This preview has got me very excited to see more! It's nice to see that unique units like Ghaz aren't locked to a single tribe, which grants us flexibility on what characters we want to use. It's also nice to see how the WAAAAGH!! just works on EVERY model, rather than having to micromanage who gets what benefit.
I'm very curious to see how they accommodate for different Ork playstyles. I like the idea of them making a tribe specifically for dread mobs.
... if you are comparing this data to 9th edition data. Then yes we lost.... but this isn't 9th edition. You won't be facing 9th edition armies. 9th edition strats, and rules will not apply. For all we know, this is the best thing an ork army needs in 10th edition. Comparing apples to oranges will only lead to disappointment. The rules are designed for a completely different game, so who's to say they are weaker? Or stronger? Nothing is a nerf when the game is redesigned from the ground up. There are many, many posts on here complaining, but little reflection on 10th edition rules. It's like complaining that in 5th edition orks did such and such, and that's gone now, and somehow that makes them bad? Start getting good at the game, and look at the 10th edition rules we have, and ignore 9th. 9th is dead, and irrelevant to how good this army will be in 10th.
I’m happy about the ‘Get Stuck In’, since I’m rounding out a choppa/big choppa unit of Nobz, and moving to get a unit of choppa/choppa Boyz together. Nice and stabby.
I di have a question though - and please forgive my ignorance, I’ve not played in the last 15-ish years: 10th Ed. is the codex? Or the overall rules for the game? Am I replacing the rule book I got with my Space Marine/Necron box _and_ my Ork Codex? Or just the codex? Or is this new stuff errata? Apologies for my living under a rock this past decade-and-then-some.
You know what I really wanted from this edition? Allowing my 4000pts collection to be usable without having to buy 2/3 of that in newer stuff to be competitive. Now, again, it’s beast snagga boyz, buy 60 of ‘em because you might as well not even try to run standard boyz
Except we haven't even seen Boyz yet, so what's the point being fatalistic about it?
Besides, if they're really that unplayable, just run your Choppa Boyz as Snaggas. "Yeah, my Snaggas all wear pants over their monster bones."
They probably will because in theory they would join units the way that the liutenant does. So they can't be left behind by a charge and then sniped off the board
Well...looks like I'll be buying some Meganobz if I want to run Ghaz. I sure hope we get something proper scary and killy cause so far I feel pretty meh.
Not in this initial 10th edition launch index (as far as we know), unknown for when our codex launches. My personal belief is they will have detachments in codex that reflect the current clan descriptions, but not force people to adopt a single clan to use those, and instead allow the clan flavor to be more in how want your force portrayed.
Personal thoughts:
* The lack of a speedwaaagh is very disappointing. Melee only buff means our non-flamer (aka just one) vehicles continue to suck.
* 'ere we go becoming a stratagem isn't that bad. If we can get some sort of way to regenerate CPs Orks will feel pretty good.
* Beastsnaggas getting 5+ save is pretty nice.
* Ghaz' stats drop isn't that bad considering you can run him in a unit. But I'd like to see what units we can run him in. Just Meganobz?
* Squigbuggy lost its entire arsenal! A bit harsh, don't you think?
* Stompa's weapon changes are nice. But what about the rest of its stats and cost?
Speedwaaagh is undoubtedly going to be tied to a Detachment. Everyone knew that was going to be the case going in if they've paid attention to what GW has said so far about Detachments/subfactions. Be patient; we're one of the first wave Codex releases, you'll get your Speedwaaagh.
>squigbuggy's arsenal is its variety of munitions for the one weapon
Not in 9th edition? It's literally just a indirect fire blast weapon, no multiple munitions.
If you look at the Imperial Knights and Tau previews they only show specific weapons in the same way. If it only had one weapon why not show the whole datasheet like the Beast Snaggas and Gahz?
On the whole it's looking good. That said, I'm a little disappointed that the detachment was the Goffs one. I was hoping for some form of 'ere we go instead. Failing charges sucks. And yeah, we got a strategem for it. But CP is precious and it's also locked to a detachment.
I really hope Ghaz isn't limited to leading Meganobs
Surprised we kept the AP on the choppas. Also surprised we kept the Waaaugh as is (at least the first turn). Overall I'm pretty satsified
In the article they said : " and as the Prophet of Da Great Waaagh!, his bodyguard of [Meganobz](https://www.games-workshop.com/Meganobz) gets even choppier."
So it will be Meganobz i think !
Everyone got nerfed but our nerf is so incredibly slight that I'm very excited to use my boys again. It's going to play a bit different but da jump into a 7" charge is exactly my kind of language.
'Ere we go is probably one of the things nerfed hardest which is unfortunate for da jump charges or any charges really. I'm not too bothered by it but I predict us ork players are going to miss a lot more charges we used to make. We'll have to adapt.
Well in saying that, the strat is a more consistent in on one unit, big blobs also seem to be a viable thing with the current direction. Less hailmarys though
As a Badmoons player I am disappointed in most of this due to the lack of effects on shooting. But other than the major nerf to Ghaz and Whaagh I feel this is good for melee armies.
It was pointed out to me that ghaz is nerfed by 9th edition but with 10th he gets to use makari and meganobz as shields to help deliver him into combat. Makari alone can sluff off a load of shots with his 2++ save so that makes it less a nerf for melee. I agree with the shooting though. I wanna see what bikes and buggies do as well as how much points run before I get too excited.
Looks awesome. Waaagh is relatively unchanged, all be it slightly nerfed (but nerf feels in line with what most armies got to their main ability), Beast Snaggas still unfortunately look like just better Boyz but I'm hoping either Boyz demonstrate way more worth in the index or Beastsnaggas get a big point jump more than them. Seems like we're becoming a faster army though which as a Death Guard player sounds really fun. Don't really care about any of the Stompa stuff but the Weirdknob looks like exactly what I've wanted out of Orks for a while and if that's the design paradigm model for most of our stuff then I think we're gonna be just fine.
Also, on a smaller note, as a Death Guard player the 6+ FNP here makes me feel that the whole "Nurgle keyword granting a 5+ FNP" rumor might actually have some ground to it, seeing as at this point these saves are so wide-spread it'd feel downright bizarre for it not to be a universal nurgle thing.
I do think the units they decided to show off are weird, regular Boyz seemed like a more obvious pick, regardless though at this point we're like 2 weeks off of the release of 10th so we won't be waiting long on that stuff.
All in all, as someone who felt like they got gutted in the last Faction Preview one of my armies got, this looks just fine. Maybe not the most exciting but it's still enough to basically lock me in for playing Orks as my main for 10th.
The units they shown off were definitely odd for sure, I couldnt care at all about the stompa, it could be the dogs bollocks and I still wont be using mine, some thing should only exist in apocalypse. I wish they showed off standard Boyz over Snaggas, not that I dislike them (I have 80) but itd answer a lot more questions for us like common cross platform weapon profiles for Shootas, Big Shootas, Rokkit Launchas, Big Choppas and Power Klaws.
Im very much on the fence with Ghaz, I get why hes just toughness 6 but it feels weird that he is so far below Roboute who is T9. Makes you question if Meganobz will get a toughness boost to 6 like how terminators got boosted to 5. Im curious what theyll do for Meganobz to make them standout from their imperial cousins other than being cheaper and more flimsy (unless they give them an invuln stock). He is very much like Abaddon where he has a huge wound sink with his unit it just rubs me the wrong way. I still wish he got a sweep profile, other than Makari if feels hes rather lacking compared to the other Supreme Commanders weve seen, so hopefully he is a lot more cheaper than them, and they go up above 400pts.
Not too impressed with Waaagh, out of all the factions we are the ones with a one turn gimmick and a gimmick that will be telegraphed if you are going second. Waaaghs build up until they reach fever point and boil over, should really have been a simplified version of Big Waaagh from AoS.
Profile wise:
Power Snappa dropping an AP is sad. Was to be expected with 10th but I dont really see how Snaggas are fighting Vehicles and monsters at all when they wound the vast majority of them on 6s (T10+). Rerolling to hit and AP 1 isnt gonna help.
Thump Gun is even more useless. Lost an AP. I though maybe itd mirror the Imperial Guard Grenade Launcher to some degree which got a huge glow up from its old profile its had since the beginning of time (now str 9 ap 2 from str 6 ap 1).
Squig Launcha took a side grade. They merged to 2 guns, keeping the longer range of 36" with a kinda similar shot count, 3d6 to d6+6, but then lost BS4 for the heavy and lost and AP down to 1. Hopefully its cheaper than 95pts to compensate.
Ghaz also had a side grade of sorts. No longer degrades and has 6 attacks base instead of 5, but cant get to 7 attacks base but his strength isnt paying the cost for it. He lost an AP and rerolls to hit but now gives his unit (including himself) +1 to hit and wound which is actually really good. He just barely kills a Land Raider by himself. Abaddon and Roboute cant do that.
Stompa ill ignore.
Im not tapping out from Orkz, I think they will be fine but it will definitely shake up our mindset a bit! We dont have the cushion of reroll charges to fall back on and Waaagh feels even more crucial to time right and do as much as you can.
