Wait, is Crombie's slogan really "Ontario's Next Premier?"
What a terrible slogan. Completely uninspiring. She is living up to my expectations as Liberal leader it seems. My opinion of her is about as high as it was when she was mayor of Mississauga.
If my riding SOMEHOW shifts from a blue/red battleground I will definitely be voting Orange. Marit Styles has been killing it as opposition leader and really needs a PR bump to elevate the party.
Even Hillary Clinton was smart enough to back down from using [Because it’s her turn](https://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-slogan-why-run-because-her-turn-2017-4?amp) as her slogan.
The arrogance of Crombie is shocking.
Its not just Crombie its the whole OLP.
They are still just as rotten as they were during Wynne years.
Electing Crombie as leader over Nathan made that very clear.
I was worried when they didn't have a proper election race, but it all worked out.
I think she has potential. We haven't seen Marit campaign yet. A good campaigner can swing an election.
Hate to say it, but the Ontario liberals have not really learned from any of their failures over the last decade. Until they do and maybe properly reform their party and drop the decision makers tied to Dalton/Wynne/DelDuca, we're going going to get some more dofo.
The way she handled the anti-semitic wing of her party made her appear like a weak leader. Resulting in her dropping in the polls. We will see if she can recover.
I thought maybe this was some kind of satire. When did reddit become Facebook? Yeesh.
So you've functionally admitted that you've dug your heels in and you're incapable of absorbing new information or changing your mind after 30y. Nice approach to life.
Get Proportional representation. The right never polls past 35-37% usually in this country. Letting them or the Libs have a majority with that is insanity
With or without any electoral reform, the OPC has a lock on this province right now with a roughly 18% “majority,” just because their opposition voters are such unreliable whiners. If people want change, or to have a voice at all, they should actually *vote* not just talk a lot on reddit.
Then maybe the opposition needs to get their shit together and offer something that Ontarians want. I seem to recall the Liberals running on further COVID mandates of all things last time, when the pandemic was already on its way out. It didn't help that they ran Del Duca (an unlikable Wynne flunky) as leader, either.
Will never happen. Right now the Libs and Cons both know they get a turn at the reigns every 5-10 years. They aren’t gonna let more players into the game to fuck that up for them
Proportional representation is a good idea in theory but unfortunately it will never actually happen as it would require the party in power to pass a law that takes away a bunch of their own power.
Which is why Justin Trudeau liedabout wanting to change the system, and has since refused to make any reforms. He realized if the refirms went through, the Liberals would never form another government. He also realized Canadian votes are suckers.
He is definitely not my favourite politician but I don’t think he’s unique in that. After all these years, if the NDP finally won and formed their first ever Canadian federal government do you think they would say “ok great, now let’s change the rules to take all of this power away”? And who would blame them?
Reddit claims both that electoral reform would mean the Liberals never win again and that they would never lose again. Which is it? What ever is convenient at the moment?
And Trudeau didn't lie, he formed the committee, involved all the parties, and found there wasn't enough interest or even any agreement on what new system to implement. The same thing has been found multiple times in BC and Ontario. It's really not that popular of an idea outside of reddit.
And can you imagine the shitshow if the Liberals just pushed Electoral reform through without a referendum and support from the majority of the country? It would lead to more people being against than anything.
It's refreshing to see someone knowing/remembering even a bit about the actual story here, but I think you're off on this point, at least to my understanding:
>or even any agreement on what new system to implement.
I thought the committee ended up pretty firmly stating:
A) prop. rep., and
B) referendum.
Trudeau and the Liberals wanted a ranked choice or similar, and no referendum.
Trudeau *should* have simply run on that plan ("if you elect Liberals with enough seats, we'll do X"
If you have a majority in spite of only obtaining 36% of the vote, then changing the rules of the election is insanity. It feels like some objectively bad laws are so set in society that the only way they could be changed is via secession and forming a brand new society.
If the OLP and ONDP really cared most about getting Ford out, they could sign a non-compete agreement so that they don't sabotage each other in competitive seats, but then that would require forming a coalition government which I'm doubtful Liberals would ever agree to in lieu of waiting for an opportunity for a false majority government.
The People's Party got 5% of the vote last federal election. It would have been higher presumably, if people knew that it wasn't a throwaway vote and voting for the PP would guarantee them some seats under PR. Suddenly there's a large actual right-wing party in the legislature, the Tories appear moderate by contrast, and we end up exactly where we are, except with a few communists and fascists thrown in for decoration, like in parts of Europe.
It could even be worse - the far-right party might have crucial swing votes in a minority government situation, and form a coalition government, and they actually get ministers in government.
The big tent effect of the sorta-two party Westminster system has its advantages. I wouldn't mind some more proportionality anyway, but it's no panacea for a better democracy.
It doesn't even have to be proportional representation. Just not only first past the post. Ranked choice or single transferable vote would do some heavy lifting. Doesn't even need to be a huge change overall to the seat setup. Something like shrinking the number of ridings to a fifth and having each riding vote for 5 seats (just as an example) via RC or STV would drastically improve representation
I think what you’re describing IS better democracy, even if it’s not an outcome you agree with. 5% of PPC voting people (who I disagree with!) not being represented isn’t democracy. It may feel good because I disagree with them, but that’s not how things should work, any more than I would want the PPC folks to disregard my vote.
If the outcome of elections more accurately represents the will of the people, people will become more engaged
Are you aware of the political situation in any country that has Proportional Representation?
Like, 70+ parties and an election every 7 months.
It also basically guarantees that only urban centers have any influence.
A lot of people actually like Ford as he is a populist. He will often back down on unpopular decisions. Reddit does not reflect the overall population, so no, Marit Styles will not be the next premier.
People don't get this. I'm not a Ford supporter, but there have been countless times he's proposed an unpopular policy, there has been a vocal public outcry/backlash, and as a result he's listened to the outcry and backed down from the policy.
And people online, including here, clown on him for this.
