Lost count how many times the 2nd Ave Subway been delayed in history
Should have extended to 125st for phase 1 with the drilling machines in the ground
A competent agency/state would've secured the necessary funding and approval for phase 2 while phase 1 was underway. That way construction could've just kept continuing right after P1 opened.
It wont be done till East Harlem is gentrified.
Phase one didnt go a single block past the Upper east side. 2nd ave subway will never go a single block into a poor neighborhood.
And the city is waging a war against east harlem. 2nd ave subway is part of it.
(Tho tbh, a lot of east harlem residents dont want the 2nd ave subway up there either. With the way this city has a lack of protection for poorer residents, better infrastructure here would just mean theyd get gentrified out faster)
Truly blows my mind how Hochul just makes this decision and then goes silent by not offering any other solution to help aid these projects. This is the biggest middle finger she could give. I would feel a little better if she made the effort to bail them out on these projects so they could continue, but the fact all of this is just left in purgatory is beyond me. How spineless of a leader could you be
All while being blackmailed by the DNC into voting for Biden because the alternative is fascism. I have never felt as powerless and defeated as I feel now.
>Truly blows my mind how Hochul just makes this decision and then goes silent by not offering any other solution to help aid these projects.
She can't come out and say that she'll flip again after the election or that defeats the point or actually makes things worse by rallying anti-congestion charge voters.
I do wonder if she under-estimated the effects her last minute delay would have. Did she talk to anyone at the MTA before her surprise announcement or did she just talk to Hakeem Jeffries and some election analysts about polls in the suburbs?
Unfortunately they did have to. Legally couldn’t proceed without the signed VPPP. Whether or not that’s ministerial/discretionary is TBD (it’s likely the former), but the VPPP is needed to continue
As a civil engineer who works in construction, I'm disappointed at the average person's awareness of how much infrastructure costs. It's expensive just like everything else. There's a bias against the MTA because its budget is paid with taxpayer money.
Probably would shock you at much Amazon, Delta, or McDonalds spends each day.
Yes the MTA is wasteful, but most of the MTA's efficiencies come from politics. It's very difficult to sign subcontracts, hire workers, and procure materials when budgets and deadlines are political footballs.
Starting and stopping projects on a political whim like this costs money. We've got a half billion dollars sunk into the enforcement of congestion pricing. It's ludicrous that 17 years of planning and negotiation have gone out the window because of scaredy-cat democrats.
It's got nothing to do with scaredy-cat democrats, and everything to do with the fact that this is an election year. Congestion Pricing is not a popular thing citywide. Yes, there's a decent amount of support for it in Manhattan, but everyone else in the city hates the idea. She canned it because she needs the votes. A Republican wouldn't have ever entertained it at all.
And that's the democratic party being afraid they will lose the election on the back of congestion pricing. I'm definitely not saying the republicans would do a good job of anything. The democrats lack conviction and don't seem to be able to get anything done -- but I guess they're better than the alternative, so I guess I'll be voting and volunteering for them again.
I mean, if the majority of the city doesn't like the idea, why is it wrong for it to be cancelled? At the end of the day, it's pretty much just a tax on people who work in Manhattan but live in other boros which are already underserved by mass transit options. It's not like the MTA was gonna take that money and build a subway in Staten Island or expand the subway into new areas in Queens or Brooklyn. Furthermore, the MTA has, historically, been horrifically financially managed. It's a money pit - but unfortunately, it's all we have. And a lot of people, feel like it's just throwing good money after bad. I don't happen to agree with that, but I'm not entirely sure they're not wrong. For example, why does the VZ bridge cost double of what every other bridge/tunnel costs? Because people who live on Staten Island don't have any other option. We're already forced to pay a tax because we live here, now they want to add another one.
Like, I live on Staten Island, and I'm a big fan of commuting. When I worked on Wall St or Midtown, I loved taking the Express Bus into the city and then connecting to a train. I hate driving to Manhattan - there's a ton of traffic and dealing with parking is always a nightmare. However, now that I work uptown, it's just not feasible to use. It would expand my already 12 hour day to 16 or 17 hours. And I also know that working uptown, congestion pricing doesn't affect me - but it does affect a lot of people I know who live in parts of SI that don't have decent express bus service. So for them, it's a bus to the ferry or or a bus to an express bus and then a train. That's like 2-3 hours - or they could spend an hour driving in. They shouldn't be penalized because the MTA doesn't appropriately serve their area. Congestion pricing isn't going to fix their issue with transit - it's just going to tax them for not wanting to expand their workday by 2-3 hours in each direction.
It's a tax on driving into the congestion zone. If where you live requires driving into it, then it becomes a part of your cost of living -- and maybe induces you to live somewhere closer to transit because the cost-benefit no longer makes sense.
A lot of things are politically unpopular but ultimately necessary. We're in dire times, climactically, and the choices folks are going to have to make are only going to get harder. Democrats need to do a better job of selling these unpleasant choices and not backing down.
Maybe don’t live 2-3 hours from your job. Normal people don’t do that. They move.
I live 1.5 hr from mine and I don’t bitch that my transit bill is 500 bucks a month. It was my choice. I deal with it.
Believe me, my EZPass bill is higher than your transit bill. I don't care about the cost, I care about the time. I'm a paramedic with the FDNY, I don't get to pick where I work - they send me to a station and if I don't like it, it can take legit years to get a transfer. But sure, I'll trade my 3 bedroom house in Staten Island to rent a 1 bedroom in Harlem that costs more than my mortgage payment.
You sound like a boomer arguing against a higher minimum wage. "Well, if they don't want to work for peanuts they should just find a better job." Go to bed grandpa.
Again, your choice to buy property when you have a job that can relocate you on a whim to anywhere in a “3 hour” commute radius. Others would likely rent in that situation. Also, if you are that far uptown you could completely avoid the congestion zone going thru BK or NJ. Might take awhile, but you are trying to have your cake and eat it too here.
Again, I'm not talking about ME. If you actually read what I wrote, I said that the pricing doesn't affect me. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect other people whom I care about.
Now run along, the nurse will be by with your evening meds shortly.
People responding don't seem to understand the pain of moving. Not just financially, but mentally. If you have kids that can really mess them up taking them away from their friends and family. That's not to mention your own stress and misery relocating but maybe people will resonate more with the trauma that can bring to a child. I'm not trying to exaggerate when I say trauma, that shit is real for children and adults alike having to uproot from their community.
You talk about choice of him getting another job.
How about your choice that you choose to live in the CBD. You always have the option to move somewhere with less cars.
Your post is so hypocritical and you don't even see it
Yeah I said I made the choice to live far away for reasons and I deal with the consequences of it (which are financial, time, and quality of life related). Choices have consequences. Not sure what’s hypocritical about that.
if you don’t care about the cost but care about the time, and are anti congestion tolling, i can’t help you. you’re a net beneficiary of the policy! do you order pizza and are surprised when it comes with crust, sauce, and cheese?
My commute by car is fine. I want better mass transit for my area so I don't have to take my car. Congesting Pricing isn't going to start new bus/train routes in my area. It's just going to improve QoL for folks who live in the CP area and, quite frankly, I don't give a shit about them.
The MTA has no medium term plans to build any new rail lines in the congestion zone; not on any capital report in development or the one recently released. IBX, SAS Phase 2 and new Phase 3 (125 crosstown) new lots extension, etc, all exist entirely outside the zone.
The current capital program has improvements to services in all 5 boroughs (including SI) and congestion pricing mandates it covers it as such + dedicates a given double digit percentage of the revenue to commuter rail.
Any other reasons you want to make up?
Or the fact that they are already cancelling Express busses constantly because they don't have enough drivers, and the busses both to and from the city can end up as standing room only for a $7 fare.
I don't think complaining about having to stand on a bus for $7 is a very compelling argument when you look at the alternative which is much more expensive given the tolls etc lol. I'm with you that more frequent and reliable service is crucial though
You're missing the point. There is a sizable subset of CP supporters that could care less about transit. They just want less cars in their neighborhoods.
They are people that move close to an already established commercial airport and complain about the noise.
Rich NIMBY's that live below 60th that want to keep the poor and middle class out with their cars.
If pollen is the best you can come up with to pretend that you don’t understand how car pollution works, I hope you enjoy having your first original thought in your mid-50s
I think the NY Democratic party needs healthy competition. It'd be ideal if transit haters felt comfortable voting republican, instead of diluting the democratic party.
Please show proof that congestion pricing isn't popular. I'd be surprised if most New Yorkers even knew what congestion pricing was.
And considering the median income of a commuter into the zone is nearly $180,000, this isn't affecting the average New Yorker.
