If this actually happens it will be the greatest thing ever (only some hyperbole). Reliable public transport between the suburbs has IMO always been Melbourne's biggest missing piece in PT, and this couldn't be more timely with increasing train and CBD congestion.
Absolutely. I live in Northcote and used to work in Cheltenham. I could drive to reservoir and train to Cheltenham and totally avoid Hoddle St and Nepean Hwy with this. Would do amazing things for the road network and people who actually need to drive.
That depends on how many stations there are on the suburban loop. If it only stops a few times between Reservoir and Cheltenham, it might be quicker than stopping at about 30 stations along the way *and* changing trains at the mid-point.
Which is a problem in itself. Not enough stations means it takes longer to get to a station and people might end up taking some other form of transport. Too many stations slows it down and makes some other form of transport (or a train via the CBD) more attractive.
Then I suppose one incentive of using the suburban loop is that it's entirely in zone 2, so a cheaper fare. But then it also introduces another problem of whether myki assumes you've gone through the CBD to charge you a zone 1+2 or assumes you've taken the loop and charge a zone 2 only.
Plenty of time to figure it out though.
> Not enough stations means it takes longer to get to a station and people might end up taking some other form of transport.
Given that it's planned to cross almost every other train line, I think the idea is that you would go to your nearest existing station on your nearest existing train line, and start your journey there.
This suburban loop looks like it's mainly designed to give you a shortcut from one train line to another, rather than being a stopping-all-stations service throughout the outer suburbs.
Still makes me wonder why it’s so deep in the north. Broady, Fawkner, Resi is some real planning for 50 years from now. I liked the suggestion the other day that went Coburg, Preston, northland because it meets a lot of current needs.
Obviously this is a bit of a different vision of the future.
A very different idea of how jobs will work in the north.
I'm pretty sure a decent percentage of the trains themselves and materials in the rail and equipment is Australian too so most of this money will just cycle back through the economy anyway.
A smart idea would be to team up with developers to build shopping centres / residential towers above the new train stations. The steady flow of PT users would ensure good business for these stores & the costs of building the stations would be off-set by having the developers chip in.
Some of the stations already have something like that, Box Hill being the stand out.
It's actually fairly common in Asia, too, although I obviously don't have the context on how those ones came to be.
If you're going to be a Keynesian, and it sounds like you want to be one, you should know this:
Big fiscal stimulus is best at times of high unemployment, not at times where the unemployment rate is 5.1%. Trump made this mistake with his mega tax cut.
This is not to say this is a bad project - I'm for it - but a 'boost the economy' argument is a bad reason to build it at this time.
Thing is it seems a lot of unemployment is being hidden behind unstable or poorly paying casual work, so the realistic figure is probably into the high range. And many of the areas in which this project would be being built have higher rates of unemployment anyway.
The weakening of unions and general deregulation is really letting employers get away with a lot. My mate's working close to 40 hour weeks on 18-year old pay whilst older employees are getting called in for split shifts and fucked around to whatever's most conver and profitable for the bussiness.
This whole spiel of deregulation giving us lower unemployment might give us better paper numbers but the reality for working class people on the ground is a lack of security and rights at work.
Bunch of crybabys in Yarraville are trying it on to get compo out of the government because the Westgate Tunnel is going to run 20 meters under their houses. They are worried that if a Supervillan wants to buy their house to build a secret lair underneath they will get less money.
This is one thing that about democracy that lets us down, politicians think and acting in the short term rather than past the next term. I caught a quick grab of Daniel Andrews saying he won't be premier when this is completed. Well done to him and his team.
FFS..."just an election promise". Last big election promise he made, he kept despite how unpopular that was. In fact, I think he's stuck to his guns for all his promises since the last election. Happy to stand corrected though.
>"It's going to be too expensive"
>
>"It's going to take too long"
That's [literally the angle](https://imgur.com/a/P3iycHr) the Herald Sun is going with... *in the headline*.
Yep, perfectly fair enough! I couldn't imagine getting from Frankston to Clayton without a car without something like this orbital loop, what a nightmare that would be.
Train guru Daniel Bowen's blog on this: [https://www.danielbowen.com/2018/08/28/orbital-rail-proposal/](https://www.danielbowen.com/2018/08/28/orbital-rail-proposal/)
> And yes, suddenly some other Labor ideas make sense in context, such as Monash Uni/Rowville light rail instead of heavy — the heavy rail option would be Clayton to Monash instead.
Yep, important point there. Seems to fall into place. Dandrews playing 4D chess, Mathew Guy playing with crayon lobsters.
This is an absolute game changer. It connects Monash Uni, Deakin Uni, Latrobe Uni, Doncaster shopping centre, a new airport rail link and down to sunshine and werribee. Honestly im ready to go full shill mode here but if the Victoria votes in the liberals at the election we deserve everything we get.
I don't think the value of this train project is in question- it's a great idea- but what is in question is how serious the government is. I don't want the government to commit to a study to examine the feasibility of the project- studies into public transport are notorious for going nowhere and frequently producing plainly incorrect results. I want this damned thing built, even if they just start on one section for now...
The election promise is $300m for planning, with the aim to get started in 2022. That's enough money, and a concrete-enough goal, that I'd say they're pretty serious about it.
Even that is pretty ambitious. Doubt that there has been any serious planning behind this as the routes are just straight lines. Projects of this scale need a lot of lead in time
From what Dandrews said, there's 12 months of planning that has gone into this before the announcement was made. Yeah it's not shovel ready but it sounds like there's a bit more to it than drawn on the back of a napkin at lunch.
Yeah it depends on which bit has had 12 months planning. Airport rail is part of this and that has been worked on for about 12 months. The rest of it I'd be pretty sketchy in how much its been planned.
