Gold toilets in all the subway bathrooms!

Streetsblog opinion pieces 😍. We really need a congestion pricing mega thread tho. Also, if it’s truly “suburbanites” driving into the CBD, then surely we can give an exemption to city residents right?

I have more sympathy for someone living in the suburbs who probably moved there because the city is too expensive, than I do for people who live in the CBD and choose to have a car when you don't even need one.

Staten island is cheaper than most of NJ.  Taxes in Jersey are ridiculous 

You absolutely need a car in staten island tho. Probably by city they mean Manhattan.

And at least speaking as someone from Jersey, it's not exactly simple to go in and out of the city conveniently. If you want to go from my hometown to the city on a weekday afternoon, there's zero trains between 4 and 9 pm. Another town thankfully has more trains but it's still annoying. If you don't live in a town with a train station, you might also not be allowed to park in the public commuter spots during peak hours.  You could drive to Secaucus junction, but god the parking rates keep going up anyway. The PATH isn't much easier. For the record, I support congestion pricing but it is true that suburbanites don't often have great options

In this case, you should be contacting your representatives in New Jersey. Murphy continues to defund NJ Transit, and instead of preparing for congestion pricing by improving public transit service, he decided to oppose it instead.

First of all I'm in NYC now and second, that's... not really the point. My hometown has a single track so you can't have trains going through in both directions all day long. The parking restrictions have existed since I was a kid. And Christie did absolutely fuck up nj transit with no fix in sight. But even other companies like Rockland coach just kind of show up whenever they want. In general buses aren't reliable despite Jersey  having the most connected bus network of any state (state, not city).    The Secaucus junction parking is a private company. Afaik both NY and NJ Port authority collect toll money for the bridge. Murphy can't force more parking garages, but NJ Transit would absolutely benefit by building some. On that note, even if the state government isn't actively funding nj transit, they are expanding into real estate and own a bunch of expensive condos near rail stations. Can't speak to their financials but it's not like they don't have multiple revenue streams.  At the end of the day what do you want then to do? Jersey is driving culture as is nearly every location in the country outside of NYC. Most people's lives don't revolve around commuting to NYC

Well this is a thread about congestion pricing, which will fund transit in NYC and NY suburbs. Frankly NJ car culture has no relevance in NYC/NY suburbs work on public transit. If people in New Jersey want better public transit, they need to demand it from their electeds. Either it needs to be made a priority by them and concede some of the car infrastructure to make it happen, or keep the current car culture and substandard public transit.

Okay? And this is a thread about implementing a toll on drivers in Manhattan and the question of the impact on suburbanites. And like it or not, the car commuters is something that NYC needs to decide whether it's accommodating or not, and if not then how do they enforce that? My dad doesn't care - he basically has the train schedules memorized at this point, but my mom refuses to take transit no matter how much you improve it. Many suburbanites feel the same. Who said people in Jersey want better transit? I wish they had, but most people don't care.

There’s NYCHA public housing within the CBD with parking for residents.

Yup. A huge percentage of the people that got priced out due to gentrification are black and Hispanic too. God forbid they want to drive to work instead of spending 70 hours a day on busses and trains.

Not to mention half the Black communities in Brooklyn and Queens are transit deserts FAR from the nearest subway stop.

And guess what?? VERY few of those people drive into Manhattan and pay for parking. This was all already studied. The impacts of congestion pricing are overwhelmingly on rich people. But of course, that's who the governor serves.   Meanwhile the rest of us normal people get asthma, traffic, pedestrian fatalities, noise, and 15B less for the MTA. All so some rich people from Westchester can drive their car to Wall Street without a fee. Can't wait to vote against Hochul. 

I don’t disagree if you’re talking about driving to an office job in midtown. But downtown, it’s completely different. They aren’t paying for parking. They are parking on the streets. If you watch Broome St or Canal St downtown, half the cars are hoopties driven by POC. I actually support the congestion pricing, but just putting out what I see.

Can you define the term "rich" as used here?

Exactly. People in deep queens and Brooklyn and in the Bronx are way more likely to be lower income and way more likely to own a car.

Spare us your disingenuous bullshit. Poor people are more likely to own a car in NYC?  They're the ones driving into Manhattan during business hours?  You do know this was already studied, right? And you're wrong. 

Have you even been to deep queens, brooklyn, the Bronx, and Staten island?

> Spare us your disingenuous bullshit. Poor people are more likely to own a car in NYC?  Yes actually. Venture outside your bubble to other parts of the city. You’ll learn something. > They're the ones driving into Manhattan during business hours?  Yes, depending on who they work for. There’s a reason why the East River bridges are free and get congested during morning/evening rush hour. > You do know this was already studied, right? And you're wrong.  Studied by who? People that surveyed a small portion of drivers?

Thanks to AI, comment go byebye

The city is so expensive because there is literally a handful of places to live an urban, walkable life in the US.  This is solely because of zoning policies preventing growth and urbanization

Or maybe if we didn't spend billions of dollars giving free stuff to "migrants" we could spend more on fixing our crumbling infrastructure. Same guidelines that apply to a plane crash. Put the oxygen mask on yourself first before you put it on others.

