Key Takeaways:
R211 Option Orders likely to be cut resulting in R46s staying in service longer.
R68/A & R62/A cars are likely to stay in service beyond 2030 with no funding available for R262 & R268 contracts.
M9A contracts to replace the existing M3s on the LIRR & MNR are likely out too.
Upcoming 2025-2029 is now in jeopardy without Congestion Pricing, along with no viable Plan B alternative.
Where does this $15 Billion in bond revenue come from? Wasn't the congestion pricing only supposed to raise something like 1.5 Billion? Were they planning on using the revenue from congestion pricing to borrow $15 Billion and just kick the can down the road? If so (dont want to jump to conclusions) some banker missed out on a pretty penny. Sorta gross.
I see. When I was looking at the budget on the MTA's website I saw an $8 billion hole. Which confused me because it seemed like the surge pricing didn't fill the gap. Now I understand what they were planning to do. Sorta disheartening honestly because those bonds just buy them 2 years. After that we're back in the same place. A permanent solution needs to be found.
It'd be $15 billion in bonds for a 5 year capital plan. And congestion pricing may bring in closer to $3-4 billion/year, so if that happens, they could pay back the bonds much sooner, or not borrow in the future.
Hmm but the proposed budget says they're burning $8 Billion annually so $3-4 Billion still doesn't fill the hole right? Am I misreading it/looking at the wrong thing?
https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics
I think you're looking at the wrong thing. That's the operating budget. Congestion pricing funds only the capital budget. The current 2020-2024 capital budget is $55 billion, of which congestion pricing is supposed to fund $15 billion of through $1 billion bonded.
Same thing I’ve been saying when railing against this cockamamie scheme - especially if it got folks to not drive in Manhattan and the revenue projections fell short - but the “DRIVERS SUCK” squad break out their inner Vancome Lady every time:
29% of the capital plan was funded by congestion pricing. What is not talked about is the new taxes on high end real estate and elimination of the internet sales tax advantages, that equal 10 billion or 19% of the budget.
The entire MTA life line was depending on congestion pricing.
If that doesn’t raise eyebrows about how mismanaged this company is….
Like, how dangerous is it to leave your entire financial downfalls on congestion pricing?
That’s dangerous.
The MTA Capital Plan was based on revenues earned on congestion pricing because it was a law signed into effect 5 years ago and created for the first time in its history a dedicated funding source for capital projects.
Yeah, seriously. When will New Yorkers learn throwing money at problems has never fixed anything. There’s a clear incompetence in our leadership, if not overt corruption.
Stop.
Don’t let congestion pricing be a scape goat for MTA doing a shittier job than they already do.
With how many people use the train, and what they charge, there’s no excuse not to do a better job as is. Congestion pricing would’ve been huge for MTA but i, and most other New Yorkers, are sick of the piss low expectations we have for our local leadership when this is one of the most well resourced cities on the planet as is.
Get the fuck over congestion pricing or allow this loss to do more damage than it ever would’ve done good to MTA. Pick one.
Holy crap. If the entire MTA was betting on a 5% budget increase every year then it WAS NOT HANDLING ITS MONEY WELL TO BEGIN WITH.
Edit: let’s try an analogy. If you’re making $100k/year. Do you think your entire life would fall apart if you didn’t start to get $5,000 extra?
I’m glad someone finally mentioned the A word.
So many people are obsessed with the A word, not realizing or knowing that you can’t manage the capital budget for a regional transportation network the same way you balance your own checkbook.
Okay I want CP, but there is no reason this should have as a negative effect as their painting it. Like, obviously they survived a long time without the revenue from it.
I love the r46/ r68/r62. The upgrades to them have given them new life. They don’t make cars like them anymore. I am fine with them upgrading vs replacing them. These cars can last 60+ years if maintained well
Upgrade them? HA! They don't have the money for that. They'll just run the wheels off them and then force them along until they can afford replacements.
A look at the MTA budget^(1) indicates that some fools designed this budget to fail. Who includes a one shot revenue (ARPA FEMA funds) as a major part of operating? Stupid. Operating funds have to come from recurring, year over year revenues. In other words, the fare increases that they did not and will not do in 2023 and 2025.
