Eh, settlers aren't necessarily brainwashed by the goverment. It's not new. Religion will do that. They've been doing stuff like this for decades, Netanyahu or not.
The current government *is* enabling them a lot more though.
Wait. Are you saying that me, telling you, that you, think yourself superior to Arabs, is me, being self righteousness? Make it make sense.
I'm just against genocide bruh.
It’s what they’re taught
That they have the right to the land but the Arabs do not
There’s also old fun stuff they used to teach like “the Palestinians are Jews who converted to Islam thus forfeiting their right to the land, which means we get to take it from them.”
I’m pretty sure they don’t include that part that much these days
Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to live in this land. That's it. Nothing about superiority to Arabs. They don't teach that Jews are superior in normal schools, you wouldn't be able to find proof for this. Many people are racist and do believe that, but it comes from the parents not schools
Not just a right to live but a right to establish a Jewish majority state. Which means that Zionism put into practice is a colonial endeavour.
Most Palestinian Jews were not Zionists, they didn't need to believe in an idea they were already living.
- The cultural Zionist Ahad Ha'am "saw the historical rights of the Jews as outweighing the Arabs' residential rights in Palestine".
- Theodor Herzl's companion Max Nordau, a political Zionist, declared that Palestine was the "legal and historical inheritance" of the Jewish nation, and that the Palestinian Arabs had only "possession rights".
- David Ben-Gurion, labour Zionism's most important leader, held that the Jewish people had a superior right to Palestine, that Palestine was important to the Jews as a nation and to the Arabs as individuals, and hence the right of the Jewish people to concentrate in Palestine, a right which was not due to the Arabs.
- Zeev Jabotinsky, leader of the more radical revisionist Zionists, held that since Palestine was only a very small part of the Land held by the Arab nation, "requisition of an area of land from a nation with large stretches of territory, in order to make a home for a wandering people is an act of justice, and if the land-owning nation does not wish to cede it (and this is completely natural) it must be compelled".
You’re quite simply wrong and not thinking critically about what the message actually is
Have you read the early Zionists own writing? Have you read the likes of Theodor Herzl? Have you read Ben-Gurion’s own diary?
The “right” comes from taking that “right” away from the Palestinians
Then the people who make it sound like more, need to convey the definition better. Not make videos where they say unhinged things that make them appear to be someone we would remove a statue of
They don’t even have full rights, they can’t own large portions of Israeli land (Jewish Israelis can though), Arabic isn’t even an official language in Israel either and Israel has routinely ignored the rights of various Arab Israeli villages in which they have cut off water supply, electricity etc.
It's not religion, blaming it on that is ignoring the problem. Jews were living just fine in the area before Europe decided to start its new colonial project. This is just colonialism and racial supremacy showing its face.
Society can also be a reflection of their religion. Just as what a church says can draw in certain people to it, the majority of what a society allowing and even supporting certain religious aspects to their government shows their beliefs.
Zionism is not Judaism and not religious. More politcal ideology that uses Judaism as a justification.
Confusing the two is sometimes done in ignorance, but often deliberate to give Zionism protection by claiming religious persecution.
Zionists and similar assholes on the Islamic side are the reason for the ongoing conflict.
'Similar assholes' my asshole.
The reason for the ongoing conflict is colonialism, ethnic cleansing, ghettoisation and apartheid, in that chronological order.
It sure has. My point was the 'both sides' bit. Resisting occupation and slaughter does not make you equally as bad as the people doing the occupation and slaughter.
I'm sure Hamas and plenty of Palestinians are Bad People but saying the conflict is ongoing due to them implies that Palestinians should just roll over and accept occupation to achieve peace.
Palistians are not without blood on their hands and have been used as proxies. The actions in October were inexcusable.
Both sides embrace hate and violence and neither side acts like they want peace or free society. Neither side is supportable at this point.
Israel is exterminating a civilian population and you want to pretend like Oct 7 justifies it.
Of course Palestinians want freedom, it's why they resist occupation. If they didn't want freedom they'd wither away in their ghetto like Israel wants.
There is no neutrality in the face of injustice, there is just quiet acceptence.
No Hamas atrocities justify murder and mass starvation.
Jews were not at all living fine in the area before Israel. They existed but were subject to discriminatory laws and violence in Palestine and across the middle east.
That being said, the settlers are the worst of the worst, textbook right wing zealots.
It wasn't perfect or the best it had been. In europe, jews were constantly treated as an "other" that cannot be trusted and can not integrate into society. Jews in the levant were a minority in a land of minorities ruled by muslims, which had a lot of disadvantages (especially with the ottomans) but they had a shared community with everyone else living there and didn't face that level of demonization. Things suck now unfortunately.
Strong disagree. Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East (except modern day Israel ofc).
The horrors my ancestors faced in Europe do not excuse what Jews faced in the Middle East before the re-founding of Israel.
I'd actually like to know when was that. I read records from jews in the 18- early 19 hundreds and read about the history around the time of the crusades and the different caliphates but i don't think i found any outright cleansing, at least in the islamic era of the region. I know there were many before but i definitely got gaps.
Ethnic cleansing of Jews happened across the middle east around the time of WW2 and afterwards. Previous to that, they were subject to laws placing them firmly as second-class citizens and of course the multiple times they were ethnically cleansed from what is now modern day Israel.
Jews did not just pop up in Europe one day.
>Ethnic cleansing of Jews happened across the middle east around the time of WW2 and afterwards
Yes. I'm not denying that. There's a reason There's barel any left in arab countries. I was talking about before israel became an issue in the region.
I know about the different pogroms by romans and persians, and how they were chased out of spain by the monarchy.
Again, I'm genuinely curious about if that happened during muslim rule which is why I'm asking cause i never read it before. I knew a tax was inforced on non muslims and discrimination is always a thing, but nothing about outright persecution or attempt at removing them from the region. Especially compared to what happened when the crusaders were invading for example.
I'm not tryjng deny a history of persecution. I'm only speaking from what i know in comparison to the history in europe. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know where.
The mandate was after Zionism began. The clashes during the mandate were because of Zionists loudly proclaiming that they will take over Palestine and expel the Palestinians (which they then did). Prior to that there were basically no clashes beyond those with invading forces
The Ottoman Empire attacked the Allies in World War I in a surprise attack called the Black Sea Raid. You might as well say Germans were doing fine before the Brits decided to colonize them.
Apparently since people think that Europe decided to invade Palestine for colonialism, here’s the actual historical background https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_entry_into_World_War_I
> The Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I began when two recently purchased ships of its navy, which were still crewed by German sailors and commanded by their German admiral, carried out the Black Sea Raid, a surprise attack against Russian ports, on 29 October 1914.
Again. How's that related to Palestine and israel?
Also
>WWI was the era where right of conquest was still the law of warfare.
How does that justify it exactly? "Oh it's just how it was back then. We never need to improve anything "
1. This relates to Israel because you are trying to rewrite history to be Avatar the Last Airbender. “Palestine lived in harmony, everything changed when the Europeans attacked”. The Ottomans entered of their own volition and entered as aggressors.
2. The whole point of moving forward from that era is to accept the borders created in those days via conquest and move on. Hitler started World War II by reclaiming land confiscated from Germany after World War I. Trying to revisit land losses from the right of conquest era does nothing more than perpetuate the right of conquest era.
>This relates to Israel because you are trying to rewrite history to be Avatar the Last Airbender. “Palestine lived in harmony, everything changed when the Europeans attacked”.
In europe, jews were treated like scum and that culminated in the holocaust. In the middle east, they weren't. It's not all kumbaia but they weren't being blamed for every single misfortune for the past 500 years or so.
>The Ottomans entered of their own volition and entered as aggressors.
The ottomans. Palestine was under ottoman rule at the time sure, that doesn't mean they were liable. It's like blaming the armenian genocide on Palestine because they were ruled by the ottoman empire.
>The whole point of moving forward from that era is to accept the borders created in those days via conquest and move on.
If the only perspective you want to take is western Europe sure. Arabia was busy fighting for independence first from the ottomans then from the french and british. They had an agreement with the british to claim the arabian peninsula and the levant as an independent arab kingdom. They got fucked over by Sikes-Picot and the Belfort promise which was the beginning of israel as a concept. A concept created by the british.
>Hitler started World War II by reclaiming land confiscated from Germany after World War I. Trying to revisit land losses from the right of conquest era does nothing more than perpetuate the right of conquest era.
So you're against the right of conquest? Or just ok with it when Britain/France/America decide where the finish line is? Was it not ok for african countries to fight for independence? Should india have stayed a colony because "oh well they conquered us guys. Fighting back will only fuel the right of conquest and make Hitler"
Read accounts from Israeli leaders back then. See how they speak. They're not shy about the colonialism. They're not shy about how the "natives" will not accept them and that they must clear them by force. They're not shy about calling arabs animals. They're not shy about their opinions on Ethiopian jews and arab jews.
Eat glass
The settlers not religious. They're just opportunists who go to Israel to get free land. The ultra religious Jews actually are not Zionists (don't know if it's all of them, or just certain sects).
Israel is one of the countries with the smallest percentage of the population considering religion to be important in their lives. It was founded by secular Jews and run by a very secular, left wing government for its first few decades.
Blaming religion alone for Israeli racism and chauvinism is naive. They behaved the same way under quite secular governments.
Yes and no. Hitler was the equivalent to the DUP, a minority that was propping up a larger party to let them form a government. In this case, the Setlers have been around and influential for quite a while
Fuck the settlers in general, but the hate doesn't come from government brainwashing and propaganda. It's from decades of terrorist attacks and personal bigotry.
Shows a complete lack of understanding of the mentality on the floor.
I have seen dozens of news interviews with man-on-the-street Ukrainians; hairdressers firefighters etc. Really helps cement that these are normal people who've been attacked for no reason
For some reason we don't get to hear opinions from everyday Israelis on the news...
settlers are 5% of israelis, only a small portion of those are people like this.. you shouldn't generalize israelis by using those radical settlers just like no one generalizes Americans using Jan 6th rioters.
Except the jan 6 rioters were clamped down heavily. Settlers are given guns, military support and a pat on the back. They ‘accidentally’ kill someone? Oh it was legitimate self defence.
>settlers are 5% of israelis
Isn't it way higher than that? The vast majority of families who moved to Israel are European settlers. From Israeli Demographics on Wikipedia:
>Among Jews, 70.3% were born in Israel (sabras), **mostly from the second or third generation of their family in the country,** and the rest are Jewish immigrants.
Emphasis mine. This paints a picture where even the people who aren't immediate colonialist sellers are the descendants of people who settled in occupied lands.
Unless you're using a completely different definition of settler than I am?
the definition i'm using (and others when they are talking about this conflict) is Israeli citizens living in the west bank.
the definition you are using will also make every American and Canadian a settler since they are almost exclusively "not immediate colonialists", same goes for a big chunk of Europe and Asia, and most of the middle east. I would argue that most people alive today are "not immediate colonialists" since history is filled with colonialism, which is also why DNA ancestry tests usually contain a dozen of ethnicities, and if you happen to come across someone whose DNA is 100% from a certain ethnicity, he is most likely a result of incestual marriages.
If we take your approach far enough down the ancestrial tree, you'd be pleasantly surprised of how many Jewish people have ancestral ties to Israel that originated from their ancestors before [Babylonian Exodus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(Samaria)#Destruction_of_the_Kingdom,_732%E2%80%93720_BCE) of Jews from the Kingdom of Israel in 720 BCE
Americans and Canadians are settlers living on Native American lands (and have also caused immeasurable harm to the indigenous people). And if you go back 20,000 years, they likely have genetic ties / common ancestors with the same people who originally settled North America. Doesn’t make it right to take away native rights.
