Despite whether people agree with the motives or messages of a protest, it's really, really important to protect Aussies' right to protest. Obviously in a way that doesn't put anyone in danger - blocking ambulances etc. Even if it's inconvenient for a period of time, it's necessary to have that right. Slippery slope without it.
Obstructive protests is what lead to the new laws in SA that now include 50k fines for blocking traffic. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-19/unions-and-human-rights-groups-slam-sa-protest-law-change/102367076
Use to be protests would happen where the production was happening in order to create pressure for change but as we don't produce much anymore and what we do produce is heavily protected the next best thing is block traffic. It sucks but protests are not about being convenient.
I strongly support the right to protest, I have concerns over our next union rally now with these laws. These laws are not good and were rushed through as a knee jerk to people getting pissed off. But now there's a precedent other states may follow. I hope your government is better than ours.
That's usually why they work with cops for logistics. It's about ensuring people will always have that right to engage the police when they want to protest.
They are welcome to stand on the sidewalk and hold up signs like respectable protests do. What they are doing here is restricting access to tax funded infrastructure to the general public and it isn't your or their place to decide whether it's dangerous or inconvenient.
I'm sure whatever they are protesting is important **to them**, but that doesn't give them the right to impede everyone else's life.
All I'm saying is if you restrict rights to protest, it's a slippery slope to other scary or restrictive laws.
The average citizen doesn't have the ability to send a loud political message without a protest. It's one of the very few things people can do to get their voice out.
That's why having the ability and right to work with police while protesting is important.
It’s more than inconvenient, it could easily be life threatening if emergency services are blocked.
who draws the line between inconvenience and illegal obstruction?
People can protest on the side of the road and be noticed just as much.
Also, blocking traffic actually harms their cause. Who wants to support a group that made you late to work, a job interview, an important presentation, a school or uni exam… etc.
Yes, it's important to work with police for protests so logistics can be safely accounted for. Ambos can be informed that roads ABC are being used for protests, so use alternative routes XYZ.
The only times I've ever encountered protests in Syd and Melb, I was truly only put out for about 15-20 minutes.
You realise it’s not just the immediate road that is affected by the protests right? It will affect all surrounding roads as well and can cause huge traffic jams.
15-20 minutes can mean the difference between life and death. Would you want that if your son/daughter or parent was on the way to the hospital after an emergency incident?
Put yourself in the shoes of others.
Just wish people knew the facts about what they are protesting, like ever. I asked a person if they knew it was illegal to be gay in Palestine, and they said I was a liar and a Zionist supporter, lmao. Ok, bud.
We sell them parts for the f35 bombers they're using...to bomb people.Have whatever opinion you like on the conflict...but your characterisation of our military trade with them is simply inaccurate. Not a lot of alternative uses for f35 bomber parts tbh
We don’t directly export F-35 parts to Israel.
There are private Australian companies, like Heat Treatment Australia, that make parts or processes that are then sold to Lockheed Martin, among many other companies. Lockheed Martin then sells planes to the IDF. At no point in the process does Australia directly supply Israel, again, it’s a function of international trade and is being a member of the global supply chain.
You got dismissed in your reply but I do want to give you an upvote and Credible answer which is rare in this thread.
I can appreciate however that even in your wording of not directly supplying Israel may as well be seen as directly supplying Israel from the point of view of the person your replying to.
They have F15's and F16's which are far better at the job as they carry more and cost less to operate. But we sold the last batch of F35 parts to the USA over 7 years ago.
The lies being pushed by this group only undermine them as the details are easily available.
it's a little disingenuous and a little scare tactic-y to call the F35 a bomber as it's multirole (used in combat air patrol, recon missions) and also protects various shipping lanes around the world, including the china sea. the parts australia sells go into a pool which are made into aircraft and then sold off by the manufacturers to whoever bought them. do you suggest we stop making the F35 and have the entirety of NATO be open to attack because we don't want to manufacture more components for it just because of Israel?
being part of the joint fighter program we can't just *not contribute* parts to countries we don't like.
I can’t help but think there is a bullshit reasoning produced each week for why they are protesting.
If simply arming and aiding countries and groups was enough to have people protesting, where are the college campus protests in America? Saudi Arabia is the biggest buyer of US Weapons and they have recently killed 400,000 or so in Yemen. And I’ve not once heard of a protest even though “USA is complicit as they are arming them”.
I just don’t buy it. Hating on Israel is just the latest trend.
I’d wager most people aren’t seeing the constant images of death and destruction from Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Doesn’t mean they aren’t against and wouldn’t protest those atrocities either.
Also are you really arguing. “There are other genocides being commuted by other awful groups, so the one committed by Israel is okay?” I hope not. People have been protesting these other war crimes. Not nearly at the same scale. But now that we’re talking about it. Maybe more will.
If you call hating on a tyrant trying to exterminate a people a trend. Sure. I’m on that trend.
>I’d wager most people aren’t seeing the constant images of death and destruction from Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Doesn’t mean they aren’t against and wouldn’t protest those atrocities either.
Well then, why aren't they?
>Also are you really arguing. “There are other genocides being commuted by other awful groups, so the one committed by Israel is okay?”
I never said that.
I'm yet to see anything explain what we're exporting to Israel that has everyone so upset.
We actually import weapon systems from Israel, so really we're helping to disarm them?
I think it's more that selling arms is a key part of showing support to the regime and accepting complicity in their actions.
What the protestors really want is for Australia to apply whatever diplomatic levers at their disposal to try to bring the conflict to an end, ending arms sales is one of those levers. It doesn't just prevent Israel from receiving the physical arms, it also shows that they do not have Australia's support for their actions in Gaza and would highlight how they are isolating themselves from the international community.
Currently, the Government's stance looks more like "we're happy with whatever Israel does, they are a key ally". Which plays an (admittedly small) part in Israel's ongoing calculations, and in the USA's calculations.
If the USA was the only country continuing to support Israel militarily that would put a lot of pressure on Biden to be more firm with Israel, and he does actually have significant power to reign them in if he really wanted to.
Beyond that, the Australian Government don't sell any arms whatsoever to ISIS or North Korea for reasons that are obvious to everyone, to many people those same reasons straightforwardly apply to Israel as well.
Till the Israel “regime” of elected officials that uses a parliamentary system just like ours. Which somehow you think is comparable to North Korea and isis.