I mean realistically he's picked a cracking time to drop it! Main footy season ends, which means a week of less footy in the media with the bye. The federal libs just shat themselves publicly and got rid of Victoria's favourite liberal pm for Scomo and reminded everyone of Dutton and Abbott, and the libs instability (which plagued the bailieu/napthine government too). And he's already nailed the Airport Rail link to huge applause, and finished major sections of existing infrastructure upgrades to the rail network.
Daniel, well fucking played!
Well they have a track record of delivering on infrastructure projects (Melb Metro, Boom Gate removals) so I would have some faith, usually the politicians do this, but Dan Andrews has delivered so far, and therefore has some credibillity.
Was at a family function on the weekend and it amazing when you talk about individual issues we're facing, everyone seemed to support what Dan Andrews is doing and would be against a Liberal government. Then ask them who they are going to vote for and they swing straight to Liberal. It staggers me how idealistic so many people are about politics and the way they vote.
There’s nothing to say the Liberals won’t back this idea, it’s not a particularly new one. The Greens proposed a similar plan in 2010 as have the Liberals at earlier times. I just want some new rail.
> There’s nothing to say the Liberals won’t back this idea
In the current political climate, we've seen political parties from everywhere on the political spectrum arguing against good ideas *just because they come from the other side*. Opposition parties everywhere seem to be becoming more obstructionist just for the sake of it.
And even when the Libs agreed with Labor about an underground rail tunnel under the CBD, they both had different plans for where it should go.
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the Liberal Party to back this idea.
The libs also opposed FTTN NBN when it was Labors idea and demanded FTTP. They called FTTN "Fraudband."
They'll oppose anything Labor propose, even if it's something they've proposed themselves previously.
I wrote this in another thread but this is what the liberals will say
"Liberals denounces the unnecessary spending and wasting of taxpayers money for building a rail network between suburbs and cites the expensive blowout costs of trains and how obsolete trains will be in a decade from now when people will be flying around in jetpacks. Instead, the Liberals proposes a cheaper and better alternative that will achieve the same result which they deem MULTI TRANSPORTATION MIX. This will consist of a network of taxi/uber drivers, electric scooters and/or skateboards where people can then have a choice with the added benefits of being able to deliver a more versatile transportation network quicker and most importantly, save tax payers money. Vote Liberals if you don't want to waste unnecessary money!"
Mark my words and watch this space. :)
Sadly The spend is far enough into the future that the libs can commit to build this too without worrying about it. Neutralise the electoral advantage, move on to crime.
Love it. Could be the defining project of this city for the next 100 years. There’s no more space for roads. Time to get public transport up to scratch and leave the roads for people who actually need to drive. Bravo, Dan.
More importantly in my opinion is that by the looks of things it's xompletelt underground, so will not add any further congestion to the already bulging current system with minimal impact to homes, business's, roads and other infrastructure in the outer suburbs.
Or extend the tram service from Vermont all the way to Knox, then connect it the proposed orbital rail between Glen Waverley and Box Hill rather than using Burwood.
And they should stop most new road projects now in favour of PT, especially heavy rail. It costs billions to add just one freeway lane, which quickly fills to capacity. Rather than reducing congestion, it actually increases it as you have given more people the option to drive. This point has been missed in the last three decades of governments (from both sides) building and expanding roads.Meanwhile, one six-carriage train service removes hundreds of cars from the roads. It is cheaper to build, and requires less ongoing maintenance costs over the life of the project.I hope they build this, they build Metro 2, Geelong rail to Torquay and work on opening up capacity on the Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Albury and Traralgon lines.And for god's sake get a service running from Horsham to Melbourne as well.
At least the big road projects NEL/WGT provides important linkage for heavy road freight, unlike the EWL. Your standard 100t load isn't going to catch the train to where it needs to go.
And then we still need some road upgrades to keep things flowing as we transition from road to PT with a significantly growing city otherwise it all freezes up. Think of it like a phased transition approach.
At the moment Melbourne/Victoria is all Melbourne CBD centric, which is wasting transport capacity regardless of how many trains are going.
So far we've done what we can with our current rail network, huge visionary projects are needed to change things up, and stuff like Metro 2 still really isn't much more than a band-aid.
Next up, outer victorian city fast rail loop. (Please)
Yep that’s why I said most road projects, obviously some are and will be required in the future. Taking the load off the West Gate Bridge is a hugely important project, Geneva the WGT.
I know less about NEL and it’s benefits but assume it would allow freight heading to or from the south eastern suburbs/regional areas to head up to the Hume, without having to go down the Monash, Burnley Tunnel or City Link.
I was targeting more short term road solutions, such as widening existing freeways, ehh rarely eases peak congestion.
I understand your scepticism, I'm living in Sydney at the moment and frankly every time anyone from Government promises anything I've started to just roll my eyes. To be fair to the NSW Gov, they have got a number of transport projects off the ground and rolling, but they're a bit of a shambles.
This made me excited though, it's bold and it looks well beyond just the election cycle. I think they really mean and I really hope it bears fruit.
The problem with PTV's plan is it's mostly reactive (how can we make our current network meet future demand with some minor extensions), and it hasn't been updated since 2013. I presume that there's an internal plan that's more ambitious and that they've been keeping secret so they can announce the big things like this during the election.
This is different from the PTV plan, these kinds of projects are city-shaping and would fundamentally change how we experience and get around Melbourne, they'd increase public transport use while setting off a huge round of development in the outer suburbs at these new stations and interchanges. Real cities like Singapore plan projects like this all at once (this, MM2) and then stagger the build so they're basically going from one project to the next. That said a city that's reaching Melbourne's scale could build both at essentially the same time, using the same boring machines and staff to bring down costs (Paris is a bit like this; the MM1 work is creating the capacity that will pay off if we quickly move onto a big pipeline of subway lines).
If I was a betting man I'd expect money for MM2 planning before the election, and a plan to be eventually released that has all of these things together.