The entire transit system is in a deflationary period, substantially fewer people are traveling into and working in NYC since 2020. IN fact, in NYC there is less payroll to tax. Revenues from the MTS Mobility payroll tax (which taxes based on payrolls and sole proprietor income in the MTA region (NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland and Orange, even if workers do not work or visit NYC, that's fair, lol) have dropped substantially.^(2)
Let's face it. The MTA is mismanaged by its leaders and more importantly, by the State. WHolesale leadership change and retstructuring is needed.
^(1) [https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2023/03/MTA-Prelim-Report.pdf](https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2023/03/MTA-Prelim-Report.pdf) ("Last year’s Adopted Plan proposed a reinstatement of this proposed fare increase in July 2022 and additional increases in 2023 and 2025. Failure to implement this fare increase was expected to result in the loss of approximately $1.8 billion in anticipated revenue that had been planned to cover MTA expenses through 2025. However, in the MTA’s updated February 2022 Financial Plan, the Authority stated that the 2022 fare increase would be averted due to the influx of COVID-19 stimulus funding.")
^(2) Payroll Mobility Tax and MTA Aid. The MTA projects $1.3 billion of revenue from the Payroll Mobility Tax and MTA Aid for NYCTA in Calendar Year 2023, a $175 million decrease from the Final 2022 estimate of $1.5 billion and a $741 million decrease from the $2.1 billion of revenue collected in 2021. In 2012, the State Legislature passed a law granting the City authorization to establish a “Hail accessible interborough licenses” (HAIL licenses) for livery cabs to provide hail services in certain underserved areas of the City. After overcoming legal challenges, the law was implemented during the second half of 2013.
The MTA is so full of shit it’s amazing. The current capital program is $51 billion but missing out on $15 billion puts the next one (which will surely cost more than $51 billion) in complete jeopardy.
At this point this has to be beyond the MTA, bikers, and cosmopolitans with the pushback anti-congestion pricing is getting. I’m sure if you follow the money you’ll see some pissed bankers mad they are losing out on billions.
My guess: QBL and Culver are both getting/gotten CBTC, so likely closing the gap on 6th and 8th Avs.
CPW might be next, but that would involve also working on 4 Av, West End, and Fulton St, so maybe not.
IIRC Fulton was their next priority, so I guess that wouldn’t be surprising. If we’re pausing SAS I think it would be wise to prioritize Lexington Ave to increase much-needed capacity (which SAS was supposed to do)
I think when it comes to subway cars and new buses, They'll get federal funding for it. At least for option II. If the dummies kept some R32s in service, even if they barely ran them. They could have gotten leverage to get more federal funding by claiming we have 60-year-old subway cars running. This shows how stupid they are.
They can probably get some leverage when it comes to the R46s since they turn 50 next year.
The subway system is already awful with crime way up. Always murders including stabbings, shootings, and the like. Also loads of robberies and assaults and mentally insane people. Congestion pricing would not have helped one bit as they already had the resources they needed and squandered it. They can eliminate fare evasion and quit giving money to illegals and they would have all the money they need to improve the system.
Key Takeaways: R211 Option Orders likely to be cut resulting in R46s staying in service longer. R68/A & R62/A cars are likely to stay in service beyond 2030 with no funding available for R262 & R268 contracts. M9A contracts to replace the existing M3s on the LIRR & MNR are likely out too. Upcoming 2025-2029 is now in jeopardy without Congestion Pricing, along with no viable Plan B alternative.
Where does this $15 Billion in bond revenue come from? Wasn't the congestion pricing only supposed to raise something like 1.5 Billion? Were they planning on using the revenue from congestion pricing to borrow $15 Billion and just kick the can down the road? If so (dont want to jump to conclusions) some banker missed out on a pretty penny. Sorta gross.
It's basically the equity piece of the plan. Raise $1 bil, use it to raise $15 bil in bonds, improve service, increase ridership.
I see. When I was looking at the budget on the MTA's website I saw an $8 billion hole. Which confused me because it seemed like the surge pricing didn't fill the gap. Now I understand what they were planning to do. Sorta disheartening honestly because those bonds just buy them 2 years. After that we're back in the same place. A permanent solution needs to be found.
It'd be $15 billion in bonds for a 5 year capital plan. And congestion pricing may bring in closer to $3-4 billion/year, so if that happens, they could pay back the bonds much sooner, or not borrow in the future.
Municipal bonds cannot be paid back early.