How can we not understand that *people want their outcry to be heard by their leaders*. If an elected leader puts forth a policy proposal that the people of the province don't want, they view it positively when he backs off rather than ramming it through at all costs. Hearing "well it's a done deal" – a very popular phrase from the Ontario Liberals, such as when Wynne rammed through the sale of Hydro One against public opposition just because "it was a done deal" – is one of the most maddeningly condescending things a politician can say to the electorate.
Anyways. To reiterate, I'm not a Ford supporter. But if you can't see how being able to back off of unpopular policies doesn't win people's support, you shouldn't be surprised when the politicians that do, win.
The irony lol. Wasteful spending and Liberal, tell me a better match in the world!
15 years of the OLP and the Province was drowning in debt, manufacturing jobs lost, hydro prices increasing at an exponential pace (the Liberals made Ontarians feel the sting of inflation even when there was NO inflation and that takes some effort!), healthcare in crisis... WTF did all that spending accomplish except an undeserved smug attitude?
I did not vote for him in 2018 but Doug Ford has been hands down the best Premier we have had in Ontario in my lifetime and I cannot wait for his PC's to win a third straight majority, as they are currently on track to do.
You have to be deficient if you think wasting billions in denying healthcare workers raised during a global pandemic, rolling out and walking back buck a beer, gas sticker, license plates, the greenbelt developments among his nepotism and corrupt cabinet is good governance. I feel bad for you. Hope you're making good money or still suckling on daddy's wallet, cause whatever populist facade you feel for, you'll be paying for in the future when another party is trying to untangle his mess.
But guess what? You're just ignorant to anything going on around you, so it'll be the libs/ndps fault somehow.
The Liberals and NDP are simply too incompetent to govern responsibly. I can't wait until all levels of government have common sense Conservatives in charge. We can finally get back to a normal country then.
Move to the US recently. I pay $12K per year for healthcare coverage and $6500 per year in deductibles. You don’t want to be paying this in Ontario. It’s expensive.
wtf are you talking about? The vast majority of people in the USA can't afford that bullsh\*t, let alone the cost in Canada. Privatized healthcare is a plague on society, not some beneficial pustule.
I travelled to the US and paid for back surgery as it happened within the month. IDK where you are getting this kind of idea from, but if you pay, there is little waiting in the US.
Not sure that I agree with this. It’s obviously very different from state to state and county to county. I moved to Boca Raton. This is the land of old rich people and therefore a massive amount of doctors and specialists. There is literally no waiting for anything medical here. They want your business and have become extremely efficient at specialized care. Everyone is so nice and welcoming all the time. My wife has some pretty serious medical issues with her breast and stomach area. Same day appointment. $80 and you get the MRI, a specialist reviews it right there with you when you’re done, gives you a pink rose on our way out as her breasts were clear of tumors.
That’s been my experience over the last couple of years. The speed of being seen, diagnosed and treated are like Ive never experienced in my 40 years in Canada. You just need to have a lot of money to pay for it.
If I wasn’t saving $80k per year in taxes, I’d have never left Ontario.
They think he's doing a fine job.
Health care - they think the amount they save in taxes will be cheaper then insurance (I've told them insurance is a business to make money) or they don't think they'll need major surgery ever
Education - they think teachers are overpaid, they don't like what's being taught in schools either so do away with it
Elderly care I can't speak on because I don't know anyone in that postion or that talks about it
One of the big thins I noticed and it should bother everyone is how wasteful alot of our tax dollars are spent by either party. What I see from people around me is the right will rally more around it/hate what the liberals do more then liberal leaning people hate what the Conservatives do.
The liberals are horrible at getting their messages across and they need to hammer the conservatives more and more
The NDP are a mess and I don't even know who their leader is off the top of my head.
The NDP are the official opposition. If you've paid *any* attention to Ontario politics you would know it's Marit Styles. She led the charge on the greenbelt fiasco.
Don't forget we only had 30% turnout, too.
I'm in Melbourne and when they crossed my name out at the polling station, literally every other name on the page hadn't been crossed out yet. This was at 8:30PM, so unless the entire town showed up in the half hour after me, they just didn't bother.
Not that it would have helped. My neighbours are one case of Busch Light away from raising a "TRUMP FOR PM" flag in their yards.
The NDP offered me a sign for my yard and I turned it down. I felt like a bit of a coward but I gotta *live* next to these people, you know?
We're on friendly enough terms but I just stay quiet when they start talking politics and find an excuse to head back home. They're usually pretty drunk by late afternoon and I've seen them get quite pissy when my visiting dad made an offhand comment about Trump being an idiot.
It's just a weird time to be alive.
Tbh I understand the appeal. Lots of people I know actively donate and support them after seeing what Trudeau has done so I get it. I might actually start to donate to and I say this as someone who has voted liberal my entire life
He’s running attack ads and campaign ads, she doing 0. So yeah, top of mind matters. It would be so easy for the liberals to retaliate with ads, Dougies attack ads could write themselves. But no, crickets!!
If anyone thinks the high road is the way to win elections in these times, will see what happens in the next couple of years.
The shitty part is, who else do you vote for? Ontario liberals? Never again. Never. Billion dollar scandals every damn time. Billions.... Of your money, disappear. Raising taxes and lowering your quality of life to fund their theft.
NDP? Corrupt beyond belief but hide behind socialism. Champagne socialist to the Nth degree.
Who? Who else do you vote for?
Last election I actually abstained my vote. I voted, but for nobody. What else can we do? I have a list of fantastic centralized policies, am uncorruptable, but I would never run due to our two party system (NDP/LIBERAL VS CONSERVATIVE).
Offer me $10M to push something through that hurts the people? Fuck right off. I have money. I don't need your conditional money, I can make my own.
