This shows how far away Arabs are an Algerian Arab from north from the coast no SSA is considerably further away from a Frenchman from the north or Belgian and a northern Algerian is as close as a north German
Stfu its none of these. Why are you so offended? It’s only politically and linguistically that we’re lumped together. I can see your Iraqi, why identity with colonialism than being proud of being the ancestors of the birthplace of civilisation in the world and identifying as Mesopotamian?
But our identity is not the identity of Ancient Berbers or Mesopotamians, they are part of it sure, but we identity as Arabs, speak Arabic and feel close to other Arabs. It's not a genetic thing and never been. It's a feeling of identity that one cannot change.
Even when the evidence is in front of you, you still follow the crowd 🐑🐑🐑 Also kindly please keep to your lane, you’re literally Moroccan and Berber, you’ve barely anything to do with the levant or Mesopotamians, or even the Arabs, just only the language.
I know right, but I am just not comfortable with this whole neo berber identity. I've never spoken the language nor do I know anything meaningful about the culture.
I speak Arabic as my native tongue and for all I know have an Arab culture.
Even in Morocco we have black people who identify as Arab Moroccans and Moriscos from Spain who also identify as Arab Moroccans and none of both is less Moroccan than the other.
Genetics and Identity should be two separate things.
No, your culture is different. Firstly your food isn’t even the same. You eat a lot of Couscous, in the levant we eat barely any. Your genetics are different. The language is Arabic (which DOES NOT mean your Arab), your genetics is Berber and your culture is Moroccan. Book closed.
It’s the same for us. Our culture is different from Arabs, for example food: arabs eat different meals mostly made of a carnivorous diet, (loads of meat), we are more Mediterranean influenced and have lots of vegetarian meals, with some meat. Our traditional headwear is the tarboush, from the ottomans/turkey. Our architecture is Mediterranean influenced with lots of Ottoman and Renaissance influenced features with stone construction, as well as the red tiled roof, all commonly found across the Mediterranean, whereas Arabians have sandstone construction, small windows and flat roofs, we have large windows.
If you don't want to identify as such, be my guest and identify as a Canaanite and start speaking ancient Canaanites. For all I know, you're free to do so.
Don't tell me what I should identify as lmao.
I see being Arab as a cultural and linguistic thing, me having Arabic as my mother tongue and my cultural background being Moroccan. I see my self as an Arab.
I don't see myself as an Arabian, but as an Arab. I know my genetic background is north African but it doesn't not change the fact that my language and culture are Arab.
The fact your also calling it ancient canaanites tell me you don’t have a clue. It was Aramaic that we used to speak. There isn’t a language called “ancient canaanite”. We’re fine with Arabic. Speaking Arabic doesn’t mean you’re Arab. Just like Americans aren’t English because they speak English.
Most people in the Arab world identify as Arab knowing damn well they have another ethnic background and if that bothers you. I couldn't give a shit.
"Speak ancient Canaanite" was ironic because I know damn well there's no such thing.
Aramaic was the lingua franca of the levant not the only language, and there's no good reason for the people of the levant to suddenly start speaking Aramaic or any ancient levantine language again, so you could keep fantasising.
So if you know damn well why mention it in the first place? 😂 Arabic replaced Aramaic after the conquests. The funny thing is had the ottomans imposed the Turkic language early on, we’d probably be referred to as Turks today 😂😂😂😂
"mesopotamia" is a name given by outsiders (greek name) for that region, and the name Iraq was used for the same region even before Islam. in the end, it doesnt matter what name, it is still the same place.
anyways its not about pride but belonging. i have more in common with a syrian than turk.
when i say syrian i mean all of levant. anyways, im not arab either, but again it doesnt matter... im talking about the arab world as whole, which Iraq and Syria belong to.
You can really see the impact of Slavic settlement on Greece and the Turkic influence on western Turkey. This makes southern Italy look like an outlier for its geography in terms of similarity to Syria.