At least First Nations now have voting rights, citizenship, and some sort of compensation, it’s a step in the right direction.
most of the world was, at some point in history, colonized and occupied. colonialism never actually stopped, which is literally why countries still have armies. in a post-colonialism world, there would be no reason for a country to have an active military because wars are fought over control, either of land or of resources.
we are not morally better than any other generation, and people who claim they are "anti colonialism" are eother just blind to the fact that their house is the result of colonialism, or are just hypocrites that are against colonialism, but only certain colonialist movements.
It's kind of funny, but I actually agree with you.
Israel's fatal flaw is that it was created just as the world was turning against colonialism. For reference, Britain finished pulling out of India in 1947, only a year earlier.
If the colonialist project had begun just 50 years earlier, using the same horrific methods of violent displacement and ethnic cleansing as in 1948, nobody would even know. It would be historical trivia. A dark mark in human history, but not relevant to modern policy.
But in the 1950s we had photographs, cameras, interviews with the displaced, television and radio to spread [what happened](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre?wprov=sfla1) to as many people as possible. You could't get away with the same shit anymore.
Just a reminder: the West Bank **is not** Gaza, and Hamas is not located there. These Israeli settlers are violating international law and agreements and stealing homes is considered a war crime. Israel is using its conflict with Hamas and Oct 7th as cover to continue illegal settlement in the West Bank.
The settlers who did this should absolutely face harsh consequences but it's wrong to say Hamas has no presence in the west bank, they do. They aren't in control of it like they were in Gaza but they absolutely operate from there as well.
Nope. I'm not talking about right/wrong in the wider context.
You replied to a comment that started with "The settlers who did this should absolutely face harsh consequences"
And your reply was as-if that person had endorsed those settlers and said their actions were fine.
There's no 'misinformation' in that exchange. Only you ignoring a key part of what the other person said.
"No no it was all a misunderstanding" the minister said.
"See they thought it was a convoy of aid, so they proceeded to beat the piss out of the driver" he continued.
"If they had known it was just a regular truck they definitely wouldn't have done what they did."
He ended the press conference by saying "everybody makes mistakes. Hopefully they will learn from this and next time double check the contents before assaulting the driver."
Nothing screams "We are the good guys here!" than beating someone that you think he delivers aid.
Will they ever stop and think ["Are we the baddies?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY)
The settlers are the worst of the worst in Israel. Not sure it’s fair to color the whole country with the worst extremists.
Though, Netanyahu supports the settlers so at the very least I think Israelis should be ashamed of the leadership they keep choosing.
It’s like, I don’t support terrorism or Hamas, but if my entire family got killed in a bombing raid that destroyed Hamas, first thing I’m doing the next day is starting Hamas 2
No it wouldn’t. This fearmongering is idiotic. Show me the part of the law that says it would be illegal to criticize Israel. It’s a useless piece of legislation, it does nothing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090
>This bill provides statutory authority for the requirement that the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights take into **consideration the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA's) working definition of antisemitism** when reviewing or investigating complaints of discrimination based on race, color, or national origin in programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
>Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by **claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor**
>Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
>Drawing comparisons of **contemporary Israeli policy** to that of the Nazis
You can criticize Israel without calling them Nazis, call them Apartheid South Africa.
They aren’t rounding up Palestinians into gas chambers and killing millions of them, but they are bombing civilian areas recklessly while their politicians are spouting genocidal rhetoric.
Wow look I criticized Israel without breaking the law. This claim that the law censors all Israel criticism is completely asinine and divides everyone who wants the violence to stop.
This law says, “don’t say that Israel’s existence is racist” and “don’t compare it to Nazis”
History tends to repeat itself, but Israel has to really try to match atrocities of the Nazis. They’re getting close, but the Nazis make most countries today look tame by any metric imaginable.
Don’t you fucking dare say that I’m minimizing the war crimes Israel is perpetrating in Gaza by comparing atrocities. Every state should be held accountable but I’m not going to say Israel’s existence is a Jewish supremacist movement.
Ok, so what about this makes it illegal to criticize Israel? I agree that it codifies the IHRA definition as law in the Department of Justice and Department of Education (where it has already been adopted as the definition).
But that doesn’t make criticizing Israel illegal. Perhaps you think being antisemitic is illegal? It’s not. It’s protected under free speech, just like racist and homophobic speech.
Edit: yes, downvote me because you know you’re wrong
Edit: yes, continue to downvote me, knowing that the only reason you’re doing so is that I am correct and you’re mistaken about what this law means.
Edit: do you not feel weird? Knowing that you’ve been lied to and propagandized to about this law? And when someone who has actually read the law (and encourages you to do the same) tells you that you’re mistaken about it, rather than listening, your response is to downvote them and not engage?
Do you not see anything concerning with a definition of antisemitism that basically says "you can't criticize the Israeli government" becoming an official reference point for a part of the US government?
It might not straight out say "if you say these things you will BE IN HUGE TROUBLE," but just like saying racist and homophobic shit has consequences anyway, so too will this... but the problem is that criticizing the Israeli government is NOT the same as those other two things.
That is not what the definition says. Where does the IHRA definition say you cannot criticize the Israeli government?
I am slightly concerned by
> claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
And
> Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
But the rest of it seems fine. And I have a hard time believing when this might legally impact someone, can you come up with a single example of some behavior that you condone that you think would be impacted?
Again, nothing in this law says you cannot criticize the Israeli government. In fact the IHRA definition explicitly says you CAN criticize Israel for anything you would criticize any other state for.
At what point do we call it a genocide or an attempted genocide?
It is already an ethnic cleansing campaign, similar to the west bank the last 70 years, only far worse. With settlers just conquering land and getting rid of the palestinians living there since centuries.
It is clear the military wants to get rid of as many people as possible, preferably by forcing them to hunger and leave the country towards Europe. If some die, they don't care, because the 10 y.o. and his sister? Yeah clearly Hamas members? Bombed a record number of journalists and all the Hospitals? Yeah they were all Hamas members.
This is far worse than iraq war and will only make more terrorists and strengthen Hamas (and Iran) and make peace impossible. For what? So some settlers can have THE WHOLE historic lands 2000+ years ago? This is fucking stupid. Zero plan for what comes after.
Seems like the plan is to ethnic cleanse as many as possible & kill as many as possible then annex them, so the jewish supremacy state is majority jewish and arabs stay below 30-40%.
The Israeli historian Illan Pappe (recently detained by the United States and interrogated as a Hamas supporter, he’s a 70 year old man) would refer to this as a “slow burning genocide,” since 1948. He wrote the book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine,” which shows the reality of the Nakba from Israel’s own archives
Of course since October 7th it has become a very fast burning genocide. My breaking point was when Israel bombed the refugees going to Rafah like they were told to do. This was back in October or November, feels like so long ago and one of many atrocities that have been more or less forgotten in the mountain of horror
Literally more than a century ago, go read some of Herzls own words. He spells out that the goal of Zionism is to ethnically cleanse the holy land in preperation for an ethnostate.
Nothing from Herzl though there's text quotes on wikipedia.
I came across this website that has an image quote from David Ben-Gurion if you scroll down.
https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story873.html#AP
100 years ago it wasn't a dirty word. Now any information you don't like is propaganda and therefore wrong.
If you're worried about sharing then you could find or make images with quotes from current Israeli politicians. The PM, President and a few others have outright stated that they plan on eradicating Palestine.
Yeah. Mabe my image of the lists of Zionist massacres are fake. I get told it’s a lie, because Islam permits lieing when needed. So any thing wrong Israel government does, is propaganda, they are saying the lies .
I just smart ass share the pics I n comments on FB . Smart as share links from Reddit subs in comments . I get replies like a photo of a chicken meat carcass and description “ ( my name) after the Arab terrorists get to me” , or just accusations I love the terrorist and hate the Jewish people. These people want to create more anti semitism it seems. I will see stuff, maybe some is not true. I guess the organ and skin selling is not true . I tell them about the shot hostages, and Hannibal protocol. It’s never good
I've been calling it since Worldnews was flooded with people screaming "raze them all" "turn them into a parking lot." People have lost their fucking humanity over that region of the world.
Even a liberal thinker like John Stuart Mill went full genocidal when he heard of the Black Hole of Calcutta (when Indian soldiers imprisoned British occupation troops). The West’s garb of democracy and human rights always seems to fall when dealing with non-Christian, non-White people.
No I know that. Only the Media is doing jack shit. And acting like it's self defense to kill 40k people, half children. 100+ journalists, 2 Million people on the constant run, near Hunger and dipshits attacking convoys.
And before anyone says. Yes I condem the terror attack of Hamas. No not everyone is Hamas, its like killing all the iraqis because Saddam. Wtf??
What should have been done? Bomb the right places, then do a surgical attack. Wtf is mossad doing. They could easily do that. Anounce new elections and not let Hamas run. Thats it. Stabilize the region. But no. Thats not their goal. Their goal is divide & conquer. They did the dividing part. Now they conquer.
Surgical strikes won't stop Palestinian resistance. 'Stability' will only be achieved with total Israeli occupation and control.
You can't just shoot the bad guys to fix things, Gaza is a ghetto and the West Bank is occupied territory. Naturally, the people of Palestine resent this and oppose occupation.
The US invasion of Afgjanistan and Iraq to 'get the bad guys' just resulted in death and instability with little positive effect.
Disease rates went up, ISIL formed, fuelled by local trauma and resentment and now the 'moderate fundamentalist terrorists' are back in charge.
The conflict started before the Peel Commission and the Nakba and is still ongoing.
Yeah. But I don't think you are helping your point.
Iraq and Afghanistan is what the Israelis are doing rn, only worse.
They didnt get Bin Laden or beat Al-Qaeda. Which is still alive, only weaker.
You know who got Bin Laden? SEAL Team 6.
Kill their leadership and do strategic bombings.
Killing civilians only helps terrorists, since it gives them more recruits.
This doesn’t make any sense. Israel can’t just announce new elections while leaving Hamas standing.
You can criticize Israel for a million different things, but it’s so tiring seeing people whip up these bloodless solutions and act like it’s realistic.
I don’t think you can possibly fathom what it would be like to have rockets constantly fired on you for decades and still being told that you can’t go to war to eradicate the organization doing it.
It’s pure fantasy to imagine ANY country suffering a massive terrorist attack and then allowing the responsible party to keep operating.
This doesn’t justify Israel’s actions nor their methods, but let’s not pretend there’s a solution that results in Hamas losing power without a war + plus many civilian casualties. I do believe Israel’s leadership is using the war to do a lot of bad and unnecessary things, but this is why Hamas is such terrible leadership for the Gazans.
Everything Hamas does makes life worse for people in Gaza.
So bombing places where there is ACTUAL Hamas and assassinating their leaders is bloodless??
Carpet bomb civilians to pieces. Have fun with more Terrorists later. Genius move!
This is fucking stupid. Sorry. If we ever learned anything from iraq and Afghanistan it's that bombing civilians will only empower radicals and terrorists.
But Israel doesnt give a flying fuck. They dont care. They want the land. They want the people gone.
For them the Oct 7. Terror attack is a bargaining Chip. They have zero plan for what comes after. And they don't give a fuck about the hostages. The families of the hostages keep criticizing Netanyahus government openly. Ofcourse he is killing the hostages by bombing everything.
Hamas is a dictatorship. They barely won by 2% 18 years ago, when most palestinians alive right now havent been born. And immediately got rid of elections. Netanyahu helped them the whole time to divide the palestinians so no palestinian state can be founded. Eventually they would "win", enough people would leave and everything would be Israel.
I NEVER SAID TO LET HAMAS OPERATE. WTF. YOU KILL THEM YOU KILL THEIR LEADERS ESPECIALLY.
