>Kobe was having a difficult time staying in the triangle and would frequently go rogue, which annoyed his teammates. Many of them told me they didn’t like playing with Kobe because he didn’t respect the system. I’d been through this before with Michael, but Kobe, who had recently turned twenty-one, wasn’t as mature and open-minded as Jordan.
>Kobe was also a stubborn, hardheaded learner. He was so confident in his ability that you couldn’t simply point out his mistakes and expect him to alter his behavior. He would have to experience failure directly before his resistance would start to break down. It was often an excruciating process for him and everyone else involved.
>One of those moments happened in early February. That’s when the team was struck by a puzzling malaise. After a less-than-stellar performance, I closed the locker room to all but the players and asked what had happened to cause them to suddenly stop playing together. Kobe was in the last row with his hoodie pulled over his head. I reviewed the demands that the triangle offense placed on each team member, then concluded: “You can’t be a selfish player and make this offense work for the team’s good. Period.” When I opened the floor to comments, there was complete silence, and I was about to adjourn the meeting when Shaq spoke up. He got right to the point, saying, “I think Kobe is playing too selfishly for us to win.” That got everyone fired up. Some of the players nodded in support of Shaq, including Rick Fox, who said, “How many times have we been through this?” No one in that room came to Kobe’s defense.
> The Blazers were killing us with high screen-rolls because Shaq was averse to coming out of his comfort zone and getting caught chasing after players such as Stoudamire or Smith. During moments like this, Shaq was in danger of falling into a downward spiral of self-defeat, which had crippled him during big games in the past. The perfect example of putting a head on top of a head. So I told him, in no uncertain terms, that this was his moment. He needed to move out of the lane and start breaking down the screen-rolls no matter what. He nodded in agreement.
>Then, with less than a minute left and the Lakers up by four, Kobe drove toward the basket and surprised everyone by lofting a beautiful pass to Shaq two feet above the rim, which he grabbed and dunked. It was a gratifying moment to see these two men come together for a perfectly coordinated play that put the game out of reach.
I’ll never forget it . I was a kid but I remember vividly, we were watching the game at Johns Incredible Pizza . The place went CRAZY . Definitely one of the happiest moments of my life .
Maybe it's the specific defense they were playing, but there was no reason for Pip to be that close to Kobe when Kobe is that far from the basket. There's a reason Kobe cooked Pippen so easily on that play.
The funny thing is Pippen did the same thing to Charles Barkley in the finals.
Look up that finals-winning John Paxson shot. The only reason he was open was Pip flew past Barkley because Barkley was guarding Pip up close beyond the top of the key, so the Suns had to rotate to Pippen (even though the culprit on paper might be Danny Aingle because he rotated away from Paxson, when supposedly they said to never leave the 3-point shooter open, but trust me athlete muscle memory is hard to break) which caused Paxson to be open.
Just a kid sitting in front of the box set tv and when that lob pass then dunk happened I felt I was in the game. You could feel the magic of the lakers
Good quote where's that from or am I so stoned I just read it and forgot it? 😋
All the team knew the issue but noone had the standing to call Kobe out even with a closed meeting. Shaq was the only who could say something and have it mean anything.
Phil Jackson's book Eleven Rings. Here's more:
>Grandstanding in the press didn’t trouble me as much as when Shaq lashed out in person at one of his teammates. That happened in a game against the San Antonio Spurs during the 2003 playoffs. Shaq was furious because Devean George had made a mistake at the end of the game that allowed Malik Rose to pick off an offensive rebound and put up the game-winning shot. Shaq started to go after Devean in the locker room after the game, but Brian Shaw made him stop.
>He called out to him, “If you’d used that much energy blocking out under the boards, you would have gotten yourself a rebound and we probably would have won the game. So instead of taking it out on Devean, why don’t you take responsibility for where you came up short?” At that point, Shaq let Devean go and went after Brian, who tried to tackle him but ended up getting dragged around the locker room by Shaq until his knees were bleeding and the other players pulled him off.
>From the moment of Kobe’s arrest, I had a lot of practice working with my anger that year, and Kobe was my main teacher. In late January he showed up at the training facility with a bandaged hand and announced that he’d have to miss that night’s game. It seems he’d accidentally put his hand through a glass window while moving boxes in his garage and required ten stitches in his index finger. I asked him to do some running during practice and he agreed but never did it. Afterward I asked him why he’d lied to me, and he said he was being sarcastic. I wasn’t laughing. What kind of adolescent game was this guy playing? Whatever it was, I didn’t want any part of it.
>After practice I went upstairs and told Mitch Kupchak we needed to talk about trading Kobe before the mid-February deadline. “I can’t coach Kobe,” I said. “He won’t listen to anyone. I can’t get through to him.” It was a futile appeal. Kobe was Dr. Buss’s wunderkind, and he was unlikely to trade him, even if it meant jeopardizing our shot at another ring. A few days later Dr. Buss, who worried that his young star might jump to another team, visited Kobe in Newport Beach and tried to persuade him to remain with the Lakers. Obviously, I wasn’t party to the meeting, but shortly thereafter, while we were riding on the team bus, Kobe told Derek Fisher, “Your man’s not coming back next year.” The “man” he was talking about was me.
All of this is so fascinating.
Also Draymond punched Poole, while Shaq dragged Shaw across the locker room until his knees were bleeding lmao shits wild.
absolutely. the vietnam war was the first war in history to be televised in (near) real time, and americans saw first-hand what their boys were up against. that changed the american public's perception of the war big-time.
>I’d just started my sabbatical in Australia when I got a call from Jeanie. She said the situation with the Lakers was dire. The team had gone into a tailspin and the new coach, Rudy Tomjanovich, had resigned. Could I come back and save the team?
>The roster had been decimated in the off-season. Not only did the Lakers trade Shaq, but they also lost Karl Malone to retirement, Rick Fox to the Celtics (he retired a few months later), and Gary Payton and Fish to free agency
>I suppose I might have felt a momentary flicker of schadenfreude, but, in fact, the demise of the Lakers didn’t make me happy. I’d worked hard to transform the team into a champion, and it was painful to watch my former assistant coach, Frank Hamblen, try in vain to hold things together at the end of the 2004–05 season. This was the first time the Lakers had failed to make the playoffs since the early 1990s.
>But before I said yes, I needed to get a read on whether Kobe and I could work together again. I had no idea what kind of reception I’d get from him, but when I called I didn’t sense any hard feelings. Kobe’s only request was for me to be more discreet with the media and not share personal information about him with reporters. That seemed reasonable. I think we both realized that in order to succeed we needed each other’s support and goodwill. Prior to the 2004–05 season, Kobe had boasted that as long as he played for the Lakers, the team would never fall below .500. But that’s exactly what happened: The Lakers tied for last place in the Pacific Division with a 34-48 record. That turned out to be a real wake-up call for Kobe.
It is no surprise that Kobe is as egotistical as 10 pro athletes but together, though his public image and even MJ the most competitive athletes ever to not have that sort of public image just makes me wonder how it woulda been if they was playing in this era and on twitter like KD.
KD's hated for bouncing around teams. Tbh personality wise Kobe doesn't seem like a social media guy. Lots of players dont dabble on twitter too much. Guys like Harden, Russ, Steph etc...
Shaq also gets away with being a bully. 18 year old skinny kid comes, shaq’s first thought was to punk him and talk shit and try to embarrass him. His bs with Dwight wasn’t the first. Media loved him because he acts goofy and shit so it all gets a pass, but he’s always been insecure and a huge bully.
I’ve read Shaq’s autobiography and The Three Ring Circus and it really puts into context just how far apart the two were on almost every level. Shaq has always been a bully and easily offended. I love Shaq but this is the truth. Kobe was also always very egotistical and cocky especially in the earlier years. Once again I love Kobe but it’s also the truth. Put those two personalities in close proximity and you get a ticking time bomb. Despite all of that they still came out with three rings which is incredible given the circumstances.
When Shaq did a racist caricature of someone speaking Chinese, Yao joked that Chinese was hard to learn and gracefully [replied](https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-when-shaquille-o-neal-s-father-bashed-racist-remarks-tell-yao-ming-ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh),
> “I think there are a lot of difficulties in two different cultures understanding each other, especially countries of very large populations, China and the United States. The world is getting smaller and has a greater understanding of cultures.”