I'm sure the 3 million people who use the subway daily wouldn't be too happy to learn that their commute will get worse each day due to deferred maintenance.
Someone in another thread in this sub quoted that 55% of city residents are opposed. I was going off their numbers and they were in favor of the policy.
The median income for the zone is skewed by FiDi with their inflated salaries. What about all the civil servants who work in that area and commute from outer boros? Are they not average New Yorkers?
And I'm sure that the millions of people who commute into the city by car from places underserved by mass transit are thrilled with the decision.
This is just my observation, but I notice that loads of cars are coming from Jersey where housing and taxes are lower. I think if the port authority could get its act together that would significantly reduce traffic.
Siena polling done showed that it wasn't popular across the political spectrum. People aren't just adding their own personal experiences to this argument.
People's commutes have been ruined long before congestion pricing was even a topic.
Roads are also built with public money and we hear a lot less about how much they cost. When a highway project is being done there's a lot less Op-ed in papers about its costs than when a big transit project is being done.
Expensive Transit projects get more criticism than expensive highway projects because people [like the Koch family fund groups to rally and organize criticism.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html)
Fossil Fuels have generated a lot of wealth for certain people and now they have money to throw around to kill projects that would take cars off of the road and help lower fossil fuel use.
They're private companies. No one cares how much they waste. There's still accountability in the private sector. Where is it with the MTA? How are they allowed to fail at meeting deadlines or blowing past the initial scope of work then ask for more money? There's no sense of fiscal responsibility because they know there's always more money coming via the taxpayers.
They have no reason to be accountable. If they miss a deadline are they punished? No. We as consumers have no other options. They know this. They are laughing all the way to the bank.
if she were running for president she’d be the 4th most competent person behind the oldest person to ever hold the office, the man who thinks batteries on boats are a novel technology, and the guy that actually had a brain worm.
We have good highways. We don’t have good railroads. You can blame the government when they were “monopoly busting” the railroad companies! They essentially killed any form of healthy competition when it comes to rail. With no competition, there was no reason to improve.
Slides 2-6 suck that they’re being deferred. But this is me on slide 1 as a M3/R44/R46/R62/R68 enjoyer:
https://preview.redd.it/ng1nrag46y8d1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c82884561a45b9a7165da98ae76e42670b1a3a3d
Unfortunately, 44s and 46s will still go. The incoming fleet being delivered has enough cars to retire both fleets.
They may keep a few 46s in a state of good repair if needed for spares, but historicaly, they do not do this and just hope for the best.
Has the option order been placed yet? Because they can’t scrap all 752 R46s for around 500 R211s without service cuts
EDIT: never mind, option 1 has been exercised. Kiss the ‘46s goodbye.
Deferring the accessibility upgrades is going to set the MTA up to lose in court if it can't make the targets it agreed to.
>[Judge Approves MTA Deal to Make Subways 95% ADA-Compliant by 2055](https://www.thecity.nyc/2023/04/07/subways-disability-act-compliant-2055/)
>A Manhattan federal judge on Friday approved a settlement to a class action lawsuit that locks the MTA into equipping 95% of subway and Staten Island Railway stations with elevators or ramps — with a deadline three decades away.
>The approval by U.S. District Judge Edgardo Ramos caps one part of a long-running push by advocates for people with disabilities to improve access to a transit system where merely a quarter of the nearly 500 stations comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.
>...
>The MTA announced the settlement last June — agreeing to install elevators or ramps by 2055 at the more than 300 stations that are currently inaccessible to wheelchair users and others with mobility impairments — but it wasn’t made official until Friday.
>...
>Under the terms of the settlement, the transit agency is also committed to meeting several marks in order to keep the 2055 goal on track, including making 81 more stations accessible as part of its more than $50 billion 2020 to 2024 MTA Capital Program. And 15% of New York City Transit’s portion of future capital plan funding must now be set aside for accessibility upgrades.
If the IBX survives this, I'm worried it'll die if that stupid on-street plan sticks rather than going under All Faiths. The traffic on Metropolitan Ave in that area is horrendous.
But but but liking pockets! Overtime! Corporate greed! The money (that was legally allocated and already committed to signed contracts for compliance to federal law that protects the agency from ADA lawsuits) would have just bought solid gold toilets! I’ve never listened to a board meeting in my life.
The thing about asking for an audit is that it won't do what you think it'll do.
You think it'll discover some hidden multi-billion lost. But what it will uncover, as there have been audits, is that the MTA pays a lot of money for stuff. Some of that has to do with the state of transit vendors in the US, a lot has to do with federal regulation, and a massive amount has to do with Albany using the MTA as a political football.
And that's what we are seeing yet again: there was a plan to fund the MTA, and Albany, once again, decided to use it as a political football, causing the MTA to waste a lot of money in infrastructure as well as in re-negotiating all of those contracts (re-negotiations cost money. And it's money you won't get back).
So we can audit the MTA from here to kingdom come, but I'm sorry to tell you, that's not gonna do anything. Albany is who needs to be audited.
Yeah, The New York Times did a big investigation into why the MTA spent a fortune rebuilding the WTC stations after 9/11.
And what they found over and over again was political interference at every level.
The mayor wanted a certain area of the WTC done by a certain anniversary for photo-ops, the governor didn't want any disruption to 1 train service even though it would've been far cheaper to do the work with service partly suspended, etc.
So the MTA did the rebuild in the most expensive way possible for purely political reasons.
Plus the entire US spends outrageous sums on infrastructure projects due to federal regulations. It's not even that unique to NY.
Mostly requirements that cities spend years and years studying every possible change. This leads to tons of legal wrangling over every detail with opponents charging that studies didn't account for X, Y, and Z which leads to delays that run up costs.
The average time it takes to complete a federal study on a big project is 4.5 years. That's just studying *possible* outcomes before any work can start. For comparison, London's mayor at the time called for congestion charging in 2000 and it was up and running in 2003... less time than our preliminary studies alone take.
These requirements were put in place after people like Robert Moses were able to demolish entire neighborhoods with no one able to stop him.
But now we've gone so far in the other direction that a technically simple concept like congestion charging (basically just some toll cameras on existing streets) takes several years of studies.
Ezra Klein has done a lot of good articles on it: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/opinion/traffic-congestion-new-york-climate-policy.html
There are several. One that comes to mind has to do with how heavy rail in the US is required to be. Have you noticed that our subways look boxy and heavy compared to other countries? That's due to US regulation that requires trains to not accordion when crashing head on. That doesn't really happen much nowadays but the regulation is still there. That alone means we can't just get rolling stock off the international market.
Another one I learned about recently is elevators. Almost everyone in the world uses the European standard for elevator parts while the US has its own standard. This lowers the amount of parts that US companies can use for elevator construction, making them more expensive (again, you can't just use what's already available in the world market).
And a bunch of other shit like that that constantly keeps the US behind.
Yeah protectionism is often part of it. Apparently some congresspeople are trying to force Brightline to only use US-made HSR trains… even though there’s only one manufacturer in the US and they have a history of safety issues. Of course, they can also charge whatever they want if they’re the only option.
Yep. It's ridiculous how much of our transit issues are self-inflicted.
Sadly, all of this doesn't make it to the headlines. We just hear how transit in the US is bad and no one wants to take it.
>Yeah, The New York Times did a big investigation into why the MTA spent a fortune rebuilding the WTC stations after 9/11.
The WTC PATH station was rebuilt by the Port Authority and it cost so much mostly because the agency paid to build a luxury underground mall under the guise of a train station. Building underground is expensive and should be avoided for things that don't need to be underground. It would have been much cheaper to build a simpler station and then make the first floor or 2 of a new building be a mall. For the money they spent it would have been nice if they actually used it on transit and built [this.](https://newyorkyimby.com/2014/09/the-port-authoritys-missed-connection-the-path-lex-line-that-never-was.html)
It's a shame to think about all the headlines and articles complaining about how much it costs to build a transit station when the headlines should have been complaining about a mall.
Janno Lieber answers directly to Hochul, but the Port Authority is run by board members appointed by both NY and NJ who serve for 6 year terms. The Port Authority board has a bit more freedom to push though whatever they want and yet they chose to push through the underground mall.
Yep, but none of that ever makes it to the headlines. It's easier to just say "the MTA is wasteful."
And I wish it was just random ppl who don't know anything better, but that mentality makes it into elected officials and now you have them making transit even worse due to it.
I would love to have the audit show how much money is spent on the community engagement and legal fights over securing the easement to build an elevator. That shit is a real killer.