You DONT KILL CIVILIANS and bomb the whole place to Ruins and call them all Hamas, so it's okay to Murder 30-40.000 civilians.
Protip: Using the "they breed like vermin" dog whistle only further proves what everyone already knows, and I'm honestly shocked you're collectively too mentally incapable to see that.
Israeli hasbara has lost it. The lies are getting more obvious and unhinged. The fact they expect anyone to believe that kids are reading Mein Kampf and praising Hitler is beyond absurd.
Definition of ethnic cleansing:
"The mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another."
How is this not what is happening right now before our very eyes?
Also this is such a bad talking point from israel. Just because the ethnic cleansing is not working as good at diminishing the population because yes people can still give birth to more people, duh, and the world population grew by 2-3x in the same timeframe, doesnt mean it isnt happening. You have to be fucking stupid to believe that.
5 million palestinians cant go back home, because they left the country for vacation or something else and have no right to return. Only country that does this. This is worse than Apartheid.
Also what is happening in the west bank the last 70 years is basically ethnic cleansing, only very slowly. They amped up the pressure in the last year. Which lead to the attack od the Hamas. You don't have to be a nobel laurate to see where this is going long term.
Settlers in the Westbank get rid of the palestinians by bullying or even killing them with the help of the IDF, just standing by or helping the settlers. Wtf is this if not ethnic cleansing. Now they want to try to steal the land of Gaza.
It's not like slow ethnic cleansing hasn't been the explicit goal of Zionists since at least the 30s. They know they can't just do a massacre and be done with it without major international backlash.
Instead they take land and destroy/rewrite history piece by piece with the goal of creating a reality in which Palestine never existed and a group of plucky refugees settled in an empty wasteland, creating a Great Nation out of nothing but determination and G-ds blessing.
What happened to the Palestinian population of Acre, Haifa, and Jaffa where they were a majority and now they are an extreme minority? What happened to the Palestinians of Tiberius and Safed? What happened to the towns of Al-Majdal, Deir Yassin, and Tantura? What of the other 400 towns that were razed…
They're doing genocide you see... and they thought this wacky guy was helping people instead so they beat him up. Don't worry he wasn't. A simple mistake.
Palestinians also deserve to have a nice day. Like one where their children aren't targeted with starvation and/or sniper bullets for the crime of existing on the land of their ancestors
I pray that the war will end quickly, that the hostages are returned, that all people on all sides can finally simply live happily and not be exploited and used as mere pawns any longer in this cynical and disastrous way in which several powerful countries are currently profiting off of the wars happening right now in the world.
I wish you and your loved ones a good day. I am not here to argue, goodbye. ❤️🏳️🌈
Eh he might have a point. Your average soldier under WW2 Nazi rule was drafted, forced to fight by some means or another. Especially as they started to loae steam, lose friends, and get closed in on all sides.
These settlers are likely volunteers who wholly believe in their mission, rather than bodies thrown into the meat-grinder of war.
Notice they said *average soldier*.
I think these settlers are probably more aptly compared to the SS, at least in this person's interpretation.
I honestly don't know too much about the intricacies of Israeli Settlers but just the name qlone susgests they're fucked.
If you check his post history he is self-proclaimed pro-israel. This is just one of those cases of "if the other side does something bad, they are bad, if my side does something bad, then we have to talk about how the other side is also bad"
Slightly surprising but not any more disappointing.
It shows how indefensible Israels talking points are now when their defenders have to resort to blackpilling because they have nothing left.
Are you really that simple you think that an incredibly complex situation can be boiled down to a few comments in the past? You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right?
Where it stands now is I think Israel and BB have gone way too far and it's becoming genocide. I think many Israelis have lost their humanity and look at Palestinians as subhuman and have become Nazi'ish themselves.
I also think Gazan's as a whole look at Israelis the same way. Random civilians (non-Hamas) were kidnapping/raping people on 10/7.
I think the entire region has two peoples poisoned against each other and I don't know how it can be fixed even if I was some sort of political leader. It's fucked.
>You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right?
The conflict didn't change since last month, when you outright wrote you were "pro Israel and IDF"
>Random civilians (non-Hamas) were kidnapping/raping people on 10/7.
Source? Because from where I'm sitting your post reads as "a small group of israeli are bad people and they might maybe be starting to commit a tiny bit of genocide (but not there yet!)... but palestinians as a whole are rapists, especially the civilians"
> You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right?
> > The conflict didn't change since last month, when you outright wrote you were "pro Israel and IDF"
Wow you're borderline lying here...basically acting like Fox News. How about you be honest. Let me correct you.
1. [My comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1bv1d82/idf_chief_apologizes_as_details_emerge_of_strike/kxxn11b/) was Apr 3, well over a month ago.
2. I said "I'm pro Israel and IDF **but this is out of hand and they don't know what they're doing. You can't just kill everything that moves. They need to dial it back.**"
3. Hell yes the conflict has changed in the last ~45 days.
> Source?
Are you living in an echo chamber or something?? Everyday Gazan civilians jumped in the action just like these settlers. I have an open mind and am fully aware Israel is likely committing war crimes/genocide and my opinion has changed as the conflict evolved. With more information, are you able to reflect and reconsider your positions? Here are a few sources:
https://freebeacon.com/national-security/gazan-civilians-involved-in-every-stage-of-hamas-hostage-scheme-released-israelis-reveal/
https://www.ajc.org/news/what-is-known-about-israeli-hostages-taken-by-hamas
https://www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/
And before you say *"oh they come from Jewish sources"* or something. These are from the hostages themselves and you can find other articles if you want.
And here's a source that shows how Hamas's death toll numbers are a statistical impossibility - https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/1bedkvl/hamas_casualty_numbers_are_statistically/
They're literally making up numbers. An example is a day where they report many women casualties, there should also be large numbers of children or vice versa.
> Because from where I'm sitting your post reads as "a small group of israeli are bad people and they might maybe be starting to commit a tiny bit of genocide (but not there yet!)... but palestinians as a whole are rapists, especially the civilians"
From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're in an echo chamber, not using critical thinking, and unaware that your understanding may not comport with reality.
>basically acting like Fox News
Oh sure I can tell you are very discerning of what news sources are trustworthy and neutral, like "freebeacon.com" and "a random reddit thread from /r/military"
But sure, I'll take the word of the hostage. Not being sarcastic, I searched and found news about her on actual non-rag news websites, so I'll believe it.
Though it does again go back to what I said; isn't it funny that you, who are claiming to think both sides are bad, somehow only link to famously right-wing biased pro-Israel media websites *even* when the news exist in less sketchy sources? It's like those are your main source of information or something.
But as for "literally making up numbers", this one is reeeeally fake. You're linking to an /r/military post, that itself links to an article in "the jewish chronicle", that itself refers to a story published in "Tablet Magazine".
With, for example, an unlabeled graph showing an unnaturally steady growth of deaths, whose source is... the author or the article himself.
Ah, but he says he sourced it from OCHA, so we can just check it out, right? Let's see
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
OCHA says less than 1000 people were reported dead in all of 2023.
Can we take a look on the graph the author of the article made?
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
https://api.thejc.atexcloud.io/image-service/view/acePublic/alias/contentid/19uwcb8n1jjso65d7r5/1/graph-jpg.webp?w=585&q=0.9
o look it *starts* at above 6000 reported deaths.
So yeah, you're taking as news sources the word of a rando in a right wing nutjob sub, who gets his info from a right wing nutjob news site, who themselves link to an EVEN MORE tabloid-esque right-wing nutjob site, who themselves got the source from a guy who outright huh... what's the word you used? Ah yes
"They're literally making up numbers."
Also even when inventing numbers he can't lie correctly. First he says the data must be faked because it's too uniform and natural numbers are more random, then he says it has to be fake because the number of infants dead is random, as opposite of following a logical pattern.
And even at the end of the original article, this dude who just outright makes up numbers, says this;
> The total civilian casualty count is likely to be extremely overstated. Israel estimates that at least 12,000 fighters have been killed. If that number proves to be even reasonably accurate, then the ratio of noncombatant casualties to combatants is remarkably low: at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1. By historical standards of urban warfare, where combatants are embedded above and below into civilian population centers, this is a remarkable and successful effort to prevent unnecessary loss of life while fighting an implacable enemy that protects itself with civilians
So the article literally ends with "yeah we are like killing more civilians than combatants but like, at an acceptable rate of killing civilians, it's barely three civilians per two combatants."
So congrats, you are literally defending an article written say "it's okay for Israel to target civilians because they could be targeting more".
And yet, you are veeeeeery concerned about both sides equally, right?
>From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're in an echo chamber, not using critical thinking, and unaware that your understanding may not comport with reality.
Oh noooo don't hit me with the meaningless reddit buzzwords, whatever shall i dooooo
> Oh sure I can tell you are very discerning of what news sources are trustworthy and neutral, like "freebeacon.com" and "a random reddit thread from /r/military"
Oh, so you deny stripping my comment of context and changing the meaning of what I said?? I said YOU were like FoxNews and you're trying to pivot to the credibility of the sources I provided instead of addressing the substance, which is you grossly mischaracterized what I actually said.
I can tell you don't bother reading and you're refusing outside information. I made the mistake of assuming you knew how reddit worked because it's not a "random reddit thread". There's an article linked as well, but I provided the reddit thread so you could read the comments if you liked as well.
I can also tell you don't bother researching and probably just form your opinion based on headlines. "FreeBacon" is Washington Free Bacon, which is a right-leaning website. You conveniently ignored `AJC.com` and `TimesOfIsrael.com`. I just took the top links from Google because I assumed you'd do your own fact checking and find your own sources.
You seriously think those random websites are my "sources of news"?? How naive can you be? It's just the top Google results. I'm not going to spend hours spoon feeding sources when you're going to try and disprove it anyway, so what's the point?
> Ah, but he says he sourced it from OCHA, so we can just check it out, right? Let's see
> https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
> OCHA says less than 1000 people were reported dead in all of 2023.
> Can we take a look on the graph the author of the article made?
WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you did all this "research" and you didn't even read OCHA's **BIG NOTE AT THE TOP**?? Allow me:
> Casualties in the context of the ongoing hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel, which started on 7 October 2023, **will only be added to this page once these incidents have been independently verified.**
The full database is password protected and their flash updates are lacking.
The rest of your random rant is you making crap up and trying to pick apart a data science professor with your bunk logic.
Like I said...you've made up your mind, cherry pick the information you want, refuse outside information, etc. You don't like information that fits your narrative, so you make up excuses to put it aside.
It's like trying to have a discussion with a Trump supporter about the election being stolen. You'll find an excuse for everything.
Hey, have you noticed?
This comment chain started because I said "AlexHimself doesn't actually think both sides are bad, he's pro-Israel and is just using 'both sides' as a way to deflect from a news source that says Israel did something bad"
And to deny that you... linked to multiple pro-Israel articles, including an article that was completely unrelated to the discussion about how Israel isn't killing as many civilians as people claim, and said that palestinians as a whole are rapists.
Did you like, forget that you were trying to pretend you weren't pro-Israel halfway through writing the second paragraph on your first post?
> you don't bother reading and you're refusing outside information.
I literally conceeded that yes, palestinian civilians did kidnap Israelis, which I did not know.
I know you are very eager to rant, but you don't get to pull the "you aren't willing to admit to anything" after a post I literally did so.
At least not without looking like a fool.
>I made the mistake of assuming you knew how reddit worked because it's not a "random reddit thread". There's an article linked as well,
Which I referenced further down the post. Did you forget to delete this paragraph after reading the rest of it, or just like before you forgot what you had written just after writing it down?