They do operate in an area with more strictly contested notions of nationality and citizenship. Someone born nominally in Israel who doesn’t fit the correct ethnic criteria isn’t allowed to vote, it’s pretty easy to frame that as systematic disenfranchisement of an indigenous population, and as such not a true democracy.
Someone born in Australia to parents without permanent residency or citizenship aren’t allowed to vote either. What’s your point?
Gaza and the West Bank aren’t part of Israel so why would they be allowed to vote.
>Gaza and the West Bank aren’t part of Israel so why would they be allowed to vote.
Correct, only Israeli citizens are allowed to vote like here in Australia. Israeli citizenship includes the 20% Arab population (former Palestinian) and all other citizens of any ethnicity are allowed to vote.
Do these people want everyone in a country to have the right to vote. Or do they just want the West Bank and Gaza to be able to vote in Israeli elections?
>and as such not a true democracy.
Israel as a state has been surrounded by hostile dictators and autocracies for its entire existence. Since the first day of statehood its neighbors tried to conquer it.
Israel is amazing that in that region of the world surrounded by such harsh external pressures and political systems that it has managed to stay so free and democratic is a feat unto itself. It is by no means perfect but considering its environmental factors the fact it hasn't slid into autocracy is worth applauding.
I'm saying that there can be reasons for not selling arms beyond the material impact. The actions of some states are morally repugnant enough that you should not sell them arms. I said nothing about whether Israel is as bad as North Korea or ISIS, I think it's a stupid question to begin with.
The point of using those states as an example is that nearly everyone agrees we shouldn’t supply them with arms.
The entire point of analogies is that the things are not the same.
If I said jumping a bmx over a ramp for the first time gives you a feeling of triumph like the first time they put a man on the moon, I'm not saying "you can get to the moon with a bmx and a ramp".
I mean there is one group which does want more dead civilians in Gaza and they are in Isreal.
We have had members of Bibi's coalition suggest nuking Palestinians whilst others suggest annexing the Gaza Strip.
I think it's a more far fetched statement than comparing Isreal to Isis. Jewish ISIS is what happens if Ben-Gvir and Smotrich get in charge.
Did you really just say that importing weapons from an arms manufacturer disarms them? Do you think they have 10 arms then 2 go to another country so they have 8? Thats not how arms manufacturing works. What is does is allow Israel to spend more money on weapons research, reinvest back into importing offensive weapons, and keep its local weapons manufacturing business churning out more
The deal with Elbit systems? Hardly need a FOI for that one. Elbit will supply sensors and active protection systems for our future IFV which will be manufactured in Australia.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but there's a lot of noise about us "exporting weapons" with seemingly little information to back up the claims.
> We actually import weapon systems from Israel, so really we're helping to disarm them?
...... Maybe we shouldn't support their arms industry either, now that you mention it....
People are confusing private companies in Australia doing business with the IDF with the government supplying the IDF arms.
Most of the people carrying on, blocking roads and being a public nuisance aren't the brightest bunch anyway.
The Victorian gov made a direct deal with an Israeli arms manufacturer. Just because you’re uninformed about the protest - doesn’t mean the protesters are!
Have you read the media release by trade unionists for palestine? You're calling them uninformed but you seem to be confused about the basic facts being discussed here.
Do you understand that governments do this magical thing called sanctions ? If an Aussie company started selling uranium to North Korea, the government would intervene.
You could at least have the faintest idea about reality before you comment on others intelligence
What a bright sub
On the other hand, we literally just [signed a billion dollar deal](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-28/israeli-weapons-company-awarded-australian-army-contract/103519558) with an Israeli weapons manufacturer.
If a hospital is being used as a military base (beyond treating civilians and injured combatants) then by the rules of war it becomes a legitimate military target.
Hamas is using hospitals as bars for two main reasons:
1. Generally militaries (including Israel) take steps to avoid hitting them, thereby giving cover to it's fighters and assets; and
2. Hamas's strategy in part hinges on goading Israel into striking ostensibly civilian targets and human shields so it can use them for propaganda purposes.
If they stopped bombing. The civilians would stop dying. What your missing is the ongoing efforts of Israel to occupy Palestinian land. They WANT to destroy hospitals and buildings so they can take over. After they go into the destroyed hospitals the IDF have been proven to have to fake the evidence of military activity to justify their attacks.
By claiming that it is ok to bomb hospitals for whatever reason is just spreading IDF propaganda and breaking international laws.
The evidence that hamas extensively uses hospitals Is limited, but Israel has extensively bombed hospitals in gaza.
If hamas is fighting this war as an insurgency, even using hospitals as covers, Israel should fight the war as an anti-insurgency, not a bombing campaign. If that was the case, Israel would not entirely crumble all of gazas infrastructure, which they have.
Israel is does not intend to eradicate hamas while retaining gaza, they intend to eradicate gaza.
Entirely correct.
Israel claimed they did not strike hospitals, then they bombed every single hospital in Gaza.
The rhetoric isn't worth debating anymore. It's a genocide.
That’s literally why Hamas use humans shields. Because they know their enemy has a moral obligation to question taking such a shot, and would take a moral and propaganda loss in the west (like they are now) if they did. It’s exactly why they do it.
Imagine if the Israelites fought standing infront of their own women and children: Hamas would see a 2 for 1 special. And no one would protest them to stop.
But… they don’t question taking those shots? Thats why they say 33,000 people are dead with only about 10k of those being Hamas. So your argument doesn’t make any sense.
Intelligence sharing goes both ways. You don’t share information with them, so why would they ever share information, for example a terrorist plot with us?
I think sharing tech and intelligence with one of the highest tech countries when it comes to military equipment is something we should continue doing.
If you actually believe the IDF are targeting hospitals you need to get out of your conspiracy chat groups.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_the_State_of_Palestine
Go to the hospitals in gaza section, and work your way through the hospitals, I'll give you a point for each hospital that hasn't been bombed or attacked by the IDF.
It's so disgusting and disheartening the amount of brain dead "aw y we even proteshtin for hummus r the bad guys, free israel"
Commentary on every one of these posts.
Just say you support genocide and hate Brown people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_the_State_of_Palestine
Go to the hospitals in gaza section, click on the links for each one. If drove my car into a shop front 30 times, repeatedly I am sure the conspiracy theorists on whatsapp would start wondering too.
