Reminds me of melo. He always had lebron and one other ahead of him. Then around 2011+, Durant came out and boom, pushes melo to 4th best pf, even though melo was improving and hitting peaks.
The real reason he has 0 is the spurs always tried to endorse Bowen as the chief defender of the team.
He was named to 8 all defense teams including 5 firsts because of it. The Spurs were happy to push Duncan as their MVP candidate but Bowen was always pushed as our defensive anchor, even though it was really Timmy, so they always split votes.
Which should tell you enough about how silly the voting is.
I have to “push” a candidate, and the voters don’t go and do their research besides look at some advanced stats
When people realize the talking heads of today are just the newspaper Op-eds of yesterday awards and all that seem much more clear.
There was no way to watch everyone’s games. There was no YouTube, all you got were box scores and narratives driven by teams mouthpieces and the media.
The Music Industry is a whole other shit show.
Look at album sales. If I released 15 songs on 1 album/vinyl and sold 10 million copies, it is counted the same as someone releasing:
* 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song as a Target exclusive red colored vinyl
* 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song as a Wal-Mart exclusive
* 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song and a special black out cover
* 10 Main songs with 2 bonus songs, and it is a pink vinyl
And that artist's 3 Million Fans buying all 4 versions, given them 12 million copies sold.
Tbf boards of Canada isn’t a pop group but I get what ur saying
There’s a severe lack of musical knowledge and literacy, but that has always been a thing
Let me add to that: all of these voters have day jobs that they have to do. Unless they're already doing extensive analysis, they don't have the time to research the way we all would like them to. On some level, relying on narratives is all you really have.
**Edit to add**: I’m done arguing with chuds, so I’m going to the very basic math for you.
There are 1,230 NBA games per season. If you spend one hour watching each (which is an abbreviated game, by the way), it would take 24.6 50-hour work weeks.
The season takes place over roughly 6 months. That is roughly 24 weeks.
**And this is not anyone’s sole job or even close to it**
This is how voting on most things is.
Oscar winners, Presidential candidates, prom Queen, school board head, shareholder votes. Most people do not sit in a windowless room to block out all influences and research or think deeply on these things.
We like to think that groups of people can make fair objective choices but our species evolved to mimic and follow other people. Our emotions get swayed and than our analysis follows.
No one is watching every teams game. No one is watching tape specifically to judge who their DPOY is. It's always going to be stats and narrative driven.
Man, I remember when Duncan was old and wasn’t putting up the counting stats he once did, but all indications and advanced analytics showed he was still an elite defender and basically the defensive system for the Spurs.
Bruce Bowen changed the game. He’s the real reason that the landing space rule for shooters was made. The Zaza/Kawhi play was just the straw that broke the camels back in a high attention and pressure moment.
Usually "changed the game" is a huge honor, a mark of achievement, but in Bowen's case a mark of shame.
What sucks is IIRC Bowen still thinks he didn't do anything wrong and defends himself to this day.
I was embarassed at how Pop went after Zaza after the Kawhi incident when he was happy to shield Bruce Bowen when he was trying to injure players in the league.
Bowen use to try to get under Kobe’s feet all the time. Go watch tape on Bowen guarding a guy taking a jumper .
One of the dirtiest players of all time
I do not recall people saying Bruce Bowen was the defensive anchor of the Spurs, that was always clearly Duncan. Bowen was just a good (and dirty) perimeter defender.
I will always maintain that Pippen is the most underrated modern NBA player. Obviously Jordan was an All-NBA defender, but Pippen took so much off his plate on that end. I mean he was singlehandedly blowing up Stockton/Malone pick and rolls in the Finals, nobody did that.
In my experiences, the only time Pippen really gets underrated is whenever Jordan vs Bron arguments come up. Not saying they all do it of course, but there's always been a contingent of Jordan diehards that are happy to minimize Pip (and the rest of the supporting cast) to hype up MJ more
Outside of that vacuum, I think he's rated just fine given what he did, if not a little generously
It's because on the other end of the spectrum you have people claiming that LeBron did everything on his own and was surrounded by bums his entire career. Very little objectivity to be had in these discussions
Right - if you're going to give Pippen his flowers then you better give DWade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and AD theirs too.
Neither did it alone. 8.5 years of having Pippen alongside MJ, with 4 years of Bosh/Wade, 3 years of Irving, 4 of Love (3 together), and 5+ years of AD.
Pippen is not even close to the most underrated all time. He's rated extremely highly all time, and is probably more famous and talked about than a few players that were actually better than him in the 90s.
Draymond's back getting fucked ruined the entire DPOY race that year. Nobody was sure of who to vote for so the entire award race was way too narrative driven.
To think even Mikal Bridges was that close to winning a DPOY is wild to think about.