>"FreeBacon" is Washington Free Bacon,
"FreeBacon" would be an even worst source than "FreeBeacon"
It's amusing you're trying to defend your sources and you can't even get their names right.
> conveniently ignored AJC.com and TimesOfIsrael.com
When you post three links and one of them is shit, saying "hey only 1/3rd of my sources are shit" isn't a good defense.
>I just took the top links from Google
I know you did. That's usually the extend that people like you research things.
As a matter of fact, perhaps if you had done something further than just grabbing links from google at random, you'd have noticed the AJC article doesn't even mention civilians kidnapping Israelis, only the other two articles do.
You probably googled something like "civlian kidnapping israeli" and by accident grabbed a link to an article about "hamas kidnapping israeli civilian", and didn't bother to actually check it.
>You seriously think those random websites are my "sources of news"?? How naive can you be?
"Uh, uh, those websites I used as a source of news aren't my source of news!"
Sure thing, dude.
>I'm not going to spend hours spoon feeding sources when you're going to try and disprove it anyway, so what's the point?
Wow, way to betray yourself.
Literally "I'm not going to bother researching my points, because no matter how hard I try you'll find arguments against them"
In just one sentence admitting you are both unable to argue, and also that you know no matter how hard you were able to argue, those arguments wouldn't survive scrutinity.
>WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you did all this "research" and you didn't even read OCHA's BIG NOTE AT THE TOP?? Allow me:
Did you honestly write "WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣"? Jesus man get a hold of yourself.
But anyways, very well, you go me on that one, the author didn't get the numbers from that, he got from the snapshots.
So, let's see the snapshots
https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-20
Well the total seems to check out roughly to where the graph starts, so I'll give it that.
But! And this is where the magic starts,
Here's what the author says; "This regularity is almost surely not real. One would expect quite a bit of variation day to day. In fact, the daily reported casualty count over this period averages 270 plus or minus about 15%"
The numbers aren't real because there are no day-to-day variation. That's his argument.
Let's look at some of the numbers;
27/10 298 fatalities
28/10 at least 377 Palestinians killed
29/10 302 Palestinians were killed in Gaza
30/10 [I couldn't find numbers]
31/10 [I couldn't find numbers]
01/11 280 Palestinians were killed in Gaza,
02/11 256 Palestinians were killed in Gaza,
03/11 196 Palestinians were killed in Gaza,
04/11 231 Palestinians were killed in Gaza,
05/11 243 Palestinians were killed in Gaza,
That's weird... there seems to be some *gasp* variation in these numbers. What gives?
Well, turns out that when the author says "average between 270 plus or minus 15%", that is a very tricky way to say "between 230 and 310, with some exceptions that go below and above those numbers as well"
Meaning there can be a difference of 80 deaths per day, and a few outliers, and it would still be on that "average". What's more, turns out even if the average is that, some of the days wildly break it such as 28/10 and 03/11.
"But then how come his graph is so uniform??"
Because he is doing a clever trick by showing the total of deaths instead of the deaths per day, which zooms out the graph and makes the difference in numbers seem smaller. The difference between 6298 and 6675 is harder to spot than the difference between 298 and 377
Here's how a graph with the actual deaths per day would look like, without using the total;
https://imgur.com/a/Emxute0
As you can plainly see, there is a huge variation in the number of deaths per day, and the author was just fudging it up to trick guillible people.
*"You think you can take me seriously in a discussion? I refuse to judge the information but instead try and pick apart the source without any evidence becuz Im smurt."* ☝️
Yes but Israelis started the conflict by expelling 650 thousand Arabs who'd lived in the region since the stone age from mandatory Palestine in1948 and then occupying the west.bank and Gaza in 1967 and creating an apartheid state. The resistance to apartheid in South Africa used terrorism at times too but their grievances were legitimate no group of people have the right to create an apartheid state and keep another people living in squalor perpetually.
Clashes started way before the Nakba, look up the hebron massacre for example. Also the Palestinians didn't live there since the stone age or whatever, they are arabs who are native to the arabian peninsula, came with the Islamic conquest a long time ago, but not stone age.
The west bank was occupied by Jordan in 1948, not Israel. And the Palestinians use violent resistance against civilians all the time, not sometimes... besides the second intifada there are dozens of civilian Israeli victims every year. You got so many facts wrong...
Genetics show Palestinian Arabs are in fact descended from the people that have been living in the area since the stone age. Emit doesn't even matter the Jewish people left the area en masse around 2000 years ago are we going to turn the map back 2000 years? Nobody believes that the map should be turned back 2000 years if they did they'd be calling for every African, Asian and European(including African, Asian and European Jews) to leave the Americas and Australia because that land belongs to those continent's indigenous peoples and those people have more than a right to live as small oppressed minorities in their own countries. Because that's what Israeli Jews will tell you they not only have a right to live in the area but have the right to be a majority there too and control the whole land.
Hebron happened as a reaction to Zionist migration efforts and British support for the Zionist project. It was all part of the same project.
Also Palestinians are native to the region. It’s absurd to pretend they descend from the Arabian peninsula when there’s records indicating their continued presence in Palestine since antiquity.
"Abstract
The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/
Except the definition of Aparthied is two sets of laws for one people. And Palestinians namely aren’t Israeli citizens - the 20% of Israeli citizens that are Arab have the same legal rights as Jews
Also saying it started with expulsion kind of misses the 7 Arab armies that told people to leave so they could use their villages as barracks to exterminate the Jews.
1948 was a war of independence if we want to be overly simplistic. And the Arabs were the ones that initiated the war, and lost. They of course are entitled to be upset with partition, but they only have themselves to blame for not participating in it at all and then instead choosing war and losing
And they’ve been given many chances at their own state and self determination, but they refuse to stop being terrorists and demanding a do-over for their failed genocide in 1948
No of course not, settlers are generally reprehensible and if they assaulted drivers and destroyed aid they should be prosecuted
But none of that has anything to do with whether Israel should be treating Israeli citizens and Palestinians the exact same
And while I wish Gazans had more freedom, I also can’t really blame Israel for not having open borders and amicable relations with Gaza while they are ruled by Iranian-backed Hamas that have been trying to wipe out Israel and indiscriminately murder civilians for decades.
You really think that if Israel had removed all restrictions on Gaza things would have been different? Hamas, and their supporters around the world aren’t chanting for a 2SS, they want all of Israel. All that would have changed is Hamas would have been able to bring in more Iranian weaponry and something like October 7th probably would have happened a decade ago
Uh, and the fact that Palestinians need to have aid trafficked in the first place never crossed your mind that Israel is causing the situation to transpire? Or that Israeli military and police seem to be okay with the attacks and encourage the sales of anti-tank weapons to settlers?
Furthermore I notice how you mentioned Gaza; but strangely you’ve forgotten the West Bank even though Israel is officially not invading the West Bank because of the events of October 7th.
So, I think it’s very telling that you want to make this about Hamas; but are conveniently ignoring the country that’s existed for 75 years that has caused the events to transpire as they have.
The fact they need aid trafficked in is a question of geography. If you weren’t aware Gaza shares almost its entire border with Israel. And to my knowledge prior to Israel taking control of Rafah aid barely flowed in through Egypt since Palestinians kept assaulting the aid trucks (since they get appropriated by Hamas if not). Hamas doesn’t have any other land borders and I didn’t see any of their Allie’s bringing aid in through boat
And yes I mentioned Gaza because Hamas are the rulers of Gaza, while the PA notionally is in control of the WB. And the WB governance is in place as setup and agreed to by the PA. If they want greater autonomy they can negotiate a more comprehensive peace deal
And of course it’s about Hamas. Hamas has been carrying out terrorist attacks and firing rockets at Israel for decades. And while the PA is barely any better, Hamas and their sugar daddies Iran are dead set on the destruction of Israel and hence are the group Israel is at war with
Is it a question of geography or policy?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/killing-starving-palestinians-and-targeting-aid-trucks-deliberate-israeli-policy-reinforce-famine-gaza-strip-april-2024#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20starvation%20as,the%20entry%20of%20commercial%20goods%3B
>The use of starvation as a weapon has been an official political decision from the first day of the war, as declared by the Israeli Minister of Defense, and was implemented in integrated stages, which have included tightening the siege and closing the border crossings; preventing the entry of commercial goods; destroying all components of local production and food sources; increasing the Gaza Strip population’s reliance on humanitarian aid; and turning it into their main source of food.
If we’re talking policy, then it was probably a pretty dumb policy of the government of Gaza to declare all out war against its neighboring country that it relies on for a significant amount of its essentials even during times of calm
Probably doesn’t help that Hamas digs up water pipes to turn into rockets and was more interested in building 500km of tunnels and building a never ending stockpile of rockets rather than actually investing in Gaza’s future
You’re deflecting.
Is it an intentional policy, by the Israeli Government, to starve Gaza?
Keep in mind, I have the exact quotes by government ministers and Gaza is going through a man-made famine. So I suggest you choose your next words wisely.
You can't make this shit up.
It's not just Netanyahu.
Yeah we're watching what happened with German citizens under the reich- complete and udder brainwashing propaganda.
Eh, settlers aren't necessarily brainwashed by the goverment. It's not new. Religion will do that. They've been doing stuff like this for decades, Netanyahu or not. The current government *is* enabling them a lot more though.
They're literally taught zionism in schools.
Zionism isn't necessarily a religious phenomena
What is zionism in your opinion? What is it they teach at schools?
That Jews are superior and Arabs are subhuman?
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I'm referring to the fact that you think you're superior to them.
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Wait. Are you saying that me, telling you, that you, think yourself superior to Arabs, is me, being self righteousness? Make it make sense. I'm just against genocide bruh.
That's not what Zionism is.
It’s what they’re taught That they have the right to the land but the Arabs do not There’s also old fun stuff they used to teach like “the Palestinians are Jews who converted to Islam thus forfeiting their right to the land, which means we get to take it from them.” I’m pretty sure they don’t include that part that much these days
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Cool, do you think the Palestinians have the right of return?
Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to live in this land. That's it. Nothing about superiority to Arabs. They don't teach that Jews are superior in normal schools, you wouldn't be able to find proof for this. Many people are racist and do believe that, but it comes from the parents not schools
Not just a right to live but a right to establish a Jewish majority state. Which means that Zionism put into practice is a colonial endeavour. Most Palestinian Jews were not Zionists, they didn't need to believe in an idea they were already living.
So they're taught Jews can live anywhere they want, and Palestinians have no say in the matter? Almost like one is superior and the other is subhuman?
A bit reductive but yeah. I'd rather focus on more defensible topics than culturally ingrained racism and supremacist ideaology but you do you.
- The cultural Zionist Ahad Ha'am "saw the historical rights of the Jews as outweighing the Arabs' residential rights in Palestine". - Theodor Herzl's companion Max Nordau, a political Zionist, declared that Palestine was the "legal and historical inheritance" of the Jewish nation, and that the Palestinian Arabs had only "possession rights". - David Ben-Gurion, labour Zionism's most important leader, held that the Jewish people had a superior right to Palestine, that Palestine was important to the Jews as a nation and to the Arabs as individuals, and hence the right of the Jewish people to concentrate in Palestine, a right which was not due to the Arabs. - Zeev Jabotinsky, leader of the more radical revisionist Zionists, held that since Palestine was only a very small part of the Land held by the Arab nation, "requisition of an area of land from a nation with large stretches of territory, in order to make a home for a wandering people is an act of justice, and if the land-owning nation does not wish to cede it (and this is completely natural) it must be compelled".
You’re quite simply wrong and not thinking critically about what the message actually is Have you read the early Zionists own writing? Have you read the likes of Theodor Herzl? Have you read Ben-Gurion’s own diary? The “right” comes from taking that “right” away from the Palestinians
Then the people who make it sound like more, need to convey the definition better. Not make videos where they say unhinged things that make them appear to be someone we would remove a statue of
ok then, so do arabs not have the right? you guys already took the land, and now you're taking more.