Mostly suburbanites

We had a commuter tax silver and Bruno killed it.

I am actually really pro congestion pricing. But gotta tell you most working class people I know are very much anti congestion pricing.

People hate paying for something that used to be free,theirs this figure that the pro congestion pricing people bring out of a working class person making 60k driving into Manhattan daily when in reality it’s the working class family that drives thru Manhattan maybe once a month to get to NJ. Why would they want to pay?

They could have carved out exceptions for this type of stuff but didn't.

I would have been more on board with it if they did make reasonable exceptions, but they didn't. Delivery vehicles, for one thing. I would have exempted them because they have no choice but to make deliveries during business hours. Charging them would just increase the costs of doing business, which would be passed on to consumers. Even "spreading the costs out", like proponents rationalized, would still lead to an cost increase. No getting around that.

The fee for a delivery vehicle is a tiny fraction of their overall costs and in fact the time savings alone from the reduction in gridlock makes it cheaper to make deliveries, not more expensive. That’s why business groups within the congestion zone are so vocally pissed off at it being cancelled

The fees all add up, They're already paying tolls. Regardless of how you're trying to spin this, every trucking association said that the increased costs will be passed on to consumers. Also business groups in Chinatown, which will supposedly benefit from congestion pricing, were vehemently against the plan. They said it would ruin their businesses. Their opinion matters, too.

Well now hochul is proposing a $1 billion tax on businesses so nobody wins lol

All reports I've read said it's DOA. They're going the IOU route for now.

IOU is dead too.

Every delivery driver who has commented on congestion pricing says this saves them money. People’s times has value. A commercial driver isn’t cheap. $15 to speed up deliveries is a cost saving. 

Most I've spoken with were vehemently against the plan and said it would raise overall costs, which would be passed on to consumers. There is no going around that. Not to mention, the trucking industry sued to stop this. Sounds like they thought it was a bad idea. If they were so for this plan, why take legal action against it?

I think the same reason the teachers union sued to prevent it - not because it has any inherent bearing on teaching or trucking, but because a lot of their members are suburban drivers who are mad about this for personal reasons. my guess is there are not a lot of truck drivers living in Manhattan. 

You're also forgetting that the TWU also sued to stop it. These are the folks congestion pricing was supposed to help!

Carve outs are a slippery slope. Once you start doing it, more and more groups are gonna ask for it, which renders the program ineffective.

As someone that drives into Manhattan MAYBE once or twice a month if it’s not work related I would have supported congestion pricing if I got 2-4 monthly free trips tied to my ezpass.

Because working class people have cars too. Not everyone takes the subway nor wants to be forced to.

Working class people aren’t parking in FiDi though…

The CBD extends to 60th street

I didn’t realize the congestion pricing plan only applied to people who parked in the financial district

Fine soho, midtown, west village, hudson yards, grammercy you name it; the vast majority of people parking in the congestion zone are upper middle class. I live in Hell’s Kitchen and none of my neighbors drive it costs a fortune to park here

Makes sense. https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Final-SNY0424-Crosstabs.pdf P5, Q24: -*64%* of people making under $50k oppose congestion pricing. 59% of people making $50k-100k oppose it. -64% of NYC opposes it as well. -67% of women polled oppose it, compared to the 58% of men.

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>The older I get, the more I admire the Singaporean model. I like aspects of the Singaporean public safety model, and a lot of it would be popular here. But charging 100k USD for a 10-year license to own a soccer-mom van may be considered a tad excessive here.

Read it again. The poll breaks out by region, of which NYC is its own column.

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When data doesn't support your narrative, proceed to ignore. Straight out of the Trump playbook. I will make sure to save this next time you question someone "questioning" data.

You linked to a New York state poll, not a NYC poll. This is inaccurate but I'm genuinely curious if NYC residents, the ones who have to deal with the pollution, congestion, incessant horn honking and increasing traffic deaths among other things cars bring to our city, support congestion pricing. Siena College Poll Conducted by the Siena College Research Institute April 15 - 17, 2024 806 NYS Registered Voters MOE +/- 4.1%

This poll does split up respondents based on location. NYC residents are broken out, too. If you have access to polls showing the opposite results, I welcome you to share.

I'm curious to see an extensive poll and not a poll of 300 something NYC residents among 806 New York state residents. We should break this down by boro too, but I don't think 314 people is a sufficient amount to get accurate data one way or the other. Like of the 314 how many were Staten Island residents? This information would be helpful. Besides, it's a law passed by the state legislature and I'm uncomfortable with the governor just deciding they don't like laws the Senate and Assembly passed and deciding to single-handedly scrap those laws.