Oh, that's unfortunate. At least if CP raises more than expected, they wouldn't have to bond out as much for future capital plans.
Hmm but the proposed budget says they're burning $8 Billion annually so $3-4 Billion still doesn't fill the hole right? Am I misreading it/looking at the wrong thing? https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics
I think you're looking at the wrong thing. That's the operating budget. Congestion pricing funds only the capital budget. The current 2020-2024 capital budget is $55 billion, of which congestion pricing is supposed to fund $15 billion of through $1 billion bonded.
I see thank you.
Same thing I’ve been saying when railing against this cockamamie scheme - especially if it got folks to not drive in Manhattan and the revenue projections fell short - but the “DRIVERS SUCK” squad break out their inner Vancome Lady every time: 
you don’t know what you’re talking about but at least we’re all used to it by now
I should be used to stupid people trolling - yet I keep replying to folks like you.
This would only affect option order II, Option Order I was approved and likely paid for already.
We’re so cooked
because the rich and powerful cooked us
The article's title is inaccurate. It should say "Subway service *will* deteriorate due to MTA budget shortfalls, Hochul’s end to congestion pricing."
29% of the capital plan was funded by congestion pricing. What is not talked about is the new taxes on high end real estate and elimination of the internet sales tax advantages, that equal 10 billion or 19% of the budget.
Source up.
Page 42 [capital program](https://new.mta.info/document/10511)
The ones that already exist from the FY 2020 State Budget? Those “new” taxes?
The entire MTA life line was depending on congestion pricing. If that doesn’t raise eyebrows about how mismanaged this company is…. Like, how dangerous is it to leave your entire financial downfalls on congestion pricing? That’s dangerous.
The MTA Capital Plan was based on revenues earned on congestion pricing because it was a law signed into effect 5 years ago and created for the first time in its history a dedicated funding source for capital projects.
Yeah, seriously. When will New Yorkers learn throwing money at problems has never fixed anything. There’s a clear incompetence in our leadership, if not overt corruption.
You absolutely have a point… its scary
I was so hoping for the M9s. The M3s are so shit now there's no reason to keep them in service just to break down every other day.
Careful you hurting the feelings of the nostalgia foamers
I really don't get the fascination for them
It’s all a game I bet it starts Jan 1st 2025 and will be announced a week after Election Day
Stop. Don’t let congestion pricing be a scape goat for MTA doing a shittier job than they already do. With how many people use the train, and what they charge, there’s no excuse not to do a better job as is. Congestion pricing would’ve been huge for MTA but i, and most other New Yorkers, are sick of the piss low expectations we have for our local leadership when this is one of the most well resourced cities on the planet as is. Get the fuck over congestion pricing or allow this loss to do more damage than it ever would’ve done good to MTA. Pick one.
Holy crap. If the entire MTA was betting on a 5% budget increase every year then it WAS NOT HANDLING ITS MONEY WELL TO BEGIN WITH. Edit: let’s try an analogy. If you’re making $100k/year. Do you think your entire life would fall apart if you didn’t start to get $5,000 extra?
It would if I'm greedy and need to act histrionic about not getting the extra 5k to line my pockets with
Here comes the MTA, blaming someone else for their incredibly shitty management of funds.
What can you expect from a city trapped in a country gripped by austerity?
I’m glad someone finally mentioned the A word. So many people are obsessed with the A word, not realizing or knowing that you can’t manage the capital budget for a regional transportation network the same way you balance your own checkbook.
Is it “end” or “delay?” I believe CP will happen before too long.
I hope you're right. Maybe she'll be more brave after the elections
The earliest is 2027
Based on what? There has been no statement from the governor saying when it will go into effect (if at all)
Okay I want CP, but there is no reason this should have as a negative effect as their painting it. Like, obviously they survived a long time without the revenue from it.
I love the r46/ r68/r62. The upgrades to them have given them new life. They don’t make cars like them anymore. I am fine with them upgrading vs replacing them. These cars can last 60+ years if maintained well
Upgrade them? HA! They don't have the money for that. They'll just run the wheels off them and then force them along until they can afford replacements.
Has anyone considered a drastic increase in tolls on the MTA crossings?