I feel like the right wealthy person, raised with morals, running in office could make a huge difference. Case and point Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Edit: seeing my comment of being "uncorruptable", my comment of highlighting the problem lies with all current parties, my comment regarding abstaining my vote and asking what can we do short of running ourselves; being down voted, just goes to show the lack of respect and lack of critical thinking those pathetic Ontarians have.
I'll just keep quiet and continue to do great in life while the rest of the down voters continue to suffer. Thanks for shining a light on yourself. It's like watching people injure themselves and down vote any non injured person who speak up about injury prevention. It's almost laughable.
But the ford's provincial Conservatives have also spent billions of our money on scandals now. That's why I don't get the liberal scandal bad people on here. Ford is more Dalton, but with extra helping of Fucking over healthcare and education. And his scandals are directly to benefit his friends for a bunch of shit.
NDP. Vote NDP. I don't get where this idea of corruption comes from, but I agree with you regarding their socialist leanings. The thing is, we know how bad the Liberals and PCs have been for the province. It's time we stop voting for them and start shifting towards better policy and better politics. NDP aren't a great option, but they're a shift in the right direction and we need to be shifting.
Until the NDP start proposing things people really want they'll never win. Housing in particular is a problem, the young and middle class want housing with a bit of yard and are willing to drive hours to get it, while the NDP are pushing for more tiny condos and intensification. Until they understand the electorate we're destined for more Ford and a PP conservative Federal Government.
They all suck.
Conservatives suck the most, hands down. Because they will dismantle social services and fuck regular people. At least Libs / NDP tend to leave that shit alone for the most part and we don't have to jitter our teeth that they will simply scrap our pensions and healthcare (look towards Alberta / UCP).
He did great things for the state of 'Galifawnia'
I've come to realize that people seek absolute perfection in their leaders.
When this happens the problem is not with the leaders, it's with the people.
The PC actually got a bigger share of the vote than 2022 and even if you added Liberal and NDP votes together it still wouldn't have been enough to win. Strap in for more Ford I guess.
Conservative ridings stay conservative.
Milton (formerly part of Halton) has been Conservative for decades outside of the period from 2014-2018 and Lambton—Kent—Middlesex hasn't been Liberal since 2011.
Okay arent both these ridings total PC strongholds? I don't think this is some sort of "Bonnie Crombie is over" omen anymore than it would be saying "Doug Ford is through!" if there was a byelection in DT Toronto and it went to a Liberal.
i mean come on, look at the bigger picture - of course the PCs were going to win. these ridings have had PC reps for years.
Yeah, I don't know why people find these results surprising. The Milton/Halton riding pre and post split had like 2 Liberal MPPs' In 30 years. And iirc one was by a hair.
The Demographics in Milton have shifted pretty rapidly these last 15 years (pretty much same %'s as Brampton now) so I guess folks are expecting a Lib win...we do have a Lib MP currently (though likely not after the next election) the races have gotten a lot tighter as well...a Con MPP win used to be an easy call, the numbers are a lot closer now etc...
Rate % or total numbers? because it's nowhere close.
The top two Demographics for each are as follows
Milton 2021 - European 44.09%, South Asian 28.23%
Brampton 2021 - South Asian 52.42%, European 18.93%
And I have to take issue with it being close wins, they are not. Milton is still Provincially solid Tory.
Ted Chudleigh served from 1995 to 2014, when Indira Naidoo-Harris got elected the swing was only 6 points and a 2% drop off from the Torys. And I doubt this will change for the foreseeable future.
The only time it when slightly more in favour was when parts of Halton were merged with Burlington and Oakville. Even then they were predominantly Tory Ridings.
Doug saved car owners a ton of money by dropping the license renewal fee and giving some relief at the pumps.
No kidding commuter towns will vote for him.
You make fun of it but stuff like that is what people can actually point to and say that it helped them. And it will get votes. People can't put food on the table by preserving the green belt or whatever.
So?
Mocking policies that save the working poor money isn’t exactly the winning strategy you think it is.
That’s why liberals are so out of touch these days.
Not mocking the policy, just showing an example of single-issue type of voter. They vote for the PC if they get a break, any break, without realizing they will be on the hook for private healthcare or education a few years down the line. And when they do realize it, they'll blame Trudeau or whoever public enemy there is and not the real culprit.
Well to be fair McGuinty was responsible for de-listing a *lot* of services from OHIP coverage – even more than Ford. Vision care, for example. So technically yes.
That's not exactly the same as purposefully withholding federal funds for hospitals to purposefully make the service worse in order to bring in private Healthcare.
Yeah, vision coverage would be nice, but what Ford is doing is pretty evil.
Whataboutism isn't really a good defense either. We should be striving for better. We aren't in a two party system.
Speaking on Milton- that should’ve been a win. The Ford govts decision to get rid of housing development fees has put pressure on our municipal budget because we have so much housing development happening here. Coupled with their refusal to allow municipalities to generate other revenues, the only option has been to raise property taxes.
Every decision that this govt makes is putting pressure on municipal budgets, they’re essentially offloading their “cuts” to cities and towns. Even gas taxes, that get distributed to municipalities to fix roads will be hampered because of their cut. Now they’re looking to cut EV charging station electricity rates, which will lead to even less revenue to fix roads.
When the liberal candidate knocked on my door he ran through a general checklist in his head; education, healthcare, hwy 413 but didn’t settle on one thing, it was just a spattering. The message should be “this govt isn’t making things less expensive for you, they’re making things more expensive, it’s no coincidence they’re bragging about cutting costs while your property taxes are going up. Despite their promise to stay out of municipal affairs, they can’t stop.” Poor messaging by the liberals. The OPC candidate had even donated to the OLP in the past. The OLP deserves this loss, hopefully lessons are learned.
# Just how important were the Tories’ byelection wins?
OPINION: In some ways, not much has changed, as the PCs already held both seats. But there are some lessons here for the other parties — and for Ontario voters.