OK...but if there were polls which showed the opposite results, why haven't they been shared? Not a single one has been posted. Why? Because they probably don't exist. But if you can find one, please post it to prove me wrong. Also, many Assembly members and Senators are agreeing with Hochul's move. Mine, who initially voted for it, now says it should be abolished all together. Remember, congestion pricing was passed as part of the budget, not as a stand alone bill. How many of of the Senate and Assembly would have voted for it if it was separate?

That's how most polls work and Siena College is one of the top pollsters in the country. Just because you don't like the result doesn't make it invalid. We aren't talking a 49/51% split. Everyone loves data until it doesn't suit their narrative. You would be Exhibit A.

They're scrambling and stretching like Mr. Fantastic trying to disprove Siena College, which I hear is pretty gold standard for polling. But give them a random Streetsblog graph or Miser post and it's treated like gospel lmao

thankyou

Holy shit, facts. That loser spams posts here like it's his job.

Most polls sample more than 314 people. To me 314 is completely inadequate to get an accurate assessment. I worked at Marist Polls years ago when I was up there so I'm not completely unfamiliar with the methodology of polling.

If this poll had the results you wanted, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Did you just look at the header and not the table? It segments the regions to NYC, suburbs, and upstate. That's where I got my 64%. 64% of NYC polled responses either somewhat or totally oppose it. Ironically, if you look at the whole sample, so including all three of NYC, suburb, and upstate polled responses, the percentage of 'opposed' actually goes down a percent to 63% according to the table.

Paradoxically, more people upstate support it than downstate!

I live in queens, most of my friends are in Brooklyn, Astoria or Manhattan and all of them are for congestion pricing. I’m for it, I went to undergrad at hunter college at 68th street and Lexington ave. The amount of vehicles is insane, the college is right a fire station and police station both of which had such headaches getting around

All the working class people I know don’t drive cars into the eight square miles of congestion very often 🤷‍♂️ Our two anecdotes are equally worthless.

I think many people are under the incorrect impression it will raise uber / lyft prices dramatically. Also in my experience many people have no idea the exact details and think you will hit with a toll on entering the FDR / Westside highway.

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I loved the comment the other day from someone who lives in the city and wants less congestion so their bus rides are faster.... okay, subway may not always be the right option but is there a reason its not used because a lot of folks I know have safety concerns (case in point the guy who was almost robbed at gunpoint on the 7 recently)

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Its more my speculation on why they didn't take the subway but a lot of people have concerns and while I myself do not share them, I can't dismiss them out of hand. More needs to be done.

Hahha i understand and agree. I feel that way about food delivery as well. I am just explaining how other people feel.

The only people I know who are against it are people who own cars in the congestion zone and people who live on Long Island.

I want to reiterate that I am PRO congestion pricing. But find it weird I really haven't met a single person who is pro congestion pricing, most either dont care or are very much against - these are hyper progressive people also. And I meet A LOT of people from all over NYC in my industry, I work with different people almost every single day from all different parts of NYC and economic brackets. I find what you are saying VERY hard to believe. Many people bought cars during the pandemic. Many women do not want to take the subway because they feel unsafe. Also I think many people are under the incorrect impression it will raise uber / lyft prices dramatically. Also in my experience many people have no idea the exact details and think you will hit with a toll on entering the FDR / Westside highway.

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I think it has activated a lot of different interest groups. But I do not think the view represents 10% of NYC, I think most of NYC is very uninformed about the actual plan of congestion pricing and most would be pro congestion if properly educated.

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If the MTA was competent, there'd be no real* reason for congestion pricing. *they'll still try to find a way to take your money.

There’s been a lot of opposition to congestion pricing on r/nyc.

Yup. And polls will prove you correct! [https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Final-SNY0424-Crosstabs.pdf](https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Final-SNY0424-Crosstabs.pdf) Two-thirds of NYC residents are against congestion pricing. There is universal dislike for the policy. According to this poll, not a single group is for it.

People don’t care because they don’t drive so it doesn’t impact them.

I doubt that. They don't care I think because they are low information voters. They don't really pay attention to things like that. A lot of people are like this. It's a full time job to pay attention to complicated legislation.

Seems like most of NYC disagrees with you. [https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Final-SNY0424-Crosstabs.pdf](https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Final-SNY0424-Crosstabs.pdf) Please look at Page 5, Q24. NYC residents overwhelmingly reject congestion pricing. Not to mention, people of all political stripes think it's a bad idea. Looks like you need to broaden your social circle.

Most people opposed bike lanes, CitiBike, pedestrianizing Times Square, and the indoor smoking ban too. Now they’re all seen as obvious and popular. Thats how congestion pricing played out in other cities too. Once people saw the benefits (namely fewer cars) it became accepted. We would never make any big changes if we went strictly off polling prior to a change.