Shaq eventually apologized to Yao.
> [Brian] ended up getting dragged around the locker room by Shaq until his knees were bleeding
Shaq sounds like he was a psycho
maybe the “ripping urinals off the walls” was true… I always assumed it was an exaggeration.
In that first run, Phil's main guy was Shaq, so he tended to have slightly more special treatment to Shaq.
Kobe was going through growing pains including being mule headed, breaking the triangle and Phil couldn't deal with it, and didn't want to.
When he wrote the book, Phil was out of the Lakers and had pent up rage towards Kobe due to one of Phil's kids being raped and Kobe being accused of rape.
The hierarchy is based on talent, not age. Gotta be such a weird feeling for those older dudes who were also that dude their whole lives until the nba. Truly remarkable mental strength to be able to swallow that pill. I’m sure the checks help though.
I mean, there’s a reason shaq is the only one who spoke up. Watch the Teague interview from the other day being scared of the shot and wanting Jimmy to take it. Those guys don’t want to be that guy
…that’s exactly what I’m saying. Shaq was at the top of the hierarchy so he was the only one who felt comfortable speaking up. Limited risk. Huge risk for the other guys.
It was known that Shaq made fun of Kobe. And the rape thing just made Kobe look so cruel and blinkered. He seemed selfish, tone-deaf, grasping. I think his greatest achievement was recovering from that, and making himself the icon he became.
Yeah, Shaq was not a great teammate at all, which is why to this day there are people that side with Kobe in their beef. The big issue is that Shaq was much more likeable back then, Kobe was very aloof at the start of his career. Shaq once was asked what were the Lakers problems and why they weren't performing as expected and he simply pointed at Kobe and said "There's the problem".
I swear Kobe and Shaq were quite literally the worst combination of personalities you could ever get in a team. If i'm not mistaken, SAS (who had many interviews with Kobe over the years) once said that Shaq tried to "big brother" Kobe from the moment they became teammates and Kobe wasn't having none of that shit. Like, if Kobe had played with Tim Duncan and Shaq with Allen Iverson, they might've been as successful, but without any of the drama or constant clashing.
Talent trumps everything, also Pop would be Kobe's coach since his rookie year while Phil only became his coach after he was already an All-NBA player set in his ways. Phil also openly favoured Shaq, which im sure didn't sit well with Kobe.
If Pop can put up with Uncle Dennis, he would have made it work with Kobe. One of the reasons Kobe never respected Shaq was because Shaq was lazy when it came to offseason workouts and conditioning. Tim Duncan was a workout warrior and the Spurs kept him fresh for a very long time. Kobe would respect Duncan and Pop. Kobe would have been a very different kind of star with the Spurs and none of the flash of LA.
Pop didn't put up with Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was kicked out of San Antonio for the shenanigans he pulled with the Spurs in the playoffs.
Kobe always took way too many shot and went rogue because he worked harder than everyone else and felt like he deserved the opportunity. Kobe felt like taking reigns of an offense was something you deserved, not what the defense happened to give you. Kobe would have never fit in inside of the Spurs just because this mindset never meshed there. None of the Spurs needed to be "the man" under Pop and that is what made the team special.
The man was Timmy but Timmy just sat there and took whatever Pop yelled at him and didn't fool around (most of the time) so nobody else had a position to stand on if they wanted to complain
Surprised the amazing crossover wasn't mentioned, that got Pippen still one of the greatest defenders even older, off balance that freed up Kobe the lane to pull off the alley-oop.
I've always gotten the idea that Kobe basically only cared about basketball in life while MJ was super competitive with everything but had some other interests
Like the idea of Kobe taking 2 years off to play baseball is unfathomable
Kobe just seemed like he was a loner his whole life kinda in regards to basketball at least. Look at the Dream Team doc on Netflix......everyone out partying but Kobe in the gym.
People here are too young to know that Woj was a huge Kobe hater before - much like most people were before the 08-10 run. One of the things he did was like a long ass article about how none of his teammates went to Kobe's daughter's birthday except for I think it was Caron Butler.
He always led by example and took accountability, but being that kind of leader that knew when to be "one of the boys" was hard for him until later in his career.
People here are too young to know that Woj was a very talented article writer. He was the master of controlling the narrative, and got his inside scoops based on how favorably or unfavorably he presented certain parties.
Now he’s just kinda the guy who tweets news a minute before the news would otherwise break.
I still remember Kobe saying “friends come and go but banners hang forever” he knew he wasn’t a good “one of the guys” type of leader but he simply didn’t care. It’s nice to see however after these last few years that him and Pau were very close.
He was also a stoic and monotone guy. He didn't have an enthusiastic quality to him like Jordan, Shaq, or Magic have.
So that was an even bigger barrier people had in terms of liking him.
The black kid in Italy, and then the not "black enough" kid here in the States. Kobe learned to do it himself, never quite fitting in, so opening up and getting help from people seemed almost impossible for him when he was in his twenties.
Jordan played 2 full rounds of golf with 10+ cans of Coors/Bud lights with Jeremy Roenick (JR) the morning before the Cavaliers game (and MJ losing to JR twice in the process and losing his bet) and proceeded to score 52 points that night and beat the Cavs by 20+, getting his money back lol.
[Source - JR himself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_vDB6qVFY)
I'd argue a lot of it came down to relationships with his parents.
No parents are perfect but look at depictions of the Jordans in various pieces of media compared to Kobe having to sue his parents to stop them from selling pieces of his memorabilia.
It doesn't even matter who was right and wrong, that it happened at all is sort of nuts it's not like it was an insurance thing that required a lawsuit because of a technicality.
Yeah Kobe became an icon later in his career and especially after his death but during his prime he was quite a polarizing player to the national audience
Definitely different from MJ who was almost universally loved by the public at the time before some of the "MJ the psycho" stories started leaking out later
definitely kukoc wasn’t singing him praises lol.
I thought his demeanor towards Jordan was the funniest thing about the doc. Like he wasn’t hating or complaining, but more just “meh” towards him, which was hilarious
I think Steve Kerr definitely seemed to come to understand, if not learn to appreciate, MJ’s brand of tough love/leadership more than most of the teammates who won with him — and he’s (I think) the only teammate that we know of that Mike was physical with.
I feel, in contrast, Kobe only ever lead by fierce example — I don’t think there’s one of his former teammates who’s ever spoken about playing with him who doesn’t alude to some period of adjustment to his absolute unwillingness to settle or take a day off — but over time, we all (fans, teammates, coaches) just adjusted to the lack of bend in the man’s will and work ethic and learned to appreciate a unique determination to master and maintain mastery of a craft that we don’t really see too much. I think most teammates of his now, even guys like Smush Parker and Dwight Howard, understand that his thing was never personal, but always based in this samurai-like dedication to basketball that they weren’t ready to buy into at the time.
Dirk is such a goofy dork who can torch you. You can't help but respect his game. That finals run the Mavs has got to be one of these best runs in postseason history for a team that wasn't favored. Dude got game and I'm glad it led to more euros in the league. It's a different kinda swag.
> Kobe became an icon later in his career and especially after his death
So did you just not watch baskeball until 2013 or what? Kobe was a literal walking Icon from the moment he and Shaq won their first ring.
Average age of an r/NBA user is between 18-25, most people here did indeed start watching basketball after 2013 or atleast understanding it. Kobe and AI were THE icons of the 2000s, one was the MJ for the generation that came after MJ retired and the other was relatable due to his height.
It's crystal clear how much most people in r/NBA didn't watch a second of basketball pre-2010 when you see people making arguments that Kobe wasn't the best player in the league back then. Mfers don't know that LeBron James himself said that it was Kobe then the rest in 2008, Kobe was undisputedly the best from atleast '06 to 2010.
damn i really aged out of the top demo. yeah, started watching hardcore in like 08. kobe was pretty much the consensus best player in the league until bron took over during the heat days
I love that as he grew older and realized there was more to life, he began mentoring younger players. And the insights and guidance he's offered to many has lead to palpable results. The Redeem Team was instrumental in that IIRC.
Beyond that, his parents refusing to accept his marriage with Vanessa (IIRC they didn't attend the wedding) because she was hispanic didn't help either.