Hopefully this is built using smaller, metro-tunnels with different rolling stock from our usual slow heavy rail. Lots of stops, fast subway trains would transform the city.
brb, just going to make a bot that devotes itself to fighting chess dimensionality inflation. It works by challenging users to a game of 2d chess, which if they win they can leave their original comment online but if they lose they must just write "chess".
(program requirements to keep chess 2d forever: windows 95 and 7kb ram.)
They’re apparently saying a 2022 start for construction, which is the same year they’ll start airport rail — so that means starting before MM1 finishes, which would mean rolling boring machines, construction over. Which is great as it’s save money and get it all going quickly etc.
Question is where does MM2 fit into that timeline?
Interesting to look at the photos.
The Airport-Sunshine section is airport rail so we sort of know how that bit works.
The Sunshine to Werribee section is a bit far fetched I would have thought. I'm guessing that section is pretty unknown
I don't know how I plan to go to work after reading this, I am going to struggle to not get an erecton every time I think about this absolute gem of a project.
Well... If you're still at uni in 10+ years, sure. (Though probably a few decades later than that in reality)
Still, fantastic for the future of Melbourne even if we won't reap the benefits of it for a long, long time.
Having just moved back from London and having spent a lot of time whinging about Melbourne’s PT, this would be amazing. However, I’ll wait for a few more details before getting too excited 🤞
Melbourne's is quite rudimentary compared to the complex network of trains in London. They come often and they cover most areas. Brits love to whinge about their public transport system but they have no idea how good they have it compared to other first-world cities.
I've lived in countries with decentralized central business districts with much much higher populations and it's pure bliss compared to the state of our city and infrastructure, really hoping this doesn't get shut down.
Haven't seen an article confirming it but haven't checked tbf.
Tbh, I've been feeling it in the west since 3. I shudder to imagine how much worse it can get without appropriate planning with growth still in the double digits.
I’d like to see more details and commitment tbh, because we’ve been getting ‘concept rail investment’ and election promises for 50 years for airport rail, and still nadda.
Also looks like they’re not going to support Metro 2 :(
I've never seen a project concept like this from a major party though. This is extraordinarily ambitious, and will be popular. It's the type of thing that would change Melbourne and I hope they're committed to it.
I’ve lived through at least 6 election promises for airport rail. And we still haven’t put a shovel in the ground. I’m hopeful, but I’m just saying to temper your expectations.
Dan Andrews is pretty good at committing to promises, that’s why I like him. I honestly think he’d be a brilliant future PM based on all of the changes he has done to Melbourne. I like that he gets shit done.
So we've already had the Inner Circle railway line and the Outer Circle railway line... is this the medium or complete circle line? (despite it being further out than the outercircle line)
Edit: route map - https://i.imgur.com/5lmnlI0.jpg
Possibly our first actual metro line if it is segregated from the rest of the network.
And forward thinking longterm vision from a government, how good is that? No doubt a multi-stage project which would take a decade and a bit to complete. I'm sure the next federal labor government will throw a few billion at it too.
Amazing. Currently taking a train line in the east and having to get to another station in the south east, both the bus and taking a train back to near the city and switching to the other train usually takes the same amount of time.. I know that's the reason a lot of people I know just stick to driving instead because even heading from the east to the north, they have to head into the city first before heading north - doubles/triples their commute time.
Lobster Guy comes out with the criticism of "This is a project for the next generation.". He thinks that's a criticism....
Gives you an idea of his priorities and vision.
The more train lines/connections/underground the better.
We need more super forward infrastructure planning, it feels like we've really lagged behind in this regard.
Paris is doing this right as we speak (look up the Grand Paris Express) and it's an absolutely fantastic project to improve inter-suburban connectivity and enable significant upcoming for more housing and office space outside of the core.
I hope no one really expects this to be completed within the next 20 years. I’d be stoked to be proven wrong but this announcement doesn’t strike me as a pledge he can deliver, more of a ‘let’s add this into our party’s policy agenda’, which, while better than more roads policy, still holds nothing concrete and its timing so close to an election just seems like a ploy to say something no ones gonna object too.
But that’s probably just my cynicism for Australian politics showing.
> I hope no one really expects this to be completed within the next 20 years.
No one does. Even the announcement says construction will go from 2022 to 2050 - which is more than 30 years away.
I totally think it's doable within 20 years, we're building an infrastructure for these sorts of projects with the first metro tunnel, which is the first project of its type in forty years. If they build that capacity further they could roll construction straight from MM1 to this and MM2, have a real, steady pipeline of rail construction like Singapore and elsewhere.
As great of an idea as this is, it's crowd pleasing enough to make me sceptical.
The age now has the story, apparently more documents are being released at 10am with an official media address.
Thag happens with the third airport at monomeith, land is being reserved and construction between 2030 and 2040. Rail will open before then though more than likely once clyde rail is built.
I'm having 2007 NBN Labor proposal PTSD hearing this. This is the kind of project Libs will turn around and undermine thus costing us BILLIONS.
Fucking hell Dan, this is so necessary yet extremely risky. I'm skeptical, yet trusting because this guy has delivered on most promises time and time again.
I did market research for the Andrews Government last year. He's concerned about the network getting scrapped if the labor loses power. He's also extremely realistic about the cost and the time that it will take. He knows he will not get any kudos for this in the long run. The other participants were the worst. "But what if we spend all that money and the technology changes". I kept calmly explaining that technology can be upgraded as long as the infrastructure is there and our city is failing under the population pressure already. If we wait another 10 years we're fucked. They didn't get it. They kept talking about technology as if it was a point in time where all our problems would be resolved and we would realise the stupidity of past investments.
They didn't specify. It was single mums vs. the single uni student. One of them said "technology" and mob mentality ensued. They weren't sure of much except that it had to be a waste of tax payers money to start it now.
I wish it didn't come down to an election to get this sort of project happening.