In case people forgot about the pushback to CitiBike... yeah, it got a lot of flak, especially from the press. Here's [a quote](https://brooklynspoke.com/2012/05/17/a-capital-idea/) from 2012: “It’s going to be so annoying when everyone comes around on #bikenyc and NYers are all so proud they invented bikeshare.” Some fun links: * WSJ opinion: "the majority of the citizens are appalled" [not true, she was just a hater]: https://video-api.wsj.com/api-video/player/v3/iframe.html?guid=C6D8BBCE-B405-4D3C-A381-4CA50BDD8D4D * https://gothamist.com/news/how-many-parking-spaces-will-citibike-share-gobble-up * https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/may/27/new-york-bike-share-test-ride * https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/05/12/our-bike-snob-tests-out-the-citibike-and-finds-it-a-weighty-chore/ * https://gothamist.com/news/rankled-up-in-blue-citi-bikes-color-is-killing-nycs-aesthetic Lots of people protested the creation of the docks, one lawyer bragged about preventing their installation * https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/05/25/soho-residents-protest-bike-share-station-say-bicycles-would-get-in-the-way-of-public-art/ * https://nypost.com/2013/06/23/city-moves-citi-bike-stations-from-richest-areas-while-letting-other-contested-racks-stay/ * https://web.archive.org/web/20130702223012/http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/05/06/residents-fight-citi-bike-program-in-3-more-suits/

Every single candidate to replace Bloomberg said they were going to rip out all of his bike lanes… until a well-timed poll came out showing majority support for the first time ever. And they all immediately flip-flopped to supporting bike lanes. That’s how long it took people to warm to the idea of bike lanes in NY… like 10 years under Bloomberg. But now 2/3 of New Yorkers want more of them.

Well said. People really struggle seeing the big picture

If you polled people and asked **“Should interest rates be 1%”** I guarantee that >60% would respond that they should, and you’d probably even hear positive responses from people who’ve never borrowed money in their life and have no intention of ever buying a house or car. But we don’t make interest rates 1% because that would be *really, really dumb*. The Fed is deliberately insulated from politicians because popularity does not always equal a functioning economy. Politicians controlling prices of things directly is how we got the clusterfuck that is NYC parking: when you underprice a limited good, that ensures it will be unavailable to everyone who doesn’t have an abundance of free time. Free parking guarantees that none is available, in the same way that **free roads guarantees traffic**.

this poll is going to be incorrectly shared as an argument against congestion. 44% of those polled don't even drive into manhattan which is the crux of the entire issue

The poll is just expressing the sentiment that NYers have on this issue. It really shouldn't matter whether they drive into the City or not. 2/3rds think it's bad policy. Maybe congestion pricing advocates should have done a better job at explaining the benefits. They did not and this is where we are.

what??? that doesn't even make any sense . if they aren't going to be affected because they don't drive into the city then their opinion on it doesn't carry weight on if it should be implemented . moreover if your overall sentiment was true then the state wouldn't and shouldn't have wasted so much time and money on trying to implement it. also the WHY should be impotent here. is it bad policy because people think it's good for the environment or because the mta or do they think it's bad because they don't want to pay.

So, you're basically saying that since I don't go into the City everyday, my voice doesn't matter? I pay taxes here, too. As do millions of other NYC residents who don't go into the City that often. More NYC residents live outside Manhattan than inside it. And they're saying they think implementing congestion pricing will be detrimental to them and that it's poor policy. And because the overall sentiment was AGAINST congestion pricing, that is why the governor killed it. Sure, her decision was purely political, but she probably saw the numbers and was warned by other party figures that they risked losing even more seats to the GOP, who most certainly would use this as an election issue. GOP is already gaining in the outer boroughs and suburbs. Why risk more loses? And "why" doesn't really matter. Again, maybe congestion pricing advocates should have done a better job at explaining the benefits. They really did a bad job and arrogantly assumed it would have universal support.

you're cherry picking from a bad poll. NYC residents aren't saying that. the ~60% figure of those that are polled is 60% of NYC residents from the overall pool of NYS residents I.E that # figure is not at all representative of what NYC residents feel in this issue. im also saying that of those polled , 44% don't go into manhattan at all. that clearly does not represent you because you do, for whatever reason , drive into the city sometimes. the dems will lose seats to the GOP because they are incompetent not just because of congestion pricing and if you truly felt that way about your tax dollars than it is more beneficial to you to not see the half billion dollars already spent on the program pissed down the drain because the governor is playing games. Moreover, the increased economic stimulus due to improved transit service is a net benefit to everyone. and you do realize that The gov is now going to come up with some hairbrained scheme to make up for that lost revenue like another income tax right? would love to hear from you people on where that money that was to be generated is going to come from.