Yeah the hospital thing is such a weird hill to die on. The IDF have shown that Hamas really are building their defensive infrastructure around hospitals with the explicit goal of baiting *exactly* the kinds of comments you're replying to. Even if you hate Israel, I don't see how you can look at the hospital stuff and conclude anything other than maybe Hamas should stop hiding their top commanders in hospitals.
At the very least it's a case where both sides are directly culpable. And at worst the person your replying to has just bought the Hamas propaganda hook, line and sinker.
I don't know if that's true, but sure.
I don't know if al-Shifa hospital was empty of patients, That's certainly not everyone's story. That's not MCF's opinion, and personally I trust their statements.
> A locally relevant, clearly-stated goal that I reckon a lot of Aussies would agree with if they knew it was happening.
I doubt it, but i wouldn't want to speak for a lot of Aussies im just one guy.
Should military procurement be decided by protestors? I would assume that the top Australian military experts buy and sell to further the goals of Australia, not the middle east.
Israel is one of the most advanced militaries in the world, there is NOTHING Australia can produce or create that Israel wouldn't have access to something better from U.S or produced at home. On the other hand we buy a lot of their systems because they are better than our own...
In any case ill eat a bag of hats if a small group of protesters can effect military procurement policy... We shall see i suppose.
Military procurement has more to do with signaling political allegiance than anything else. It’s why so many countries buy from France these days, it signals alignment with the west without buying directly from the US.
Banner supporting intifada so the rape, torture and murder as on 7th October. Should be arrested and charged with supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
The Australian Government does nothing of the sort. Military manufacturing etc is done by private companies and has nothing to do with the Government.
Why would the government want to block exports to an allied nation, and one that is currently battling the terrorist group these protesters represent?
> Military manufacturing etc is done by private companies and has nothing to do with the Government.
If you're trying to say that we have no control over what we export that's obviously not remotely true. Why are you lying?
> Why would the government want to block exports to an allied nation
Due to the famine, civilian deaths and the Australian or international aid workers being shot at.
Yeah the government is being very disingenuous about saying we don't supply arms when we're selling them parts for their f35 bombers. Given thats the narrative being run by Wong you can understand why people are confused though.
Isn't the F-35 thing because we selling parts to the program, which is international and Israel is just a part of. We can't stop doing that without pulling out of the entire program.
Nah, Holland has already stopped and they're part of the JSF, Israel isn't.
But yeah...they probably would just make their own...but then at least we're not involved.
The Netherlands example seems to be because a warehouse in their country was shipping directly to Israel. I might be wrong but I don't think we are doing the same thing, we make parts that go to such warehouses that then might be supplied to Israel.
No no... we're doing exactly the same thing. I mean...whether we should be doing so or not is up for each individual to decide...but the facts are what they are. We make them...we sell them...we ship them. The government certainly could stop it, whether they should or not is subjective. The fact we're doing it is objective reality. You could argue the government is technically being truthful since we don't send completed equipment...and that's what the UN ROCA defines as "arms". Australia's own Defence and Strategic Goods List however does explicitly count parts for the purposes of the Arms Trade Treaty..So by the UN definition we aren't...but by Australia's definition...we are. The government has to approve the exports, for obvious reasons. They could not approve them or withdraw the licences...which I gather is what the protesters are after.
I'm not saying that we couldn't, or even that we shouldn't, just the doing so is not as simple as the protestors are making it out to be. Like it's not stuff going from here directly to Israel that we could easily stop, and with little to no consequences.
I don't think that they sell them the parts directly, I believe Aussie companies sell the OEM parts, and then the OEM onsells the whole plane to Israel. How far back through the supply chain do you go, I'm sure that some of the iron ore we mine ends up doing bad things in many countries.
First, any parts we manufactured for the USA's F35 production line would have been over 7 years ago and nothing since.
Second, we don't sell those parts to Israel or any other country we sell them to the USA.
Finally the operational cost of the F35 is high compared to the F16 and F15 which Israel has been operating for years, so they won't even be using the F35 in this conflict.
edit: The coward responded and blocked me to stop my response so I'll update this post:
> They have 36 of them in service...but I suspect you knew that. Like honestly...if you're just outright lie s obviously.. what even is the point? They're literally using them right now for close aid support lol I mean ..dude. fuck off. And we do sell them to Israel.
They have a very high operational cost double that of F15's and F16's whilst carrying less bombs because they're stealth fighters. You don't need stealth fighters when you have total air control over the battlefield. They'd be an expensive and wasteful option when they could just operate their other fighters.
No we don't sell parts to Israel that isn't how the parts supply chain works and never has, we sell them to the USA and that's the last we see or hear of those parts.
Saying Australia is barely involved is demonstrably and blatantly false. You can't really flatten Australia and Israel's binding allyship, rhetorical support and deals/MOUs that easily. Hell, it's taken this long to kick out Israeli influence from our universities.
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The funniest parts at the end of these recent protests is observing the muslims with a Quran in hand trying to convert obviously gay young uni students to Islam who are too scared to just say no
Gonna be ironic when they get what they want, Palestine becomes a powerful recognised state and starts offing people for being homosexual or lgbtq. "You kissed another man? Yeah, 10 years in prison for you buddy!"
Which intersection is it?
Edit: Nevermind, I can see it's Collins and Exhibition. Glad I didn't go to work in the city today!
Sorry you're stuck with it, OP.
Here's a idea, why don't we look after our own back yard. Domestic violence , people living below the poverty line. Housing crisis cost of living. And that horrible incident in Sydney. How about we fix our own issues first.
A lot of people involved in these protests also work on these issues. It’s not an either/or choice. It’s also true that Australia is complicit in this genocide because of weapons manufacturing (the point of this particular protest today).
I see an Aboriginal flag. Ironically, the Jews are indigenous people.
There has been a continuous presence of Jews in what is now Israel for thousands of years. Most of the recent immigrants — Jews from Iraq, and Syria, and Yemen, and Libya, and other Muslim-majority countries were driven from their homes by their Muslim neighbors after 1948, in collective punishment for the founding of Israel. Is anyone talking about their right of return? There are displaced people everywhere on Earth, but only the Palestinians have been turned into a global fetish, for their right of return.
