Cool result mate. i have never heard of kurdish jews before. I would also love to see more obscure jewish groups like chinese jews, Indian jews and karaite jews to post their DNA here. If you have such people in Israel, encourage them to take such results and post them here.
I have friends from the 2 latter groups but that'd be weird to ask them, although I know for a fact that there had been ancestry research about a number of different Indian Jewish communities and of Egyptian Karaites. I believe that Chinese Jews of the 20th century were simple Ashkenazi migrants.
i mean it would obviously be weird to ask them at face value. but just letting them that there is such a communty on reddit willing to know their genetic profile wont come off as bad i guess.
If at all curious about Kurdish Jews, I highly recommend the novel “My Father’s Paradise” by Ariel Sabar. Very moving depiction of Jewish life in Kurdistan and of the Mizrahi immigrant experience in Israel and the US.
Any country has had Jews in it at some point. It’s kind of an on going joke that as a Jew/Israeli you can go anywhere in the world and you’ll meet other Jews or Israelis there despite only being 16 million worldwide
Assyrians were the enemies of the Jews lol. If your an “Assyrian Jew” something has clearly gone wrong lol. Jonah would have vommited if he ever heard of such a thing lol.
Look there should be an Assyria. I know what some of my ancestors have done to you guys was a crime. I would like to an assyria built and of course it’s necessary for your existence and future. How one can be built without the destruction of my own people, I dont know.
Your autonomous zone your asking for isnt alot. But i know in future some of you guys may want to take Erbil lol etc and do some sort of Israel on us lol.
It's nothing to do with heritage they're Mizrahi Jews and they lived beside Kurds for quite a while we didn't go as far as assimilate them and get rid of their language what I find funny though is you Assyrians claiming everyone remotely Aramaic and if its got anything to do with us the kurds you bash us using your keyboard warrior Hivemind.
It's like calling someone a polish Jew they're not ethnically polish but they have slightly mixed with them while in reality they're Ashkenazis, why do you guys always have to search galaxies though to start arguments with us kurds when the Arabs and Turks also attacked yall why must you blame us for something our ancestors did generations ago?
I don’t see how them speaking aramaic makes them assyrian when the assyrians themselves adopted the language. They even speak a seperate dialect.
Also them being genetically related to assyrian doesn’t mean anything because all jewish populations are related to assyrian people. By that logic All jews would be assyrian.
Look at his comment bro, the Gypsies are trying to steal everything, now they are hurrians or mittanis 😂 they are trying so hard to claim ancestral homeland to Mesopotamia, but they are donkey squatters who circumcise their own daughters who brought their disgusting culture and language to Mesopotamia, take your incest and donkey raping culture away from there
13 He will stretch out his hand against the north
and destroy Assyria,
leaving Nineveh utterly desolate
and dry as the desert.
14 Flocks and herds will lie down there,
creatures of every kind.
The desert owl and the screech owl
will roost on her columns.
Their hooting will echo through the windows,
rubble will fill the doorways,
the beams of cedar will be exposed.
15 This is the city of revelry
that lived in safety.
She said to herself,
“I am the one! And there is none besides me.”
What a ruin she has become,
a lair for wild beasts!
All who pass by her scoff
and shake their fists. Zephaniah Chapter 2.
We don't claim Mitanni and Hurrians but we know we've absorbed them into our population lots of our genetics and the Armenians have quite a lot of Hurrian cause they were absorbed into our population same could be said for Assyrians aswell
or using a hate speech slur ( lower case " gypsies" in a perforjative sense) of one genocided group ( Roma/Sinto aka " Gypsies") towards an indigenous group of thh Middle East who also experienced a genocide under a ethnosupremacist pan-Turanist supremeacist regime Young Turks. Oh, wait. That tracks for them it appears.
These are the results of my grandma, a Kurdish (Sephardic) Jew from a small Jewish community from Azerbaijan and Urmia (Iran) called Nash Didan. Her mother and sister were killed and her father was taken by the soviets to a labor camp. She and her brother fled pogroms and antisemitism as kids until they were rescued by The Jewish Agency and were brought to Israel
That is tragic backstory. What a wonderful triumph on her part...
She should really write an autobiography or dictate one.
I had no that Urmia was in Azerbaijan.
I appreciate your kind words. Sadly she passed away during Covid…
When I found this r/ I had to dig up the ancestry test I made her do a couple years back.
We do have a lot of recordings of her telling the story. Perhaps I could put them into writing myself.
Btw, Urmia is in Iran, but they share a border. The Nash Didan community was spread in the area, mostly around Baku and Urmia
I am sorry she passed, she had such a fascinating story and you definitely should definitely publish something based on her recordings.
What year was she born?
Since it seemed she survived both Soviet deportations and went to Israel whilst still a child.
Was your grandmother Aramaic speaking?
Was she able to have a career or university education?
She was born 1941, went to Israel at 1951. She and my grandpa (also Nash Didan, although a slightly different story, he passed before her) used to speak to each other in Lishan Didan, AKA the Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia. She was a stay-at-home mom, never worked or got education. Only spoke Lishan Didan, Hebrew and a little bit of Russian as she hadn’t practiced her Russian for decades
All im gonna say is look at the “Kurdish jews” dna and see for urself. I mean u just heard the guy said she spoke lishana didan which means our tongue in assyrian. There are videos of them saying they are assyrian jews that were mislabled as kurdish jews.
Assyrian Jew Kurdish Jew they're all made up terms in the end they're their own people they're Jewish not Assyrian and neither are they Kurd but their "nationality" can be Kurd or Assyrian but most of them have identified as Kurd Jews in ethnically they're Mizrahi
Thanks for sharing. In that case, I think having an upper Mesopotamian sample in the model would be more accurate than a Caucasian sample. I think the results should be roughly 50/50 Levantine/Upper Mesopotamian
Nice, I’m half nash didan on my mother’s side, it’s nice to see other nash didan online considering we aren’t a lot
Also, it’s quite sad that Lishan Didan is dying out…
Wait, Sephardic Jew from Azerbaijan? I’m from Azerbaijan and I’m aware of our Mountain Jew community, but I didn’t know they’re classified as Sephardic, or are you referring to a different community within Azerbaijan?
Hmm I am actually unsure. In my bar mitzva I was classified as Sephardic. I am not entirely sure if way a lineage based classification or just a religious one. I actually think it’s just a religious classification in my case because there is no clear classification for us, but I’m not sure. I’ll need to ask around
Mizrachi for sure I am from Azerbaijan My 4 cousins are half Ashkenazi Jews half Mountain Jews I have lots of relatives half/half and some even half Georgian Jews.
Ashkenazi Jews in Azerbaijan were majority before 1991 Lots of them came with Rothsheld and Nobel brothers to develop oil industry in Azerbaijan in the end of 19 century
>She and her brother fled pogroms and antisemitism as kids until they were rescued by The Jewish Agency and were brought to Israel
Thank you for sharing a bit of her story.
Eastern Turkey, northern Syria/Iraq and western Iran. Kurds are a people [without a nation](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Fplace%2FKurdistan&psig=AOvVaw1AvMOOYdQ6qfoVkKFMK8wu&ust=1709280253776000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCKi0x6mL0IQDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE). They fight Turkish and Iranian influence and aspire to have their own nation someday. They are allied with Israel and the West.
The Jews from kurdish background in Israel evacuated from Iraq during Operation Ezra and Nehemiah in the early 1950, there is over 200K Jews from kurdistani origins in Israel now, There are also many Kurdish clans who came to Palestine (like Hebron) at post-Ayyubid periods, especially under the Ottomans. I think we can say their numbers can reach to over 500K in the west bank only
Thanks for sharing your grandmother's results.
I find it disheartening how people seem fall into racial purity thinking when it comes to this conflict. This goes for both sides. Whichever side is more right will not be determined by who has more Iron Age DNA. Counting DNA strands leads us all down a dangerous road.
Truly. Some people who normally seem like they have a good head on their shoulders are suddenly calling for the expulsion of natural-born citizens due to having the “wrong” skin color. Real slippery slope right there.
I also see people saying that Palestinians were never connected to the land and therefore Jews had some right over it. This conflict wouldn't be any different morally if Palestinians primarily descended from Peninsular Arabs.
So many people counting Canaanite DNA. The logical consequences of Canaanite DNA being a moral arbiter is using supremacist logic to keep Canaanite DNA high.
Respectfully, I don’t think Jews would be worried about “proving” their Canaanite/Levantine origin if they weren’t the subject of so many false conspiracies and accusations of being “European settler colonialists” or Khazars or whatever other Jew-hate flavor of the month narrative is going around. There are long standing and widespread efforts to enact Jewish cultural erasure and deny Jewish indigeneity that it’s not surprising we get a little defensive about it.
Yes, there are those on “the other side” who say things like “there’s no such thing as a Palestinian that was invented in the 1960s” but that line of thinking is primarily about nationalism, not indigeneity. They are usually along the lines of “Palestinians are no different than Jordanians/Lebanese/Egyptians”, ie it takes the form of a denial of there being a distinct national identity/ethnicity separate from that of their neighbors.
To be clear I don’t think the latter is helpful, I’m not endorsing that stance and IMO recognition of shared suffering and shared indigeneity is critical. That said, as with many “both sides” in this difficult conflict the sides are quite asymmetric.
Actions that would have been immoral with no genetic ties don't become moral with genetic ties.
People with ancient partly Canaanite DNA but ancestry who went to another region 20 great grandparents back doesn't have more right to live on the land than descendants of more recent arrivals.
Both Jews and Palestinians talking about their Canaanite DNA carries the assumption that DNA=land rights. Where does that leave Jewish groups that primarily descend from converts or more recent immigrants to the region?
I believe that both sides deserve to live in the land with dignity because they are there today. Removing the other would be a humanitarian calamity.
The situation American Indians face is not the same as the one Palestinians do. Not to say things are stellar for Indians mind you, but thats just the standard bullshit minorities in the US deal with.
This is where I get confused, are the ancient Israelites just one group of Canaanites who conquered another group of Canaanites or is something else going on here?
tried to find credible sources:
According to Britannica, “Late Bronze to the Early Iron Age—probably about 1250 BCE—the Israelites entered Canaan, settling at first in the hill country and in the south. The Israelites’ infiltration was opposed by the Canaanites, who continued to hold the stronger cities of the region..”
and “The Israelites occupied and conquered Palestine, or Canaan, beginning in the late 2nd millennium BCE, or perhaps earlier; and the Bible justifies such occupation by identifying Canaan with the Promised Land, the land promised to the Israelites by God.”
source - https://www.britannica.com/place/Canaan-historical-region-Middle-East
According to the National Center for Biotechnology Information, “Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times.”
source - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/#:~:text=Archaeologic%20and%20genetic%20data%20support,but%20not%20in%20genetic%2C%20differences.
I guess you are getting downvoted because the Teqiyya bots hate to see a proof their anti semitic theories are wrong. Another indigenous Jew back in their ancestral land.
היסטורית משפחתית מעניינת מאוד אחי 🙏
I would say them the same thing the Jews told them: you have a right of your own to the land. You will have a country and we will have our own and we will live in peace.
But the Palestinians said “we want to throw you all to the sea” and opened a genocidal war /intifada with exploding busses [depends which peace deal you want to talk about ], October 7th genocide and the list goes on.
No one ever told them they can’t have their own country
This is a great example of someone trying to water down the definition of genocide by using it as a description for Palestinians fighting back against their oppressors.
You are using that word to try and discredit the very *legitimate* accusation of genocide perpetrated by israel. You can't just use the word willy nilly; it has a specific meaning. Palestinian resistance isn't genocidal.
#prime example of PalestiNazism
First they commit the October 7th genocide
Then they use their own people as human shield to cry “genocide” .
“It’s not genocide to mass rape woman and murder them and butcher people door to door ! It’s RESISTANCE!”
Sick monstrous PalestiNazi
#your Teqiyya has been exposed
And you're a great example of someone doing exactly what you accuse OP about.
There is no genocide of Palestinians as their population has exploded since 1948. There is no genocide in Gaza. The watering down of the term is coming from you.
And the historical record of genocidal language used by hajj Amin al-husseini, the Sauds, the Egyptians, the Syrians, and Hashemites weren't fulfilled because the jews were able to fight back. The 1937 peel commission would have given jews 3% of the total mandatory land but even that was too much. The 1947 plan, had Arabs accepted, wouldn't have had a single person leaving their home. But again, the consistent rejection of Israel existing in any capacity and Israel preventing October 7th, 8ths, 9th, and 10ths (as Hamas has repeatedly stated it intends to do) is the genocidal desires here.
Eew, you're a disgusting antisemitic troll. Even the anti-Israel U.N. found there was no genocide. Why don't you look up the word and read some definitions? Then you wouldn't publicly embarrass yourself by showing your limited language abilities.
You also don't seem to understand that 'resistance' does not include rape, mutilation, torture, and murder. They are criminal acts, specifically war crimes. The fact that you would like to do these things to Jews and others shows again that there is something horrifically wrong with your brain.
Please seek help from a reputable doctor, you desperately need it.
Both sides would rather turn a blind eye. The simple truth is, Israeli Jews are actually distant natives that left and come back. And Palestinians are natives that stayed and got Romanized, Christanized and later Islamized until the current day. Both disavow their origin so as to protect what they consider their country. Am personally on the Palestinian side of the issue though
1. Zionism called for coexistence from the beginning. It never came to be because the Palestine arabs rejected any notion of Jewish sovereignty over any part of Palestine.
2. It’s very hard to estimate exact numbers as there was a change of empires during that period, but between 1882 (the first large scale Jewish immigration to Palestine) to 1947, the Arab population grew from 297000 in the ottoman census to 1.4 million! This growth is far from explained by birthrates alone. This is the result of immigration. Just as the Jews immigrated the Palestine during that period, many of the modern day Palestinians also immigrated during the same period.
The beginning:
“In “The Jewish State,” Herzl wrote, “We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries while denying it any employment in our own country.” Herzl understood from the inception that Palestine was already heavily populated but that a transfer of the Palestinian population would be essential to bring about and, in the long term, ensure the viability of the Zionist-Jewish state.Herzl’s ideas on transfer were rooted in the European colonial logic of the period”
>Zionism called for coexistence from the beginning.