Look, if you don't believe this poll and you think it's inaccurate, why don't you find something else that proves me wrong? Are there polls showing NYers supporting congesting pricing? I have never seen one posted here. If they existed, congestion pricing advocates would be crowing about them, but they're not because they don't exist. Silence on that speaks volumes. But again, I welcome you to prove me wrong and provide some data points that show the opposite. As for wasted tax dollars, how about the billions being spent on migrants? Or the MTA overspending on the 2nd Ave line? Or the missed revenue from fare evaders and lack of will to go after them? Also, there will not be a tax increase this session. At best, MTA will get some form of IOU. Tax increase during election season is suicide. And the Dems lost seats last election because of terrible campaigning. They ignored outer borough and suburban concerns about crime, cost of living and quality of life issues. They want to gain these seats back and with cost of living being a top concern with these voters, a cost increasing measure like congestion pricing is a surefire loser. And finally, there is no guarantee that the quality of the transit will be improved with congestion pricing. The MTA doesn't exactly have a stellar track record with their spending. Why should we believe that they'd spend this new windfall and more prudently? Public transit ridership is down compared to the pandemic because NYC residents are either working from home or avoiding it and driving because they disapprove of the service. Onus should be on the MTA to make things better for their customers rather than treating them with threats if they don't get their way.

> you're cherry picking from a bad poll. Lmao when it doesn't fit a certain narrative the poll is suddenly cherry picked and "bad". But streetsblog graphs and Miser posts must be gospel and the holy bible right? https://saintsonline.siena.edu/s/1722/18/home.aspx?sid=1722&gid=2&pgid=1995&cid=4922&ecid=4922&crid=0&calpgid=401&calcid=3771 Apparently Siena is one of the top statistical pollsters in the country. For now I'll trust it over whatever streetsblog or Miser post that gets thrown around here.

all the figures and references cited are from the sienna poll lol. just because they are a top pollster doesn't mean the information that's presented and the way it's presented isn't disingenuous and flawed. sry it hurts your feelings or whatever tho

>So, you're basically saying that since I don't go into the City everyday, my voice doesn't matter? I pay taxes here, too. As do millions of other NYC residents who don't go into the City that often. Well it's a good thing we're not talking about taxes... This is about a location specific **toll** that doesn't really affect you since you don't go into the city that often, and when you do you have plenty of alternatives to get into the city without having to pay the toll. >More NYC residents live outside Manhattan than inside it. And they're saying they think implementing congestion pricing will be detrimental to them and that it's poor policy. "They" (the people polled) are not necessarily **NYC** residents, "they" are **NYS (NY State)** residents, who may not even pay NYC taxes on top of not being affected by this toll.

Congestion poll would change driver behavior, including which routes to take. So even if you don't drive at all into the city, you will be impacted. And second, if you want to use that line of logic, you are disenfranchising everyone at some point. Should I not vote on issues related to education because I don't have kids even though it's my tax dollars going to it? The mental gymnastics to cope is truly gold medal worthy.

the goal of congestion pricing is to take your butt out of your car and onto a train or bus. sure some people are going to continue to sit in traffic but ultimately that isn't the end goal. very convenient of you to ignore that. of course you bring up the kids/ no kids angle. that's not what i'm saying. you get to have an opinion, obviously, but your voice shouldn't be the loudest in the room because you don't know what it's like to live that experience

I’m sorry, what? The fact that they don’t drive into the city, and they are therefore unaffected by this policy, shouldn’t matter? Tell me why these people’s opinions should matter, as someone who lives in Brooklyn and commutes into Manhattan 5 days a week. Also, NYS residents =/= NYC residents. Your use of the term "NYers" in this case is ambiguous and misleading. Nowhere in the poll that you linked does it specify that all of the people surveyed were specifically NYC residents.

Every chart in the pdf has a segment for region: NYC, Suburbs, and Upstate. So when we're saying 64% oppose congestion pricing, it's referring to the NYC responses that oppose it. On the last page you can see ~39% of responses were from NYC. While not perfect, it's somewhat representative of NY state as a whole, as ~44% of NYS residents are in NYC. So did you *actually* look at the link?

> Nowhere in the poll that you linked does it specify that **all** of the people surveyed were specifically NYC residents. >On the last page you can see ~39% of responses were from NYC So basically, the majority of the responses of the entire poll were not even NYC residents. > So when we're saying 64% oppose congestion pricing, it's referring to the NYC responses that oppose it. So of the ~314 (39% of 806) people who DO live in NYC that responded to the poll, about 201 (64% of 314) of them oppose congestion pricing to some extent. So what you are telling me is I should believe that the majority of the 8.2+ million people that live in NYC oppose congestion pricing based on the responses of a couple hundred residents (about 0.002% of the population)? There are at least 2-3 times as many LANGUAGES spoken in NYC compared to that sample size.

Well yeah, this sample size is perfectly adequate because it supports my narrative.

Why aren’t I or anyone in my social circle included in this poll? TIL 806 NY *State* residents = “most of NYC”

I don’t own a car and would rather get kicked in the balls repeatedly than drive in Manhattan.   I’m anti-congestion pricing because it’s nothing but a money grab for a corrupt incompetent organization like the MTA.  They MTA needs mass firing and criminal charges against the leadership. Not more money. NYC has one of the most expensive and one of the shittiest trash covered, piss soaked, Crumbling subway systems in the in the world. Fuck the MTA.