You can thank that 3 Billion Dollar cost because of the Contractors too, that's just how they are but this was never going to be a inexpensive investment the MTA would make. Replacing old signalling like this was always going to be expensive no matter what. In this area alone, I don't see much to "Audit" because that's how Signaling upgrades are
Also the cost of construction is astronomical in NYC. Its one of the most expensive places to build in the entire world. This isn't just the case for the MTA. Building in NYC often requires extensive planning because electric / plumbing / subway are all intermingled and often not mapped correctly. Blocking a street or tunnel and doing the work during the weekday isn't an option because of the impact to commuters and residents, so you have to do work at night and on weekends, which means you have to pay workers more. Furthermore, you have to plan to make sure you support the foundations of the buildings around you, which if you dig, need to be reinforced. Its a huge mess, but mostly because we are an old city and crammed into a small space
An audit that I’m sure will find out how cancelling congestion pricing that the MTA had already signed contracts using because it was authorized 5 years ago will drive up prices and delays to subway improvements
See NJT. Christie cancelled what is now under construction as Gateway. Had to pay for contracts already signed and now NJ is doing the project at higher prices and commuters are suffering as Amtrak melts.
Personally I think Kathy will reinstate congestion pricing after the fall elections.
Yeah, cancelling ARC was one of Christie’s worse decisions. we complaining about the MTA wasting money and the answer is :checks notes:
Wasting money on pausing congestion pricing.
If I recall it was Christie already looking ahead cutting taxes for a national run that killed ARC (I think he blanked it on the terminus being in Macy’s basement). Not only did he screw us with cutting ARC but he defunded both NJT and roads. While he didn’t start the low gas tax he didn’t help until he lost power and nailed us all at once for the roads while still leaving NJT underfunded.
As I’ve noted elsewhere the train was superior to the bus when I started commuting almost 25 years ago. No longer. Now it’s the bus. Stuff may happen but delays are generally dependent on where they happen along the way, not the PABT aside from over crowding which can be timed if possible or the Lincoln Tunnel which are usually cleared pretty quickly.
But yeah, more wasting $$$ for politics over what is best for the city. $$$ could have been allocated to NJT along with MetroNorth and the LIRR (PATH has the PA). But no…
It is sad. Jersey has a considerable working class population and density. Perfect for wide scale mass transit. And NJT has been chronically underfunded for over a decade. And I agree currently Jersey buses are more reliable than NJT. I don’t know a time where it was the reverse.
You have to spend years doing environmental review and outreach all for the rug to get pulled by one lady because of election panicking. Sad!
Lmfao imagine thinking one policy would save the day. That organization needs a complete overhaul from the top down. Congestion pricing is throwing a band aid on a bullet wound.
Yeah I mean we already know the issues regarding capital construction. And that on a whim suddenly delaying congestion pricing will cause major headaches. Another audit is frankly not what we need. We need changes with how contractor practices and for the MTA to get the agreed upon money!
I think that people should definitely be aggressively marketing how congestion pricing supports upstate jobs. Otherwise, people will continue with the dumb trend of upstate hating NYC for no good reason.
As it stands, people are going to lose jobs upstate largely because of capital plan cutbacks instigated by pausing this without coming up with another source of funding - and they’re going to blame the City rather than their own politicians lobbying against this funding.
There’s a lot of issues with the MTA, but we can’t hope to fix them if we can’t stop making things worse. This is yet another expensive political intervention.
It would need to be by organizations like transportation alternatives teaming up with labor marketing MTA related upstate jobs
And yeah the MTA is not going to be fixed by suddenly eliminating a funding source at the 11th hour. It’s politics driven decision making that has led to costly issues for the MTA in the past like Fulton center
I mean, you already have Alstom talking about layoffs upstate as a result. Talk about difficult for new yorkers, she’s sending them to the unemployment office.
The spending problem exists with or without the congestion policy existing. It's been known that the MTA has a budgeting issue so there's obviously a core issue that has to be addressed through audits. You can always blame the next new thing whether it be the delay of congestion pricing, but that isn't going to solve the deep rooted problem that the MTA has.
And 5 years ago would you have blamed the pause of congestion pricing then?
You can blame suddenly cancelling the start of congestion pricing for cost overruns and delays for subway improvement projects. What the slideshow illustrated.
Audits are unlikely to tell us new things. We already know capital projects are expensive and that some people abuse overtime.
You can blame it for over runs and delay of improvement but let's not sit here and pretend that it was the cause of it. Slapping a bandage on it won't fix the mismanaged funds. Even at the end of the day 1 billion in the projected congestion pricing collection is not a dent to how much there MTA is in deficit every year
Delaying congestion pricing is the direct cause for signal modernization, accessibility and subway expansion becoming more expensive. Because this was money set aside by the NYS legislature 5 years ago.
>Slapping a bandage on it won’t fix the mismanaged funds
Die-Nacht did a fairly thorough response that brought up a major issue causing mismanaged funds: Albany using the MTA as political chess. That would include delaying congestion pricing at the 11th hours
You don’t fix mismanaged funds by suddenly and without warning cutting off a funding source. You add more costs and delays
You're basing the fact that the money was set aside by NYS legislature. It could have also not passed. No one is saying mismanaged funds are fixed by cutting off a funding source. I'm saying even without the funds it's still mismanaged, so why are we just throwing more money at the issue?
If you have let say a cousin that can't manage his finances, should we just force everyone in the family to pinch in with the hopes that the finances turn around? No. That's what I'm trying to get at and why MTA is overly due for an audit. It doesn't take 3 billion dollars for 23 elevators that's 130million per elevator. You don't see a slight problem with that?
>You’re basing the fact that the money was set aside by NYS legislature
Yes, reality. Should we base our argument on fiction?
>It could have also not passed
It did though. Why are we focusing on hypotheticals instead of what actually happened.
>No one is saying you fix mismanaged funds by cutting off a fund source
Glad you oppose Hochul’s 11th hour delay of congestion pricing then
>why are we throwing more money at the issue
Congestion pricing is tied to specific capital programs including accessibility and signal improvements and subway expansion. This is not a general “throw money at the budget” plan.
Did you read the MTA presentation posted by OP?
>MTA is overly due for an audit…you don’t see a slight problem with that?
With all due respect did you not read my or Die Nacht’s comments regarding the limitations of an audit? I already mentioned that we know capital projects are expensive and some people abuse overtime.
Die Nacht’s comment mentioned the issues with Albany politics meddling in the MTA and causing budget issues.
I recommend you reread our comments.
You should probably base it off reality as the collection of the funds has not even begun. Money that was PROMISED not set aside. That's where you are in delusion of.
The legislation passed but where is it now currently? Obviously things can change and hochul paused it indefinitely. No I'm happy hochul paused it because I don't need another tax payer's dollar to be set on fire.
Of course I read the presentation, did you not see me say 2billion for 23 elevators? That's 110 mil per elevator. I hope you can address that and justify the spending for that.
Die nacht comment does give some valid points that political meddling and causing delays may cause an increase in budget but the fact is how often does this really happen? The VAST MAJORITY of the budget is mismanaged due to faults within MTA and not because of some political game in Albany. If you really think that "some people abuse overtime" can lead to defects of 10bil a year you must be on something. I recommend you live in reality and lay off that copium
Congestion pricing as passed in 2019 is mandated to collect 1 billion in revenue per year. Off of which the MTA sold 15 billion in bonds. By law congestion pricing needs to start. Congestion pricing is legally binding.
You’re fine with taxpayer money being set on fire because of all the capital contracts that are now in jeopardy? That the MTA’s credit rating is at risk and thus worsen the deficit?
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2024/06/26/mta-board-move-may-give-nyc-congestion-pricing-advocates-legal-pathway/74219975007/
>how often does this really happen
Literally right now
>the VAST MAJORITY of the budget is mismanaged due to faults within the MTA
>defect of 10 billion a year
Written without a source
It's because they need to keep service active. Only having a couple hours each day for construction is incredibly inefficient.
Btw, anyone can perform an audit themselves: https://new.mta.info/transparency/foil.
Crazy enough, they were being audited due to one of the many lawsuits. A judge said that if the MTA's finances are out of control already, they can't imagine how much worse it would be with congestion pricing in effect, which resulted in a full open book audit of their finances. They are several million over budget.
SOB articles like this are the worst type of gaslighting. Here are the facts. See below for just a portion of revenue streams that the MTA has put their fingers into in the last ten years.
2015: MTA Payroll Tax of .34% of payroll to help fund the MTA and improve service
2015: Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District surcharge sales tax of .375% of most items
2015: Subway fare increased 10% to $2.75
Summer of 2017: Piss poor infrastructure resulted in the Summer of Hell across the MTA system
July 2023: MTA Payroll Tax almost doubles from .34% to .60%
August 2023: Subway fare increased to $2.90
June 2024: Congestion pricing scheduled to begin
In the last ten years, the MTA has squeezed more and more money from different sources and with the promise of improved transit.