The beginning:
> *In 1895 [Herzl] wrote in his diary: “We must expropriate gently.… We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”*
> *Ben-Yehuda, who settled in Jerusalem in September 1881, wrote in July 1882 to Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna: “The thing we must do now is to become as strong as we can, to conquer the country, covertly, bit by bit.… We can only do this covertly, quietly.… We will not set up committees so that the Arabs will know what we are after, we shall act like silent spies, we shall buy, buy, buy.”54*
> *In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, who had arrived in Palestine in 1878, wrote to Rashi Pin, in Vilna:*
> *We have made it a rule not to say too much, except to those … we trust.… The goal is to revive our nation on its land … if only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority [Emphasis in original]…. There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones.*
> *Israel Zangwill had declared in April 1905: “[We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population.”*
How are you guys so good at spreading disinformation…..
“
…in accepting both the 1937 Peel Commission Report and the 1947 UN Partition Plan, Zionist leaders were accepting ideas for statehood that would have left very large Arab minorities.
Moreover, the quote by Herzl is but one sentence in a much larger idea.
Here’s the full Herzl diary entry:
“When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.”
The second half of the quote makes clear that Herzl wasn’t even contemplating forced expulsion of the Arab population. Moreover, as historian Efraim Karsh has observed, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Herzl believed in the forced transfer of Arabs – not in The Jewish State (1896), in his 1902 Zionist novel, Altneuland, “in his public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions”. The Financial Times journalist is imputing to the founder of modern Zionism (and, by extension, the Zionist movement more broadly) an appetite for ethnic cleansing based entirely on one meager and extremely unrepresentative sentence within a fuller quote, whilst completely ignoring the vast body of Herzl’s life’s work – which would of course contradict the desired conclusion.
But, there’s something even more misleading about the intended inference of that quote.
Here’s Karsh:
“Most importantly, Herzl’s diary entry [from that day] makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America. “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina,” Herzl recorded in his diary on June 13…Indeed, Herzl’s diary entries during the same month illustrate that he conceived all political and diplomatic activities for the creation of the future Jewish state, including the question of the land and its settlement, in the Latin American context. “Should we go to South America,” Herzl wrote on June 9, “our first state treaties will have to be with South American republics. We shall grant them loans in return for territorial privileges and guarantees.” Four days later he wrote, “Through us and with us, an unprecedented commercial prosperity will come to South America.”
In other words, the ‘damning’ Herzl quote doesn’t even have anything to do with Palestine or Arabs.
Moreover, the suggestion in the FT review that the story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of Jews attempting to supplant or ethnically cleans Arabs from the land is a historical inversion.
Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation. The war against the nascent Jewish state in 1948 was not motivated by a desire to adjust the borders, but to annihilate Israel. Likewise, in 1967, in the lead-up to the war, Arab leaders did not speak of their desire to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but, rather, waxed eloquently about how this would be a war of annihilation.
Though we’re not surprised that Khalidi, who described the Balfour declaration as “a declaration of war by the British Empire on the indigenous population”, refuses to commit to supporting Israel’s continued existence, and has evoked antisemitic tropes, would peddle such historical fiction, we do find it surprising, and quite troubling, that a journalist at a serious publication would promote such agitprop.
“
https://camera-uk.org/2020/03/03/financial-times-book-review-promotes-distorted-herzl-quote/
Zionism is creating an explicitly "Jewish homeland" which is the biggest problem. Giving all the Jews a right of return would meaning controling the demographics of the region and giving Jews more voting power than their Palestinian counterparts.
*Meanwhile in Israel minority rights are much better enforced than in any neighboring state.*
It’s no coincidence. Zionism had always pledged for this state to uphold minority rights and democratic values. And it called for peace with its neighbors, and agreed to any land partition presented.
Democracy is not just popular vote. Democracy is separation of branches, independent Supreme Court, minority rights.
P.S
Many nations have a homeland, it’s not just the Jews
>*Meanwhile in Israel minority rights are much better enforced than in any neighboring state.*
Saying your minority rights are better enforced then countries where no rights are enforced is not an achievement
>And it called for peace with its neighbors, and agreed to any land partition presented.
They had rejected every partition until the UN Partition and even that was opposed by some Zionist leaders with those supporting it only seeing it as a stepping stone to controlling the entire territory
>Democracy is not just popular vote. Democracy is separation of branches, independent Supreme Court, minority rights.
The irony of this statement considering what's happening not only with Israel's minorities but with her judicial system
Of course nations have a homeland. But I don't think there's any country that lets any Muslim/Christian take citizenship within the country purely based on their religion.
For example a Muslim can not become a citizen of any Muslim country purely based on the fact that they're Muslim.
It’s a bit complex with Jews because the Jewish people are, first and foremost, a nation. The term "Jewish" is literally a romanization of "Judean." By a "coincidence," these people also practiced a special religion named after their nation. The only reason this nation maintained its identity during exile is due to this religion, which is preserved through the maternal line (since the mother's identity is always certain), and it highly discourages conversion, mixed marriages, and anything else that will eventually eliminate their tiny minority nation. It’s hard to compare this with Islam, which actively “encouraged” conversions, resulting in a religion not comprised of a monolithic nation. The right of return is granted to the nation, not the religion. This is why if your father’s father is Jewish, you are also entitled to the right of return, even though most rabbis will not consider you Jewish.
3. When Israel was attacked many times, the attackers lost the wars. To the winner goes the spoils.
I’m happy to see your family came back home to Eretz Yisrael-the home that God gave us in a 4000 year old document called the Torah that even Christians and Muslims are supposed to follow.
And for 2000 years our ancestors prayed three times a day to return to that home.
Repeat that mantra too. They came and murdered and raped our people. Israel is fighting a defensive war with a significant amount of mercy. If we Jews were not so merciful, not a single Gazan would have been left alive.
The reason “you Jews” aka the sovereign nation of Israel and its military that have successfully convinced people they are one and the same
are “so merciful” is because leaving not a single gazan alive is explicitly genocide, btw. Not good optics. But thanks for letting me know your ethnoreligion is so much better than “them”
People already think their committing genocide even when their merciful. And I’d rather have their religion running things then a theocratic jihadist pedo worshiping one
1. That’s wrong. How can you have coexistence if you want to take another people’s lands and establish a state over it? That’s insane speech. If you had an ancestor that was from England 1000 years ago, does that give you the right to establish “Jewish sovereignty” over parts of England?
2. That is a lie. Palestinians are indigenous to their lands as was proven many times over of them sharing their dna results. Also, the issue was never immigration. The issue was always European Jews claiming their right to steal lands that don’t belong to them and establish a state. Ilan Pappe, who’s Israeli not Palestinian, talks extensively about Zionist plans for massacres and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to establish Israel.
you have no right to exist in your country either. you should be terrorized. we should all just terrorize one another in the manner of 10/7 indefinitely because civilization is a lie and every nation that ever existed was a result of land division, displacement of people, and maybe even war and death. no one has a claim to any land, except for the terrorists who rape children and burn entire families alive.
European Jews didn't steal land you fucking idiot. The United Nations declared the land WHERE JEWS ALREADY LIVED AND TO WHICH THEY WERE ALWAYS TIED the Jewish homeland and officiated it as a nation state of Jews. 60% of the Jews living in Israel are not of European descent and have brown skin. You could not differentiate them from the Arab population of Israel.
You can believe lies you were told in school all you want. Reality is still there and people know that it was the Palestinians who are terrorized by a fascistic, settler colonialist ideology since 1948. You can lie all you want, but the truth is louder than your lies. Louder than your gaslighting. And louder than the unjust UN resolution that unfairly gave Palestinian lands to establish Israel.
If you liked the UN so much, then you would’ve at least criticized Israel for failing to adhere to any UN ruling since then, and denounced it for flagrant violations of international law and human rights against the Palestinians.
Palestinians have professed minorities for hundreds of years. How can you co exist with them ? Even today Christian minorities under Palestinian rule suffer gravely. The Christian minority under Israeli rule is the ONLY ONE IN MENA THAT ACTUALLY GROWING.
After 1400 of oppression we had enough of Arab Islamic supremacy
No they don’t. Israel literally bombed the churches in Gaza and has been killing Christians with the branch of the Vatican in that region having to release a statement. Look up the Latin patriarchate of jerusalems statement. Palestinian Christians are pro Palestine
Check the Christian population under Palestinian rule in Beth Lechem than check it under Israeli rule.
Christians reported being oppressed and attacked by Muslim Palestinians. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s real. In Gaza they also murdered Christians.
Israel also bombed mosques. They had weapons in them. Why the Palestinians use places of worship for terror ? Or schools ? Or hospitals? It’s evil.
This isn’t opinion either. I’m giving you actual resources? Look up the Vatican’s statements and the pastor Munther Isaac in Bethlehem. Palestinian Christian’s are vehemently pro Gaza and Palestine.
Palestinian Christians have literally been living there and celebrating Christmas for years
https://www.newarab.com/media/images/gaza-begins-christmas-celebrations
Literally says here that the relationship is peaceful between Gazan Muslims and Christian’s
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-dilemma-of-gazas-christians#:~:text=As%20the%20city%20around%20it,in%20Gaza%20could%20be%20safe.
Here is an Israeli official declining that there are any Christian’s in Gaza https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xARjcv5KcMw
This was the Palestinian Christian statements https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bethlehem-christmas.html#:~:text=The%20war%20in%20Gaza%20has,tone%20down%20its%20Christmas%20celebrations.&text=There%20will%20be%20no%20musical,city%20of%20Bethlehem%20at%20Christmas.
Israel is a terrorist state. Thanks and goodbye
u/e_shamis and u/Ok_Pangolin_4875 As an actual indigenous ethnoreligious Palestinian-Christian (diaspora) the truth is you’re both right: Churches & the Christian community in the Bethlehem region have been indeed heavily attacked by Islamists in the last few decades, and this persecution was purposely ignored by PA. And yes, Churches in Gaza in the last few months during this war were attacked by the IDF as well (some instances the Churches were hit on purpose, others on accident).
> Between 1922 and 2017, the Palestinian Christian population dropped from 70,000 to 47,000, according to Palestinian Authority census data. In Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, the Christian population declined from 84% in 1922 to 22% in 2007, according to a 2020 survey by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) and the Philos Project.
> The main factor driving Christian emigration is persecution. In the survey conducted by the Philos Project and the PCPSR, over 40% of Palestinian Christians surveyed indicated that they feel that Muslims do not wish to see them in Palestine. Additionally, 44% feel that there is discrimination against Christians when seeking employment, and 50% describe their economic situation as “bad or very bad.” Nearly 30% have been called a “non-believer” or “crusader” by Muslims.
https://forthemartyrs.com/palestines-vanishing-christian-population/
Christians being attacked by Palestinian-Muslims constantly.
https://www.oikoumene.org/news/wcc-expresses-concern-about-violence-against-christians-in-palestinian-authority-areas
Persecution of Christians by PA
https://besacenter.org/persecution-christians-palestinian-authority/
Palestinians oppression of Christians isn’t even limited to Palestinian rules territories
Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiDamour massacre
##Palestinians oppressed Jews for hundreds of years and they continue to oppress any minority among them##
##PalestiNazism is a terror ideology and most Palestinians support Hamas that call for Jewish genocide world wide ##
Facts . Bye Felicia
Palestinians are Arabs from different surrounding countries like Egypt Syria and Jordan. There was never an official country called Palestine and in reality a perpetuated myth. Even yasser Arafat is from a long line of Egyptian Arabs.
So is the king of Morocco. He is from a long line of Arabs. But still, a huge chunk of the Moroccan population are native Berbers that lived there for millenia. This goes the same for Algerians, Libyans, and of course, the Egyptians who are related to the ancient Egyptians. Next b time you will tell me all the 100 million Egyptians areare Arabs from the Peninsula
They would downvote any jew. Welcome to Germany 1939. They spread their Teqiyya and support October 7th genocide. When EU will start suffering from terror I predict a shift.
DNA doesn't claim land, and neither does religious or historical significance.If dna claimed lands, then it encourages racial purity thinking and requires one to establish their dna was the one there first or somehow the legitimate holder.
If the world decided to claim their historical lands, then the whole world would be at war for decades. Not to mention, land can be historically significant to both groups at once. That's their culture and not an excuse to mess with the right to self-determination to the people already living on the land.
I don't think Israel should be dismantled, but the only way to claim the land was their right is extreme ethnocentrism. It also doesn't satisfy why the Negev or Samaria is their land If Jews' 2000 year old land claim is valid, then so are their 2000 year old misdeeds against the Samaritans. They have a right to live in the land with dignity because they are there now. Not allowing them that would be a humanitarian calamity.
If the descendants of Palestinian refugees did what the Israelis did to the Palestinians 400 years from now, when the memories of their family homes are gone, then it would have the exact same moral pitfalls.
I don't see any side as more morally superior due to their iron age DNA (a period we have arbitrarily said is the indigenous era, nevermind population changes beforehand. Do people really think this conflict would be different if Israel was in modern day Kenya as once posited?
DNA does not claim land, working a barren land and building it into paradise claims land. More than 90% of ottoman Palestine was barren, either malaria infested or uninhabitable desert. And of course, deep historical, cultural, religious, and DNA ties, make a claim stronger. But at the end of the of the day you can’t leave a land barren and abandoned, and expect it to remain in your control forever. Moreover, The Zionist Movement called for coexistence with the locals from its first days to its final moments in the Israeli the Declaration of Independence.
This is the same justification European settlers used when they colonized land in Asia and Africa, and the same language Americans used when they displaced native Americans while expanding westward.
>More than 90% of ottoman Palestine was barren
This is false. Ahad Ha’Am wrote in 1891,
> *"We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed.… But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains … are not cultivated.”*
Also, these ecosystems zionists destroyed actually served a purpose and Israeli scientists are working to recreate these swamps. [[1]](https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/bringing-back-a-swamp/)
Your comment makes no sense. First you're citing a claim about sown fields, sand dunes, and mountains. Then you're talking about swamps with absolutely no context. If that's how your mind works, it isn't working very well.