Notable players who finished in the top 10 in the past several years: Josh Smith (2nd!), Larry Sanders, Michael Kidd Gilchrist, Andre Drummond, Robert Covington, Lamarcus Aldridge, 38 year old Grant Hill.
LaMarcus was honestly an incredible defender around 2017-18. The year Kawhi was out the entire year, we had the third best DRTG in the league with LaMarcus being by far the most important defender on the team.
Also in 2016, the spurs had by far the best DRTG in the league. 99 for the spurs vs 101.4 for the second best defense hawks team. That was the first year the spurs had LaMarcus and Duncan was visibly much slower after an injury around all star break that year. The spurs had the second best DRTG at 102 the year before.
Crazy part is even Timelord missed 21 games.
I think it should've been between Gobert or JJJ tbh. Or even Bam but he also missed 26 games.
And tbh I wouldn't have been mad about Smart winning DPOY if he didn't become a candidate literally overnight.
It was very much Rob getting hurt that led to Smart getting DPOY since Bill Simmons got on his "The best defense should get DPOY" even tho the Celtics barely edged out the Suns and Warriors at least according to DEF RTG. Also everyone was tired of Rudy winning it every year.
Yeah it was Rudy fatigue, and then Rob Williams got hurt so there wasn't any other clear-cut leader... and then the "a guard hasn't won since GP" and "defensive leader of the best defense" narrative took over for Smart
Marcus is a legitimately great defender. Is he head and shoulders above every other great defender? No. But this isn’t the outrageous award win you and others want to believe it is.
Very difficult question because it’s not as easy as MVP to look back at historically but here are some candidates:
2005: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs led league in defensive rating, 3 in defensive win shares, 3.3 stocks, 2nd seed
2006: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs led league in defensive rating, 1 in defensive win shares, 2.9 stocks, 1st seed
2007: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs second in defensive rating, 1 in defensive win shares, 3.4 stocks, 3rd seed
2013: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs third in defensive rating, 3 in defensive win shares, 3.4 stocks, 2nd seed
What’s more shocking than no DPOY is that he was never even runner up.
Was actually 3.2 stocks in 2007
Ben Wallace had 3.8 and 4.0 in '05 and '06
Camby had 4.4 stocks in '07
So Duncan was fairly behind in stocks in those three years, though of course stocks are not everything.
People are using the exact same argument *against* Wemby this year for DPOY.
"Well, Duncan is on the best team, but Camby had higher stocks."
Now it's,
"Well, Wemby has higher stocks, but Gobert is on a better team."
Weird how that narrative flips. It's almost like there's absolutely no consistent criteria for DPOY. I'm fine with Gobert winning it, I just think it's ridiculous that one year's leading criteria becomes much less important in another season.
DPOY selections may not always be accurate, but Davis simply hasn't had a better defensive season than Gobert. He doesn't deserve the award this year, he wasn't the best defensive player in the league.
That said, he should be top 3 in voting.
I think the stigma that is gonna stick with AD for the rest of his career is the Street Clothes nickname and being made of glass. No matter how many games per season he plays for the rest of his career
Kawhi gets a ton of hate for his load management and injuries, what are you on about? PG also literally shattered his leg on really poor luck, hard to hold that against him.
Kawhi I get because he's proven he's good enough to carry people over the finish line if he's healthy. I really don't understand the PG adoration. He's good, he's not that great and definitely doesn't deserve the level of greatness treatment he gets. Some players even saying he's their goat when there is like 20 players better than him in the league right now, even some out of their prime are still better like Curry and Bron.
Paul George reminds me of TMac with better defense, as far as wanting to be emulated. Younger players view him as their GOAT because his game is aesthetically pleasing, he's relatively efficient and a great-to-elite defender... but falls to injury at the worst times. I'd understand why someone coming up would want to model their game after him.
I mean paul george was and still somewhat is the quintessential two way player that can do everything and ontop that a little bit of playmaking. Id imagine most people if they were to create a perfectly one balanced player in 2k, it would be closer to him than someone like embiid.
I think his flaws are just harder to see, frankly.
He's not really a playmaker; while he hits a nice pass once in awhile, he's also always been more turnover prone than you'd expect given his usage and the nature of his game.
He's also pretty purely a jump shooter. He's got great lateral quickness that allows him to always create space for his jump shot, but his offense goes through serious cold periods because he's never been a guy than can get to the rim consistently.
"PG adoration"
What? He's frequently meme'd for some of his poor playoff performances, and he lost some of his momentum as a player after destroying his leg.
Ya'll also act like people don't consistently (and justifiably) talk about Kawhi's lack of availability. It's like the biggest talking point you'll have on Kawhi because it's clear he's an all time on the court talent, but the "on the court" part just doesn't happen enough.