In any case, Israel is not unique among states in having been created by outside powers. Pakistan was born in the same year and in the same way, and yet no one questions its right to exist. Nearly every nation on Earth has emerged from a chaotic history of conquest and the displacement of people. There are now 22 official Muslim States and over 50 Muslim-majority countries. This is the result of centuries of Muslim conquest. There is exactly one Jewish state. And yet only Israel must continuously confront charges of its illegitimacy. Only Israel must continually advocate for its right to exist.
There’s videos of a pro-Palestine protestors celebrating when someone on a megaphone announce Iran is sending drones to Israel.
Source: https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1779266763516973264
(You can downvote me if you want, does not make anything I say incorrect. I brought the receipts. Challenge what I said is wrong if you feel differently)
Israel deliberately provoked that by bombing an embassy. Netanyahu wants a calculated escalation of the conflict in the region for political goals and needs to be protested against
you can absolutely guarantee the Unites States embassies in all sorts of countries supply the same thing, and no doubt Australian embassies are used in some capacity around the world for espionage. are they valid military targets that should draw no response if attacked by someone hostile to us? or is international law only for others?
Im sure youre right that Iran uses Hamas as proxy to an extent, they do of course do that openly in Lebanon
> are they valid military targets that should draw no response if attacked by someone hostile to us?
If Australian embassy's around the world are plotting October 7 like attacks, and carry through with it, I absolutely would expect them to be targeted.
"Unionists For Palestine"
Aren't Unionists supposed to be supporters of a very different kind of union? Never seen the term used for Labour unions before. Perhaps I'm just solely familiar to the other context.
Their protest is mild (disruptive, yes), compared to what I experienced in the Hong Kong 2019 riots.
I protested on the streets against John Howard’s decision to send our boys to the war in Iraq more than a decade ago. Nothing changed. Our soldiers were still sent there. This protest will not change anything.
I think aggressive religious nutters have done enough harm in Australia for a few days. Just F off home you flogs. Also cops should charge them all with J walking and banners calling for Intifada should be deemed as hate speech and confiscated and destroyed…
Not just the religious nutters. I personally know people who went to some early protests with good intentions, i.e. calling for peace. But they stopped going with neo-Nazis turned up literally calling for... well you can guess.
What aggressive religious nutters?
Not wanting to supply weapons to an ongoing genocide doesn't make someone a religious nutter
Peaceful protests are a cornerstone of democracy
These protests kicked off on October 7th following one of the worst religiously motivated incidents of terrorism in history. The events in Bondi on the weekend highlight the link between religious nutters and using gendered violence to seek attention. Some may argue the religions are different but they are effectively the same. Fundamentalists are dangerous, divisive and cruel.
One of the worst, it’s not a competition. Denial of how awful Hamas’ actions on October 7th were feeds my hatred for them but it has nothing to do with racism. I have a lot of Russian heritage and stand 100% with Ukraine, race doesn’t factor into my political stances. Blind tribalism is the enemy of a peaceful planet and that’s what many of these pro Hamas protesters are exhibiting.
You mean the aggressive religious nutters that have killed over 34000 people, majority women and children, in order to steal their land right?....... right?
Sure, I thought ISIS had only killed 32,000 or so but others go under the radar like the religious nutters who’ve recently killed 277,000 in Yemen, or the thousands killed every year in India (many over allegations of eating cows). Add to that the role of which brand of Jesus you support feeding conflict in Ukraine and Putin’s weaponisation of the Orthodox Church and it’s clear that religious fanaticism feeds most of the world’s death and despair.
If you took 2 seconds to look into it you’d see they are protesting the Australian government supplying weapons to the IDF. Local weapons being manufactured and shipped from our ports over to Israel. Seems what action they want the government to take is pre clear…
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Please keep it civil or we will have to lock the post Edit : it’s now locked
Its gonna be even harder to make a hook turn now
Safe to assume it's affecting trams?
Correct trams are all backed up both directions
Well shit. Hopefully it calms down later or I'm going to be late
Despite whether people agree with the motives or messages of a protest, it's really, really important to protect Aussies' right to protest. Obviously in a way that doesn't put anyone in danger - blocking ambulances etc. Even if it's inconvenient for a period of time, it's necessary to have that right. Slippery slope without it.
Obstructive protests is what lead to the new laws in SA that now include 50k fines for blocking traffic. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-19/unions-and-human-rights-groups-slam-sa-protest-law-change/102367076
“Don’t protest because protesting can lead to protest being outlawed”
Use to be protests would happen where the production was happening in order to create pressure for change but as we don't produce much anymore and what we do produce is heavily protected the next best thing is block traffic. It sucks but protests are not about being convenient.
I strongly support the right to protest, I have concerns over our next union rally now with these laws. These laws are not good and were rushed through as a knee jerk to people getting pissed off. But now there's a precedent other states may follow. I hope your government is better than ours.
They’re blocking main roads. So how’re they not potentially blocking ambulances?
That's usually why they work with cops for logistics. It's about ensuring people will always have that right to engage the police when they want to protest.
Most protests coordinate to let ambulances through.
They are welcome to stand on the sidewalk and hold up signs like respectable protests do. What they are doing here is restricting access to tax funded infrastructure to the general public and it isn't your or their place to decide whether it's dangerous or inconvenient. I'm sure whatever they are protesting is important **to them**, but that doesn't give them the right to impede everyone else's life.
All I'm saying is if you restrict rights to protest, it's a slippery slope to other scary or restrictive laws. The average citizen doesn't have the ability to send a loud political message without a protest. It's one of the very few things people can do to get their voice out. That's why having the ability and right to work with police while protesting is important.
There are plenty of places to protest without blocking traffic.
That negates the point. The point is disruption to get noticed. It's inconvenient, yes, but that is the whole purpose.
It’s more than inconvenient, it could easily be life threatening if emergency services are blocked. who draws the line between inconvenience and illegal obstruction? People can protest on the side of the road and be noticed just as much. Also, blocking traffic actually harms their cause. Who wants to support a group that made you late to work, a job interview, an important presentation, a school or uni exam… etc.
Yes, it's important to work with police for protests so logistics can be safely accounted for. Ambos can be informed that roads ABC are being used for protests, so use alternative routes XYZ. The only times I've ever encountered protests in Syd and Melb, I was truly only put out for about 15-20 minutes.