If you look at the similarity to Syria it strongly outlines the Fertile Crescent, which on e would have then trailed off gradually through Anatolia, the Aegean, Greece, and southern Italy.
Also, the genocide 1915 wiped out a huge amount of the original indigenous non-turkic inhabitants in Anatolia. I imagine that had a huge impact on the demographic distribution as well.
Yep, you can see patches of red up where modern Armenia is today. I imagine those are Armenians who cluster closely with Syrians genetically (based on what I've seen. I'm not a geneticist, just an enthusiast, so don't quote me on that, haha)
They’re the southernmost subset of Aegean islanders and the ones that have the least Slavic ancestry in all Greeks who are native to the borders of modern Greece
What I really mean is that if not for Slavic and Turkic influences in Greece and Turkey respectively, they would be just as close as southern Italy, Crete etc. and it would look clinal going west. It does not look that way now which shows the impact of Slavs and Turks.
Southern Italy in ancient times would’ve been closer prior to the Norman conquests also.
Ah, I see. That's interesting. So the Levant was quite close to Greece and Italy prior to the Arab conquests (considering Levant shifted southward, while southern Europe shifted northward, and they remain fairly close).
The Arab conquests did not impact the Levant all that much, except parts of Jordan.
What made Greece and Italy (and Turkey) further from the Levant than they otherwise would have been is the following:
1. Slavic input in Greece
2. Turkic input in Anatolia
3. Germanic input in Italy (this is the least impactful, hence their relative closeness)
But the Levantine Christians got significantly more ANF and less Natufian than the Muslims. 10% difference usually. The difference must be attributed to the Arab conquests, since the Christians are largely insular. But I agree that Greece received larger amounts of mixture, and that Turkic's East Eurasian components make a big impact even in smaller amounts.
>10% difference usually.
Where are you getting this from? Is it an amateur, non-study?
The studies say that Arabs did not affect the genetics of Lebanon. We can assume this means there probably was no great effect elsewhere, either
From IllustrativeDNA's database of course. This is what this sub is about, isn't it? Even the Lebanese show some difference in ANF and Natufian between the Christians and Sunnis, but the 10% figure was for southern Levantines, which is where I'm from.
There is definite Peninsular and Egyptian input in Levantine Muslims. Peninsular paternal haplogroups are also far more common in Muslims. This isn't a bad thing. I don't know why people on this sub act like southern input is bad, while northern one is good.
Maybe this is a silly question, but would there not also be some Slavic influence in Turkiye, being brought over by the Balkan Turks? Though I imagine the influence would be pretty small..
The entire Greek mainland is roughly the same color with the exception of the fringes of the southern Peloponnese which have low Slavic. My point was that there SHOULD be a clinal change from Anatolia -> Greece -> southern Italy, this is no longer the case. Looking at the map now, Greece looks like an outlier.
I actually am surprised that Saudi Arabia is not closer than it is. I would not expect Levantines in general and Arabians (even in ancient times) to be THAT different.
Not really mate 0.2 is still extremely close it’s just Europe and MENA are so interconnected when you look at any other people group 0.2 for them is sometimes only a few cities away
Imagine what the map would have been like before modern Sub-Saharan influences on North Africa, Slavic in Greece and the Balkans, and Turkic in Turkey. We would have seen more red.
Than Palestinians and Samaritans and Jordanians. Probably because Syrians have a lot more European and Anatolian and less natufian than southern Levantines. Also a very significant portion of Israelis are essentially Mesopotamians.
