Like you say, the production timeline doesn't seem to matchup. But the powerlevel for Kamigawa was *conspicuously* low; it wasn't just lower powered compared to Mirrodin, it was a really, REALLY low power block in general, with insane outliers that seemed accidental. This naturally led people to draw comparisons between it and Masques block, which was the original "we need to power down magic or the game will die" block.
The production timeline doesn't add up for Kamigawa to be a reaction to Mirrodin's power level in the hands of players, but it's highly likely that it was still lower power as a direct response to Mirrodin's power level.
The idea of Standard is to create an environment where power creep isn't the only way to make new cards playable. Standard sets have a default power level that remains relatively constant over time. The previous three blocks--Invasion, Odyssey, Onslaught--all had pretty similar power levels. Making a new block at an intentionally higher power level is a frequent, intentional choice, as is the decision to power down the following set *below* normal to balance things out.
This is echoed in the other ways that Mirrodin and Kamigawa are opposites. Mirrodin was a bottom-up, mechanics-first set that changed some paradigms of Magic design. Mirrodin's setting, while alien, was directly tied to the previous three blocks' story, covering the end of the Mirrari (awakened into Memnarch) and what Karn did with Urza's spark after the Invasion. In contrast, Kamigawa was a clean break from Magic thus far, a place that knew nothing of Urza nor Phyrexia. While this wasn't obvious in the cards themselves, it was also temporally isolated, taking place long before Toshiro Umezawa's descendant made his way to a strange place called Dominaria. Every emphasis, mechanical and story wise, is reversed between the two blocks. The one trait they share is, annoyingly, being mechanically insular from the blocks on either side of them.
My guess is that Mirrodin was intended to be a *little* more powerful than the three previous blocks, but was accidentally a *lot* more powerful (to this day, I'll always wonder if Standard would have self-corrected if cards like [[Granulate]] hadn't been specifically crafted to spare the Artifact Lands). Kamigawa had always been intended to be below the curve on power level, but wound up *starkly* lower because Mirrodin was so high. But the power level difference was only one facet of how these two blocks were always intended to be opposites.
> The idea of Standard is to create an environment where power creep isn't the only way to make new cards playable. Standard sets have a default power level that remains relatively constant over time. The previous three blocks--Invasion, Odyssey, Onslaught--all had pretty similar power levels. Making a new block at an intentionally higher power level is a frequent, intentional choice, as is the decision to power down the following set below normal to balance things out.
This was also seen more recently with Original Ixalan block, which had a sharp power down from the previous sets, but was fairly close to the ravnica sets that followed (until WAR hit at least).
I wouldn't say it was much higher powered. Goblin Bidding was probably the most powerful Standard deck across the three formats, but there were monsters like Psychatog and Overabundance in the previous blocks.
For its time? Maybe if you compare it to Odyssey and Masques, but it was much weaker than Onslaught or Urza's.
Battle of Wits made top 8 with Invasion in standard.
True urzas was one of the powerful sets ever printed even by today's standards. However invasion block printed enough to be as good or stronger then onslaught
Honestly with Masques its equally debatable about how much of a direct reaction it could have been to Urza's Block with them running on roughly the same timeline. It could have been a reaction to Tempest but that wouldn't make that much sense as Tempest is generally seen as kinda hitting the sweet spot.
Masques was explicitly a reaction to the power level of Urza's block. Urza block came out just as the acquisition deal with Hasbro was being finalized. The heads of Magic R&D were infamously called into the C suit offices of Hasbro during Combo Winter to explain exactly why they were destroying the brand equity of the new acquisition's greatest product line and what they were going to do to fix it.
For many years (maybe even still, not sure if it was shed when Play Design began), the internal testing league for in-development sets within the Standard environments they would exist in was called the Future Future League. Why two futures? Because the Future League was where they'd playtested Urza block, and it was clear that that hadn't worked out. So they extended development time, knocking out a low power, low complexity block that was light on unifying themes (Mercadian Masques block) while they worked on an actual masterpiece (Invasion block). So the Future League tested Masques while the Future Future League tested Invasion and all the sets that followed.
You've got to remember that Magic was a lot smaller back then. It was much easier to get everything printed and distributed on time with a much shorter windup because there was just so much *less* of it. In addition to smaller print runs, most years contained 4 sets sold in a single type of booster/box and a few preconstructed decks to go with them.
The card I always think of is [[Yomiji, Who Bars the Way]]. This card:
* Has a drawback in the Legendary supertype. Remember, this is before Commander was a well-known format, let alone one designed for. Legendary was pure drawback.
* Only rewards players who fill their deck with other cards that have the same drawback.
* Is symmetrical, meaning it can theoretically help your opponents.
* Is a 4/4 with no keywords for 7 mana.
* Only generates advantage in a fairly specific scenario, even if you've spent 7 mana on it and jumped through the deck building hoops.
Even in 2004, a normal set would likely have costed Yojimi at 3WW and made the ability only affect its controller. If it were printed now, it would probably be all of the above (maybe even cost 4W) and have Vigilance and Lifelink.
Funny enough, I've played him before. I lost. He definitely championed Gnarled Mass as the super secret tech back in the day. Great deck designer, even if Gnarled Mass does suck.
Mike Flores apparently played it but that's all I can find. It lined up well in combat against the white weenie and monoblack decks.
Here's the article where he explains his tech: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/critical-mass/
And here's the article where he mentions that he cut it: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/2005-championship-deck-challenge-tuned-decks-part-i-critical-mass-update/
>”Gnarled Mass is actually great in every matchup and I wish I played more main.”
Into calling the deck
> now with 100% fewer “critical” Gnarled Masses
Is peak mtg article comedy. Dude didn’t know how to fill in the last 4 cards and just chose an on rate vanilla filler.
There was a Kamigawa block constructed PTQ season. If you weren't playing Gifts Control, you were doing it wrong. I got my first PTQ top 8 with that deck despite not really knowing what I was doing, then got crushed in the mirror by someone who did know what they were doing.
IIRC, mono-white aggro with Jitte & Charge Across the Araba could hang, albeit as a side effect of most people tuning their decks for control vs. control matchups rather than anti-aggro.
Top was in the same set as Gifts, [[Sakura-Tribe Elder]], and [[Kodama's Reach]] (for block constructed, [[Time of Need]] and [[Journeyer's Kite]], too. Yes, Kite was playable in Block). The top decks of the time would have a crazy amount of shuffle effects before they started considering Top.
Honestly, Kamigawa had a solid 20 or so really good constructed cards, beyond just Jitte.
The legendary dragons, specifically white, blue, and Black (Kokusho, Yosei, Keiga), Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Gifts Ungiven, Sensei's Divining Top, Pithing Needle, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Kodama's Reach, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Ghostly Prison, A whole host of really good legendary lands. A bunch of good standard-playable aggressive cards like Genju of the Spires, Zo-Zu the Punisher.
Honestly, Kamigawa-Mirrodin standard involved plenty of cards from Kamigawa.
The reason Kamigawa was considered a "low power" set had less to do with the top end of cards (which were fine), and more to do with the bottom end of cards (which were...not fine).
It's got a whole theme centered around spirit and arcane spells. Arcane spells never got any support ever. Spirits had basically zero support in surrounding blocks, and were never a tribe again until Innistrad. So basically the core mechanics of the block were very unattractive to anyone wanting to build for...basically anything past block constructed. Including tons of hate cards against spirit and arcane which have like...zero use outside of Kamigawa Block such as \[\[Psychic Spear\]\], \[\[Rend Spirit\]\], \[\[Sideswipe\]\], \[\[Hisoka's Defiance\]\], \[\[Field of Reality\]\], \[\[Minamo's Meddling\]\], \[\[Nine-ringed Bo\]\], and \[\[Kitsune Diviner\]\].
These at least had a storyline reason to exist--Kamigawa had a war between the spirit realm and the mortal realm. But the result was super narrow removal that nobody really wanted to put in their decks.
But then there were the really bad draft cards which don't really have a good explanation. Don't get me wrong...people were used to seeing bad cards that only exist for draft, but for some reason bad Kamigawa's draft cards were like super duper extra bad for no clear reason with cards like \[\[Harsh Deceiver\]\], \[\[Kumano's Pupils\]\], \[\[Kami of Tattered Shoji\]\], \[\[Orbweaver Kumo\]\], \[\[Shinen of Fear's Chill\]\], \[\[Deathcurse Ogre\]\], \[\[Fiddlehead Kami\]\], \[\[Kumano's Blessing\]\], \[\[Ashen Monstrosity\]\], \[\[Thoughtbind\]\], \[\[Dosan's Oldest Chant\]\], \[\[Thousand-legged Kami\]\], \[\[Crawling Filth\]\], \[\[Kashi-Tribe Warriors\]\], \[\[Takeno's Cavalry\]\], \[\[Mastu-Tribe Birdstalker\]\].
There are good cards... and there are insanely good cards. Jitte is on a completely different level compared to most of the cards you listed. But I agree, there are plenty of good cards, but the set was filled with trash, and on the heels of a completely broken Mirrodin block. But when people talk of a insanely broken card from Kamigawa block.... the easy go to card is Jitte.
Kamigawa honestly does not feel very weaker than onslaught sets.