Well, they did turn this “expanded agriculture” into a 500 billion GDP economy didn’t they? Tel Aviv was established by zionists on a barren coast north of Jaffa.
They settled in land that already was fertile. They likely had better farming techniques but the land had farmers. That’s how they kicked out tenant farmers by purchasing land from absentee land lords.
The Jews moved to legally immigrated to Israel, many as refugees and purchased the land. Much of that land was uninhabited desert and swamps.
The Arabs attacked the Jews because they didn't want to live with them (Hebron massacre of 1928) They went to war and attempted to "push the Jews into the sea" and they lost, resulting in the Nakba.
Most countries boarders are created through war. If Palestinians hadn't attacked the Jews, they could have all lived together in a peaceful democracy.
Most of the land they purchased was in Israel's most fertile regions with a Mediterranean climate. They may have had more modern faming techniques, but it was hardly a desert.
If Israel was under the control of a foreign power and descendants of Palestinian refugees did what Israel did, starting with buying up land from landlords and kicking Jews off the land. I doubt that would not be taken as a military act. The Nakba was an ethnic cleansing of non combatants and would be considered a war crime today.
"If Jews came with the intent to live with the locals instead of cutting up land where the people lived and wanting Arab majority land to be part of Israel during the partition, maybe there would be peace." It's more complicated than that, isn't it?
Although I understand the context, brought. It makes the early stages of the conflict heartbreaking because there was so many what ifs. Israel's modern conduct in the West Bank is far darker than Israel's early history.
And about the Nakba claims, I assume you will dismiss these quotes from Arab and neutral persona who witnessed the events at the time as “Zionist propaganda”. That’s your right, just as it’s my right to believe that your opinions were formed by malicious bias. They’re in no particular chronological order.
"The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs; ...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families." - Emil Ghoury, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948
"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did." - Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14
The Arab exodus from the villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews" - Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953
The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies. - Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949
"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem." - Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949
"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..." - Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war
"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." - Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948
"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the [Arab Palestinian] people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property." - bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957
"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country." - Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in “The Arabs” (London, 1955), p. 183
"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." - Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, p. 25
"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa." - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz
Even Mahmoud Abbas has published articles blaming the Arab League countries:
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny, but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe.
“The Arab states succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the states of the world did so, and this is regrettable.” – The Current President of the Palestinian authority- Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas), from the official journal of the PLO, Falastin el-Thawra (“What We Have Learned and What We Should Do”), Beirut, March 1976, reprinted in the Wall Street Journal, June 5,2003.
Were there expulsions by Israel? Yes, there were some, mostly as the result of tactical situations rather than any coherent policy of mass expulsion. One example would be the expulsion of the armed irregulars in Lydda, who surrendered once, then picked up their arms and returned to fighting afterthe Israeli force moved on the Ramla, a town just down the road. After fierce fighting, the Arab irregulars surrendered a second time and were escorted to Latrun, which was under Jordanian control, to save the manpower that would have been needed to guard them as prisoners.
Deir Yassin has been found to be a pitched battle by none other than a group of researchers from Bir Zeit University in 1988, when they published a monograph showing that:
1. The number of casualties was far less than half those initially claims (112 as opposed to 255).
2. There were no “rapes and murders of pregnant women”.
3. That the atrocities were the brainchild of Hussein Khalidi.
https://youtu.be/72Ata-hY9WQ
>The Arab exodus from the villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews" - Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953
Benny Morris's book contradicts this. Most of them fled due to violence or fear of violence. "the causes behind the abandonment of the 392 main Palestinian towns and villages during the 1947-1948 war and found that “expulsion by Jewish forces” accounted for the abandonment of 53 of the towns and villages, or 13.5% of the refugee population
In contrast, 128 villages and towns (33%), were abandoned because of voluntary flight secondary by the influence of nearby town's fall (59), fear of being caught up in fighting (48), whispering campaigns (15) and evacuation on direct Arab orders (6)"
SOURCE: Benny Morris; Morris Benny (2004). The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Cambridge University Press
That’s how virtually all ethnic cleansings happen. You don’t grab every single person and every single family, you start in one town, light a couple houses on fire, publicaly execute a couple men who fight back - the vast majority flee to the next town and as the stories of the coming violence spreads people leave “voluntarily” This is also almost exactly what happened to the 700,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands after the nakba. just because it was done primarily with the terror of violence rather than brute force doesn’t mean much. They are both ethnic cleansing campaigns.
Israel also stole the land of it's Arab citizens after the war and didn't let Arab citizens return to their old lands, Iqrit is one example. Meanwhile Jews can return to any property owned by a Jew.
Morris merely reports the numbers. The official policy of the Haganah in Plan Dalet was split between 3 types of villages: mixed, Arab with resistance and Arab without resistance. Most of the 53 except for a few instances of specific strategic areas were settlements with resistance, which did face a policy of expulsion. Settlements without resistance were met with a siege and mixed settlements had specific resistances quelled. Haifa is a good example of the feelings of the Yishuv towards their peaceful Arab neighbors.
"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa." - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz
The example you gave for Iqrit, which was even condemned by the Israeli Supreme Court, is an example that there wasn’t a policy of expulsion, as it’s a specific instance of an Arab village located right on the border with Lebanon. Those are the specific strategic instances I referred to. It’s an example of a disagreement between the army and the Supreme Court on the strategic aspect of a village (and whether to expel it as a result). It’s actually strengthening the point that expulsion was an exception, not the rule.
>Haifa is a good example of the feelings of the Yishuv towards their peaceful Arab neighbors.
Causing the very flight described by the quote?
>The example you gave for Iqrit, which was even condemned by the Israeli Supreme Court, is an example that there wasn’t a policy of expulsion, as it’s a specific instance of an Arab village located right on the border with Lebanon. Those are the specific strategic instances I referred to. It’s an example of a disagreement between the army and the Supreme Court on the strategic aspect of a village (and whether to expel it as a result). It’s actually strengthening the point that expulsion was an exception, not the rule.
Destroying villages as a strategic policy is still a policy of expulsion
Not true. The Zionist plan was never to just immigrate to Palestine and live in peace with the native population. From the very beginning, since before the first boatload of Jews arrived in Palestine, their plan was to colonize the land. Of course the Palestinians fought back. https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/s/DGeefcrXSG
They bought the land legally even though under Islamic rule they had apartheid regime that claimed Jews not allowed to buy livable land . They obtain independence through political means for the most part. They helped their brothers and sister who were oppressed by the Palestinians. The native Judeans have managed to decolonize the British.
I also don’t think 21 Arab countries should be dismantle even though Saudia Arabia is the only legitimate one and the rest obtained through colonialism.
The Palestinians oppressed the Jews for hundreds of years. You can find massacres and rape and looting done by Palestinians hundreds of years prior to 1948. They had no rights oppressing Jews but they did it anyway. It comes with consequences.
If any offspring of refugee would claim they want their grandfather home back the world would be in chaos. Why the Palestinians right is superior ? Nobody else has that claim. Not even Jews that been ethnically cleansed from every Arab country and most part of Europe.
And if DNA or history don’t claim land the Palestinians have no right to any land by your logic.
Excuse me, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If you think Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous people of Israel, you are either listening to lies or are a dyed-in-the-wool antisemite. The fact that you're talking about Kenya as a potential Jewish homeland, which is something that antisemites love to talk about, is suspicious. Kenya was NEVER an option for a Jewish homeland as our ONLY home is Eretz Yisrael. Once in the 1800s, when Russian Jews were being ews lived in what is Israel and became the predominant ethnicity between about 3,000 B.C.E. until the Roman conquest at around the year 200 A.C.E. There was a genocide and mass expulsion, but enough Jews remained so that we were the majority in several cities - Tiberius, Tsafat, Acco - at various times until we began reclaiming the land (through purchase, not theft - sorry, antisemites) in the 1800s. It's important to realize that the reason there weren't more Jews wasn't because we didn't want to come, it was because we were often forbidden from emigrating there on pain of death, and when we did establish a foothold, pogroms and massacres devastated the Jewish community and drove out the small number of people who weren't killed.
So the Arabs acquired Israel through conquest. In the 1880s, as mentioned, Jews arrived and began buying land.
1. The first true inhabitants of the Levant are long gone. You have defined the true indigenous people to be in the Iron Age to suit your ethnic interests. Unlucky for you, the Palestinians descend from those people. They actually have more DNA from this era than most Jews.
2. Palestinians adopting Arab culture doesn’t strip them from the land. No more than Northern Egyptians adopting Southern Egyptian Naqada culture did, Anatolians adopting Greek culture, and the Celtic French adopting Latin culture.
3. Theodor Herzl posited putting Israel in Kenya when it was offered to him. It is not antisemitic to say he once thought of it. I am saying the it wouldn’t be any different morally than the situation we have now.
4. Jewish presence in the region is not a get out of jail free card. If descendants of Palestinian refugees did what Israel did to the Palestinians in the distant future, continued Palestinian presence in the region and their attachment to the land wouldn’t make it okay.
4. Stripping the people whose ancestors lived in the Levant of that connection is anti Palestinian. It’s a disgusting sentiment. If you people actually respected that Palestinians were part that land and deserve to live there, then you would have the moral high ground. You don’t have the moral high ground, everything you accuse the Palestinians of doing you do too. No one cares about being called an antisemite when they don’t support your ethnic interests.
Never in the history of Zionism was there an official document, command, or anything actually that would support the claim that the Jews wanted to remove the natives. On the contrary.. the Zionist movement called for coexistence from the get go to its final document - the Israeli Declaration of Independence. The only reason the Palestinians today are stripped of most of the land originally proposed to them in the partition plan is that they repeatedly try to genocide and cleanse a population with a valid claim as well.
There isn’t a single private land that the Zionist movement “stole”. It was all purchased according to legal standards, based on registered owners in the Ottoman public records that were accepted by the British, and the League of Nations. It’s also hard to argue that between the fall of empires public barren land belongs to any nation a-priori.
“We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country… expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”-Theodore Herzl
\>>> It’s also hard to argue that between the fall of empires public barren land belongs to any nation a-priori.
That’s a trail of tears argument, after all the Cherokee legally sold their land. It’s not a moral argument for buying up land and kicking off tenant farmers who were there for generations. If Israel was under a foreign power and descendants of Palestinians did to Jews what was done to them, the Jews would take it as a military act. They wouldn’t want to give up parcels of land that were completely Jewish to be ruled by Palestinians.
There were strains of Zionism that wanted to incorporate the locals such as the Canaanism promoted by Yonotan Ratosh but it was far from dominant.
About the Herzl quote, you should look up the full quote. You know what? I’ll be nice and attach it to the bottom of this comment.
As for the second part of your comment, I think you are mixing up public and private land. Public land was never purchased from anybody. It was nomansland. The Palestinians also claimed *all* of the *public* lands. The UN granted the Jews *some* of the public lands. To this the Palestinians opposed, with no real justification. It’s hard to argue that between the fall of empires *public* land belongs to any nation a-priori.
Private land is a different story, and I think we’re having this conversation somewhere else on this thread lol. Private land was purchased legally, and there was no expulsion policy. To this you can respond on the other conversation we’re having in concurrently 😅
Here’s the full Herzl quote:
“When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.”
I’ll add further context from an article I read, I’ll put the link in the bottom, it has some great sources.
“”” The second half of the quote makes clear that Herzl wasn’t even contemplating forced expulsion of the Arab population. Moreover, as historian Efraim Karsh has observed, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Herzl believed in the forced transfer of Arabs – not in The Jewish State (1896), in his 1902 Zionist novel, Altneuland, “in his public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions”. The Financial Times journalist is imputing to the founder of modern Zionism (and, by extension, the Zionist movement more broadly) an appetite for ethnic cleansing based entirely on one meager and extremely unrepresentative sentence within a fuller quote, whilst completely ignoring the vast body of Herzl’s life’s work – which would of course contradict the desired conclusion.
But, there’s something even more misleading about the intended inference of that quote.
Here’s Karsh:
“Most importantly, Herzl’s diary entry [from that day] makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America. “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina,” Herzl recorded in his diary on June 13…Indeed, Herzl’s diary entries during the same month illustrate that he conceived all political and diplomatic activities for the creation of the future Jewish state, including the question of the land and its settlement, in the Latin American context. “Should we go to South America,” Herzl wrote on June 9, “our first state treaties will have to be with South American republics. We shall grant them loans in return for territorial privileges and guarantees.” Four days later he wrote, “Through us and with us, an unprecedented commercial prosperity will come to South America.”
In other words, the ‘damning’ Herzl quote doesn’t even have anything to do with Palestine or Arabs.
Moreover, the suggestion in the FT review that the story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of Jews attempting to supplant or ethnically cleans Arabs from the land is a historical inversion.
Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation. The war against the nascent Jewish state in 1948 was not motivated by a desire to adjust the borders, but to annihilate Israel. Likewise, in 1967, in the lead-up to the war, Arab leaders did not speak of their desire to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but, rather, waxed eloquently about how this would be a war of annihilation. “””
https://camera-uk.org/2020/03/03/financial-times-book-review-promotes-distorted-herzl-quote/
That Herzl quote still mentions coercing people into leaving their lands. That is removing the natives, I never said violent displacement. Nor did you ask me to give an example specific to Palestine. What does it addressing the Arab population of Palestine or not have to do with anything? It was well known Herzl was practically minded and wasn't swayed by irredentism which is fundamentally emotional. It proves he intended to displace a people through coercion. Whether it be Palestine, China, or Bolivia. The attitude of being okay with displacement was seen when systemically they kicked out tenant farmers who had been there for generations. To transform a land that was majority Arab/another ethnicity into one that is majority Jewish would require displacement of sorts.
\>>> Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation.
As I keep saying if descendants of Palestinian refugees moved into an occupied Israel/Palestine with the intention to turn much of the majority Jewish areas to majority Palestinian areas, it would be seen as a military act. Any attempt at accommodating the new arrivals would be seen as giving into to people who stole the land (in the moral not legal sense).
