thing that'll make people salty is that it's 2 mana, so it can fit under Lurrus.
but other than that it seems pretty fair and non-basics are just getting better and better.
what could be interesting though is combining this with \[\[Rootpath Purifier\]\] to make this effect one sided, but then we run into the problem Rootpath Purifier always runs into: how much are you running to make it viable that isn't gonna function when it's not there
Given that rootpath purifier only sees play in commander, I assumed that's what they were talking about. The way youd play this in a deck with non basics would be a board stall tactic. You get to choose whether to tap your nonbasic mana before playing this, meaning you dictate your own tempo, and with Rootpath out, you negate the downside for you anyway.
It would depend on the deck, but Im not saying Id run this in 3-5 colors, but 1-2 is feasible if you're not greedy with your mana base, though many many players are because thats what theyve been told.
I wouldn't mind this as a murktide player, I'll probably play it in the sideboard myself.
You can still fetch basics, and I dont often need more than 1 red mana a turn.
Hum... If you really wanna optimize your manabase, you can run out of basics in a 2-color deck. Not even talking about 3c and more.
This is meant to be a problem and keep greedy manabases in check given how good non-basics have become.
This for me is going in mono decks for me and I'll consider it for some 2c decks as well if I run a low amount of non basics. I'm currently building a budget deck that may end up being basics, command tower and residuary tower as my only 2 non basic so it'd slot in there easy enough
Disagree - play more basics. I occasionally play [[ruination]] so people aren’t so greedy.
I have won quite a few games with [[primal order]] dealing a ton of damage.
Your 5c deck is playing with fire unless it is built around a single color heavily. 5c decks should be 0-3 basics max. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA) ex, this deck cannot play any basics.
Edit: My first and only experience playing blood moon in edh was when I accidentally locked an Ivy player out of playing the game for 10+ turns. They were on 10+ basics in the deck, just never managed to draw a Forest. It was the last time I had fun with the RNG prison shit.
In commander, this card will probably cause some groans for most tables. In competitive constructed 1v1, "salt" is irrelevant since the entire point is to win the game.
Salt should always be irrelevant. And for the 4/5c decks that it will mostly effect, they should be running interaction to get rid of it.
But we know people get salty over smaller things
If Salt is irrelevant then why are you asking for the salt score? Regardless of whether you like it or not, there is an inherent social contract to playing commander, which is a casual multiplayer format intended for fun. Including cards like this, depending on your playgroup, may affect your or other player's experiences at the table.
Idk man there's plenty of fun to be had in cedh, just don't play top tier decks lol, I have a plenty fun emry deck that can go toe to toe with most cedh stuff
The interaction they may not be able to cast since they have to untap.
Or always have it in hand, if they burn a removal spell then you drop this... Oh well!
I am unsure if this is good enough for cEDH. Winter Orb already doesn't make the cut often enough and this is no where near as good as Winter Orb. I think the only opportunity for this is high power pillow fort.
agree. it'll hose the player just as much as anyone else (either having lots of non basics as well and/or limiting themself to one colour)
and so much mana isn't from lands anyway. sure that's true for other formats too, but very few on the level of cEDH
I think this card 100% makes the cut in cEDH. The [[tainted pact]] [[thassa's oracle]] is probably one of the most common ways to win games. This means those decks are only running 1 of the basic lands, (Maybe also the snow land) and will probably be crippling if you see it hit the battlefield.
Stax just isn't good in cEDH. There's a saying that stax wins games, just not for the stax player. You'll almost never see a dedicated stax deck in a tournament or your average pod.
I have seen tainted pact dropped from nearly every list, and they're relying solely on [[demonic consultation]]
Not to mention the decks doing the most thoracle are rock and dork driven mana, not lands. You might shut down 1 or 2 lands with Winter Moon. It's not good.
If I have 1 dork, 2 rocks, and 3 lands and you play Winter Moon and pass, that still leaves me with MOST of my mana in cedh. Assuming even ALL of my lands are non basic, I get to untap one or more. You've locked 2 of my lands and I still have rocks and dorks, which is what most of cedh is. It's just not relevant.
This card is pretty sweet. Although you can't essentially lock your opponent with only this, it's a very decent lock piece against a wide variety of decks for 2 mana.
Some mono color and colorless decks will want this main deck and all the others will include this as sideboard in a blink, given how bad this hoses 4 and 5C decks while still relevant against 2 or 3 colors decks. I think that the deck that will get the most out of it as a piece (but not the most successful running it perhaps) is mono white hate bears where you can "stack" this with increase cost effects like [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]], tax effects like [[Esper Sentinel]] and "fetch hate" like [[Leonin Arbiter]] and [[Aven Mindcensor]].