[https://www.tvo.org/article/just-how-important-were-the-tories-byelection-wins](https://www.tvo.org/article/just-how-important-were-the-tories-byelection-wins)
This is what happens when purportedly "smart" people stay home, glued to their phones instead of paying attention to what these fucking assholes are doing to this province. Fortunately my situation allows me to seek other places to live where your illnesses aren't market opportunities for corporate "healthcare". Why would I put up with 8 months of really shitty weather and have to pay out of pocket for health services?
When the PCs got 56% of the vote, merge all you want, you still lose.
It's also unreasonable to think the Liberals and NDP should not separate entities. They are both legitimate as separate.
>Yep. If the two parties merged you'd see a lot of former Liberals jump ship to the PCs, undoubtedly.
I would predict that there would simply be a new party to replace the vacuum of whichever got sucked up. Liberals merge into NDP, and there would be a new 'ontario united' like BC.
It's Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. There was absolutely no chance that any party other than the PCs was getting that win. McNaughton was the MPP for more than a decade and was pretty popular in the communities here.
A 'major loss' for the PCs in the riding would have been getting anything below 50%.
>It's Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. There was absolutely no chance that any party other than the PCs was getting that win.
Im not sure riding mattered here.
>A 'major loss' for the PCs in the riding would have been getting anything below 50%.
It would certainlybe a huge signal for Ford to figure out who is suddenly showing up to the election with any good ideas.
You guys are delusional. If the Liberals and the NDP merged you'd see a huge chunk of Liberal voters go to the PCs instead. The Liberals aren't left-wing in any real sense of the word and on many things are closer to the PCs than the NDP.
Liberals aren't on the left.. Liberal policy is always more resemblant of conservative policy than ndp policy. Or do you see politics like a sports game?
No, the [Overton Window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) has shifted to the right over the past 30+ years, since Reagan. People are getting more and more comfortable with extremist right wing rhetoric, hence the "convoy", antivaxxers during covid, the rising populist hatred for immigration, etc.
He did nothing during the Ottawa occupation. Last I checked, that’s in Ontario. Ford is a buffoon. A slimy criminal, an incompetent moron, and a buffoon.
Liberal Party isn't "left". There is nothing to merge.
They are neoliberal, which is the same underlying political-economic philosophy the Conservative Party follows. The only real difference is the Conservatives don't pretend they won't cut social services.
The NDP is not neoliberal (they are social democrats), but they have extremely weak leadership and have failed to step up and strongly stand up for their values. They need to get back to basics and rally the people they originally stood for - workers and the working class.
Rural communities & trades often go Conservative first choice and NDP second choice or NDP first choice and Conservative second choice.
That confluence of 'traditional values' and 'I work hard with my hands unlike those downtown trust fund yuppies'
This. They need to just merge and act like the BC NDP, but then again it's clear Ontario voters aren't the smartest or critical thinkers, so even that might not work.
Wait, is Crombie's slogan really "Ontario's Next Premier?" What a terrible slogan. Completely uninspiring. She is living up to my expectations as Liberal leader it seems. My opinion of her is about as high as it was when she was mayor of Mississauga. If my riding SOMEHOW shifts from a blue/red battleground I will definitely be voting Orange. Marit Styles has been killing it as opposition leader and really needs a PR bump to elevate the party.
Yeah, that slogan is awful. Completely arrogant and reflective of a party that stands for nothing, except trying to win elections
The key word is trying... No matter how corrupt the ford government has proven it is, they are looking like they will three-peat the next election
Even Hillary Clinton was smart enough to back down from using [Because it’s her turn](https://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-slogan-why-run-because-her-turn-2017-4?amp) as her slogan. The arrogance of Crombie is shocking.
Its not just Crombie its the whole OLP. They are still just as rotten as they were during Wynne years. Electing Crombie as leader over Nathan made that very clear.
It’s almost as if they’ve learned nothing from recent crushing defeats.
The quality of MPP candidates gets worse every election.
I'm lucky in the sense that Marit is my MPP. She is fantastic!
Makes for an easy vote!
Marit >> Andrea .... but will never be ontario's premier.
I was worried when they didn't have a proper election race, but it all worked out. I think she has potential. We haven't seen Marit campaign yet. A good campaigner can swing an election.
Andrea is now my Mayor and she fucking horrible.
Marit is just as annoying, if not worse than Andrea. NDP needs to get back to their roots.
Hate to say it, but the Ontario liberals have not really learned from any of their failures over the last decade. Until they do and maybe properly reform their party and drop the decision makers tied to Dalton/Wynne/DelDuca, we're going going to get some more dofo.
How about “MOGA” “Make Ontario Great Again”
🤢
ඞ
Why didn't she run in any of these byelections since she doesn't even have a seat right now?
You can't lose if you don't run *guy pointing to head meme*
Pretty much. If she can't be parachuted in somewhere for a near sure win then she won't even try. Another chickenshit politician.
They were eyeballing Milton for her but too tight a race.. the loss would have been a pretty big blow to her leadership
It was a blow to her leadership already. Crombie is a self serving coward, just like Doug.
I agree. It sounds self serving.
Under Marit Styles the NDP are dropping in the polls for the last few months. A distant third again in yesterday's elections as well.
She hasn't campaigned yet. After campaigning we will know if she can make it work.
The way she handled the anti-semitic wing of her party made her appear like a weak leader. Resulting in her dropping in the polls. We will see if she can recover.
At least she has a sense of humour. 😂
Awful slogan, but Styles is NDP. We tried that once before and ended up with Rae Days. Never again.
I thought maybe this was some kind of satire. When did reddit become Facebook? Yeesh. So you've functionally admitted that you've dug your heels in and you're incapable of absorbing new information or changing your mind after 30y. Nice approach to life.
What were Rae Days again?
The reason why the NDP will not form government until the voters that lived through it are dead and buried.
Answer the question.
That was 30 years ago...
This sub is so wildly out of step with voters in the real world it really should be studied by a team of scientists.