I feel like guys who are coaxing their bodies to perform through chronic conditions tend to get more leeway from fans and media than guys who just always seem to get banged up.
He played 45 minutes *in Denver* and did about as well on Jokic as you can. He is also one of the few bigs who reliably closes out on 3s. It's pretty terrible that he isn't at least top 3.
And since you should have to give a name when you complain about a snub, he should be in over Bam, much as I hate to say it.
DAJ minutes actually weren’t terrible until AD just started cooking him left and right. Those extra 5 minutes of AD on the court didn’t result in enough points to offset AD’s usage. That said, Wood would probably cook DAJ enough to force more minutes on Jokic
You know what would really help with this? An Alex Caruso type at the POA, or a KCP type chasing off ball. Can you imagine how much better the team defense (and AD by extension) would look with just one of those types? The mind boggles at the idea of both…
Especially since we didn't have to choose between the two. We had Caruso's bird rights, and could easily have flipped him for a pick down the line instead of letting him walk for free.
Caruso at least wound up exiled to the irrelevancy of a perennial east play-in loser, the Westbrook trade not only lost you KCP but made him available to be snapped up by a conference rival
Yeah I think Kuzma has lost a little shine in Washington in a way that Caruso hasn’t over in Chicago (advanced stats are still crazy for Caruso)
But Lakers could probably use him too
He plays great defensive and shroud have been in the running. Gobert teaches defense, he got Finch to switch where we have our bench at the end of the game, so the Wolves are on offense at the end of the game where the bench sits. Gobert told Finch, at the end of the game I'll coach the defense, you can coach on the offensive side.
lol for real, we'd run through a brick wall for Rudy
He got me out here making video rebuttals 😭 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0uAzXcIHho&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0uAzXcIHho&t=5s)
Lol amazing 🙌 we made the same compilations during his Utah years. It’s just people chose not to believe us because it’s Utah. Super glad in Minny at least they actually paid attention and saw his impact this year when healthy.
I’m not even from Utah but I’m telling ya there’s levels to the small market treatment and it feels like Minnesota may as well be Miami with how fans will collectively just hive mind against our players and teams lol. Even some Wolves fans will say like, that slander during his prime years with Utah was actually valid and he’s gotten so much better here 🙄
Yeah. Their whole defense is try to push the other team into the paint, let AD deal with it, and pray that the other team misses the wide open 3s on the kickout passes.
AD is one of the best couple two way star centers of the last 25 years. That said, the Lakers shipped almost 118ppg in the regular season and only 1.5 less points per 100 possessions (65th %tile) with him on the floor. Is that all on him? Absolutely not, obviously - he plays with DeAngelo Russell. But it’s not an indicator that he *is still* (he was) this otherworldly defensive anchor, IMO.
Again, not all on him and he had some great defensive possessions against Denver - his size and defensive instinct 1v1 on Jokic backing down is brilliant - but he is not participating in good team defense in multiple instances on the tape ([the guy is a bit wild but he makes mostly salient points](https://youtu.be/tWvvIIJE_CA?si=KebdW4xWqOyx18GU&t=1)).
If only anyone on the internet was capable of talking about the Lakers without losing their goddamn mind.
Gobert - clear defensive anchor on best defensive team. Historically that gets you DPOY
Wemby - gaudy numbers, including wild on/off defensive rating splits
And AD probaly finished with like 10% less votes than Bam to be one of the three finalists. Who cares! You can appreicate AD's greatness without the award
AD and Lakers are VICTIMS of big media markets Twolves and Spurs. It’s clear if you don’t go to one of the NBAs darling teams you will not even receive a single vote for DPOY
This is in-line with the Athletic's anonymous player survey. He isn't mentioned once as one of the top defenders, but is mentioned in the "overrated" section. He is the entire team's defense!
There will probably be some close French on French violence runs in the next few years. But Gobert being Gobert and Wemby rising up will really lock down the awards.
I don't blame him tbh, the awards are so narrative-driven and now he'll be discussed by sportswriters. It shouldn't work that way just like lack of postseason success shouldn't seep into MVP conversations but he is working within the actual not ideal world
Watching him get cooked (albeit by incredible offensive talents) in the last four minutes of Game 2 followed by having a game winner made on him as he stumbled into the opposing teams bench and they celebrated all around him makes this pretty funny in hindsight
The Smart DPOY annoys me to this day. Dude was like +30000, then went to the highest odds in ONE DAY
Must’ve been a coincidence that was the same day the Celtics announced Rob Williams was out for a while…
Smart winning DPOY is the least deserving major award that will ever be given out for the rest of North American sports history.
A complete farce of a win. He wasn't 1 on his team or top 15 in the league. Just a complete joke.