Listen, I’ve been telling people to sit down and shut up about their stuff being ‘nerfed’ because we already know the power scale is changing. But Ghaz is just so much worse, and him and Makari sharing a toughness makes absolutely no sense. He’s like a primarch for us and not only did his toughness go down in the edition that the big guys toughness went up, he also lost wounds. The wound cap I’m not sad about at all cause we knew we’d lose that and it’s a really dumb ability for us anyway. He’s basically just a glorified Megaboss now. He didn’t get more interesting, he didn’t get tankier, and now Makari is baked in so his points probably won’t decrease drastically. He’s my favourite character in the game period and seeing him not only miss out on the tankiness buff but actively get squishier is really disappointing.
I dont think Ghaz is so much worse, more a sidegrade if anything, Whilst his toughess is weird, it makes sense due to the fact hes buried in a squad of MANz whilst also have Makari as his last line of defence. I wont lie I was also taken back with him having less toughness than Roboute but its also key to remember Ghaz is no way near the same ball park of any Primarch and hopefully his cost reflects that. Primarchs shouldnt be sub 400-500pts, Ghaz can sit happy in the high 200s and low 300s. Changing him to infantry was a suprise but welcome change, not that anything interacts with infantry that I know of other than combi weapons and we havent really seen anti-monster stuff other than the Thundercoil Harpoon. His melee is roughly the same, he doesnt degrade (like anything anymore) and has a nice even 6 attacks, 7 during a Waaagh whilst also having +1 to hit and wound whilst hes in his unit at the cost of 1 AP. Pair it with lethal hits odds are hes killing a Land Raider by the decimal point.
What will be interesting is if he can actually fit in a Battlewagon with MANZ, he cant be taking up 18 slots anymore (though with his size he should haha).
Your missing a big part I think. Mākari is a part of the squad too. And he has a +2 invulnerable. MEANING, once the squad is dead, Makari has to fail a save before ghaz even takes a wound. That’s huge! Here come a shot from a thundercoil harpoon for 12 dmg? 2 up. Good. And he lost monster key word. So he can be in a squad of manz, in a vehicle, with a 2+ invuln? Dude, Ghaz is still awesome!!
Makari has 1w tho... even with his higher toughness with anti infantry being a thing bolters statically a squad of bolter marines will remove the invuln save all he has to do is fail one save (20 shit with anti infantry 4+ hitting in 3s is 12 hits, 6ws 17% fail chance says he's fails one and dies) Sure the 2+ is awesome but it's really looks alot better on paper than it will be on the field I field. Once Makari is down ghazzy will get shredded is the feeling I'm getting from the data sheets so far
And let's keep in mind Abby and guilleman give their boyz re rolls so marines/csm will have an easier time dealing with ghaz as well..
I’m thoroughly underwhelmed by Ghaz’s inability to stand on his own though. He’s stands around the same height as a primarch and yet he’s only 1T higher than Boyz… I like that he can lead a unit but I really don’t like that he’s being carried defence-wise by Makari.
Abaddon is also in the same boat, its important to note that neither is getting sniped as soon as you waddle something within 12" unlike Roboute, and as I said above it feels jarring and unorky for the Big Boss to be T6 but it really doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things when he will always be in a squad. In the lore he has his Goff Guard Bully Boyz that are always with him, yet in all of 9th he just up and left them on Armaggedon like a chump. He is still a one man wrecking crew, which I stated prior he still flips a T12 2+ save 16 wound unit on the exact wound where as before he wouldnt.
Ultimately it comes down to points, what MANz are like and the delivery system. We have no clue if you can fit Ghaz and 5 MANZ in a Battlewagon. We dont know if Tellyporta is even around (100% isnt seeing as we dont have CP until the game begins).
Yeah man everybody pointing out that he can be attached to a group of meganobz is missing the point. Our big monster one man wrecking crew is now just a guy who needs a bunch of cronies.
Yeah but to me this plays more like the comic relief faction. Big boss hides behind little grot with 2++ instead of just having a stat line to fit the models. I don’t hate it as much as I initially did but it’s still hard too take seriously.
Orks have gotten faster. That ‘Ere We Go strat can’t be used on deep strikers, but it **does** mean a 7” charge on a unit that you Da Jump. And Da Jump now goes off on a 2+.
Waaagh giving **everyone** advance and charge is big news for Deff Dreads, plus some corner cases like my Shokkjump Dragstas. We will be in anybody’s face T1 if we want to.
And that’s on top of the new disembark rules, Meks that buff shooting out of transports, and the possibility of Assault Ramp on any of our vehicles.
Other scattered thoughts:
I want to see what units Ghaz can lead. MANz are okay, but can he lead a squad of Kans?
Can we take Makari separately again? Because a Lethal Hits aura combined with Beast Snaggas innate re-roll agains monsters and vehicles means a big mob can put a **lot** of hurt on even very tough targets. Like ~25 auto-wounds at AP1, plus another ~50 S6 AP1 hits, I think?
You have to use the strategem at the start of your movement phase, and deep strikers don’t come on the board until your reinforcements step, at the end of the movement phase.
Okay, not to be 'that guy', but I am curious how it would actually work, since the strat does specify "One Orks Infantry unit from your army", not that that unit needs to be on the battlefield. I honestly think that they will be doing it in the way you just described as it seems a lil cheesy otherwise, but just from reading it that is the impression I got.
> but it does mean a 7” charge on a unit that you Da Jump. And Da Jump now goes off on a 2+.
That is a nice interaction plus you can then CP reroll that if needed.
> I want to see what units Ghaz can lead. MANz are okay, but can he lead a squad of Kans?
Absolutely no way he's leading Kanz. I'd assume MANz and Nobz only.
> Can we take Makari separately again?
I highly doubt it. It seems Ghaz is now a two model HQ unit.
I feel like this is the least exciting one for me. We’re still shackled with the waaagh only lasting a short burst, while every other army gets an army wide ability they can choose from. Getting the Goff ability is nice, and it’s awesome to see choppas get some love but beast snaggas are gonna be pretty terrible at what they’re supposed to be doing what with wounding all but the lightest vehicles on 6s. Don’t get me wrong, the lil SoL buffs +1m, 5+ are good but I’m feeling pretty underwhelmed.
They wound the lightest vehicles on 5s haha! T10+ on 6s unless its a waaagh turn of which its only T12+ on 6s. Even then its not great. To wound something on 6s it has to be double the weapons strength value. That means 10 Snaggas with their Boss Nob during a Waaagh do a whole 8 damage to a any vehicle/monster thats T9-11 with a 3+ save. Not amazing but its still better than most other units in the game id wager. Gives them some AT in a pinch, lets just hope their cost isnt too inflated because of that. If they stay at 10ppm ill be fine with that.
I think its the detachment like the Gladius task force for murines. It will probably be the one they get at launch and then more will show up with the codex
Yes. Eventually when the codex comes out there will be other detachments that have a different detachment ability and stratagems.
But every ork army will have the Waaagh! ability.
I'm super underwhelmed by this faction focus TBH.
Waaagh - As faction rule this was to be expected... but it's arguably been nerfed. At best its a side grade IMO. Our faction rule is now a 1 turn buff. Down from 2 turns. Think about all the other faction rules that grant bonuses all game long. Or at least something like 3 out of 5 turns it does something like combat doctrines. We get our buff for a single turn. The only positive change is that advance/charge applies to everything instead of core. But remember we seeminly lose re roll charges on everything. So... side grade ?
Get stuck in - Great. A worse Goffs clan kultur. Fully melee focused. No benefit to shooting at all. And no bonus strength on the charge. All ork armies will literally be crappier Goffs armies until the codex drops. How is this better than goffs kultur we had access to before ? I guess maybe it applies to killa kans? That's literally all I can think of.
Beast snaggas - maybe the only bright spot in the focus? Again seems primarily like they were side-graded. Maybe slightly buffed ? But depends on points honestly. Trade their 6++ for a 6+++. 5+ armor vs 6+. Extra inch move. Re roll hit instead of +1 hit vs vehicles/monsters? Still almost every vehicle or monster we have seen is T9+. Wounding it on 5s or 6s isn't really gonna matter that we reroll hits. Snagga claw got an extra attack but lost ap. Why close combat weapon listed along with choppas? Are choppas gonna cost points now as an upgrade over basic weapons ?
Ghaz - I know he's leading a unit now but... almost every stat was reduced. No pick an aura ability like other faction leaders. Less toughness and wounds. No phase cap. No strike/sweep mode on the klaw. Makari has a 1 turn aura. What aura only lasts 1 turn ? Makari seems like he's gonna be tanking for Ghaz.. feels weird. He needs to be way less points now or he's super underwhelming.
Stompa weapons - we all know it doesn't matter how strong stompa weapons are... the model has been notoriously overcosted for so long. Without points those weapon profiles are meaningless IMO. Waste of a preview as I can't get excited for the stompa without knowing points.