As for your comments on one non democratically elected leader, I’m sure some members of Israeli paramilitary organizations wanting to ally with Nazis against the British, the Israeli funding of the Bosnian genocide, or it’s cozy relationship with South Africa represents Israel. But it’s more complicated than that right? Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians (and Jews living in the land) fought against the Nazis, likely for their own reasons. The enemy of the enemy is my friend is basic human nature
.>>>> Public land was never purchased from anybody. It was nomansland. The Palestinians also claimed all of the public lands. The UN granted the Jews some of the public lands. To this the Palestinians opposed, with no real justification. It’s hard to argue that between the fall of empires public land belongs to any nation a-priori. Private land is a different story, and I think we’re having this conversation somewhere else on this thread lol. Private land was purchased legally, and there was no expulsion policy. To this you can respond on the other conversation we’re having in concurrently
Modern nation states are a new concept, if the majority of people living on it didn't want to leave or be under the control of Israel, then it would be wrong to give it to Israel. Once again, if a descendants of Palestinian refugees did this if Israel/Palestine region was under a foreign power and being carved up, it would be interpreted by Jews as an act of aggression.
As for our other comment chain-
1. I mentioned Iqrit to illustrate the disenfranchisement of Israel’s Arab citizens. They were not allowed to return. Neither were Israel’s other Arab citizens who were displaced during the war of 1948. Many want to return today. Meanwhile the return to properties for Jews is governed by totally different laws.
2. Arabs citizens had their lands seized after the war when they were kept under martial law, none of it was returned.
On the Nakba being an ethnic cleansing-
None of what you said about how Arab villages were classified justifies the collective punishment of displacing them and not allowing them to return even if they had no combatant history. Displacing an entire town and not allowing non combatants to return is considered a warcrime. Look at how the world considers permanently removing Gazans to be a war crime even if Hamas is imbedded in their infrastructure.Benny Morris had access to archives that are sealed today, even he called it an ethnic cleansing, he just justifies it as a lesser evil. The merits of that is not something I particularly care about.
Actually, I was just referring to people who throw around the term antisemite such as the person who through it out for referring to the historical fact of Israel being posited to be created in modern-day Kenya.
And yeah I see this as a bloodfeud in which Jews hands are far from clean. Many Jews seem to harbor what is anti Palestinian/Levantine sentiment while many Palestinians harbor anti Jewish sentiment.
You will not be able to shame me into following your ethnic interests.
Add on:
And I was also talking about people who try to strip the continous Levantine inhabitants of their connection to the land.
If that is most Jews then so be it. It's a disgusting sentiment to have towards the continous inhabitants of a region since before the Iron age.
I don’t agree with the people who try to disconnect Palestinian/non-Jewish Levantines from the land. But there’s a certain strain of antisemitism circulating that Jews do not have an ancestral connection to that area which is used to erase Jewish history and contributes to the rising antisemitism in the world.
Remember: regardless of the exact details and form it takes, Jew-hatred rising (which is objectively true) is indicative of societal decay and rot.
Also thank you! Even though what you said is not accurate I do appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that you dislike basically the vast majority of Jews and all that entails.
Ancestral connection is not a get out of jail free card. Also, where does that leave Jewish groups, which primarily descend from converts? Or Bedouin wanderers, descendants of Armenian immigrants, etc. It encourages racial purity thinking.
If descendants of Palestinian refugees did to Jews what was done to them, then it wouldn't be okay. What if Israel was under a foreign power and they moved in mass with the intent to turn majority Jewish areas Palestinian for a Palestinian state. What if they kicked off tenants who had been in their homes for generations after buying the homes from uncaring landlords and if they later wanted to hand majority Jewish areas to a Palestinian state, anticipating further immigration on both sides to increase their majority. I wouldn't consider those actions justified because of Palestinian Canaanite DNA or their cultural connection.
If the majority of Jews support-
Stripping Palestinians of the land they inhabited even if they had no combatant history
if they support taking land from Israeli Arabs when they were under martial law
if they support not allowing internal displace Arab citizens to return to their villages such as Iqrit
if they support keeping Palestinians in Hebron under a suffocating system of checkpoints to live in the old city which isn't even in the same place as biblical Hebron and the majority of its buildings were built by the Mamluks
Then I think that they have vile disgusting views. That doesn't mean I dislike them, nor does it mean I want them stripped of their humanity. "The other side has vile views, so I don't care about their suffering" is a large part of this mess.
And even if I did dislike Jews it doesn't mean I support all that entails. Benny Morris and Ehud Barak both seemed to dislike Palestinians, it doesn't mean they support settler violence in the West Bank.
Both Jews and Palestinians harbor anti Jewish and anti Palestinian sentiment against each other. One is not morally better than the other.
Brother Yaak, this historical record was created by the Canaanites to the Egyptians describing a horde of invading Hebrews. What more evidence would you like to see.
I’d love to but it seems there are so many options here. Ancient and modern mixed modes, Periods, number of models, number of samples. Can you guide me in getting the info you’re looking for?
You are essentially a mix of a few west Asian populations. Your natufian is much higher than the non Jewish Kurds, the Lor people, the Azeri people all over west Asia, Persians
How ever compared to Levant Arabs your natufian is lower. An ancient Jew would have likely had more natufian than you, atleast by 10%. But different populations from west Asia at that same time would have less than you
If you go see the period table and go through the populations, then go to the database and see the ratio of Hunter gatherer and farmer and you can see why they give you these %s od each population
I’d guess your closest non Jewish populations would be Assyrians, Syrians, Lebanese, Chaldeans, and maybe a bit after comes Armenians and Palestinians
Important to note. This person probably still has alot of Jewish Ancestry but they may have mixed with others in the thousands of years they lived in Exile.
Im not sure but if you do a g25/ vahaduo or post your Iron age/ migration periods aswell that could help. Im sure there are other people on here that know more about Jewish Farmer dna and could help you out.
But essentially Natufian is original Levantine dna. Most levantines get around 25% so i guess yours are pretty similar. Although it is higher in the Arabian Peninsula/ egypt (around 50%+) cause the bronze age levantine Canaanites themselves had dna from like iran/ the Caucuses.
That’s super interesting. I think for our DNA it’ll be a bit different because Nash Didan were essentially frozen in time since Babylonian times. They did not return to Judea after The Edict of Cyrus, but remained in the Babylon area for another ~2600 years. It was also a very isolated community. My grandma spoke Lishan Didan which is a dialect of spoken Aramaic. I think it makes sense that 35% is Bronze Age Caucasian (1700-3500BC) because that would be the abrahamic period, in which Abraham migrated from the Iraq area to Canaan
I'm told all the time that genetic testing is illegal in Israel because of privacy laws and religious marriages.
How is it that you took this test?
Not asking to be hostile, it's just something that's on my mind a lot when people get political.
אני יהודי אוי ואבוי
There is a law from the 1950s that was meant to prevent parental testing without a court order. This law reflects the complexity of balancing policy and religion in Israel. The reason for the law is to prevent finding bastards (people born out of wedlock) because according to the Torah a known bastard is not allowed to marry a Jew, and in the religious-secular status quo in Israel it was decided that the rabbinate will control marriage, so they made this law to prevent accidentally finding bastards which would prevent them from being religiously married (Israel does recognize civil marriages since 2010).
So this law is essentially a relic from the past, before genetic testing was even invented. It’s been a breeding ground for antisemitic conspiracies, but anybody can order ancestry.com tests in Israel. I think myheritage don’t ship because they are an Israeli company so they go the extra mile, but it’s not really enforced for genetic testing which is why ancestry.com does ship to Israel.
Just a small translation note: the law was about mamzerim, children born from married women who did not have a get from beis din.
Those who opposed Chacham Ovadya Yosef’s decision to consider Ethiopian Jews as halachically Jewish focused on the mamzer question because of differences in marriage traditions.
The English word “bastard” has a much broader use and is much newer, and originally referred to a child conceived by a man and a woman other than his wife.
Interesting. I assume in this context it’s not a huge difference as this get from the bet din (you wrote beis din? I am guessing this is Yiddish pronunciation?) is traditionally given through Jewish marriage.
But when I think of it, according to this definition children born in civil marriage should also be considered mamzerim? Because it doesn’t seem like the rabbinate enforces this, as Israel does recognize civil marriage.
My guess is that they progressed a little bit, or more likely they just decided this is not the hill to die on. The political relationship between secular and religious Jews in Israel is contentious and complicated.
Children born in civil marriage would only be mamzerim if the mother had children from a previous Jewish man, as far as I know, and did not receive a get after the first man. Yes, yiddish.
An anecdote, I have a family member who is a geneticist for a major hospital in Israel. She mentioned that Israel probably ranks one of the highest in terms of couples doing genetic testing due to the risk of genetic diseases for (mainly Ashkenazi) Jews.
I'm not from Israel but most of my Jewish friends have done genetic tests with their partners for that exact reason.
That’s because lies spread like wildfire and you can only put them out one tree at a time.
DNA tests are not widely available here, as in commercially, but 23andme still ships to Israel and the process is the same process as any other country.
I am actually waiting for my results to come back. 😄
It's not an antisemitic rumor that spread.
It's misinformation spread by the Israeli government.
Those are two very different things, and the Israeli government *does* still require a court order, which can be thought of as analogous to a prescription that the court has to approve.
In this instance, shrugging it off as antisemitic because of some old ancient law is not only flat wrong, it provides cover for a crooked government and leaves the question and answer ambiguously unclear.
[Jerusalem Post 2019](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/want-to-fully-understand-your-family-genealogy-not-without-a-court-order-585230):
>While millions of such kits have been sold in the United States, **Israelis are forbidden to buy ancestry DNA kits from the store without presenting a court order, as the Israeli government controls these types of purchases due to the "Genetic Information Law.**"
>
>"By law genetic information/genetic testing may require obtaining explanations from a doctor and informed consent to perform the test, and should be checked only in the laboratory by a genetic institute recognized and licensed. Such a thing can not exist kits sold directly to the public," the Ministry of Health told Israeli publication Yediot Aharonot. "Such kits are also highly criticized, for their reliability, for the interpretation of their results, and for possible effects on subjects and their families."
>
>The court order can be issued after thoroughly examining reasoning behind the test as well as overseeing the process is done corrected in a licensed fashion, by rule of law. The government uses these measures to protect the public so that insurance companies, private parties, et cetera won't misuse the private information for personal gain, as well as the national implications these tests could hold or affect with Israel being a government recognized Jewish-state.
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>"I tried to get \[the ancestry kit\] in Israel, but I couldn't, I tried to send it to Israel and it didn't work, so on my trip to New York I just went to the drug store and bought it." Roi Latka told Yediot Aharonot.
[Jerusalem Post 2021](https://www.jpost.com/health-science/dna-tests-helping-to-open-up-world-and-reunite-families-665202):
>**Israeli law prohibits the purchase of a DNA test kit without a court order, so kits need to be purchased overseas.**
>
>“There are two companies willing to send DNA kits to Israel,” Helshtein explains. “The first is Family Tree, which claims to have 2.5 million samples of people’s DNA, and the test is done using a swab. A second company is 23andMe, which has 12 million samples, and the test is done by spitting into a tube. Then all you have to do is ship your sample directly to their lab, and your information is added to their database in the US. You can check your details online.
>
>“There’s another company called Ancestry that has a much larger sample base – 18 million – but they don’t ship to Israel. But you can use them if you have friends or family who can bring the kit with them to Israel.”
Yet the article explains how that is possible. *Despite, and in accordance* with the very real Genetic Information Law that exists. That's not the point at all. The point is it's not antisemitic to point out a real law that exists and citizens and companies have to work around.
No the antisemitic part is when people claim the reason for the law is because Jews are "afraid" that the "truth" will come out that Jews don't have Levantine origins. I've heard it a lot. Doesn't make sense when you look at Jewish results.
The obsession with Jewish "race" is common to every antisemitic conspiracy.
Cool result mate. i have never heard of kurdish jews before. I would also love to see more obscure jewish groups like chinese jews, Indian jews and karaite jews to post their DNA here. If you have such people in Israel, encourage them to take such results and post them here.
I have friends from the 2 latter groups but that'd be weird to ask them, although I know for a fact that there had been ancestry research about a number of different Indian Jewish communities and of Egyptian Karaites. I believe that Chinese Jews of the 20th century were simple Ashkenazi migrants.
When i ask about chinese jews, i refer to the kaifeng jews. the jews that were living in china since the 1200s.
i mean it would obviously be weird to ask them at face value. but just letting them that there is such a communty on reddit willing to know their genetic profile wont come off as bad i guess.
If at all curious about Kurdish Jews, I highly recommend the novel “My Father’s Paradise” by Ariel Sabar. Very moving depiction of Jewish life in Kurdistan and of the Mizrahi immigrant experience in Israel and the US.
Thanks ill check it out.
Any country has had Jews in it at some point. It’s kind of an on going joke that as a Jew/Israeli you can go anywhere in the world and you’ll meet other Jews or Israelis there despite only being 16 million worldwide
It's also a running joke to not go countries that know their Jewish population. Egypt had three and Afghanistan is back to zero, I think.
Of course. But some countries have less jews than others. I would be very interesting to see the genetics of such obscure jews.
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Assyrians were the enemies of the Jews lol. If your an “Assyrian Jew” something has clearly gone wrong lol. Jonah would have vommited if he ever heard of such a thing lol.
Jonah? You know nothing about him then. God literally punished him for not proclaiming his message to Assyria. Also, Assyrians still respect him.
Look there should be an Assyria. I know what some of my ancestors have done to you guys was a crime. I would like to an assyria built and of course it’s necessary for your existence and future. How one can be built without the destruction of my own people, I dont know.
Are you Kurd or Turk?
Kurdish.
Your autonomous zone your asking for isnt alot. But i know in future some of you guys may want to take Erbil lol etc and do some sort of Israel on us lol.
Personally I think only viable option is Nineveh Plains and to a extent "Assyrian Triangle".
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Unfortunately not, we just got to live with it
Then again, explain why these so called Jewish Kurds who speak Aramaic and share the same dna heritage with Assyrians but not Kurds ?
It's nothing to do with heritage they're Mizrahi Jews and they lived beside Kurds for quite a while we didn't go as far as assimilate them and get rid of their language what I find funny though is you Assyrians claiming everyone remotely Aramaic and if its got anything to do with us the kurds you bash us using your keyboard warrior Hivemind. It's like calling someone a polish Jew they're not ethnically polish but they have slightly mixed with them while in reality they're Ashkenazis, why do you guys always have to search galaxies though to start arguments with us kurds when the Arabs and Turks also attacked yall why must you blame us for something our ancestors did generations ago?