They only wanted money from him and even pawned off a lot of his high school and early career stuff for cash. Can’t blame Kobe for that, it’s a brutal thing to realize your parents don’t actually care about you as a person but only about your success and money
He said a lot, he dealt with a lot of racism and used it to fuel him, then when he moved to Philly he dealt with not being "black enough" and used that as well.
Michael is to this day maniacally competitive at basically everything, he used to gamble and compete at everything he possibly could, he might still even do that even though he is 60 now. Kobe was obssessed with basketball, but it was clear as day how much he mellowed when he announced his retirement and after his basketball career.
Don't get me wrong, Kobe still strived for excellence and worked really hard after retiring because that's who he was as a person, but he was a completely different individual, much more approachable and chill. Michael, on the other hand, whenever he shows up in public, he's just Michael, but older. It's hard to explain, but if you watch interviews from Michael from 1991, 2003 or 2009, he still is the same guy in almost every way, Kobe changed so much over the years.
Kobe chilled but there was still stuff like how when Shaq was rapping on the bus and Kobe sucked at it he came back a few days later ready to rap again with a bunch of clearly rehearsed verses lol
Yeah, don't forget that Anthony Anderson story.
He told it on Conan - he plays golf with Jordan, usually with a heavy handicap (points boost) because Jordan's so much better than him. He beat Jordan ONCE on a day where Jordan was a little tired and he just had an unbelievable, once-in-a-lifetime hot streak and Jordan said from then on he didn't get a handicap anymore.
Later, they went on vacation with their families and played dominos - a game for children that Anthony Anderson just happens to be great at - and beating Jordan at dominos meant that for the rest of the vacation when they took pictures with people who recognized them, Jordan insisted on separate photos - you take one with Anthony, one with me. But no sharing photos.
Jordan is another level.
Whenever people talk about Jordan's first retirement, I like to bring up the conspiracy that he was asked to retire by Stern because of his gambling issues: [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/131997-mjs-1st-retirement-was-it-a-secret-suspension](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/131997-mjs-1st-retirement-was-it-a-secret-suspension)
And then I like to bring up the debunking of that conspiracy: [https://www.si.com/nba/2020/04/25/michael-jordan-retirement-gambling-conspiracy](https://www.si.com/nba/2020/04/25/michael-jordan-retirement-gambling-conspiracy)
It's kind of a fun story.
He was singularly focused during his playing career for sure, but he was doing all sorts of stuff in the short time he had after retirement. Writing children’s books, major business portfolio, etc.
Which is actually kinda funny because upon retirement, MJ is still pretty much involved in the NBA while Kobe was able to somewhat detach himself from the league.
I was alluding to the fact that MJ was already retired the first time, already had a front office job at the Wizards, and still chose to come back to play. While Kobe gave 2 decades for the Lakers, retired, and never bothered himself with any league business. I didn't disagree with OP; it's just a funny observation with how they dealt with life after NBA.
Heard a story where MJ was just dogging on Clyde during the Olympics to the point where other guys told him he needed to chill tf out. This led to a practice where Clyde wore two left shoes the whole time because he was too embarrassed to say he accidentally grabbed two left shoes before leaving to practice
It’s hilarious how people are downvoting you for asking a simple question.
But yes, Bill Simmons told that exact story about MJ / Drexler in his Dame Lillard pod about 2 weeks ago. Basically word for word down to the two left shoes thing.
And yeah, we all know Redditors don’t read books. They barely even read articles they sure as hell ain’t reading a whole book.
As off the rails as Pippen has gone in recent years, I think having a more low key and chill leader like Pippen made it easier lol. Practically all of Pippen's teammates talked positively about him afterward and stated how he was beloved and brought good vibes to the team.
You got the tough love and respectful love put together.
Then, again, all this MJ/Kobe psychology shit is probably just romanticized BS. Obviously, you want to be a competitive killer. That's necessary to win.
But if MJ and Kobe weren't that good, they'd just be Jordan Poole or Dillon Brooks, where they cause trouble in the locker room for their teams.
Jordan Poole got punched in the face and STILL didn’t get sympathy from his coach and team and then got shipped off in the off-season. Something tells me that he wasn’t exactly innocent. Just cause the mf got punched in the face doesn’t mean he’s not causing trouble
This is just misinformation. Looney came out in support of Poole and blasted Draymond to the media. He also said Draymond would need to earn the trust of his teammates again.
Steph was in support of Poole to the media when the punch happened. Poole playing poorly after obviously frustrated him but that’s independent of the Green punch.
Wiggins was Poole’s best friend on the team.
Reports were that the youngsters no longer trusted Draymond as their leader. Seemed like especially Kuminga didnt like it and has had problems with chemistry and Kerr since then. The whole team’s defense at the start of the season was horrible even with Draymond playing because of the punch.
Kerr had chemistry problems with Poole since his sophomore year. Poole basically forced Kerr to play him by being so good in the GLeague that he had to play Poole over Wannamaker. It cannot be understated how badly Wannamaker was playing until then and Kerr did not give Poole a chance over him despite Poole playing well in all the spotty minutes that season as well as improving every game. Poole ended up being a key bench piece that same season he was getting DNPs for Wannamaker who was waived midseason.
The decision to trade him is a front office and team construction one—the Warriors cannot play defense without Draymond, so for a GM its better to trade Poole if Poole and Draymond have issues. That way they can compete while Steph is still playing at a high level. Dray and Poole both have issues with Kerr but it makes it easier if one of them is off the team.
Basketball wise Poole’s play did not fit well with the Warriors system last year. When his shots are falling it looks nice but that wasn’t exactly the norm. He was a huge liability on defense and would make boneheaded plays down the stretch nearly every opportunity he had.
That said he was a key player in their 2022 championship run. The punch no doubt played a role in his poor play and clearly affected his confidence.
Pippen has really not been able to enjoy his accomplishments as much as MJ. I think klay is the next player that will be viewed like this. If shaq and Kobe never split Kobe will probably be viewed like this
Any smart basketball fan knows Klay held it down for Steph’s ass on defense. Steph can do all the fancy moves he wants but other end of the ball he didn’t step up on mfers like Klay.
He was harsh at times and an asshole at times, but to paint this picture that Jordan was always an asshole to his teammates couldn’t be further from the truth. He was a fantastic teammate, amazing leader, and successfully pushed his teammates to be the best version of themselves, and not just by yelling at them which a lot of people here might make you believe.
MJ also gotten his team mates involved in his breakfast club, where they worked out and then had meals cooked by his chef. MJ just didn't like giving out free handouts, he was notoriously stingy when it comes to giving free autographs and giving free money to bums. It comes from his upbringing being a poor boy in North Carolina, his parents did have 5 kids so they didn't have as much money. And his competitive spirit came from battling his brothers Larry and James.
I really liked Kobe as a player, partially because I grew up with the Jordan Bulls, and Kobe with Phil just gave some of that energy. It felt like a continuation of that team. But Kobe could also be infuriating to watch. I know over time, a lot people grew to love Kobe and speak about how he really became a teacher, etc. But that was Kobe later in his career. And, in some ways, it always felt a little artificial. Older fans will recall that when Kobe first came into the league, he had a reputation of being aloof. Some said it was because he grew up in Italy. Some say it was because he grew up well-off. Others say he was too focused on basketball. Maybe it was a combination, but a lot of people say he just didn't really fit in at first. It's also pretty understandable, since he was just 18.
Maybe there should be more empathy, since he basically grew into adulthood in the public eye. But I always thought it was a little cringey later in his career when he gave himself the "Black Mamba" nickname after Kill Bill came out. And who can ever forget this photoshoot: [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/388281-kobe-bryant-la-times-photo-shoot-what-was-he-thinking](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/388281-kobe-bryant-la-times-photo-shoot-what-was-he-thinking)
But some of Kobe's change is probably just getting older and more mature. And there's also the benefit of becoming the leader of the team, rather than either sharing or having to defer to Shaq.
Anyway, it's always interesting to read other people's perceptions of other players, and how it potentially differs by which generation you are from.
Jordan had the benefit of going to college and making some friends there. I believe he joined a fraternity while in school, too. It's understandable that Jordan might have been more mature. He also didn't have to compete with someone to be recognized as the best player on the team.
With all that being said, I wish Kobe was still around, and seeing the NBA on TNT guys, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan all talk about him will always bring me to tears.