Most definitely
Take my upvote! People on here just don’t get it
Just a sounding board
I glad about that. Was starting to get worried
If by "real world" you ignore Hamilton, London, Ottawa, Niagara and Toronto sure.
Get Proportional representation. The right never polls past 35-37% usually in this country. Letting them or the Libs have a majority with that is insanity
With or without any electoral reform, the OPC has a lock on this province right now with a roughly 18% “majority,” just because their opposition voters are such unreliable whiners. If people want change, or to have a voice at all, they should actually *vote* not just talk a lot on reddit.
Sorry dude, best we can do is chastise those that don't show up, but continue to complain
Then maybe the opposition needs to get their shit together and offer something that Ontarians want. I seem to recall the Liberals running on further COVID mandates of all things last time, when the pandemic was already on its way out. It didn't help that they ran Del Duca (an unlikable Wynne flunky) as leader, either.
Will never happen. Right now the Libs and Cons both know they get a turn at the reigns every 5-10 years. They aren’t gonna let more players into the game to fuck that up for them
Proportional representation is a good idea in theory but unfortunately it will never actually happen as it would require the party in power to pass a law that takes away a bunch of their own power.
Which is why Justin Trudeau liedabout wanting to change the system, and has since refused to make any reforms. He realized if the refirms went through, the Liberals would never form another government. He also realized Canadian votes are suckers.
He is definitely not my favourite politician but I don’t think he’s unique in that. After all these years, if the NDP finally won and formed their first ever Canadian federal government do you think they would say “ok great, now let’s change the rules to take all of this power away”? And who would blame them?
Me because they are representatives, and their job is to represent our interests. It isn't a job interview.
Reddit claims both that electoral reform would mean the Liberals never win again and that they would never lose again. Which is it? What ever is convenient at the moment? And Trudeau didn't lie, he formed the committee, involved all the parties, and found there wasn't enough interest or even any agreement on what new system to implement. The same thing has been found multiple times in BC and Ontario. It's really not that popular of an idea outside of reddit. And can you imagine the shitshow if the Liberals just pushed Electoral reform through without a referendum and support from the majority of the country? It would lead to more people being against than anything.
It's refreshing to see someone knowing/remembering even a bit about the actual story here, but I think you're off on this point, at least to my understanding: >or even any agreement on what new system to implement. I thought the committee ended up pretty firmly stating: A) prop. rep., and B) referendum. Trudeau and the Liberals wanted a ranked choice or similar, and no referendum. Trudeau *should* have simply run on that plan ("if you elect Liberals with enough seats, we'll do X"
It’s called a conflict of interest and it’s a massive flaw in our democracy
If you have a majority in spite of only obtaining 36% of the vote, then changing the rules of the election is insanity. It feels like some objectively bad laws are so set in society that the only way they could be changed is via secession and forming a brand new society.
The boomers will never let us have mixed member proportional
If the OLP and ONDP really cared most about getting Ford out, they could sign a non-compete agreement so that they don't sabotage each other in competitive seats, but then that would require forming a coalition government which I'm doubtful Liberals would ever agree to in lieu of waiting for an opportunity for a false majority government.
Bingo. The Libs would rather wait 8 years than do what's right. The majority of this country votes left of centre.
If you had a 1 on 1, the outcome would be the same.
The People's Party got 5% of the vote last federal election. It would have been higher presumably, if people knew that it wasn't a throwaway vote and voting for the PP would guarantee them some seats under PR. Suddenly there's a large actual right-wing party in the legislature, the Tories appear moderate by contrast, and we end up exactly where we are, except with a few communists and fascists thrown in for decoration, like in parts of Europe. It could even be worse - the far-right party might have crucial swing votes in a minority government situation, and form a coalition government, and they actually get ministers in government. The big tent effect of the sorta-two party Westminster system has its advantages. I wouldn't mind some more proportionality anyway, but it's no panacea for a better democracy.
It doesn't even have to be proportional representation. Just not only first past the post. Ranked choice or single transferable vote would do some heavy lifting. Doesn't even need to be a huge change overall to the seat setup. Something like shrinking the number of ridings to a fifth and having each riding vote for 5 seats (just as an example) via RC or STV would drastically improve representation
This exactly! Biased because this is the Irish system where I live now.
I think what you’re describing IS better democracy, even if it’s not an outcome you agree with. 5% of PPC voting people (who I disagree with!) not being represented isn’t democracy. It may feel good because I disagree with them, but that’s not how things should work, any more than I would want the PPC folks to disregard my vote. If the outcome of elections more accurately represents the will of the people, people will become more engaged
Are you aware of the political situation in any country that has Proportional Representation? Like, 70+ parties and an election every 7 months. It also basically guarantees that only urban centers have any influence.
Well if people voted strategically the cons wouldn’t win
A lot of people actually like Ford as he is a populist. He will often back down on unpopular decisions. Reddit does not reflect the overall population, so no, Marit Styles will not be the next premier.
People don't get this. I'm not a Ford supporter, but there have been countless times he's proposed an unpopular policy, there has been a vocal public outcry/backlash, and as a result he's listened to the outcry and backed down from the policy. And people online, including here, clown on him for this. How can we not understand that *people want their outcry to be heard by their leaders*. If an elected leader puts forth a policy proposal that the people of the province don't want, they view it positively when he backs off rather than ramming it through at all costs. Hearing "well it's a done deal" – a very popular phrase from the Ontario Liberals, such as when Wynne rammed through the sale of Hydro One against public opposition just because "it was a done deal" – is one of the most maddeningly condescending things a politician can say to the electorate. Anyways. To reiterate, I'm not a Ford supporter. But if you can't see how being able to back off of unpopular policies doesn't win people's support, you shouldn't be surprised when the politicians that do, win.
I'd prefer the backstep occurs before he wastes billions of dollars mmhkay, maybe listen to consultants they hire before pushing dogshit legislation?