The average Palestinian and average Syrian are closer to each than the Israeli groups. In this case, the results of this Syrian is more Mesopotamian shifted and is overlap with mizrahi jews
not surprising that the levant is closest to Iraq/mesopotamia, but it seems they are also closer to kurds, iranians and turks than som north africans... prob not surprising either though
Time and time again, showing the exact same results and yet were thrown into this Arab identity when the results say we’re more Mediterranean influenced 😤
The genetic profile shifts so abruptly South of Palestine entering Sinai Egypt showing where the Sahara Desert Begins unlike the gradual slow variation North entering Turkey
i remember you. you were from homs and your results shifted eastwards enough to make everyoe assume you havd assyrian or iraqi ancestors. still interesting to see that the costal regions. italy greece cyprus are still very much close
This shows how far away Arabs are an Algerian Arab from north from the coast no SSA is considerably further away from a Frenchman from the north or Belgian and a northern Algerian is as close as a north German
indeed
What? I’m having a hard time deciphering what you mean?
“Arabs”. Perhaps it’s time to drop this false Arab identity.
"arab" is not genetic closeness retard - its an identity, culture and language edit: add history
Stfu its none of these. Why are you so offended? It’s only politically and linguistically that we’re lumped together. I can see your Iraqi, why identity with colonialism than being proud of being the ancestors of the birthplace of civilisation in the world and identifying as Mesopotamian?
But our identity is not the identity of Ancient Berbers or Mesopotamians, they are part of it sure, but we identity as Arabs, speak Arabic and feel close to other Arabs. It's not a genetic thing and never been. It's a feeling of identity that one cannot change.
Even when the evidence is in front of you, you still follow the crowd 🐑🐑🐑 Also kindly please keep to your lane, you’re literally Moroccan and Berber, you’ve barely anything to do with the levant or Mesopotamians, or even the Arabs, just only the language.
I know right, but I am just not comfortable with this whole neo berber identity. I've never spoken the language nor do I know anything meaningful about the culture. I speak Arabic as my native tongue and for all I know have an Arab culture. Even in Morocco we have black people who identify as Arab Moroccans and Moriscos from Spain who also identify as Arab Moroccans and none of both is less Moroccan than the other. Genetics and Identity should be two separate things.
No, your culture is different. Firstly your food isn’t even the same. You eat a lot of Couscous, in the levant we eat barely any. Your genetics are different. The language is Arabic (which DOES NOT mean your Arab), your genetics is Berber and your culture is Moroccan. Book closed. It’s the same for us. Our culture is different from Arabs, for example food: arabs eat different meals mostly made of a carnivorous diet, (loads of meat), we are more Mediterranean influenced and have lots of vegetarian meals, with some meat. Our traditional headwear is the tarboush, from the ottomans/turkey. Our architecture is Mediterranean influenced with lots of Ottoman and Renaissance influenced features with stone construction, as well as the red tiled roof, all commonly found across the Mediterranean, whereas Arabians have sandstone construction, small windows and flat roofs, we have large windows.
If you don't want to identify as such, be my guest and identify as a Canaanite and start speaking ancient Canaanites. For all I know, you're free to do so.
I identify as Levantine yes. Not Arab, and you should do too.
Don't tell me what I should identify as lmao. I see being Arab as a cultural and linguistic thing, me having Arabic as my mother tongue and my cultural background being Moroccan. I see my self as an Arab. I don't see myself as an Arabian, but as an Arab. I know my genetic background is north African but it doesn't not change the fact that my language and culture are Arab.
You’ve been brainwashed by pan Arabism put it simply. As I said earlier, even with the evidence in-front of your face, you will follow the crowd.
The fact your also calling it ancient canaanites tell me you don’t have a clue. It was Aramaic that we used to speak. There isn’t a language called “ancient canaanite”. We’re fine with Arabic. Speaking Arabic doesn’t mean you’re Arab. Just like Americans aren’t English because they speak English.
Most people in the Arab world identify as Arab knowing damn well they have another ethnic background and if that bothers you. I couldn't give a shit. "Speak ancient Canaanite" was ironic because I know damn well there's no such thing. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the levant not the only language, and there's no good reason for the people of the levant to suddenly start speaking Aramaic or any ancient levantine language again, so you could keep fantasising.