You realise it’s not just the immediate road that is affected by the protests right? It will affect all surrounding roads as well and can cause huge traffic jams. 15-20 minutes can mean the difference between life and death. Would you want that if your son/daughter or parent was on the way to the hospital after an emergency incident? Put yourself in the shoes of others.
Yes much better to protest in ways that nobody will notice hey
Sidewhat?
Just wish people knew the facts about what they are protesting, like ever. I asked a person if they knew it was illegal to be gay in Palestine, and they said I was a liar and a Zionist supporter, lmao. Ok, bud.
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While we are at it we may aswell stop supplying weapons to both sides of a civil war in africa
I remember a few weeks ago seeing a "Stop Vaccine Mandates and Lockdowns" protest. Who on earth is protesting such a non-issue in 2024? cookers.
It's a social club at this point, nothing else.
They are still protesting Dan Andrews too.
Idk but as someone who has just been reminded how shit covid is please vaccinate
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RMIT was also doing development of drones around 2011 too from memory.
We sell them parts for the f35 bombers they're using...to bomb people.Have whatever opinion you like on the conflict...but your characterisation of our military trade with them is simply inaccurate. Not a lot of alternative uses for f35 bomber parts tbh
We don’t directly export F-35 parts to Israel. There are private Australian companies, like Heat Treatment Australia, that make parts or processes that are then sold to Lockheed Martin, among many other companies. Lockheed Martin then sells planes to the IDF. At no point in the process does Australia directly supply Israel, again, it’s a function of international trade and is being a member of the global supply chain.
You got dismissed in your reply but I do want to give you an upvote and Credible answer which is rare in this thread. I can appreciate however that even in your wording of not directly supplying Israel may as well be seen as directly supplying Israel from the point of view of the person your replying to.
They have F15's and F16's which are far better at the job as they carry more and cost less to operate. But we sold the last batch of F35 parts to the USA over 7 years ago. The lies being pushed by this group only undermine them as the details are easily available.
it's a little disingenuous and a little scare tactic-y to call the F35 a bomber as it's multirole (used in combat air patrol, recon missions) and also protects various shipping lanes around the world, including the china sea. the parts australia sells go into a pool which are made into aircraft and then sold off by the manufacturers to whoever bought them. do you suggest we stop making the F35 and have the entirety of NATO be open to attack because we don't want to manufacture more components for it just because of Israel? being part of the joint fighter program we can't just *not contribute* parts to countries we don't like.
I can’t help but think there is a bullshit reasoning produced each week for why they are protesting. If simply arming and aiding countries and groups was enough to have people protesting, where are the college campus protests in America? Saudi Arabia is the biggest buyer of US Weapons and they have recently killed 400,000 or so in Yemen. And I’ve not once heard of a protest even though “USA is complicit as they are arming them”. I just don’t buy it. Hating on Israel is just the latest trend.
I’d wager most people aren’t seeing the constant images of death and destruction from Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Doesn’t mean they aren’t against and wouldn’t protest those atrocities either. Also are you really arguing. “There are other genocides being commuted by other awful groups, so the one committed by Israel is okay?” I hope not. People have been protesting these other war crimes. Not nearly at the same scale. But now that we’re talking about it. Maybe more will. If you call hating on a tyrant trying to exterminate a people a trend. Sure. I’m on that trend.
>I’d wager most people aren’t seeing the constant images of death and destruction from Saudi Arabia or Yemen. Doesn’t mean they aren’t against and wouldn’t protest those atrocities either. Well then, why aren't they? >Also are you really arguing. “There are other genocides being commuted by other awful groups, so the one committed by Israel is okay?” I never said that.
Being better than 90% of protests is a very low bar
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I'm yet to see anything explain what we're exporting to Israel that has everyone so upset. We actually import weapon systems from Israel, so really we're helping to disarm them?
I think it's more that selling arms is a key part of showing support to the regime and accepting complicity in their actions. What the protestors really want is for Australia to apply whatever diplomatic levers at their disposal to try to bring the conflict to an end, ending arms sales is one of those levers. It doesn't just prevent Israel from receiving the physical arms, it also shows that they do not have Australia's support for their actions in Gaza and would highlight how they are isolating themselves from the international community. Currently, the Government's stance looks more like "we're happy with whatever Israel does, they are a key ally". Which plays an (admittedly small) part in Israel's ongoing calculations, and in the USA's calculations. If the USA was the only country continuing to support Israel militarily that would put a lot of pressure on Biden to be more firm with Israel, and he does actually have significant power to reign them in if he really wanted to. Beyond that, the Australian Government don't sell any arms whatsoever to ISIS or North Korea for reasons that are obvious to everyone, to many people those same reasons straightforwardly apply to Israel as well.
Till the Israel “regime” of elected officials that uses a parliamentary system just like ours. Which somehow you think is comparable to North Korea and isis.
They do operate in an area with more strictly contested notions of nationality and citizenship. Someone born nominally in Israel who doesn’t fit the correct ethnic criteria isn’t allowed to vote, it’s pretty easy to frame that as systematic disenfranchisement of an indigenous population, and as such not a true democracy.
All Israeli citizens can vote no matter their ethnicity. Stop with the disinformation.
Someone born in Australia to parents without permanent residency or citizenship aren’t allowed to vote either. What’s your point? Gaza and the West Bank aren’t part of Israel so why would they be allowed to vote.
>Gaza and the West Bank aren’t part of Israel so why would they be allowed to vote. Correct, only Israeli citizens are allowed to vote like here in Australia. Israeli citizenship includes the 20% Arab population (former Palestinian) and all other citizens of any ethnicity are allowed to vote.
Do these people want everyone in a country to have the right to vote. Or do they just want the West Bank and Gaza to be able to vote in Israeli elections?
What are you talking about??
>and as such not a true democracy. Israel as a state has been surrounded by hostile dictators and autocracies for its entire existence. Since the first day of statehood its neighbors tried to conquer it. Israel is amazing that in that region of the world surrounded by such harsh external pressures and political systems that it has managed to stay so free and democratic is a feat unto itself. It is by no means perfect but considering its environmental factors the fact it hasn't slid into autocracy is worth applauding.
Wrong. Again.
Did you really just compare Israel to North Korea and ISIS? Nobody wants to see more dead civilians in Gaza but that's a bit much.