20% of Israel's citizens are Palestinians, majority of them Muslims, with full rights. As you see they do have the right to live there
They don’t even have full rights, they can’t own large portions of Israeli land (Jewish Israelis can though), Arabic isn’t even an official language in Israel either and Israel has routinely ignored the rights of various Arab Israeli villages in which they have cut off water supply, electricity etc.
aww that's nice. we did a similar thing here in the US.
It's not religion, blaming it on that is ignoring the problem. Jews were living just fine in the area before Europe decided to start its new colonial project. This is just colonialism and racial supremacy showing its face.
It can be both. There are more flavours to religion, some sects are known for this behaviour.
Religion reflects the society or part of society that it's in, a religion of colonialists is going to be colonial, racist, expansionist etc.
Society can also be a reflection of their religion. Just as what a church says can draw in certain people to it, the majority of what a society allowing and even supporting certain religious aspects to their government shows their beliefs.
Zionism is not Judaism and not religious. More politcal ideology that uses Judaism as a justification. Confusing the two is sometimes done in ignorance, but often deliberate to give Zionism protection by claiming religious persecution. Zionists and similar assholes on the Islamic side are the reason for the ongoing conflict.
'Similar assholes' my asshole. The reason for the ongoing conflict is colonialism, ethnic cleansing, ghettoisation and apartheid, in that chronological order.
Zionism has embraced all 4 of those tactics.
It sure has. My point was the 'both sides' bit. Resisting occupation and slaughter does not make you equally as bad as the people doing the occupation and slaughter. I'm sure Hamas and plenty of Palestinians are Bad People but saying the conflict is ongoing due to them implies that Palestinians should just roll over and accept occupation to achieve peace.
Palistians are not without blood on their hands and have been used as proxies. The actions in October were inexcusable. Both sides embrace hate and violence and neither side acts like they want peace or free society. Neither side is supportable at this point.
Israel is exterminating a civilian population and you want to pretend like Oct 7 justifies it. Of course Palestinians want freedom, it's why they resist occupation. If they didn't want freedom they'd wither away in their ghetto like Israel wants. There is no neutrality in the face of injustice, there is just quiet acceptence. No Hamas atrocities justify murder and mass starvation.
Jews were not at all living fine in the area before Israel. They existed but were subject to discriminatory laws and violence in Palestine and across the middle east. That being said, the settlers are the worst of the worst, textbook right wing zealots.
It wasn't perfect or the best it had been. In europe, jews were constantly treated as an "other" that cannot be trusted and can not integrate into society. Jews in the levant were a minority in a land of minorities ruled by muslims, which had a lot of disadvantages (especially with the ottomans) but they had a shared community with everyone else living there and didn't face that level of demonization. Things suck now unfortunately.
Strong disagree. Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East (except modern day Israel ofc). The horrors my ancestors faced in Europe do not excuse what Jews faced in the Middle East before the re-founding of Israel.
I'd actually like to know when was that. I read records from jews in the 18- early 19 hundreds and read about the history around the time of the crusades and the different caliphates but i don't think i found any outright cleansing, at least in the islamic era of the region. I know there were many before but i definitely got gaps.
Ethnic cleansing of Jews happened across the middle east around the time of WW2 and afterwards. Previous to that, they were subject to laws placing them firmly as second-class citizens and of course the multiple times they were ethnically cleansed from what is now modern day Israel. Jews did not just pop up in Europe one day.
>Ethnic cleansing of Jews happened across the middle east around the time of WW2 and afterwards Yes. I'm not denying that. There's a reason There's barel any left in arab countries. I was talking about before israel became an issue in the region. I know about the different pogroms by romans and persians, and how they were chased out of spain by the monarchy. Again, I'm genuinely curious about if that happened during muslim rule which is why I'm asking cause i never read it before. I knew a tax was inforced on non muslims and discrimination is always a thing, but nothing about outright persecution or attempt at removing them from the region. Especially compared to what happened when the crusaders were invading for example. I'm not tryjng deny a history of persecution. I'm only speaking from what i know in comparison to the history in europe. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know where.
There were multiple riots and violent clashes against Jews in the mandate. It was hardly "just fine" before Israel.
The mandate was after Zionism began. The clashes during the mandate were because of Zionists loudly proclaiming that they will take over Palestine and expel the Palestinians (which they then did). Prior to that there were basically no clashes beyond those with invading forces
The Ottoman Empire attacked the Allies in World War I in a surprise attack called the Black Sea Raid. You might as well say Germans were doing fine before the Brits decided to colonize them. Apparently since people think that Europe decided to invade Palestine for colonialism, here’s the actual historical background https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_entry_into_World_War_I > The Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I began when two recently purchased ships of its navy, which were still crewed by German sailors and commanded by their German admiral, carried out the Black Sea Raid, a surprise attack against Russian ports, on 29 October 1914.
Again. How's that related to Palestine and israel? Also >WWI was the era where right of conquest was still the law of warfare. How does that justify it exactly? "Oh it's just how it was back then. We never need to improve anything "
1. This relates to Israel because you are trying to rewrite history to be Avatar the Last Airbender. “Palestine lived in harmony, everything changed when the Europeans attacked”. The Ottomans entered of their own volition and entered as aggressors. 2. The whole point of moving forward from that era is to accept the borders created in those days via conquest and move on. Hitler started World War II by reclaiming land confiscated from Germany after World War I. Trying to revisit land losses from the right of conquest era does nothing more than perpetuate the right of conquest era.
>This relates to Israel because you are trying to rewrite history to be Avatar the Last Airbender. “Palestine lived in harmony, everything changed when the Europeans attacked”. In europe, jews were treated like scum and that culminated in the holocaust. In the middle east, they weren't. It's not all kumbaia but they weren't being blamed for every single misfortune for the past 500 years or so. >The Ottomans entered of their own volition and entered as aggressors. The ottomans. Palestine was under ottoman rule at the time sure, that doesn't mean they were liable. It's like blaming the armenian genocide on Palestine because they were ruled by the ottoman empire. >The whole point of moving forward from that era is to accept the borders created in those days via conquest and move on. If the only perspective you want to take is western Europe sure. Arabia was busy fighting for independence first from the ottomans then from the french and british. They had an agreement with the british to claim the arabian peninsula and the levant as an independent arab kingdom. They got fucked over by Sikes-Picot and the Belfort promise which was the beginning of israel as a concept. A concept created by the british. >Hitler started World War II by reclaiming land confiscated from Germany after World War I. Trying to revisit land losses from the right of conquest era does nothing more than perpetuate the right of conquest era. So you're against the right of conquest? Or just ok with it when Britain/France/America decide where the finish line is? Was it not ok for african countries to fight for independence? Should india have stayed a colony because "oh well they conquered us guys. Fighting back will only fuel the right of conquest and make Hitler" Read accounts from Israeli leaders back then. See how they speak. They're not shy about the colonialism. They're not shy about how the "natives" will not accept them and that they must clear them by force. They're not shy about calling arabs animals. They're not shy about their opinions on Ethiopian jews and arab jews. Eat glass
What the fuck are you talking about?
The settlers not religious. They're just opportunists who go to Israel to get free land. The ultra religious Jews actually are not Zionists (don't know if it's all of them, or just certain sects).
Israel is one of the countries with the smallest percentage of the population considering religion to be important in their lives. It was founded by secular Jews and run by a very secular, left wing government for its first few decades. Blaming religion alone for Israeli racism and chauvinism is naive. They behaved the same way under quite secular governments.
Netanjahu exists because of the settlers, not the other way around sadly.
Self-feeding cycle. Hitler exists because people were nazis
Yes and no. Hitler was the equivalent to the DUP, a minority that was propping up a larger party to let them form a government. In this case, the Setlers have been around and influential for quite a while
Sure, their normalization is what caused it.
Leave the cows out of this!
Fuck the settlers in general, but the hate doesn't come from government brainwashing and propaganda. It's from decades of terrorist attacks and personal bigotry. Shows a complete lack of understanding of the mentality on the floor.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. And sometimes it does so for the sake of farcical misery.
It’s giving me big Kristallnacht vibes.
You don't understand: they need the lebrnsraum!
I have seen dozens of news interviews with man-on-the-street Ukrainians; hairdressers firefighters etc. Really helps cement that these are normal people who've been attacked for no reason For some reason we don't get to hear opinions from everyday Israelis on the news...
I don’t think you can air everyday Israeli’s thoughts on the news lol
Yeah, finding out that a bunch of normal people are really really ok with genocide temps to put a damper on the evening news.
Not necessarily ok, but overwhelmingly active supporters according to certain polls
Even though millions are in the streets of Tel Aviv protesting to remove BiBi... hmm...
Do they want to remove Bibi, stop genocide and stop the settlers or just remove Bibi? It seems to me the latter...
Wait I'm dumb but did you mean Ukranians, or Palestinians?
Israel and Ukraine'a circumstances are incredibly dissimilar.
Remove the head first, better policies will follow.
settlers are 5% of israelis, only a small portion of those are people like this.. you shouldn't generalize israelis by using those radical settlers just like no one generalizes Americans using Jan 6th rioters.
Except the jan 6 rioters were clamped down heavily. Settlers are given guns, military support and a pat on the back. They ‘accidentally’ kill someone? Oh it was legitimate self defence.
>settlers are 5% of israelis Isn't it way higher than that? The vast majority of families who moved to Israel are European settlers. From Israeli Demographics on Wikipedia: >Among Jews, 70.3% were born in Israel (sabras), **mostly from the second or third generation of their family in the country,** and the rest are Jewish immigrants. Emphasis mine. This paints a picture where even the people who aren't immediate colonialist sellers are the descendants of people who settled in occupied lands. Unless you're using a completely different definition of settler than I am?
the definition i'm using (and others when they are talking about this conflict) is Israeli citizens living in the west bank. the definition you are using will also make every American and Canadian a settler since they are almost exclusively "not immediate colonialists", same goes for a big chunk of Europe and Asia, and most of the middle east. I would argue that most people alive today are "not immediate colonialists" since history is filled with colonialism, which is also why DNA ancestry tests usually contain a dozen of ethnicities, and if you happen to come across someone whose DNA is 100% from a certain ethnicity, he is most likely a result of incestual marriages. If we take your approach far enough down the ancestrial tree, you'd be pleasantly surprised of how many Jewish people have ancestral ties to Israel that originated from their ancestors before [Babylonian Exodus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(Samaria)#Destruction_of_the_Kingdom,_732%E2%80%93720_BCE) of Jews from the Kingdom of Israel in 720 BCE
Americans and Canadians are settlers living on Native American lands (and have also caused immeasurable harm to the indigenous people). And if you go back 20,000 years, they likely have genetic ties / common ancestors with the same people who originally settled North America. Doesn’t make it right to take away native rights. At least First Nations now have voting rights, citizenship, and some sort of compensation, it’s a step in the right direction.
most of the world was, at some point in history, colonized and occupied. colonialism never actually stopped, which is literally why countries still have armies. in a post-colonialism world, there would be no reason for a country to have an active military because wars are fought over control, either of land or of resources. we are not morally better than any other generation, and people who claim they are "anti colonialism" are eother just blind to the fact that their house is the result of colonialism, or are just hypocrites that are against colonialism, but only certain colonialist movements.