I wish both parties could just see a good idea and agree on it for once so we don't have to choose between a douche and a shit sandwich to get some actual progress
The 2nd top comment on the HS: "Biggest public transport project in history. Yet we can't even handle a bunch of kids running riot through the streets of the Western suburbs."
If Labor loses its because of idiots like this who blindly read the Herald Sun and somehow involve gangs in an infrastructure project.
Compare the top comment section of the Herald Sun :
https://imgur.com/a/ckWjEZS
to the Age:
https://imgur.com/a/e2rjgKM
Just ridiculous.
If they follow through with this promise the same way they did when they announced the removal of the 50 level crossings before last election, then I hope this really really becomes a thing.
This seems like it could be a cracking idea, it would definitely change the city and open up so many opportunities.
That being said, I find it a bit disturbing that this kind of enormous project can pop up seemingly overnight, it sort of shows that the long term strategic plans (e.g. the Rail Network Development plan) are not necessarily reliable. Then there are the implications from things like long term land use strategies, zoning, road network planning etc. that need a level of stability into the future to be effectively planned.
In places like Singapore and Taipei, the high-level details of basically all large scale infrastructure projects are known decades in advance - being tweaked and refined as they progress. And they are realistic and genuine plans - not necessarily election promises or visions without the intention of being undertaken. This way it can really integrate with urban planning decisions, housing and job strategies etc.
All that being said, we have a fantastic opportunity, and I can't wait to see what comes of it.
Im not sure about that. There is the long term planning for the freeway system. You can see stuff like North East Link or the Outer Metropolitan Ring Road are in the planning system for a long time ahead. This did pop up with little warning (baring it being an election year so we know things come up) I have real doubts about how much proper planning has gone into it.
The Airport Rail section is known about and has been worked on but the rest is a bit of a surprise
There's been leaked plans, projection ( tesing the waters) for years - and iirc this current plan has been kicking around in its current form since around 2014
From the Age article they have been planning this for at least 12 months and would expect planning to ramp up considerably between now and 2022 when construction is to begin.
I dont take any joy in being one of those "but why not this?" types, especially for such an amazing policy that I'm rapt to see happening, but curious as to why no link from Sandringham to Cheltenham?
Assuming it comes down to the huge cost to acquire the necessary land, but given the congestion on the roads, lack of alternative PT options and a tactical need to win the sandbelt this state election, it's a curious omission.
Might get light rail similar to Monash? Could be less of a business case for such a line? Only speculative. Hard to say without growth numbers for the area and statistics on car and public transport use in the area.
If this actually happens it will be the greatest thing ever (only some hyperbole). Reliable public transport between the suburbs has IMO always been Melbourne's biggest missing piece in PT, and this couldn't be more timely with increasing train and CBD congestion.
Absolutely. I live in Northcote and used to work in Cheltenham. I could drive to reservoir and train to Cheltenham and totally avoid Hoddle St and Nepean Hwy with this. Would do amazing things for the road network and people who actually need to drive.
Surely it would still be quicker to go into the city and out?
That depends on how many stations there are on the suburban loop. If it only stops a few times between Reservoir and Cheltenham, it might be quicker than stopping at about 30 stations along the way *and* changing trains at the mid-point.
Which is a problem in itself. Not enough stations means it takes longer to get to a station and people might end up taking some other form of transport. Too many stations slows it down and makes some other form of transport (or a train via the CBD) more attractive. Then I suppose one incentive of using the suburban loop is that it's entirely in zone 2, so a cheaper fare. But then it also introduces another problem of whether myki assumes you've gone through the CBD to charge you a zone 1+2 or assumes you've taken the loop and charge a zone 2 only. Plenty of time to figure it out though.
> Not enough stations means it takes longer to get to a station and people might end up taking some other form of transport. Given that it's planned to cross almost every other train line, I think the idea is that you would go to your nearest existing station on your nearest existing train line, and start your journey there. This suburban loop looks like it's mainly designed to give you a shortcut from one train line to another, rather than being a stopping-all-stations service throughout the outer suburbs.
Still makes me wonder why it’s so deep in the north. Broady, Fawkner, Resi is some real planning for 50 years from now. I liked the suggestion the other day that went Coburg, Preston, northland because it meets a lot of current needs. Obviously this is a bit of a different vision of the future. A very different idea of how jobs will work in the north.
Took 90 mins door to door
The absolute madman, he's actually going to try to do it. I hope they can pull it off but... fuck that's going to be expensive o_O
I will never get angry at capital expenditure as long as it’s viable and realistic. It should be seen more as investment rather than expenditure.
And some of that "expense" is money paid to every day Australians in the form of jobs. Creating jobs means spending money.
I'm pretty sure a decent percentage of the trains themselves and materials in the rail and equipment is Australian too so most of this money will just cycle back through the economy anyway.
A smart idea would be to team up with developers to build shopping centres / residential towers above the new train stations. The steady flow of PT users would ensure good business for these stores & the costs of building the stations would be off-set by having the developers chip in.
Some of the stations already have something like that, Box Hill being the stand out. It's actually fairly common in Asia, too, although I obviously don't have the context on how those ones came to be.
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But good for the economy, think about how many jobs this will create!
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One of the few professions that will always have work, you'll be fine.
If you're going to be a Keynesian, and it sounds like you want to be one, you should know this: Big fiscal stimulus is best at times of high unemployment, not at times where the unemployment rate is 5.1%. Trump made this mistake with his mega tax cut. This is not to say this is a bad project - I'm for it - but a 'boost the economy' argument is a bad reason to build it at this time.
Thing is it seems a lot of unemployment is being hidden behind unstable or poorly paying casual work, so the realistic figure is probably into the high range. And many of the areas in which this project would be being built have higher rates of unemployment anyway.
Someone told me it is one paid hours work a fortnight and you are considered 'employed'. If that is true then the figure is not 5.1% or even near it.