Squig launchas - worried that they combined the heavy squig launcha and normal one into one profile.. in which case this feels like a nerf.. New blast rule helps.. but still...unsure if this is good or not.
Never beaten - now you have to preemptively use this before knowing how much damage you've taken. Seems okay if you are pretty sure you're gonna get destroyed. 2 cp is hefty but essentially ensure your unit gets to do its thing regardless of how much damage you take is nice.. good insurance policy I guess.
Ere we go - nice except I don't think this on one unit for 1 cp infantry only makes up for for losing re roll charges everywhere. And if you don't use this on the waagh turn.. only 2 inches not 4. Not impressed at all.
What exactly am I supposed to be excited about in this faction focus? I want to be excited but what the hell am I supposed to like here ? Comparatively everything seems worse than before.
These ork rules seem super phoned in. No effort at all. No attempts to come up with anything cool. Just carry over basically the same waaagh and goffs kultur but not as good. Wtf.
I agree with a fair portion of what you said however a few things:
Beastsnaggas were always wounding the majority of vehicles on 5s this edition unless they were Goffs and charged during a Waaagh turn. The close combat weapon is for the Thump Gun (not that anyone will ever use it). In a pinch, during a Waaagh, Snaggas do around 8 damage in 10th ed to a T9-11 3+ Vehicle/Monster, thats not tooooo shabby, especially if its been softened up with some rogue AT fire. I dont think its amazing mind you, but its arguably better than what most infantry can do when the need arises. Overall they are probably tougher in the long run vs what is generally coming their way, especially vs various small arms fire. Going from a 6+ 6++ to a 5+ (possibly a 4+ in cover) and then a 6+++ is noticeably better and saves the need for a painboy (if painboyz provide some source of FNP to their attached squad).
Whilst Ghaz has taken some head scratching profile nerfs, its also safe to say hes now protected by a wound sink. Before the Phase Cap could be very easily avoided, especially with armies that could throw out MWs in multiple phases. Im all for the cap going, I wont miss it on my Abaddon. Its jarring to see Ghaz at T6 with 2 less wounds ill admit but he will be very rarely be seen without his Bullyboyz. We dont know if they can all embark in a transport with him or how (if they do) they will toughen up MANz (Im hoping for T6). Other than Precision Shots, he wont be getting targeted and even with Precision Shots his toughness still wouldnt come into effect. Roboute is T9 purely because no matter what you do, someone can always Tokyo drift up with 12" and target his ass. No Bodyguard, no 2++ invuln last line of defence. As for his melee, as standard he is roughly in the same spot if not better on a Waaagh turn. He kills a T12 2+ save 16 wound model to the exact wound, before he couldnt (T8 instead of T12 in that case). We dont know how much the change to Infantry will effect Ghaz, but atleast it rules out any Anti Monster gimmicks. Depending on points and delivery methods, I whole heartedly believe Ghaz is fine. A side grade at best. He should never be ran alone now, which fits with his whole Goff Guard Bullyboyz, he has them for a reason.
100% agree on the stompa. Couldnt care personally. I aint ever gonna use mine, I dont think it belongs in a standard game of 40k.
Squig Launchas (both have been rolled into 1 weapon) is an interesting one. They havent really changed much shot wise, probably more reliable then what you get now, with 10 shots on average vs a 5 man squad and at its uttermost lowest roll 8 shots with now a combined range of 36". Just at a cost of an AP and the heavy launcha hitting on 5s now. If they trim the fat from all its pointless weapons (as with all buggies) I think itll be fine. Will it be higher or lower than 95pts thats the question. Will it be T7/8/9, another mystery. Storm speeders went up from 6 to 9 but I bet thats more an outlier more than anything. Im comfortable guessing its T8, but with Ghaz's change I wouldnt be suprised at T7.
I agree with Ere We go and Waaagh. We are so far the only army with a one use army rule and a very veeeeery bland detachment rule. Not that I hate sustained 1 on melee, but I was hoping for something a bit more flavourful and interactive with more Orky styles of play, not just close combat.
Id put us in the same camp as Sisters of Battle in terms of our preview, we arent in the pits like DG and Admech. My only complaint is our Faction Focus didnt really showcase typically common Ork units. I would have preferred Boyz over Snaggas (it would have answered more key questions on core ranged weapons shared amongst a lot of ork units like Shootas, Big Shootas and Rokkit Launchas) and a more reasonable source of AT that isnt a Super Heavy Walker, for example a Morkanauts KMZ or Mek Gunz which is probably more in the ballpark of a Repulsor Executioner, Tyrannofex, Hammerhead and Fire Prism (to some degree).
Yeah I'd say you've sold me on beast snaggas being mostly fine. As long as they are costed correctly they seem solid. Someone else also pointed out about the thump gun and close combat weapon. So that makes sense.
I guess as far as Ghaz goes.. maybe he'll be fine as an infantry leader? I guess my bigger issue there is with the overall direction they took him. His playstyle and how he works. I would prefer he function more similarly to other faction supreme leaders like Rowboat gorilla glue. Auras, monster status, a bodyguard rule, high toughness, strike/sweep attacks profile, etc. I'm fine with the loss of a phase cap though. Instead he seems like a slightly juiced up warboss leading a unit. It doesn't really fit with his huge model/base. I liked how he worked in 9th better. This seems like they took him in another direction and downgraded him to a squad leader like Snikrot or Zagstruck. Not a fan of that decision, even if he ends up as a powerhouse squad leader. T6 doesn't feel right either with most things getting tougher as they stretch the scale. Is it fine cause he'll be shielded by mega nobz? Probably... but still.
Squigbuggy still has too many unknowns to say for sure. without points, toughness, etc. The gun seems okay though as you say.
Glad somebody sees where I'm coming from with ere we go and waagh, and the detachment rule. I was hoping for changes there. A once per battle faction rule and super generic melee only buff are not exciting, even if power level wise they are fine. And super tilted towards one style of play as our only detachment for a while kinda sucks. If I wanna play my speed freak army, many of the ork rules do not do much for me. That feels bad IMO.
Are orks going to be terrible? Probably not. But this focus was still disappointing.
I truly feel and understand everyones discontent with Ghaz, im with you and everyone else on that matter, as ive stated elsewhere I fully expected him to remain a monster, lone operative and be shunted to a T10-11 heavy weight, and im perplexed as to why he didnt stick to that design path. He has always been described as Deff Dread than an infantryman since as long as I remember so ye, real strange. BUT im not upset with how he is, im actually fine with it and I think it serves him better having that bodyguard protection! I lost Ghaz to the stupidest crap. Psychic phase MWs, Movement MWs, Shooting MWs, Charge MWs. He honestly didnt feel tough after about 3 months of his release when everything got past Phase Locks. Im actually a lot happier that he gets to arrive into melee unscathed now and krumps to the bitter end instead of being finished off to some rogue Ballistarii doing charge MWs and kicking him to the curb. Overall I agree with the direction theyve gone with him, but he is kind of like Cawl where he just doesnt match the other Supreme Commanders weve seen in that his abilities dont live up to his standard and prowess. The longer ive sat digesting it the T6 annoyance has worn off because realistically itll never come up in game until he is quite literally the last model in his unit and if thats the case I think he has bigger worries if theyve carved through his retinue and 2++ invuln tanking grot. We have seen them do the same with Abaddon though Abbie has some downright filth for his abilities that really sell the Warmaster. If Ghaz had that calibre of abilities id honestly put him up there as one of the best characters weve seen yet.
Yeah the rukkatrukk I agree with again, we just dont know how itll look defensively and its hard to guess because weve had the sheer insanity of the stormspeeder leaping to T9 and I just cant see that happening with the buggies even the heavier ones like the rukka and scrapjet. I just know that -1 damage is going and anyone thinking itll remain is kidding themselves. To begin with there just isnt that many Str 7 and below damage 2 weapons. Autocannons (other than the icarus and reaper) and Krak Grenades are now Str 9.... That leaves shuriken and heavy bolters as the next common thing at 2 damage and now shuriken cannons are wounding buggies on 5s (they will be atleast T7 SURELY). Could ramshackle stay and just change its ability? Sure, but I doubt it. Other than Universal Special Rules I dont think any unit is sharing datasheet rules (the only rule that is shared is the army rule aka Waaagh), if anything trukks will revert back to the only unit that has it.
And I feel you on that last bit, ive always primarily played shoota boyz and ranged kommandos (when they could take shootas) and when I wasnt playing Blood Axes it was my Dreadwaaagh. The armies rules arent really meshing well with those units. I dont think itll be wise advancing and charging a Morkanaut for example... it wont be able to shoot a single gun (lets be real, it aint getting assault on anything other than the KMB if that).
I did explain why he is T8 (in another comment of ours somewhere haha). Even though it feeeeeeels so wrong, its purely for gameplay balance reasons. No matter what you do, Cawl and Roboute will never get that retinue to absorb all the shots. Raising their toughness reduces the effectiveness of what is realistically going into them if they were to remain at T6 (str 6/7/8/9). Thats the sole reason why, you can bet if there were leaders and infantry they would remain T6 or even go down to 5 to match whatever unit theyd be forced to join.