The best regular season defender in the NBA is Rudy. I’m not sure exactly why we have to go through this every time another player gets in their feels.
It sucks, but much like playing in the eastern conference during LeBron’s prime, it’s just bad luck for Davis that he plays during this era. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah, it’s not egregious that he has not won DPotY when Gobert has been so much better. It’s egregious that he is not a finalist over Bam.
He probably could have won it over Smart or Jaren Jackson Jr. if he was healthier the past two years, but this year it is Gobert’s award.
The problem is that ADs defense lends much better to the playoffs than it does the regular season.
Draymond Green only won 1 DPOY but was the best defender in the playoffs consistently. 2nd in voting twice, but still.
Hes right, he should be in the top 3 for sure. And with Wemby about to blow up and win the next 10 it will be hard for AD to grab one
He’s absolutely right and making fair points but for upvotes I’m going to say he cried and campaigned his way to any future awards
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Reminds me of melo. He always had lebron and one other ahead of him. Then around 2011+, Durant came out and boom, pushes melo to 4th best pf, even though melo was improving and hitting peaks.
AD is better defensively then melo is as a star overall
If you want further indication that DPOY is a poorly selected award, one of the greatest team defenders of all time, Tim Duncan, has 0.
The real reason he has 0 is the spurs always tried to endorse Bowen as the chief defender of the team. He was named to 8 all defense teams including 5 firsts because of it. The Spurs were happy to push Duncan as their MVP candidate but Bowen was always pushed as our defensive anchor, even though it was really Timmy, so they always split votes.
Which should tell you enough about how silly the voting is. I have to “push” a candidate, and the voters don’t go and do their research besides look at some advanced stats
When people realize the talking heads of today are just the newspaper Op-eds of yesterday awards and all that seem much more clear. There was no way to watch everyone’s games. There was no YouTube, all you got were box scores and narratives driven by teams mouthpieces and the media.
Every award show is just a popularity contest. Basketball to music to movies. Every now and then you get a Bon Iver winning best new artist.
I love it when the best new artist Grammy goes to someone who already has three albums out or something like that.
The Music Industry is a whole other shit show. Look at album sales. If I released 15 songs on 1 album/vinyl and sold 10 million copies, it is counted the same as someone releasing: * 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song as a Target exclusive red colored vinyl * 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song as a Wal-Mart exclusive * 10 Main songs with 1 bonus song and a special black out cover * 10 Main songs with 2 bonus songs, and it is a pink vinyl And that artist's 3 Million Fans buying all 4 versions, given them 12 million copies sold.
Look most Grammy voters don’t even know who boards of Canada are how can we really take any of these pop writers seriously
Tbf boards of Canada isn’t a pop group but I get what ur saying There’s a severe lack of musical knowledge and literacy, but that has always been a thing
Let me add to that: all of these voters have day jobs that they have to do. Unless they're already doing extensive analysis, they don't have the time to research the way we all would like them to. On some level, relying on narratives is all you really have. **Edit to add**: I’m done arguing with chuds, so I’m going to the very basic math for you. There are 1,230 NBA games per season. If you spend one hour watching each (which is an abbreviated game, by the way), it would take 24.6 50-hour work weeks. The season takes place over roughly 6 months. That is roughly 24 weeks. **And this is not anyone’s sole job or even close to it**
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This is how voting on most things is. Oscar winners, Presidential candidates, prom Queen, school board head, shareholder votes. Most people do not sit in a windowless room to block out all influences and research or think deeply on these things. We like to think that groups of people can make fair objective choices but our species evolved to mimic and follow other people. Our emotions get swayed and than our analysis follows.
No one is watching every teams game. No one is watching tape specifically to judge who their DPOY is. It's always going to be stats and narrative driven.
Man, I remember when Duncan was old and wasn’t putting up the counting stats he once did, but all indications and advanced analytics showed he was still an elite defender and basically the defensive system for the Spurs.
Bruce Bowen changed the game. He’s the real reason that the landing space rule for shooters was made. The Zaza/Kawhi play was just the straw that broke the camels back in a high attention and pressure moment.
Usually "changed the game" is a huge honor, a mark of achievement, but in Bowen's case a mark of shame. What sucks is IIRC Bowen still thinks he didn't do anything wrong and defends himself to this day.
I was embarassed at how Pop went after Zaza after the Kawhi incident when he was happy to shield Bruce Bowen when he was trying to injure players in the league.
I need to find the video from Inside where they edited Bowen into Edward Scissorhands. 🤌🏾
It’s like saying “asbestos really changed the construction business.”
Bowen use to try to get under Kobe’s feet all the time. Go watch tape on Bowen guarding a guy taking a jumper . One of the dirtiest players of all time
Bowen was such a little shit
So hilarious how the Spurs got a reputation for being classy in the 2010s given how Bowen used to play.