It's kind of funny, but I actually agree with you. Israel's fatal flaw is that it was created just as the world was turning against colonialism. For reference, Britain finished pulling out of India in 1947, only a year earlier. If the colonialist project had begun just 50 years earlier, using the same horrific methods of violent displacement and ethnic cleansing as in 1948, nobody would even know. It would be historical trivia. A dark mark in human history, but not relevant to modern policy. But in the 1950s we had photographs, cameras, interviews with the displaced, television and radio to spread [what happened](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre?wprov=sfla1) to as many people as possible. You could't get away with the same shit anymore.
“Settlers” are Israel’s worst.
[удалено]
Bibi is a result of settlers
And Likud, Netanyahu’s party, is the party of the settlers
Aren't they Americans too?
"Ok but that's worse. You do see how that's worse right?"
Just a reminder: the West Bank **is not** Gaza, and Hamas is not located there. These Israeli settlers are violating international law and agreements and stealing homes is considered a war crime. Israel is using its conflict with Hamas and Oct 7th as cover to continue illegal settlement in the West Bank.
The settlers who did this should absolutely face harsh consequences but it's wrong to say Hamas has no presence in the west bank, they do. They aren't in control of it like they were in Gaza but they absolutely operate from there as well.
Oh okay stealing the homes of innocent people who’ve lived there for generations is fine then. /s
I had a person say they are just taking back ancestral land. Supporters are a wild bunch
Better hope Native Americans don't start acting all Jewish
I try to tell people things like that. The ziohards, who might also be MAGA heads.
Looks like you missed the very first half of the first sentence of the comment you replied to.
Looks like you missed misinformation.
Nope. I'm not talking about right/wrong in the wider context. You replied to a comment that started with "The settlers who did this should absolutely face harsh consequences" And your reply was as-if that person had endorsed those settlers and said their actions were fine. There's no 'misinformation' in that exchange. Only you ignoring a key part of what the other person said.
That’s a lot of words I’m not going to read for defending zionists
"No no it was all a misunderstanding" the minister said. "See they thought it was a convoy of aid, so they proceeded to beat the piss out of the driver" he continued. "If they had known it was just a regular truck they definitely wouldn't have done what they did." He ended the press conference by saying "everybody makes mistakes. Hopefully they will learn from this and next time double check the contents before assaulting the driver."
Nothing screams "We are the good guys here!" than beating someone that you think he delivers aid. Will they ever stop and think ["Are we the baddies?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY)
Self reflection of being the baddies would be anti-semitism.
The settlers are the worst of the worst in Israel. Not sure it’s fair to color the whole country with the worst extremists. Though, Netanyahu supports the settlers so at the very least I think Israelis should be ashamed of the leadership they keep choosing.
I feel like Israel is creating more terrorists than it is killing at this point.
They are the terrorist. Creating resistance fighters.
It’s like, I don’t support terrorism or Hamas, but if my entire family got killed in a bombing raid that destroyed Hamas, first thing I’m doing the next day is starting Hamas 2
Feel like murdering 40.000+ people in a concentration Israeli has forced them into after colonizing their land makes them the terrorists.
And then they wonder why Israel is so disliked
Guys, is it antisemitic to criticize the actions of these individuals? I don't want to offend anyone but people are dying.
According to US Congress HR6090, it would be illegal to criticize Israel
No it wouldn’t. This fearmongering is idiotic. Show me the part of the law that says it would be illegal to criticize Israel. It’s a useless piece of legislation, it does nothing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090 >This bill provides statutory authority for the requirement that the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights take into **consideration the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA's) working definition of antisemitism** when reviewing or investigating complaints of discrimination based on race, color, or national origin in programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance. https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism >Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by **claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor** >Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation >Drawing comparisons of **contemporary Israeli policy** to that of the Nazis
You can criticize Israel without calling them Nazis, call them Apartheid South Africa. They aren’t rounding up Palestinians into gas chambers and killing millions of them, but they are bombing civilian areas recklessly while their politicians are spouting genocidal rhetoric. Wow look I criticized Israel without breaking the law. This claim that the law censors all Israel criticism is completely asinine and divides everyone who wants the violence to stop. This law says, “don’t say that Israel’s existence is racist” and “don’t compare it to Nazis” History tends to repeat itself, but Israel has to really try to match atrocities of the Nazis. They’re getting close, but the Nazis make most countries today look tame by any metric imaginable. Don’t you fucking dare say that I’m minimizing the war crimes Israel is perpetrating in Gaza by comparing atrocities. Every state should be held accountable but I’m not going to say Israel’s existence is a Jewish supremacist movement.
Ok, so what about this makes it illegal to criticize Israel? I agree that it codifies the IHRA definition as law in the Department of Justice and Department of Education (where it has already been adopted as the definition). But that doesn’t make criticizing Israel illegal. Perhaps you think being antisemitic is illegal? It’s not. It’s protected under free speech, just like racist and homophobic speech. Edit: yes, downvote me because you know you’re wrong Edit: yes, continue to downvote me, knowing that the only reason you’re doing so is that I am correct and you’re mistaken about what this law means. Edit: do you not feel weird? Knowing that you’ve been lied to and propagandized to about this law? And when someone who has actually read the law (and encourages you to do the same) tells you that you’re mistaken about it, rather than listening, your response is to downvote them and not engage?
Do you not see anything concerning with a definition of antisemitism that basically says "you can't criticize the Israeli government" becoming an official reference point for a part of the US government? It might not straight out say "if you say these things you will BE IN HUGE TROUBLE," but just like saying racist and homophobic shit has consequences anyway, so too will this... but the problem is that criticizing the Israeli government is NOT the same as those other two things.
That is not what the definition says. Where does the IHRA definition say you cannot criticize the Israeli government? I am slightly concerned by > claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. And > Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. But the rest of it seems fine. And I have a hard time believing when this might legally impact someone, can you come up with a single example of some behavior that you condone that you think would be impacted? Again, nothing in this law says you cannot criticize the Israeli government. In fact the IHRA definition explicitly says you CAN criticize Israel for anything you would criticize any other state for.
Just offend people...
Wow
People just want excuses to be violent at this point. Reminds me of the stop oil protestors stopping a truck of cooking oil.
Hitler would be proud of them
At what point do we call it a genocide or an attempted genocide? It is already an ethnic cleansing campaign, similar to the west bank the last 70 years, only far worse. With settlers just conquering land and getting rid of the palestinians living there since centuries. It is clear the military wants to get rid of as many people as possible, preferably by forcing them to hunger and leave the country towards Europe. If some die, they don't care, because the 10 y.o. and his sister? Yeah clearly Hamas members? Bombed a record number of journalists and all the Hospitals? Yeah they were all Hamas members. This is far worse than iraq war and will only make more terrorists and strengthen Hamas (and Iran) and make peace impossible. For what? So some settlers can have THE WHOLE historic lands 2000+ years ago? This is fucking stupid. Zero plan for what comes after. Seems like the plan is to ethnic cleanse as many as possible & kill as many as possible then annex them, so the jewish supremacy state is majority jewish and arabs stay below 30-40%.
The Israeli historian Illan Pappe (recently detained by the United States and interrogated as a Hamas supporter, he’s a 70 year old man) would refer to this as a “slow burning genocide,” since 1948. He wrote the book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine,” which shows the reality of the Nakba from Israel’s own archives Of course since October 7th it has become a very fast burning genocide. My breaking point was when Israel bombed the refugees going to Rafah like they were told to do. This was back in October or November, feels like so long ago and one of many atrocities that have been more or less forgotten in the mountain of horror
Literally more than a century ago, go read some of Herzls own words. He spells out that the goal of Zionism is to ethnically cleanse the holy land in preperation for an ethnostate.
Any meme or infographic on that? Even though it would be bad for my anxiety thinking I am doing the good right thing by sharing it in places ?
Nothing from Herzl though there's text quotes on wikipedia. I came across this website that has an image quote from David Ben-Gurion if you scroll down. https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story873.html#AP
Ah. I am sure some boomer will just tell me I have propaganda anyway
100 years ago it wasn't a dirty word. Now any information you don't like is propaganda and therefore wrong. If you're worried about sharing then you could find or make images with quotes from current Israeli politicians. The PM, President and a few others have outright stated that they plan on eradicating Palestine.
Yeah. Mabe my image of the lists of Zionist massacres are fake. I get told it’s a lie, because Islam permits lieing when needed. So any thing wrong Israel government does, is propaganda, they are saying the lies . I just smart ass share the pics I n comments on FB . Smart as share links from Reddit subs in comments . I get replies like a photo of a chicken meat carcass and description “ ( my name) after the Arab terrorists get to me” , or just accusations I love the terrorist and hate the Jewish people. These people want to create more anti semitism it seems. I will see stuff, maybe some is not true. I guess the organ and skin selling is not true . I tell them about the shot hostages, and Hannibal protocol. It’s never good
I've been calling it since Worldnews was flooded with people screaming "raze them all" "turn them into a parking lot." People have lost their fucking humanity over that region of the world.
Even a liberal thinker like John Stuart Mill went full genocidal when he heard of the Black Hole of Calcutta (when Indian soldiers imprisoned British occupation troops). The West’s garb of democracy and human rights always seems to fall when dealing with non-Christian, non-White people.
South Africa has already asked the ICJ that, you might want to start by reading those developments so far.
No I know that. Only the Media is doing jack shit. And acting like it's self defense to kill 40k people, half children. 100+ journalists, 2 Million people on the constant run, near Hunger and dipshits attacking convoys. And before anyone says. Yes I condem the terror attack of Hamas. No not everyone is Hamas, its like killing all the iraqis because Saddam. Wtf?? What should have been done? Bomb the right places, then do a surgical attack. Wtf is mossad doing. They could easily do that. Anounce new elections and not let Hamas run. Thats it. Stabilize the region. But no. Thats not their goal. Their goal is divide & conquer. They did the dividing part. Now they conquer.
Surgical strikes won't stop Palestinian resistance. 'Stability' will only be achieved with total Israeli occupation and control. You can't just shoot the bad guys to fix things, Gaza is a ghetto and the West Bank is occupied territory. Naturally, the people of Palestine resent this and oppose occupation. The US invasion of Afgjanistan and Iraq to 'get the bad guys' just resulted in death and instability with little positive effect. Disease rates went up, ISIL formed, fuelled by local trauma and resentment and now the 'moderate fundamentalist terrorists' are back in charge. The conflict started before the Peel Commission and the Nakba and is still ongoing.
Yeah. But I don't think you are helping your point. Iraq and Afghanistan is what the Israelis are doing rn, only worse. They didnt get Bin Laden or beat Al-Qaeda. Which is still alive, only weaker. You know who got Bin Laden? SEAL Team 6. Kill their leadership and do strategic bombings. Killing civilians only helps terrorists, since it gives them more recruits.
This doesn’t make any sense. Israel can’t just announce new elections while leaving Hamas standing. You can criticize Israel for a million different things, but it’s so tiring seeing people whip up these bloodless solutions and act like it’s realistic. I don’t think you can possibly fathom what it would be like to have rockets constantly fired on you for decades and still being told that you can’t go to war to eradicate the organization doing it. It’s pure fantasy to imagine ANY country suffering a massive terrorist attack and then allowing the responsible party to keep operating. This doesn’t justify Israel’s actions nor their methods, but let’s not pretend there’s a solution that results in Hamas losing power without a war + plus many civilian casualties. I do believe Israel’s leadership is using the war to do a lot of bad and unnecessary things, but this is why Hamas is such terrible leadership for the Gazans. Everything Hamas does makes life worse for people in Gaza.