I get why they wouldn't increase his toughness since they did decide to make him a leader. I'm just saying the fact his T6 feels so wrong is a reason for not going down that design path in the first place. None of that design space seems to fit Ghaz's feel. He's a huge monster model with the rules of an infantry squad leader. They aren't necessarily bad rules. They just don't fit.
He makes more sense as a big bad like robot man rather than a guy who hides behind a grot to tank hits for him.
Yeah I fully understand, I'm also like "hmmm ok...." when it comes to it, be really in actuality it doesn't mean anything. He could be toughness 2 and it still wouldn't solely because his toughness will never come into play until he is very much by himself, something if argue won't happen often at all and when it does I don't think ghaz will be long for this world! 😂 in essence just AP going down wholesale is making his retinue vastly more durable, Power/chainfists and Thunderhammers are all AP 2 with the latter even being damage 2 now. That'd a farcry from AP4 ass doctrine PFs giving MANz a colonoscopy whilst terminators were generally on a 4++ anyway with stormshields. Now we are looking a having a 4+ save vs most melee weapons or even a 3+ vs the true damage dealers. It'll take a bit of work to actually get to Ghaz (if we aren't just talking about dumping his unit full of thermal cannons).
I think that's better for Ghaz in the long run. No one wants their model getting domed without a chance, and I sure as hell wouldn't want my Ghaz to be neck snapped by some fire prism parking up within 12" and unloading a beam of light into his fungal riddled backside.
I'm all aboard how unorky it feels for him to be T6, but also it really doesn't matter. Having a retinue beats being a lone operative any day of the week. I reckon the ghaz's and abbies of the world will be a lot more prevalent than the Cawls and Roboutes. Its gonna be a nightmare dealing with Abaddon with 5-10 terminators and ill imagine it'll be just as daunting when ghaz rocks up with his bullyboyz (he's always had his Goff Guard in the lore)
Nerfs are to be expected. This whole edition is a lethality reset. You need to view everything through that.
> Waaagh - As faction rule this was to be expected... but it's arguably been nerfed. At best its a side grade IMO.
GW was using constant buffs to the Waaagh as a band-aid to keep orks playable. Hopefully other rules and datasheets make up for resetting the Waaagh to closer to the beginning of 9E.
Beast Snaggas were overall buffed or left unchanged which is a buff. Keeping -1Ap on our melee weapons was quite unexpected. Chaos SM lost -1AP on their weapons. They are better in Ld, Sv, and movement. That's all pretty massive.Going to a FnP instead of invuln means they no longer have anti-synergy with the Waaagh invuln.
Ya without points the Stompa preview is pointless. It's been unplayable for multiple editions. Even the Nauts were basically unplayable due to points.
With how low ork defense is I think Never beaten will be pretty easy to use. You use it when their big melee unit charges you.
Overall it's ok I'd say. Not seeing boyz is very disappointing imo as I really dislike beast snagga stuff.
Ghaz's new profile is a slightly better warboss but his model is a massive monster. Big disconnect there. With my friends I'm honestly likely just gonna use his old model.
Just as a correction, CSM havent lost an AP on their chainswords haha! Just to make you aware, berserkers however did (and between CSM and Zerkers there isnt much difference in overall damage dealt, we are talking 3 damage between the two units with Lethal on the CSM and Sustained 1 on the Zerkers).
~~Pretty sure the close combat weapon is what a boy armed with the thump gun gets instead of his choppa (he has to give up both slugga and choppa to take the thump gun)~~
WHoops replied to wrong comment
That's a fair point for the waaagh I guess. They did actually buff it midway through 9th as a bandaid. It didn't originally do all that. Leave more room for power elsewhere. Maybe it's preference but I still would have liked to see a faction rule that does something beyond 1 turn. Waaagh almost feels like a stratgem at this point.
Also true of the beast snaggas. My concern there would be points. And paying points for those choppas. Why is there a generic close combat profile there ? Makes me worried you'd have to pay for choppas.
Agreed on the rest.
Pretty sure the close combat weapon is what a boy armed with the thump gun gets instead of his choppa (he has to give up both slugga and choppa to take the thump gun)
Hey its fine that people disagree. But I think its unfair to say I have to be hyped about the ork rules they showed no matter what.
I'm just laying out my thoughts. Orks could still be fine as an army. Points matter alot. I'm just saying this faction focus did not wow me. I think I layed out a fair case as to why. It's not just hate or doom and gloom.
I'd love for people to refute anything I said.
I agree, just because we play Orkz doesnt mean we have to pretend our rules dont matter. As fun as Orks are in the fluff and to hobby around with, our rules and how we interact on the table is a huge part of the game. I dont mind loosing, however I dont like loosing with little hope of it even being remotely even or balanced. Ive sat out of most of 9th with Orkz because they just dont feel right or enjoyable and theyve been my main army none stop since 4th. Its not all just Waaaghs and Ere we go.
Yeah exactly. I feel like if you aren't playing goffs pressure, you are missing out on a lot of power. Power orks need to compete with other armies. I wish that wasn't the case for my main army.
My 2 cents about the close combat weapon- the Beast Snagga Boy with Thump Gun doesn't have a Choppa or claw so that's probably what they'll be using, I don't think Choppas are being changed to cost points.
Hmmm... Looks like it could be pretty interestin' for Da Boyz. Especially if their points cost is right.
A few random thoughts and speculation:
* Gretchin units (Killa Kans specifically) might not be omitted from almost all the strategems and special rules, which means that they might be pretty good again!
* We'll have to see what the final unit cards look like because I think they'll end up moving some of the flavorful and unique stuff onto the cards. (Ramshackle will probably end up on the cards for example)
* If all Boyz get a boost to armor like the Beast Snagga Boyz, anti-infantry fire will be a lot less lethal for all Boyz, which will also make big mobs more effective. Generally, all the other armies' small arms have a strength 4, ap -1/0 for their basic infantry which will be less effective against Boyz. Also, it looks like other heavy anti-infantry weapons, like the assault and onslaught cannons have a lot of shots but low AP as well, which means Boyz will be able to soak those better.
* I think the 'Core Rules' changes have helped Orks a lot in subtle ways. For example, I'll bet the dakka Ork units like Lootas and Mek Gunz are likely to be "Heavy", allowing them to be BS4+ (or maybe even 3+ for gretchin units) while standing still, and the Speed Freakz units will likely get "Assault" weapons again allowing them to be shooty and fast.
* We already knew that Meks can increase the BS of a vehicle's weapons (and the Boyz inside) by 1 as well, making Dread Mobz more effective while they close with the enemy, as well as transports full of Boyz. These increase Ork vehicle effectiveness by a lot.
* Boards are a lot smaller than they were too, so if Orks are now a little faster, they'll be able to close the distance with other armies and likely get a turn 1 or 2 charge if the enemy isn't hiding in the back of their deployment zone.
I think the Ladz will be alright as long as they are priced competitively (in points) because they'll be able to drown their opponent with dice.
I dont think ramshackle will remain as it is, we havent seen a single -1 damage. Not on a dread, not on a carnifex. Its not even a universal special rule. Wouldnt surprise me if its gone for good like Mob Rule, Dakka weapons and Ere We Go (even if it still exists as a strat).
Gretchin wont have the BS restriction anymore, they even state killkans can use Orks is Never Beaten.
I dont think Heavy will be that wide spread, if anything itll only be Deffguns and Smashaguns. Same with assault weapons, most of our shoota weapons are most likely rapid fire.
That's possible. I don't know if ramshackle will make it to as many vehicles again, but I would be pretty surprised if Trukks didn't have anything like it, or some other unique rule.
I believe Trukks have had a rule like that in every codex since 3rd.
Trukks will most likely be the only unit again that has ramshackle like it was in the past and in older editions it was just a 6+++ FNP and even further back just a funky way of the vehicle getting destroyed. Other than Universal Special Rules and Army Rules, I dont think any unit is gonna share datasheet abilities, everything is looking to have its own unique rule (even if it could be a USR like all the types of sticky objective and reroll to hit rules).
Yeah, they might not give them any keyword and leave it at that as well. Buggies and bikes used to have "Assault" weapons until 9th, when they replaced a lot of stuff with "Dakka" weapons.
True, but heavy used to be a liability and now it's a buff. Afaik there's no no downside to the Heavy keyword anymore. They may also end up being "Rapid Fire 1" with two base shots to recreate "Dakka 2/3", based on Ghaz's gun's stats as well.
I'm pretty sure they're keeping the maximum bonus/minus as +1/-1 for BS and WS modifiers, with extra bonuses past+1 just cancelling out any -1 modifiers. So they'd only be BS 4+ max.
We'll just have to see what they end up doing, but I'm relatively optimistic.
They'll simply make stuff like lootas or tankbustas BS 6 with the heavy keyword. Tau and votann had the heavy weapons on their infantry models changed to BS5 so it's not unheard of.