The irony lol. Wasteful spending and Liberal, tell me a better match in the world! 15 years of the OLP and the Province was drowning in debt, manufacturing jobs lost, hydro prices increasing at an exponential pace (the Liberals made Ontarians feel the sting of inflation even when there was NO inflation and that takes some effort!), healthcare in crisis... WTF did all that spending accomplish except an undeserved smug attitude? I did not vote for him in 2018 but Doug Ford has been hands down the best Premier we have had in Ontario in my lifetime and I cannot wait for his PC's to win a third straight majority, as they are currently on track to do.
You have to be deficient if you think wasting billions in denying healthcare workers raised during a global pandemic, rolling out and walking back buck a beer, gas sticker, license plates, the greenbelt developments among his nepotism and corrupt cabinet is good governance. I feel bad for you. Hope you're making good money or still suckling on daddy's wallet, cause whatever populist facade you feel for, you'll be paying for in the future when another party is trying to untangle his mess. But guess what? You're just ignorant to anything going on around you, so it'll be the libs/ndps fault somehow.
The Liberals and NDP are simply too incompetent to govern responsibly. I can't wait until all levels of government have common sense Conservatives in charge. We can finally get back to a normal country then.
Well. Get ready to pay $9000 a year for health care coverage that has a $15,000 a year deductible like they have in the US.
Move to the US recently. I pay $12K per year for healthcare coverage and $6500 per year in deductibles. You don’t want to be paying this in Ontario. It’s expensive.
wtf are you talking about? The vast majority of people in the USA can't afford that bullsh\*t, let alone the cost in Canada. Privatized healthcare is a plague on society, not some beneficial pustule.
...and still wait for surgeries and specialists
I travelled to the US and paid for back surgery as it happened within the month. IDK where you are getting this kind of idea from, but if you pay, there is little waiting in the US.
Not sure that I agree with this. It’s obviously very different from state to state and county to county. I moved to Boca Raton. This is the land of old rich people and therefore a massive amount of doctors and specialists. There is literally no waiting for anything medical here. They want your business and have become extremely efficient at specialized care. Everyone is so nice and welcoming all the time. My wife has some pretty serious medical issues with her breast and stomach area. Same day appointment. $80 and you get the MRI, a specialist reviews it right there with you when you’re done, gives you a pink rose on our way out as her breasts were clear of tumors. That’s been my experience over the last couple of years. The speed of being seen, diagnosed and treated are like Ive never experienced in my 40 years in Canada. You just need to have a lot of money to pay for it. If I wasn’t saving $80k per year in taxes, I’d have never left Ontario.
>You just need to have a lot of money to pay for it. sweet, that's not really a solution for the vast majority of us, then
There is literally 0 indication this is happening lol pure fear mongering.
The people have spoken. /r/ontario in shambles, lol.
What the fuck? Who looks at what Ford's been doing and thinks he's doing a good job? I'm so pissed the fuck people wake up
I live in the Lambton riding. People here are so anti Liberal, the Cons could run a pile of manure as a candidate and win with over 50% of the votes.
But do these people not need health care, elderly care, or proper education? Or are these largely untouched by Dougies greasy hands.
They think he's doing a fine job. Health care - they think the amount they save in taxes will be cheaper then insurance (I've told them insurance is a business to make money) or they don't think they'll need major surgery ever Education - they think teachers are overpaid, they don't like what's being taught in schools either so do away with it Elderly care I can't speak on because I don't know anyone in that postion or that talks about it One of the big thins I noticed and it should bother everyone is how wasteful alot of our tax dollars are spent by either party. What I see from people around me is the right will rally more around it/hate what the liberals do more then liberal leaning people hate what the Conservatives do. The liberals are horrible at getting their messages across and they need to hammer the conservatives more and more The NDP are a mess and I don't even know who their leader is off the top of my head.
The NDP are the official opposition. If you've paid *any* attention to Ontario politics you would know it's Marit Styles. She led the charge on the greenbelt fiasco.
We're the best/tied for best province for heathcare, elderly care, and education. BC is the only comparable.
Don't forget we only had 30% turnout, too. I'm in Melbourne and when they crossed my name out at the polling station, literally every other name on the page hadn't been crossed out yet. This was at 8:30PM, so unless the entire town showed up in the half hour after me, they just didn't bother. Not that it would have helped. My neighbours are one case of Busch Light away from raising a "TRUMP FOR PM" flag in their yards.
My neighbor has a F Trudeau flag hanging in his garage. Great thing to have with two 3 year old daughters running around.
The NDP offered me a sign for my yard and I turned it down. I felt like a bit of a coward but I gotta *live* next to these people, you know? We're on friendly enough terms but I just stay quiet when they start talking politics and find an excuse to head back home. They're usually pretty drunk by late afternoon and I've seen them get quite pissy when my visiting dad made an offhand comment about Trump being an idiot. It's just a weird time to be alive.
Both of these ridings have overwhelmingly voted conservative since like the 40's. They clearly vote blue no matter who's running.
Tbh I understand the appeal. Lots of people I know actively donate and support them after seeing what Trudeau has done so I get it. I might actually start to donate to and I say this as someone who has voted liberal my entire life
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He’s running attack ads and campaign ads, she doing 0. So yeah, top of mind matters. It would be so easy for the liberals to retaliate with ads, Dougies attack ads could write themselves. But no, crickets!! If anyone thinks the high road is the way to win elections in these times, will see what happens in the next couple of years.