Mirrodin is the outlier being stronger than most sets of the era. This is mostly due to artifact lands and cost reduction keywords like affinity.
It depends on what you mean by that.
If you mean did they quickly adjust the power level in response to the reception of the previous block? Unlikely, for precisely the reason you mentioned: production pipelines tend to be too long, and making last-minutes changes isn't really possible if you want to have everything printed, packaged, and ready to ship in time.
However, they *do* proactively design blocks around each other, and it's entirely conceivable that they intentionally designed Kamigawa to be a lower power than Mirrodin *from the start*. Just to avoid constant power inflation, it can be a good idea in design to oscillate a little bit and not end up in a one-up spiral where you feel you have to beat the previous product in power all the time. So there could well be a design intent for lower power *without* that being a reactionary ripcord like people sometimes make it out to be.
Yeah thats what seems more likely to me, that Kamigawa was always intended to dial things back, it just unintentionally was also one of those blocks that didn't quite work out so it made it a lot easier to point out the differences.
I'd also dispute the impression that Kamigawa "didn't work out".
It was a fine format. Limited was fine. Block Constructed was great (aside from the little wrinkle that was Jitte). It had a fun Standard. Its mechanics were interesting and fun - to the point that ninjutsu has become a bit of a staple even in supplementary sets because people like it so much.
It suffered from having a terrible 3rd set, but you if you look at things during that time period, you'll find that... most blocks did. Part of the reason they abandoned block structures starting with the 3-set size was that the final set just always kind of missed the mark. Fifth Dawn was complete garbage, too, so it's not like the almighty Mirrodin block was immune to this, either.
Kamigawa mostly suffered from bad timing. The destruction that Clamp and Ravager wrought on Magic as a whole cannot be understated. It's no exaggeration to say it nearly killed the game. ANYTHING would have looked like a used moist towelette in comparison, and it really wasn't Kamigawa's fault per se that they somehow couldn't pull that particular cart out of the mud instantly and miraculously.
From a power level or limited perspective sure it might have been a step down or whatever but as a13 year old into kitchen table and cafeteria magic I remember it very fondly, mirrordin was allready super cool and now we have all this colored mana stuff showing up and the plain radically changing, it was super neat
I get the reasons for doing away with blocks, the supply of 3rd set cards were way lower so that was always annoying but mechanically, thematically and story wise it was so good, I could wax poetically about scourge or fifth dawn now allmost 30 years later
I saw [[Bringer of the Red Dawn]] and I was in love. Just had to cast my [[Seething Song]] to search out 5 mountains from my deck and next turn... bam! This fatty is coming down.
Btw yes that's not how Seething Song works and I haven't done that since I was like... 8. At the time though I didn't understand why anyone would play [[Kodama's Reach]] over the "red ramp" lol.
[Bringer of the Black Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54e5e882-02d4-4d69-aabf-ae9bf31f2923.jpg?1562877079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20Black%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/43/bringer-of-the-black-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54e5e882-02d4-4d69-aabf-ae9bf31f2923?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They had to adjust the power level of Fifth dawn because of how strong mirroring and darksteel were, so there was plenty of time to lower kamigawa's power level.
Was Mirrodin's powerlevel intentionally high, or was it an unintended consequence of being mostly colorless (all decks look the same) and all the mistakes around affinity? Was Mirrodin deemed stronger than Onslaught? Was Kamigawa weaker than Onslaught? Because of the card designs or because of the easy-to-achieve tribal synergies?
Yup, some of Kamigawa's mechanics were egregious, like sweep returning all your lands to hand. However... was that so different (in spirit) from Arcbound Ravager eating all your lands?
I think part of OG-K's problem is that we went from "wohoooo tribal!" to "wohoooo artifacts!" to "dude, WTF?" to "wohoooo multicolor!".
> Was Mirrodin's powerlevel intentionally high
Yes. It was the first set with the new card design and they dont wanted to risk low sales numbers.
> Was Mirrodin deemed stronger than Onslaught?
Mirrodin was deemed to be the strongest set since Urza Block.
> Was Kamigawa weaker than Onslaught?
Kamigawa was the weakest set since Mercadian Masques.
> Because of the card designs or because of the easy-to-achieve tribal synergies?
Because of rate. Things like Soulshift were worthless because they printed them on 4 mana 2/2 creatures.
Kamigawa was so egregious that i quit magic for years. (After playing since Ice Age.)
Soulshift was a limited mechanic, come on now. This is like complaining that Bushido wasn't viable in constructed. (Though I tried!)
There were lots of solid constructed cards in the block that were fine in standard and extended and were the backbones of certain archetypes. It didn't have one omnipresent linear deck based on a block mechanic, but no block that has [[Isamaru, Hound of Konda]], [[Gifts Ungiven]], [[Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker]], [[Sakura Tribe Elder]], [[Blazing Shoal]], [[Pithing Needle]], [[Ebony Owl Netsuke]], and, of course, [[Umezawa's Jitte]] can really be called "egregiously underpowered."
Yes but the first "real" Magic set after 8th Ed. was Mirrodin. Core sets were intentionally powered down and simplified compared to the main sets because they were meant to be more introductory products from what I remember.
I just think it's quite a stretch to say that the power level of Mirrodin was intentionally higher because of the card frame change when it wasn't actually the first set to use it.
I agree on that. I also don't really think anyone needed that much convincing about the new frame. I just wanted to clarify that it was the first mainline set to use the new frame so if that was their logic it could have been Mirrodin that got pushed rather than 8th edition which was as mentioned a core set and those were normally on the weaker/simpler side.
I actually think Mirrodin was a mix of bad design choices that they didn't notice at the right time to fix it, a lack of understanding of how powerful the affinity mechanic actually was, and a few very strong cards that absolutely butchered competitive play and pushed everything else out of the format. And I think none of that was based on the frame change.
I think they intended it to be maybe slightly powerful but not what it was. I think Kamigawa was intended to be a little weaker but not what it was because Bushido and Soulshift were aggressively overvalued mechanics when you looked at what you paid for in comparison to Affinity or Modular.
4 for a 2/2 with upside wasn't a terrible rate back then.
The only 2/2 for 2 with upside in Odyssey was [[Wild Mongrel]]. Every else had downside (like [[Phantom Whelp]]) or was more expensive (like [[Aven Archer]]).
Kamigawa was weaker than Mirrodin and Onslaught, but was on par or stronger than Odyssey, Invasion, and Masques.
I don't think the timelines were as rigid or spaced out as they are today. Notably, MaRo has said that Mercadian Masques was intentionally toned down in response to the backlash from Urza's Saga's high power level and them getting chewed out for how unbalanced that was. Champions was closer in time to Masques than the first instance I had heard Forsythe mentioning the 2 year design / development gap , which was in the early M Core set era.
The more flexible timelines, combined with their discovery of the power level issues in testing after Mirrodin and Darksteel went to print could line up with some intent to tone down Champions before we even knew it was a problem. Even then, we still got Jitte out of that block.
> Champions was closer in time to Masques than the first instance I had heard Forsythe mentioning the 2 year design / development gap
In the skullclamp article, they talked about how they were trying to print answers in Kamigawa for clamp before mirrodin came out.
I don't know why you were downvoted, this is correct. MaRo has said on his podcast multiple times that Mirrodin and Darksteel being so strong directly influenced Fifth Dawn being weaker.
Yep. People on here are forgetting (or maybe don't know) that the FFL exists. They would have been playtesting Mirrodin-Kamigawa standard during development of Kamigawa block, even though Mirrodin hadn't yet come out. They knew the first two sets were busted by that point, even though it was too late to change them.
I think a big part that doesn't get enough credit is how successful the mechanics were in Mirrodin compared to Kamigawa. Modular and affinity are both powerful and very understandable for players and equipment was so good it instantly went core. On the flip side Kamigawa had rares devoted to epic, offering, and bushido. Complicated mechanics that never really worked so a bunch of the rares were simply unplayable.
I think rather than a reaction both Kamigawa and Mirrodin were big risky experimental sets. It's just that Mirrodin worked and Kamigawa did not. It very easily could have been the other way around.
The size of Magic at the time and a lot of other issues aren’t being considered when people are answering this. First, Mirrordin was broken essentially at launch and only got worse when Darksteel in January/February came out. Second, sets usually don’t go to print until 60 to 90 days before release. A complete overhaul wasn’t possible but emergency surgery had plenty of time. An easy fix to lower power levels is to increase mana costs and if you look at many Kamigawa cards their mana cost seems higher than it should be.
I think it’s important to also recognize that Kamigawa was probably already designed to be weaker than Mirrodin from the start but not as weak as we ended up.
As others have flagged, I’m not sure the timelines match up. I think most of Kamigawa would’ve already been done. Besides that, there are two points to flag:
1. It’s pretty clear mirrodin was an accident in terms of power level. Famously they didn’t even think about skullclamp in affinity or goblins decks, instead testing it in the underpowered white weenie build. That they also had to basically ban an entire set mechanic from standard speaks to that.
2. Kamigawa’s central theme was supposed to be legends. Back in ye old days creatures were generally weaker and less flashy. So it makes sense that an artifact set would be more powerful than a big flashy creature set.