So if you know damn well why mention it in the first place? 😂 Arabic replaced Aramaic after the conquests. The funny thing is had the ottomans imposed the Turkic language early on, we’d probably be referred to as Turks today 😂😂😂😂
"mesopotamia" is a name given by outsiders (greek name) for that region, and the name Iraq was used for the same region even before Islam. in the end, it doesnt matter what name, it is still the same place. anyways its not about pride but belonging. i have more in common with a syrian than turk.
Cool and I agree, you do, but Syrian isn’t “Arab” either. So you have a belonging with Levantines, which is not disputable for the reasons discussed
when i say syrian i mean all of levant. anyways, im not arab either, but again it doesnt matter... im talking about the arab world as whole, which Iraq and Syria belong to.
You can really see the impact of Slavic settlement on Greece and the Turkic influence on western Turkey. This makes southern Italy look like an outlier for its geography in terms of similarity to Syria. If you look at the similarity to Syria it strongly outlines the Fertile Crescent, which on e would have then trailed off gradually through Anatolia, the Aegean, Greece, and southern Italy.
Also, the genocide 1915 wiped out a huge amount of the original indigenous non-turkic inhabitants in Anatolia. I imagine that had a huge impact on the demographic distribution as well.
It would have, yes. The people who once lived in western Anatolia were probably closer to Levantines than the people living there today would be.
If you mean the Roman period, they were autosomally quite similar to modern Greek Islanders so yes
Yep, you can see patches of red up where modern Armenia is today. I imagine those are Armenians who cluster closely with Syrians genetically (based on what I've seen. I'm not a geneticist, just an enthusiast, so don't quote me on that, haha)
I believe you are right actually. Dodecanese people are close to what the native western Anatolians were like.
Dodecanese?
They’re the southernmost subset of Aegean islanders and the ones that have the least Slavic ancestry in all Greeks who are native to the borders of modern Greece
But mainland Greece is just as red as the Arabian Peninsula on that map...
What I really mean is that if not for Slavic and Turkic influences in Greece and Turkey respectively, they would be just as close as southern Italy, Crete etc. and it would look clinal going west. It does not look that way now which shows the impact of Slavs and Turks. Southern Italy in ancient times would’ve been closer prior to the Norman conquests also.
Ah, I see. That's interesting. So the Levant was quite close to Greece and Italy prior to the Arab conquests (considering Levant shifted southward, while southern Europe shifted northward, and they remain fairly close).
The Arab conquests did not impact the Levant all that much, except parts of Jordan. What made Greece and Italy (and Turkey) further from the Levant than they otherwise would have been is the following: 1. Slavic input in Greece 2. Turkic input in Anatolia 3. Germanic input in Italy (this is the least impactful, hence their relative closeness)
But the Levantine Christians got significantly more ANF and less Natufian than the Muslims. 10% difference usually. The difference must be attributed to the Arab conquests, since the Christians are largely insular. But I agree that Greece received larger amounts of mixture, and that Turkic's East Eurasian components make a big impact even in smaller amounts.
>10% difference usually. Where are you getting this from? Is it an amateur, non-study? The studies say that Arabs did not affect the genetics of Lebanon. We can assume this means there probably was no great effect elsewhere, either
From IllustrativeDNA's database of course. This is what this sub is about, isn't it? Even the Lebanese show some difference in ANF and Natufian between the Christians and Sunnis, but the 10% figure was for southern Levantines, which is where I'm from.
Illustrative DNA isn't a scientific instrument at the end of the day.
There is definite Peninsular and Egyptian input in Levantine Muslims. Peninsular paternal haplogroups are also far more common in Muslims. This isn't a bad thing. I don't know why people on this sub act like southern input is bad, while northern one is good.
From his ass
Maybe this is a silly question, but would there not also be some Slavic influence in Turkiye, being brought over by the Balkan Turks? Though I imagine the influence would be pretty small..
There is, but it is less than what would be found in the Balkans itself and this would mostly be in western Turkey.