The weakening of unions and general deregulation is really letting employers get away with a lot. My mate's working close to 40 hour weeks on 18-year old pay whilst older employees are getting called in for split shifts and fucked around to whatever's most conver and profitable for the bussiness. This whole spiel of deregulation giving us lower unemployment might give us better paper numbers but the reality for working class people on the ground is a lack of security and rights at work.
Underemployment is actually higher than ever, especially among young people, even while employment seems to be recovering.
Isn’t it all underground?
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With land prices as they are, can you imagine the shitshow when they tried to acquire the land? [edit: spelling]
Not to mention all the NIMBYs not wanting train tracks spoiling their views / soundscape / serenity.
Bunch of crybabys in Yarraville are trying it on to get compo out of the government because the Westgate Tunnel is going to run 20 meters under their houses. They are worried that if a Supervillan wants to buy their house to build a secret lair underneath they will get less money.
It's an investment, as they said. Do it right. Everything here gets done shortsightedly
But so worth it.
"It's going to be too expensive" "It's going to take too long" Let's just do nothing then...
Yep, there's always a group of people arguing that it's not going to have a 10:1 ROI in the first 6 months so it's economical lunacy.
This is one thing that about democracy that lets us down, politicians think and acting in the short term rather than past the next term. I caught a quick grab of Daniel Andrews saying he won't be premier when this is completed. Well done to him and his team.
This line of thinking is far to common for my liking.
yep, read the top comments on the HS: https://imgur.com/a/ckWjEZS hahaha
FFS..."just an election promise". Last big election promise he made, he kept despite how unpopular that was. In fact, I think he's stuck to his guns for all his promises since the last election. Happy to stand corrected though.
Fuckwits. I wonder how many positive comments the Feral Scum admins had to delete to make it look like that...
>"It's going to be too expensive" > >"It's going to take too long" That's [literally the angle](https://imgur.com/a/P3iycHr) the Herald Sun is going with... *in the headline*.
Funny that's always the case. How are we going to pay for it? well what we currently have is more expensive and we've been paying for that.
“A society grows great when old **men plant trees** whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”
This really sums up why Australia is such a great place. Hard-working, decent ancestors of ours like my parents and grand parents.
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Out of curiosity, what suburb do you work in that deters you from being able to take the train from Frankston?
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Yep, perfectly fair enough! I couldn't imagine getting from Frankston to Clayton without a car without something like this orbital loop, what a nightmare that would be.
Train guru Daniel Bowen's blog on this: [https://www.danielbowen.com/2018/08/28/orbital-rail-proposal/](https://www.danielbowen.com/2018/08/28/orbital-rail-proposal/)
> This is Big City thinking, and should be applauded. Couldn’t agree more.
> And yes, suddenly some other Labor ideas make sense in context, such as Monash Uni/Rowville light rail instead of heavy — the heavy rail option would be Clayton to Monash instead. Yep, important point there. Seems to fall into place. Dandrews playing 4D chess, Mathew Guy playing with crayon lobsters.
Let's hope furiously scribbling the black crayon won't win him the election.
Good to see that kind of reaction/context, thanks.
This is an absolute game changer. It connects Monash Uni, Deakin Uni, Latrobe Uni, Doncaster shopping centre, a new airport rail link and down to sunshine and werribee. Honestly im ready to go full shill mode here but if the Victoria votes in the liberals at the election we deserve everything we get.
I don't think the value of this train project is in question- it's a great idea- but what is in question is how serious the government is. I don't want the government to commit to a study to examine the feasibility of the project- studies into public transport are notorious for going nowhere and frequently producing plainly incorrect results. I want this damned thing built, even if they just start on one section for now...
The election promise is $300m for planning, with the aim to get started in 2022. That's enough money, and a concrete-enough goal, that I'd say they're pretty serious about it.
From what Dandrews was saying on MMM this morning they intend to be starting the Cheltenham to Box Hill section by 2022.
Even that is pretty ambitious. Doubt that there has been any serious planning behind this as the routes are just straight lines. Projects of this scale need a lot of lead in time
From what Dandrews said, there's 12 months of planning that has gone into this before the announcement was made. Yeah it's not shovel ready but it sounds like there's a bit more to it than drawn on the back of a napkin at lunch.
Yeah it depends on which bit has had 12 months planning. Airport rail is part of this and that has been worked on for about 12 months. The rest of it I'd be pretty sketchy in how much its been planned.
I mean realistically he's picked a cracking time to drop it! Main footy season ends, which means a week of less footy in the media with the bye. The federal libs just shat themselves publicly and got rid of Victoria's favourite liberal pm for Scomo and reminded everyone of Dutton and Abbott, and the libs instability (which plagued the bailieu/napthine government too). And he's already nailed the Airport Rail link to huge applause, and finished major sections of existing infrastructure upgrades to the rail network. Daniel, well fucking played!
Well they have a track record of delivering on infrastructure projects (Melb Metro, Boom Gate removals) so I would have some faith, usually the politicians do this, but Dan Andrews has delivered so far, and therefore has some credibillity.
You don't commit to $300 million to planning for just another study.
Was at a family function on the weekend and it amazing when you talk about individual issues we're facing, everyone seemed to support what Dan Andrews is doing and would be against a Liberal government. Then ask them who they are going to vote for and they swing straight to Liberal. It staggers me how idealistic so many people are about politics and the way they vote.
It's amazing isn't it? No thought involved whatsoever.
Read a book called Tribe?
There’s nothing to say the Liberals won’t back this idea, it’s not a particularly new one. The Greens proposed a similar plan in 2010 as have the Liberals at earlier times. I just want some new rail.
> There’s nothing to say the Liberals won’t back this idea In the current political climate, we've seen political parties from everywhere on the political spectrum arguing against good ideas *just because they come from the other side*. Opposition parties everywhere seem to be becoming more obstructionist just for the sake of it. And even when the Libs agreed with Labor about an underground rail tunnel under the CBD, they both had different plans for where it should go. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the Liberal Party to back this idea.