MaRo has said multiple times that power levels between sets purposely fluctuate up and down in order to balance the Standard/Limited environment. So while Kamigawa was too soon to be a direct reaction to Mirrodin, it could have been a general lowering of the power level after Mirrodin was a purposeful heightening.
Just a thought.
They didn’t know at the time but despite the vibes being good, the design goals of the block turned out to be mostly bad design goals. They don’t set those goals anymore. It took them too long to see this and blamed the wrong thing for a while I think but they figured it out. Onboard complexity and parasitic mechanics were way too dense.
I don't think sets at the time were designed as far ahead as they are now. I feel like I remember reading articles about how later designs in mirrodin block were affected by what they were seeing happen in standard by the start of mirrodin block.
People saying the production timeline doesn’t matchup are wrong. Mark has talked a bunch of times on his podcast about Fifth Dawn being really difficult to design because they knew at that point Mirrodin was broken and had to lean away from artifacts and try to give it a new identity with things like color matters. There was definitely enough time to power down Kamigawa
Kamigawa was weak because like Mirrodin, it was a highly experimental set. A lot of the set explored unrefined and unknown mechanical territory, so it was hard to gauge its power level.
They do internal testing long before a set comes out. They knew Mirrodin block was busted before it released and soon enough to make changes to Kamigawa block but not soon enough to make many changes to Mirrodin block itself.
They did make changes to Fifth Dawn, though. It shares so few mechanics with the rest of the block because they needed to tone things down a bit.
MaRo has talked about this concept in general and Mirrodin/Kamigawa specifically many times on his podcast and written articles. I suggest you take a look at those if you want to learn more about it from the source.
Back then they "linked" blocks with the last set and the first set, Odyssey-Torment-Judgement linked this last one to Onslaught with the Tribal thematics which was the common trope during all OLS (Onslaught - Legions - Scourge). And to be honest, the power level was in a continuous proportional incremental slope since Apocalypse, when we had multi color fest #1, this power level continued to OTJ then OLS and then the link with Mirrodin was very subtle in terms of Tribal (few and sparce tribal elements) but the artifacts were busted and the culprit was Darksteel not Mirrodin itself.
They learned to some extent during Darksteel and watered down Fifth Dawn a little bit, it wasnt as busted as the previous two sets. By the time Kamigawa was in the workshop, Mirrodin as a Block was concluding with Fifth Dawn.
Lots of people were disappointed with Kamigawa back then, from the set concept (japanese folkclore) to the art direction and the game mechanics; this disappointment was the second hit to the player base after the bannings during Darksteel-Mirrodin.
And to be honest, thanks urza for Richard Garfield helping with OG Ravnica: City of Guilds. After Kamigawa, lots of people were afraid, I for one bought nothing from Kamigawa but when Ravnica hit the shelves, it was a revitalizing shot.
I think the aftermath aftermath (kek) gives us a good idea of what time frames they work with for printing and packaging. Between mom:a and otj they managed to cut the big score epilogue boosters and add them as a bonus sheet. (Assassins creed doesn't count, because of UB-ip contracts) I imagine they could have designed more cards to round out the set but didn't because it was more cost/time efficient to give us more bonus sheets. And the latter apparently was still preferable to scrapping the print entirely.
Thats interesting because its also about a year between those sets and we can see that they didn't really have time to change the fundamentals of the cards and just had to rush to cram a subset of them awkwardly into bonus sheets. It suggests that on a 12 month timeframe there is still time to reorganize the content of a booster pack, but not really do redevelopment of a whole set.
Personally I think they needed a lot less lead time when developing sets at the time. They only made 4 sets per year at during this time with one being a core set consisting of only reprints. Print runs where also a lot smaller so printing the set after development was done woulnd't take as long as it currently does.
So I really wouldn't be surprised if they actually did make changes to the kamigawa block in response to the power level of mirrodin (darksteel and fifth dawn would probably be to short). If this is actually the case is another question of course.
I think kamigawa was lower power because they tried to do a lot of unique mechanics to fit the musical feeling kamigawa has. Picking up lands as a major tribal mechanic really didn’t work out so well. I just think it was a lack of understanding imo, but that’s just speculation.
Wasn't Mirrodin the second time ever that R&D was called into the Vice President's office to be yelled at? As in, "You're all going to be fired if this keeps up."
I think getting a dressing-down from your boss would prompt some swift and decisive action, production pipeline be damned.
It’s possible they first realized they just how overpowered they had made Mirrodin & Darksteel in the Future Future League for Fifth Dawn or Kamigawa and were already pulling back. FFL was them testing standard 12 months into the future. (And they mentioned the original Future League, 6 months into the future, was not long enough to actually fix problems. It was long enough only find them.)
Thinking about the real world timeline: Champions of Kamigawa came out September 18, 2004 so its future future league testing would have started happening in September 2003. Mirrodin would release on October 2, 2003. So given that 12 - 6 month lead window to change things I think they could have reacted to the public interacting with Mirrodin and tweaked Champions. Though Skullclamp wouldn’t be banned until June 2004 and Arcbound Ravager and artifact lands wouldn’t be banned until March 2005.
Kamigawa's a block I've learned to appreciate much more over the years, because it's become a bit opposite of what the narrative is about it.
That said, there were a few design philosophies that really hurt it at the time, and it's biggest problem is one that's a bit understated: Kamigawa cards play best when good mana fixing is available, but they tried to force things to be mono-color. It especially hurt with the strong color commitments when Mirrodin was all colorless with no need for color commitment at all.
Nowadays, as every year has good fixing, I had found Kami block is generally the best block to play with new cards with if an environment gets stale. It just supports a large sundry of strategies without being too overpowering. It's mechanics are also surpringly anti-linear (it's generally best to only play one card with epic, splice, etc than to fill a deck up), so the poorly received mechanics don't actually matter that much. Likewise, fatties like Meloku and Yosei offer combo potential, so powercreep stats don't matter that much either.
In terms of development, there's some notable known nerfs. The Zubera got bumped up to 1/2 two mana critters from one mana 1 toughness critters just due to the existence of Skullclamp. Splice onto Arcane is a thing probably due to Storm originally coming out at the beginning of development for the block.
I had heard the the Kamigawa block was heavily influenced by the L5R card game, which wotc had until they sold it in 2000. Then 4 years later we get Kamigawa, which fell in line with the development cycle of ~3 years at the time. So it might have just been an experimental power level based on the setting.
If any of it is even true. https://imgur.com/a/DT47lCU
it might have been a factor, but given how little synergy there was inbetween the 2 blocks ( no tribal support, poor color fixing), i would hope they haven't intentionally made it shit.
I played at that time as a casual and it was painful to see how even kids playing with piles of commons couldn't really get much out of kamigawa, my RW samurai deck felt so much weaker than just jamming in some savannah lions and mirrodin equipments. I cry for all the poor souls who got baited into playing 5 color spirits with next to no mana fixing available.
Mirrodin was busted, i guess because they were trying to make very weird artifacts and they were worried they could underperform or feel boring.Also players were ready to see MtG dying for the 12th time because gray artifacts were too ugly compared to brown ones.
WotC said that they ran out of time during the creation of Kamigawa because it was their first time doing a set based on real world flavour. My theory is that they intentionally powered down a lot of the set to save time on playtesting as they got closer to the deadline.
Interesting. It's hard to say if it was a reaction Aka Mirrodin came out destroyed everything in constructed and then they panicked and powered down Kamigawa or if it was always intended aka Mirrodin was designed and clearly going to be powerful and they scaled back on the next release during the design process to manage powercreep over time which was something they kept in mind.
That said even when MaRo and others talk about designing years ahead there is the possibility to do certain things for example Aftermath was printed in May of 2023 and 11 months later they managed to change the composition of Thunder Junction packs to avoid having Epilogue boosters for that set so a 1 year gap isn't necessarily an impossible job for them to change stuff around within if it were deemed necessary.
It wasn't a reaction because sets are designed two years in advance of their release. It was an intentional power-down because Mirrodin was very pushed.
For example, they wanted to make artifacts more powerful for just a block as a block theme, so they printed cards like [[Sword of Fire and Ice]] and [[Chrome Mox]], and they were rares because there was no such thing as Mythic, and cares like [[aether vial]] and [[isochron scepter]] which in terms of power and complexity would make sense as rares, at uncommon.
I think MaRo has said that they have since changed their approach to modulating power level since then.
Affinity was ridiculously strong right out the gate, then Skullclamp came out in Darksteel (2nd set of Mirrodin block) and made matters worse. Skullclamp is known to have had a last-minute change to be +1/-1 without realizing the implications, so last minute changes were known to happen at this time to a greater extent than in the current era. WotC probably got the message pretty quickly that they had messed up. However, I think they also just genuinely had a difficult time balancing artifacts and preventing them from showing up everywhere. Two of the most memorable cards from Kamigawa block were Sensei’s Divining Top and Umezawa’s Jitte, another pair of imbalanced artifacts. This was well before the Play Design team, so they would often just miss on power level. Another example in Kamigawa was Gifts Ungiven, which was Mark Rosewater’s redesign of Intuition that was still overly powerful. Maro is very good at making interesting, unique, and fun designs but balancing is not his strong suit, so you would often get overtuned cards, especially when not everything had been done before and costs were difficult to evaluate. It is pretty clear that Gifts is a fair bit more powerful than even Fact or Fiction at the same cost.