I don’t see how them speaking aramaic makes them assyrian when the assyrians themselves adopted the language. They even speak a seperate dialect. Also them being genetically related to assyrian doesn’t mean anything because all jewish populations are related to assyrian people. By that logic All jews would be assyrian.
Well explained, forgot to mention the fact that the Assyrians are related to all Jews whether they be Sephardic Mizrahi Ashkenazi, etc
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He's right. Kurdish Jews aren't actually related to regular Kurds. They're closely related to Assyrians genetically and speak Aramaic.
Look at his comment bro, the Gypsies are trying to steal everything, now they are hurrians or mittanis 😂 they are trying so hard to claim ancestral homeland to Mesopotamia, but they are donkey squatters who circumcise their own daughters who brought their disgusting culture and language to Mesopotamia, take your incest and donkey raping culture away from there
But Your own Holy Book Curses You lol.
How must that feel your own God. The Christian God Destroyed Assyria With his own Hands lol.
Read the bible theres not much good stuff said about Assyrians in there lol.
13 He will stretch out his hand against the north and destroy Assyria, leaving Nineveh utterly desolate and dry as the desert. 14 Flocks and herds will lie down there, creatures of every kind. The desert owl and the screech owl will roost on her columns. Their hooting will echo through the windows, rubble will fill the doorways, the beams of cedar will be exposed. 15 This is the city of revelry that lived in safety. She said to herself, “I am the one! And there is none besides me.” What a ruin she has become, a lair for wild beasts! All who pass by her scoff and shake their fists. Zephaniah Chapter 2.
We don't claim Mitanni and Hurrians but we know we've absorbed them into our population lots of our genetics and the Armenians have quite a lot of Hurrian cause they were absorbed into our population same could be said for Assyrians aswell
or using a hate speech slur ( lower case " gypsies" in a perforjative sense) of one genocided group ( Roma/Sinto aka " Gypsies") towards an indigenous group of thh Middle East who also experienced a genocide under a ethnosupremacist pan-Turanist supremeacist regime Young Turks. Oh, wait. That tracks for them it appears.
Stop that was incredibly rude & disrespectful. Kurdish-Muslims stole Assyrian-Christian land, after all.
These are the results of my grandma, a Kurdish (Sephardic) Jew from a small Jewish community from Azerbaijan and Urmia (Iran) called Nash Didan. Her mother and sister were killed and her father was taken by the soviets to a labor camp. She and her brother fled pogroms and antisemitism as kids until they were rescued by The Jewish Agency and were brought to Israel
That is tragic backstory. What a wonderful triumph on her part... She should really write an autobiography or dictate one. I had no that Urmia was in Azerbaijan.
I appreciate your kind words. Sadly she passed away during Covid… When I found this r/ I had to dig up the ancestry test I made her do a couple years back. We do have a lot of recordings of her telling the story. Perhaps I could put them into writing myself. Btw, Urmia is in Iran, but they share a border. The Nash Didan community was spread in the area, mostly around Baku and Urmia
I am sorry she passed, she had such a fascinating story and you definitely should definitely publish something based on her recordings. What year was she born? Since it seemed she survived both Soviet deportations and went to Israel whilst still a child. Was your grandmother Aramaic speaking? Was she able to have a career or university education?
She was born 1941, went to Israel at 1951. She and my grandpa (also Nash Didan, although a slightly different story, he passed before her) used to speak to each other in Lishan Didan, AKA the Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia. She was a stay-at-home mom, never worked or got education. Only spoke Lishan Didan, Hebrew and a little bit of Russian as she hadn’t practiced her Russian for decades
Ur grandmother wasn’t kurdish, she was assyrian jew/assyrian speaking jew
Why do Assyrians like you gotta search galaxies for that one kurdish related post and bash on it linking it to Assyria every time
All im gonna say is look at the “Kurdish jews” dna and see for urself. I mean u just heard the guy said she spoke lishana didan which means our tongue in assyrian. There are videos of them saying they are assyrian jews that were mislabled as kurdish jews.
Assyrian Jew Kurdish Jew they're all made up terms in the end they're their own people they're Jewish not Assyrian and neither are they Kurd but their "nationality" can be Kurd or Assyrian but most of them have identified as Kurd Jews in ethnically they're Mizrahi
Thanks for sharing. In that case, I think having an upper Mesopotamian sample in the model would be more accurate than a Caucasian sample. I think the results should be roughly 50/50 Levantine/Upper Mesopotamian
Where your parents able to speak Lishan Didan?
Nice, I’m half nash didan on my mother’s side, it’s nice to see other nash didan online considering we aren’t a lot Also, it’s quite sad that Lishan Didan is dying out…
Wait, Sephardic Jew from Azerbaijan? I’m from Azerbaijan and I’m aware of our Mountain Jew community, but I didn’t know they’re classified as Sephardic, or are you referring to a different community within Azerbaijan?
Probably embraced sephardic religious traditions, but no actual sephardic heritage. Thar is true for many non-Ashkenazi, non-yemenite communities.
Hmm I am actually unsure. In my bar mitzva I was classified as Sephardic. I am not entirely sure if way a lineage based classification or just a religious one. I actually think it’s just a religious classification in my case because there is no clear classification for us, but I’m not sure. I’ll need to ask around
Interesting, but have you heard of your background being Mountain Jewish, or is that something that has never been mentioned?
Never mentioned, actually the first time I saw the term is here https://imgur.com/gallery/ZHKrTQ0
Mizrachi for sure I am from Azerbaijan My 4 cousins are half Ashkenazi Jews half Mountain Jews I have lots of relatives half/half and some even half Georgian Jews. Ashkenazi Jews in Azerbaijan were majority before 1991 Lots of them came with Rothsheld and Nobel brothers to develop oil industry in Azerbaijan in the end of 19 century
>She and her brother fled pogroms and antisemitism as kids until they were rescued by The Jewish Agency and were brought to Israel Thank you for sharing a bit of her story.
That is extremely tragic and i am very sorry to hear that. When the soviet union ended have you been able to visit Azerbaijan?
My Grandmother and her relatives speak Lishan Didan they are from Kurdistan also
Where is Kurdistan?
Eastern Turkey, northern Syria/Iraq and western Iran. Kurds are a people [without a nation](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Fplace%2FKurdistan&psig=AOvVaw1AvMOOYdQ6qfoVkKFMK8wu&ust=1709280253776000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCKi0x6mL0IQDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE). They fight Turkish and Iranian influence and aspire to have their own nation someday. They are allied with Israel and the West.
Kurds of eastern present day Turkey and Rojava are absolutely not allied with Israel. You must be thinking of the Barzani clan in northern Iraq.
The Jews from kurdish background in Israel evacuated from Iraq during Operation Ezra and Nehemiah in the early 1950, there is over 200K Jews from kurdistani origins in Israel now, There are also many Kurdish clans who came to Palestine (like Hebron) at post-Ayyubid periods, especially under the Ottomans. I think we can say their numbers can reach to over 500K in the west bank only
Thanks for sharing your grandmother's results. I find it disheartening how people seem fall into racial purity thinking when it comes to this conflict. This goes for both sides. Whichever side is more right will not be determined by who has more Iron Age DNA. Counting DNA strands leads us all down a dangerous road.
Truly. Some people who normally seem like they have a good head on their shoulders are suddenly calling for the expulsion of natural-born citizens due to having the “wrong” skin color. Real slippery slope right there.
I also see people saying that Palestinians were never connected to the land and therefore Jews had some right over it. This conflict wouldn't be any different morally if Palestinians primarily descended from Peninsular Arabs. So many people counting Canaanite DNA. The logical consequences of Canaanite DNA being a moral arbiter is using supremacist logic to keep Canaanite DNA high.
Respectfully, I don’t think Jews would be worried about “proving” their Canaanite/Levantine origin if they weren’t the subject of so many false conspiracies and accusations of being “European settler colonialists” or Khazars or whatever other Jew-hate flavor of the month narrative is going around. There are long standing and widespread efforts to enact Jewish cultural erasure and deny Jewish indigeneity that it’s not surprising we get a little defensive about it. Yes, there are those on “the other side” who say things like “there’s no such thing as a Palestinian that was invented in the 1960s” but that line of thinking is primarily about nationalism, not indigeneity. They are usually along the lines of “Palestinians are no different than Jordanians/Lebanese/Egyptians”, ie it takes the form of a denial of there being a distinct national identity/ethnicity separate from that of their neighbors. To be clear I don’t think the latter is helpful, I’m not endorsing that stance and IMO recognition of shared suffering and shared indigeneity is critical. That said, as with many “both sides” in this difficult conflict the sides are quite asymmetric.
Actions that would have been immoral with no genetic ties don't become moral with genetic ties. People with ancient partly Canaanite DNA but ancestry who went to another region 20 great grandparents back doesn't have more right to live on the land than descendants of more recent arrivals. Both Jews and Palestinians talking about their Canaanite DNA carries the assumption that DNA=land rights. Where does that leave Jewish groups that primarily descend from converts or more recent immigrants to the region? I believe that both sides deserve to live in the land with dignity because they are there today. Removing the other would be a humanitarian calamity.
I'm curious if you'd take a similar position on first nations and the various non indigenous groups that now reside here?
The situation American Indians face is not the same as the one Palestinians do. Not to say things are stellar for Indians mind you, but thats just the standard bullshit minorities in the US deal with.
This is where I get confused, are the ancient Israelites just one group of Canaanites who conquered another group of Canaanites or is something else going on here?
tried to find credible sources: According to Britannica, “Late Bronze to the Early Iron Age—probably about 1250 BCE—the Israelites entered Canaan, settling at first in the hill country and in the south. The Israelites’ infiltration was opposed by the Canaanites, who continued to hold the stronger cities of the region..” and “The Israelites occupied and conquered Palestine, or Canaan, beginning in the late 2nd millennium BCE, or perhaps earlier; and the Bible justifies such occupation by identifying Canaan with the Promised Land, the land promised to the Israelites by God.” source - https://www.britannica.com/place/Canaan-historical-region-Middle-East According to the National Center for Biotechnology Information, “Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times.” source - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/#:~:text=Archaeologic%20and%20genetic%20data%20support,but%20not%20in%20genetic%2C%20differences.
Yes.
I guess you are getting downvoted because the Teqiyya bots hate to see a proof their anti semitic theories are wrong. Another indigenous Jew back in their ancestral land. היסטורית משפחתית מעניינת מאוד אחי 🙏
There are many Palestinians with similar profiles, would you say the same to them? That it’s their ancestral land? Just curious
I would say them the same thing the Jews told them: you have a right of your own to the land. You will have a country and we will have our own and we will live in peace. But the Palestinians said “we want to throw you all to the sea” and opened a genocidal war /intifada with exploding busses [depends which peace deal you want to talk about ], October 7th genocide and the list goes on. No one ever told them they can’t have their own country
This is a great example of someone trying to water down the definition of genocide by using it as a description for Palestinians fighting back against their oppressors. You are using that word to try and discredit the very *legitimate* accusation of genocide perpetrated by israel. You can't just use the word willy nilly; it has a specific meaning. Palestinian resistance isn't genocidal.
#prime example of PalestiNazism First they commit the October 7th genocide Then they use their own people as human shield to cry “genocide” . “It’s not genocide to mass rape woman and murder them and butcher people door to door ! It’s RESISTANCE!” Sick monstrous PalestiNazi #your Teqiyya has been exposed
Yeah yeah stfu
And you're a great example of someone doing exactly what you accuse OP about. There is no genocide of Palestinians as their population has exploded since 1948. There is no genocide in Gaza. The watering down of the term is coming from you. And the historical record of genocidal language used by hajj Amin al-husseini, the Sauds, the Egyptians, the Syrians, and Hashemites weren't fulfilled because the jews were able to fight back. The 1937 peel commission would have given jews 3% of the total mandatory land but even that was too much. The 1947 plan, had Arabs accepted, wouldn't have had a single person leaving their home. But again, the consistent rejection of Israel existing in any capacity and Israel preventing October 7th, 8ths, 9th, and 10ths (as Hamas has repeatedly stated it intends to do) is the genocidal desires here.
Eew, you're a disgusting antisemitic troll. Even the anti-Israel U.N. found there was no genocide. Why don't you look up the word and read some definitions? Then you wouldn't publicly embarrass yourself by showing your limited language abilities. You also don't seem to understand that 'resistance' does not include rape, mutilation, torture, and murder. They are criminal acts, specifically war crimes. The fact that you would like to do these things to Jews and others shows again that there is something horrifically wrong with your brain. Please seek help from a reputable doctor, you desperately need it.
>would you say the same to them? That it’s their ancestral land? Yes.
Both sides would rather turn a blind eye. The simple truth is, Israeli Jews are actually distant natives that left and come back. And Palestinians are natives that stayed and got Romanized, Christanized and later Islamized until the current day. Both disavow their origin so as to protect what they consider their country. Am personally on the Palestinian side of the issue though
1. Zionism called for coexistence from the beginning. It never came to be because the Palestine arabs rejected any notion of Jewish sovereignty over any part of Palestine. 2. It’s very hard to estimate exact numbers as there was a change of empires during that period, but between 1882 (the first large scale Jewish immigration to Palestine) to 1947, the Arab population grew from 297000 in the ottoman census to 1.4 million! This growth is far from explained by birthrates alone. This is the result of immigration. Just as the Jews immigrated the Palestine during that period, many of the modern day Palestinians also immigrated during the same period.