Do you mean they aren’t comparable morally?
Act like terrorists, get called terrorists. If the shoe fits..
What do you call Hamas?
I'm saying that there can be reasons for not selling arms beyond the material impact. The actions of some states are morally repugnant enough that you should not sell them arms. I said nothing about whether Israel is as bad as North Korea or ISIS, I think it's a stupid question to begin with. The point of using those states as an example is that nearly everyone agrees we shouldn’t supply them with arms. The entire point of analogies is that the things are not the same. If I said jumping a bmx over a ramp for the first time gives you a feeling of triumph like the first time they put a man on the moon, I'm not saying "you can get to the moon with a bmx and a ramp".
I mean there is one group which does want more dead civilians in Gaza and they are in Isreal. We have had members of Bibi's coalition suggest nuking Palestinians whilst others suggest annexing the Gaza Strip. I think it's a more far fetched statement than comparing Isreal to Isis. Jewish ISIS is what happens if Ben-Gvir and Smotrich get in charge.
Did you really just say that importing weapons from an arms manufacturer disarms them? Do you think they have 10 arms then 2 go to another country so they have 8? Thats not how arms manufacturing works. What is does is allow Israel to spend more money on weapons research, reinvest back into importing offensive weapons, and keep its local weapons manufacturing business churning out more
We just made a billion dollar deal with Elbit.
...which does not involve exporting arms from Australia to Israel
>We actually import weapon systems from Israel, so really we're helping to disarm them? Is this serious?
Well the ABC made an FOI request regarding the $900m deal but Israel vetoed it. Just because you haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist lol.
The deal with Elbit systems? Hardly need a FOI for that one. Elbit will supply sensors and active protection systems for our future IFV which will be manufactured in Australia. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but there's a lot of noise about us "exporting weapons" with seemingly little information to back up the claims.
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I mean, there's no technically about it. It does. Haha.
> We actually import weapon systems from Israel, so really we're helping to disarm them? ...... Maybe we shouldn't support their arms industry either, now that you mention it....
We help to provide targeting information via the pine gap joint cia site
People are confusing private companies in Australia doing business with the IDF with the government supplying the IDF arms. Most of the people carrying on, blocking roads and being a public nuisance aren't the brightest bunch anyway.
The Victorian gov made a direct deal with an Israeli arms manufacturer. Just because you’re uninformed about the protest - doesn’t mean the protesters are!
Have you read the media release by trade unionists for palestine? You're calling them uninformed but you seem to be confused about the basic facts being discussed here.
Do you understand that governments do this magical thing called sanctions ? If an Aussie company started selling uranium to North Korea, the government would intervene. You could at least have the faintest idea about reality before you comment on others intelligence What a bright sub
On the other hand, we literally just [signed a billion dollar deal](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-28/israeli-weapons-company-awarded-australian-army-contract/103519558) with an Israeli weapons manufacturer.
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If a hospital is being used as a military base (beyond treating civilians and injured combatants) then by the rules of war it becomes a legitimate military target. Hamas is using hospitals as bars for two main reasons: 1. Generally militaries (including Israel) take steps to avoid hitting them, thereby giving cover to it's fighters and assets; and 2. Hamas's strategy in part hinges on goading Israel into striking ostensibly civilian targets and human shields so it can use them for propaganda purposes.
If they stopped bombing. The civilians would stop dying. What your missing is the ongoing efforts of Israel to occupy Palestinian land. They WANT to destroy hospitals and buildings so they can take over. After they go into the destroyed hospitals the IDF have been proven to have to fake the evidence of military activity to justify their attacks. By claiming that it is ok to bomb hospitals for whatever reason is just spreading IDF propaganda and breaking international laws.
The evidence that hamas extensively uses hospitals Is limited, but Israel has extensively bombed hospitals in gaza. If hamas is fighting this war as an insurgency, even using hospitals as covers, Israel should fight the war as an anti-insurgency, not a bombing campaign. If that was the case, Israel would not entirely crumble all of gazas infrastructure, which they have. Israel is does not intend to eradicate hamas while retaining gaza, they intend to eradicate gaza.
Entirely correct. Israel claimed they did not strike hospitals, then they bombed every single hospital in Gaza. The rhetoric isn't worth debating anymore. It's a genocide.
WaPo did a good article on this that you should read. www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel
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I'm not fine with ambulances and humanitarian aid workers being hit. Or are they hamas too?
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It's actually happening, Israel constantly bombs humanitarian workers.
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That’s literally why Hamas use humans shields. Because they know their enemy has a moral obligation to question taking such a shot, and would take a moral and propaganda loss in the west (like they are now) if they did. It’s exactly why they do it. Imagine if the Israelites fought standing infront of their own women and children: Hamas would see a 2 for 1 special. And no one would protest them to stop.
But… they don’t question taking those shots? Thats why they say 33,000 people are dead with only about 10k of those being Hamas. So your argument doesn’t make any sense.
Intelligence sharing goes both ways. You don’t share information with them, so why would they ever share information, for example a terrorist plot with us?
I think sharing tech and intelligence with one of the highest tech countries when it comes to military equipment is something we should continue doing. If you actually believe the IDF are targeting hospitals you need to get out of your conspiracy chat groups.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_the_State_of_Palestine Go to the hospitals in gaza section, and work your way through the hospitals, I'll give you a point for each hospital that hasn't been bombed or attacked by the IDF.
It's so disgusting and disheartening the amount of brain dead "aw y we even proteshtin for hummus r the bad guys, free israel" Commentary on every one of these posts. Just say you support genocide and hate Brown people.
Israelis are 70% "brown" you numbskull.
Explain that to the people supporting Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_the_State_of_Palestine Go to the hospitals in gaza section, click on the links for each one. If drove my car into a shop front 30 times, repeatedly I am sure the conspiracy theorists on whatsapp would start wondering too.
Yeah the hospital thing is such a weird hill to die on. The IDF have shown that Hamas really are building their defensive infrastructure around hospitals with the explicit goal of baiting *exactly* the kinds of comments you're replying to. Even if you hate Israel, I don't see how you can look at the hospital stuff and conclude anything other than maybe Hamas should stop hiding their top commanders in hospitals. At the very least it's a case where both sides are directly culpable. And at worst the person your replying to has just bought the Hamas propaganda hook, line and sinker.