To be fair he wasn’t on the team then
Bowen didn’t play in the 2010s for the spurs so
I never understood that. You can be both MVP + DPOY and Timmy certainly deserved it
Hakeem did it
Yeah so did the GOAT
Jordan Poole has never won an MVP
Yet.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing all these Michael/Poole GOAT arguments on this sub.
LeBron James Harden > Carmelo Anthony Davis > Michael Jordan Poole
I do not recall people saying Bruce Bowen was the defensive anchor of the Spurs, that was always clearly Duncan. Bowen was just a good (and dirty) perimeter defender.
Since Bowen couldn't shoot (except set corner 3's), they had to find some billing for him.
Not “people” in general, The Spurs org and San Antonio media specifically actively pushed him for the award in the 2000s.
Scottie Pippen as well. He’s a better defender than MJ. Arguably a top 5 defender but no DPOY’s.
I will always maintain that Pippen is the most underrated modern NBA player. Obviously Jordan was an All-NBA defender, but Pippen took so much off his plate on that end. I mean he was singlehandedly blowing up Stockton/Malone pick and rolls in the Finals, nobody did that.
I mean, Pippen is pretty widely considered a top 30-50 player all time. I don’t think he’s remotely underrated.
In my experiences, the only time Pippen really gets underrated is whenever Jordan vs Bron arguments come up. Not saying they all do it of course, but there's always been a contingent of Jordan diehards that are happy to minimize Pip (and the rest of the supporting cast) to hype up MJ more Outside of that vacuum, I think he's rated just fine given what he did, if not a little generously
It's because on the other end of the spectrum you have people claiming that LeBron did everything on his own and was surrounded by bums his entire career. Very little objectivity to be had in these discussions
Right - if you're going to give Pippen his flowers then you better give DWade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and AD theirs too. Neither did it alone. 8.5 years of having Pippen alongside MJ, with 4 years of Bosh/Wade, 3 years of Irving, 4 of Love (3 together), and 5+ years of AD.
Pippen is not even close to the most underrated all time. He's rated extremely highly all time, and is probably more famous and talked about than a few players that were actually better than him in the 90s.
Agreed while Marcus smart has 1 lmao
Draymond's back getting fucked ruined the entire DPOY race that year. Nobody was sure of who to vote for so the entire award race was way too narrative driven. To think even Mikal Bridges was that close to winning a DPOY is wild to think about.
Notable players who finished in the top 10 in the past several years: Josh Smith (2nd!), Larry Sanders, Michael Kidd Gilchrist, Andre Drummond, Robert Covington, Lamarcus Aldridge, 38 year old Grant Hill.
Josh Smith was actually a good defender though in Atlanta.
Him and kirilenko were always a 5x5 threat
So was MKG. He was literally only in the league for his defense
Josh Smith was a stock machine in Atlanta
He was like a walking 5x5 threat for a minute
LaMarcus was honestly an incredible defender around 2017-18. The year Kawhi was out the entire year, we had the third best DRTG in the league with LaMarcus being by far the most important defender on the team. Also in 2016, the spurs had by far the best DRTG in the league. 99 for the spurs vs 101.4 for the second best defense hawks team. That was the first year the spurs had LaMarcus and Duncan was visibly much slower after an injury around all star break that year. The spurs had the second best DRTG at 102 the year before.
RoCo was so nice
I'm not surprised by Aldridge at all tbh.
I know Josh smith became a meme player the second he left Atlanta but he was a legit monster defender while he was there.
MKG was an incredible defender before his injuries piled up.
RoCo was a fantastic defender for a solid stretch of his career. He could switch and guard multiple positions effectively.
Wasn't LARRY SANDERS an unbelievably good shotblocker?
Gilchrist was actually insane for like a year or two on defense so it's not that crazy.
I would have given it to Rob Williams instead of Smart that year
Crazy part is even Timelord missed 21 games. I think it should've been between Gobert or JJJ tbh. Or even Bam but he also missed 26 games. And tbh I wouldn't have been mad about Smart winning DPOY if he didn't become a candidate literally overnight.
It was very much Rob getting hurt that led to Smart getting DPOY since Bill Simmons got on his "The best defense should get DPOY" even tho the Celtics barely edged out the Suns and Warriors at least according to DEF RTG. Also everyone was tired of Rudy winning it every year.
Yeah it was Rudy fatigue, and then Rob Williams got hurt so there wasn't any other clear-cut leader... and then the "a guard hasn't won since GP" and "defensive leader of the best defense" narrative took over for Smart
Ad played 40 games the season smart won it
Two Marcus's have a DPOY, and both of em people have a problem with interestingly enough
In fairness Draymond would have ran away with it without injury. Whenever he was healthy the Warriors were historic on D.