Fun fact, there was a period in time where a lot of players were making rap albums. Shaq is the one that everyone knows about, but there were others...
[https://deadline.com/2021/05/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-rap-album-hall-of-fame-induction-1234757106/](https://deadline.com/2021/05/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-rap-album-hall-of-fame-induction-1234757106/)
Wasn't just going to college, he played for Dean Smith. Basketball aside, Smith was a huge civil rights activist and had some crazy teaching stories. One of them was shipping an assistant coach (who would be his successor) to Africa to get some perspective of one of their foreign players.
That whole Dean Smith line of players and coaches is one gigantic family.
Jordan had unreal wire-y strength. He’s probably one of the strongest pound for pound players of all time. His ideal playing weight was only 213 iirc and yet he, like Phil said, had a crazy strong frame
kawhi is even stronger but not as athletic as prime mike.
kawhi just powered through people.
but then kawhi is not as strong as prime lebron who was bulldozing everyone in his way
Not the same, not to go nerd but Goku and Vegeta have such different personalities whereas Jordan and Kobe don’t really. Kobe wanted to be like Mike. You don’t see Goku and Vegeta emulating each other, they are their own men.
The best Goku versus Vegeta comparison is Messi and Ronaldo. You’ll never find a better one.
Messi is Goku; laid back, naturally talented, comes effortlessly, kind of awkward, and the protagonist of soccer. Vegeta is Ronaldo; harder worker, more serious, envious of Goku/Messi, always playing catchup and in the eyes of most, and in reality, is a second to Goku/Messi.
Random but I have a funny Kobe story.
I was at Disneyland, this was maybe a year before he passed or so. My fiancé and I were walking through Star Wars land behind some kids who were obviously basketball fans. We walked behind them for about 5 minutes and during the entire time they were debating about GOATs and all that and one of the kids said something hella immature, like "Kobe was ass, bro" obviously just being a little kid and all that. Anyways, we turn the corner into another part of the park and who is walking towards but Kobe himself, getting escorted through the park with his daughter on his shoulders. The kid who just said "Kobe was ass" dropped to his knees quite literally and was in utter disbelief. Kobe said something to the affect of "have a good day, gentlemen" and kept walking. Obviously just a small little interaction but I always thought that was funny.
Everybody should listen to what Tim Grover has to say about Kobe and MJ, both had crazy obsession with winning. Both had crazy work ethics. MJ would often go play rounds of golf, or gamble, then sleep for a few hours, workout and then play games and still end up dropping 30 a night. MJ had a crazy sleep schedule, where he was refreshed after like 3 hours of sleep.
Kobe was more dedicated to basketball and he had a single track mind. You don't get up at 4AM in the morning to bike in the desert. And Kobe also had like a crazy sleep schedule as well, like 4 hours per day when you're in the NBA is insane. I appreciate both legends for what kind of work they are doing to get where they are.
Its so strange how Kobe and MJ have followed opposite paths in the public opinion. MJ was universally loved and people are now starting to say actually "hes a bit of a ***". And Kobe was pretty unpopular at one point and over the years people have come to appreciate him on and off the court.
I personally never see people say that on here. Maybe it gets buried at the bottom of the thread. From my experience anytime someone brings up the rape it gets upvoted with like zero replies
People hate Kobe because of the whole rape thing. MJ may have been an ass but he was hardly as hated as Kobe. I don't think these trajectories will change. The people who hate Kobe for the rape will continue to hate him.
I couldn’t stand Kobe, and that was before the rape thing. Dude was extremely easy to basketball hate to many different fan bases. A ball hog who forced out one of the greatest players of all time and always seemed grumpy? It wasn’t hard.
Nah Kobe had already become widely beloved by the time he died. He once was the villain, and lived long enough to somehow rehabilitate that image before he passed
Kobe after he tore his Achilles when lakers started rebuilding and tanking was when Kobe was focused more on his writing and movies and his daughters basketball. Started training guys from the nba and kinda just moved on mentally from playing basketball to next step in life. Won a Oscar right away too
What is this revisionist BS and how is it upvoted? He was already well loved before he passed. 2008 Olympic team he was pretty much the most beloved sportsman around the world aside from Ronaldinho.
Yeah no, Kobe is still polarizing but obviously popular, but MJ is still unanimously worshipped and Last Dance really opened him up to a new generation.
Arena staff are real fun to be around, in my experience. My gf lost her phone in the stadium when we went last and so we got to go into the belly of target center as all the people were clocking out. Retrieved the phone, rode up an elevator with like 20 workers, they were cracking jokes with me like they’ve known me for years.
One guy mentioned they should take us onto the court for fun. I laughed, thinking it was a joke. To this day I’m still certain they were serious and I missed an opportunity
>Kobe was having a difficult time staying in the triangle and would frequently go rogue, which annoyed his teammates. Many of them told me they didn’t like playing with Kobe because he didn’t respect the system. I’d been through this before with Michael, but Kobe, who had recently turned twenty-one, wasn’t as mature and open-minded as Jordan. >Kobe was also a stubborn, hardheaded learner. He was so confident in his ability that you couldn’t simply point out his mistakes and expect him to alter his behavior. He would have to experience failure directly before his resistance would start to break down. It was often an excruciating process for him and everyone else involved. >One of those moments happened in early February. That’s when the team was struck by a puzzling malaise. After a less-than-stellar performance, I closed the locker room to all but the players and asked what had happened to cause them to suddenly stop playing together. Kobe was in the last row with his hoodie pulled over his head. I reviewed the demands that the triangle offense placed on each team member, then concluded: “You can’t be a selfish player and make this offense work for the team’s good. Period.” When I opened the floor to comments, there was complete silence, and I was about to adjourn the meeting when Shaq spoke up. He got right to the point, saying, “I think Kobe is playing too selfishly for us to win.” That got everyone fired up. Some of the players nodded in support of Shaq, including Rick Fox, who said, “How many times have we been through this?” No one in that room came to Kobe’s defense. > The Blazers were killing us with high screen-rolls because Shaq was averse to coming out of his comfort zone and getting caught chasing after players such as Stoudamire or Smith. During moments like this, Shaq was in danger of falling into a downward spiral of self-defeat, which had crippled him during big games in the past. The perfect example of putting a head on top of a head. So I told him, in no uncertain terms, that this was his moment. He needed to move out of the lane and start breaking down the screen-rolls no matter what. He nodded in agreement. >Then, with less than a minute left and the Lakers up by four, Kobe drove toward the basket and surprised everyone by lofting a beautiful pass to Shaq two feet above the rim, which he grabbed and dunked. It was a gratifying moment to see these two men come together for a perfectly coordinated play that put the game out of reach.
That lob is still one of the most iconic plays of all time
I’ll never forget it . I was a kid but I remember vividly, we were watching the game at Johns Incredible Pizza . The place went CRAZY . Definitely one of the happiest moments of my life .
Shaq’s reaction/celebration is so memorable.
This story gives it context too. He was probably thrilled that Kobe was ready to share and be unselfish.
yeah now it makes sense. he’s like “holy shit he actually threw me the ball!”😂😂
“KOBE PASSED ME THE BALL HE NEVER PASSES ME THE BALL”
Funny how that’s also the Ron Artest quote after he hit that big shot.
"I be dreaming, pass to Kobe"
Shaq's reaction was got me. That was a moment no doubt. One.
I thought we broke our college friend’s sliding glass door, we jismd so hard
First time I have ever seen the verb “jism” on Reddit.
I assume he's talking about [this play](https://youtu.be/RM_Q_1qP2vw), right?
I have never seen that HD sideline angle. Ty for posting.
Kobe straight cooked Pippen on this play.
Maybe it's the specific defense they were playing, but there was no reason for Pip to be that close to Kobe when Kobe is that far from the basket. There's a reason Kobe cooked Pippen so easily on that play. The funny thing is Pippen did the same thing to Charles Barkley in the finals. Look up that finals-winning John Paxson shot. The only reason he was open was Pip flew past Barkley because Barkley was guarding Pip up close beyond the top of the key, so the Suns had to rotate to Pippen (even though the culprit on paper might be Danny Aingle because he rotated away from Paxson, when supposedly they said to never leave the 3-point shooter open, but trust me athlete muscle memory is hard to break) which caused Paxson to be open.
“Put the champagne away and break out the bottled water” is a great line.