Not when they're using it to bomb civilians and humanitarian aid convoys.
We get much more from them than they do from us, and they aren’t doing that.
[https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2024/4/2/israeli-strike-kills-seven-world-central-kitchen-workers](https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2024/4/2/israeli-strike-kills-seven-world-central-kitchen-workers) [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-central-kitchen-aid-worker-killings-israel-deconfliction-rcna146550](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-central-kitchen-aid-worker-killings-israel-deconfliction-rcna146550) [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-12/israel-denies-bombing-palestinian-red-crescent-ambulance-gaza/103312722](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-12/israel-denies-bombing-palestinian-red-crescent-ambulance-gaza/103312722)
They have, but the problem is they're also Hamas operations centres There is no black and white, good and evil in this war.
Hospitals with no patients and only munitions aren’t hospitals.
I don't know if that's true, but sure. I don't know if al-Shifa hospital was empty of patients, That's certainly not everyone's story. That's not MCF's opinion, and personally I trust their statements.
Elbit have offices here.
> A locally relevant, clearly-stated goal that I reckon a lot of Aussies would agree with if they knew it was happening. I doubt it, but i wouldn't want to speak for a lot of Aussies im just one guy. Should military procurement be decided by protestors? I would assume that the top Australian military experts buy and sell to further the goals of Australia, not the middle east. Israel is one of the most advanced militaries in the world, there is NOTHING Australia can produce or create that Israel wouldn't have access to something better from U.S or produced at home. On the other hand we buy a lot of their systems because they are better than our own... In any case ill eat a bag of hats if a small group of protesters can effect military procurement policy... We shall see i suppose.
Military procurement has more to do with signaling political allegiance than anything else. It’s why so many countries buy from France these days, it signals alignment with the west without buying directly from the US.
Banner supporting intifada so the rape, torture and murder as on 7th October. Should be arrested and charged with supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
The Australian Government does nothing of the sort. Military manufacturing etc is done by private companies and has nothing to do with the Government. Why would the government want to block exports to an allied nation, and one that is currently battling the terrorist group these protesters represent?
> Military manufacturing etc is done by private companies and has nothing to do with the Government. If you're trying to say that we have no control over what we export that's obviously not remotely true. Why are you lying? > Why would the government want to block exports to an allied nation Due to the famine, civilian deaths and the Australian or international aid workers being shot at.
Yeah the government is being very disingenuous about saying we don't supply arms when we're selling them parts for their f35 bombers. Given thats the narrative being run by Wong you can understand why people are confused though.
Isn't the F-35 thing because we selling parts to the program, which is international and Israel is just a part of. We can't stop doing that without pulling out of the entire program.
Nah, Holland has already stopped and they're part of the JSF, Israel isn't. But yeah...they probably would just make their own...but then at least we're not involved.
The Netherlands example seems to be because a warehouse in their country was shipping directly to Israel. I might be wrong but I don't think we are doing the same thing, we make parts that go to such warehouses that then might be supplied to Israel.
No no... we're doing exactly the same thing. I mean...whether we should be doing so or not is up for each individual to decide...but the facts are what they are. We make them...we sell them...we ship them. The government certainly could stop it, whether they should or not is subjective. The fact we're doing it is objective reality. You could argue the government is technically being truthful since we don't send completed equipment...and that's what the UN ROCA defines as "arms". Australia's own Defence and Strategic Goods List however does explicitly count parts for the purposes of the Arms Trade Treaty..So by the UN definition we aren't...but by Australia's definition...we are. The government has to approve the exports, for obvious reasons. They could not approve them or withdraw the licences...which I gather is what the protesters are after.
I'm not saying that we couldn't, or even that we shouldn't, just the doing so is not as simple as the protestors are making it out to be. Like it's not stuff going from here directly to Israel that we could easily stop, and with little to no consequences.
I don't think that they sell them the parts directly, I believe Aussie companies sell the OEM parts, and then the OEM onsells the whole plane to Israel. How far back through the supply chain do you go, I'm sure that some of the iron ore we mine ends up doing bad things in many countries.
First, any parts we manufactured for the USA's F35 production line would have been over 7 years ago and nothing since. Second, we don't sell those parts to Israel or any other country we sell them to the USA. Finally the operational cost of the F35 is high compared to the F16 and F15 which Israel has been operating for years, so they won't even be using the F35 in this conflict. edit: The coward responded and blocked me to stop my response so I'll update this post: > They have 36 of them in service...but I suspect you knew that. Like honestly...if you're just outright lie s obviously.. what even is the point? They're literally using them right now for close aid support lol I mean ..dude. fuck off. And we do sell them to Israel. They have a very high operational cost double that of F15's and F16's whilst carrying less bombs because they're stealth fighters. You don't need stealth fighters when you have total air control over the battlefield. They'd be an expensive and wasteful option when they could just operate their other fighters. No we don't sell parts to Israel that isn't how the parts supply chain works and never has, we sell them to the USA and that's the last we see or hear of those parts.
Saying Australia is barely involved is demonstrably and blatantly false. You can't really flatten Australia and Israel's binding allyship, rhetorical support and deals/MOUs that easily. Hell, it's taken this long to kick out Israeli influence from our universities.
Alot of people don't like Israel Adesanya to the point of protests it seems.
There's supposed to be a protest at my work today.
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"The Jews"? Always was, always will be.
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“Palestine” protesters aggressive? No no no, you must be mistaken.
Literally dozens of them!
That’s like 80 people. Maybe a main road is not the best place for this with so few people.
Yeah they should do it where nobody will notice, much better idea
Do these people have jobs ? Legit question
The funniest parts at the end of these recent protests is observing the muslims with a Quran in hand trying to convert obviously gay young uni students to Islam who are too scared to just say no
Random Aboriginal flag in the middle made me chuckle a little. I thought this is supposed to be for Palestine, am I missing something?
not exactly a million man march , is it
Gonna be ironic when they get what they want, Palestine becomes a powerful recognised state and starts offing people for being homosexual or lgbtq. "You kissed another man? Yeah, 10 years in prison for you buddy!"
They are now sitting down in the middle of the street, can't leave my building to get a coffee Fuck me
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No go when the building is in lockdown mate
Sounds like you have an overly dramatic building management team.