Imagine a world where the MTA has full transparency in their operations and individual management and executives are liable for things going overbudget and over schedule

>NYC has one of the most expensive and one of the most shittiest Source: r/nyc’s hatred of nyc There are issues with the subway; with r/nyc’s hyperbolic nature, this subreddit comes off as increasingly out of touch

If you charge people, fewer people will drive and we have less congestion, cleaner air, faster ambulance response time, shorter commutes, fewer traffic jams, etc. The MTA sucks but don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Cancelling congestion pricing doesn’t reform the MTA. 

They could literally pour gasoline on the money and light it on fire and congestion pricing would still be enormously beneficial. Gridlock and excessive air pollution are extremely expensive. A 20% reduction in congestion (which this program is expected to achieve) makes it cheaper for businesses to make and receive deliveries, ambulances will bring patients to the hospitals faster, buses will be faster, and people who actually need to (or just prefer to) drive won’t be stuck in traffic hell and will see their travel times drastically improve. It will assist in unclogging crosswalks that are currently often blocked by cars and trucks, as well as make parking easier to find. It will also dramatically reduce air (and not to mention noise) pollution, which is significantly higher while idling, and causes significant and expensive medical problems that lead to increased mortality. In short, the bulk of the true value of the program isn’t even funding the MTA, it’s literally in reducing the negative impacts of gridlock

The only people I know who are for it are on this subreddit. Everyone I know who lives in NYC without a car thinks it's a bad idea.

100 % . And tbh... those ppl that were for it.... bet you they were a transplant. They don't care about ppl in the communities but actually want to turn this into another city or country where they're from.

Just like how people who make 35K a year are very against raising taxes on people who make over 400k

Im not sure thats a good analogy. Congestion pricing wont effect rich people. $15 is nothing to them. But if will effect somebody who is not rich. Thats what most people understand and focus on. But they dont consider all the greater good that will hopefully come with congestion pricing including improvements of public transportation.

The vast majority of working class people in NYC take the subway to work.

True. But not always and they take cabs a lot, especially late night or when there are subway issues. A lot of people are under the impression (INCORRECTLY) it will substantially raise the cost of lyft / uber. I think you would be shocked how many people think it is a fee EVERYTIME you enter the zone. As opposed to once a day. And constantly people complain to me "so I am going to get charged everytime I go up the westside highway / fdr?" I think a lot of resistance to congestion pricing is an education issue.

People will change their minds after they see the results and ten years from now everyone will say they always supported it. They don't even need to educate anyone, just move it forward and let people see the difference. It's currently the law anyway, Hochul can't just undo it with a fucking video, that's not how laws are changed. This is so fucking stupid, she's a complete moron.

I certainly hope your right. I was really dissapointed by the sudden change. I think its good to try new things. Especially as somebody who used to drive a delivery van for work back in 2008, I am shocked by how much more traffic and congestion exists in NYC compared to back then. I also think Hochul is probably under a lot of political pressure, though I don't quite fully understand exactly from where it's coming from.

Most working class people I know take the subway and the bus. Most rich people too. 

You must not know a lot of women.

“Women don’t take the subway” - the woman knower 

Imagine thinking thats what I said. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/nyregion/nyc-subway-women-crime.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/nyregion/nyc-subway-women-crime.html) [https://nz.news.yahoo.com/78-nyc-subway-not-safe-201900653.html](https://nz.news.yahoo.com/78-nyc-subway-not-safe-201900653.html) [https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2018/11/11/survey--3-in-4-women-have-experienced-harassment-on-public-transportation](https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2018/11/11/survey--3-in-4-women-have-experienced-harassment-on-public-transportation) [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/10/new-yorks-subways-safe-statistically-women-crime-policing](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/10/new-yorks-subways-safe-statistically-women-crime-policing) Most of this is probably just imagined, the subway is infact VERY safe. But saying the fear and reluctance to ride the subway isn't real is absurd. You just don't know any women and thats fine.

How will cutting $15 billion of MTA spending make women feel safer riding the MTA? 

Are you serious? I AM PRO CONGESTION PRICING, but I understand how people don't pay attention to how the sausage is made. All they see is prices potentially going up and are low information about how it all works.

MNYCGA

Let's lose more democratic NY congressional seats due to sanctimonious progressivism. Apparently, the 2022 midterm election wasn't enough.

Single issue voters are short sighted no matter what side of the aisle they are on

This. Caused by the type of people acting like if the dems just finally have the balls to do it we could get national healthcare.

I mean if the dems are just going to act like republicans, why would anyone vote for them?

> I mean if the dems are just going to act like republicans, why would anyone vote for them? Considering that the overwhelming majority opposes it, the voters are actually getting what they wanted by voting dem.

I'm sorry, have you not seen how the republicans act? with them in charge youd be looking at policies involving tax breaks for any car who hits a cyclist

New York democrats are fucking scum and a healthy Republican party that didn't put up absolutely insane candidates would do the state and city a lot of good.