So bombing places where there is ACTUAL Hamas and assassinating their leaders is bloodless?? Carpet bomb civilians to pieces. Have fun with more Terrorists later. Genius move! This is fucking stupid. Sorry. If we ever learned anything from iraq and Afghanistan it's that bombing civilians will only empower radicals and terrorists. But Israel doesnt give a flying fuck. They dont care. They want the land. They want the people gone. For them the Oct 7. Terror attack is a bargaining Chip. They have zero plan for what comes after. And they don't give a fuck about the hostages. The families of the hostages keep criticizing Netanyahus government openly. Ofcourse he is killing the hostages by bombing everything. Hamas is a dictatorship. They barely won by 2% 18 years ago, when most palestinians alive right now havent been born. And immediately got rid of elections. Netanyahu helped them the whole time to divide the palestinians so no palestinian state can be founded. Eventually they would "win", enough people would leave and everything would be Israel. I NEVER SAID TO LET HAMAS OPERATE. WTF. YOU KILL THEM YOU KILL THEIR LEADERS ESPECIALLY. You DONT KILL CIVILIANS and bomb the whole place to Ruins and call them all Hamas, so it's okay to Murder 30-40.000 civilians.
“Ethnic cleansing” that takes a century and results in a higher population than before? Yeah, that conclusion makes total sense. 🙄
It does if you're not a disingenuous clown.
Protip: Using the "they breed like vermin" dog whistle only further proves what everyone already knows, and I'm honestly shocked you're collectively too mentally incapable to see that.
Israeli hasbara has lost it. The lies are getting more obvious and unhinged. The fact they expect anyone to believe that kids are reading Mein Kampf and praising Hitler is beyond absurd.
>“Ethnic cleansing” that takes a century and results in a higher population than before? Hey nobody said Israel was -good- at it.
Definition of ethnic cleansing: "The mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another." How is this not what is happening right now before our very eyes? Also this is such a bad talking point from israel. Just because the ethnic cleansing is not working as good at diminishing the population because yes people can still give birth to more people, duh, and the world population grew by 2-3x in the same timeframe, doesnt mean it isnt happening. You have to be fucking stupid to believe that. 5 million palestinians cant go back home, because they left the country for vacation or something else and have no right to return. Only country that does this. This is worse than Apartheid. Also what is happening in the west bank the last 70 years is basically ethnic cleansing, only very slowly. They amped up the pressure in the last year. Which lead to the attack od the Hamas. You don't have to be a nobel laurate to see where this is going long term. Settlers in the Westbank get rid of the palestinians by bullying or even killing them with the help of the IDF, just standing by or helping the settlers. Wtf is this if not ethnic cleansing. Now they want to try to steal the land of Gaza.
It's not like slow ethnic cleansing hasn't been the explicit goal of Zionists since at least the 30s. They know they can't just do a massacre and be done with it without major international backlash. Instead they take land and destroy/rewrite history piece by piece with the goal of creating a reality in which Palestine never existed and a group of plucky refugees settled in an empty wasteland, creating a Great Nation out of nothing but determination and G-ds blessing.
What happened to the Palestinian population of Acre, Haifa, and Jaffa where they were a majority and now they are an extreme minority? What happened to the Palestinians of Tiberius and Safed? What happened to the towns of Al-Majdal, Deir Yassin, and Tantura? What of the other 400 towns that were razed…
Do we have to keep pretending what Israel is doing isn't absolutely vile, with torture, humiliation and the mass killing of men, women and children?
Oops, my bad, thought you were... *checks notes* ... doing humanitarian work
Wait, how does that make it better?
Israel is a terrorist state.
Very normal, quick, bring up the hostages!
How does anyone hear this sort of statement and possibly think that Israel is the “good guy”
Someone will just spin that this is a lie and the settlers are defending themself. And then call someone a hatefull person for sharing this news
They're doing genocide you see... and they thought this wacky guy was helping people instead so they beat him up. Don't worry he wasn't. A simple mistake.
Dispicable
Those ghouls think starving a fully besieged civilian population makes them the good guys
You know that makes it worse, right?
Palestinian citizens don't really side with Hamas. But Israelis are definitely siding with their leadership.
Netanyahu can hang
Zionism is the 21st century Nazism
We’re arming the wrong side.
Fucking animals
I Hate Nazis as much as the next person, but I have to think your average German soldier in WW2 was a better person than these sh*tbags
It's amazing that people go "I hate Nazis" and then add a BUT at the end. No good sentence has ever continued after that buddy
Look I hate Nazis, but whatever my opinions, I really hope you and all of your loved ones have a great day.
Palestinians also deserve to have a nice day. Like one where their children aren't targeted with starvation and/or sniper bullets for the crime of existing on the land of their ancestors
What do you want from me buddy
I want you to take a stand for basic human rights for all humans. I want you to give a **** that there is a horrible genocide going on right now.
I pray that the war will end quickly, that the hostages are returned, that all people on all sides can finally simply live happily and not be exploited and used as mere pawns any longer in this cynical and disastrous way in which several powerful countries are currently profiting off of the wars happening right now in the world. I wish you and your loved ones a good day. I am not here to argue, goodbye. ❤️🏳️🌈
Well I hate Hitler but you have to hand it to the guy; He killed Hitler.
I have no time for any racists/facsists. Or the people who defend them. Especially the ones who do it with dubious logic.
that is a really weird thing to say. I really doubt it's true. I don't think you have to say that the Israelis are worse than Nazis
I didn't say Israelis. I was very clearly referring to violent, racist settlers who attack food convoys. Keep your red herrings to yourself.
Eh he might have a point. Your average soldier under WW2 Nazi rule was drafted, forced to fight by some means or another. Especially as they started to loae steam, lose friends, and get closed in on all sides. These settlers are likely volunteers who wholly believe in their mission, rather than bodies thrown into the meat-grinder of war.
There were quite enough volunteers in SS units who were elated to do what they were doing...
Notice they said *average soldier*. I think these settlers are probably more aptly compared to the SS, at least in this person's interpretation. I honestly don't know too much about the intricacies of Israeli Settlers but just the name qlone susgests they're fucked.
Yeah agree
Both sides are racist as shit against each other.
A great example of enlightened apathy. 'Both sides bad so genocide is meh'
If you check his post history he is self-proclaimed pro-israel. This is just one of those cases of "if the other side does something bad, they are bad, if my side does something bad, then we have to talk about how the other side is also bad"
Slightly surprising but not any more disappointing. It shows how indefensible Israels talking points are now when their defenders have to resort to blackpilling because they have nothing left.
Are you really that simple you think that an incredibly complex situation can be boiled down to a few comments in the past? You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right? Where it stands now is I think Israel and BB have gone way too far and it's becoming genocide. I think many Israelis have lost their humanity and look at Palestinians as subhuman and have become Nazi'ish themselves. I also think Gazan's as a whole look at Israelis the same way. Random civilians (non-Hamas) were kidnapping/raping people on 10/7. I think the entire region has two peoples poisoned against each other and I don't know how it can be fixed even if I was some sort of political leader. It's fucked.
>You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right? The conflict didn't change since last month, when you outright wrote you were "pro Israel and IDF" >Random civilians (non-Hamas) were kidnapping/raping people on 10/7. Source? Because from where I'm sitting your post reads as "a small group of israeli are bad people and they might maybe be starting to commit a tiny bit of genocide (but not there yet!)... but palestinians as a whole are rapists, especially the civilians"
> You do realize this conflict has been changing over time and my opinion can change, right? > > The conflict didn't change since last month, when you outright wrote you were "pro Israel and IDF" Wow you're borderline lying here...basically acting like Fox News. How about you be honest. Let me correct you. 1. [My comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1bv1d82/idf_chief_apologizes_as_details_emerge_of_strike/kxxn11b/) was Apr 3, well over a month ago. 2. I said "I'm pro Israel and IDF **but this is out of hand and they don't know what they're doing. You can't just kill everything that moves. They need to dial it back.**" 3. Hell yes the conflict has changed in the last ~45 days. > Source? Are you living in an echo chamber or something?? Everyday Gazan civilians jumped in the action just like these settlers. I have an open mind and am fully aware Israel is likely committing war crimes/genocide and my opinion has changed as the conflict evolved. With more information, are you able to reflect and reconsider your positions? Here are a few sources: https://freebeacon.com/national-security/gazan-civilians-involved-in-every-stage-of-hamas-hostage-scheme-released-israelis-reveal/ https://www.ajc.org/news/what-is-known-about-israeli-hostages-taken-by-hamas https://www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/ And before you say *"oh they come from Jewish sources"* or something. These are from the hostages themselves and you can find other articles if you want. And here's a source that shows how Hamas's death toll numbers are a statistical impossibility - https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/1bedkvl/hamas_casualty_numbers_are_statistically/ They're literally making up numbers. An example is a day where they report many women casualties, there should also be large numbers of children or vice versa. > Because from where I'm sitting your post reads as "a small group of israeli are bad people and they might maybe be starting to commit a tiny bit of genocide (but not there yet!)... but palestinians as a whole are rapists, especially the civilians" From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're in an echo chamber, not using critical thinking, and unaware that your understanding may not comport with reality.
>basically acting like Fox News Oh sure I can tell you are very discerning of what news sources are trustworthy and neutral, like "freebeacon.com" and "a random reddit thread from /r/military" But sure, I'll take the word of the hostage. Not being sarcastic, I searched and found news about her on actual non-rag news websites, so I'll believe it. Though it does again go back to what I said; isn't it funny that you, who are claiming to think both sides are bad, somehow only link to famously right-wing biased pro-Israel media websites *even* when the news exist in less sketchy sources? It's like those are your main source of information or something. But as for "literally making up numbers", this one is reeeeally fake. You're linking to an /r/military post, that itself links to an article in "the jewish chronicle", that itself refers to a story published in "Tablet Magazine". With, for example, an unlabeled graph showing an unnaturally steady growth of deaths, whose source is... the author or the article himself. Ah, but he says he sourced it from OCHA, so we can just check it out, right? Let's see https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties OCHA says less than 1000 people were reported dead in all of 2023. Can we take a look on the graph the author of the article made? https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers https://api.thejc.atexcloud.io/image-service/view/acePublic/alias/contentid/19uwcb8n1jjso65d7r5/1/graph-jpg.webp?w=585&q=0.9 o look it *starts* at above 6000 reported deaths. So yeah, you're taking as news sources the word of a rando in a right wing nutjob sub, who gets his info from a right wing nutjob news site, who themselves link to an EVEN MORE tabloid-esque right-wing nutjob site, who themselves got the source from a guy who outright huh... what's the word you used? Ah yes "They're literally making up numbers." Also even when inventing numbers he can't lie correctly. First he says the data must be faked because it's too uniform and natural numbers are more random, then he says it has to be fake because the number of infants dead is random, as opposite of following a logical pattern. And even at the end of the original article, this dude who just outright makes up numbers, says this; > The total civilian casualty count is likely to be extremely overstated. Israel estimates that at least 12,000 fighters have been killed. If that number proves to be even reasonably accurate, then the ratio of noncombatant casualties to combatants is remarkably low: at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1. By historical standards of urban warfare, where combatants are embedded above and below into civilian population centers, this is a remarkable and successful effort to prevent unnecessary loss of life while fighting an implacable enemy that protects itself with civilians So the article literally ends with "yeah we are like killing more civilians than combatants but like, at an acceptable rate of killing civilians, it's barely three civilians per two combatants." So congrats, you are literally defending an article written say "it's okay for Israel to target civilians because they could be targeting more". And yet, you are veeeeeery concerned about both sides equally, right? >From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're in an echo chamber, not using critical thinking, and unaware that your understanding may not comport with reality. Oh noooo don't hit me with the meaningless reddit buzzwords, whatever shall i dooooo
> Oh sure I can tell you are very discerning of what news sources are trustworthy and neutral, like "freebeacon.com" and "a random reddit thread from /r/military" Oh, so you deny stripping my comment of context and changing the meaning of what I said?? I said YOU were like FoxNews and you're trying to pivot to the credibility of the sources I provided instead of addressing the substance, which is you grossly mischaracterized what I actually said. I can tell you don't bother reading and you're refusing outside information. I made the mistake of assuming you knew how reddit worked because it's not a "random reddit thread". There's an article linked as well, but I provided the reddit thread so you could read the comments if you liked as well. I can also tell you don't bother researching and probably just form your opinion based on headlines. "FreeBacon" is Washington Free Bacon, which is a right-leaning website. You conveniently ignored `AJC.com` and `TimesOfIsrael.com`. I just took the top links from Google because I assumed you'd do your own fact checking and find your own sources. You seriously think those random websites are my "sources of news"?? How naive can you be? It's just the top Google results. I'm not going to spend hours spoon feeding sources when you're going to try and disprove it anyway, so what's the point? > Ah, but he says he sourced it from OCHA, so we can just check it out, right? Let's see > https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties > OCHA says less than 1000 people were reported dead in all of 2023. > Can we take a look on the graph the author of the article made? WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you did all this "research" and you didn't even read OCHA's **BIG NOTE AT THE TOP**?? Allow me: > Casualties in the context of the ongoing hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel, which started on 7 October 2023, **will only be added to this page once these incidents have been independently verified.** The full database is password protected and their flash updates are lacking. The rest of your random rant is you making crap up and trying to pick apart a data science professor with your bunk logic. Like I said...you've made up your mind, cherry pick the information you want, refuse outside information, etc. You don't like information that fits your narrative, so you make up excuses to put it aside. It's like trying to have a discussion with a Trump supporter about the election being stolen. You'll find an excuse for everything.