They start by talking up the flexibility of Orks and then they double down on all things melee for the army because apparently Orks aren't interested in dakka anymore? Ghaz also loses his four wounds per phase ability and becomes weaker than the superhero characters for many other factions. Right, then.
Good thing the actual codex doesn't come out until next year, it'll give them a chance to fix this. There's some good in here, no doubt, but there's also some awful.
That can be said for literally every faction preview. Also changes that don’t mirror the last rule set are not inherently awful. I think it is foolish to get upset at the preview because it is just the tip of the iceberg.
Leaders can't be assigned wounds until their bodyguard unit is dead. So that 2++ won't come into play until late in the game or if the bodyguard unit get's nuked. Precision also does get around it.
It sounds, though, like the rules out of the box are intended to level-set all factions in the new metagame so that everyone is starting from a relatively balanced place to begin with. They're "basic" rules which will be fleshed-out in codexes later. Really GW had to do it that way if they are to dramatically alter the game, otherwise you'd have some factions operating off their old codexes that are out of whack with the new metagame.
For what it's worth releasing basic rules for all factions is how GW used to do it early on; 2nd edition, for instance, had an included book with basic stats and rules for every unit in every faction.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them. You might get a couple of detachments, but that would be the extent of it.
They are getting rid of defined subfactions. However you will get detachments that have rules that allow you to play how old factions worked. Our index detachment is goffs. The Sister's index detachment is OOM, etc.
I don’t think they’re getting rid of subfactions exactly - GW is just uncoupling how you paint your models from how they play. The detachment rules will likely have a bunch of versions, likely a speed freek one, a shooty one, a tough one, a hard-hittin’ one, a “lucky” one, etc.
They said that marines are getting their First Company one, which is like the Deathwing for Dark Angels, so I suspect we will still have most of the subfactions in some form.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them. You might get a couple of detachments, but that would be the extent of it.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them
I think missing the extra detachments is going to force (almost) every faction into one niche. CSM, WE, and Custodes’ faction abilities seems to have gotten along fairly well given the flexibility of them, but most other faction+detachment abilities are “do your one thing slightly better.”
I agree. Waiting half a year to be truly flexible is a bit of a bummer. I am hopeful they will bake in some flexibility with all of these traits on datacards, but have been aware that we were going to get one detachment that was going to buff melee or dakka was going to be disappointing one way or another.
Ghaz is exactly in line with all heroes which are in his weight category like Abaadon.
No one has a wound cap now and your either hard as nails or you can join a unit as your defence.
Ghaz can join a unit so he isn't gonna be T10 with a load of wounds.
Ghaz's model is a monster. Him being reduced to T6 and infantry makes no sense. He's now barely better than a regular warboss. There likely will be no difference between him and a mega armoured warboss except potentially his invuln.
I think people are forgetting he needs to be included with Makari who has a 2++ Invulv save. If he can be included in a block of 20 boyz he's going to be very tanky.
And since he's a leader likely means at least meganobz but possibly also normal nobz are going to T6.
edit: Looking at his move I'm guessing it will only be meganobz.
I think this looks really good and the more you look into it the more subtle buffs we got like 5+ save for smagga boys plus a FNP on top.
Waaagh is technically worse but they kept the best bits.
What sold me is while everyone is getting less deadly (for the most part) we look just as deadly as before tbh. Keeping ap1 on choppas is huge.
Bring on 10th!!!!
Incorrect IMO - with what we have seen with 10th lack of AP means a 5+ with a 6+ FNP is better than a single 6++
In cover we have a 4+ save and 6+ FNP AND 5++ from Waagh for a turn too.
Yep, and if you can get 1-2 other hard hitting units flanking around Ghaz and then pop the Waagh and have Lethal hits from Makari......bad times for opponents.
Totally agree - streamlined Ork shenanigans are going to be awesome. Ghaz as a leader (and other characters) with super makari plus embarking in vehicles is going to be super fun
I feel like this was super phoned in. Sure, still playable and we will have our fun, but I did not expect to basically say that melee armies are the way to go. The waaagh is a mechanic that I don't like personally, but I guess it is being stuck with that for another edition. (I feel like that there is so much more cooler mechanical stuff that can be done with orks instead of 1 turn of mayhem and then going limp. Something that can represent the rowdyness, the endless hordes or even their willingness to go hard on a fight, but doesn't go away in 1 turn)
God forbid someone actually take something away from one of these previews. Look I know reddit is a hive mind that can't accept dissent without needing to take a mental health day, but how much stuff do you need to see before you can reasonably say "yeah this is how the faction is gonna be for a while"? I guess everything they told us today is just pissing in the wind huh? No, it's a strong indicator of the way the army's going to play, and no amount of semantic whining about incomplete information changes the trends and ideas that are likely coming in the next few months.
God forbid someone actually take something away from one of these previews. Look I know reddit is a hive mind that can't accept dissent without needing to take a mental health day, but how much stuff do you need to see before you can reasonably say "yeah this is how the faction is gonna be for a while"? I guess everything they told us today is just pissing in the wind huh? No, it's a strong indicator of the way the army's going to play, and no amount of semantic whining about incomplete information changes the trends and ideas that are likely coming in the next few months.
Oh no, I do agree we don't have the full picture to know if it is viable or not. I meant that the rules do give incentives to that play style, and not something more diverse. There will be other detachments in the future when the codex comes out, but at the moment, both rules are basically mirroring what the goffs had.
Ironically, you are doing exactly what you attempted to complain about, which is exaggerating the interpretation of a few words.
I have many armies in 40K, and have been following the previews closely. While I do agree that this preview is a snapshot of what to expect for our armies, and the indication about it being melee centric is very accurate, I'd like to point out that this will be our INDEX army.... As with every other preview, we will start 10th edition with a slice of what our army will be able to bring to bare, and the codex roll out should (hopefully) allow for greater range of options. This may only be a hope, but comparing to the other faction previews, Orks did pretty good.
> and the codex roll out should (hopefully) allow for greater range of options.
It's guaranteed we will. Detachments are replacing factions. The ork index detachment is Goffs. With the codex we will get detachments representing other aspects of ork fighting.
We 100% lost ramshackle, it's the only reason why they did not show the full Stompa card. Other than that, the usual focus on troops, with very little meat for us Mekbosses. That said, at least it seems that larger Boyz units won't be completely wiped out from morale and. Very disappointed with Ghaz, now, unless you throw him in a unit, it gets obliterated turn one...
The stompa never had ramshackle. Another reason among many it was shit.
> Very disappointed with Ghaz, now, unless you throw him in a unit, it gets obliterated turn one...
Ghaz HAS to be in a unit. He doesn't have the lone operator ability. He has the Leader one. Leaders can not start the game as a solo unit.
I agree that Ghaz's is disappointing. He could be amazing but thematically I really don't like it. T6 and infantry yet hes larger than Roboute whos T9 and a monster. Why not just give him the same rule as Roboute where he gets protection if within 3" or just embrace his monster potential and give him a matching toughness and wound count.
His current profile will likely be identical to a mega armoured warboss with maybe a better invuln.
Actually there is a big bonus for Mek bosses in that Kans and Dreads fully participate in the Waaagh (neither were core before) and both get detachment bonuses (Kans didn't). That's actually pretty great.
Edit: Also waaagh! no longer requires a warboss or speedboss so a Mek as your general is fair game again.
His profile really doesn't match his model though. His new profile matches his old model so much better. He's likely going to be identical to a mega armoured warboss.
I hope so. I admit that I have yet to purchase him, since I very rarely play and Ghaz is not exactly part of my army (see tag).
That said, I am purposefully pessimistic, mainly because I hope to be pleasantly surprised when the full rules go live. Especially being also in the Death Guard subreddit, I think we were not hit too hard, but there is still too much to see before being certain.
> everyone gets the goffs klan trait, but better, all the time, for free.
No. You get the Goff trait if you use the Goff detachment. Currently that is the only detachment we have but when we get our codex you can swap out the Goff detachment for another one. You will use sustained hits 1 for something else like Assault on all guns or something for Speed Freaks.
How is it better? If you played goffs before you had the same rule all the time for free but with an extra strength on the charge. This rule isn't on top of another rule or clan trait. It's essentially just replacing the goffs clan trait you had before without the strength buff.
Well I didnt play goffs, so it seems nice to me.
Fair point about losing the strength, but you are also getting guaranteed hits, not just extra swings.
But that brings up a good question - are individual klans still getting bonuses? Have other armies gotten tweaks for chapters/warbands/craft worlds et.
No. These detachments rules are essentially replacing clan traits. And until the ork codex comes out.. this is the only detachment we have.
The goffs trait was additional hits.. not swings. It's the same.
It seems like hordes of snagga boyz will be handy for protecting heroes, and battleshock won't end up wiping out a horde anymore. Losing models to combat tests was horrid. Extra attacks on rolls of 6 will make this fun.
Hard meh on my part. Nothing terrible, but it would be nice if we could already know if Shoota boyz are viable this time or if they're relegated to never being used (again).
I'd also like to know why Ghaz, a towering ork monstrosity wearing the best plate an Ork can probably get outside of wearing a Stompa has T6 while a piddly little custodes in terminator armor has T7.