The shitty part is, who else do you vote for? Ontario liberals? Never again. Never. Billion dollar scandals every damn time. Billions.... Of your money, disappear. Raising taxes and lowering your quality of life to fund their theft. NDP? Corrupt beyond belief but hide behind socialism. Champagne socialist to the Nth degree. Who? Who else do you vote for? Last election I actually abstained my vote. I voted, but for nobody. What else can we do? I have a list of fantastic centralized policies, am uncorruptable, but I would never run due to our two party system (NDP/LIBERAL VS CONSERVATIVE). Offer me $10M to push something through that hurts the people? Fuck right off. I have money. I don't need your conditional money, I can make my own. I feel like the right wealthy person, raised with morals, running in office could make a huge difference. Case and point Arnold Schwarzenegger. Edit: seeing my comment of being "uncorruptable", my comment of highlighting the problem lies with all current parties, my comment regarding abstaining my vote and asking what can we do short of running ourselves; being down voted, just goes to show the lack of respect and lack of critical thinking those pathetic Ontarians have. I'll just keep quiet and continue to do great in life while the rest of the down voters continue to suffer. Thanks for shining a light on yourself. It's like watching people injure themselves and down vote any non injured person who speak up about injury prevention. It's almost laughable.
But the ford's provincial Conservatives have also spent billions of our money on scandals now. That's why I don't get the liberal scandal bad people on here. Ford is more Dalton, but with extra helping of Fucking over healthcare and education. And his scandals are directly to benefit his friends for a bunch of shit.
NDP. Vote NDP. I don't get where this idea of corruption comes from, but I agree with you regarding their socialist leanings. The thing is, we know how bad the Liberals and PCs have been for the province. It's time we stop voting for them and start shifting towards better policy and better politics. NDP aren't a great option, but they're a shift in the right direction and we need to be shifting.
NDP shifted too far from a workers party into an identity pol party. Lost a lot of support.
yeah…spend 5 minutes in vancouver and say that🙄
Until the NDP start proposing things people really want they'll never win. Housing in particular is a problem, the young and middle class want housing with a bit of yard and are willing to drive hours to get it, while the NDP are pushing for more tiny condos and intensification. Until they understand the electorate we're destined for more Ford and a PP conservative Federal Government.
You vote for anybody but the Conservatives.
They all suck. Conservatives suck the most, hands down. Because they will dismantle social services and fuck regular people. At least Libs / NDP tend to leave that shit alone for the most part and we don't have to jitter our teeth that they will simply scrap our pensions and healthcare (look towards Alberta / UCP).
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He did great things for the state of 'Galifawnia' I've come to realize that people seek absolute perfection in their leaders. When this happens the problem is not with the leaders, it's with the people.
The PC actually got a bigger share of the vote than 2022 and even if you added Liberal and NDP votes together it still wouldn't have been enough to win. Strap in for more Ford I guess.
The suburbs always seem to decide our fate
Lambton-Kent-Middlesex is hardly a suburb.
Conservative ridings stay conservative. Milton (formerly part of Halton) has been Conservative for decades outside of the period from 2014-2018 and Lambton—Kent—Middlesex hasn't been Liberal since 2011.
Okay arent both these ridings total PC strongholds? I don't think this is some sort of "Bonnie Crombie is over" omen anymore than it would be saying "Doug Ford is through!" if there was a byelection in DT Toronto and it went to a Liberal. i mean come on, look at the bigger picture - of course the PCs were going to win. these ridings have had PC reps for years.
Yeah, I don't know why people find these results surprising. The Milton/Halton riding pre and post split had like 2 Liberal MPPs' In 30 years. And iirc one was by a hair.
The Demographics in Milton have shifted pretty rapidly these last 15 years (pretty much same %'s as Brampton now) so I guess folks are expecting a Lib win...we do have a Lib MP currently (though likely not after the next election) the races have gotten a lot tighter as well...a Con MPP win used to be an easy call, the numbers are a lot closer now etc...
Rate % or total numbers? because it's nowhere close. The top two Demographics for each are as follows Milton 2021 - European 44.09%, South Asian 28.23% Brampton 2021 - South Asian 52.42%, European 18.93% And I have to take issue with it being close wins, they are not. Milton is still Provincially solid Tory. Ted Chudleigh served from 1995 to 2014, when Indira Naidoo-Harris got elected the swing was only 6 points and a 2% drop off from the Torys. And I doubt this will change for the foreseeable future. The only time it when slightly more in favour was when parts of Halton were merged with Burlington and Oakville. Even then they were predominantly Tory Ridings.
If I was Bonnie, I'd be doing some serious soul-searching along with a handful of trusted OLP tall foreheads to figure out next-steps.
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Fuck everyone who votes liberal, they fuck themselves.
Guys, guys, no need to argue as they're both shit choices.
one is shit. the other is shit shit shit shit (doug)
I don't disagree but I'm still going to avoid and call both of them out on their garbage.
I miss "progressive" conservatives, in Alberta. Now we just have wild right wing authoritarians. Count your blessings, Ontario.
Seems like as much hate there is for Doug Ford there is less so for the Ontario PC Party and the policies.
Distaste for the liberals imo
Doug saved car owners a ton of money by dropping the license renewal fee and giving some relief at the pumps. No kidding commuter towns will vote for him.
I know someone who fully supports Ford’s government because he doesn’t have to pay for his license plate renewal anymore
You make fun of it but stuff like that is what people can actually point to and say that it helped them. And it will get votes. People can't put food on the table by preserving the green belt or whatever.
Ironically the green belt is what got him into the most hot water with his base
So? Mocking policies that save the working poor money isn’t exactly the winning strategy you think it is. That’s why liberals are so out of touch these days.
Not mocking the policy, just showing an example of single-issue type of voter. They vote for the PC if they get a break, any break, without realizing they will be on the hook for private healthcare or education a few years down the line. And when they do realize it, they'll blame Trudeau or whoever public enemy there is and not the real culprit.
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Single issue voters who ignore the big picture? Trud's core base.
Bonnie was the wrong person. Doug will steam roll her unless he gets charged.
We are trying our best to challenge Alberta for the title of Dumbest Province.
What election? Was there something I could have voted for online? Nobody told me of an election happening recently.
This was a by-election in those specific ridings so you couldn't vote unless you lived there
Ontario is cooked. I don't understand how anyone can see how the cons have run this province and say "yes, more of that please"
To be fair did mcguinty/wynne do any better? Just different terrible.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but yeah, they did. Neither of them tried to dismantle our healthcare.