Can you honestly say that was money well spent?
You can tell it’s agenda driven more than anything else. Where’s the $36 billion that wasn’t affected going? From these slides it looks like nothing can get done now.
They can build new stations; but why build it with glass and white everywhere? Looks like a soulless building (airport) and makes you feel like a robot in a dystopian world. And the new rolling stock too look like they were taken from an alien world that doesn't have emotions.
Are you even aware of what $1.5 billion affords today in the private sector or just balking at a big number?
Btw, it almost gets you a brand new NFL stadium that will likely be demolished again in 30 years.
These subway cars will likely be running for 30-50 years.
The MTA could be given a money printer directly from the Treasury and still run out of money within months.
The MTA is like your crackhead cousin that's always broke and is trying to convince your grandma to sell her TV for crack money
Instead of spending and wasting all that money on digital screens on the walls, and those kiosks out on the streets, all of which are constantly broken by terrible people. Use the money to improve the tracks and give substantial modernization to the stations platforms
Poor comparison. It's significantly easier to block off a section of the platform or street to install a digital screen or kiosk than to block off an active subway line to install new signals that will be in operation for 50-100 years.
I live in NY. I’m not commenting on the budgeting. Just layout. I think it’s to combat subway surfing but the open plan for subways is horrifying. They want to remove the barrier? When things get weird, sometimes the only viable option is to get out of one car and into another. A door is your friend. Also contain smells. There has to be a better way.
This is such bullshit. The MTA is the most poorly run, wasteful agency on the planet. The MTA would have taken the congestion money, spent it and still nothing would be built.
It wouldn't be in their operating budget, it would be in their multi-year capital budget along with all of the other listed and unlisted items. It's most likely a "sources & uses" based model and when you take a way a major revenue source it is common to see a domino effect. Hypothetically, if the bridge repair was using federal funding from the infrastructure package but another, higher-priority project was relying on congestion pricing to move forward and fits the criteria needed to apply federal funds, the funds will be applied to the higher-priority project and the source is removed from the bridge as it is deferred, delayed or cancelled.
Ok and your point? Congestion pricing was earmarked for transit not bridges and tunnels. This should've been covered by their normal budget. Congestion pricing should've had 0 effect on this.
Well, if we're being technical, two of the bridges would automatically qualify if we're solely basing it on transit(Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro as well if you want to add that as well), so I'm pretty sure that the bridges and tunnels would use some of that money for projects(bus lanes on the verrazano would be nice).
They'd have more money if they actually took fare evasion seriously like in the 70s instead of letting most of these low lives get away with it. With only half the people paying, it's no wonder there's no money for anything. Transportation is NEVER free, whether you use public transportation or own a car (gas, insurance, maintenance, taxes, depreciation, etc.), there's always costs involved. The subway is way cheaper than owning a car yet these people think they're entitled to free rides. Stop relying on federal aid for every little thing and start getting serious with fare evasion if you want money for projects.
Rail operation should be on a bid contract. Open up rail business to bidders and watch how the service will improve. Right now the mta has no competition, so what incentive do they have to do better ?!
“The situation” is traffic.
Making it more expensive to be traffic discourages people from driving.
It doesn’t matter if every dollar of congestion pricing was thrown in a fire, it would still be worth it in terms of quality of life for the millions of people who have to breathe polluted air, hear endless horn honking, and get killed by drivers.
Lol who are the wealthy people that are funding this?
That money is coming from people too poor to live near their jobs.
It's crazy cuz my friend was so afraid of the congestion pricing she got a job near her home. She worked for the board of education as a special education teacher.
Now a private school in New Jersey that's a ten minute drive from her house is going to pay her less but it's enough for her since she is going to save time and money with the tolls.
You would think that the MTA and port authority can afford to give teachers breaks on tolls.
Well that doesn’t answer my question
>that money is coming from people too poor to live near the jobs
[Vast majority of poor people take transit](https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis)
Only the best for the best I see. It's not like huge chunks of areas below 60th street are designated commercial only and people don't live there.
When will we stop to consider the lungs of the corporations?!
Congestion pricing or not, MTA still spends more money than any other transit agency in the world for any sort of project especially per mile of new subway tunnel. Glad this got canceled. Until The state and city can get their act together and cut down on the red tape and government bureaucracy, MTA will always be a blackhole when it comes to funding.
its all literally a lie. the MTA had a 30 billion dollar hole and needed money. They came up with a plan to charge cars and trucks coming into the city for it and called it "congestion pricing".
the MTAs study said it would have little effect on congestion other than tolling the shit out of new yorkers.
calling it "congestion pricing" is about as accurate as calling rising prices "inflation" instead of "price gouging"
corrupt MTA is making statements about how they mismanaged a 30 billion dollar hole into the city and now theyre stuck trying to pin it on normal middle class people.
downvotes dont matter you fools! google it instead of getting your misinformed feelings hurt. take your hurt feelings to MTA and tell them to fix their shit with the other 30 billion dollars that you already paid them
What if the mta does a public partnership to extend the 2nd Ave subway. A private company will design/ build it / and operate for a separate fare to complete this project
It’s pretty simple, Homie. It’s a bid process. Whoever has the best bid gets the contract for X amount of years with stipulations. Like if they fail to provide so and so, contract can be cancelled. Homie.
if it’s such a great business why has no one ever petitioned the government to run private passenger rail in manhattan since the predecessors went bankrupt?
I'm ok with this. The only thing congestion pricing is funding in my borough are 3 elevators. No signal improvements, no new infrastructure, no modernization of the HUB stations. Everything for the people of Manhattan and Brooklyn. I'm not mentioning Queens because they deserve upgrades to the Queens Blvd Line.
Lost count how many times the 2nd Ave Subway been delayed in history Should have extended to 125st for phase 1 with the drilling machines in the ground
A competent agency/state would've secured the necessary funding and approval for phase 2 while phase 1 was underway. That way construction could've just kept continuing right after P1 opened.
I would remove agency from that sentence. It's clear that MTA is beholden to the state. MTA gets so much blame when politics decides its fate.
That would mean that phase 2 was actually in their agenda. It's not. It won't be done well passed 2030s
It wont be done till East Harlem is gentrified. Phase one didnt go a single block past the Upper east side. 2nd ave subway will never go a single block into a poor neighborhood. And the city is waging a war against east harlem. 2nd ave subway is part of it. (Tho tbh, a lot of east harlem residents dont want the 2nd ave subway up there either. With the way this city has a lack of protection for poorer residents, better infrastructure here would just mean theyd get gentrified out faster)
Truly blows my mind how Hochul just makes this decision and then goes silent by not offering any other solution to help aid these projects. This is the biggest middle finger she could give. I would feel a little better if she made the effort to bail them out on these projects so they could continue, but the fact all of this is just left in purgatory is beyond me. How spineless of a leader could you be
She's saying if you ride the train you're probably not in a competitive house district or a donor so fuck you
All while being blackmailed by the DNC into voting for Biden because the alternative is fascism. I have never felt as powerless and defeated as I feel now.
Trump is literally hitler, amirite?
>Truly blows my mind how Hochul just makes this decision and then goes silent by not offering any other solution to help aid these projects. She can't come out and say that she'll flip again after the election or that defeats the point or actually makes things worse by rallying anti-congestion charge voters. I do wonder if she under-estimated the effects her last minute delay would have. Did she talk to anyone at the MTA before her surprise announcement or did she just talk to Hakeem Jeffries and some election analysts about polls in the suburbs?
Blows my mind also that the board rolled over and voted to go with what she said even though they didn’t have to.
Unfortunately they did have to. Legally couldn’t proceed without the signed VPPP. Whether or not that’s ministerial/discretionary is TBD (it’s likely the former), but the VPPP is needed to continue
Who made an idea of Interborough Rail? Hochul Who killed Interborough Rail? Hochul
3 billion for signal upgrades on two lines? Europe is laughing at us. That’s a ridiculous amount.
As a civil engineer who works in construction, I'm disappointed at the average person's awareness of how much infrastructure costs. It's expensive just like everything else. There's a bias against the MTA because its budget is paid with taxpayer money. Probably would shock you at much Amazon, Delta, or McDonalds spends each day. Yes the MTA is wasteful, but most of the MTA's efficiencies come from politics. It's very difficult to sign subcontracts, hire workers, and procure materials when budgets and deadlines are political footballs.
Starting and stopping projects on a political whim like this costs money. We've got a half billion dollars sunk into the enforcement of congestion pricing. It's ludicrous that 17 years of planning and negotiation have gone out the window because of scaredy-cat democrats.