Two things here. Pretty much the same thing as with Masques block.
First, yes, Kamigawa was a necessary "reset" to the power creep that was occuring. Standard power creep had gone insane resulting in a necessary ban wave and it simply wasn't sustainable. They needed to bite the bullet and just...reset somewhere. They couldn't really go up anymore.
However, on top of that, kamigawa is just a poorly designed and developed block...
It has legit some of the worst keywords and mechanics in MTG's whole history. Like, who's accountant thought SWEEP was a fun mechanic...? And Epic is likely the single worst mechanic in all of MTG ever - It either functionally wins or loses the game outright, without actually ending the game so you still have to go through the motions for several more turns, except the game is in a very literal sense unplayable - one of the players can't cast spells anymore. So either the Epic effect outright wins the game by itself (like enduring ideal locks) or you just lose and just cannot do anything. Just legit terrible.
The power you do find in these sets is also mostly in all the wrong places. Sensei's Divining Top is so "fun" even many of the people playing it were happy when it was banned... Kokusho was the definition of "cancerous" to play against, Jitte was another card that just flat out made games functionally unplayable, a bunch of combo cards... Like, Pithing Needle was a good card. A surgical interaction piece that was relevant and decently powered... That's about it.
And who can forget one of the "best" limited environments of all time where all the different mechanics and keywords really come together to reinforce one idea: don't play cards. Having fewer cards in your hand is REALLY bad, so... don't play cards. Or, ideally, play one card and ride it out! And pick up your lands. It's ok, you don't need then! You're not playing any cards either! Draw go! "Fun"!
Put them together and the result is horrible. Most cards are underpowered AND not fun, and the few cards that are strong are disastrous... AND also not fun. Like, being forced to play Umezawa's Jitte because either you legend rule your opponent's Jitte, or if one of you has a Jitte and the other doesn't they just win the game. Awful.
Again, almost an exact mirror to masques. No lessons learned between those 2.
Like you say, the production timeline doesn't seem to matchup. But the powerlevel for Kamigawa was *conspicuously* low; it wasn't just lower powered compared to Mirrodin, it was a really, REALLY low power block in general, with insane outliers that seemed accidental. This naturally led people to draw comparisons between it and Masques block, which was the original "we need to power down magic or the game will die" block.
The production timeline doesn't add up for Kamigawa to be a reaction to Mirrodin's power level in the hands of players, but it's highly likely that it was still lower power as a direct response to Mirrodin's power level. The idea of Standard is to create an environment where power creep isn't the only way to make new cards playable. Standard sets have a default power level that remains relatively constant over time. The previous three blocks--Invasion, Odyssey, Onslaught--all had pretty similar power levels. Making a new block at an intentionally higher power level is a frequent, intentional choice, as is the decision to power down the following set *below* normal to balance things out. This is echoed in the other ways that Mirrodin and Kamigawa are opposites. Mirrodin was a bottom-up, mechanics-first set that changed some paradigms of Magic design. Mirrodin's setting, while alien, was directly tied to the previous three blocks' story, covering the end of the Mirrari (awakened into Memnarch) and what Karn did with Urza's spark after the Invasion. In contrast, Kamigawa was a clean break from Magic thus far, a place that knew nothing of Urza nor Phyrexia. While this wasn't obvious in the cards themselves, it was also temporally isolated, taking place long before Toshiro Umezawa's descendant made his way to a strange place called Dominaria. Every emphasis, mechanical and story wise, is reversed between the two blocks. The one trait they share is, annoyingly, being mechanically insular from the blocks on either side of them. My guess is that Mirrodin was intended to be a *little* more powerful than the three previous blocks, but was accidentally a *lot* more powerful (to this day, I'll always wonder if Standard would have self-corrected if cards like [[Granulate]] hadn't been specifically crafted to spare the Artifact Lands). Kamigawa had always been intended to be below the curve on power level, but wound up *starkly* lower because Mirrodin was so high. But the power level difference was only one facet of how these two blocks were always intended to be opposites.
To add to this: When Mirrodin rotated out, Kamigawa fit pretty well with Ravnica. It was still weaker, but not to the same absurd extent.
I'd argue against it even being weaker. Most of the top decks post-Mirrodin were focused on Kamigawa cards.
Glorious Standard environment too, especially once Guildpact hit
> The idea of Standard is to create an environment where power creep isn't the only way to make new cards playable. Standard sets have a default power level that remains relatively constant over time. The previous three blocks--Invasion, Odyssey, Onslaught--all had pretty similar power levels. Making a new block at an intentionally higher power level is a frequent, intentional choice, as is the decision to power down the following set below normal to balance things out. This was also seen more recently with Original Ixalan block, which had a sharp power down from the previous sets, but was fairly close to the ravnica sets that followed (until WAR hit at least).
[Granulate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e13798b8-689e-4f19-af10-b72d3fe19f3c.jpg?1657014395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Granulate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/67/granulate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e13798b8-689e-4f19-af10-b72d3fe19f3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Onslaught was much higher powered than Invasion or Odyssey. They only really look comparable when you compare them to Mirrodin.
I wouldn't say it was much higher powered. Goblin Bidding was probably the most powerful Standard deck across the three formats, but there were monsters like Psychatog and Overabundance in the previous blocks.
Invasion block was also for the time a very high power block.
For its time? Maybe if you compare it to Odyssey and Masques, but it was much weaker than Onslaught or Urza's. Battle of Wits made top 8 with Invasion in standard.
True urzas was one of the powerful sets ever printed even by today's standards. However invasion block printed enough to be as good or stronger then onslaught
Tell me you weren't actually playing at the time without telling me you weren't actually playing at the time.
Honestly with Masques its equally debatable about how much of a direct reaction it could have been to Urza's Block with them running on roughly the same timeline. It could have been a reaction to Tempest but that wouldn't make that much sense as Tempest is generally seen as kinda hitting the sweet spot.
If I remember correctly, production timelines back then were a lot shorter, so this one is more possible.
Masques was explicitly a reaction to the power level of Urza's block. Urza block came out just as the acquisition deal with Hasbro was being finalized. The heads of Magic R&D were infamously called into the C suit offices of Hasbro during Combo Winter to explain exactly why they were destroying the brand equity of the new acquisition's greatest product line and what they were going to do to fix it. For many years (maybe even still, not sure if it was shed when Play Design began), the internal testing league for in-development sets within the Standard environments they would exist in was called the Future Future League. Why two futures? Because the Future League was where they'd playtested Urza block, and it was clear that that hadn't worked out. So they extended development time, knocking out a low power, low complexity block that was light on unifying themes (Mercadian Masques block) while they worked on an actual masterpiece (Invasion block). So the Future League tested Masques while the Future Future League tested Invasion and all the sets that followed. You've got to remember that Magic was a lot smaller back then. It was much easier to get everything printed and distributed on time with a much shorter windup because there was just so much *less* of it. In addition to smaller print runs, most years contained 4 sets sold in a single type of booster/box and a few preconstructed decks to go with them.
Heard FFL so many times and just thought it was some nonsense. Never heard the story of how it got it's name.
Kamigawa block was so low on power that [[Gnarled Mass]] was a widely played constructed staple. A vanilla 3/3 for 3!
The card I always think of is [[Yomiji, Who Bars the Way]]. This card: * Has a drawback in the Legendary supertype. Remember, this is before Commander was a well-known format, let alone one designed for. Legendary was pure drawback. * Only rewards players who fill their deck with other cards that have the same drawback. * Is symmetrical, meaning it can theoretically help your opponents. * Is a 4/4 with no keywords for 7 mana. * Only generates advantage in a fairly specific scenario, even if you've spent 7 mana on it and jumped through the deck building hoops. Even in 2004, a normal set would likely have costed Yojimi at 3WW and made the ability only affect its controller. If it were printed now, it would probably be all of the above (maybe even cost 4W) and have Vigilance and Lifelink.
All-time great flavor text, though.
OG Kamigawa was a cut above everything that came before in regards to flavor and art quality.
[Yomiji, Who Bars the Way](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f611af49-3c59-4365-a398-93f7e05ff0d0.jpg?1562880727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yomiji%2C%20Who%20Bars%20the%20Way) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/30/yomiji-who-bars-the-way?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f611af49-3c59-4365-a398-93f7e05ff0d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Gnarled Mass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c28728d-4839-4cdf-91d4-b9fb4b5d0449.jpg?1562877254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gnarled%20Mass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/127/gnarled-mass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c28728d-4839-4cdf-91d4-b9fb4b5d0449?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Found Mike Flores' burner account
Funny enough, I've played him before. I lost. He definitely championed Gnarled Mass as the super secret tech back in the day. Great deck designer, even if Gnarled Mass does suck.
Bullshit, I found 3 *limited* decks using gnarled mass but nobody was playing it in constructed.
I think he must have left out the phrase “Pauper Tiny Leaders” from his comment. Gnarled Mass is in like every green deck in KBPTL
I first pick Gnarled Mass every time in Vanilla Premodern Cube. 3/3 for 3 is actually unbeatable and the top percentage of vanilla critters.
