ID) sure whatever. But up to 1 year delay in just receiving the ownership ID, and then you have to go through yet another background check as a function of submitting 4473 for the actual purchase itself? That’s ridiculous and nobody in their right mind that truly supports the 2nd amendment should ever support that
Yeah the implementation of all of these laws is dogshit, they always start with a shred of an ok idea if implemented perfectly, but get turned into stupid shit.
Unfortunately just because someone sees a business opportunity taking money for transfers doesn’t mean they don’t have the capacity to be a boot licker🤷🏼♀️
I assume you have a job and you enjoy being paid for time spent working, right?
He can get paid to check in guns and run background checks all he wants. Still doesn’t mean he isn’t a bootlicker🙄he deserves to get paid for his time. Doesn’t mean he’s pro-2A just because he deserves to get paid
I live in a gun unfriendly state too but back in the day some old-timer FFL's used to just do whatever they wanted and it was great. I'm guessing they've all died or are retired by now, but they were cut from a different cloth than the FFL's we have now. They had no fear and did everything "by the book" when it came to the paper trail but they didn't give a fuck about waiting periods and all of the little gotcha stuff the state police and ATF all seem to care about now (and are seriously cracking down on). The guy I used to go to was a Nam vet and used to say "the 2nd amendment is my carry permit" and would show his concealed 1911, despite the fact that carrying was illegal in the state entirely at the time. He used to backdate the paperwork to get around the 1-3 day waiting period. He would run the background check, you'd pass, you'd pay, and he would let you walk right out the door with your purchase (totally contrary to state law which required a waiting period of 1 day for long guns and 3 days for handguns). He has been closed for a long time but man I miss that guy. He did not give a fuck and got away with it for years because his customer base weren't wringing their hands and terrified of the government.
Yea to me it sounds like OP is semi taking a leap here, but good on him for asking.
This is the correct answer.
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That's also incredibly illegal to do, that FFL owner would be in jail for life if the atf found out they were running checks that way
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Is he filling out the form for you beforehand? How is he submitting the info before you get there to actually do the paperwork?
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That's still no bueno. He had better not get caught doing that.
Because the actual transferee of the firearm didn't fill it out.
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Yes, but when he calls it in, it's with a 4473 the actual transferee (you) didn't fill out.
Never post this online. Gonna get your ffl out of business
This is entirely fucked up. You can't put in a background check without a completed 4473. This is literally insanity.
I’ve done a few transfers and dropped off guns for gunsmith work at home based FFLs It works the same way as your storefront FFL You go in, show ID, do form 4473, then they call in your background check, you pay and leave
I haven’t seen an FFL call in for years. All of mine are doing the approval electronically now.
Some shops I’ve been to recently use the telephone and others use the internet portal Either way works
I’ve seen a shop call in when the system was down online. That way they can get a response quicker than waiting for it to come back online.
I have been to gun shows where they call in on the spot. This was like 12 years ago
lol i guess my local shops are all old fashioned, every FFL in my county calls.
One key is submitting electronically often means they have an electronic log book. ATF inspectors love electronic logbooks because it makes it easy to take copies of the logbook.
Yeah there is no world where someone with FFL is going to on purpose do gun crimes with a stranger.
This is an underrated comment. They are in the business of making money not going to jail
They could definitely make a lot of money very quickly. Which is good, because they wouldn’t be doing it for long.
But think of the profit they could make selling to other prisoners. It's a totally untapped market ripe for the picking!
L O L I've seen some businesses that did not care about making money.
I bought AR lower on GB and the seller sent straight to my house I don’t know remember if he was a ffl holder, it was a decade or so ago
There is almost no way it was an FFL. First it would be something they could charge for. Second it’s very easy to do a transfer between FFL so it is completely worth it to not risk your entire careerb
> there is no world where someone with FFL is going to on purpose do gun crimes unless they hate their dog
You are going to fill out paperwork. If the guy you described existed, ATF would have shut him down already. If he was on the manufacture website he has FFL. Some folks don't have stores and just run it out of their house.