Shaq’s face when he’s running back up the floor is the best
Yes.
Staples Center was so well lit. I think it's a better look
And saddest
Just a kid sitting in front of the box set tv and when that lob pass then dunk happened I felt I was in the game. You could feel the magic of the lakers
The reaction was a chefs kiss
Good quote where's that from or am I so stoned I just read it and forgot it? 😋 All the team knew the issue but noone had the standing to call Kobe out even with a closed meeting. Shaq was the only who could say something and have it mean anything.
Phil Jackson's book Eleven Rings. Here's more: >Grandstanding in the press didn’t trouble me as much as when Shaq lashed out in person at one of his teammates. That happened in a game against the San Antonio Spurs during the 2003 playoffs. Shaq was furious because Devean George had made a mistake at the end of the game that allowed Malik Rose to pick off an offensive rebound and put up the game-winning shot. Shaq started to go after Devean in the locker room after the game, but Brian Shaw made him stop. >He called out to him, “If you’d used that much energy blocking out under the boards, you would have gotten yourself a rebound and we probably would have won the game. So instead of taking it out on Devean, why don’t you take responsibility for where you came up short?” At that point, Shaq let Devean go and went after Brian, who tried to tackle him but ended up getting dragged around the locker room by Shaq until his knees were bleeding and the other players pulled him off. >From the moment of Kobe’s arrest, I had a lot of practice working with my anger that year, and Kobe was my main teacher. In late January he showed up at the training facility with a bandaged hand and announced that he’d have to miss that night’s game. It seems he’d accidentally put his hand through a glass window while moving boxes in his garage and required ten stitches in his index finger. I asked him to do some running during practice and he agreed but never did it. Afterward I asked him why he’d lied to me, and he said he was being sarcastic. I wasn’t laughing. What kind of adolescent game was this guy playing? Whatever it was, I didn’t want any part of it. >After practice I went upstairs and told Mitch Kupchak we needed to talk about trading Kobe before the mid-February deadline. “I can’t coach Kobe,” I said. “He won’t listen to anyone. I can’t get through to him.” It was a futile appeal. Kobe was Dr. Buss’s wunderkind, and he was unlikely to trade him, even if it meant jeopardizing our shot at another ring. A few days later Dr. Buss, who worried that his young star might jump to another team, visited Kobe in Newport Beach and tried to persuade him to remain with the Lakers. Obviously, I wasn’t party to the meeting, but shortly thereafter, while we were riding on the team bus, Kobe told Derek Fisher, “Your man’s not coming back next year.” The “man” he was talking about was me.
All of this is so fascinating. Also Draymond punched Poole, while Shaq dragged Shaw across the locker room until his knees were bleeding lmao shits wild.
One was caught on tape lol. Not saying Shaq would've been trade on the spot or anything, but that does make a difference in terms of impact.
absolutely. the vietnam war was the first war in history to be televised in (near) real time, and americans saw first-hand what their boys were up against. that changed the american public's perception of the war big-time.
“I don’t know what any of this has to do with ‘Nam, man?”
> Kobe told Derek Fisher, “Your man’s not coming back next year.” damn that's some Game of Thrones shit lol
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>I’d just started my sabbatical in Australia when I got a call from Jeanie. She said the situation with the Lakers was dire. The team had gone into a tailspin and the new coach, Rudy Tomjanovich, had resigned. Could I come back and save the team? >The roster had been decimated in the off-season. Not only did the Lakers trade Shaq, but they also lost Karl Malone to retirement, Rick Fox to the Celtics (he retired a few months later), and Gary Payton and Fish to free agency >I suppose I might have felt a momentary flicker of schadenfreude, but, in fact, the demise of the Lakers didn’t make me happy. I’d worked hard to transform the team into a champion, and it was painful to watch my former assistant coach, Frank Hamblen, try in vain to hold things together at the end of the 2004–05 season. This was the first time the Lakers had failed to make the playoffs since the early 1990s. >But before I said yes, I needed to get a read on whether Kobe and I could work together again. I had no idea what kind of reception I’d get from him, but when I called I didn’t sense any hard feelings. Kobe’s only request was for me to be more discreet with the media and not share personal information about him with reporters. That seemed reasonable. I think we both realized that in order to succeed we needed each other’s support and goodwill. Prior to the 2004–05 season, Kobe had boasted that as long as he played for the Lakers, the team would never fall below .500. But that’s exactly what happened: The Lakers tied for last place in the Pacific Division with a 34-48 record. That turned out to be a real wake-up call for Kobe.
It is no surprise that Kobe is as egotistical as 10 pro athletes but together, though his public image and even MJ the most competitive athletes ever to not have that sort of public image just makes me wonder how it woulda been if they was playing in this era and on twitter like KD.
KD's hated for bouncing around teams. Tbh personality wise Kobe doesn't seem like a social media guy. Lots of players dont dabble on twitter too much. Guys like Harden, Russ, Steph etc...
Shaq also gets away with being a bully. 18 year old skinny kid comes, shaq’s first thought was to punk him and talk shit and try to embarrass him. His bs with Dwight wasn’t the first. Media loved him because he acts goofy and shit so it all gets a pass, but he’s always been insecure and a huge bully.
I’ve read Shaq’s autobiography and The Three Ring Circus and it really puts into context just how far apart the two were on almost every level. Shaq has always been a bully and easily offended. I love Shaq but this is the truth. Kobe was also always very egotistical and cocky especially in the earlier years. Once again I love Kobe but it’s also the truth. Put those two personalities in close proximity and you get a ticking time bomb. Despite all of that they still came out with three rings which is incredible given the circumstances.
When Shaq did a racist caricature of someone speaking Chinese, Yao joked that Chinese was hard to learn and gracefully [replied](https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-when-shaquille-o-neal-s-father-bashed-racist-remarks-tell-yao-ming-ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh), > “I think there are a lot of difficulties in two different cultures understanding each other, especially countries of very large populations, China and the United States. The world is getting smaller and has a greater understanding of cultures.” Shaq eventually apologized to Yao.
I don't envy these NBA coaches having to manage these massive ego's from their players.
> [Brian] ended up getting dragged around the locker room by Shaq until his knees were bleeding Shaq sounds like he was a psycho maybe the “ripping urinals off the walls” was true… I always assumed it was an exaggeration.
In that first run, Phil's main guy was Shaq, so he tended to have slightly more special treatment to Shaq. Kobe was going through growing pains including being mule headed, breaking the triangle and Phil couldn't deal with it, and didn't want to. When he wrote the book, Phil was out of the Lakers and had pent up rage towards Kobe due to one of Phil's kids being raped and Kobe being accused of rape.
Yeah he talks about it in the book. Eleven Rings was published in 2014. Well after they had re-united and won again.
Acknowledge. I was referencing The Last Season: A Team In Search of Its Soul Which was written in 2005.
And good on Shaq to do so. It arguably won them the chip by standing up.
Mind you, this was a team of vets afraid to speak out about a 23 year old.
The hierarchy is based on talent, not age. Gotta be such a weird feeling for those older dudes who were also that dude their whole lives until the nba. Truly remarkable mental strength to be able to swallow that pill. I’m sure the checks help though.
I mean, there’s a reason shaq is the only one who spoke up. Watch the Teague interview from the other day being scared of the shot and wanting Jimmy to take it. Those guys don’t want to be that guy
…that’s exactly what I’m saying. Shaq was at the top of the hierarchy so he was the only one who felt comfortable speaking up. Limited risk. Huge risk for the other guys.
They weren’t scared. It’s a common thing in the nba of finding it hard to throw teammates under the bus.
It was known that Shaq made fun of Kobe. And the rape thing just made Kobe look so cruel and blinkered. He seemed selfish, tone-deaf, grasping. I think his greatest achievement was recovering from that, and making himself the icon he became.
Yeah, Shaq was not a great teammate at all, which is why to this day there are people that side with Kobe in their beef. The big issue is that Shaq was much more likeable back then, Kobe was very aloof at the start of his career. Shaq once was asked what were the Lakers problems and why they weren't performing as expected and he simply pointed at Kobe and said "There's the problem". I swear Kobe and Shaq were quite literally the worst combination of personalities you could ever get in a team. If i'm not mistaken, SAS (who had many interviews with Kobe over the years) once said that Shaq tried to "big brother" Kobe from the moment they became teammates and Kobe wasn't having none of that shit. Like, if Kobe had played with Tim Duncan and Shaq with Allen Iverson, they might've been as successful, but without any of the drama or constant clashing.