> a healthy Republican party that didn't put up absolutely insane candidates But that's not the world in which we live. In an ideal world you're right. In an ideal world we'd be able to vote for a second party to give Democrats a reality check. But doing that now gives us worse outcomes than whatever the Democrats will give us. This is how we ended up with a stacked Supreme Court for at least a decade which will torpedo any potential large scale progressive legislation that gets passed by Democrats.

I only care about having my ‘team’ in power so much as it results in policy that I like getting implemented. Losing congestion pricing is far more significant than any federal policy that has the chance to be passed in the next few years.

Constantly backing away from difficult choices is also partly why Democrats have an enthusiasm problem with their base.

The Democratic Party in the US is often defined more by their opposition to a unified GOP than they are by being their own unified party. In most countries in the world, the Democrats would be multiple parties ranging from center to center left to far left to socialist. They operate as a coalition government within a single party framework. Which is why they have more registered voters but far less efficacy per voter on issues like this.

I respect that you're being upfront about it being a conscious choice.

Opinion: congestion pricing could have worked if they improved transit first, had proper exemptions and discounts, and communicated it better

Isn’t one of the main complaints about the existing proposal that it won’t meaningfully address traffic caused by rideshare drivers? They effectively got a partial exemption so it’s seems like more exemptions just leads to more “it won’t lower congestion” arguments (which is true, the more people you exempt, the less it will work). You need funding to improve transit. The congestion charge was that funding. We’ll see if the state will provide the funding but I don’t think it’s likely. And communication is always just a vague complaint often used by those who willfully choose to not be informed. Not to mention, if we’re a month out from implementing something and the issue is communication is inadequate, the solution would be to improve communication, not scrap the whole thing.

A motorcycle has to pay 3 times as much as a full size SUV rideshare which is bullshit. Every ride uber/Lyft should have to pay the full $15 congestion fee because they are consciously choosing to use a car in the congestion zone no different than any driver.

I agree. I’m just pointing out that when you people say “exemptions are needed” these are the exemptions you get. And really, when most people say exemptions are needed, they often mean their specific type of travel needs to be exempted.

What about the disability exemption? Do you know how hard it is to get a disabled parking permit in Manhattan? That was the threshold to get a disability exemption for this charge.

It seems perfectly reasonable to use the same standard. Do you have a good reason why the same standard shouldn’t be used? And if we’re appealing to what’s based for disabled individuals, we should probably choose the option that adds 20 ADA accessible stations.

Because the standard leaves lots of disabled people high and dry? Again, it's almost impossible to get a disabled parking permit in Manhattan. Lots of people who need them and have them outside the city can't and won't be able to get them. What do they do, roll down the subway steps?

So then work towards changing that standard. Otherwise what happens? You create multiple standards which is confusing and will effectively still result in the most restrictive standard applying. And for what it’s worth, a disabled person having to pay the same amount a non-disabled person does is considerably less of an issue than a disabled person being unable to use a transit station when a non-disabled person can. But hey, perhaps if instead of you only pretending to care for disabled individuals when their interest align with yours and you actually focus on how to improve living with disabilities, you’d support the option that reduces the number of subway stations that only have stairs. You identified the problem. Are you willing to solve it?

My dude is an issue because they have to use above ground transit. Because they can't use the transit stations. And we have multiple standards that's the issue. The Manhattan standard is way higher

You’re not doing a good job of actually addressing my comment. If the issue is the multiple standards, then work towards changing that. And in case you aren’t aware, the congestion charge is directly funding the renovation of stations to be ADA compliant. If you are at all actually concerned with stations not being ADA complaint, only 1 of the options addresses that issue. So do you support that option or is your concern for ADA accessibility just a false belief that you’re only pretending to support because you think it aligns with your desires?

"the congestion charge was that funding" come on how naive can you get

What other funding source do you propose? We can actively see the support other funding measures have at the state level now that they’re trying to replace it. Hint: there isn’t much support.

There isn't much support for this either 🤷

Enough to get a law passed mandating it

this is nonsense.. less exceptions is the way to go. The benefits are enormous.. once the program started you would seen the benefits. This is shortsighted cowardice and weakness. I'm from Queens and have a home on the island. Congestion pricing would have been GREAT for the city long term and even short term

The disability exception sucked

They announced increased service to correspond with the start of congestion pricing. More subway service, a new bus network, and the biggest increase in LIRR service ever. They should’ve announced it sooner because this became a common misconception though.

They should have made these changes before, not just announced them

The increase was going to start before congestion charging.

👍

Well we actually don’t know if it would have worked. It was never tried. You mean that it may have not be halted at the 11th hour by an inept governor, but I actually think there was no chance of it passing. People called in favors to get this killed, and those people have money. Politically it makes no sense to do it at this point, it’s a pretty risky move that could backfire. I get the sense that letting it continue would have less risk. It’s funny how some democrats only take huge risks when it comes to shit policy decisions

This was a good decision

It was not a good decision. The opposite in fact 

This sub is in shambles while 2/3rds of New Yorkers Rejoice.

But according to supporters, the poll is “flawed”!