Hey, have you noticed? This comment chain started because I said "AlexHimself doesn't actually think both sides are bad, he's pro-Israel and is just using 'both sides' as a way to deflect from a news source that says Israel did something bad" And to deny that you... linked to multiple pro-Israel articles, including an article that was completely unrelated to the discussion about how Israel isn't killing as many civilians as people claim, and said that palestinians as a whole are rapists. Did you like, forget that you were trying to pretend you weren't pro-Israel halfway through writing the second paragraph on your first post? > you don't bother reading and you're refusing outside information. I literally conceeded that yes, palestinian civilians did kidnap Israelis, which I did not know. I know you are very eager to rant, but you don't get to pull the "you aren't willing to admit to anything" after a post I literally did so. At least not without looking like a fool. >I made the mistake of assuming you knew how reddit worked because it's not a "random reddit thread". There's an article linked as well, Which I referenced further down the post. Did you forget to delete this paragraph after reading the rest of it, or just like before you forgot what you had written just after writing it down? >"FreeBacon" is Washington Free Bacon, "FreeBacon" would be an even worst source than "FreeBeacon" It's amusing you're trying to defend your sources and you can't even get their names right. > conveniently ignored AJC.com and TimesOfIsrael.com When you post three links and one of them is shit, saying "hey only 1/3rd of my sources are shit" isn't a good defense. >I just took the top links from Google I know you did. That's usually the extend that people like you research things. As a matter of fact, perhaps if you had done something further than just grabbing links from google at random, you'd have noticed the AJC article doesn't even mention civilians kidnapping Israelis, only the other two articles do. You probably googled something like "civlian kidnapping israeli" and by accident grabbed a link to an article about "hamas kidnapping israeli civilian", and didn't bother to actually check it. >You seriously think those random websites are my "sources of news"?? How naive can you be? "Uh, uh, those websites I used as a source of news aren't my source of news!" Sure thing, dude. >I'm not going to spend hours spoon feeding sources when you're going to try and disprove it anyway, so what's the point? Wow, way to betray yourself. Literally "I'm not going to bother researching my points, because no matter how hard I try you'll find arguments against them" In just one sentence admitting you are both unable to argue, and also that you know no matter how hard you were able to argue, those arguments wouldn't survive scrutinity. >WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you did all this "research" and you didn't even read OCHA's BIG NOTE AT THE TOP?? Allow me: Did you honestly write "WOWIE 🤣🤣🤣🤣"? Jesus man get a hold of yourself. But anyways, very well, you go me on that one, the author didn't get the numbers from that, he got from the snapshots. So, let's see the snapshots https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-20 Well the total seems to check out roughly to where the graph starts, so I'll give it that. But! And this is where the magic starts, Here's what the author says; "This regularity is almost surely not real. One would expect quite a bit of variation day to day. In fact, the daily reported casualty count over this period averages 270 plus or minus about 15%" The numbers aren't real because there are no day-to-day variation. That's his argument. Let's look at some of the numbers; 27/10 298 fatalities 28/10 at least 377 Palestinians killed 29/10 302 Palestinians were killed in Gaza 30/10 [I couldn't find numbers] 31/10 [I couldn't find numbers] 01/11 280 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, 02/11 256 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, 03/11 196 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, 04/11 231 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, 05/11 243 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, That's weird... there seems to be some *gasp* variation in these numbers. What gives? Well, turns out that when the author says "average between 270 plus or minus 15%", that is a very tricky way to say "between 230 and 310, with some exceptions that go below and above those numbers as well" Meaning there can be a difference of 80 deaths per day, and a few outliers, and it would still be on that "average". What's more, turns out even if the average is that, some of the days wildly break it such as 28/10 and 03/11. "But then how come his graph is so uniform??" Because he is doing a clever trick by showing the total of deaths instead of the deaths per day, which zooms out the graph and makes the difference in numbers seem smaller. The difference between 6298 and 6675 is harder to spot than the difference between 298 and 377 Here's how a graph with the actual deaths per day would look like, without using the total; https://imgur.com/a/Emxute0 As you can plainly see, there is a huge variation in the number of deaths per day, and the author was just fudging it up to trick guillible people.
"you think i'm pro-isreal? then check out these pro-isreal articles. that'll prove you wrong."
*"You think you can take me seriously in a discussion? I refuse to judge the information but instead try and pick apart the source without any evidence becuz Im smurt."* ☝️
This is a great example of extrapolating what you want from something that's not there...I didn't say "meh" and that's your editorializing.
Yes but Israelis started the conflict by expelling 650 thousand Arabs who'd lived in the region since the stone age from mandatory Palestine in1948 and then occupying the west.bank and Gaza in 1967 and creating an apartheid state. The resistance to apartheid in South Africa used terrorism at times too but their grievances were legitimate no group of people have the right to create an apartheid state and keep another people living in squalor perpetually.
Clashes started way before the Nakba, look up the hebron massacre for example. Also the Palestinians didn't live there since the stone age or whatever, they are arabs who are native to the arabian peninsula, came with the Islamic conquest a long time ago, but not stone age. The west bank was occupied by Jordan in 1948, not Israel. And the Palestinians use violent resistance against civilians all the time, not sometimes... besides the second intifada there are dozens of civilian Israeli victims every year. You got so many facts wrong...
Genetics show Palestinian Arabs are in fact descended from the people that have been living in the area since the stone age. Emit doesn't even matter the Jewish people left the area en masse around 2000 years ago are we going to turn the map back 2000 years? Nobody believes that the map should be turned back 2000 years if they did they'd be calling for every African, Asian and European(including African, Asian and European Jews) to leave the Americas and Australia because that land belongs to those continent's indigenous peoples and those people have more than a right to live as small oppressed minorities in their own countries. Because that's what Israeli Jews will tell you they not only have a right to live in the area but have the right to be a majority there too and control the whole land.
Hebron happened as a reaction to Zionist migration efforts and British support for the Zionist project. It was all part of the same project. Also Palestinians are native to the region. It’s absurd to pretend they descend from the Arabian peninsula when there’s records indicating their continued presence in Palestine since antiquity.
"Abstract The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/
Except the definition of Aparthied is two sets of laws for one people. And Palestinians namely aren’t Israeli citizens - the 20% of Israeli citizens that are Arab have the same legal rights as Jews Also saying it started with expulsion kind of misses the 7 Arab armies that told people to leave so they could use their villages as barracks to exterminate the Jews. 1948 was a war of independence if we want to be overly simplistic. And the Arabs were the ones that initiated the war, and lost. They of course are entitled to be upset with partition, but they only have themselves to blame for not participating in it at all and then instead choosing war and losing And they’ve been given many chances at their own state and self determination, but they refuse to stop being terrorists and demanding a do-over for their failed genocide in 1948
When specifically were Palestinians offered their own state?
And this gives Israel the right to discriminate against them, beat them drivers, assassinate journalists, and destroy aid going to them?
No of course not, settlers are generally reprehensible and if they assaulted drivers and destroyed aid they should be prosecuted But none of that has anything to do with whether Israel should be treating Israeli citizens and Palestinians the exact same And while I wish Gazans had more freedom, I also can’t really blame Israel for not having open borders and amicable relations with Gaza while they are ruled by Iranian-backed Hamas that have been trying to wipe out Israel and indiscriminately murder civilians for decades. You really think that if Israel had removed all restrictions on Gaza things would have been different? Hamas, and their supporters around the world aren’t chanting for a 2SS, they want all of Israel. All that would have changed is Hamas would have been able to bring in more Iranian weaponry and something like October 7th probably would have happened a decade ago
Uh, and the fact that Palestinians need to have aid trafficked in the first place never crossed your mind that Israel is causing the situation to transpire? Or that Israeli military and police seem to be okay with the attacks and encourage the sales of anti-tank weapons to settlers? Furthermore I notice how you mentioned Gaza; but strangely you’ve forgotten the West Bank even though Israel is officially not invading the West Bank because of the events of October 7th. So, I think it’s very telling that you want to make this about Hamas; but are conveniently ignoring the country that’s existed for 75 years that has caused the events to transpire as they have.
The fact they need aid trafficked in is a question of geography. If you weren’t aware Gaza shares almost its entire border with Israel. And to my knowledge prior to Israel taking control of Rafah aid barely flowed in through Egypt since Palestinians kept assaulting the aid trucks (since they get appropriated by Hamas if not). Hamas doesn’t have any other land borders and I didn’t see any of their Allie’s bringing aid in through boat And yes I mentioned Gaza because Hamas are the rulers of Gaza, while the PA notionally is in control of the WB. And the WB governance is in place as setup and agreed to by the PA. If they want greater autonomy they can negotiate a more comprehensive peace deal And of course it’s about Hamas. Hamas has been carrying out terrorist attacks and firing rockets at Israel for decades. And while the PA is barely any better, Hamas and their sugar daddies Iran are dead set on the destruction of Israel and hence are the group Israel is at war with
Is it a question of geography or policy? https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/killing-starving-palestinians-and-targeting-aid-trucks-deliberate-israeli-policy-reinforce-famine-gaza-strip-april-2024#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20starvation%20as,the%20entry%20of%20commercial%20goods%3B >The use of starvation as a weapon has been an official political decision from the first day of the war, as declared by the Israeli Minister of Defense, and was implemented in integrated stages, which have included tightening the siege and closing the border crossings; preventing the entry of commercial goods; destroying all components of local production and food sources; increasing the Gaza Strip population’s reliance on humanitarian aid; and turning it into their main source of food.
If we’re talking policy, then it was probably a pretty dumb policy of the government of Gaza to declare all out war against its neighboring country that it relies on for a significant amount of its essentials even during times of calm Probably doesn’t help that Hamas digs up water pipes to turn into rockets and was more interested in building 500km of tunnels and building a never ending stockpile of rockets rather than actually investing in Gaza’s future
You’re deflecting. Is it an intentional policy, by the Israeli Government, to starve Gaza? Keep in mind, I have the exact quotes by government ministers and Gaza is going through a man-made famine. So I suggest you choose your next words wisely.
But one side holds all the power
I mean...is anything inaccurate about my comment?