Pop or duncan wouldn't put up with any of that shit.
Talent trumps everything, also Pop would be Kobe's coach since his rookie year while Phil only became his coach after he was already an All-NBA player set in his ways. Phil also openly favoured Shaq, which im sure didn't sit well with Kobe.
Guys like Stephen jackson won rings with the spurs, kobe would be fine lol
Stephen Jackson hates on Pop to this day
Stephen Jackson is the epitome of a mid-tier player who rates himself way too highly
True, he speaks as if he was a superstar
He was better than mid-tier tho. Dude played almost 1000 games and averaged 15 with above average defense in regular and postseason.
Jackson was a role player though. And he has a lot of ill will towards Pop and the Spurs. Kobe would've been a much worse situation imo
If Pop can put up with Uncle Dennis, he would have made it work with Kobe. One of the reasons Kobe never respected Shaq was because Shaq was lazy when it came to offseason workouts and conditioning. Tim Duncan was a workout warrior and the Spurs kept him fresh for a very long time. Kobe would respect Duncan and Pop. Kobe would have been a very different kind of star with the Spurs and none of the flash of LA.
Pop didn't put up with Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was kicked out of San Antonio for the shenanigans he pulled with the Spurs in the playoffs. Kobe always took way too many shot and went rogue because he worked harder than everyone else and felt like he deserved the opportunity. Kobe felt like taking reigns of an offense was something you deserved, not what the defense happened to give you. Kobe would have never fit in inside of the Spurs just because this mindset never meshed there. None of the Spurs needed to be "the man" under Pop and that is what made the team special.
The man was Timmy but Timmy just sat there and took whatever Pop yelled at him and didn't fool around (most of the time) so nobody else had a position to stand on if they wanted to complain
Just an opinion, spurs got their Kobe like in Manu. So we don’t even have to wonder about spurs’ theoretical outcome, only Kobe’s
>Shaq with Allen Iverson, they might've been as successful Someone wanna explain to me why this would have worked?
> the rape thing FFS oh thank goodness that didn't prevent him from becoming an icon, though
It was just one teensy little time where he violently raped a teenager, happens to the best of us
Surprised the amazing crossover wasn't mentioned, that got Pippen still one of the greatest defenders even older, off balance that freed up Kobe the lane to pull off the alley-oop.
I've always gotten the idea that Kobe basically only cared about basketball in life while MJ was super competitive with everything but had some other interests Like the idea of Kobe taking 2 years off to play baseball is unfathomable
Kobe just seemed like he was a loner his whole life kinda in regards to basketball at least. Look at the Dream Team doc on Netflix......everyone out partying but Kobe in the gym.
He’s talked about growing up in Italy kind of shaped him to be that type of person since everyone looked at him as the kid that didn’t fit in.
People here are too young to know that Woj was a huge Kobe hater before - much like most people were before the 08-10 run. One of the things he did was like a long ass article about how none of his teammates went to Kobe's daughter's birthday except for I think it was Caron Butler. He always led by example and took accountability, but being that kind of leader that knew when to be "one of the boys" was hard for him until later in his career.
People here are too young to know that Woj was a very talented article writer. He was the master of controlling the narrative, and got his inside scoops based on how favorably or unfavorably he presented certain parties. Now he’s just kinda the guy who tweets news a minute before the news would otherwise break.
His career parallels sports journalism in general
I’m high af rn and this makes so much sense
It makes great sense sober too dw.
I still remember Kobe saying “friends come and go but banners hang forever” he knew he wasn’t a good “one of the guys” type of leader but he simply didn’t care. It’s nice to see however after these last few years that him and Pau were very close.
He was also a stoic and monotone guy. He didn't have an enthusiastic quality to him like Jordan, Shaq, or Magic have. So that was an even bigger barrier people had in terms of liking him.
Kobe took accountability???
“I now see that…”
Did this Kobe hate start in hmmm 2003?
The black kid in Italy, and then the not "black enough" kid here in the States. Kobe learned to do it himself, never quite fitting in, so opening up and getting help from people seemed almost impossible for him when he was in his twenties.
Jordan played 2 full rounds of golf the morning before a game at the olympics.
Jordan played 2 full rounds of golf with 10+ cans of Coors/Bud lights with Jeremy Roenick (JR) the morning before the Cavaliers game (and MJ losing to JR twice in the process and losing his bet) and proceeded to score 52 points that night and beat the Cavs by 20+, getting his money back lol. [Source - JR himself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_vDB6qVFY)
I'd argue a lot of it came down to relationships with his parents. No parents are perfect but look at depictions of the Jordans in various pieces of media compared to Kobe having to sue his parents to stop them from selling pieces of his memorabilia. It doesn't even matter who was right and wrong, that it happened at all is sort of nuts it's not like it was an insurance thing that required a lawsuit because of a technicality.
Yeah Kobe became an icon later in his career and especially after his death but during his prime he was quite a polarizing player to the national audience Definitely different from MJ who was almost universally loved by the public at the time before some of the "MJ the psycho" stories started leaking out later
A lot of players loved MJ as well despite him being ruthless on the court
Some people loved MJ because he was ruthless on the court.
Most people. He's the greatest player of all time for a reason.
definitely kukoc wasn’t singing him praises lol. I thought his demeanor towards Jordan was the funniest thing about the doc. Like he wasn’t hating or complaining, but more just “meh” towards him, which was hilarious
I think Steve Kerr definitely seemed to come to understand, if not learn to appreciate, MJ’s brand of tough love/leadership more than most of the teammates who won with him — and he’s (I think) the only teammate that we know of that Mike was physical with. I feel, in contrast, Kobe only ever lead by fierce example — I don’t think there’s one of his former teammates who’s ever spoken about playing with him who doesn’t alude to some period of adjustment to his absolute unwillingness to settle or take a day off — but over time, we all (fans, teammates, coaches) just adjusted to the lack of bend in the man’s will and work ethic and learned to appreciate a unique determination to master and maintain mastery of a craft that we don’t really see too much. I think most teammates of his now, even guys like Smush Parker and Dwight Howard, understand that his thing was never personal, but always based in this samurai-like dedication to basketball that they weren’t ready to buy into at the time.
Foreign player got no love, not until dirk.
Dirk is such a goofy dork who can torch you. You can't help but respect his game. That finals run the Mavs has got to be one of these best runs in postseason history for a team that wasn't favored. Dude got game and I'm glad it led to more euros in the league. It's a different kinda swag.
They were in awe of him. BJ Armstrong went to the library to check out books on geniuses to try to understand him.
Getting pretty credibly accused of rape doesn't help
> Kobe became an icon later in his career and especially after his death So did you just not watch baskeball until 2013 or what? Kobe was a literal walking Icon from the moment he and Shaq won their first ring.
Average age of an r/NBA user is between 18-25, most people here did indeed start watching basketball after 2013 or atleast understanding it. Kobe and AI were THE icons of the 2000s, one was the MJ for the generation that came after MJ retired and the other was relatable due to his height. It's crystal clear how much most people in r/NBA didn't watch a second of basketball pre-2010 when you see people making arguments that Kobe wasn't the best player in the league back then. Mfers don't know that LeBron James himself said that it was Kobe then the rest in 2008, Kobe was undisputedly the best from atleast '06 to 2010.
damn i really aged out of the top demo. yeah, started watching hardcore in like 08. kobe was pretty much the consensus best player in the league until bron took over during the heat days
I have been out of the top demo since Giannis was drafted.
Smh. This cat's committing Frobe slander.
I love that as he grew older and realized there was more to life, he began mentoring younger players. And the insights and guidance he's offered to many has lead to palpable results. The Redeem Team was instrumental in that IIRC.
I wonder how much Kobe's being a loner was influenced by him living in Italy from age 6 to 13 and then moving back the Philly area.
Beyond that, his parents refusing to accept his marriage with Vanessa (IIRC they didn't attend the wedding) because she was hispanic didn't help either.
I think they still weren't on good terms when he passed. One of the saddest things about it all.