I’m not sure in Modern, that’s always been too rich for my blood, but it’ll definitely give people one more reason to focus me in my Heliod Stax deck, as they should, so I’m a huge fan in terms of EDH.
The entire community: card seems fine and fair.
Two months later after it locks them out of a game: card is bullshit I shouldn't have to build my whole deck around 1 card!!
I deserve to play a game that isn't fun? Guess what? That isn't going to happen.
I don't think this is going to be welcome at most casual tables. In high power and competitive games, it's fine.
It used to be that playing more colors, was a tradeoff. You got more power, but a harder manabase. Risk vs reward. Now it's so easy, there very few drawbacks to just pick the best cards in every color, mash 'em together and call it a deck.
Originally, monocolor was also a drawback, because there were color hosing cards. But since that was a pile of no fun, they stopped making cards like that.
In a competitive environment, relying on non-basic lands represents a weakness you can exploit to win. Do that.
In casual, some guy is just trying to get their four color frog reanimation theme deck to make undead frogs or something. You can stop them from winning without making it so they can't play the game.
I see 4-5c goodstuff a lot more often than I see silly frogs and unicorns.
Anyways, it's one card, so shouldn't be much of a problem to deal with for a deck with access to 80-100% of the cardpool. Enough people will get anoyed at the card in a pod, that'll it get removed fast enough, even if you can't deal with it yourself
I have a 5 color [[Jodah, Archmage Eternal]] deck that would not like this artifact. All my lands are duel colored, not a single basic in there. [[Chromatic Lantern]] won’t save me here.
I very much disagree.
In 3-c, you can have 6 fetches, add maybe 2 triome, 3 shocks, 3 battlebonds, 3 slowlands, 3 surveil lands.
Easily half your manabase gone already.
Then let's say command tower, city of brass, mana confluence, exotic orchard.
Then 3 channel lands.
Then 2 or 3 mdfc.
Then ancient tomb, urza's saga.
After that you can add more fixing with yavimaya, urborg, bouncelands, filter lands, signet lands, pathways...
Or more utility: strip mine, maze of ith, field of the dead, phyrexian tower, high market, rogue's passage, shizo, access tunnel...
And the list goes on.
Obviously all of those are not a requirement for a functional manabase, budget will often matter too.
But if you want to optimise and non-basic hate isn't a concern then there isn't much room to include basics. In 3c? 0 to 5 I'd say. That's only 10% of your lands.
I’d have loved to see a cycle of cards with this effect. Want to drastically change the modern meta game, a route to shutting down fast mana would be very interesting.
this effect and [[blood moon]] are pretty healthy for the game imo and punish greedy deckbuilding/help level the playing field for a lot of mono color and budget decks.
my 5c EDH deck is fairly budget and runs 2x of each basic and 3x forests/mountains, and the mana base is still very functional even with the ~10 basics that i have. if you're running a 5c goodstuff pile with 0 basics that's a little bit on you for being greedy.
Will cause some saltiness at the table, though not as much as [[Winter Orb]]
Now if you have out Winter Moon, Winter Orb and [[Orb of Dreams]] you've opened a salt mine 😏
Actually i might hate it if i play against it but i really do like the mechanic of the card and afterall i wouldn't really be bothered just pissed during the game but looking like a great card
honestly, I like this, im so tired of 5 color goodstuff in modern, or splashing 4 colors for layline binding, this will also encourage more mono/duel color decks to play basics. feel like basics in modern rn are at an all time low
What annoying is it doesn't stop leyline of the guildpact decks which are the 5 color boogieman st the moment but hey it's cool I guess. Helps fight tron and such.
I really despise [[blood moon]] and [[back to basics]] as well as [[winter orb]] and [[static orb]] but they keep printing more shit wtf is this wizards 😡
Gee if I had a nickel for every time someone said that to me lol my 4 color and under decks do have a fair amount of basics and I’ve upped the amount in recent months, but main issue I have a large number of 5 color decks.
You can counter ppl’s strats, that’s part of the game sure. But you know what the main component of this entire game is? MANA. If we don’t have that, what are we even doing here?
thing that'll make people salty is that it's 2 mana, so it can fit under Lurrus. but other than that it seems pretty fair and non-basics are just getting better and better. what could be interesting though is combining this with \[\[Rootpath Purifier\]\] to make this effect one sided, but then we run into the problem Rootpath Purifier always runs into: how much are you running to make it viable that isn't gonna function when it's not there
[Rootpath Purifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9249743-d49e-4450-8fa6-52ed0ff6e5bb.jpg?1680145851) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rootpath%20Purifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/24/rootpath-purifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9249743-d49e-4450-8fa6-52ed0ff6e5bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>thing that'll make people salty is that it's 2 mana, so it can fit under Lurrus. \[\[Haywire Mite\]\] doesn't care about Lurrus, though.