That’ll just push more traffic to old bridges that already have structural issues
R46s are tired, R68s could last long, they aren't bad cars, The R62s are still reliable and the R62A's only flaw is their HVAC units.
this person is not a regular subway rider anyway
A look at the MTA budget^(1) indicates that some fools designed this budget to fail. Who includes a one shot revenue (ARPA FEMA funds) as a major part of operating? Stupid. Operating funds have to come from recurring, year over year revenues. In other words, the fare increases that they did not and will not do in 2023 and 2025. The entire transit system is in a deflationary period, substantially fewer people are traveling into and working in NYC since 2020. IN fact, in NYC there is less payroll to tax. Revenues from the MTS Mobility payroll tax (which taxes based on payrolls and sole proprietor income in the MTA region (NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland and Orange, even if workers do not work or visit NYC, that's fair, lol) have dropped substantially.^(2) Let's face it. The MTA is mismanaged by its leaders and more importantly, by the State. WHolesale leadership change and retstructuring is needed. ^(1) [https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2023/03/MTA-Prelim-Report.pdf](https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2023/03/MTA-Prelim-Report.pdf) ("Last year’s Adopted Plan proposed a reinstatement of this proposed fare increase in July 2022 and additional increases in 2023 and 2025. Failure to implement this fare increase was expected to result in the loss of approximately $1.8 billion in anticipated revenue that had been planned to cover MTA expenses through 2025. However, in the MTA’s updated February 2022 Financial Plan, the Authority stated that the 2022 fare increase would be averted due to the influx of COVID-19 stimulus funding.") ^(2) Payroll Mobility Tax and MTA Aid. The MTA projects $1.3 billion of revenue from the Payroll Mobility Tax and MTA Aid for NYCTA in Calendar Year 2023, a $175 million decrease from the Final 2022 estimate of $1.5 billion and a $741 million decrease from the $2.1 billion of revenue collected in 2021. In 2012, the State Legislature passed a law granting the City authorization to establish a “Hail accessible interborough licenses” (HAIL licenses) for livery cabs to provide hail services in certain underserved areas of the City. After overcoming legal challenges, the law was implemented during the second half of 2013.
Thanks for assembling this info and providing some context.
I'm all for congestion pricing but let's be fair the only one to blame is the MTA and their mismanagement from everything.
Don’t be a sap. Service would deteriorate no matter how much money the MTA is handed. The MTA is one of the worst-run public agencies on the planet.
It’s been deteriorating lol
Money mismanagement plain and simple
Just get people to pay the fare
This was because the G was going to go 8 cars wasn’t it.
The MTA is so full of shit it’s amazing. The current capital program is $51 billion but missing out on $15 billion puts the next one (which will surely cost more than $51 billion) in complete jeopardy. At this point this has to be beyond the MTA, bikers, and cosmopolitans with the pushback anti-congestion pricing is getting. I’m sure if you follow the money you’ll see some pissed bankers mad they are losing out on billions.
What do we think we see for 2025-2029 for CBTC?
My guess: QBL and Culver are both getting/gotten CBTC, so likely closing the gap on 6th and 8th Avs. CPW might be next, but that would involve also working on 4 Av, West End, and Fulton St, so maybe not.
IIRC Fulton was their next priority, so I guess that wouldn’t be surprising. If we’re pausing SAS I think it would be wise to prioritize Lexington Ave to increase much-needed capacity (which SAS was supposed to do)
tbh CBTC probably won't happen because of the lack of CP
But they can pay 1.3billion in overtime
if jobs need filling and theres no crews to fill em, you ask existing crews if they want OT, plain and simple
Sounds more like a broken system
the job has constant attrition, thats just what it is
“It is what it is” - except for at most every other respectable transit system in the world.
I think when it comes to subway cars and new buses, They'll get federal funding for it. At least for option II. If the dummies kept some R32s in service, even if they barely ran them. They could have gotten leverage to get more federal funding by claiming we have 60-year-old subway cars running. This shows how stupid they are. They can probably get some leverage when it comes to the R46s since they turn 50 next year.
Save up money to leave the US
The subway system is already awful with crime way up. Always murders including stabbings, shootings, and the like. Also loads of robberies and assaults and mentally insane people. Congestion pricing would not have helped one bit as they already had the resources they needed and squandered it. They can eliminate fare evasion and quit giving money to illegals and they would have all the money they need to improve the system.
Can you give a source for “crime way up”?
[удалено]
Umm how about no
How about yes