Mike Flores apparently played it but that's all I can find. It lined up well in combat against the white weenie and monoblack decks. Here's the article where he explains his tech: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/critical-mass/ And here's the article where he mentions that he cut it: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/2005-championship-deck-challenge-tuned-decks-part-i-critical-mass-update/
>”Gnarled Mass is actually great in every matchup and I wish I played more main.” Into calling the deck > now with 100% fewer “critical” Gnarled Masses Is peak mtg article comedy. Dude didn’t know how to fill in the last 4 cards and just chose an on rate vanilla filler.
thats just a reprint of [[trained armadon]] with spirit synergy
[trained armadon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b55e0487-3abb-4f2b-b34c-d6ad49164e73.jpg?1562431272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trained%20Armodon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/200/trained-armodon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b55e0487-3abb-4f2b-b34c-d6ad49164e73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What?
Heh we all know what insane outlier you’re talking about. [[umezawa’s jitte]]
Don't forget [[Gifts Ungiven]].
There was a Kamigawa block constructed PTQ season. If you weren't playing Gifts Control, you were doing it wrong. I got my first PTQ top 8 with that deck despite not really knowing what I was doing, then got crushed in the mirror by someone who did know what they were doing.
IIRC, mono-white aggro with Jitte & Charge Across the Araba could hang, albeit as a side effect of most people tuning their decks for control vs. control matchups rather than anti-aggro.
God, what a dogshit mechanic Sweep was. Does nothing unless it wins the game.
[Gifts Ungiven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32.jpg?1685966742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gifts%20Ungiven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/51/gifts-ungiven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Top and Needle, too.
Us burn players can't forget about [[Lava Spike]]! We'll take any bolt we can get, even sorcery speed and face only.
One day we'll get Oops All Bolt.
[Lava Spike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79c21c1f-eaa4-454d-a1c7-b41466d0a428.jpg?1547517298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lava%20Spike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/136/lava-spike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79c21c1f-eaa4-454d-a1c7-b41466d0a428?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tip wasn't broken until there were more shuffle effects
Top was in the same set as Gifts, [[Sakura-Tribe Elder]], and [[Kodama's Reach]] (for block constructed, [[Time of Need]] and [[Journeyer's Kite]], too. Yes, Kite was playable in Block). The top decks of the time would have a crazy amount of shuffle effects before they started considering Top.
Not to mention fetchland had already been printed. Though not legal in standard at the time, fetch+top was immediately available in Extended/T1/T1.5
##### ###### #### [Sakura-Tribe Elder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f.jpg?1706240924) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakura-Tribe%20Elder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/183/sakura-tribe-elder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kodama's Reach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/eddf5231-7c46-417b-82c3-f6a8ede5ac9c.jpg?1712354581) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%27s%20Reach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/196/kodamas-reach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eddf5231-7c46-417b-82c3-f6a8ede5ac9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Time of Need](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/514577a5-c7ae-4cfc-872a-e3786d78a6c3.jpg?1562760066) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20of%20Need) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/247/time-of-need?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/514577a5-c7ae-4cfc-872a-e3786d78a6c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Journeyer's Kite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5440121d-d3b5-4d26-a2d9-674af73d449a.jpg?1581708584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Journeyer%27s%20Kite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddi/65/journeyers-kite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5440121d-d3b5-4d26-a2d9-674af73d449a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l47hjv7) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, Kamigawa had a solid 20 or so really good constructed cards, beyond just Jitte. The legendary dragons, specifically white, blue, and Black (Kokusho, Yosei, Keiga), Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Gifts Ungiven, Sensei's Divining Top, Pithing Needle, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Kodama's Reach, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Ghostly Prison, A whole host of really good legendary lands. A bunch of good standard-playable aggressive cards like Genju of the Spires, Zo-Zu the Punisher. Honestly, Kamigawa-Mirrodin standard involved plenty of cards from Kamigawa. The reason Kamigawa was considered a "low power" set had less to do with the top end of cards (which were fine), and more to do with the bottom end of cards (which were...not fine). It's got a whole theme centered around spirit and arcane spells. Arcane spells never got any support ever. Spirits had basically zero support in surrounding blocks, and were never a tribe again until Innistrad. So basically the core mechanics of the block were very unattractive to anyone wanting to build for...basically anything past block constructed. Including tons of hate cards against spirit and arcane which have like...zero use outside of Kamigawa Block such as \[\[Psychic Spear\]\], \[\[Rend Spirit\]\], \[\[Sideswipe\]\], \[\[Hisoka's Defiance\]\], \[\[Field of Reality\]\], \[\[Minamo's Meddling\]\], \[\[Nine-ringed Bo\]\], and \[\[Kitsune Diviner\]\]. These at least had a storyline reason to exist--Kamigawa had a war between the spirit realm and the mortal realm. But the result was super narrow removal that nobody really wanted to put in their decks. But then there were the really bad draft cards which don't really have a good explanation. Don't get me wrong...people were used to seeing bad cards that only exist for draft, but for some reason bad Kamigawa's draft cards were like super duper extra bad for no clear reason with cards like \[\[Harsh Deceiver\]\], \[\[Kumano's Pupils\]\], \[\[Kami of Tattered Shoji\]\], \[\[Orbweaver Kumo\]\], \[\[Shinen of Fear's Chill\]\], \[\[Deathcurse Ogre\]\], \[\[Fiddlehead Kami\]\], \[\[Kumano's Blessing\]\], \[\[Ashen Monstrosity\]\], \[\[Thoughtbind\]\], \[\[Dosan's Oldest Chant\]\], \[\[Thousand-legged Kami\]\], \[\[Crawling Filth\]\], \[\[Kashi-Tribe Warriors\]\], \[\[Takeno's Cavalry\]\], \[\[Mastu-Tribe Birdstalker\]\].
##### ###### #### [Psychic Spear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2f024b-e77e-426b-930e-85b87e046f9b.jpg?1593860617) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychic%20Spear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/78/psychic-spear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2f024b-e77e-426b-930e-85b87e046f9b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rend Spirit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/100f0235-a7fe-4e23-b154-3d30668a29a7.jpg?1562757506) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rend%20Spirit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/141/rend-spirit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/100f0235-a7fe-4e23-b154-3d30668a29a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sideswipe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bd611b7-7bd3-4a76-bd69-34a7235965ae.jpg?1562761081) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sideswipe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/187/sideswipe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bd611b7-7bd3-4a76-bd69-34a7235965ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hisoka's Defiance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09fd4d01-1204-46a3-b237-45c37985acac.jpg?1562757466) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hisoka%27s%20Defiance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/67/hisokas-defiance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09fd4d01-1204-46a3-b237-45c37985acac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Field of Reality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2ff7c6fc-324b-4cff-9109-6d817767865f.jpg?1593860605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20Reality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/60/field-of-reality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ff7c6fc-324b-4cff-9109-6d817767865f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Minamo's Meddling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/502c4aca-98f8-4c7d-89fd-ee42c938fac7.jpg?1562876978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minamo%27s%20Meddling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/42/minamos-meddling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/502c4aca-98f8-4c7d-89fd-ee42c938fac7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Nine-ringed Bo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/445e60aa-1a0a-499e-9887-7d17a1f80a02.jpg?1562759405) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nine-ringed%20Bo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/263/nine-ringed-bo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/445e60aa-1a0a-499e-9887-7d17a1f80a02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kitsune Diviner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c50fb007-d1fd-4b61-91c3-4863e40472ed.jpg?1562764195) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kitsune%20Diviner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/26/kitsune-diviner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c50fb007-d1fd-4b61-91c3-4863e40472ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Harsh Deceiver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01e19753-b94b-458f-a51b-c8ec8fbec6c8.jpg?1562757414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harsh%20Deceiver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/11/harsh-deceiver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01e19753-b94b-458f-a51b-c8ec8fbec6c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kumano's Pupils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c62b233e-95fe-4cfd-ad89-86e07656bf8b.jpg?1593860615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kumano%27s%20Pupils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/177/kumanos-pupils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c62b233e-95fe-4cfd-ad89-86e07656bf8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kami of Tattered Shoji](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc6deb57-4ee3-4716-8644-28283704f994.jpg?1562880219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Tattered%20Shoji) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/11/kami-of-tattered-shoji?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc6deb57-4ee3-4716-8644-28283704f994?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Orbweaver Kumo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d8f0459-a839-4820-8f99-58da5851ff36.jpg?1562759363) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orbweaver%20Kumo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/231/orbweaver-kumo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d8f0459-a839-4820-8f99-58da5851ff36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shinen of Fear's Chill](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/762499b4-4b4f-456e-8a03-2de300b2db5e.jpg?1562494641) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shinen%20of%20Fear%27s%20Chill) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/88/shinen-of-fears-chill?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/762499b4-4b4f-456e-8a03-2de300b2db5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deathcurse Ogre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62bd3c73-fff4-40e8-b9db-80a010a4dd37.jpg?1562760616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathcurse%20Ogre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/109/deathcurse-ogre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62bd3c73-fff4-40e8-b9db-80a010a4dd37?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fiddlehead Kami](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db328ac4-1b7d-4310-9798-8c8dc8740062.jpg?1562496120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiddlehead%20Kami) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/130/fiddlehead-kami?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db328ac4-1b7d-4310-9798-8c8dc8740062?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kumano's Blessing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56f0d9aa-4270-41cd-8993-765354c03d03.jpg?1562877131) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kumano%27s%20Blessing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/111/kumanos-blessing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56f0d9aa-4270-41cd-8993-765354c03d03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashen Monstrosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de3218e3-4640-4f73-a52b-f11ea5ea23a9.jpg?1562880262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashen%20Monstrosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/93/ashen-monstrosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de3218e3-4640-4f73-a52b-f11ea5ea23a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thoughtbind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7919cf41-67bb-4dc4-90de-cf3fa2096c2e.jpg?1593860622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtbind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/96/thoughtbind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7919cf41-67bb-4dc4-90de-cf3fa2096c2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dosan's Oldest Chant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b525f824-fcce-48cc-887d-98d4058b1d31.jpg?1562495598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dosan%27s%20Oldest%20Chant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/127/dosans-oldest-chant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b525f824-fcce-48cc-887d-98d4058b1d31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thousand-legged Kami](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c88355e-dff0-4d51-a33c-08e14d6217d4.jpg?1562760550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-legged%20Kami) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/246/thousand-legged-kami?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c88355e-dff0-4d51-a33c-08e14d6217d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crawling Filth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c735bda-5454-4177-a23a-f9f00b7480d2.jpg?1562878661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawling%20Filth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/64/crawling-filth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c735bda-5454-4177-a23a-f9f00b7480d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kashi-Tribe Warriors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7cd4df4a-fbab-4598-ad8e-b24ed0bb4497.jpg?1562761991) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kashi-Tribe%20Warriors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/221/kashi-tribe-warriors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7cd4df4a-fbab-4598-ad8e-b24ed0bb4497?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Takeno's Cavalry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0cf9cd2e-5cf6-4959-abf2-56b686b636a3.jpg?1562875451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Takeno%27s%20Cavalry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/24/takenos-cavalry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0cf9cd2e-5cf6-4959-abf2-56b686b636a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mastu-Tribe Birdstalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1afb0c0-e138-4d2b-b3aa-fa40778f8d79.jpg?1562496617) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Matsu-Tribe%20Birdstalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/137/matsu-tribe-birdstalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1afb0c0-e138-4d2b-b3aa-fa40778f8d79?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4823fi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are good cards... and there are insanely good cards. Jitte is on a completely different level compared to most of the cards you listed. But I agree, there are plenty of good cards, but the set was filled with trash, and on the heels of a completely broken Mirrodin block. But when people talk of a insanely broken card from Kamigawa block.... the easy go to card is Jitte.