My gates tribal commander deck is crying in horror but that’s why I run interaction
I would just run a normal mana base with it, maybe 2-3 extra nonbasics and call it a day.
Why would you run extra non-basic lands with a card that limits your ability to untap said non-basic lands?
Given that rootpath purifier only sees play in commander, I assumed that's what they were talking about. The way youd play this in a deck with non basics would be a board stall tactic. You get to choose whether to tap your nonbasic mana before playing this, meaning you dictate your own tempo, and with Rootpath out, you negate the downside for you anyway. It would depend on the deck, but Im not saying Id run this in 3-5 colors, but 1-2 is feasible if you're not greedy with your mana base, though many many players are because thats what theyve been told.
Technically the first non basic is free
A friendlier [[Winter Orb]] Not that much of a problem except someone would play 4 or 5 colours
I think it's far more of a problem than you might think. Rakdos scam, mono g Tron, Murktide or yawgmoth play 3 basics. Titan plays 2.
Titan barely about this, that deck generates all its mana from twiddling bounce lands anyways
I wouldn't mind this as a murktide player, I'll probably play it in the sideboard myself. You can still fetch basics, and I dont often need more than 1 red mana a turn.
Hum... If you really wanna optimize your manabase, you can run out of basics in a 2-color deck. Not even talking about 3c and more. This is meant to be a problem and keep greedy manabases in check given how good non-basics have become.
I love some non-basic hate. This is great in my mono-blue deck.
I'm a mono green Timmy and this will be fun too add in
I'm poor, so I love decks that make rich opponents poor too.
This for me is going in mono decks for me and I'll consider it for some 2c decks as well if I run a low amount of non basics. I'm currently building a budget deck that may end up being basics, command tower and residuary tower as my only 2 non basic so it'd slot in there easy enough
Mono black discard also approves
-happily squeaks in [[relentless rats]]-
Non basic hate is extremely lame to play against in edh
Disagree - play more basics. I occasionally play [[ruination]] so people aren’t so greedy. I have won quite a few games with [[primal order]] dealing a ton of damage.
You’ve never seen a Blood moon lock out a two color player on 12 basics, I can tell.
Good idea, blood moon in my g/r deck. Hurts the fetch lands but it plays like 28 basics so should be fine. My 5c deck has 12 basics.
Your 5c deck is playing with fire unless it is built around a single color heavily. 5c decks should be 0-3 basics max. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA) ex, this deck cannot play any basics. Edit: My first and only experience playing blood moon in edh was when I accidentally locked an Ivy player out of playing the game for 10+ turns. They were on 10+ basics in the deck, just never managed to draw a Forest. It was the last time I had fun with the RNG prison shit.
People I play with deal with Bloodmoon pretty fast.
In commander, this card will probably cause some groans for most tables. In competitive constructed 1v1, "salt" is irrelevant since the entire point is to win the game.
Salt should always be irrelevant. And for the 4/5c decks that it will mostly effect, they should be running interaction to get rid of it. But we know people get salty over smaller things
If Salt is irrelevant then why are you asking for the salt score? Regardless of whether you like it or not, there is an inherent social contract to playing commander, which is a casual multiplayer format intended for fun. Including cards like this, depending on your playgroup, may affect your or other player's experiences at the table.
>should But salt will always happen in any playgroup.
[удалено]
Idk man there's plenty of fun to be had in cedh, just don't play top tier decks lol, I have a plenty fun emry deck that can go toe to toe with most cedh stuff
The interaction they may not be able to cast since they have to untap. Or always have it in hand, if they burn a removal spell then you drop this... Oh well!
Stop them for a turn or two at the very least
Casual edh players don't run hard stax so I don't think this is gonna be a problem at all. It's made for 60-card and cEDH.
I am unsure if this is good enough for cEDH. Winter Orb already doesn't make the cut often enough and this is no where near as good as Winter Orb. I think the only opportunity for this is high power pillow fort.
agree. it'll hose the player just as much as anyone else (either having lots of non basics as well and/or limiting themself to one colour) and so much mana isn't from lands anyway. sure that's true for other formats too, but very few on the level of cEDH
I think this card 100% makes the cut in cEDH. The [[tainted pact]] [[thassa's oracle]] is probably one of the most common ways to win games. This means those decks are only running 1 of the basic lands, (Maybe also the snow land) and will probably be crippling if you see it hit the battlefield.