It's got nothing to do with scaredy-cat democrats, and everything to do with the fact that this is an election year. Congestion Pricing is not a popular thing citywide. Yes, there's a decent amount of support for it in Manhattan, but everyone else in the city hates the idea. She canned it because she needs the votes. A Republican wouldn't have ever entertained it at all.
And that's the democratic party being afraid they will lose the election on the back of congestion pricing. I'm definitely not saying the republicans would do a good job of anything. The democrats lack conviction and don't seem to be able to get anything done -- but I guess they're better than the alternative, so I guess I'll be voting and volunteering for them again.
I mean, if the majority of the city doesn't like the idea, why is it wrong for it to be cancelled? At the end of the day, it's pretty much just a tax on people who work in Manhattan but live in other boros which are already underserved by mass transit options. It's not like the MTA was gonna take that money and build a subway in Staten Island or expand the subway into new areas in Queens or Brooklyn. Furthermore, the MTA has, historically, been horrifically financially managed. It's a money pit - but unfortunately, it's all we have. And a lot of people, feel like it's just throwing good money after bad. I don't happen to agree with that, but I'm not entirely sure they're not wrong. For example, why does the VZ bridge cost double of what every other bridge/tunnel costs? Because people who live on Staten Island don't have any other option. We're already forced to pay a tax because we live here, now they want to add another one. Like, I live on Staten Island, and I'm a big fan of commuting. When I worked on Wall St or Midtown, I loved taking the Express Bus into the city and then connecting to a train. I hate driving to Manhattan - there's a ton of traffic and dealing with parking is always a nightmare. However, now that I work uptown, it's just not feasible to use. It would expand my already 12 hour day to 16 or 17 hours. And I also know that working uptown, congestion pricing doesn't affect me - but it does affect a lot of people I know who live in parts of SI that don't have decent express bus service. So for them, it's a bus to the ferry or or a bus to an express bus and then a train. That's like 2-3 hours - or they could spend an hour driving in. They shouldn't be penalized because the MTA doesn't appropriately serve their area. Congestion pricing isn't going to fix their issue with transit - it's just going to tax them for not wanting to expand their workday by 2-3 hours in each direction.
It's a tax on driving into the congestion zone. If where you live requires driving into it, then it becomes a part of your cost of living -- and maybe induces you to live somewhere closer to transit because the cost-benefit no longer makes sense. A lot of things are politically unpopular but ultimately necessary. We're in dire times, climactically, and the choices folks are going to have to make are only going to get harder. Democrats need to do a better job of selling these unpleasant choices and not backing down.
Maybe don’t live 2-3 hours from your job. Normal people don’t do that. They move. I live 1.5 hr from mine and I don’t bitch that my transit bill is 500 bucks a month. It was my choice. I deal with it.
Believe me, my EZPass bill is higher than your transit bill. I don't care about the cost, I care about the time. I'm a paramedic with the FDNY, I don't get to pick where I work - they send me to a station and if I don't like it, it can take legit years to get a transfer. But sure, I'll trade my 3 bedroom house in Staten Island to rent a 1 bedroom in Harlem that costs more than my mortgage payment. You sound like a boomer arguing against a higher minimum wage. "Well, if they don't want to work for peanuts they should just find a better job." Go to bed grandpa.
Again, your choice to buy property when you have a job that can relocate you on a whim to anywhere in a “3 hour” commute radius. Others would likely rent in that situation. Also, if you are that far uptown you could completely avoid the congestion zone going thru BK or NJ. Might take awhile, but you are trying to have your cake and eat it too here.
Again, I'm not talking about ME. If you actually read what I wrote, I said that the pricing doesn't affect me. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect other people whom I care about. Now run along, the nurse will be by with your evening meds shortly.
People responding don't seem to understand the pain of moving. Not just financially, but mentally. If you have kids that can really mess them up taking them away from their friends and family. That's not to mention your own stress and misery relocating but maybe people will resonate more with the trauma that can bring to a child. I'm not trying to exaggerate when I say trauma, that shit is real for children and adults alike having to uproot from their community.
You talk about choice of him getting another job. How about your choice that you choose to live in the CBD. You always have the option to move somewhere with less cars. Your post is so hypocritical and you don't even see it
Yeah I said I made the choice to live far away for reasons and I deal with the consequences of it (which are financial, time, and quality of life related). Choices have consequences. Not sure what’s hypocritical about that.
if you don’t care about the cost but care about the time, and are anti congestion tolling, i can’t help you. you’re a net beneficiary of the policy! do you order pizza and are surprised when it comes with crust, sauce, and cheese?
My commute by car is fine. I want better mass transit for my area so I don't have to take my car. Congesting Pricing isn't going to start new bus/train routes in my area. It's just going to improve QoL for folks who live in the CP area and, quite frankly, I don't give a shit about them.
The MTA has no medium term plans to build any new rail lines in the congestion zone; not on any capital report in development or the one recently released. IBX, SAS Phase 2 and new Phase 3 (125 crosstown) new lots extension, etc, all exist entirely outside the zone. The current capital program has improvements to services in all 5 boroughs (including SI) and congestion pricing mandates it covers it as such + dedicates a given double digit percentage of the revenue to commuter rail. Any other reasons you want to make up?
Or the fact that they are already cancelling Express busses constantly because they don't have enough drivers, and the busses both to and from the city can end up as standing room only for a $7 fare.
I don't think complaining about having to stand on a bus for $7 is a very compelling argument when you look at the alternative which is much more expensive given the tolls etc lol. I'm with you that more frequent and reliable service is crucial though
$7 each way, why wouldn't you drive? Especially if the battery tunnel toll is applied to the congestion fare?
+1
You're missing the point. There is a sizable subset of CP supporters that could care less about transit. They just want less cars in their neighborhoods. They are people that move close to an already established commercial airport and complain about the noise. Rich NIMBY's that live below 60th that want to keep the poor and middle class out with their cars.
That's all the more reason to cancel it.
The city’s had air quality alerts for the last three weeks straight but sure, keeping the same amount of car traffic is actually good. Stupid ass
Sure, because that also has nothing to do with pollen levels. Stupid ass.
If pollen is the best you can come up with to pretend that you don’t understand how car pollution works, I hope you enjoy having your first original thought in your mid-50s
Nothing to do with car emissions.
I think the NY Democratic party needs healthy competition. It'd be ideal if transit haters felt comfortable voting republican, instead of diluting the democratic party.
Many transit haters already vote Republican.
Please show proof that congestion pricing isn't popular. I'd be surprised if most New Yorkers even knew what congestion pricing was. And considering the median income of a commuter into the zone is nearly $180,000, this isn't affecting the average New Yorker. I'm sure the 3 million people who use the subway daily wouldn't be too happy to learn that their commute will get worse each day due to deferred maintenance.
Someone in another thread in this sub quoted that 55% of city residents are opposed. I was going off their numbers and they were in favor of the policy. The median income for the zone is skewed by FiDi with their inflated salaries. What about all the civil servants who work in that area and commute from outer boros? Are they not average New Yorkers? And I'm sure that the millions of people who commute into the city by car from places underserved by mass transit are thrilled with the decision.
This is just my observation, but I notice that loads of cars are coming from Jersey where housing and taxes are lower. I think if the port authority could get its act together that would significantly reduce traffic.
Siena polling done showed that it wasn't popular across the political spectrum. People aren't just adding their own personal experiences to this argument. People's commutes have been ruined long before congestion pricing was even a topic.
I wonder if this can be banned
Roads are also built with public money and we hear a lot less about how much they cost. When a highway project is being done there's a lot less Op-ed in papers about its costs than when a big transit project is being done. Expensive Transit projects get more criticism than expensive highway projects because people [like the Koch family fund groups to rally and organize criticism.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html) Fossil Fuels have generated a lot of wealth for certain people and now they have money to throw around to kill projects that would take cars off of the road and help lower fossil fuel use.
They're private companies. No one cares how much they waste. There's still accountability in the private sector. Where is it with the MTA? How are they allowed to fail at meeting deadlines or blowing past the initial scope of work then ask for more money? There's no sense of fiscal responsibility because they know there's always more money coming via the taxpayers.
They have no reason to be accountable. If they miss a deadline are they punished? No. We as consumers have no other options. They know this. They are laughing all the way to the bank.
DOES KATHY KNOW WHAT SHE JUST DID
if she were running for president she’d be the 4th most competent person behind the oldest person to ever hold the office, the man who thinks batteries on boats are a novel technology, and the guy that actually had a brain worm.