They could back the idea, but would they be willing to fund it ahead of other projects? Probably not.
The Liberals will probably scrap it to build another highway instead.
Or they'll cut costs and insist on only one track for the trains
And then blame Labor for "making a mess of it" when the one track is inadequate for commuter demand.
And they'll build one track under the guise of cost efficiency, only for the project to blow out and cost 4 times what dual rail would.
Which will also be blamed on Labor.
The libs also opposed FTTN NBN when it was Labors idea and demanded FTTP. They called FTTN "Fraudband." They'll oppose anything Labor propose, even if it's something they've proposed themselves previously.
I wrote this in another thread but this is what the liberals will say "Liberals denounces the unnecessary spending and wasting of taxpayers money for building a rail network between suburbs and cites the expensive blowout costs of trains and how obsolete trains will be in a decade from now when people will be flying around in jetpacks. Instead, the Liberals proposes a cheaper and better alternative that will achieve the same result which they deem MULTI TRANSPORTATION MIX. This will consist of a network of taxi/uber drivers, electric scooters and/or skateboards where people can then have a choice with the added benefits of being able to deliver a more versatile transportation network quicker and most importantly, save tax payers money. Vote Liberals if you don't want to waste unnecessary money!" Mark my words and watch this space. :)
They said the same crap here in Adelaide recently and I am not joking.
Only 20+ years of experience in highway construction lol.
Sadly The spend is far enough into the future that the libs can commit to build this too without worrying about it. Neutralise the electoral advantage, move on to crime.
But muh law n order!
Love it. Could be the defining project of this city for the next 100 years. There’s no more space for roads. Time to get public transport up to scratch and leave the roads for people who actually need to drive. Bravo, Dan.
More importantly in my opinion is that by the looks of things it's xompletelt underground, so will not add any further congestion to the already bulging current system with minimal impact to homes, business's, roads and other infrastructure in the outer suburbs.
Did someone just say DONCASTER RAIL?
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Same with knox
Or extend the tram service from Vermont all the way to Knox, then connect it the proposed orbital rail between Glen Waverley and Box Hill rather than using Burwood.
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And they should stop most new road projects now in favour of PT, especially heavy rail. It costs billions to add just one freeway lane, which quickly fills to capacity. Rather than reducing congestion, it actually increases it as you have given more people the option to drive. This point has been missed in the last three decades of governments (from both sides) building and expanding roads.Meanwhile, one six-carriage train service removes hundreds of cars from the roads. It is cheaper to build, and requires less ongoing maintenance costs over the life of the project.I hope they build this, they build Metro 2, Geelong rail to Torquay and work on opening up capacity on the Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Albury and Traralgon lines.And for god's sake get a service running from Horsham to Melbourne as well.
At least the big road projects NEL/WGT provides important linkage for heavy road freight, unlike the EWL. Your standard 100t load isn't going to catch the train to where it needs to go. And then we still need some road upgrades to keep things flowing as we transition from road to PT with a significantly growing city otherwise it all freezes up. Think of it like a phased transition approach. At the moment Melbourne/Victoria is all Melbourne CBD centric, which is wasting transport capacity regardless of how many trains are going. So far we've done what we can with our current rail network, huge visionary projects are needed to change things up, and stuff like Metro 2 still really isn't much more than a band-aid. Next up, outer victorian city fast rail loop. (Please)
Yep that’s why I said most road projects, obviously some are and will be required in the future. Taking the load off the West Gate Bridge is a hugely important project, Geneva the WGT. I know less about NEL and it’s benefits but assume it would allow freight heading to or from the south eastern suburbs/regional areas to head up to the Hume, without having to go down the Monash, Burnley Tunnel or City Link. I was targeting more short term road solutions, such as widening existing freeways, ehh rarely eases peak congestion.
I understand your scepticism, I'm living in Sydney at the moment and frankly every time anyone from Government promises anything I've started to just roll my eyes. To be fair to the NSW Gov, they have got a number of transport projects off the ground and rolling, but they're a bit of a shambles. This made me excited though, it's bold and it looks well beyond just the election cycle. I think they really mean and I really hope it bears fruit.
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The problem with PTV's plan is it's mostly reactive (how can we make our current network meet future demand with some minor extensions), and it hasn't been updated since 2013. I presume that there's an internal plan that's more ambitious and that they've been keeping secret so they can announce the big things like this during the election. This is different from the PTV plan, these kinds of projects are city-shaping and would fundamentally change how we experience and get around Melbourne, they'd increase public transport use while setting off a huge round of development in the outer suburbs at these new stations and interchanges. Real cities like Singapore plan projects like this all at once (this, MM2) and then stagger the build so they're basically going from one project to the next. That said a city that's reaching Melbourne's scale could build both at essentially the same time, using the same boring machines and staff to bring down costs (Paris is a bit like this; the MM1 work is creating the capacity that will pay off if we quickly move onto a big pipeline of subway lines). If I was a betting man I'd expect money for MM2 planning before the election, and a plan to be eventually released that has all of these things together. Hopefully this is built using smaller, metro-tunnels with different rolling stock from our usual slow heavy rail. Lots of stops, fast subway trains would transform the city.
Why not both?
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brb, just going to make a bot that devotes itself to fighting chess dimensionality inflation. It works by challenging users to a game of 2d chess, which if they win they can leave their original comment online but if they lose they must just write "chess". (program requirements to keep chess 2d forever: windows 95 and 7kb ram.)
Fair points. Anyone got a lot of experience in this area that can give some solid numbers?
Ild be surprised if metro 2 isnt still part of the plan; it simply cant happen until after metro 1 though so is probably a next election announcement
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They’re apparently saying a 2022 start for construction, which is the same year they’ll start airport rail — so that means starting before MM1 finishes, which would mean rolling boring machines, construction over. Which is great as it’s save money and get it all going quickly etc. Question is where does MM2 fit into that timeline?
it doesn't? or after airport rail link is finished in 2026 or so. So we just hold on to the boring machines for like 15 yrs
I’m shocked that they haven’t committed to Metro 2 tbh. It’s the logical next step.