The beginning: “In “The Jewish State,” Herzl wrote, “We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries while denying it any employment in our own country.” Herzl understood from the inception that Palestine was already heavily populated but that a transfer of the Palestinian population would be essential to bring about and, in the long term, ensure the viability of the Zionist-Jewish state.Herzl’s ideas on transfer were rooted in the European colonial logic of the period”
>Zionism called for coexistence from the beginning. The beginning: > *In 1895 [Herzl] wrote in his diary: “We must expropriate gently.… We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”* > *Ben-Yehuda, who settled in Jerusalem in September 1881, wrote in July 1882 to Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna: “The thing we must do now is to become as strong as we can, to conquer the country, covertly, bit by bit.… We can only do this covertly, quietly.… We will not set up committees so that the Arabs will know what we are after, we shall act like silent spies, we shall buy, buy, buy.”54* > *In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, who had arrived in Palestine in 1878, wrote to Rashi Pin, in Vilna:* > *We have made it a rule not to say too much, except to those … we trust.… The goal is to revive our nation on its land … if only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority [Emphasis in original]…. There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones.* > *Israel Zangwill had declared in April 1905: “[We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population.”*
How are you guys so good at spreading disinformation….. “ …in accepting both the 1937 Peel Commission Report and the 1947 UN Partition Plan, Zionist leaders were accepting ideas for statehood that would have left very large Arab minorities. Moreover, the quote by Herzl is but one sentence in a much larger idea. Here’s the full Herzl diary entry: “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.” The second half of the quote makes clear that Herzl wasn’t even contemplating forced expulsion of the Arab population. Moreover, as historian Efraim Karsh has observed, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Herzl believed in the forced transfer of Arabs – not in The Jewish State (1896), in his 1902 Zionist novel, Altneuland, “in his public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions”. The Financial Times journalist is imputing to the founder of modern Zionism (and, by extension, the Zionist movement more broadly) an appetite for ethnic cleansing based entirely on one meager and extremely unrepresentative sentence within a fuller quote, whilst completely ignoring the vast body of Herzl’s life’s work – which would of course contradict the desired conclusion. But, there’s something even more misleading about the intended inference of that quote. Here’s Karsh: “Most importantly, Herzl’s diary entry [from that day] makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America. “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina,” Herzl recorded in his diary on June 13…Indeed, Herzl’s diary entries during the same month illustrate that he conceived all political and diplomatic activities for the creation of the future Jewish state, including the question of the land and its settlement, in the Latin American context. “Should we go to South America,” Herzl wrote on June 9, “our first state treaties will have to be with South American republics. We shall grant them loans in return for territorial privileges and guarantees.” Four days later he wrote, “Through us and with us, an unprecedented commercial prosperity will come to South America.” In other words, the ‘damning’ Herzl quote doesn’t even have anything to do with Palestine or Arabs. Moreover, the suggestion in the FT review that the story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of Jews attempting to supplant or ethnically cleans Arabs from the land is a historical inversion. Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation. The war against the nascent Jewish state in 1948 was not motivated by a desire to adjust the borders, but to annihilate Israel. Likewise, in 1967, in the lead-up to the war, Arab leaders did not speak of their desire to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but, rather, waxed eloquently about how this would be a war of annihilation. Though we’re not surprised that Khalidi, who described the Balfour declaration as “a declaration of war by the British Empire on the indigenous population”, refuses to commit to supporting Israel’s continued existence, and has evoked antisemitic tropes, would peddle such historical fiction, we do find it surprising, and quite troubling, that a journalist at a serious publication would promote such agitprop. “ https://camera-uk.org/2020/03/03/financial-times-book-review-promotes-distorted-herzl-quote/
Zionism is creating an explicitly "Jewish homeland" which is the biggest problem. Giving all the Jews a right of return would meaning controling the demographics of the region and giving Jews more voting power than their Palestinian counterparts.
*Meanwhile in Israel minority rights are much better enforced than in any neighboring state.* It’s no coincidence. Zionism had always pledged for this state to uphold minority rights and democratic values. And it called for peace with its neighbors, and agreed to any land partition presented. Democracy is not just popular vote. Democracy is separation of branches, independent Supreme Court, minority rights. P.S Many nations have a homeland, it’s not just the Jews
>*Meanwhile in Israel minority rights are much better enforced than in any neighboring state.* Saying your minority rights are better enforced then countries where no rights are enforced is not an achievement >And it called for peace with its neighbors, and agreed to any land partition presented. They had rejected every partition until the UN Partition and even that was opposed by some Zionist leaders with those supporting it only seeing it as a stepping stone to controlling the entire territory >Democracy is not just popular vote. Democracy is separation of branches, independent Supreme Court, minority rights. The irony of this statement considering what's happening not only with Israel's minorities but with her judicial system
Of course nations have a homeland. But I don't think there's any country that lets any Muslim/Christian take citizenship within the country purely based on their religion. For example a Muslim can not become a citizen of any Muslim country purely based on the fact that they're Muslim.
It’s a bit complex with Jews because the Jewish people are, first and foremost, a nation. The term "Jewish" is literally a romanization of "Judean." By a "coincidence," these people also practiced a special religion named after their nation. The only reason this nation maintained its identity during exile is due to this religion, which is preserved through the maternal line (since the mother's identity is always certain), and it highly discourages conversion, mixed marriages, and anything else that will eventually eliminate their tiny minority nation. It’s hard to compare this with Islam, which actively “encouraged” conversions, resulting in a religion not comprised of a monolithic nation. The right of return is granted to the nation, not the religion. This is why if your father’s father is Jewish, you are also entitled to the right of return, even though most rabbis will not consider you Jewish.
You are on a post showing jewish genetics being tracked. It goes beyond a religion.
so? deal with it. every country is unique.
You think 1895 is the *beginning*? Where were Muslims during the Bar Khokba revolt?
Islam didn't exist yet
Modern Zionism began around 1895
3. When Israel was attacked many times, the attackers lost the wars. To the winner goes the spoils. I’m happy to see your family came back home to Eretz Yisrael-the home that God gave us in a 4000 year old document called the Torah that even Christians and Muslims are supposed to follow. And for 2000 years our ancestors prayed three times a day to return to that home.
“When Israel was attacked many times” lol
What a moral religious view you have, to the winner the spoils and it’s our land anyway cuz god
Repeat that mantra too. They came and murdered and raped our people. Israel is fighting a defensive war with a significant amount of mercy. If we Jews were not so merciful, not a single Gazan would have been left alive.
“They” did? The women and children did?
No but they supported their husbands
The reason “you Jews” aka the sovereign nation of Israel and its military that have successfully convinced people they are one and the same are “so merciful” is because leaving not a single gazan alive is explicitly genocide, btw. Not good optics. But thanks for letting me know your ethnoreligion is so much better than “them”
People already think their committing genocide even when their merciful. And I’d rather have their religion running things then a theocratic jihadist pedo worshiping one
idiot
1. That’s wrong. How can you have coexistence if you want to take another people’s lands and establish a state over it? That’s insane speech. If you had an ancestor that was from England 1000 years ago, does that give you the right to establish “Jewish sovereignty” over parts of England? 2. That is a lie. Palestinians are indigenous to their lands as was proven many times over of them sharing their dna results. Also, the issue was never immigration. The issue was always European Jews claiming their right to steal lands that don’t belong to them and establish a state. Ilan Pappe, who’s Israeli not Palestinian, talks extensively about Zionist plans for massacres and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to establish Israel.
you have no right to exist in your country either. you should be terrorized. we should all just terrorize one another in the manner of 10/7 indefinitely because civilization is a lie and every nation that ever existed was a result of land division, displacement of people, and maybe even war and death. no one has a claim to any land, except for the terrorists who rape children and burn entire families alive. European Jews didn't steal land you fucking idiot. The United Nations declared the land WHERE JEWS ALREADY LIVED AND TO WHICH THEY WERE ALWAYS TIED the Jewish homeland and officiated it as a nation state of Jews. 60% of the Jews living in Israel are not of European descent and have brown skin. You could not differentiate them from the Arab population of Israel.
You can believe lies you were told in school all you want. Reality is still there and people know that it was the Palestinians who are terrorized by a fascistic, settler colonialist ideology since 1948. You can lie all you want, but the truth is louder than your lies. Louder than your gaslighting. And louder than the unjust UN resolution that unfairly gave Palestinian lands to establish Israel. If you liked the UN so much, then you would’ve at least criticized Israel for failing to adhere to any UN ruling since then, and denounced it for flagrant violations of international law and human rights against the Palestinians.
LOL.
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How are you coexisting on land that’s not yours though? Can I coexist in your home? If so, send me the address
Palestinians have professed minorities for hundreds of years. How can you co exist with them ? Even today Christian minorities under Palestinian rule suffer gravely. The Christian minority under Israeli rule is the ONLY ONE IN MENA THAT ACTUALLY GROWING. After 1400 of oppression we had enough of Arab Islamic supremacy
No they don’t. Israel literally bombed the churches in Gaza and has been killing Christians with the branch of the Vatican in that region having to release a statement. Look up the Latin patriarchate of jerusalems statement. Palestinian Christians are pro Palestine
Check the Christian population under Palestinian rule in Beth Lechem than check it under Israeli rule. Christians reported being oppressed and attacked by Muslim Palestinians. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s real. In Gaza they also murdered Christians. Israel also bombed mosques. They had weapons in them. Why the Palestinians use places of worship for terror ? Or schools ? Or hospitals? It’s evil.
This isn’t opinion either. I’m giving you actual resources? Look up the Vatican’s statements and the pastor Munther Isaac in Bethlehem. Palestinian Christian’s are vehemently pro Gaza and Palestine. Palestinian Christians have literally been living there and celebrating Christmas for years https://www.newarab.com/media/images/gaza-begins-christmas-celebrations Literally says here that the relationship is peaceful between Gazan Muslims and Christian’s https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-dilemma-of-gazas-christians#:~:text=As%20the%20city%20around%20it,in%20Gaza%20could%20be%20safe. Here is an Israeli official declining that there are any Christian’s in Gaza https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xARjcv5KcMw This was the Palestinian Christian statements https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bethlehem-christmas.html#:~:text=The%20war%20in%20Gaza%20has,tone%20down%20its%20Christmas%20celebrations.&text=There%20will%20be%20no%20musical,city%20of%20Bethlehem%20at%20Christmas. Israel is a terrorist state. Thanks and goodbye
u/e_shamis and u/Ok_Pangolin_4875 As an actual indigenous ethnoreligious Palestinian-Christian (diaspora) the truth is you’re both right: Churches & the Christian community in the Bethlehem region have been indeed heavily attacked by Islamists in the last few decades, and this persecution was purposely ignored by PA. And yes, Churches in Gaza in the last few months during this war were attacked by the IDF as well (some instances the Churches were hit on purpose, others on accident).
> Between 1922 and 2017, the Palestinian Christian population dropped from 70,000 to 47,000, according to Palestinian Authority census data. In Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, the Christian population declined from 84% in 1922 to 22% in 2007, according to a 2020 survey by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) and the Philos Project. > The main factor driving Christian emigration is persecution. In the survey conducted by the Philos Project and the PCPSR, over 40% of Palestinian Christians surveyed indicated that they feel that Muslims do not wish to see them in Palestine. Additionally, 44% feel that there is discrimination against Christians when seeking employment, and 50% describe their economic situation as “bad or very bad.” Nearly 30% have been called a “non-believer” or “crusader” by Muslims. https://forthemartyrs.com/palestines-vanishing-christian-population/ Christians being attacked by Palestinian-Muslims constantly. https://www.oikoumene.org/news/wcc-expresses-concern-about-violence-against-christians-in-palestinian-authority-areas Persecution of Christians by PA https://besacenter.org/persecution-christians-palestinian-authority/ Palestinians oppression of Christians isn’t even limited to Palestinian rules territories Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiDamour massacre ##Palestinians oppressed Jews for hundreds of years and they continue to oppress any minority among them## ##PalestiNazism is a terror ideology and most Palestinians support Hamas that call for Jewish genocide world wide ## Facts . Bye Felicia
Palestinians are Arabs from different surrounding countries like Egypt Syria and Jordan. There was never an official country called Palestine and in reality a perpetuated myth. Even yasser Arafat is from a long line of Egyptian Arabs.
So is the king of Morocco. He is from a long line of Arabs. But still, a huge chunk of the Moroccan population are native Berbers that lived there for millenia. This goes the same for Algerians, Libyans, and of course, the Egyptians who are related to the ancient Egyptians. Next b time you will tell me all the 100 million Egyptians areare Arabs from the Peninsula
Anyway this is a very charged topic and we want to avoid politics. I would much rather discuss what we have in common
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And who invited you to be so rude????
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So they aren’t Arabs? Stating facts about a people doesn’t make you a fascist. But calling me all kinds of leftist buzz words is ok. 🥴
I appreciate you brother ❤️
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A lot of anti semites in Reddit and no consequence against their hate. Welcome to left wing woke America.
They would downvote any jew. Welcome to Germany 1939. They spread their Teqiyya and support October 7th genocide. When EU will start suffering from terror I predict a shift.
DNA doesn't claim land, and neither does religious or historical significance.If dna claimed lands, then it encourages racial purity thinking and requires one to establish their dna was the one there first or somehow the legitimate holder. If the world decided to claim their historical lands, then the whole world would be at war for decades. Not to mention, land can be historically significant to both groups at once. That's their culture and not an excuse to mess with the right to self-determination to the people already living on the land. I don't think Israel should be dismantled, but the only way to claim the land was their right is extreme ethnocentrism. It also doesn't satisfy why the Negev or Samaria is their land If Jews' 2000 year old land claim is valid, then so are their 2000 year old misdeeds against the Samaritans. They have a right to live in the land with dignity because they are there now. Not allowing them that would be a humanitarian calamity. If the descendants of Palestinian refugees did what the Israelis did to the Palestinians 400 years from now, when the memories of their family homes are gone, then it would have the exact same moral pitfalls. I don't see any side as more morally superior due to their iron age DNA (a period we have arbitrarily said is the indigenous era, nevermind population changes beforehand. Do people really think this conflict would be different if Israel was in modern day Kenya as once posited?
DNA does not claim land, working a barren land and building it into paradise claims land. More than 90% of ottoman Palestine was barren, either malaria infested or uninhabitable desert. And of course, deep historical, cultural, religious, and DNA ties, make a claim stronger. But at the end of the of the day you can’t leave a land barren and abandoned, and expect it to remain in your control forever. Moreover, The Zionist Movement called for coexistence with the locals from its first days to its final moments in the Israeli the Declaration of Independence.