Marcus is a legitimately great defender. Is he head and shoulders above every other great defender? No. But this isn’t the outrageous award win you and others want to believe it is.
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If you do shares for players who never won the award he finishes 2nd After Bowen (the whole point of my response to this thread elsewhere)
Which year(s) should he have won that he didn't?
Very difficult question because it’s not as easy as MVP to look back at historically but here are some candidates: 2005: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs led league in defensive rating, 3 in defensive win shares, 3.3 stocks, 2nd seed 2006: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs led league in defensive rating, 1 in defensive win shares, 2.9 stocks, 1st seed 2007: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs second in defensive rating, 1 in defensive win shares, 3.4 stocks, 3rd seed 2013: 1 in defensive rating, Spurs third in defensive rating, 3 in defensive win shares, 3.4 stocks, 2nd seed What’s more shocking than no DPOY is that he was never even runner up.
Was actually 3.2 stocks in 2007 Ben Wallace had 3.8 and 4.0 in '05 and '06 Camby had 4.4 stocks in '07 So Duncan was fairly behind in stocks in those three years, though of course stocks are not everything.
People are using the exact same argument *against* Wemby this year for DPOY. "Well, Duncan is on the best team, but Camby had higher stocks." Now it's, "Well, Wemby has higher stocks, but Gobert is on a better team." Weird how that narrative flips. It's almost like there's absolutely no consistent criteria for DPOY. I'm fine with Gobert winning it, I just think it's ridiculous that one year's leading criteria becomes much less important in another season.
I don’t think defensive rating and win shares existed back then
Probably the Camby year but I think him and Bruce ended up splitting a lot of the votes.
Bowen was actually 2nd in DPOY voting and Duncan 3rd that season. Duncan and Bowen's combined share were still less than Camby's.
Marc Gasol got DPOY and didn't make 1st Team All-Defensive Team
He *should* have made 1st team though. Let’s not discredit his DPOY because he got snubbed elsewhere.
DPOY selections may not always be accurate, but Davis simply hasn't had a better defensive season than Gobert. He doesn't deserve the award this year, he wasn't the best defensive player in the league. That said, he should be top 3 in voting.
It's the same thing with duncan, was he better than Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard when they won 7 combined during Duncans prime
That is just blasphemy and a crime . Have always said that
Didn't even get any votes for best defender in the Athletic player polll
Got more votes for being overrated than for best defender.. insane
I think the stigma that is gonna stick with AD for the rest of his career is the Street Clothes nickname and being made of glass. No matter how many games per season he plays for the rest of his career
Can't believe Kawhi and PG get much less hate than that
They get plenty of heat it's just that the Lakers are the face of the league and get talked about ad nauseum.
AD nauseum
LeMotion Sickness
New nickname surfaced
People were criticising and making fun of AD way before he got to the Lakers.
Kawhi gets a ton of hate for his load management and injuries, what are you on about? PG also literally shattered his leg on really poor luck, hard to hold that against him.
Kawhi I get because he's proven he's good enough to carry people over the finish line if he's healthy. I really don't understand the PG adoration. He's good, he's not that great and definitely doesn't deserve the level of greatness treatment he gets. Some players even saying he's their goat when there is like 20 players better than him in the league right now, even some out of their prime are still better like Curry and Bron.
Paul George reminds me of TMac with better defense, as far as wanting to be emulated. Younger players view him as their GOAT because his game is aesthetically pleasing, he's relatively efficient and a great-to-elite defender... but falls to injury at the worst times. I'd understand why someone coming up would want to model their game after him.
I mean paul george was and still somewhat is the quintessential two way player that can do everything and ontop that a little bit of playmaking. Id imagine most people if they were to create a perfectly one balanced player in 2k, it would be closer to him than someone like embiid.
I think his flaws are just harder to see, frankly. He's not really a playmaker; while he hits a nice pass once in awhile, he's also always been more turnover prone than you'd expect given his usage and the nature of his game. He's also pretty purely a jump shooter. He's got great lateral quickness that allows him to always create space for his jump shot, but his offense goes through serious cold periods because he's never been a guy than can get to the rim consistently.
"PG adoration" What? He's frequently meme'd for some of his poor playoff performances, and he lost some of his momentum as a player after destroying his leg. Ya'll also act like people don't consistently (and justifiably) talk about Kawhi's lack of availability. It's like the biggest talking point you'll have on Kawhi because it's clear he's an all time on the court talent, but the "on the court" part just doesn't happen enough.
I feel like guys who are coaxing their bodies to perform through chronic conditions tend to get more leeway from fans and media than guys who just always seem to get banged up.
Not quite true. He get exactly one vote, making him tied for 16th.
Fucking Isaac Okoro was over him 😂 No hate to Okoro, but that's crazy.