Which intersection is it? Edit: Nevermind, I can see it's Collins and Exhibition. Glad I didn't go to work in the city today! Sorry you're stuck with it, OP.
This is happening in front of Collins place where the Sofitel is
Look at all the Useful Idiots
They are now moving on. Where to next don't know don't care. All i know I'd now is coffee time
Here's a idea, why don't we look after our own back yard. Domestic violence , people living below the poverty line. Housing crisis cost of living. And that horrible incident in Sydney. How about we fix our own issues first.
A lot of people involved in these protests also work on these issues. It’s not an either/or choice. It’s also true that Australia is complicit in this genocide because of weapons manufacturing (the point of this particular protest today).
> Own back yard vs > Sydney
Hamas is a terror organisation with one goal which is Jihad. Free Palestine from Hamas
Git off the fkn road
I see an Aboriginal flag. Ironically, the Jews are indigenous people. There has been a continuous presence of Jews in what is now Israel for thousands of years. Most of the recent immigrants — Jews from Iraq, and Syria, and Yemen, and Libya, and other Muslim-majority countries were driven from their homes by their Muslim neighbors after 1948, in collective punishment for the founding of Israel. Is anyone talking about their right of return? There are displaced people everywhere on Earth, but only the Palestinians have been turned into a global fetish, for their right of return. In any case, Israel is not unique among states in having been created by outside powers. Pakistan was born in the same year and in the same way, and yet no one questions its right to exist. Nearly every nation on Earth has emerged from a chaotic history of conquest and the displacement of people. There are now 22 official Muslim States and over 50 Muslim-majority countries. This is the result of centuries of Muslim conquest. There is exactly one Jewish state. And yet only Israel must continuously confront charges of its illegitimacy. Only Israel must continually advocate for its right to exist.
Performative wankers.
Why is there an Aboriginal flag???
Man these people fucking suck
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There’s videos of a pro-Palestine protestors celebrating when someone on a megaphone announce Iran is sending drones to Israel. Source: https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1779266763516973264 (You can downvote me if you want, does not make anything I say incorrect. I brought the receipts. Challenge what I said is wrong if you feel differently)
Israel deliberately provoked that by bombing an embassy. Netanyahu wants a calculated escalation of the conflict in the region for political goals and needs to be protested against
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you can absolutely guarantee the Unites States embassies in all sorts of countries supply the same thing, and no doubt Australian embassies are used in some capacity around the world for espionage. are they valid military targets that should draw no response if attacked by someone hostile to us? or is international law only for others? Im sure youre right that Iran uses Hamas as proxy to an extent, they do of course do that openly in Lebanon
> are they valid military targets that should draw no response if attacked by someone hostile to us? If Australian embassy's around the world are plotting October 7 like attacks, and carry through with it, I absolutely would expect them to be targeted.
Fucking useless wankers
I hate protestors who blocked traffic.
It boggles the mind how Netanyahu just pretends to not see the news about the protests in Melbourne and just makes Israel march into the sea.
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I've been saying it's only a noisy minority who want Israel wiped from the face of the earth. Thanks for the photographic proof!
cant even get a normal day in melbourne with all of these bullshit protests thats doing nothing
"Unionists For Palestine" Aren't Unionists supposed to be supporters of a very different kind of union? Never seen the term used for Labour unions before. Perhaps I'm just solely familiar to the other context.
Centrelink is funding that, I.e. the workers all around them.
Cookers
Their protest is mild (disruptive, yes), compared to what I experienced in the Hong Kong 2019 riots. I protested on the streets against John Howard’s decision to send our boys to the war in Iraq more than a decade ago. Nothing changed. Our soldiers were still sent there. This protest will not change anything.
I think aggressive religious nutters have done enough harm in Australia for a few days. Just F off home you flogs. Also cops should charge them all with J walking and banners calling for Intifada should be deemed as hate speech and confiscated and destroyed…
Not just the religious nutters. I personally know people who went to some early protests with good intentions, i.e. calling for peace. But they stopped going with neo-Nazis turned up literally calling for... well you can guess.
What aggressive religious nutters? Not wanting to supply weapons to an ongoing genocide doesn't make someone a religious nutter Peaceful protests are a cornerstone of democracy
These protests kicked off on October 7th following one of the worst religiously motivated incidents of terrorism in history. The events in Bondi on the weekend highlight the link between religious nutters and using gendered violence to seek attention. Some may argue the religions are different but they are effectively the same. Fundamentalists are dangerous, divisive and cruel.
Worst religiously motivated event in history 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂someone has no idea about history. And is motivated by blind hatred. Racism
One of the worst, it’s not a competition. Denial of how awful Hamas’ actions on October 7th were feeds my hatred for them but it has nothing to do with racism. I have a lot of Russian heritage and stand 100% with Ukraine, race doesn’t factor into my political stances. Blind tribalism is the enemy of a peaceful planet and that’s what many of these pro Hamas protesters are exhibiting.
The aggressive neo-Nazis piggy backing on the initial peaceful protests are a problem.
You mean the aggressive religious nutters that have killed over 34000 people, majority women and children, in order to steal their land right?....... right?
Sure, I thought ISIS had only killed 32,000 or so but others go under the radar like the religious nutters who’ve recently killed 277,000 in Yemen, or the thousands killed every year in India (many over allegations of eating cows). Add to that the role of which brand of Jesus you support feeding conflict in Ukraine and Putin’s weaponisation of the Orthodox Church and it’s clear that religious fanaticism feeds most of the world’s death and despair.
Is that it?
This won't change anything 🤣 government never listens to its people
wow big turnout. must be a real hot button issue
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If you took 2 seconds to look into it you’d see they are protesting the Australian government supplying weapons to the IDF. Local weapons being manufactured and shipped from our ports over to Israel. Seems what action they want the government to take is pre clear…
What weapons are being manufactured in Australia and exported to Israel?
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When can we do a protest to stop protest?
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> Tell them its not done here Protests aren’t done here? Is this North Korea?
What would your chants be? Kill more children? Wipe out people? Arm more genocidal countries?
Progenocide protestors to counter the anti genocide protest? Try hitting up some western suburbs boxing gyms
It's a war not a genocide.
You'll have to take that up with every lawyer on the topic since none of them agree with you but it does meet the UN definition