This is the same justification European settlers used when they colonized land in Asia and Africa, and the same language Americans used when they displaced native Americans while expanding westward. >More than 90% of ottoman Palestine was barren This is false. Ahad Ha’Am wrote in 1891, > *"We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed.… But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains … are not cultivated.”* Also, these ecosystems zionists destroyed actually served a purpose and Israeli scientists are working to recreate these swamps. [[1]](https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/bringing-back-a-swamp/)
This is so false. I can’t stand that false equivalence of Israel’s formation to European imperialism
Your comment makes no sense. First you're citing a claim about sown fields, sand dunes, and mountains. Then you're talking about swamps with absolutely no context. If that's how your mind works, it isn't working very well.
Virtue signaling, performative activism *and* historical revision. Crazy!
i would call the expansion of agriculture with new technology paradise, just expanded agriculture.
Well, they did turn this “expanded agriculture” into a 500 billion GDP economy didn’t they? Tel Aviv was established by zionists on a barren coast north of Jaffa.
They settled in land that already was fertile. They likely had better farming techniques but the land had farmers. That’s how they kicked out tenant farmers by purchasing land from absentee land lords.
The Jews moved to legally immigrated to Israel, many as refugees and purchased the land. Much of that land was uninhabited desert and swamps. The Arabs attacked the Jews because they didn't want to live with them (Hebron massacre of 1928) They went to war and attempted to "push the Jews into the sea" and they lost, resulting in the Nakba. Most countries boarders are created through war. If Palestinians hadn't attacked the Jews, they could have all lived together in a peaceful democracy.
Most of the land they purchased was in Israel's most fertile regions with a Mediterranean climate. They may have had more modern faming techniques, but it was hardly a desert. If Israel was under the control of a foreign power and descendants of Palestinian refugees did what Israel did, starting with buying up land from landlords and kicking Jews off the land. I doubt that would not be taken as a military act. The Nakba was an ethnic cleansing of non combatants and would be considered a war crime today. "If Jews came with the intent to live with the locals instead of cutting up land where the people lived and wanting Arab majority land to be part of Israel during the partition, maybe there would be peace." It's more complicated than that, isn't it? Although I understand the context, brought. It makes the early stages of the conflict heartbreaking because there was so many what ifs. Israel's modern conduct in the West Bank is far darker than Israel's early history.
And about the Nakba claims, I assume you will dismiss these quotes from Arab and neutral persona who witnessed the events at the time as “Zionist propaganda”. That’s your right, just as it’s my right to believe that your opinions were formed by malicious bias. They’re in no particular chronological order. "The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs; ...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families." - Emil Ghoury, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948 "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did." - Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14 The Arab exodus from the villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews" - Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953 The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies. - Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949 "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem." - Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949 "Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..." - Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile." - Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948 "As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the [Arab Palestinian] people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property." - bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957 "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country." - Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in “The Arabs” (London, 1955), p. 183 "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa." - Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, p. 25 "Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa." - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz Even Mahmoud Abbas has published articles blaming the Arab League countries: “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny, but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe. “The Arab states succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the states of the world did so, and this is regrettable.” – The Current President of the Palestinian authority- Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas), from the official journal of the PLO, Falastin el-Thawra (“What We Have Learned and What We Should Do”), Beirut, March 1976, reprinted in the Wall Street Journal, June 5,2003. Were there expulsions by Israel? Yes, there were some, mostly as the result of tactical situations rather than any coherent policy of mass expulsion. One example would be the expulsion of the armed irregulars in Lydda, who surrendered once, then picked up their arms and returned to fighting afterthe Israeli force moved on the Ramla, a town just down the road. After fierce fighting, the Arab irregulars surrendered a second time and were escorted to Latrun, which was under Jordanian control, to save the manpower that would have been needed to guard them as prisoners. Deir Yassin has been found to be a pitched battle by none other than a group of researchers from Bir Zeit University in 1988, when they published a monograph showing that: 1. The number of casualties was far less than half those initially claims (112 as opposed to 255). 2. There were no “rapes and murders of pregnant women”. 3. That the atrocities were the brainchild of Hussein Khalidi. https://youtu.be/72Ata-hY9WQ
>The Arab exodus from the villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews" - Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953 Benny Morris's book contradicts this. Most of them fled due to violence or fear of violence. "the causes behind the abandonment of the 392 main Palestinian towns and villages during the 1947-1948 war and found that “expulsion by Jewish forces” accounted for the abandonment of 53 of the towns and villages, or 13.5% of the refugee population In contrast, 128 villages and towns (33%), were abandoned because of voluntary flight secondary by the influence of nearby town's fall (59), fear of being caught up in fighting (48), whispering campaigns (15) and evacuation on direct Arab orders (6)" SOURCE: Benny Morris; Morris Benny (2004). The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Cambridge University Press That’s how virtually all ethnic cleansings happen. You don’t grab every single person and every single family, you start in one town, light a couple houses on fire, publicaly execute a couple men who fight back - the vast majority flee to the next town and as the stories of the coming violence spreads people leave “voluntarily” This is also almost exactly what happened to the 700,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands after the nakba. just because it was done primarily with the terror of violence rather than brute force doesn’t mean much. They are both ethnic cleansing campaigns. Israel also stole the land of it's Arab citizens after the war and didn't let Arab citizens return to their old lands, Iqrit is one example. Meanwhile Jews can return to any property owned by a Jew.
Morris merely reports the numbers. The official policy of the Haganah in Plan Dalet was split between 3 types of villages: mixed, Arab with resistance and Arab without resistance. Most of the 53 except for a few instances of specific strategic areas were settlements with resistance, which did face a policy of expulsion. Settlements without resistance were met with a siege and mixed settlements had specific resistances quelled. Haifa is a good example of the feelings of the Yishuv towards their peaceful Arab neighbors. "Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa." - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz The example you gave for Iqrit, which was even condemned by the Israeli Supreme Court, is an example that there wasn’t a policy of expulsion, as it’s a specific instance of an Arab village located right on the border with Lebanon. Those are the specific strategic instances I referred to. It’s an example of a disagreement between the army and the Supreme Court on the strategic aspect of a village (and whether to expel it as a result). It’s actually strengthening the point that expulsion was an exception, not the rule.
>Haifa is a good example of the feelings of the Yishuv towards their peaceful Arab neighbors. Causing the very flight described by the quote? >The example you gave for Iqrit, which was even condemned by the Israeli Supreme Court, is an example that there wasn’t a policy of expulsion, as it’s a specific instance of an Arab village located right on the border with Lebanon. Those are the specific strategic instances I referred to. It’s an example of a disagreement between the army and the Supreme Court on the strategic aspect of a village (and whether to expel it as a result). It’s actually strengthening the point that expulsion was an exception, not the rule. Destroying villages as a strategic policy is still a policy of expulsion
Not true. The Zionist plan was never to just immigrate to Palestine and live in peace with the native population. From the very beginning, since before the first boatload of Jews arrived in Palestine, their plan was to colonize the land. Of course the Palestinians fought back. https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/s/DGeefcrXSG
They bought the land legally even though under Islamic rule they had apartheid regime that claimed Jews not allowed to buy livable land . They obtain independence through political means for the most part. They helped their brothers and sister who were oppressed by the Palestinians. The native Judeans have managed to decolonize the British. I also don’t think 21 Arab countries should be dismantle even though Saudia Arabia is the only legitimate one and the rest obtained through colonialism. The Palestinians oppressed the Jews for hundreds of years. You can find massacres and rape and looting done by Palestinians hundreds of years prior to 1948. They had no rights oppressing Jews but they did it anyway. It comes with consequences. If any offspring of refugee would claim they want their grandfather home back the world would be in chaos. Why the Palestinians right is superior ? Nobody else has that claim. Not even Jews that been ethnically cleansed from every Arab country and most part of Europe. And if DNA or history don’t claim land the Palestinians have no right to any land by your logic.
Excuse me, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If you think Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous people of Israel, you are either listening to lies or are a dyed-in-the-wool antisemite. The fact that you're talking about Kenya as a potential Jewish homeland, which is something that antisemites love to talk about, is suspicious. Kenya was NEVER an option for a Jewish homeland as our ONLY home is Eretz Yisrael. Once in the 1800s, when Russian Jews were being ews lived in what is Israel and became the predominant ethnicity between about 3,000 B.C.E. until the Roman conquest at around the year 200 A.C.E. There was a genocide and mass expulsion, but enough Jews remained so that we were the majority in several cities - Tiberius, Tsafat, Acco - at various times until we began reclaiming the land (through purchase, not theft - sorry, antisemites) in the 1800s. It's important to realize that the reason there weren't more Jews wasn't because we didn't want to come, it was because we were often forbidden from emigrating there on pain of death, and when we did establish a foothold, pogroms and massacres devastated the Jewish community and drove out the small number of people who weren't killed. So the Arabs acquired Israel through conquest. In the 1880s, as mentioned, Jews arrived and began buying land.
1. The first true inhabitants of the Levant are long gone. You have defined the true indigenous people to be in the Iron Age to suit your ethnic interests. Unlucky for you, the Palestinians descend from those people. They actually have more DNA from this era than most Jews. 2. Palestinians adopting Arab culture doesn’t strip them from the land. No more than Northern Egyptians adopting Southern Egyptian Naqada culture did, Anatolians adopting Greek culture, and the Celtic French adopting Latin culture. 3. Theodor Herzl posited putting Israel in Kenya when it was offered to him. It is not antisemitic to say he once thought of it. I am saying the it wouldn’t be any different morally than the situation we have now. 4. Jewish presence in the region is not a get out of jail free card. If descendants of Palestinian refugees did what Israel did to the Palestinians in the distant future, continued Palestinian presence in the region and their attachment to the land wouldn’t make it okay. 4. Stripping the people whose ancestors lived in the Levant of that connection is anti Palestinian. It’s a disgusting sentiment. If you people actually respected that Palestinians were part that land and deserve to live there, then you would have the moral high ground. You don’t have the moral high ground, everything you accuse the Palestinians of doing you do too. No one cares about being called an antisemite when they don’t support your ethnic interests.
Never in the history of Zionism was there an official document, command, or anything actually that would support the claim that the Jews wanted to remove the natives. On the contrary.. the Zionist movement called for coexistence from the get go to its final document - the Israeli Declaration of Independence. The only reason the Palestinians today are stripped of most of the land originally proposed to them in the partition plan is that they repeatedly try to genocide and cleanse a population with a valid claim as well. There isn’t a single private land that the Zionist movement “stole”. It was all purchased according to legal standards, based on registered owners in the Ottoman public records that were accepted by the British, and the League of Nations. It’s also hard to argue that between the fall of empires public barren land belongs to any nation a-priori.
“We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country… expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”-Theodore Herzl \>>> It’s also hard to argue that between the fall of empires public barren land belongs to any nation a-priori. That’s a trail of tears argument, after all the Cherokee legally sold their land. It’s not a moral argument for buying up land and kicking off tenant farmers who were there for generations. If Israel was under a foreign power and descendants of Palestinians did to Jews what was done to them, the Jews would take it as a military act. They wouldn’t want to give up parcels of land that were completely Jewish to be ruled by Palestinians. There were strains of Zionism that wanted to incorporate the locals such as the Canaanism promoted by Yonotan Ratosh but it was far from dominant.
About the Herzl quote, you should look up the full quote. You know what? I’ll be nice and attach it to the bottom of this comment. As for the second part of your comment, I think you are mixing up public and private land. Public land was never purchased from anybody. It was nomansland. The Palestinians also claimed *all* of the *public* lands. The UN granted the Jews *some* of the public lands. To this the Palestinians opposed, with no real justification. It’s hard to argue that between the fall of empires *public* land belongs to any nation a-priori. Private land is a different story, and I think we’re having this conversation somewhere else on this thread lol. Private land was purchased legally, and there was no expulsion policy. To this you can respond on the other conversation we’re having in concurrently 😅 Here’s the full Herzl quote: “When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly … It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example … Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us.” I’ll add further context from an article I read, I’ll put the link in the bottom, it has some great sources. “”” The second half of the quote makes clear that Herzl wasn’t even contemplating forced expulsion of the Arab population. Moreover, as historian Efraim Karsh has observed, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Herzl believed in the forced transfer of Arabs – not in The Jewish State (1896), in his 1902 Zionist novel, Altneuland, “in his public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions”. The Financial Times journalist is imputing to the founder of modern Zionism (and, by extension, the Zionist movement more broadly) an appetite for ethnic cleansing based entirely on one meager and extremely unrepresentative sentence within a fuller quote, whilst completely ignoring the vast body of Herzl’s life’s work – which would of course contradict the desired conclusion. But, there’s something even more misleading about the intended inference of that quote. Here’s Karsh: “Most importantly, Herzl’s diary entry [from that day] makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine, and for good reason. A careful reading of Herzl’s diary entries for June 1895 reveals that, at the time, he did not consider Palestine to be the future site of Jewish resettlement but rather South America. “I am assuming that we shall go to Argentina,” Herzl recorded in his diary on June 13…Indeed, Herzl’s diary entries during the same month illustrate that he conceived all political and diplomatic activities for the creation of the future Jewish state, including the question of the land and its settlement, in the Latin American context. “Should we go to South America,” Herzl wrote on June 9, “our first state treaties will have to be with South American republics. We shall grant them loans in return for territorial privileges and guarantees.” Four days later he wrote, “Through us and with us, an unprecedented commercial prosperity will come to South America.” In other words, the ‘damning’ Herzl quote doesn’t even have anything to do with Palestine or Arabs. Moreover, the suggestion in the FT review that the story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of Jews attempting to supplant or ethnically cleans Arabs from the land is a historical inversion. Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation. The war against the nascent Jewish state in 1948 was not motivated by a desire to adjust the borders, but to annihilate Israel. Likewise, in 1967, in the lead-up to the war, Arab leaders did not speak of their desire to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but, rather, waxed eloquently about how this would be a war of annihilation. “”” https://camera-uk.org/2020/03/03/financial-times-book-review-promotes-distorted-herzl-quote/
That Herzl quote still mentions coercing people into leaving their lands. That is removing the natives, I never said violent displacement. Nor did you ask me to give an example specific to Palestine. What does it addressing the Arab population of Palestine or not have to do with anything? It was well known Herzl was practically minded and wasn't swayed by irredentism which is fundamentally emotional. It proves he intended to displace a people through coercion. Whether it be Palestine, China, or Bolivia. The attitude of being okay with displacement was seen when systemically they kicked out tenant farmers who had been there for generations. To transform a land that was majority Arab/another ethnicity into one that is majority Jewish would require displacement of sorts. \>>> Even if we leave Arab violence against and hatred of Jews (including the genocidal plans of the pro-Nazi Palestinian mufti) in pre-state Israel aside, Palestinians and Arab leaders have repeatedly tried to rid the land of Jews, whilst Zionist leaders have consistently sought compromise and accommodation. As I keep saying if descendants of Palestinian refugees moved into an occupied Israel/Palestine with the intention to turn much of the majority Jewish areas to majority Palestinian areas, it would be seen as a military act. Any attempt at accommodating the new arrivals would be seen as giving into to people who stole the land (in the moral not legal sense). As for your comments on one non democratically elected leader, I’m sure some members of Israeli paramilitary organizations wanting to ally with Nazis against the British, the Israeli funding of the Bosnian genocide, or it’s cozy relationship with South Africa represents Israel. But it’s more complicated than that right? Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians (and Jews living in the land) fought against the Nazis, likely for their own reasons. The enemy of the enemy is my friend is basic human nature .>>>> Public land was never purchased from anybody. It was nomansland. The Palestinians also claimed all of the public lands. The UN granted the Jews some of the public lands. To this the Palestinians opposed, with no real justification. It’s hard to argue that between the fall of empires public land belongs to any nation a-priori. Private land is a different story, and I think we’re having this conversation somewhere else on this thread lol. Private land was purchased legally, and there was no expulsion policy. To this you can respond on the other conversation we’re having in concurrently Modern nation states are a new concept, if the majority of people living on it didn't want to leave or be under the control of Israel, then it would be wrong to give it to Israel. Once again, if a descendants of Palestinian refugees did this if Israel/Palestine region was under a foreign power and being carved up, it would be interpreted by Jews as an act of aggression. As for our other comment chain- 1. I mentioned Iqrit to illustrate the disenfranchisement of Israel’s Arab citizens. They were not allowed to return. Neither were Israel’s other Arab citizens who were displaced during the war of 1948. Many want to return today. Meanwhile the return to properties for Jews is governed by totally different laws. 2. Arabs citizens had their lands seized after the war when they were kept under martial law, none of it was returned. On the Nakba being an ethnic cleansing- None of what you said about how Arab villages were classified justifies the collective punishment of displacing them and not allowing them to return even if they had no combatant history. Displacing an entire town and not allowing non combatants to return is considered a warcrime. Look at how the world considers permanently removing Gazans to be a war crime even if Hamas is imbedded in their infrastructure.Benny Morris had access to archives that are sealed today, even he called it an ethnic cleansing, he just justifies it as a lesser evil. The merits of that is not something I particularly care about.