He was T7 in 9th no ? He actually lost a pip of toughness in an edition where they are stretching toughness and increasing the strength of a lot of weapons. Las cannons actually wound him on 2s now.
I see this as a nerf to ghaz. No wound cap (fine and expected). But losing toughness, wounds, ap, movement, and not going up in strength at all...
The only boon really is the +1 to hit and wound rolls for him and his unit. And Makari got nerfed to a 1 turn banner aura. I guess he's tanking wounds for ghaz now ? Which is weird.
Disappointing. I was hoping for guilliman levels of abilities. He costs the same points as of now... so unless Ghaz gets cheaper.. disappointing
And it's kind of weird that other factions get primarchs and equivalents (hell, *Cawl* is T8) and then the Orks' biggest warboss is basically a normal Warboss in terms of durability (assuming that Warbosses are tougher than regular boyz).
Its worth noting Cawl cannot join units, like at all. Whilst it feels rightly pathetic that Ghaz is only T6, it is clear to see why. Cawl and Roboute can never have the protection that Ghaz and Abaddon have, and thats being nestled in a brick of terminators and meganobz. Whilst the likes of Ghaz and Abbie's unit can be targeted from the get go, its still going to take a considerable amount of effort to crack through all that sheer woundage. For Cawl and Roboute someone just has to walk/drive/sliver up to 12" and unload a mag into them. Thats why their respective toughness is so much higher. A Repulsor Executioner can mosey on up and dumpster either character, that isnt possible in the regards to Ghaz. If Cawl and Roboute were still T6, that opens up a hell of lot more weapons that will feasibly kill them, either in the 12" sweet spot or in melee. Thats literally it, pure and simple.
I fully understand that it feels so unorky, I was expecting Ghaz to remain a monster and be T10-11 with Lone Operative, but instead we got him as a leader who is infantry.
Honestly expected much the same. I don't really care for special characters in general (deviates from the 'your dudes' aesthetic), but the fact that Ghaz isn't anywhere near the level of other similar things seems like an ill omen.
Not helping matters is that GW seems to have it in for every faction I play, always fucking *something* up.
Primarchs look to have received a big buff, to be at a power level above the other faction's main leaders. Lore wise that's right; Ghaz is nowhere near RG, he's more at the level of Primaris Ragnar Blackmane.
Abaddon is maybe a better comparison, and he also lost a point of movement and a point of toughness (both now 5).
>Lore wise that's right; Ghaz is nowhere near RG, he's more at the level of Primaris Ragnar Blackmane.
Gonna have to call you out on that one. Ghaz got decapitated by Ragnar *before* either got their upgrades, and the fight ended in what was essentially a mutual kill.
Now, however, Ghaz got his head sewed onto whatever Frankensteinian super-ork body Grotsnik had been cooking up. That plus the warp procedure (especially given the greater effect of the warp on realspace nowadays – cicatrix maledictum and all that, Ork belief causing changes in reality still being somewhat of a thing) that resurrected him would probably have propelled Ghaz quite a bit higher on the dangerous thing totem pole than before. We don't know *how* big of a deal Ghaz is now because GW refuses to write lore for factions that aren't the Imperium or Abby.
I think the big difference for game-play purposes, is that Gulliman isn't a leader, while Ghaz is, so he got the same treatment as Abaddon. Chances are high Ghaz will last the game, but not a primarch :)
Yes that is why. The question is why make him a leader? Roboute stayed a monster and went to T9. Ghaz lost being a monster and went to T6. Look at Ghaz's model next to Roboute's. Who actually looks like a monster.
Now Ghaz and a regular mega armoured warboss are going to have nearly or identical stats and the only difference is rules. It looks so stupid.
I'm honestly just going to use Ghaz's old model as that one makes sense with these piddly stats.
I disagree, I feel like this is more of that simplified but not simple that we’ve seen. I am excited for the most part except… why doesn’t Ghaz get sweep!
At least he can go in a unit now to mitigate just getting mobbed by chaff.
Best change overall for me is the leadership test and management in the game, meaning I'm no longer punished for running a large boyz squad :)
True, actually makes it better to run big squads as it takes longer to reach half-strength
This preview has got me very excited to see more! It's nice to see that unique units like Ghaz aren't locked to a single tribe, which grants us flexibility on what characters we want to use. It's also nice to see how the WAAAAGH!! just works on EVERY model, rather than having to micromanage who gets what benefit. I'm very curious to see how they accommodate for different Ork playstyles. I like the idea of them making a tribe specifically for dread mobs.
... if you are comparing this data to 9th edition data. Then yes we lost.... but this isn't 9th edition. You won't be facing 9th edition armies. 9th edition strats, and rules will not apply. For all we know, this is the best thing an ork army needs in 10th edition. Comparing apples to oranges will only lead to disappointment. The rules are designed for a completely different game, so who's to say they are weaker? Or stronger? Nothing is a nerf when the game is redesigned from the ground up. There are many, many posts on here complaining, but little reflection on 10th edition rules. It's like complaining that in 5th edition orks did such and such, and that's gone now, and somehow that makes them bad? Start getting good at the game, and look at the 10th edition rules we have, and ignore 9th. 9th is dead, and irrelevant to how good this army will be in 10th.
I’m happy about the ‘Get Stuck In’, since I’m rounding out a choppa/big choppa unit of Nobz, and moving to get a unit of choppa/choppa Boyz together. Nice and stabby. I di have a question though - and please forgive my ignorance, I’ve not played in the last 15-ish years: 10th Ed. is the codex? Or the overall rules for the game? Am I replacing the rule book I got with my Space Marine/Necron box _and_ my Ork Codex? Or just the codex? Or is this new stuff errata? Apologies for my living under a rock this past decade-and-then-some.
Yes both :) Global reset on the way!
You know what I really wanted from this edition? Allowing my 4000pts collection to be usable without having to buy 2/3 of that in newer stuff to be competitive. Now, again, it’s beast snagga boyz, buy 60 of ‘em because you might as well not even try to run standard boyz
Except we haven't even seen Boyz yet, so what's the point being fatalistic about it? Besides, if they're really that unplayable, just run your Choppa Boyz as Snaggas. "Yeah, my Snaggas all wear pants over their monster bones."
Mispelled "Monster bonerz" !
Really hoping support like Painboyz and KFF Meks get better this ed.
They probably will because in theory they would join units the way that the liutenant does. So they can't be left behind by a charge and then sniped off the board
Well...looks like I'll be buying some Meganobz if I want to run Ghaz. I sure hope we get something proper scary and killy cause so far I feel pretty meh.
Are there still going to be specific rules for subfactions like Goffs and Evil Sunz?
They are separating rules from paint scheme. The WAAAGH! Tribe detachment is the Goffs subfaction rules in all but name.
Not in this initial 10th edition launch index (as far as we know), unknown for when our codex launches. My personal belief is they will have detachments in codex that reflect the current clan descriptions, but not force people to adopt a single clan to use those, and instead allow the clan flavor to be more in how want your force portrayed.
Yep. So instead of Goffs, Evil Sunz, & Bad Moonz, you'll get options like Waagh! Tribe, Speed Kult, & Tek Mob detatchments from the Codex.
They've explicitly stated this, so I'd say your personal belief is pretty accurate. lol.
Don't see no Goffs keyword on Thraka, so doesn't look like it.
Personal thoughts: * The lack of a speedwaaagh is very disappointing. Melee only buff means our non-flamer (aka just one) vehicles continue to suck. * 'ere we go becoming a stratagem isn't that bad. If we can get some sort of way to regenerate CPs Orks will feel pretty good. * Beastsnaggas getting 5+ save is pretty nice. * Ghaz' stats drop isn't that bad considering you can run him in a unit. But I'd like to see what units we can run him in. Just Meganobz? * Squigbuggy lost its entire arsenal! A bit harsh, don't you think? * Stompa's weapon changes are nice. But what about the rest of its stats and cost?
Speedwaaagh is undoubtedly going to be tied to a Detachment. Everyone knew that was going to be the case going in if they've paid attention to what GW has said so far about Detachments/subfactions. Be patient; we're one of the first wave Codex releases, you'll get your Speedwaaagh.
So long as we get it I don't care how long we have to wait. Orks are choppy AND shooty!
You know they aren't showing full cards for vehicles just some weapons right?
[удалено]
>squigbuggy's arsenal is its variety of munitions for the one weapon Not in 9th edition? It's literally just a indirect fire blast weapon, no multiple munitions.
Do you think the Squigbuggy lost its close combat weapons?
Why would they show only one type of the squigbuggy's ranged ammo.
If you look at the Imperial Knights and Tau previews they only show specific weapons in the same way. If it only had one weapon why not show the whole datasheet like the Beast Snaggas and Gahz?
I swear if Ghaz can be in a unit of (regular) Nobz, this is the perfect reveal for me.