Absolutely not! She isn't even from here, in fact... Damn women is from upstate
But she doomed us all! She just canceled our next step of keeping New York a transit city
This is what angers me (us, rather) we must stay strong!
Chicagoan following this and can’t help but wonder if this is how y’all end up like us (transit city in name only) in 20-30 years.
USA and transit? LOL
We have good highways. We don’t have good railroads. You can blame the government when they were “monopoly busting” the railroad companies! They essentially killed any form of healthy competition when it comes to rail. With no competition, there was no reason to improve.
Slides 2-6 suck that they’re being deferred. But this is me on slide 1 as a M3/R44/R46/R62/R68 enjoyer: https://preview.redd.it/ng1nrag46y8d1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c82884561a45b9a7165da98ae76e42670b1a3a3d
Unfortunately, 44s and 46s will still go. The incoming fleet being delivered has enough cars to retire both fleets. They may keep a few 46s in a state of good repair if needed for spares, but historicaly, they do not do this and just hope for the best.
Has the option order been placed yet? Because they can’t scrap all 752 R46s for around 500 R211s without service cuts EDIT: never mind, option 1 has been exercised. Kiss the ‘46s goodbye.
Haven’t they only really done this with the R32 cars?
It was because of the last-minute decision to retire the R44 cars that the R32s lasted longer
And the first R179 cars being faulty didn’t help it
No it did not
Fun fact: in 1981 the MTA projected the 46s would be replaced in \*2011\*. 13 years later they're still rotting along their routes...
They are more comfortable than the NTTs at least They should bring back that seating type instead of the bench seats that dig into your spine
If you want comfort try WMATA some day… all the seats are padded. Too bad they will never work in New York
Deferring the accessibility upgrades is going to set the MTA up to lose in court if it can't make the targets it agreed to. >[Judge Approves MTA Deal to Make Subways 95% ADA-Compliant by 2055](https://www.thecity.nyc/2023/04/07/subways-disability-act-compliant-2055/) >A Manhattan federal judge on Friday approved a settlement to a class action lawsuit that locks the MTA into equipping 95% of subway and Staten Island Railway stations with elevators or ramps — with a deadline three decades away. >The approval by U.S. District Judge Edgardo Ramos caps one part of a long-running push by advocates for people with disabilities to improve access to a transit system where merely a quarter of the nearly 500 stations comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. >... >The MTA announced the settlement last June — agreeing to install elevators or ramps by 2055 at the more than 300 stations that are currently inaccessible to wheelchair users and others with mobility impairments — but it wasn’t made official until Friday. >... >Under the terms of the settlement, the transit agency is also committed to meeting several marks in order to keep the 2055 goal on track, including making 81 more stations accessible as part of its more than $50 billion 2020 to 2024 MTA Capital Program. And 15% of New York City Transit’s portion of future capital plan funding must now be set aside for accessibility upgrades.
As someone who needs those elevators, I am *angry*.
I swear to God if they cancel the IBX... I'm gonna be pissed
If the IBX survives this, I'm worried it'll die if that stupid on-street plan sticks rather than going under All Faiths. The traffic on Metropolitan Ave in that area is horrendous.
I would expect to see it around 2055 at the earliest.
Oh, that's looong gone. It will **never** happen.
Just comes to show that terrible decisions to benefit a few in the short term comes with long term consequences for everyone.
Capitalism
Thanks for nothing Hochul!
Fuck Hochul
But but but liking pockets! Overtime! Corporate greed! The money (that was legally allocated and already committed to signed contracts for compliance to federal law that protects the agency from ADA lawsuits) would have just bought solid gold toilets! I’ve never listened to a board meeting in my life.
The fact that they need 3 billion for signal modernization and 2 billion to install 23 elevators is why they need an audit
The thing about asking for an audit is that it won't do what you think it'll do. You think it'll discover some hidden multi-billion lost. But what it will uncover, as there have been audits, is that the MTA pays a lot of money for stuff. Some of that has to do with the state of transit vendors in the US, a lot has to do with federal regulation, and a massive amount has to do with Albany using the MTA as a political football. And that's what we are seeing yet again: there was a plan to fund the MTA, and Albany, once again, decided to use it as a political football, causing the MTA to waste a lot of money in infrastructure as well as in re-negotiating all of those contracts (re-negotiations cost money. And it's money you won't get back). So we can audit the MTA from here to kingdom come, but I'm sorry to tell you, that's not gonna do anything. Albany is who needs to be audited.
Yeah, The New York Times did a big investigation into why the MTA spent a fortune rebuilding the WTC stations after 9/11. And what they found over and over again was political interference at every level. The mayor wanted a certain area of the WTC done by a certain anniversary for photo-ops, the governor didn't want any disruption to 1 train service even though it would've been far cheaper to do the work with service partly suspended, etc. So the MTA did the rebuild in the most expensive way possible for purely political reasons. Plus the entire US spends outrageous sums on infrastructure projects due to federal regulations. It's not even that unique to NY.
What kind of federal regulations? Totally unaware here
Mostly requirements that cities spend years and years studying every possible change. This leads to tons of legal wrangling over every detail with opponents charging that studies didn't account for X, Y, and Z which leads to delays that run up costs. The average time it takes to complete a federal study on a big project is 4.5 years. That's just studying *possible* outcomes before any work can start. For comparison, London's mayor at the time called for congestion charging in 2000 and it was up and running in 2003... less time than our preliminary studies alone take. These requirements were put in place after people like Robert Moses were able to demolish entire neighborhoods with no one able to stop him. But now we've gone so far in the other direction that a technically simple concept like congestion charging (basically just some toll cameras on existing streets) takes several years of studies. Ezra Klein has done a lot of good articles on it: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/opinion/traffic-congestion-new-york-climate-policy.html
There are several. One that comes to mind has to do with how heavy rail in the US is required to be. Have you noticed that our subways look boxy and heavy compared to other countries? That's due to US regulation that requires trains to not accordion when crashing head on. That doesn't really happen much nowadays but the regulation is still there. That alone means we can't just get rolling stock off the international market. Another one I learned about recently is elevators. Almost everyone in the world uses the European standard for elevator parts while the US has its own standard. This lowers the amount of parts that US companies can use for elevator construction, making them more expensive (again, you can't just use what's already available in the world market). And a bunch of other shit like that that constantly keeps the US behind.
Yeah protectionism is often part of it. Apparently some congresspeople are trying to force Brightline to only use US-made HSR trains… even though there’s only one manufacturer in the US and they have a history of safety issues. Of course, they can also charge whatever they want if they’re the only option.
Yep. It's ridiculous how much of our transit issues are self-inflicted. Sadly, all of this doesn't make it to the headlines. We just hear how transit in the US is bad and no one wants to take it.
Insane. Thank you for the write up
NEPA requirements
>Yeah, The New York Times did a big investigation into why the MTA spent a fortune rebuilding the WTC stations after 9/11. The WTC PATH station was rebuilt by the Port Authority and it cost so much mostly because the agency paid to build a luxury underground mall under the guise of a train station. Building underground is expensive and should be avoided for things that don't need to be underground. It would have been much cheaper to build a simpler station and then make the first floor or 2 of a new building be a mall. For the money they spent it would have been nice if they actually used it on transit and built [this.](https://newyorkyimby.com/2014/09/the-port-authoritys-missed-connection-the-path-lex-line-that-never-was.html) It's a shame to think about all the headlines and articles complaining about how much it costs to build a transit station when the headlines should have been complaining about a mall. Janno Lieber answers directly to Hochul, but the Port Authority is run by board members appointed by both NY and NJ who serve for 6 year terms. The Port Authority board has a bit more freedom to push though whatever they want and yet they chose to push through the underground mall.
Yep, but none of that ever makes it to the headlines. It's easier to just say "the MTA is wasteful." And I wish it was just random ppl who don't know anything better, but that mentality makes it into elected officials and now you have them making transit even worse due to it.
I would love to have the audit show how much money is spent on the community engagement and legal fights over securing the easement to build an elevator. That shit is a real killer.
You can thank that 3 Billion Dollar cost because of the Contractors too, that's just how they are but this was never going to be a inexpensive investment the MTA would make. Replacing old signalling like this was always going to be expensive no matter what. In this area alone, I don't see much to "Audit" because that's how Signaling upgrades are
Also the cost of construction is astronomical in NYC. Its one of the most expensive places to build in the entire world. This isn't just the case for the MTA. Building in NYC often requires extensive planning because electric / plumbing / subway are all intermingled and often not mapped correctly. Blocking a street or tunnel and doing the work during the weekday isn't an option because of the impact to commuters and residents, so you have to do work at night and on weekends, which means you have to pay workers more. Furthermore, you have to plan to make sure you support the foundations of the buildings around you, which if you dig, need to be reinforced. Its a huge mess, but mostly because we are an old city and crammed into a small space
Screw it build elevated then
And yet, Albany has a supermajority of Democrats. They control everything at the moment.