Well to be fair McGuinty was responsible for de-listing a *lot* of services from OHIP coverage – even more than Ford. Vision care, for example. So technically yes.
That's not exactly the same as purposefully withholding federal funds for hospitals to purposefully make the service worse in order to bring in private Healthcare. Yeah, vision coverage would be nice, but what Ford is doing is pretty evil. Whataboutism isn't really a good defense either. We should be striving for better. We aren't in a two party system.
Speaking on Milton- that should’ve been a win. The Ford govts decision to get rid of housing development fees has put pressure on our municipal budget because we have so much housing development happening here. Coupled with their refusal to allow municipalities to generate other revenues, the only option has been to raise property taxes. Every decision that this govt makes is putting pressure on municipal budgets, they’re essentially offloading their “cuts” to cities and towns. Even gas taxes, that get distributed to municipalities to fix roads will be hampered because of their cut. Now they’re looking to cut EV charging station electricity rates, which will lead to even less revenue to fix roads. When the liberal candidate knocked on my door he ran through a general checklist in his head; education, healthcare, hwy 413 but didn’t settle on one thing, it was just a spattering. The message should be “this govt isn’t making things less expensive for you, they’re making things more expensive, it’s no coincidence they’re bragging about cutting costs while your property taxes are going up. Despite their promise to stay out of municipal affairs, they can’t stop.” Poor messaging by the liberals. The OPC candidate had even donated to the OLP in the past. The OLP deserves this loss, hopefully lessons are learned.
Progressive Conservatism, an oxymoron.
# Just how important were the Tories’ byelection wins? OPINION: In some ways, not much has changed, as the PCs already held both seats. But there are some lessons here for the other parties — and for Ontario voters. [https://www.tvo.org/article/just-how-important-were-the-tories-byelection-wins](https://www.tvo.org/article/just-how-important-were-the-tories-byelection-wins)
Completely crazy! Who would vote PC after all they have done to Ontario! 🤦♀️
Let’s goooooo!!!
Won’t life be worse for most people in Ontario if conservatives win? Isn’t that a bad thing?
Detroiter3 wouldn't care.
Everyone here needs to go check out the Ontario NDP tiktok 🐱🐈⬛
oh ontario....
Boomers in Lambton County really seem to like the way the healthcare system is heading.
Only 28% of registered voters showed up for the Milton By-election.
What the hell are people thinking? Unbelievable. These people must be related to the folks in America who will still vote for Trump!
This is what happens when purportedly "smart" people stay home, glued to their phones instead of paying attention to what these fucking assholes are doing to this province. Fortunately my situation allows me to seek other places to live where your illnesses aren't market opportunities for corporate "healthcare". Why would I put up with 8 months of really shitty weather and have to pay out of pocket for health services?
Oof Time to merge the left?
Not all Liberal voters would vote NDP - many would switch to PC, so the PC would have had an even larger win if the left united.
I’m not saying fold the liberals. I’m saying the left need a party that isn’t useless.
The left needs a party in general. Libs and NDP both push neoliberal ideas (as do the cons tbh).
When the PCs got 56% of the vote, merge all you want, you still lose. It's also unreasonable to think the Liberals and NDP should not separate entities. They are both legitimate as separate.
Liberals are closer to the Conservatives than the ndp. People who ask for a merger of ndp and liberal parties usually have a juvenile understanding
Yep. If the two parties merged you'd see a lot of former Liberals jump ship to the PCs, undoubtedly.
>Yep. If the two parties merged you'd see a lot of former Liberals jump ship to the PCs, undoubtedly. I would predict that there would simply be a new party to replace the vacuum of whichever got sucked up. Liberals merge into NDP, and there would be a new 'ontario united' like BC.
That's also a possibility, good point.
It's Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. There was absolutely no chance that any party other than the PCs was getting that win. McNaughton was the MPP for more than a decade and was pretty popular in the communities here. A 'major loss' for the PCs in the riding would have been getting anything below 50%.
>It's Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. There was absolutely no chance that any party other than the PCs was getting that win. Im not sure riding mattered here. >A 'major loss' for the PCs in the riding would have been getting anything below 50%. It would certainlybe a huge signal for Ford to figure out who is suddenly showing up to the election with any good ideas.
You guys are delusional. If the Liberals and the NDP merged you'd see a huge chunk of Liberal voters go to the PCs instead. The Liberals aren't left-wing in any real sense of the word and on many things are closer to the PCs than the NDP.
Liberals aren't on the left.. Liberal policy is always more resemblant of conservative policy than ndp policy. Or do you see politics like a sports game?
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Libs and cons are two faces of the same coin (economically).
No, the [Overton Window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) has shifted to the right over the past 30+ years, since Reagan. People are getting more and more comfortable with extremist right wing rhetoric, hence the "convoy", antivaxxers during covid, the rising populist hatred for immigration, etc.
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He did nothing during the Ottawa occupation. Last I checked, that’s in Ontario. Ford is a buffoon. A slimy criminal, an incompetent moron, and a buffoon.
Liberal Party isn't "left". There is nothing to merge. They are neoliberal, which is the same underlying political-economic philosophy the Conservative Party follows. The only real difference is the Conservatives don't pretend they won't cut social services. The NDP is not neoliberal (they are social democrats), but they have extremely weak leadership and have failed to step up and strongly stand up for their values. They need to get back to basics and rally the people they originally stood for - workers and the working class.
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When?
Rural communities & trades often go Conservative first choice and NDP second choice or NDP first choice and Conservative second choice. That confluence of 'traditional values' and 'I work hard with my hands unlike those downtown trust fund yuppies'
This. They need to just merge and act like the BC NDP, but then again it's clear Ontario voters aren't the smartest or critical thinkers, so even that might not work.
The way the public is conned into voting for cons does suggest bye to elections. The NDP hold out areas will be punished like Edmonton and Calgary.