Sloowwwww down, everyone. OP, did this guy *actually tell you* he wasn't going to do a 4473? Or did he just not explicitly mention it when you spoke with him on the phone. It seems pretty unlikely that an FFL would just say *fuck it* and go completely rogue like that. Go meet with him to do the transfer. If at that point he says he's not gonna do a 4473, you can tell him you're not comfortable with that then leave.
He just didn't mention it in our email exchange, and after responding to him to clarify on the 4473, it seems I misunderstood as many here suggested (again, I am new). I updated the OP to this effect.
Assuming EuroOptics did their due diligence the guy is a legit FFL. They should have had a copy of his license prior to shipping it to him. I think you may be misunderstanding something he said, but asking him for a clarification is pretty easy. Just tell him you're kind of new at this and you'd like to know what to expect when you show up, including the paperwork.
Correct they would not ship to someone with out an ffl
Wait, you mean you can't just buy guns off the internet and have them shipped right to your house like I've been led to believe? What's up with that? /sarcasm.
I love that you spelled out the /s for this one 😂
I mean, we can do that in Canada…. Just have the added inconvenience of a bunch of other ridiculous laws.
Sounds to me like he normally doesn’t do transfers as he’s not a face to face ffl. Since you have already shipped the item to him and he has it in possession, he’s DOING YOU A FAVOR and doing the transfer for you for $50. Doing a transfer is just that. It’s a transfer process where you fill out a 4473 and if you get a proceed, he’ll let you take possession of the gun. You should thank the guy and be happy he’s doing this. This is why you check the ffl before and make sure they accept transfers.
It’s normal. Plenty of people with FFLs here that don’t have storefronts. Go in, do the form, pay the fee, take your stuff and leave. No one really says “come in and do the 4473”, it’s usually implied that’s part of the process.
Sounds like you got it cleared up, but I wanted to emphasize there is nothing wrong with doing FFL as a side gig from your home. The process still works the same and the license is just as legit as any other.
The dealer couldn’t have shipped to him if he didn’t have a valid FFL. Storefront is not required by law unless the dealer sells NFA weapons.
> Storefront is not required by law unless the dealer sells NFA weapons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPD5q6DC43M
You can 100% get an SOT and deal in NFA weapons as a home based FFL.
Another case where my memory has failed me. I was certain there was a requirement for a business premises that had regular hours open to the public. But you are right, home-bases SOTs are fine. I had seen home-based NFA dealers in the past (in MA of all places) but they had posted hours so I assumed it was a requirement.
I go to a home based FFL all the time for gunsmith work and he sells suppressors
Sounds like you got your answer. Welcome to the gun world.
I feel like the guy is probably going to do a 4473 being that he's doing a transfer. Depending on the state, he may have filled out a form for himself and is just going to transfer it to you for a fee (perfectly legal in states that allow transfers between of age adults). I would accept the fee amd transfer. He's got way more to worry about if he, as an FFL, fails to legally transfer the firearm.
All normal. Go have fun.
Sounds like a good ffl
I have never ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to a FFL. All of my firearms have been in person buys, and not once was the filling out of a 4473 explicitly stated, they just said hey fill this out so we can run the background check. If they don't ask for you to fill out the 4473 when you get there then walk away, but until you reach that point I wouldn't worry about it
They'll have to do the 4473 form regardless. I wouldn't assume that because the form wasn't mentioned that they wont be using it or going through the NICS system. I use a home based FFL that is great and is literally 5 minutes away. In fact I prefer that rather than using an actual store. It seems when I was using a store, it just wasn't a priority to them. I've built a great relationship with the FFL & when there is a delay in NICS, I just go home and they call me when it's approved and come back to pick up the firearm. BTW they only charge me $20, so it's best to shop your FFL's. Use this ATF listing of FFL's. You can check by state. I'd see if your FFL is listed you are GTG. It will download a spreadsheet with the info after you search. Use the Excel choice when you filter. Edit: The store you bought its from has to have the FFL license on file before they will even ship to them. [FFL Listing By State](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/listing-federal-firearms-licensees)
Depending on the state, the buyer will do the 4473 and a background check as part of the transfer. Some states require a background through a state system thats integrated with the FBI NICS, and some states allow the FFL holder to submit direct to NICS. The 4473 can be hand written or electronic. If electronic, it can be incorporated into the background depending on the software, but if hand written it can be completed electronically, or phone called in. It'll be printed out afterwards and filed with any other documentation (DL copy, etc.) by the FFL. We have many new purchasers that call in before or just after they purchase and want to know what the "transfer" process consists of. In PA, the State Police run the background check system and it's a seperate stand alone system. Our shop uses Fastbound, an electronic 4473 and Bound Book software system. PA charges us per check run, and that's included in the transfer fee along with overhead time for unboxing, logging the firearm in and contacting the customer.