An audit that I’m sure will find out how cancelling congestion pricing that the MTA had already signed contracts using because it was authorized 5 years ago will drive up prices and delays to subway improvements
See NJT. Christie cancelled what is now under construction as Gateway. Had to pay for contracts already signed and now NJ is doing the project at higher prices and commuters are suffering as Amtrak melts. Personally I think Kathy will reinstate congestion pricing after the fall elections.
Yeah, cancelling ARC was one of Christie’s worse decisions. we complaining about the MTA wasting money and the answer is :checks notes: Wasting money on pausing congestion pricing.
If I recall it was Christie already looking ahead cutting taxes for a national run that killed ARC (I think he blanked it on the terminus being in Macy’s basement). Not only did he screw us with cutting ARC but he defunded both NJT and roads. While he didn’t start the low gas tax he didn’t help until he lost power and nailed us all at once for the roads while still leaving NJT underfunded. As I’ve noted elsewhere the train was superior to the bus when I started commuting almost 25 years ago. No longer. Now it’s the bus. Stuff may happen but delays are generally dependent on where they happen along the way, not the PABT aside from over crowding which can be timed if possible or the Lincoln Tunnel which are usually cleared pretty quickly. But yeah, more wasting $$$ for politics over what is best for the city. $$$ could have been allocated to NJT along with MetroNorth and the LIRR (PATH has the PA). But no…
It is sad. Jersey has a considerable working class population and density. Perfect for wide scale mass transit. And NJT has been chronically underfunded for over a decade. And I agree currently Jersey buses are more reliable than NJT. I don’t know a time where it was the reverse. You have to spend years doing environmental review and outreach all for the rug to get pulled by one lady because of election panicking. Sad!
This requires the critical thinking skills of a 13 year old to understand which is why it doesn’t really get through to congestion tolling detractors.
Lmfao imagine thinking one policy would save the day. That organization needs a complete overhaul from the top down. Congestion pricing is throwing a band aid on a bullet wound.
The MTA can press the complete overhaul button.
are you going to get the elevators built faster?
An audit that will also end up costing another billion dollars we don’t have because the governor cancelled congestion pricing.
Yeah I mean we already know the issues regarding capital construction. And that on a whim suddenly delaying congestion pricing will cause major headaches. Another audit is frankly not what we need. We need changes with how contractor practices and for the MTA to get the agreed upon money!
I think that people should definitely be aggressively marketing how congestion pricing supports upstate jobs. Otherwise, people will continue with the dumb trend of upstate hating NYC for no good reason. As it stands, people are going to lose jobs upstate largely because of capital plan cutbacks instigated by pausing this without coming up with another source of funding - and they’re going to blame the City rather than their own politicians lobbying against this funding. There’s a lot of issues with the MTA, but we can’t hope to fix them if we can’t stop making things worse. This is yet another expensive political intervention.
It would need to be by organizations like transportation alternatives teaming up with labor marketing MTA related upstate jobs And yeah the MTA is not going to be fixed by suddenly eliminating a funding source at the 11th hour. It’s politics driven decision making that has led to costly issues for the MTA in the past like Fulton center
I mean, you already have Alstom talking about layoffs upstate as a result. Talk about difficult for new yorkers, she’s sending them to the unemployment office.
Well labor and transit advocacy groups know the first people to contact
The spending problem exists with or without the congestion policy existing. It's been known that the MTA has a budgeting issue so there's obviously a core issue that has to be addressed through audits. You can always blame the next new thing whether it be the delay of congestion pricing, but that isn't going to solve the deep rooted problem that the MTA has. And 5 years ago would you have blamed the pause of congestion pricing then?
You can blame suddenly cancelling the start of congestion pricing for cost overruns and delays for subway improvement projects. What the slideshow illustrated. Audits are unlikely to tell us new things. We already know capital projects are expensive and that some people abuse overtime.
You can blame it for over runs and delay of improvement but let's not sit here and pretend that it was the cause of it. Slapping a bandage on it won't fix the mismanaged funds. Even at the end of the day 1 billion in the projected congestion pricing collection is not a dent to how much there MTA is in deficit every year
Delaying congestion pricing is the direct cause for signal modernization, accessibility and subway expansion becoming more expensive. Because this was money set aside by the NYS legislature 5 years ago. >Slapping a bandage on it won’t fix the mismanaged funds Die-Nacht did a fairly thorough response that brought up a major issue causing mismanaged funds: Albany using the MTA as political chess. That would include delaying congestion pricing at the 11th hours You don’t fix mismanaged funds by suddenly and without warning cutting off a funding source. You add more costs and delays
You're basing the fact that the money was set aside by NYS legislature. It could have also not passed. No one is saying mismanaged funds are fixed by cutting off a funding source. I'm saying even without the funds it's still mismanaged, so why are we just throwing more money at the issue? If you have let say a cousin that can't manage his finances, should we just force everyone in the family to pinch in with the hopes that the finances turn around? No. That's what I'm trying to get at and why MTA is overly due for an audit. It doesn't take 3 billion dollars for 23 elevators that's 130million per elevator. You don't see a slight problem with that?
>You’re basing the fact that the money was set aside by NYS legislature Yes, reality. Should we base our argument on fiction? >It could have also not passed It did though. Why are we focusing on hypotheticals instead of what actually happened. >No one is saying you fix mismanaged funds by cutting off a fund source Glad you oppose Hochul’s 11th hour delay of congestion pricing then >why are we throwing more money at the issue Congestion pricing is tied to specific capital programs including accessibility and signal improvements and subway expansion. This is not a general “throw money at the budget” plan. Did you read the MTA presentation posted by OP? >MTA is overly due for an audit…you don’t see a slight problem with that? With all due respect did you not read my or Die Nacht’s comments regarding the limitations of an audit? I already mentioned that we know capital projects are expensive and some people abuse overtime. Die Nacht’s comment mentioned the issues with Albany politics meddling in the MTA and causing budget issues. I recommend you reread our comments.
You should probably base it off reality as the collection of the funds has not even begun. Money that was PROMISED not set aside. That's where you are in delusion of. The legislation passed but where is it now currently? Obviously things can change and hochul paused it indefinitely. No I'm happy hochul paused it because I don't need another tax payer's dollar to be set on fire. Of course I read the presentation, did you not see me say 2billion for 23 elevators? That's 110 mil per elevator. I hope you can address that and justify the spending for that. Die nacht comment does give some valid points that political meddling and causing delays may cause an increase in budget but the fact is how often does this really happen? The VAST MAJORITY of the budget is mismanaged due to faults within MTA and not because of some political game in Albany. If you really think that "some people abuse overtime" can lead to defects of 10bil a year you must be on something. I recommend you live in reality and lay off that copium
So it looks like you didn’t reread my comment where I talked about high capital costs then.
Congestion pricing as passed in 2019 is mandated to collect 1 billion in revenue per year. Off of which the MTA sold 15 billion in bonds. By law congestion pricing needs to start. Congestion pricing is legally binding. You’re fine with taxpayer money being set on fire because of all the capital contracts that are now in jeopardy? That the MTA’s credit rating is at risk and thus worsen the deficit? https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2024/06/26/mta-board-move-may-give-nyc-congestion-pricing-advocates-legal-pathway/74219975007/ >how often does this really happen Literally right now >the VAST MAJORITY of the budget is mismanaged due to faults within the MTA >defect of 10 billion a year Written without a source
It's because they need to keep service active. Only having a couple hours each day for construction is incredibly inefficient. Btw, anyone can perform an audit themselves: https://new.mta.info/transparency/foil.
Crazy enough, they were being audited due to one of the many lawsuits. A judge said that if the MTA's finances are out of control already, they can't imagine how much worse it would be with congestion pricing in effect, which resulted in a full open book audit of their finances. They are several million over budget.
Where can I read about this?
SOB articles like this are the worst type of gaslighting. Here are the facts. See below for just a portion of revenue streams that the MTA has put their fingers into in the last ten years. 2015: MTA Payroll Tax of .34% of payroll to help fund the MTA and improve service 2015: Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District surcharge sales tax of .375% of most items 2015: Subway fare increased 10% to $2.75 Summer of 2017: Piss poor infrastructure resulted in the Summer of Hell across the MTA system July 2023: MTA Payroll Tax almost doubles from .34% to .60% August 2023: Subway fare increased to $2.90 June 2024: Congestion pricing scheduled to begin In the last ten years, the MTA has squeezed more and more money from different sources and with the promise of improved transit. Can you honestly say that was money well spent?