He even sounds defensive in that interview. He deserves the award.
Defense on the court, defense off the court. Man is all about defense
This made me love AD more haha
He played 45 minutes *in Denver* and did about as well on Jokic as you can. He is also one of the few bigs who reliably closes out on 3s. It's pretty terrible that he isn't at least top 3. And since you should have to give a name when you complain about a snub, he should be in over Bam, much as I hate to say it.
Crazy thing is he might be playing 45 mins for the rest of the series but then again wood coming back gives him breaks
The only time AD should come out the game is when Jokic does. If Jokic is on the court, you have to have AD on.
That’s what I’m saying too but hey man it makes sense if you want to take advantage of the non jokic mins but stilln
“Quick let’s win while the joker is sitting!” AG/KCP/JM/MPJ: “hold my beer”
Problem is Jokic can play the entire 48 minutes if he needs to.
Do you really want to give AD a break when Jokic starts cooking Wood and Hayes
I mean we can’t just play him 48 minutes. What do u want us to do
No. AD’s minutes have to mirror Jokic’s
DAJ minutes actually weren’t terrible until AD just started cooking him left and right. Those extra 5 minutes of AD on the court didn’t result in enough points to offset AD’s usage. That said, Wood would probably cook DAJ enough to force more minutes on Jokic
The idea should be to let Bron cook as much as he can when Jokic is off. Keep him out when Jokic is out. It's only a few minutes a game anyway.
Last year JJJ won it, and during Lakers-Memphis series it was evidently clear that one was a different level of defender compared to the other.
Blocks and steals award lol
JJJ is a mirage
He’s right, despite it not feeling like that against Denver. If anybody hasn’t watched the Lakers, AD is literally Darvin Ham’s defensive scheme.
He played great defense against Denver. It’s just that they’re so great on offense it didn’t matter
You know what would really help with this? An Alex Caruso type at the POA, or a KCP type chasing off ball. Can you imagine how much better the team defense (and AD by extension) would look with just one of those types? The mind boggles at the idea of both…
Imagine picking THT over Caruso smh
I shudder at the thought
This was the biggest sin
Especially since we didn't have to choose between the two. We had Caruso's bird rights, and could easily have flipped him for a pick down the line instead of letting him walk for free.
I think the Westbrook trade was worse but both set back the team tremendously
Caruso at least wound up exiled to the irrelevancy of a perennial east play-in loser, the Westbrook trade not only lost you KCP but made him available to be snapped up by a conference rival
Caruso and kcp are exactly what this lakers team are missing but idk why kuzma isn't talked about more. Dude why did they blow up that team lmao
Yeah I think Kuzma has lost a little shine in Washington in a way that Caruso hasn’t over in Chicago (advanced stats are still crazy for Caruso) But Lakers could probably use him too
THT is only 20 with a 8 foot wingspan though. He can clip his own toenails standing up.
If only Caruso had signed with Klutch
Someone should photoshop them into a lakers jersey. Imagine that team
He plays great defensive and shroud have been in the running. Gobert teaches defense, he got Finch to switch where we have our bench at the end of the game, so the Wolves are on offense at the end of the game where the bench sits. Gobert told Finch, at the end of the game I'll coach the defense, you can coach on the offensive side.
Gobert designed the Wolves defence in a cave. KAT, Naz Reid and Ant magically had their best defensive seasons with Rudy.
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS
https://i.redd.it/pg1ju7welc4c1.jpg
*AWOOOOs through tears*
lol for real, we'd run through a brick wall for Rudy He got me out here making video rebuttals 😭 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0uAzXcIHho&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0uAzXcIHho&t=5s)
Lol amazing 🙌 we made the same compilations during his Utah years. It’s just people chose not to believe us because it’s Utah. Super glad in Minny at least they actually paid attention and saw his impact this year when healthy. I’m not even from Utah but I’m telling ya there’s levels to the small market treatment and it feels like Minnesota may as well be Miami with how fans will collectively just hive mind against our players and teams lol. Even some Wolves fans will say like, that slander during his prime years with Utah was actually valid and he’s gotten so much better here 🙄
Yeah. Their whole defense is try to push the other team into the paint, let AD deal with it, and pray that the other team misses the wide open 3s on the kickout passes.
AD is the Lakers defense and has been for awhile
AD is one of the best couple two way star centers of the last 25 years. That said, the Lakers shipped almost 118ppg in the regular season and only 1.5 less points per 100 possessions (65th %tile) with him on the floor. Is that all on him? Absolutely not, obviously - he plays with DeAngelo Russell. But it’s not an indicator that he *is still* (he was) this otherworldly defensive anchor, IMO. Again, not all on him and he had some great defensive possessions against Denver - his size and defensive instinct 1v1 on Jokic backing down is brilliant - but he is not participating in good team defense in multiple instances on the tape ([the guy is a bit wild but he makes mostly salient points](https://youtu.be/tWvvIIJE_CA?si=KebdW4xWqOyx18GU&t=1)).