[umezawa’s jitte](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27.jpg?1562876528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Umezawa%27s%20Jitte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/163/umezawas-jitte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kamigawa honestly does not feel very weaker than onslaught sets. Mirrodin is the outlier being stronger than most sets of the era. This is mostly due to artifact lands and cost reduction keywords like affinity.
It depends on what you mean by that. If you mean did they quickly adjust the power level in response to the reception of the previous block? Unlikely, for precisely the reason you mentioned: production pipelines tend to be too long, and making last-minutes changes isn't really possible if you want to have everything printed, packaged, and ready to ship in time. However, they *do* proactively design blocks around each other, and it's entirely conceivable that they intentionally designed Kamigawa to be a lower power than Mirrodin *from the start*. Just to avoid constant power inflation, it can be a good idea in design to oscillate a little bit and not end up in a one-up spiral where you feel you have to beat the previous product in power all the time. So there could well be a design intent for lower power *without* that being a reactionary ripcord like people sometimes make it out to be.
Yeah thats what seems more likely to me, that Kamigawa was always intended to dial things back, it just unintentionally was also one of those blocks that didn't quite work out so it made it a lot easier to point out the differences.
I'd also dispute the impression that Kamigawa "didn't work out". It was a fine format. Limited was fine. Block Constructed was great (aside from the little wrinkle that was Jitte). It had a fun Standard. Its mechanics were interesting and fun - to the point that ninjutsu has become a bit of a staple even in supplementary sets because people like it so much. It suffered from having a terrible 3rd set, but you if you look at things during that time period, you'll find that... most blocks did. Part of the reason they abandoned block structures starting with the 3-set size was that the final set just always kind of missed the mark. Fifth Dawn was complete garbage, too, so it's not like the almighty Mirrodin block was immune to this, either. Kamigawa mostly suffered from bad timing. The destruction that Clamp and Ravager wrought on Magic as a whole cannot be understated. It's no exaggeration to say it nearly killed the game. ANYTHING would have looked like a used moist towelette in comparison, and it really wasn't Kamigawa's fault per se that they somehow couldn't pull that particular cart out of the mud instantly and miraculously.
I really liked Fifth Dawn :(
From a power level or limited perspective sure it might have been a step down or whatever but as a13 year old into kitchen table and cafeteria magic I remember it very fondly, mirrordin was allready super cool and now we have all this colored mana stuff showing up and the plain radically changing, it was super neat I get the reasons for doing away with blocks, the supply of 3rd set cards were way lower so that was always annoying but mechanically, thematically and story wise it was so good, I could wax poetically about scourge or fifth dawn now allmost 30 years later
I saw [[Bringer of the Red Dawn]] and I was in love. Just had to cast my [[Seething Song]] to search out 5 mountains from my deck and next turn... bam! This fatty is coming down. Btw yes that's not how Seething Song works and I haven't done that since I was like... 8. At the time though I didn't understand why anyone would play [[Kodama's Reach]] over the "red ramp" lol.
[Bringer of the Red Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16a58bb1-4c4d-41f2-9c69-d3c3a8a8ab09.jpg?1562875616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20Red%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/62/bringer-of-the-red-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16a58bb1-4c4d-41f2-9c69-d3c3a8a8ab09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seething Song](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f493ce26-005c-4ddc-80f0-47bea4fd013a.jpg?1625194059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seething%20Song) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/179/seething-song?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f493ce26-005c-4ddc-80f0-47bea4fd013a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kodama's Reach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/eddf5231-7c46-417b-82c3-f6a8ede5ac9c.jpg?1712354581) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%27s%20Reach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/196/kodamas-reach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eddf5231-7c46-417b-82c3-f6a8ede5ac9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Me too. I remember when [[Bringer of the Black Dawn]] was first spoiled and was in awe of it. I also liked the vibes of the Sunburst and WUBRG.
[Bringer of the Black Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54e5e882-02d4-4d69-aabf-ae9bf31f2923.jpg?1562877079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20Black%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/43/bringer-of-the-black-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54e5e882-02d4-4d69-aabf-ae9bf31f2923?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They had to adjust the power level of Fifth dawn because of how strong mirroring and darksteel were, so there was plenty of time to lower kamigawa's power level.
Was Mirrodin's powerlevel intentionally high, or was it an unintended consequence of being mostly colorless (all decks look the same) and all the mistakes around affinity? Was Mirrodin deemed stronger than Onslaught? Was Kamigawa weaker than Onslaught? Because of the card designs or because of the easy-to-achieve tribal synergies? Yup, some of Kamigawa's mechanics were egregious, like sweep returning all your lands to hand. However... was that so different (in spirit) from Arcbound Ravager eating all your lands? I think part of OG-K's problem is that we went from "wohoooo tribal!" to "wohoooo artifacts!" to "dude, WTF?" to "wohoooo multicolor!".
> Was Mirrodin's powerlevel intentionally high Yes. It was the first set with the new card design and they dont wanted to risk low sales numbers. > Was Mirrodin deemed stronger than Onslaught? Mirrodin was deemed to be the strongest set since Urza Block. > Was Kamigawa weaker than Onslaught? Kamigawa was the weakest set since Mercadian Masques. > Because of the card designs or because of the easy-to-achieve tribal synergies? Because of rate. Things like Soulshift were worthless because they printed them on 4 mana 2/2 creatures. Kamigawa was so egregious that i quit magic for years. (After playing since Ice Age.)
Soulshift was a limited mechanic, come on now. This is like complaining that Bushido wasn't viable in constructed. (Though I tried!) There were lots of solid constructed cards in the block that were fine in standard and extended and were the backbones of certain archetypes. It didn't have one omnipresent linear deck based on a block mechanic, but no block that has [[Isamaru, Hound of Konda]], [[Gifts Ungiven]], [[Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker]], [[Sakura Tribe Elder]], [[Blazing Shoal]], [[Pithing Needle]], [[Ebony Owl Netsuke]], and, of course, [[Umezawa's Jitte]] can really be called "egregiously underpowered."