Ha! This is funny. I have purchased several guns over the years but I was uncertain about my last one. I've bought in person from a gun store/pawn shop, from a big box store, via private sale, or most commonly online through a dropshipper and FFL. I recently bought online from a big box retailer and then picked it up in person at a physical location. I wasn't sure how long they would hold it, whether I'd have to pay a transfer fee, etc. Of course, I cleared all that up before I made my purchase by calling the store. But it happens. Feeling uncertain about your first online gun purchase, or first purchase through any new method, is not uncommon at all - especially if you don't have someone to walk you through it. What did you get?
That’s 100% legal.
Plenty of side hustle FFL's. There are guys that will do a transfer out of the trunk of the car, as long your ID is valid and fill out the paperwork properly. You will still do the 4473 and just pay him his transfer fee. It's not illegal if it's not a brick and mortar store front and will typically save you money. Most B&M will charge out the ass for transfer because you didn't buy from them.
I’m a FFL in a not so 2A friendly state, sounds like you assumed that the local FFL wasn’t going to do everything by the book, in my state the background check is nearly $38, the $12 I make for me to do the paperwork and storing your gun for 10 days not to mention my time is nowhere near enough for me or any FFL to take a chance in losing my license, being fined or even going to jail, relax the FFL knows what to do
🖕🏼 4473 👻
Thanks all for the answers and commentary. I realize I’m a bit ignorant about this stuff, being new and all, but just wanted to make sure I’m legally compliant and all that. I think I’m all good.
How did it work out?
A 4473 doesn't register the firearm to you, it just says you are legally able to purchase it. You can decide against buying the gun after the form is filled out and the call is made
I wouldn't want to deal with it and reject the transfer. I'm pretty sure you have to be the one to fill out the 4473 cause you have to sign it. Also, your driver's license doesn't have your city and state of birth, something required on the 4473.
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Well that’s a great idea to out him on the internet 😂
>Is this legal, common practice? Absolutely not >The research I've done suggests this is a huge no-no. It is >What do I do if I pick it up, take it to a retail FFL and have them do the background check? That's also illegal. You can't take possession of it without a 4473 *period*, even to deliver it to another FFL. >I want the rifle, but I want to make sure I do this legally/by the book Tell him you want to do it legally and if he refuses, ask him to ship it to another FFL in your area for them to do it.
It doesn’t seem like the FFL is suggesting doing anything illegal. Just seems that like the OP mentioned he’s new and doesn’t know anything. I’ve never had an FFL call or email me and tell me to come fill out the 4473, just that my gun was in the cost of the transfer and to bring in my ID.
Stop it. You're exaggerating the situation and making it worse for someone who is already confused. This is EXACTLY common practice. When he says he'll do the "transfer" for $50, he's talking about the 4473. Nobody says "I'll do the 4473 for $50". Stop fear mongering you damn fudd.
Especially now that you posted about it lol.
I have been doing business with just one ffl dealer and they will always call me back when the firearm I ordered is in and I will make an appointment to fill out the forms. Usually just a $30 transfer fee and will then have to wait either two weeks or just pick it up due to the atf being dicks and taking too long.
One of my earliest experiences with transfer was a home based, non-storefront ffl. If that's what he is and it sounds like it, he may end up being one of your best buddies. They usually have more time to talk with you and not rush you outta the store for the next customer
Just a FYI, there is no registration with firearms in CO.... or indeed most states.