AD is a defensive menace. Don’t worry AD, we know how good you are.
This all reminds me of how Rudy was slandered after the Jazz had defensive issues in the playoffs. Except,instead of slander, it's ignorance.
Big timberwolves media strikes again. SMFH
If only anyone on the internet was capable of talking about the Lakers without losing their goddamn mind. Gobert - clear defensive anchor on best defensive team. Historically that gets you DPOY Wemby - gaudy numbers, including wild on/off defensive rating splits And AD probaly finished with like 10% less votes than Bam to be one of the three finalists. Who cares! You can appreicate AD's greatness without the award
AD and Lakers are VICTIMS of big media markets Twolves and Spurs. It’s clear if you don’t go to one of the NBAs darling teams you will not even receive a single vote for DPOY
This is in-line with the Athletic's anonymous player survey. He isn't mentioned once as one of the top defenders, but is mentioned in the "overrated" section. He is the entire team's defense!
What does that tell you?
Players are just podcast boys who don't watch basketball
Uh oh
This DPOY is the last one for a non-Wembanyama for at least the next 5 years. It's too late bro.
There will probably be some close French on French violence runs in the next few years. But Gobert being Gobert and Wemby rising up will really lock down the awards.
League darling Rudy Gobert is about to win yet again smh
only because he sends fruit baskets to media members during ASB
Apparently this is a hot take here, but Gobert has been a better defender than AD this year
and its not even that close
He should have won in 2020 when Lakers were the 1 seed
This post gonna get spicy now.
This quote did not age well 😂😂😂
AD doing the Embiid
I don't blame him tbh, the awards are so narrative-driven and now he'll be discussed by sportswriters. It shouldn't work that way just like lack of postseason success shouldn't seep into MVP conversations but he is working within the actual not ideal world
When AD does it, it’s flirting, when Embiid does it it’s sexual harassment.
Ahh yes, beloved superstar AD lmao
Saying the league doesn’t like him because he’s not gonna win DPOY over universally loved Rudy Gobert is funny as hell
It’s the fact he got no votes. He’s not even in the top 3
While being on the most popular team in the League as well.
Athletic anonymous player survey came out today and guess who was voted #1 most overrated… rhymes with “doe fare”
That didn’t age well after today’s game
Watching him get cooked (albeit by incredible offensive talents) in the last four minutes of Game 2 followed by having a game winner made on him as he stumbled into the opposing teams bench and they celebrated all around him makes this pretty funny in hindsight
Well…this aged well
couldn’t guard 1 or 5 tonight how ironic
Lolz
Can't guard Joker
Murray! Iso on AD and just destroyed him to win it.
This aged like milk that somebody threw up in. Can’t even close out a game winning play bro
Couldn't guard jokic if hid life depended on it.
DPOY is basically a tall/blocks award with some token selection like Smart every once in a while. Wemby will win it like 10 years straight.
Led the league in blocks 3x and still never won :(
The Smart DPOY annoys me to this day. Dude was like +30000, then went to the highest odds in ONE DAY Must’ve been a coincidence that was the same day the Celtics announced Rob Williams was out for a while…
Smart winning DPOY is the least deserving major award that will ever be given out for the rest of North American sports history. A complete farce of a win. He wasn't 1 on his team or top 15 in the league. Just a complete joke.
But can you defend a small guard with the game on the line?
lol, no.
Nice gameplan. You lost again.
Damn this ages well
What's crazier than that is some voters didn't have AD on any all defense team.
After game 2, this sure did age like milk.
The best regular season defender in the NBA is Rudy. I’m not sure exactly why we have to go through this every time another player gets in their feels. It sucks, but much like playing in the eastern conference during LeBron’s prime, it’s just bad luck for Davis that he plays during this era. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bro forget rudy they got jonathan isaac and okoro over him
Yeah, it’s not egregious that he has not won DPotY when Gobert has been so much better. It’s egregious that he is not a finalist over Bam. He probably could have won it over Smart or Jaren Jackson Jr. if he was healthier the past two years, but this year it is Gobert’s award.
I'm more impressed that he was able to play more than 70 games for the 3rd time in his career.
I don't even get this argument from him. He's not the best defensive player by any metric.
Top tier timing
Fraud
Funny day to cry about this.
oopsie
It's a bit awkward that the game winner was scored on him.
The problem is that ADs defense lends much better to the playoffs than it does the regular season. Draymond Green only won 1 DPOY but was the best defender in the playoffs consistently. 2nd in voting twice, but still.