##### ###### #### [Isamaru, Hound of Konda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6afead32-3542-44c4-82d6-b6a81beb9f90.jpg?1600713424) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Isamaru%2C%20Hound%20of%20Konda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/113/isamaru-hound-of-konda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6afead32-3542-44c4-82d6-b6a81beb9f90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gifts Ungiven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32.jpg?1685966742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gifts%20Ungiven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/51/gifts-ungiven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2ff0ee3-9600-4c7d-acec-6ec90595384e.jpg?1562852476) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kiki-Jiki%2C%20Mirror%20Breaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/136/kiki-jiki-mirror-breaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2ff0ee3-9600-4c7d-acec-6ec90595384e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sakura Tribe Elder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f.jpg?1706240924) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakura-Tribe%20Elder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/183/sakura-tribe-elder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blazing Shoal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b915daa-d239-4460-bd6b-e1327fdf7f51.jpg?1562878306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blazing%20Shoal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/96/blazing-shoal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b915daa-d239-4460-bd6b-e1327fdf7f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pithing Needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing%20Needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ebony Owl Netsuke](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39e0c24f-2312-4b40-9cd1-2b83d501e485.jpg?1593860733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ebony%20Owl%20Netsuke) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/154/ebony-owl-netsuke?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39e0c24f-2312-4b40-9cd1-2b83d501e485?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Umezawa's Jitte](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27.jpg?1562876528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Umezawa%27s%20Jitte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/163/umezawas-jitte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l45zvrr) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The card redesign happened with 8th Edition, not Mirrodin.
Yes but the first "real" Magic set after 8th Ed. was Mirrodin. Core sets were intentionally powered down and simplified compared to the main sets because they were meant to be more introductory products from what I remember.
I just think it's quite a stretch to say that the power level of Mirrodin was intentionally higher because of the card frame change when it wasn't actually the first set to use it.
I agree on that. I also don't really think anyone needed that much convincing about the new frame. I just wanted to clarify that it was the first mainline set to use the new frame so if that was their logic it could have been Mirrodin that got pushed rather than 8th edition which was as mentioned a core set and those were normally on the weaker/simpler side. I actually think Mirrodin was a mix of bad design choices that they didn't notice at the right time to fix it, a lack of understanding of how powerful the affinity mechanic actually was, and a few very strong cards that absolutely butchered competitive play and pushed everything else out of the format. And I think none of that was based on the frame change. I think they intended it to be maybe slightly powerful but not what it was. I think Kamigawa was intended to be a little weaker but not what it was because Bushido and Soulshift were aggressively overvalued mechanics when you looked at what you paid for in comparison to Affinity or Modular.
4 for a 2/2 with upside wasn't a terrible rate back then. The only 2/2 for 2 with upside in Odyssey was [[Wild Mongrel]]. Every else had downside (like [[Phantom Whelp]]) or was more expensive (like [[Aven Archer]]). Kamigawa was weaker than Mirrodin and Onslaught, but was on par or stronger than Odyssey, Invasion, and Masques.
[Wild Mongrel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d5be4ab-f85a-4272-ac08-99cb0105eb11.jpg?1547517969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Mongrel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/194/wild-mongrel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d5be4ab-f85a-4272-ac08-99cb0105eb11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phantom Whelp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9216e73b-56ef-48b9-a6a1-b370fb0d97c1.jpg?1562922098) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phantom%20Whelp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/93/phantom-whelp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9216e73b-56ef-48b9-a6a1-b370fb0d97c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aven Archer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d174892-c192-4667-94fb-9f8dbcc6c5eb.jpg?1562909125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aven%20Archer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/6/aven-archer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d174892-c192-4667-94fb-9f8dbcc6c5eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think the timelines were as rigid or spaced out as they are today. Notably, MaRo has said that Mercadian Masques was intentionally toned down in response to the backlash from Urza's Saga's high power level and them getting chewed out for how unbalanced that was. Champions was closer in time to Masques than the first instance I had heard Forsythe mentioning the 2 year design / development gap , which was in the early M Core set era. The more flexible timelines, combined with their discovery of the power level issues in testing after Mirrodin and Darksteel went to print could line up with some intent to tone down Champions before we even knew it was a problem. Even then, we still got Jitte out of that block.
> Champions was closer in time to Masques than the first instance I had heard Forsythe mentioning the 2 year design / development gap In the skullclamp article, they talked about how they were trying to print answers in Kamigawa for clamp before mirrodin came out.
Theyve said specifically they dropped the themes of Mirrodin block in Fifth Dawn because they had realized that the first two sets were too powerful.
I don't know why you were downvoted, this is correct. MaRo has said on his podcast multiple times that Mirrodin and Darksteel being so strong directly influenced Fifth Dawn being weaker.
Yep. People on here are forgetting (or maybe don't know) that the FFL exists. They would have been playtesting Mirrodin-Kamigawa standard during development of Kamigawa block, even though Mirrodin hadn't yet come out. They knew the first two sets were busted by that point, even though it was too late to change them.
Mirrodin block wasn’t “overturned”. It was insanely broken and full of mistakes, destroyed every format instantly, and nearly killed the game.
I think a big part that doesn't get enough credit is how successful the mechanics were in Mirrodin compared to Kamigawa. Modular and affinity are both powerful and very understandable for players and equipment was so good it instantly went core. On the flip side Kamigawa had rares devoted to epic, offering, and bushido. Complicated mechanics that never really worked so a bunch of the rares were simply unplayable. I think rather than a reaction both Kamigawa and Mirrodin were big risky experimental sets. It's just that Mirrodin worked and Kamigawa did not. It very easily could have been the other way around.
The size of Magic at the time and a lot of other issues aren’t being considered when people are answering this. First, Mirrordin was broken essentially at launch and only got worse when Darksteel in January/February came out. Second, sets usually don’t go to print until 60 to 90 days before release. A complete overhaul wasn’t possible but emergency surgery had plenty of time. An easy fix to lower power levels is to increase mana costs and if you look at many Kamigawa cards their mana cost seems higher than it should be. I think it’s important to also recognize that Kamigawa was probably already designed to be weaker than Mirrodin from the start but not as weak as we ended up.
I think a block as dedicated to legendary creatures as kamigawa was, during a time of significantly different legend rules, is bound to be low power.
As others have flagged, I’m not sure the timelines match up. I think most of Kamigawa would’ve already been done. Besides that, there are two points to flag: 1. It’s pretty clear mirrodin was an accident in terms of power level. Famously they didn’t even think about skullclamp in affinity or goblins decks, instead testing it in the underpowered white weenie build. That they also had to basically ban an entire set mechanic from standard speaks to that. 2. Kamigawa’s central theme was supposed to be legends. Back in ye old days creatures were generally weaker and less flashy. So it makes sense that an artifact set would be more powerful than a big flashy creature set.
MaRo has said multiple times that power levels between sets purposely fluctuate up and down in order to balance the Standard/Limited environment. So while Kamigawa was too soon to be a direct reaction to Mirrodin, it could have been a general lowering of the power level after Mirrodin was a purposeful heightening. Just a thought.
They didn’t know at the time but despite the vibes being good, the design goals of the block turned out to be mostly bad design goals. They don’t set those goals anymore. It took them too long to see this and blamed the wrong thing for a while I think but they figured it out. Onboard complexity and parasitic mechanics were way too dense.
I don't think sets at the time were designed as far ahead as they are now. I feel like I remember reading articles about how later designs in mirrodin block were affected by what they were seeing happen in standard by the start of mirrodin block.
People saying the production timeline doesn’t matchup are wrong. Mark has talked a bunch of times on his podcast about Fifth Dawn being really difficult to design because they knew at that point Mirrodin was broken and had to lean away from artifacts and try to give it a new identity with things like color matters. There was definitely enough time to power down Kamigawa
Kamigawa was weak because like Mirrodin, it was a highly experimental set. A lot of the set explored unrefined and unknown mechanical territory, so it was hard to gauge its power level.
They do internal testing long before a set comes out. They knew Mirrodin block was busted before it released and soon enough to make changes to Kamigawa block but not soon enough to make many changes to Mirrodin block itself. They did make changes to Fifth Dawn, though. It shares so few mechanics with the rest of the block because they needed to tone things down a bit. MaRo has talked about this concept in general and Mirrodin/Kamigawa specifically many times on his podcast and written articles. I suggest you take a look at those if you want to learn more about it from the source.
Back then they "linked" blocks with the last set and the first set, Odyssey-Torment-Judgement linked this last one to Onslaught with the Tribal thematics which was the common trope during all OLS (Onslaught - Legions - Scourge). And to be honest, the power level was in a continuous proportional incremental slope since Apocalypse, when we had multi color fest #1, this power level continued to OTJ then OLS and then the link with Mirrodin was very subtle in terms of Tribal (few and sparce tribal elements) but the artifacts were busted and the culprit was Darksteel not Mirrodin itself. They learned to some extent during Darksteel and watered down Fifth Dawn a little bit, it wasnt as busted as the previous two sets. By the time Kamigawa was in the workshop, Mirrodin as a Block was concluding with Fifth Dawn. Lots of people were disappointed with Kamigawa back then, from the set concept (japanese folkclore) to the art direction and the game mechanics; this disappointment was the second hit to the player base after the bannings during Darksteel-Mirrodin. And to be honest, thanks urza for Richard Garfield helping with OG Ravnica: City of Guilds. After Kamigawa, lots of people were afraid, I for one bought nothing from Kamigawa but when Ravnica hit the shelves, it was a revitalizing shot.