“You people” implying Zionists implying the vast majority of Jews. Ew.
Actually, I was just referring to people who throw around the term antisemite such as the person who through it out for referring to the historical fact of Israel being posited to be created in modern-day Kenya. And yeah I see this as a bloodfeud in which Jews hands are far from clean. Many Jews seem to harbor what is anti Palestinian/Levantine sentiment while many Palestinians harbor anti Jewish sentiment. You will not be able to shame me into following your ethnic interests.
Add on: And I was also talking about people who try to strip the continous Levantine inhabitants of their connection to the land. If that is most Jews then so be it. It's a disgusting sentiment to have towards the continous inhabitants of a region since before the Iron age.
I don’t agree with the people who try to disconnect Palestinian/non-Jewish Levantines from the land. But there’s a certain strain of antisemitism circulating that Jews do not have an ancestral connection to that area which is used to erase Jewish history and contributes to the rising antisemitism in the world. Remember: regardless of the exact details and form it takes, Jew-hatred rising (which is objectively true) is indicative of societal decay and rot. Also thank you! Even though what you said is not accurate I do appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that you dislike basically the vast majority of Jews and all that entails.
Ancestral connection is not a get out of jail free card. Also, where does that leave Jewish groups, which primarily descend from converts? Or Bedouin wanderers, descendants of Armenian immigrants, etc. It encourages racial purity thinking. If descendants of Palestinian refugees did to Jews what was done to them, then it wouldn't be okay. What if Israel was under a foreign power and they moved in mass with the intent to turn majority Jewish areas Palestinian for a Palestinian state. What if they kicked off tenants who had been in their homes for generations after buying the homes from uncaring landlords and if they later wanted to hand majority Jewish areas to a Palestinian state, anticipating further immigration on both sides to increase their majority. I wouldn't consider those actions justified because of Palestinian Canaanite DNA or their cultural connection. If the majority of Jews support- Stripping Palestinians of the land they inhabited even if they had no combatant history if they support taking land from Israeli Arabs when they were under martial law if they support not allowing internal displace Arab citizens to return to their villages such as Iqrit if they support keeping Palestinians in Hebron under a suffocating system of checkpoints to live in the old city which isn't even in the same place as biblical Hebron and the majority of its buildings were built by the Mamluks Then I think that they have vile disgusting views. That doesn't mean I dislike them, nor does it mean I want them stripped of their humanity. "The other side has vile views, so I don't care about their suffering" is a large part of this mess. And even if I did dislike Jews it doesn't mean I support all that entails. Benny Morris and Ehud Barak both seemed to dislike Palestinians, it doesn't mean they support settler violence in the West Bank. Both Jews and Palestinians harbor anti Jewish and anti Palestinian sentiment against each other. One is not morally better than the other.
And people still say Jews have no history in the land 🤦♂️
and yet there are people who would claim that we're not indigenous to israel because of the diaspora or some bullshit like that
Brother Yaak, this historical record was created by the Canaanites to the Egyptians describing a horde of invading Hebrews. What more evidence would you like to see.
My results were similar
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I’d love to but it seems there are so many options here. Ancient and modern mixed modes, Periods, number of models, number of samples. Can you guide me in getting the info you’re looking for?
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Greetings sir! I could send you the coordinates if you’d like. Dm me
Amazing. Thanks for sharing. Glory to Israel.
Vomit
Damn. Now that’s a lineage to be proud of.
very cool!
Whats Your farmer dna ? / iron age and migration results ?
https://imgur.com/a/gZsVsJW What does this teach us?
You are essentially a mix of a few west Asian populations. Your natufian is much higher than the non Jewish Kurds, the Lor people, the Azeri people all over west Asia, Persians How ever compared to Levant Arabs your natufian is lower. An ancient Jew would have likely had more natufian than you, atleast by 10%. But different populations from west Asia at that same time would have less than you If you go see the period table and go through the populations, then go to the database and see the ratio of Hunter gatherer and farmer and you can see why they give you these %s od each population I’d guess your closest non Jewish populations would be Assyrians, Syrians, Lebanese, Chaldeans, and maybe a bit after comes Armenians and Palestinians
Some people Believe Iraqi Jews could be a sort of 50/50 split between Levantines and other West Asian populations, but im not really sure
Important to note. This person probably still has alot of Jewish Ancestry but they may have mixed with others in the thousands of years they lived in Exile.
Im not sure but if you do a g25/ vahaduo or post your Iron age/ migration periods aswell that could help. Im sure there are other people on here that know more about Jewish Farmer dna and could help you out.
But essentially Natufian is original Levantine dna. Most levantines get around 25% so i guess yours are pretty similar. Although it is higher in the Arabian Peninsula/ egypt (around 50%+) cause the bronze age levantine Canaanites themselves had dna from like iran/ the Caucuses.
That’s super interesting. I think for our DNA it’ll be a bit different because Nash Didan were essentially frozen in time since Babylonian times. They did not return to Judea after The Edict of Cyrus, but remained in the Babylon area for another ~2600 years. It was also a very isolated community. My grandma spoke Lishan Didan which is a dialect of spoken Aramaic. I think it makes sense that 35% is Bronze Age Caucasian (1700-3500BC) because that would be the abrahamic period, in which Abraham migrated from the Iraq area to Canaan
this is the most caananite ive seen from a jew. i usually see 30-40%
different jewish subgroups
Thanks for sharing, I don't think I've seen Nash Didan results before. What does your grandma get for closest modern populations?
Basically a mix of the Jews of the area (with some Assyrian) https://imgur.com/a/OBal62M
Yellow river? Like China?
Recently the content on this sub seems very organic and totally innocent 😌
Jew lol
I'm told all the time that genetic testing is illegal in Israel because of privacy laws and religious marriages. How is it that you took this test? Not asking to be hostile, it's just something that's on my mind a lot when people get political. אני יהודי אוי ואבוי
There is a law from the 1950s that was meant to prevent parental testing without a court order. This law reflects the complexity of balancing policy and religion in Israel. The reason for the law is to prevent finding bastards (people born out of wedlock) because according to the Torah a known bastard is not allowed to marry a Jew, and in the religious-secular status quo in Israel it was decided that the rabbinate will control marriage, so they made this law to prevent accidentally finding bastards which would prevent them from being religiously married (Israel does recognize civil marriages since 2010). So this law is essentially a relic from the past, before genetic testing was even invented. It’s been a breeding ground for antisemitic conspiracies, but anybody can order ancestry.com tests in Israel. I think myheritage don’t ship because they are an Israeli company so they go the extra mile, but it’s not really enforced for genetic testing which is why ancestry.com does ship to Israel.
Just a small translation note: the law was about mamzerim, children born from married women who did not have a get from beis din. Those who opposed Chacham Ovadya Yosef’s decision to consider Ethiopian Jews as halachically Jewish focused on the mamzer question because of differences in marriage traditions. The English word “bastard” has a much broader use and is much newer, and originally referred to a child conceived by a man and a woman other than his wife.
Interesting. I assume in this context it’s not a huge difference as this get from the bet din (you wrote beis din? I am guessing this is Yiddish pronunciation?) is traditionally given through Jewish marriage. But when I think of it, according to this definition children born in civil marriage should also be considered mamzerim? Because it doesn’t seem like the rabbinate enforces this, as Israel does recognize civil marriage. My guess is that they progressed a little bit, or more likely they just decided this is not the hill to die on. The political relationship between secular and religious Jews in Israel is contentious and complicated.
Children born in civil marriage would only be mamzerim if the mother had children from a previous Jewish man, as far as I know, and did not receive a get after the first man. Yes, yiddish.
Ohh you refer to a “get” as in גט, as in a Jewish divorce. I get it now. It was too similar to the English word that I didn’t realize lol
Thanks so much for the explanation. I'll be sure to use this information.
An anecdote, I have a family member who is a geneticist for a major hospital in Israel. She mentioned that Israel probably ranks one of the highest in terms of couples doing genetic testing due to the risk of genetic diseases for (mainly Ashkenazi) Jews. I'm not from Israel but most of my Jewish friends have done genetic tests with their partners for that exact reason.
That’s because lies spread like wildfire and you can only put them out one tree at a time. DNA tests are not widely available here, as in commercially, but 23andme still ships to Israel and the process is the same process as any other country. I am actually waiting for my results to come back. 😄
It's not an antisemitic rumor that spread. It's misinformation spread by the Israeli government. Those are two very different things, and the Israeli government *does* still require a court order, which can be thought of as analogous to a prescription that the court has to approve. In this instance, shrugging it off as antisemitic because of some old ancient law is not only flat wrong, it provides cover for a crooked government and leaves the question and answer ambiguously unclear. [Jerusalem Post 2019](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/want-to-fully-understand-your-family-genealogy-not-without-a-court-order-585230): >While millions of such kits have been sold in the United States, **Israelis are forbidden to buy ancestry DNA kits from the store without presenting a court order, as the Israeli government controls these types of purchases due to the "Genetic Information Law.**" > >"By law genetic information/genetic testing may require obtaining explanations from a doctor and informed consent to perform the test, and should be checked only in the laboratory by a genetic institute recognized and licensed. Such a thing can not exist kits sold directly to the public," the Ministry of Health told Israeli publication Yediot Aharonot. "Such kits are also highly criticized, for their reliability, for the interpretation of their results, and for possible effects on subjects and their families." > >The court order can be issued after thoroughly examining reasoning behind the test as well as overseeing the process is done corrected in a licensed fashion, by rule of law. The government uses these measures to protect the public so that insurance companies, private parties, et cetera won't misuse the private information for personal gain, as well as the national implications these tests could hold or affect with Israel being a government recognized Jewish-state. > >"I tried to get \[the ancestry kit\] in Israel, but I couldn't, I tried to send it to Israel and it didn't work, so on my trip to New York I just went to the drug store and bought it." Roi Latka told Yediot Aharonot. [Jerusalem Post 2021](https://www.jpost.com/health-science/dna-tests-helping-to-open-up-world-and-reunite-families-665202): >**Israeli law prohibits the purchase of a DNA test kit without a court order, so kits need to be purchased overseas.** > >“There are two companies willing to send DNA kits to Israel,” Helshtein explains. “The first is Family Tree, which claims to have 2.5 million samples of people’s DNA, and the test is done using a swab. A second company is 23andMe, which has 12 million samples, and the test is done by spitting into a tube. Then all you have to do is ship your sample directly to their lab, and your information is added to their database in the US. You can check your details online. > >“There’s another company called Ancestry that has a much larger sample base – 18 million – but they don’t ship to Israel. But you can use them if you have friends or family who can bring the kit with them to Israel.”
Yet you're looking at an Israeli's results?
Yet the article explains how that is possible. *Despite, and in accordance* with the very real Genetic Information Law that exists. That's not the point at all. The point is it's not antisemitic to point out a real law that exists and citizens and companies have to work around.
No the antisemitic part is when people claim the reason for the law is because Jews are "afraid" that the "truth" will come out that Jews don't have Levantine origins. I've heard it a lot. Doesn't make sense when you look at Jewish results. The obsession with Jewish "race" is common to every antisemitic conspiracy.
Have you look online how many tests are “illegal” around the world?
No I haven't, it's just something I'm repeatedly told in political subreddits that lends to some nutjob conspiracy about Israel.
simple: you were told wrong