Probably can’t commit till after the next election or Matthew Guy would attack them for it.
Interesting to look at the photos. The Airport-Sunshine section is airport rail so we sort of know how that bit works. The Sunshine to Werribee section is a bit far fetched I would have thought. I'm guessing that section is pretty unknown
Maybe use or duplicate the regional rail link lines that go into sunshine that side?
Hopefully it links Werribee train station to the Regional Rail Link station in Wyndham Vale, before continuing on to Sunshine.
Agreed. This would be 15-20 years from now at best. The current civil works will be consuming a large bunch of available resources for quite a while.
I don't know how I plan to go to work after reading this, I am going to struggle to not get an erecton every time I think about this absolute gem of a project.
Just think about Guy winning, that'll kill off any boners you'll get for sure
Holy shit I can finally get to uni without getting up at 6
Well... If you're still at uni in 10+ years, sure. (Though probably a few decades later than that in reality) Still, fantastic for the future of Melbourne even if we won't reap the benefits of it for a long, long time.
I'll reenrol just to ride
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Provided you've finished paying off your loans.
Having just moved back from London and having spent a lot of time whinging about Melbourne’s PT, this would be amazing. However, I’ll wait for a few more details before getting too excited 🤞
How bad is our rail compared to the tube? 😭
Melbourne's is quite rudimentary compared to the complex network of trains in London. They come often and they cover most areas. Brits love to whinge about their public transport system but they have no idea how good they have it compared to other first-world cities.
Yeah but a lot of the tube was built using cut and cover in the 19th century. Same with NYC. No way you could get away with that nowadays.
This is exactly what we need, works so well in other countries and may actually result in a decentralised cbd.
I've lived in countries with decentralized central business districts with much much higher populations and it's pure bliss compared to the state of our city and infrastructure, really hoping this doesn't get shut down.
If only politicians had this vision in the 80's & started building it then. our city would be running so much smoother as a result.
To be fair. I just don't think they could have expected such constantly large suburban and urban growth.
Yeh, did we hit 5 million yesterday? it seems like just yesterday that we were @ 3.5 million.. & it's starting to show.
Haven't seen an article confirming it but haven't checked tbf. Tbh, I've been feeling it in the west since 3. I shudder to imagine how much worse it can get without appropriate planning with growth still in the double digits.
I’d like to see more details and commitment tbh, because we’ve been getting ‘concept rail investment’ and election promises for 50 years for airport rail, and still nadda. Also looks like they’re not going to support Metro 2 :(
I've never seen a project concept like this from a major party though. This is extraordinarily ambitious, and will be popular. It's the type of thing that would change Melbourne and I hope they're committed to it.
I’ve lived through at least 6 election promises for airport rail. And we still haven’t put a shovel in the ground. I’m hopeful, but I’m just saying to temper your expectations.
Totally agree. The Age is saying 2022 start, so starting before MM1 construction ends... super ambitious, let's see!
Dan Andrews is pretty good at committing to promises, that’s why I like him. I honestly think he’d be a brilliant future PM based on all of the changes he has done to Melbourne. I like that he gets shit done.
This isn’t an election promise though, from what I can tell it’s a concept video from the transport ministry.
Complete lack of info suggests to me this is purely from his own office. I doubt Transport for Victoria has had much input
Pretty sure I read in an article this morning that more info is being released at 10am, stay tuned?
I'm pretty confident you're right, there.
You do realise the state election is three months away...
But will there be a station to VFL Park?
So we've already had the Inner Circle railway line and the Outer Circle railway line... is this the medium or complete circle line? (despite it being further out than the outercircle line) Edit: route map - https://i.imgur.com/5lmnlI0.jpg Possibly our first actual metro line if it is segregated from the rest of the network. And forward thinking longterm vision from a government, how good is that? No doubt a multi-stage project which would take a decade and a bit to complete. I'm sure the next federal labor government will throw a few billion at it too.
Amazing. Currently taking a train line in the east and having to get to another station in the south east, both the bus and taking a train back to near the city and switching to the other train usually takes the same amount of time.. I know that's the reason a lot of people I know just stick to driving instead because even heading from the east to the north, they have to head into the city first before heading north - doubles/triples their commute time.
Lobster Guy comes out with the criticism of "This is a project for the next generation.". He thinks that's a criticism.... Gives you an idea of his priorities and vision.
The more train lines/connections/underground the better. We need more super forward infrastructure planning, it feels like we've really lagged behind in this regard.
Transport in Vic, and solar power grids in SA. VS Shitfights in Canberra.
Paris is doing this right as we speak (look up the Grand Paris Express) and it's an absolutely fantastic project to improve inter-suburban connectivity and enable significant upcoming for more housing and office space outside of the core.
An actual policy that is longer than an election term? My word /u/DanielAndrewsMP
If everyone understood the implications of this project Daniel Andrews would still be in office when it was completed.
So when the LNP gets in power they will just scrap the idea and replace it with busses? Just going by their history with the NBN.
Old diesel buses without particulate filters probably....
(Clean) coal-rolling
We’d be lucky if they give us a horse and kart
You mean like the Melbourne metro Or the freeway project Both longer than an election term
My comment was in praise, not sarcasm. It's tough on Reddit to tell the difference, I know.
Ah I think it's because you sound surprised in your original comment, and it is surprising for politics in general, but not for dandrews
I'll say the d word. Decentralisation.
Holy cow!!
I hope no one really expects this to be completed within the next 20 years. I’d be stoked to be proven wrong but this announcement doesn’t strike me as a pledge he can deliver, more of a ‘let’s add this into our party’s policy agenda’, which, while better than more roads policy, still holds nothing concrete and its timing so close to an election just seems like a ploy to say something no ones gonna object too. But that’s probably just my cynicism for Australian politics showing.