You can tell it’s agenda driven more than anything else. Where’s the $36 billion that wasn’t affected going? From these slides it looks like nothing can get done now.
It’s truly a dark hole. Money goes in and seems gone forever
These are from today's MTA Board meeting presentation.
They can build new stations; but why build it with glass and white everywhere? Looks like a soulless building (airport) and makes you feel like a robot in a dystopian world. And the new rolling stock too look like they were taken from an alien world that doesn't have emotions.
Yeah, I miss when the stations had character. I don't mind the trains but I do wish they had the vibe that New York is known for.
throwing away federal matching funds is among the worst acts of vandalism you can do - it's *literally free money* for the region
I honestly not bummed out that some of these projects are being put on hold.
Depending on where you live, you get nothing.
bro right. 1.5 BILLY on some new fancy subway cars as if that’s what’s the biggest problem is
Are you even aware of what $1.5 billion affords today in the private sector or just balking at a big number? Btw, it almost gets you a brand new NFL stadium that will likely be demolished again in 30 years. These subway cars will likely be running for 30-50 years.
The MTA could be given a money printer directly from the Treasury and still run out of money within months. The MTA is like your crackhead cousin that's always broke and is trying to convince your grandma to sell her TV for crack money
Instead of spending and wasting all that money on digital screens on the walls, and those kiosks out on the streets, all of which are constantly broken by terrible people. Use the money to improve the tracks and give substantial modernization to the stations platforms
Poor comparison. It's significantly easier to block off a section of the platform or street to install a digital screen or kiosk than to block off an active subway line to install new signals that will be in operation for 50-100 years.
The longer the wait the more expensive they get. They ain’t getting any cheaper
I thought they did 63rd street tunnel last year?
Why can’t the MTA charge the true cost of the service? Then the funding issue will be resolved
All political….they gonna get the money…
every slide a knife cutting into the skin
How much is going into politician’s pockets?
You know there are New York State senators in rent stabilized housing?
I live in NY. I’m not commenting on the budgeting. Just layout. I think it’s to combat subway surfing but the open plan for subways is horrifying. They want to remove the barrier? When things get weird, sometimes the only viable option is to get out of one car and into another. A door is your friend. Also contain smells. There has to be a better way.
You know electric busses don’t solve any problems for the earth cause fossil fuels are being burnt to charge them ????
This is such bullshit. The MTA is the most poorly run, wasteful agency on the planet. The MTA would have taken the congestion money, spent it and still nothing would be built.
Yup. They’re afraid of an audit by the NYS Comptroller for a reason!
That’s what gets me mad about this hand-wringing.
How does congestion pricing effect a bridge if congestion pricing is for transit? Wouldn't the bridge have already been in the normal budget?
It wouldn't be in their operating budget, it would be in their multi-year capital budget along with all of the other listed and unlisted items. It's most likely a "sources & uses" based model and when you take a way a major revenue source it is common to see a domino effect. Hypothetically, if the bridge repair was using federal funding from the infrastructure package but another, higher-priority project was relying on congestion pricing to move forward and fits the criteria needed to apply federal funds, the funds will be applied to the higher-priority project and the source is removed from the bridge as it is deferred, delayed or cancelled.
https://new.mta.info/agency/bridges-and-tunnels
Ok and your point? Congestion pricing was earmarked for transit not bridges and tunnels. This should've been covered by their normal budget. Congestion pricing should've had 0 effect on this.
One would think so, but my guess is that since the buses use the bridge, they would allocate some of that money towards it.
I mean that would be sketch, since that would mean almost every bridge and tunnel they oversee could get congestion pricing since buses go over them.
Well, if we're being technical, two of the bridges would automatically qualify if we're solely basing it on transit(Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro as well if you want to add that as well), so I'm pretty sure that the bridges and tunnels would use some of that money for projects(bus lanes on the verrazano would be nice).
They could’ve done the Zero-Emission buses instead of setting up the cameras for congestion pricing.
The MTA were investing in implementing a law on bf books in Albany. The governor is ignoring the law. Take it up with her.
They'd have more money if they actually took fare evasion seriously like in the 70s instead of letting most of these low lives get away with it. With only half the people paying, it's no wonder there's no money for anything. Transportation is NEVER free, whether you use public transportation or own a car (gas, insurance, maintenance, taxes, depreciation, etc.), there's always costs involved. The subway is way cheaper than owning a car yet these people think they're entitled to free rides. Stop relying on federal aid for every little thing and start getting serious with fare evasion if you want money for projects.
Failed state
The MTA never has 'enough' money. They are a failed organization.
So is the government I guess
Rail operation should be on a bid contract. Open up rail business to bidders and watch how the service will improve. Right now the mta has no competition, so what incentive do they have to do better ?!
They are a woefully mismanaged organization.
Bingo. Like $1B would’ve fixed the situation.
“The situation” is traffic. Making it more expensive to be traffic discourages people from driving. It doesn’t matter if every dollar of congestion pricing was thrown in a fire, it would still be worth it in terms of quality of life for the millions of people who have to breathe polluted air, hear endless horn honking, and get killed by drivers.
They should do the congestion pricing in The Bronx then where there are plenty of people breathing polluted air and have higher rates of asthma.
as if the Cross-Bronx Expressway wasn't horrible enough, seriously everything up there needs to be decked
Why would the MTA spend it's money on the poors when the people below 60th Street need clean air
What are the bus and subway improvements funded by wealthier people through congestion pricing going to help then
Lol who are the wealthy people that are funding this? That money is coming from people too poor to live near their jobs. It's crazy cuz my friend was so afraid of the congestion pricing she got a job near her home. She worked for the board of education as a special education teacher. Now a private school in New Jersey that's a ten minute drive from her house is going to pay her less but it's enough for her since she is going to save time and money with the tolls. You would think that the MTA and port authority can afford to give teachers breaks on tolls.
Well that doesn’t answer my question >that money is coming from people too poor to live near the jobs [Vast majority of poor people take transit](https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis)
Hey don't think too logically now, only people living under 60th Street need clear air
Only the best for the best I see. It's not like huge chunks of areas below 60th street are designated commercial only and people don't live there. When will we stop to consider the lungs of the corporations?!
Congestion pricing or not, MTA still spends more money than any other transit agency in the world for any sort of project especially per mile of new subway tunnel. Glad this got canceled. Until The state and city can get their act together and cut down on the red tape and government bureaucracy, MTA will always be a blackhole when it comes to funding.
Imagine the state didn’t have a chokehold on rail operation. If there was healthy competition, we would be #1 in the world for train service. IMO
its all literally a lie. the MTA had a 30 billion dollar hole and needed money. They came up with a plan to charge cars and trucks coming into the city for it and called it "congestion pricing". the MTAs study said it would have little effect on congestion other than tolling the shit out of new yorkers. calling it "congestion pricing" is about as accurate as calling rising prices "inflation" instead of "price gouging" corrupt MTA is making statements about how they mismanaged a 30 billion dollar hole into the city and now theyre stuck trying to pin it on normal middle class people. downvotes dont matter you fools! google it instead of getting your misinformed feelings hurt. take your hurt feelings to MTA and tell them to fix their shit with the other 30 billion dollars that you already paid them
Which study? I’d like to read more about it.
Just get me from Point A to Point B safely. That's all I ask for.
if only our government stopped funding a genocide 🙃
[удалено]
These are projects that would have been funded/implemented over the next 10-15 years. Unless you think all of these can be accomplished in one year?
No. Do you know what municipal bonds are?
What if the mta does a public partnership to extend the 2nd Ave subway. A private company will design/ build it / and operate for a separate fare to complete this project
Like Denver get it built
^ this is a new jersey resident with zero clue and just wants to not pay a toll
^ someone who doesn’t understand basic economics
drop your subway privatization plan below homie 👇
It’s pretty simple, Homie. It’s a bid process. Whoever has the best bid gets the contract for X amount of years with stipulations. Like if they fail to provide so and so, contract can be cancelled. Homie.
if it’s such a great business why has no one ever petitioned the government to run private passenger rail in manhattan since the predecessors went bankrupt?
They need money? I thought mta is so rich they don’t even care about ppl evade fares lol
They can’t even afford to enforce fare payment
So they're holding the passengers hostage if they don't get their way with congestion pricing.
I'm ok with this. The only thing congestion pricing is funding in my borough are 3 elevators. No signal improvements, no new infrastructure, no modernization of the HUB stations. Everything for the people of Manhattan and Brooklyn. I'm not mentioning Queens because they deserve upgrades to the Queens Blvd Line.