They only wanted money from him and even pawned off a lot of his high school and early career stuff for cash. Can’t blame Kobe for that, it’s a brutal thing to realize your parents don’t actually care about you as a person but only about your success and money
He said a lot, he dealt with a lot of racism and used it to fuel him, then when he moved to Philly he dealt with not being "black enough" and used that as well.
Lower Merion is a white ass school in the suburbs tho. Unless it was different in the 90’s
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White people will make fun of you plenty for not being black enough
They'll also make fun of you for being too black. Basically kids are ruthless and will make fun of anyone for anything.
Very good point. [Kobe after a loss. South Beach or drills](https://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=6205162)? What a wild man. Obsessed
Michael is to this day maniacally competitive at basically everything, he used to gamble and compete at everything he possibly could, he might still even do that even though he is 60 now. Kobe was obssessed with basketball, but it was clear as day how much he mellowed when he announced his retirement and after his basketball career. Don't get me wrong, Kobe still strived for excellence and worked really hard after retiring because that's who he was as a person, but he was a completely different individual, much more approachable and chill. Michael, on the other hand, whenever he shows up in public, he's just Michael, but older. It's hard to explain, but if you watch interviews from Michael from 1991, 2003 or 2009, he still is the same guy in almost every way, Kobe changed so much over the years.
Kobe chilled but there was still stuff like how when Shaq was rapping on the bus and Kobe sucked at it he came back a few days later ready to rap again with a bunch of clearly rehearsed verses lol
OK, that is pretty funny.
Yeah, don't forget that Anthony Anderson story. He told it on Conan - he plays golf with Jordan, usually with a heavy handicap (points boost) because Jordan's so much better than him. He beat Jordan ONCE on a day where Jordan was a little tired and he just had an unbelievable, once-in-a-lifetime hot streak and Jordan said from then on he didn't get a handicap anymore. Later, they went on vacation with their families and played dominos - a game for children that Anthony Anderson just happens to be great at - and beating Jordan at dominos meant that for the rest of the vacation when they took pictures with people who recognized them, Jordan insisted on separate photos - you take one with Anthony, one with me. But no sharing photos. Jordan is another level.
Kobe's dad was not murdered and then had the press crawl up his ass asking about it. That is what drove Jordan to take 2 years off for baseball.
Whenever people talk about Jordan's first retirement, I like to bring up the conspiracy that he was asked to retire by Stern because of his gambling issues: [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/131997-mjs-1st-retirement-was-it-a-secret-suspension](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/131997-mjs-1st-retirement-was-it-a-secret-suspension) And then I like to bring up the debunking of that conspiracy: [https://www.si.com/nba/2020/04/25/michael-jordan-retirement-gambling-conspiracy](https://www.si.com/nba/2020/04/25/michael-jordan-retirement-gambling-conspiracy) It's kind of a fun story.
Those are both good reads. Same with the numerous links to other articles in those two pieces. Cheers!
He was singularly focused during his playing career for sure, but he was doing all sorts of stuff in the short time he had after retirement. Writing children’s books, major business portfolio, etc.
Which is actually kinda funny because upon retirement, MJ is still pretty much involved in the NBA while Kobe was able to somewhat detach himself from the league.
Playing and coaching/owning a team are very different things
I was alluding to the fact that MJ was already retired the first time, already had a front office job at the Wizards, and still chose to come back to play. While Kobe gave 2 decades for the Lakers, retired, and never bothered himself with any league business. I didn't disagree with OP; it's just a funny observation with how they dealt with life after NBA.
jordon started fishing to help with him with patience for golfing, dude is insane
>jordon
Micheal Jordon
[Factually correct.](https://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/indexf.html)
It musta been a wild ride to have been MJs teammate
Heard a story where MJ was just dogging on Clyde during the Olympics to the point where other guys told him he needed to chill tf out. This led to a practice where Clyde wore two left shoes the whole time because he was too embarrassed to say he accidentally grabbed two left shoes before leaving to practice
Bill Simmons pod? Heard this too can’t remember where
It’s hilarious how people are downvoting you for asking a simple question. But yes, Bill Simmons told that exact story about MJ / Drexler in his Dame Lillard pod about 2 weeks ago. Basically word for word down to the two left shoes thing. And yeah, we all know Redditors don’t read books. They barely even read articles they sure as hell ain’t reading a whole book.
As off the rails as Pippen has gone in recent years, I think having a more low key and chill leader like Pippen made it easier lol. Practically all of Pippen's teammates talked positively about him afterward and stated how he was beloved and brought good vibes to the team. You got the tough love and respectful love put together. Then, again, all this MJ/Kobe psychology shit is probably just romanticized BS. Obviously, you want to be a competitive killer. That's necessary to win. But if MJ and Kobe weren't that good, they'd just be Jordan Poole or Dillon Brooks, where they cause trouble in the locker room for their teams.
Right on about Poole. He nearly broke Dray’s hand with his face.
Jordan Poole got punched in the face and STILL didn’t get sympathy from his coach and team and then got shipped off in the off-season. Something tells me that he wasn’t exactly innocent. Just cause the mf got punched in the face doesn’t mean he’s not causing trouble
This is just misinformation. Looney came out in support of Poole and blasted Draymond to the media. He also said Draymond would need to earn the trust of his teammates again. Steph was in support of Poole to the media when the punch happened. Poole playing poorly after obviously frustrated him but that’s independent of the Green punch. Wiggins was Poole’s best friend on the team. Reports were that the youngsters no longer trusted Draymond as their leader. Seemed like especially Kuminga didnt like it and has had problems with chemistry and Kerr since then. The whole team’s defense at the start of the season was horrible even with Draymond playing because of the punch. Kerr had chemistry problems with Poole since his sophomore year. Poole basically forced Kerr to play him by being so good in the GLeague that he had to play Poole over Wannamaker. It cannot be understated how badly Wannamaker was playing until then and Kerr did not give Poole a chance over him despite Poole playing well in all the spotty minutes that season as well as improving every game. Poole ended up being a key bench piece that same season he was getting DNPs for Wannamaker who was waived midseason. The decision to trade him is a front office and team construction one—the Warriors cannot play defense without Draymond, so for a GM its better to trade Poole if Poole and Draymond have issues. That way they can compete while Steph is still playing at a high level. Dray and Poole both have issues with Kerr but it makes it easier if one of them is off the team.
Basketball wise Poole’s play did not fit well with the Warriors system last year. When his shots are falling it looks nice but that wasn’t exactly the norm. He was a huge liability on defense and would make boneheaded plays down the stretch nearly every opportunity he had. That said he was a key player in their 2022 championship run. The punch no doubt played a role in his poor play and clearly affected his confidence.
People are really agreeing with this dude that’s blaming the victim in the situation?
Pippen has really not been able to enjoy his accomplishments as much as MJ. I think klay is the next player that will be viewed like this. If shaq and Kobe never split Kobe will probably be viewed like this
Any smart basketball fan knows Klay held it down for Steph’s ass on defense. Steph can do all the fancy moves he wants but other end of the ball he didn’t step up on mfers like Klay.
He was harsh at times and an asshole at times, but to paint this picture that Jordan was always an asshole to his teammates couldn’t be further from the truth. He was a fantastic teammate, amazing leader, and successfully pushed his teammates to be the best version of themselves, and not just by yelling at them which a lot of people here might make you believe.
MJ also gotten his team mates involved in his breakfast club, where they worked out and then had meals cooked by his chef. MJ just didn't like giving out free handouts, he was notoriously stingy when it comes to giving free autographs and giving free money to bums. It comes from his upbringing being a poor boy in North Carolina, his parents did have 5 kids so they didn't have as much money. And his competitive spirit came from battling his brothers Larry and James.
>not just by yelling at them That's fair. He also punched some of them for that extra motivational boost.
he got punched first he was just being fair
Just like his son Jimmy
Both his sons dating older women with middle eastern ancestry. Shakira's of Lebanese descent.
Does this make Shakira his DiL?