I think the aftermath aftermath (kek) gives us a good idea of what time frames they work with for printing and packaging. Between mom:a and otj they managed to cut the big score epilogue boosters and add them as a bonus sheet. (Assassins creed doesn't count, because of UB-ip contracts) I imagine they could have designed more cards to round out the set but didn't because it was more cost/time efficient to give us more bonus sheets. And the latter apparently was still preferable to scrapping the print entirely.
Thats interesting because its also about a year between those sets and we can see that they didn't really have time to change the fundamentals of the cards and just had to rush to cram a subset of them awkwardly into bonus sheets. It suggests that on a 12 month timeframe there is still time to reorganize the content of a booster pack, but not really do redevelopment of a whole set.
Personally I think they needed a lot less lead time when developing sets at the time. They only made 4 sets per year at during this time with one being a core set consisting of only reprints. Print runs where also a lot smaller so printing the set after development was done woulnd't take as long as it currently does. So I really wouldn't be surprised if they actually did make changes to the kamigawa block in response to the power level of mirrodin (darksteel and fifth dawn would probably be to short). If this is actually the case is another question of course.
Typically even in those days sets would go to print around six months before release.
I think kamigawa was lower power because they tried to do a lot of unique mechanics to fit the musical feeling kamigawa has. Picking up lands as a major tribal mechanic really didn’t work out so well. I just think it was a lack of understanding imo, but that’s just speculation.
Wasn't Mirrodin the second time ever that R&D was called into the Vice President's office to be yelled at? As in, "You're all going to be fired if this keeps up." I think getting a dressing-down from your boss would prompt some swift and decisive action, production pipeline be damned.
[удалено]
[Gnarled Mass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c28728d-4839-4cdf-91d4-b9fb4b5d0449.jpg?1562877254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gnarled%20Mass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/127/gnarled-mass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c28728d-4839-4cdf-91d4-b9fb4b5d0449?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s possible they first realized they just how overpowered they had made Mirrodin & Darksteel in the Future Future League for Fifth Dawn or Kamigawa and were already pulling back. FFL was them testing standard 12 months into the future. (And they mentioned the original Future League, 6 months into the future, was not long enough to actually fix problems. It was long enough only find them.) Thinking about the real world timeline: Champions of Kamigawa came out September 18, 2004 so its future future league testing would have started happening in September 2003. Mirrodin would release on October 2, 2003. So given that 12 - 6 month lead window to change things I think they could have reacted to the public interacting with Mirrodin and tweaked Champions. Though Skullclamp wouldn’t be banned until June 2004 and Arcbound Ravager and artifact lands wouldn’t be banned until March 2005.
Kamigawa's a block I've learned to appreciate much more over the years, because it's become a bit opposite of what the narrative is about it. That said, there were a few design philosophies that really hurt it at the time, and it's biggest problem is one that's a bit understated: Kamigawa cards play best when good mana fixing is available, but they tried to force things to be mono-color. It especially hurt with the strong color commitments when Mirrodin was all colorless with no need for color commitment at all. Nowadays, as every year has good fixing, I had found Kami block is generally the best block to play with new cards with if an environment gets stale. It just supports a large sundry of strategies without being too overpowering. It's mechanics are also surpringly anti-linear (it's generally best to only play one card with epic, splice, etc than to fill a deck up), so the poorly received mechanics don't actually matter that much. Likewise, fatties like Meloku and Yosei offer combo potential, so powercreep stats don't matter that much either. In terms of development, there's some notable known nerfs. The Zubera got bumped up to 1/2 two mana critters from one mana 1 toughness critters just due to the existence of Skullclamp. Splice onto Arcane is a thing probably due to Storm originally coming out at the beginning of development for the block.
I had heard the the Kamigawa block was heavily influenced by the L5R card game, which wotc had until they sold it in 2000. Then 4 years later we get Kamigawa, which fell in line with the development cycle of ~3 years at the time. So it might have just been an experimental power level based on the setting. If any of it is even true. https://imgur.com/a/DT47lCU
it might have been a factor, but given how little synergy there was inbetween the 2 blocks ( no tribal support, poor color fixing), i would hope they haven't intentionally made it shit. I played at that time as a casual and it was painful to see how even kids playing with piles of commons couldn't really get much out of kamigawa, my RW samurai deck felt so much weaker than just jamming in some savannah lions and mirrodin equipments. I cry for all the poor souls who got baited into playing 5 color spirits with next to no mana fixing available. Mirrodin was busted, i guess because they were trying to make very weird artifacts and they were worried they could underperform or feel boring.Also players were ready to see MtG dying for the 12th time because gray artifacts were too ugly compared to brown ones.
WotC said that they ran out of time during the creation of Kamigawa because it was their first time doing a set based on real world flavour. My theory is that they intentionally powered down a lot of the set to save time on playtesting as they got closer to the deadline.
Interesting. It's hard to say if it was a reaction Aka Mirrodin came out destroyed everything in constructed and then they panicked and powered down Kamigawa or if it was always intended aka Mirrodin was designed and clearly going to be powerful and they scaled back on the next release during the design process to manage powercreep over time which was something they kept in mind. That said even when MaRo and others talk about designing years ahead there is the possibility to do certain things for example Aftermath was printed in May of 2023 and 11 months later they managed to change the composition of Thunder Junction packs to avoid having Epilogue boosters for that set so a 1 year gap isn't necessarily an impossible job for them to change stuff around within if it were deemed necessary.
It wasn't a reaction because sets are designed two years in advance of their release. It was an intentional power-down because Mirrodin was very pushed. For example, they wanted to make artifacts more powerful for just a block as a block theme, so they printed cards like [[Sword of Fire and Ice]] and [[Chrome Mox]], and they were rares because there was no such thing as Mythic, and cares like [[aether vial]] and [[isochron scepter]] which in terms of power and complexity would make sense as rares, at uncommon. I think MaRo has said that they have since changed their approach to modulating power level since then.
##### ###### #### [Sword of Fire and Ice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/2626d4c9-fcef-4057-a154-7d987a4a4b84.jpg?1599710057) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20Fire%20and%20Ice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/297/sword-of-fire-and-ice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2626d4c9-fcef-4057-a154-7d987a4a4b84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [aether vial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed.jpg?1673149308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aether%20vial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/298/aether-vial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [isochron scepter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451.jpg?1623543821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=isochron%20scepter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/264/isochron-scepter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l49p39b) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Affinity was ridiculously strong right out the gate, then Skullclamp came out in Darksteel (2nd set of Mirrodin block) and made matters worse. Skullclamp is known to have had a last-minute change to be +1/-1 without realizing the implications, so last minute changes were known to happen at this time to a greater extent than in the current era. WotC probably got the message pretty quickly that they had messed up. However, I think they also just genuinely had a difficult time balancing artifacts and preventing them from showing up everywhere. Two of the most memorable cards from Kamigawa block were Sensei’s Divining Top and Umezawa’s Jitte, another pair of imbalanced artifacts. This was well before the Play Design team, so they would often just miss on power level. Another example in Kamigawa was Gifts Ungiven, which was Mark Rosewater’s redesign of Intuition that was still overly powerful. Maro is very good at making interesting, unique, and fun designs but balancing is not his strong suit, so you would often get overtuned cards, especially when not everything had been done before and costs were difficult to evaluate. It is pretty clear that Gifts is a fair bit more powerful than even Fact or Fiction at the same cost.
Two things here. Pretty much the same thing as with Masques block. First, yes, Kamigawa was a necessary "reset" to the power creep that was occuring. Standard power creep had gone insane resulting in a necessary ban wave and it simply wasn't sustainable. They needed to bite the bullet and just...reset somewhere. They couldn't really go up anymore. However, on top of that, kamigawa is just a poorly designed and developed block... It has legit some of the worst keywords and mechanics in MTG's whole history. Like, who's accountant thought SWEEP was a fun mechanic...? And Epic is likely the single worst mechanic in all of MTG ever - It either functionally wins or loses the game outright, without actually ending the game so you still have to go through the motions for several more turns, except the game is in a very literal sense unplayable - one of the players can't cast spells anymore. So either the Epic effect outright wins the game by itself (like enduring ideal locks) or you just lose and just cannot do anything. Just legit terrible. The power you do find in these sets is also mostly in all the wrong places. Sensei's Divining Top is so "fun" even many of the people playing it were happy when it was banned... Kokusho was the definition of "cancerous" to play against, Jitte was another card that just flat out made games functionally unplayable, a bunch of combo cards... Like, Pithing Needle was a good card. A surgical interaction piece that was relevant and decently powered... That's about it. And who can forget one of the "best" limited environments of all time where all the different mechanics and keywords really come together to reinforce one idea: don't play cards. Having fewer cards in your hand is REALLY bad, so... don't play cards. Or, ideally, play one card and ride it out! And pick up your lands. It's ok, you don't need then! You're not playing any cards either! Draw go! "Fun"! Put them together and the result is horrible. Most cards are underpowered AND not fun, and the few cards that are strong are disastrous... AND also not fun. Like, being forced to play Umezawa's Jitte because either you legend rule your opponent's Jitte, or if one of you has a Jitte and the other doesn't they just win the game. Awful. Again, almost an exact mirror to masques. No lessons learned between those 2.
There's a very recent version of this with streets of new capenna because ironically neon dynasty was super overpowered.
Nope