Because Syrians are distant from both groups.
The only "hotter" spots are Iraq, Iran, and Anatolia. Greece seems only a shade cooler than southern Italy until you're well into the mainland.
The entire Greek mainland is roughly the same color with the exception of the fringes of the southern Peloponnese which have low Slavic. My point was that there SHOULD be a clinal change from Anatolia -> Greece -> southern Italy, this is no longer the case. Looking at the map now, Greece looks like an outlier.
Yes, that makes sense.
I actually am surprised that Saudi Arabia is not closer than it is. I would not expect Levantines in general and Arabians (even in ancient times) to be THAT different.
The Arabians lack the ANF component. Even southern Levantines got 20-25% more Anatolian than Saudis.
That makes sense and explains it.
Well you’ve been lead astray. Stop grouping us to Arabs.
I missed the tiny bit of green in northern Scotland wow
You shouldn’t even take the last image into account. Anything over 0.10 is a huge distance.
Not really mate 0.2 is still extremely close it’s just Europe and MENA are so interconnected when you look at any other people group 0.2 for them is sometimes only a few cities away
Lmaoooo good one 🤣
Imagine what the map would have been like before modern Sub-Saharan influences on North Africa, Slavic in Greece and the Balkans, and Turkic in Turkey. We would have seen more red.
What is this website called?
f you have Coordinates, text @ [](/r/heatmapper25/) and he will do one for you
Syrians are genetically closer to the Israeli Jewish average than Palestinians
Syrians have lower Sub-Saharan ancestry, I believe.
Also lower natufian
Than Palestinians and Samaritans and Jordanians. Probably because Syrians have a lot more European and Anatolian and less natufian than southern Levantines. Also a very significant portion of Israelis are essentially Mesopotamians.
The average Palestinian and average Syrian are closer to each than the Israeli groups. In this case, the results of this Syrian is more Mesopotamian shifted and is overlap with mizrahi jews
Yeah only mizrahi Jews tho
Israeli Jew means the average of all Jews in Israel not just Mizrahi
No it also includes Azkenazi
not surprising that the levant is closest to Iraq/mesopotamia, but it seems they are also closer to kurds, iranians and turks than som north africans... prob not surprising either though
And as far away from Arabians as Eastern Europe is. So why are we still called Arabs?
Why are u making it a big deal?
Very interesting, where did you get these done from? I'm interested in doing mine.
Just text @ r/heatmapper25 and he will do one for you ;)
How do you guys get such heatmaps?
If you have Coordinates, text @ r/heatmapper25 and he will do one for you ;)
Thank you <3
why is adana blue?
why is adana blue?
High turkic dna
This Syrian is Mesopotamian shifted. Also it seems like the average “Israel Jew” are taken from Mizrahi Jews samples
Some Turks of a certain political inclination may be shocked to see this. Edit: Some Germans of a similar inclination would be as well.
Why would Germans be shocked exactly? Do you have any idea how huge the distances are? The light green is like 0.18 distance.
Time and time again, showing the exact same results and yet were thrown into this Arab identity when the results say we’re more Mediterranean influenced 😤
The genetic profile shifts so abruptly South of Palestine entering Sinai Egypt showing where the Sahara Desert Begins unlike the gradual slow variation North entering Turkey
Exactly, which proves we’re (levantines) literally got very little to do with Arabia and more closely related with southern Italy, Turkey & Cyprus
It’s so interesting how Syrians plot closer to Greeks rather than Egyptians
bc the natufian in SSA and egyptians diverges them from syrians who have very little SSA and a lot less natufian
it makes perfect sense yet we’re still considered “arabs”
Being Arab has nothing to do with genetics.
I see they are multiple Syrian on the map which one of those is graphed?
These are my personal results
i remember you. you were from homs and your results shifted eastwards enough to make everyoe assume you havd assyrian or iraqi ancestors. still interesting to see that the costal regions. italy greece cyprus are still very much close