I really liked Kobe as a player, partially because I grew up with the Jordan Bulls, and Kobe with Phil just gave some of that energy. It felt like a continuation of that team. But Kobe could also be infuriating to watch. I know over time, a lot people grew to love Kobe and speak about how he really became a teacher, etc. But that was Kobe later in his career. And, in some ways, it always felt a little artificial. Older fans will recall that when Kobe first came into the league, he had a reputation of being aloof. Some said it was because he grew up in Italy. Some say it was because he grew up well-off. Others say he was too focused on basketball. Maybe it was a combination, but a lot of people say he just didn't really fit in at first. It's also pretty understandable, since he was just 18. Maybe there should be more empathy, since he basically grew into adulthood in the public eye. But I always thought it was a little cringey later in his career when he gave himself the "Black Mamba" nickname after Kill Bill came out. And who can ever forget this photoshoot: [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/388281-kobe-bryant-la-times-photo-shoot-what-was-he-thinking](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/388281-kobe-bryant-la-times-photo-shoot-what-was-he-thinking) But some of Kobe's change is probably just getting older and more mature. And there's also the benefit of becoming the leader of the team, rather than either sharing or having to defer to Shaq. Anyway, it's always interesting to read other people's perceptions of other players, and how it potentially differs by which generation you are from. Jordan had the benefit of going to college and making some friends there. I believe he joined a fraternity while in school, too. It's understandable that Jordan might have been more mature. He also didn't have to compete with someone to be recognized as the best player on the team. With all that being said, I wish Kobe was still around, and seeing the NBA on TNT guys, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan all talk about him will always bring me to tears. Fun fact, there was a period in time where a lot of players were making rap albums. Shaq is the one that everyone knows about, but there were others... [https://deadline.com/2021/05/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-rap-album-hall-of-fame-induction-1234757106/](https://deadline.com/2021/05/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-rap-album-hall-of-fame-induction-1234757106/)
Wasn't just going to college, he played for Dean Smith. Basketball aside, Smith was a huge civil rights activist and had some crazy teaching stories. One of them was shipping an assistant coach (who would be his successor) to Africa to get some perspective of one of their foreign players. That whole Dean Smith line of players and coaches is one gigantic family.
Ahh, great point!
Yeah Dean Smith is a very life changing human being, no doubt Kobe would've been incredibly influenced by him had he learned under him like MJ.
Jordan had unreal wire-y strength. He’s probably one of the strongest pound for pound players of all time. His ideal playing weight was only 213 iirc and yet he, like Phil said, had a crazy strong frame
IIRC what made him special was his laaaarge hands. That's Kawhi's case as well.
Big hands. That was his advantage. He had the makings of a varsity athlete.
"And in this house, Micheal Jordan is a hero, end of discussion!"
He was a great man. My cousin says it was Jordan who invented point shaving.
Pass me the red peppers.
Sacre bleu! Where is me mama?
\-Get your coat, we're leaving. \-I don't have a coat. \-Then get moving, goddamn it! dunno why but this scene always cracks me up
kawhi is even stronger but not as athletic as prime mike. kawhi just powered through people. but then kawhi is not as strong as prime lebron who was bulldozing everyone in his way
His one handed fake passes were awesome
Reggie Miller described him as the Shaq of shooting guards
Kevin Garnett basically said he couldn't believe how big his arms were in person the first time he saw him.
Steve Kerr jokes aside, MJ would’ve been a terrific boxer with his frame, hands, reach, footwork, and endurance.
Someone in a comment once described MJ as fusing the best of Kobe and Kawhi
Winning makes anything toxic seem like tough love.
Couldn’t agree more. These narratives are silly.
I dont expect it be smooth-sailing when the stakes are too high
Goku vs Vegeta.
Does that make lebron gohan. Both corny as hell
would have to be gohan during the cell arc or something
Nah Lebron is Freiza and every time he changes teams he gets a new form. Laker Lebron is clearly golden freiza.
Not the same, not to go nerd but Goku and Vegeta have such different personalities whereas Jordan and Kobe don’t really. Kobe wanted to be like Mike. You don’t see Goku and Vegeta emulating each other, they are their own men. The best Goku versus Vegeta comparison is Messi and Ronaldo. You’ll never find a better one. Messi is Goku; laid back, naturally talented, comes effortlessly, kind of awkward, and the protagonist of soccer. Vegeta is Ronaldo; harder worker, more serious, envious of Goku/Messi, always playing catchup and in the eyes of most, and in reality, is a second to Goku/Messi.
Random but I have a funny Kobe story. I was at Disneyland, this was maybe a year before he passed or so. My fiancé and I were walking through Star Wars land behind some kids who were obviously basketball fans. We walked behind them for about 5 minutes and during the entire time they were debating about GOATs and all that and one of the kids said something hella immature, like "Kobe was ass, bro" obviously just being a little kid and all that. Anyways, we turn the corner into another part of the park and who is walking towards but Kobe himself, getting escorted through the park with his daughter on his shoulders. The kid who just said "Kobe was ass" dropped to his knees quite literally and was in utter disbelief. Kobe said something to the affect of "have a good day, gentlemen" and kept walking. Obviously just a small little interaction but I always thought that was funny.
this was December 2019 or 2018 right? i was at Disney same time and saw Kobe there too with his family
It didn’t help but kobe was already a polarizing player way before the rape saga.
Phil Jackson: Michael was a bit more outgoing than Kobe Reddit: Phil Jackson hates kobe
we posting news articles from 2013? Slow offseason
Better than boring ass trade rumors
But where's dame going??!??!!1?1!1?1!
Everybody should listen to what Tim Grover has to say about Kobe and MJ, both had crazy obsession with winning. Both had crazy work ethics. MJ would often go play rounds of golf, or gamble, then sleep for a few hours, workout and then play games and still end up dropping 30 a night. MJ had a crazy sleep schedule, where he was refreshed after like 3 hours of sleep. Kobe was more dedicated to basketball and he had a single track mind. You don't get up at 4AM in the morning to bike in the desert. And Kobe also had like a crazy sleep schedule as well, like 4 hours per day when you're in the NBA is insane. I appreciate both legends for what kind of work they are doing to get where they are.
Its so strange how Kobe and MJ have followed opposite paths in the public opinion. MJ was universally loved and people are now starting to say actually "hes a bit of a ***". And Kobe was pretty unpopular at one point and over the years people have come to appreciate him on and off the court.
I mean there’s the whole rape thing
Most people love Kobe's game too much to care that he raped someone. EDIT: Examples below.
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I personally never see people say that on here. Maybe it gets buried at the bottom of the thread. From my experience anytime someone brings up the rape it gets upvoted with like zero replies
People hate Kobe because of the whole rape thing. MJ may have been an ass but he was hardly as hated as Kobe. I don't think these trajectories will change. The people who hate Kobe for the rape will continue to hate him.
I couldn’t stand Kobe, and that was before the rape thing. Dude was extremely easy to basketball hate to many different fan bases. A ball hog who forced out one of the greatest players of all time and always seemed grumpy? It wasn’t hard.
If MJ dies in a chopper crash tomorrow, trust me, the lovefest will be on
In all seriousness...it's very hard to hate a dead person. Live long enough as a hero, and you just might become the villain.
Nah Kobe had already become widely beloved by the time he died. He once was the villain, and lived long enough to somehow rehabilitate that image before he passed
Kobe after he tore his Achilles when lakers started rebuilding and tanking was when Kobe was focused more on his writing and movies and his daughters basketball. Started training guys from the nba and kinda just moved on mentally from playing basketball to next step in life. Won a Oscar right away too
What is this revisionist BS and how is it upvoted? He was already well loved before he passed. 2008 Olympic team he was pretty much the most beloved sportsman around the world aside from Ronaldinho.
Yeah no, Kobe is still polarizing but obviously popular, but MJ is still unanimously worshipped and Last Dance really opened him up to a new generation.
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if you watch the last dance his charm with people comes through very clearly.
Jordan was better than Kobe, thats the difference
It is futile to keep comparing players to MJ. Sports media should abandon this topic. Compare equals, yes. But unequals, no.
What about how Michael led the NBA in scoring in all 11 full years he played with the Bulls?
MJ oozed rizz
Jordan was the ultimate winner and had the talent to back it up on the court.
Phil: “Michael also never raped anyone, so there’s that.”
Arena staff are real fun to be around, in my experience. My gf lost her phone in the stadium when we went last and so we got to go into the belly of target center as all the people were clocking out. Retrieved the phone, rode up an elevator with like 20 workers, they were cracking jokes with me like they’ve known me for years. One guy mentioned they should take us onto the court for fun. I laughed, thinking it was a joke. To this day I’m still certain they were serious and I missed an opportunity