Stax just isn't good in cEDH. There's a saying that stax wins games, just not for the stax player. You'll almost never see a dedicated stax deck in a tournament or your average pod.
I have seen tainted pact dropped from nearly every list, and they're relying solely on [[demonic consultation]] Not to mention the decks doing the most thoracle are rock and dork driven mana, not lands. You might shut down 1 or 2 lands with Winter Moon. It's not good.
Cedh players are the greediest mana bases in the game. It'll make an impact
If I have 1 dork, 2 rocks, and 3 lands and you play Winter Moon and pass, that still leaves me with MOST of my mana in cedh. Assuming even ALL of my lands are non basic, I get to untap one or more. You've locked 2 of my lands and I still have rocks and dorks, which is what most of cedh is. It's just not relevant.
Dorks and rocks are the easiest things to kill...?
This is how i know you don't play cedh lol
Dawgs I play Rog Tevesh. This is how I know you don't win in CEDH
Agreed. I assume the social contract will keep this off the table of most casual EDH groups. Artifact removal is easy enough to come by for cEDH
This card is pretty sweet. Although you can't essentially lock your opponent with only this, it's a very decent lock piece against a wide variety of decks for 2 mana. Some mono color and colorless decks will want this main deck and all the others will include this as sideboard in a blink, given how bad this hoses 4 and 5C decks while still relevant against 2 or 3 colors decks. I think that the deck that will get the most out of it as a piece (but not the most successful running it perhaps) is mono white hate bears where you can "stack" this with increase cost effects like [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]], tax effects like [[Esper Sentinel]] and "fetch hate" like [[Leonin Arbiter]] and [[Aven Mindcensor]].
##### ###### #### [Thalia, Guardian of Thraben](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479.jpg?1643587106) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20Guardian%20of%20Thraben) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/38/thalia-guardian-of-thraben?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Esper Sentinel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349.jpg?1626093502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esper%20Sentinel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/12/esper-sentinel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leonin Arbiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d0f827b-ebc3-45a4-8d12-c71a14478038.jpg?1673147016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leonin%20Arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/16/leonin-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d0f827b-ebc3-45a4-8d12-c71a14478038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aven Mindcensor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d4cf468f-4e9d-4551-a0ed-10bd6a2316ad.jpg?1674141050) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aven%20Mindcensor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/688/aven-mindcensor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4cf468f-4e9d-4551-a0ed-10bd6a2316ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2359a7) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m not sure in Modern, that’s always been too rich for my blood, but it’ll definitely give people one more reason to focus me in my Heliod Stax deck, as they should, so I’m a huge fan in terms of EDH.
Hot take but if you don’t have enough basic lands in your deck to not lose on turn 2 that’s not your opponents fault.
The entire community: card seems fine and fair. Two months later after it locks them out of a game: card is bullshit I shouldn't have to build my whole deck around 1 card!!
Ah running basic interaction, edh players greatest enemy
TRUE
I love mono decks so I'm embracing it. One nonbasic untap for turn for Nykthos.
Yeah this is going straight into my mono black combo deck, the only nonbasic I'll ever need to untap are cabal coffers and cabal stronghold anyways
Totaly fair. If you gonna play a 5c goodpile, you deserve this
I deserve to play a game that isn't fun? Guess what? That isn't going to happen. I don't think this is going to be welcome at most casual tables. In high power and competitive games, it's fine.
It used to be that playing more colors, was a tradeoff. You got more power, but a harder manabase. Risk vs reward. Now it's so easy, there very few drawbacks to just pick the best cards in every color, mash 'em together and call it a deck.
Originally, monocolor was also a drawback, because there were color hosing cards. But since that was a pile of no fun, they stopped making cards like that. In a competitive environment, relying on non-basic lands represents a weakness you can exploit to win. Do that. In casual, some guy is just trying to get their four color frog reanimation theme deck to make undead frogs or something. You can stop them from winning without making it so they can't play the game.
I see 4-5c goodstuff a lot more often than I see silly frogs and unicorns. Anyways, it's one card, so shouldn't be much of a problem to deal with for a deck with access to 80-100% of the cardpool. Enough people will get anoyed at the card in a pod, that'll it get removed fast enough, even if you can't deal with it yourself
I have a 5 color [[Jodah, Archmage Eternal]] deck that would not like this artifact. All my lands are duel colored, not a single basic in there. [[Chromatic Lantern]] won’t save me here.