On the whole it's looking good. That said, I'm a little disappointed that the detachment was the Goffs one. I was hoping for some form of 'ere we go instead. Failing charges sucks. And yeah, we got a strategem for it. But CP is precious and it's also locked to a detachment. I really hope Ghaz isn't limited to leading Meganobs Surprised we kept the AP on the choppas. Also surprised we kept the Waaaugh as is (at least the first turn). Overall I'm pretty satsified
6" movement and 5+ save 🤤
And a 6+ Feel no pain 🤤
No more 6+ invuln though
makes sense honestly. no way a few scars should be able to shrug off a Volcano Cannon on a 6
Ghaz is no longer a monster. Does this mean we will likely be able to use him in Boarding Actions games?
Can ghaz lead a squad of regular boyz?
In the article they said : " and as the Prophet of Da Great Waaagh!, his bodyguard of [Meganobz](https://www.games-workshop.com/Meganobz) gets even choppier." So it will be Meganobz i think !
most likely not. They seem to be limiting them to units with same relative toughness, so I would expect Meganobz, maybe nobz,
Ere we go!
Everyone got nerfed but our nerf is so incredibly slight that I'm very excited to use my boys again. It's going to play a bit different but da jump into a 7" charge is exactly my kind of language.
'Ere we go is probably one of the things nerfed hardest which is unfortunate for da jump charges or any charges really. I'm not too bothered by it but I predict us ork players are going to miss a lot more charges we used to make. We'll have to adapt.
Well in saying that, the strat is a more consistent in on one unit, big blobs also seem to be a viable thing with the current direction. Less hailmarys though
There's definitely going to be less of a wave of bodies all hitting at the same time, which was very satisfying in 9th
I've never really been very fussed about Ghaz before but he looks absolutely incredible now. If he leads a big MANz bomb he'll be brutal.
As a Badmoons player I am disappointed in most of this due to the lack of effects on shooting. But other than the major nerf to Ghaz and Whaagh I feel this is good for melee armies.
It was pointed out to me that ghaz is nerfed by 9th edition but with 10th he gets to use makari and meganobz as shields to help deliver him into combat. Makari alone can sluff off a load of shots with his 2++ save so that makes it less a nerf for melee. I agree with the shooting though. I wanna see what bikes and buggies do as well as how much points run before I get too excited.
Hopefully there'll be a detachment rule for you shooty orks out there :D
At least they got rid of dakka weapons.
Yes and no, Ghaz' weapon still has subpar rapid fire.
I am still not sure how a gun that big is only str5 without AP.
Mork's roar? More like Mork's whimper
Well see more if that when we see the subfactions i think
Looks awesome. Waaagh is relatively unchanged, all be it slightly nerfed (but nerf feels in line with what most armies got to their main ability), Beast Snaggas still unfortunately look like just better Boyz but I'm hoping either Boyz demonstrate way more worth in the index or Beastsnaggas get a big point jump more than them. Seems like we're becoming a faster army though which as a Death Guard player sounds really fun. Don't really care about any of the Stompa stuff but the Weirdknob looks like exactly what I've wanted out of Orks for a while and if that's the design paradigm model for most of our stuff then I think we're gonna be just fine. Also, on a smaller note, as a Death Guard player the 6+ FNP here makes me feel that the whole "Nurgle keyword granting a 5+ FNP" rumor might actually have some ground to it, seeing as at this point these saves are so wide-spread it'd feel downright bizarre for it not to be a universal nurgle thing. I do think the units they decided to show off are weird, regular Boyz seemed like a more obvious pick, regardless though at this point we're like 2 weeks off of the release of 10th so we won't be waiting long on that stuff. All in all, as someone who felt like they got gutted in the last Faction Preview one of my armies got, this looks just fine. Maybe not the most exciting but it's still enough to basically lock me in for playing Orks as my main for 10th.
The units they shown off were definitely odd for sure, I couldnt care at all about the stompa, it could be the dogs bollocks and I still wont be using mine, some thing should only exist in apocalypse. I wish they showed off standard Boyz over Snaggas, not that I dislike them (I have 80) but itd answer a lot more questions for us like common cross platform weapon profiles for Shootas, Big Shootas, Rokkit Launchas, Big Choppas and Power Klaws. Im very much on the fence with Ghaz, I get why hes just toughness 6 but it feels weird that he is so far below Roboute who is T9. Makes you question if Meganobz will get a toughness boost to 6 like how terminators got boosted to 5. Im curious what theyll do for Meganobz to make them standout from their imperial cousins other than being cheaper and more flimsy (unless they give them an invuln stock). He is very much like Abaddon where he has a huge wound sink with his unit it just rubs me the wrong way. I still wish he got a sweep profile, other than Makari if feels hes rather lacking compared to the other Supreme Commanders weve seen, so hopefully he is a lot more cheaper than them, and they go up above 400pts. Not too impressed with Waaagh, out of all the factions we are the ones with a one turn gimmick and a gimmick that will be telegraphed if you are going second. Waaaghs build up until they reach fever point and boil over, should really have been a simplified version of Big Waaagh from AoS. Profile wise: Power Snappa dropping an AP is sad. Was to be expected with 10th but I dont really see how Snaggas are fighting Vehicles and monsters at all when they wound the vast majority of them on 6s (T10+). Rerolling to hit and AP 1 isnt gonna help. Thump Gun is even more useless. Lost an AP. I though maybe itd mirror the Imperial Guard Grenade Launcher to some degree which got a huge glow up from its old profile its had since the beginning of time (now str 9 ap 2 from str 6 ap 1). Squig Launcha took a side grade. They merged to 2 guns, keeping the longer range of 36" with a kinda similar shot count, 3d6 to d6+6, but then lost BS4 for the heavy and lost and AP down to 1. Hopefully its cheaper than 95pts to compensate. Ghaz also had a side grade of sorts. No longer degrades and has 6 attacks base instead of 5, but cant get to 7 attacks base but his strength isnt paying the cost for it. He lost an AP and rerolls to hit but now gives his unit (including himself) +1 to hit and wound which is actually really good. He just barely kills a Land Raider by himself. Abaddon and Roboute cant do that. Stompa ill ignore. Im not tapping out from Orkz, I think they will be fine but it will definitely shake up our mindset a bit! We dont have the cushion of reroll charges to fall back on and Waaagh feels even more crucial to time right and do as much as you can.
Listen, I’ve been telling people to sit down and shut up about their stuff being ‘nerfed’ because we already know the power scale is changing. But Ghaz is just so much worse, and him and Makari sharing a toughness makes absolutely no sense. He’s like a primarch for us and not only did his toughness go down in the edition that the big guys toughness went up, he also lost wounds. The wound cap I’m not sad about at all cause we knew we’d lose that and it’s a really dumb ability for us anyway. He’s basically just a glorified Megaboss now. He didn’t get more interesting, he didn’t get tankier, and now Makari is baked in so his points probably won’t decrease drastically. He’s my favourite character in the game period and seeing him not only miss out on the tankiness buff but actively get squishier is really disappointing.
I dont think Ghaz is so much worse, more a sidegrade if anything, Whilst his toughess is weird, it makes sense due to the fact hes buried in a squad of MANz whilst also have Makari as his last line of defence. I wont lie I was also taken back with him having less toughness than Roboute but its also key to remember Ghaz is no way near the same ball park of any Primarch and hopefully his cost reflects that. Primarchs shouldnt be sub 400-500pts, Ghaz can sit happy in the high 200s and low 300s. Changing him to infantry was a suprise but welcome change, not that anything interacts with infantry that I know of other than combi weapons and we havent really seen anti-monster stuff other than the Thundercoil Harpoon. His melee is roughly the same, he doesnt degrade (like anything anymore) and has a nice even 6 attacks, 7 during a Waaagh whilst also having +1 to hit and wound whilst hes in his unit at the cost of 1 AP. Pair it with lethal hits odds are hes killing a Land Raider by the decimal point. What will be interesting is if he can actually fit in a Battlewagon with MANZ, he cant be taking up 18 slots anymore (though with his size he should haha).
Your missing a big part I think. Mākari is a part of the squad too. And he has a +2 invulnerable. MEANING, once the squad is dead, Makari has to fail a save before ghaz even takes a wound. That’s huge! Here come a shot from a thundercoil harpoon for 12 dmg? 2 up. Good. And he lost monster key word. So he can be in a squad of manz, in a vehicle, with a 2+ invuln? Dude, Ghaz is still awesome!!
Makari has 1w tho... even with his higher toughness with anti infantry being a thing bolters statically a squad of bolter marines will remove the invuln save all he has to do is fail one save (20 shit with anti infantry 4+ hitting in 3s is 12 hits, 6ws 17% fail chance says he's fails one and dies) Sure the 2+ is awesome but it's really looks alot better on paper than it will be on the field I field. Once Makari is down ghazzy will get shredded is the feeling I'm getting from the data sheets so far And let's keep in mind Abby and guilleman give their boyz re rolls so marines/csm will have an easier time dealing with ghaz as well..
I’m thoroughly underwhelmed by Ghaz’s inability to stand on his own though. He’s stands around the same height as a primarch and yet he’s only 1T higher than Boyz… I like that he can lead a unit but I really don’t like that he’s being carried defence-wise by Makari.