What the tds is this? Give some pros and cons, yes, but the trump connection is a real strech

She’s such a corrupt piece of shit

Hochul stopped a policy that probably would have hurt Democratic changes in November. If anything, this is a move to prevent giving Trump too much power.

The problem with that line of thinking is the most needed changes often are the biggest and least popular ones initially, particularly ones as complex as congestion pricing, and if we're going to punt every long-term win in the name of party politics there's little hope for our future irrespective of Trump. Real leadership requires occasionally going to bat for key issues and not being a total slave to the polls. And waiting until the 11th hour is complete garbage, regardless of your stance on the issue. In the real world, playing games like that has significant consequences, as we are currently finding it. If Hochul was dead set on axing congestion pricing, she should've made that clear months ago, if not longer, so alternatives could've been pursued. But she specifically timed this to be a) as close to elections as possible, and b) as close to the end of the legislative session as possible). Extremely shitty. She will never live this down.

I’m not saying she did this in a smart way. But I’m also not convinced congestion pricing is going to solve anything. I agree that real leadership demands actual,leadership, but that has long been sorely missing and even a brilliant political like FDR had to wait before doing the right thing in WWII. Still, I rather postpone congestion pricing if that may mean less chance for the Republicans to truly fuck over the whole country, because that’s what will happen if they take Congress and the White House.

Don't even own a car atm and take the subways all my life but the current congestion plan is flawed when the main contributors (FHV and their riders) of congestion is not even paying their fair share - you know it's a flawed plan. They paying less in vs private cars and hiding/won;t acknowledge that fact. Also this flaw is not even addressed by pro congestion folks and why fhv should pay less. Only logical explanation is large overlap of pro congestion folks that are also pro uber simps and don't want their favorite form of car travel impacted. want to solve congestion - hike surcharge on fhv and their riders by a lot. THere no need for CBD

I haven’t seen anyone defend the taxi/uber carve out and I’ve consistently said I wish they paid the full price. But that was taken off the table very early on and a flawed congestion charging scheme is better than none. London changes the details of their charging scheme every few years. Better to launch it and adjust as needed.

> seen anyone defend the taxi/uber carve out We got folks here in this sub who thinks a roaming fhv is no big deal and won't do much congestion vs a private car that reach destination and parks all day and spewing inaccurate facts that fhvs are paying same as everyone else

I genuinely haven’t seen such comments, just you repeating that you’ve seen them over and over again. Seems like a strawman honestly.

Any talk of more fees, taxes, tolls without a full and complete audit of the mta should be considered DOA

Go save taxpayer money and do it for free: https://new.mta.info/transparency/foil

BTW MTA is a government funded agency; their books are completely open for anyone to see.  You can look up the salary of any employee, look up any contract, look up all their financial statements, etc. 

Hahaha I love to see them cry about it, it must look like a panic show in r/micromobility

They’re hours away from pedaling all the way to Albany if they don’t get their way

It's amazing to see people who live in the NYC 'bubble' think that 99% of the nation is not entirely dependent on cars and trucks for transport, commerce, and supply chains. Just because they want to ride their bikes everywhere and have the luxury of living in some of the priciest real estate in the US that has public transit they think the whole world has to conform to their idealist utopia of no cars because cars bad. Seriously, I want these people to try getting around to areas that have minimal public transit. Go ahead and cry to a crowd of folks from Staten Island or anywhere in Eastern Queens and tell them they should be punished for having a car. It's pure manhattan-centrism and NIMBY bullshit, as well as a cash grab. Cars are bad when they drive through Manhattan but perfectly fine when they get rerouted to the Bronx (because why would these people on reddit ever visit the Bronx)

i commented on one thread that its annoying when people say “just take a train” when there are parts of queens with no train access and minimal buses. one person responded: “just drive to subway stop then” pure brain rot. if the goal is to reduce cars and traffic how is DRIVING to a stop going to do that??

Or cars are bad but don't touch my uber. FHV and their riders not even toll the same amount as a private car and they root cause for said congestion first place.

Ok but this is about Manhattan. The fuck is your point?

the trump derangement syndrome continues lol

Reasonable exceptions for residents. An actual IMPROVEMENT PLAN now before the increase in fees and therefore a Massive increase in riders. Milestones. Phases. A FUCKING UNDERSTANDABLE PLAN. The MTA - who has raised rates, fucked up and burnt money on OMNY, and struggles on the weekend to get you anywhere - just says “Trust Us!” $7.50 starting fee. Phased up over 5 years to 12 or 15. And promises and plans of BUSES rolling the moment it goes into effect. That’s what London did. That’s why it worked.

If manhattanites are going to price normal people out of living in the city where they work, they should be accountable for maintaining the systems that allows to come into the city to work. Idk if the answer is congestion pricing, but they are reaping the benefits of that system and are letting it die on the vine. Because the RICH rich don’t take the subway.

State has cut funding for 30 years they really wanted the bonding authority from this

lmao - OPINION of an idiot.