This will be a side board price for me against the higher end casual decks... Funny enough, one of those being a Jodah deck in our play group
Monocolor decks are HAPPY
Worse than the original, which is a great card, so salt should be pretty low.
Worse than Winter Orb doesn't mean much, given Winter Orb is already the #1 saltiest card on edhrec.
I feel like the parody breaking for this is a lot fairer tbh, this only really punishes 4 and 5 color good stuff piles
I very much disagree. In 3-c, you can have 6 fetches, add maybe 2 triome, 3 shocks, 3 battlebonds, 3 slowlands, 3 surveil lands. Easily half your manabase gone already. Then let's say command tower, city of brass, mana confluence, exotic orchard. Then 3 channel lands. Then 2 or 3 mdfc. Then ancient tomb, urza's saga. After that you can add more fixing with yavimaya, urborg, bouncelands, filter lands, signet lands, pathways... Or more utility: strip mine, maze of ith, field of the dead, phyrexian tower, high market, rogue's passage, shizo, access tunnel... And the list goes on. Obviously all of those are not a requirement for a functional manabase, budget will often matter too. But if you want to optimise and non-basic hate isn't a concern then there isn't much room to include basics. In 3c? 0 to 5 I'd say. That's only 10% of your lands.
I have 1 of each basic in my Sliver deck, and people told me that's dumb.
I’d have loved to see a cycle of cards with this effect. Want to drastically change the modern meta game, a route to shutting down fast mana would be very interesting.
I can't wait to drop one next to a \[\[Blood Moon\]\]. If you don't want a pile of lazy nonbasic Mountains, run some basics. :D
this effect and [[blood moon]] are pretty healthy for the game imo and punish greedy deckbuilding/help level the playing field for a lot of mono color and budget decks. my 5c EDH deck is fairly budget and runs 2x of each basic and 3x forests/mountains, and the mana base is still very functional even with the ~10 basics that i have. if you're running a 5c goodstuff pile with 0 basics that's a little bit on you for being greedy.
laughs in urza
10/10 fuck this shit
I love it, great include for any mono deck, maybe low power two colors as well.
The only problem with it is it can go in every deck. Would have preferred if it was CC or 1C instead
Not as salty as winter orb
Will cause some saltiness at the table, though not as much as [[Winter Orb]] Now if you have out Winter Moon, Winter Orb and [[Orb of Dreams]] you've opened a salt mine 😏
Actually i might hate it if i play against it but i really do like the mechanic of the card and afterall i wouldn't really be bothered just pissed during the game but looking like a great card
Depending on when that comes out I'll probably just conceed with some decks, other times it'll be fine.
It’s slightly annoying, but it’s fine
I just run Islands anyways
I love salt moon. I mean winter moon.
Jokes on you, I'm into that shit.
I'll be adding this card in every monocolor commander deck I build.
honestly, I like this, im so tired of 5 color goodstuff in modern, or splashing 4 colors for layline binding, this will also encourage more mono/duel color decks to play basics. feel like basics in modern rn are at an all time low
Oh hell yes!
Either way it’s going into my Urza cedh deck
I think it’s very fair, greedy landbases haven’t been punished enough
What annoying is it doesn't stop leyline of the guildpact decks which are the 5 color boogieman st the moment but hey it's cool I guess. Helps fight tron and such.
I find it’s better to just use treasures anyhow
That art is amazing 😍😍
Not as bad as the new eldrazi they keep showing but still pretty salty
I love this card. Love punishing greedy manabases and incentivizes playing more basics
Ehh, it’s just a worse winter orb…. Probably won’t even run it.
I really despise [[blood moon]] and [[back to basics]] as well as [[winter orb]] and [[static orb]] but they keep printing more shit wtf is this wizards 😡
Run more basics if you're getting shut down by blood moon and btb
Gee if I had a nickel for every time someone said that to me lol my 4 color and under decks do have a fair amount of basics and I’ve upped the amount in recent months, but main issue I have a large number of 5 color decks.
Well yes, nonbasic hate is meant to discourage high color decks, that's mainly who it effects
You can counter ppl’s strats, that’s part of the game sure. But you know what the main component of this entire game is? MANA. If we don’t have that, what are we even doing here?
> What are we even doing here? Probably losing to the deck with the less greedy mana base.
Guy just gets mad that throwing more money won't win more games
Well if you had a basic land for every time someone said that to you then you wouldn't have an issue.