One of the sections could be done within 20 years, I reckon. The rest over the next 40 years. It's a big fucking project.
Airport to sunshine is happening anyway as part of airport rail, so stage 1 is effectivly funded and will be complete within a decade.
> I hope no one really expects this to be completed within the next 20 years. No one does. Even the announcement says construction will go from 2022 to 2050 - which is more than 30 years away.
I totally think it's doable within 20 years, we're building an infrastructure for these sorts of projects with the first metro tunnel, which is the first project of its type in forty years. If they build that capacity further they could roll construction straight from MM1 to this and MM2, have a real, steady pipeline of rail construction like Singapore and elsewhere.
Big Ears has sealed a vote from me
As great of an idea as this is, it's crowd pleasing enough to make me sceptical. The age now has the story, apparently more documents are being released at 10am with an official media address.
Guy whatshisname counters with "we're going to send anybody breaking the speed limit to prison"
Finally! Frickin awesome. Matthew Guy can go suck a fart now.
Good stuff, but could you re-open the train line from Koo Wee Rup as well?
Thag happens with the third airport at monomeith, land is being reserved and construction between 2030 and 2040. Rail will open before then though more than likely once clyde rail is built.
I'm having 2007 NBN Labor proposal PTSD hearing this. This is the kind of project Libs will turn around and undermine thus costing us BILLIONS. Fucking hell Dan, this is so necessary yet extremely risky. I'm skeptical, yet trusting because this guy has delivered on most promises time and time again.
The network certainly needs some more "random" routes. Currently its basically a spoke system. It needs some circular routes desperately
Well that's ambitious.
Cant wait for Guy to fuck it up
"Where's the link to my donor's investments in Fishermans Bend?"
I did market research for the Andrews Government last year. He's concerned about the network getting scrapped if the labor loses power. He's also extremely realistic about the cost and the time that it will take. He knows he will not get any kudos for this in the long run. The other participants were the worst. "But what if we spend all that money and the technology changes". I kept calmly explaining that technology can be upgraded as long as the infrastructure is there and our city is failing under the population pressure already. If we wait another 10 years we're fucked. They didn't get it. They kept talking about technology as if it was a point in time where all our problems would be resolved and we would realise the stupidity of past investments.
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They didn't specify. It was single mums vs. the single uni student. One of them said "technology" and mob mentality ensued. They weren't sure of much except that it had to be a waste of tax payers money to start it now.
YES YES YES DO IT
I wish it didn't come down to an election to get this sort of project happening. I wish both parties could just see a good idea and agree on it for once so we don't have to choose between a douche and a shit sandwich to get some actual progress
Holy Shit! Burwood won't be shit anymore! (okay maybe only a little bit but still)
Watch this get shouted down as it would be too costly and then watch it be resurrected again, and watch this cycle continue for the next 50 years...
holy shit the madman did it! this will be amazing if completed
The 2nd top comment on the HS: "Biggest public transport project in history. Yet we can't even handle a bunch of kids running riot through the streets of the Western suburbs." If Labor loses its because of idiots like this who blindly read the Herald Sun and somehow involve gangs in an infrastructure project. Compare the top comment section of the Herald Sun : https://imgur.com/a/ckWjEZS to the Age: https://imgur.com/a/e2rjgKM Just ridiculous.
Finally a Doncaster rail link
This is absolutely incredible!! What a vision for the city. Daniel Andrews getting it done...again!
God I wish Paul Mees was still with us so I could ask him a million questions!
If they follow through with this promise the same way they did when they announced the removal of the 50 level crossings before last election, then I hope this really really becomes a thing.
This would be incredible and is sorely needed. About time we saw real developments instead of finger pointing.
This seems like it could be a cracking idea, it would definitely change the city and open up so many opportunities. That being said, I find it a bit disturbing that this kind of enormous project can pop up seemingly overnight, it sort of shows that the long term strategic plans (e.g. the Rail Network Development plan) are not necessarily reliable. Then there are the implications from things like long term land use strategies, zoning, road network planning etc. that need a level of stability into the future to be effectively planned. In places like Singapore and Taipei, the high-level details of basically all large scale infrastructure projects are known decades in advance - being tweaked and refined as they progress. And they are realistic and genuine plans - not necessarily election promises or visions without the intention of being undertaken. This way it can really integrate with urban planning decisions, housing and job strategies etc. All that being said, we have a fantastic opportunity, and I can't wait to see what comes of it.
It's not popping up overnight - you're just hearing about it now. Planning has been going on for years, same as the other works.
Im not sure about that. There is the long term planning for the freeway system. You can see stuff like North East Link or the Outer Metropolitan Ring Road are in the planning system for a long time ahead. This did pop up with little warning (baring it being an election year so we know things come up) I have real doubts about how much proper planning has gone into it. The Airport Rail section is known about and has been worked on but the rest is a bit of a surprise
There's been leaked plans, projection ( tesing the waters) for years - and iirc this current plan has been kicking around in its current form since around 2014
From the Age article they have been planning this for at least 12 months and would expect planning to ramp up considerably between now and 2022 when construction is to begin.
I dont take any joy in being one of those "but why not this?" types, especially for such an amazing policy that I'm rapt to see happening, but curious as to why no link from Sandringham to Cheltenham? Assuming it comes down to the huge cost to acquire the necessary land, but given the congestion on the roads, lack of alternative PT options and a tactical need to win the sandbelt this state election, it's a curious omission.
Might get light rail similar to Monash? Could be less of a business case for such a line? Only speculative. Hard to say without growth numbers for the area and statistics on car and public transport use in the area.
Then Guy comes along with his “Multi Transport Mix”. Faster, cheaper, less expensive
Build the stations and then just run some copper wire between them instead of tracks
I do like the idea of creating better links between the train lines.