I’m a home based FFL, totally legal and commonplace. He has to have an FFL on file with Europtic before they would ship the gun to him. You should’ve done some research though, $50 is pretty high for a non-brick and mortar, at least in my area.
I have had bought guns off gun broker they get shipped to FFL I have used 2 different ones . They call to let you know it is in .i go over to their location. One was storefront the other was a home FFL with my ID I then fill out 4473 they call it in or on a computer. Not 100% sure on that because they disappear into a different room and then come back with the confirmation number. Then I take the fire arm home that day .
You didn’t talk to the FFL first???
You should just go to a local gun store to be safe.Too much Identity fraud nowadays.
He was would get fucked so hard and fast by the ATF if he accepted an FFL transfer for you from a different FFL and then decided to just “make the paper trail disappear” at *his address* You couldn’t pay someone with an FFL to do that, even if you had a lot of bribe money.
50? ffs that's steep
Chill, homie. Pay the man his money.
Always call before you ship
They wouldn’t of shipped it there if it wasn’t a registered ffl buisness
What state are you in? And all you need to have it done by the book is to have a 4473 filled out and pass the background check, which can’t be done with only a drivers license but can be done online pretty easily
A 4473 is required to be filled out and signed in ink at the premises unless the FFL has a variance for keeping electronic records You must also show your ID in person to the FFL
The ATF is a redundant and backwards organization, so just take your gun and leave sir. The difference between you buying the rifle you want legally and illegally is almost inseparable if it weren't for the paperwork and bureaucracy. If you fucked up they'll likely not do shit, unless you use it in criminal activity. The atf is apart of American gun culture and everyone old enough to remember Waco knows that at best they are redundant and useless (not defending Caresh) but they had an easy way out and chose to fight religious maniacs who literally had an argument that could be made in court. Our police are shoot-em-ups. Look up the operation they were apart of under Obama and who the weapons ending up with. Just don't give em a reason. They'll justify their existence to bust a dude who wants a rare or antique firearm, just to sell or disappear weapons to cartels. I think you'll be fine as long as you don't have nefarious intentions. But be careful.
OP keep all records of what this FFL saying to you. This guy is violating multiple gun laws if he transferred it to you. Not just lose his license issues but prison time.
You and OP should go work on your Olympic level long jumps. Might medal in it!
Hasn't transferred it yet, and all my communications have been over email. I posted here first because I wanted to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or overreacting (and it sounds like I was right to be suspicious).
You do seem to be misunderstanding the FFL. It sounds to me like he is going to have you fill out the paperwork when you get there. That’s why he needs you DL and his charge for doing the transfer is $50.
He's going to have you fill out the correct paperwork. He didn't go through the trouble to get his FFL, only to set up shady deals through email. When he said "I'll do the transfer for $50", the transfer he's talking about is the legal process to transfer you the firearm. Don't listen to the idiots here telling you that you should ask him about an ATF visit, and tell him to ship it to another FFL if he doesn't wanna go-to jail, cause that's a good way to not get your rifle and deal with a headache. You go pick up your rifle. You do the background check. You get your rifle. If he tries to give you the rifle WITHOUT you filling out a form 4473, THEN you call the cops. He's going to do the transfer the correct way. If he's doing shady deals, they're not with people picking up guns that were shipped for transfer, that already have a TON of paper trail, to people he doesn't know.
Can you screencap emails and share them here? You’re missing something. Any/All FFL’s have an A&D book as they’re required to log acquisitions(receiving) and dispositions (transferring). Since your an individual, the 4473 needs to accompany/link back to the line in the A&D book about your firearm. If this firearm is ever used in a crime. The ATF runs a trace on it. They call manufacturer and say “who’d you sell this to” and they have 24 hours to respond and send records, then they go on down the line from wholesalers to retailer until it gets to the 4473 recipient. TLDR: You’re saying something dumb and we need actual info to give you advice. Screenshot, sanitize and share.
No FFL is gonna tell you that you need to fill out a 4473. It is something so common place that they wont even mention it.
I'm just letting you know you may not be the first person that they have done this with. And you want evidence that you did not take the firearm if they get investigated for this.
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That is not at all what is happening here.