Abaddon is also in the same boat, its important to note that neither is getting sniped as soon as you waddle something within 12" unlike Roboute, and as I said above it feels jarring and unorky for the Big Boss to be T6 but it really doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things when he will always be in a squad. In the lore he has his Goff Guard Bully Boyz that are always with him, yet in all of 9th he just up and left them on Armaggedon like a chump. He is still a one man wrecking crew, which I stated prior he still flips a T12 2+ save 16 wound unit on the exact wound where as before he wouldnt. Ultimately it comes down to points, what MANz are like and the delivery system. We have no clue if you can fit Ghaz and 5 MANZ in a Battlewagon. We dont know if Tellyporta is even around (100% isnt seeing as we dont have CP until the game begins).
Yeah man everybody pointing out that he can be attached to a group of meganobz is missing the point. Our big monster one man wrecking crew is now just a guy who needs a bunch of cronies.
Orks togeva... strong.
Yeah but to me this plays more like the comic relief faction. Big boss hides behind little grot with 2++ instead of just having a stat line to fit the models. I don’t hate it as much as I initially did but it’s still hard too take seriously.
Exactly this!
Orks have gotten faster. That ‘Ere We Go strat can’t be used on deep strikers, but it **does** mean a 7” charge on a unit that you Da Jump. And Da Jump now goes off on a 2+. Waaagh giving **everyone** advance and charge is big news for Deff Dreads, plus some corner cases like my Shokkjump Dragstas. We will be in anybody’s face T1 if we want to. And that’s on top of the new disembark rules, Meks that buff shooting out of transports, and the possibility of Assault Ramp on any of our vehicles. Other scattered thoughts: I want to see what units Ghaz can lead. MANz are okay, but can he lead a squad of Kans? Can we take Makari separately again? Because a Lethal Hits aura combined with Beast Snaggas innate re-roll agains monsters and vehicles means a big mob can put a **lot** of hurt on even very tough targets. Like ~25 auto-wounds at AP1, plus another ~50 S6 AP1 hits, I think?
Why can't it be used on deep strikers?
You have to use the strategem at the start of your movement phase, and deep strikers don’t come on the board until your reinforcements step, at the end of the movement phase.
Okay, not to be 'that guy', but I am curious how it would actually work, since the strat does specify "One Orks Infantry unit from your army", not that that unit needs to be on the battlefield. I honestly think that they will be doing it in the way you just described as it seems a lil cheesy otherwise, but just from reading it that is the impression I got.
I’m just assuming that will be a restriction, like units in transports.
> but it does mean a 7” charge on a unit that you Da Jump. And Da Jump now goes off on a 2+. That is a nice interaction plus you can then CP reroll that if needed. > I want to see what units Ghaz can lead. MANz are okay, but can he lead a squad of Kans? Absolutely no way he's leading Kanz. I'd assume MANz and Nobz only. > Can we take Makari separately again? I highly doubt it. It seems Ghaz is now a two model HQ unit.
I feel like this is the least exciting one for me. We’re still shackled with the waaagh only lasting a short burst, while every other army gets an army wide ability they can choose from. Getting the Goff ability is nice, and it’s awesome to see choppas get some love but beast snaggas are gonna be pretty terrible at what they’re supposed to be doing what with wounding all but the lightest vehicles on 6s. Don’t get me wrong, the lil SoL buffs +1m, 5+ are good but I’m feeling pretty underwhelmed.
They wound the lightest vehicles on 5s haha! T10+ on 6s unless its a waaagh turn of which its only T12+ on 6s. Even then its not great. To wound something on 6s it has to be double the weapons strength value. That means 10 Snaggas with their Boss Nob during a Waaagh do a whole 8 damage to a any vehicle/monster thats T9-11 with a 3+ save. Not amazing but its still better than most other units in the game id wager. Gives them some AT in a pinch, lets just hope their cost isnt too inflated because of that. If they stay at 10ppm ill be fine with that.
Give them tank hammers
They can't have tank hammers 🤣 that's tankbusta territory.
I just want more tank hammers. They’re my favorite T.T
This looks infinitely better than my poor votann.
I feel kinda like no one got a good spotlight if they play the army. But from outside I think your army looked pretty cool.
For me the only disappointing part is how random the data sheets chosen seem to be, a bit like tau. Give us regular boyz stats you cowards!
Huh. Why are things denoted “waaagh! Tribe”? Does this mean that those abilities aren’t part of other ork tribes?
I think its the detachment like the Gladius task force for murines. It will probably be the one they get at launch and then more will show up with the codex
Yes. Eventually when the codex comes out there will be other detachments that have a different detachment ability and stratagems. But every ork army will have the Waaagh! ability.
I'm super underwhelmed by this faction focus TBH. Waaagh - As faction rule this was to be expected... but it's arguably been nerfed. At best its a side grade IMO. Our faction rule is now a 1 turn buff. Down from 2 turns. Think about all the other faction rules that grant bonuses all game long. Or at least something like 3 out of 5 turns it does something like combat doctrines. We get our buff for a single turn. The only positive change is that advance/charge applies to everything instead of core. But remember we seeminly lose re roll charges on everything. So... side grade ? Get stuck in - Great. A worse Goffs clan kultur. Fully melee focused. No benefit to shooting at all. And no bonus strength on the charge. All ork armies will literally be crappier Goffs armies until the codex drops. How is this better than goffs kultur we had access to before ? I guess maybe it applies to killa kans? That's literally all I can think of. Beast snaggas - maybe the only bright spot in the focus? Again seems primarily like they were side-graded. Maybe slightly buffed ? But depends on points honestly. Trade their 6++ for a 6+++. 5+ armor vs 6+. Extra inch move. Re roll hit instead of +1 hit vs vehicles/monsters? Still almost every vehicle or monster we have seen is T9+. Wounding it on 5s or 6s isn't really gonna matter that we reroll hits. Snagga claw got an extra attack but lost ap. Why close combat weapon listed along with choppas? Are choppas gonna cost points now as an upgrade over basic weapons ? Ghaz - I know he's leading a unit now but... almost every stat was reduced. No pick an aura ability like other faction leaders. Less toughness and wounds. No phase cap. No strike/sweep mode on the klaw. Makari has a 1 turn aura. What aura only lasts 1 turn ? Makari seems like he's gonna be tanking for Ghaz.. feels weird. He needs to be way less points now or he's super underwhelming. Stompa weapons - we all know it doesn't matter how strong stompa weapons are... the model has been notoriously overcosted for so long. Without points those weapon profiles are meaningless IMO. Waste of a preview as I can't get excited for the stompa without knowing points. Squig launchas - worried that they combined the heavy squig launcha and normal one into one profile.. in which case this feels like a nerf.. New blast rule helps.. but still...unsure if this is good or not. Never beaten - now you have to preemptively use this before knowing how much damage you've taken. Seems okay if you are pretty sure you're gonna get destroyed. 2 cp is hefty but essentially ensure your unit gets to do its thing regardless of how much damage you take is nice.. good insurance policy I guess. Ere we go - nice except I don't think this on one unit for 1 cp infantry only makes up for for losing re roll charges everywhere. And if you don't use this on the waagh turn.. only 2 inches not 4. Not impressed at all. What exactly am I supposed to be excited about in this faction focus? I want to be excited but what the hell am I supposed to like here ? Comparatively everything seems worse than before. These ork rules seem super phoned in. No effort at all. No attempts to come up with anything cool. Just carry over basically the same waaagh and goffs kultur but not as good. Wtf.
I agree with a fair portion of what you said however a few things: Beastsnaggas were always wounding the majority of vehicles on 5s this edition unless they were Goffs and charged during a Waaagh turn. The close combat weapon is for the Thump Gun (not that anyone will ever use it). In a pinch, during a Waaagh, Snaggas do around 8 damage in 10th ed to a T9-11 3+ Vehicle/Monster, thats not tooooo shabby, especially if its been softened up with some rogue AT fire. I dont think its amazing mind you, but its arguably better than what most infantry can do when the need arises. Overall they are probably tougher in the long run vs what is generally coming their way, especially vs various small arms fire. Going from a 6+ 6++ to a 5+ (possibly a 4+ in cover) and then a 6+++ is noticeably better and saves the need for a painboy (if painboyz provide some source of FNP to their attached squad). Whilst Ghaz has taken some head scratching profile nerfs, its also safe to say hes now protected by a wound sink. Before the Phase Cap could be very easily avoided, especially with armies that could throw out MWs in multiple phases. Im all for the cap going, I wont miss it on my Abaddon. Its jarring to see Ghaz at T6 with 2 less wounds ill admit but he will be very rarely be seen without his Bullyboyz. We dont know if they can all embark in a transport with him or how (if they do) they will toughen up MANz (Im hoping for T6). Other than Precision Shots, he wont be getting targeted and even with Precision Shots his toughness still wouldnt come into effect. Roboute is T9 purely because no matter what you do, someone can always Tokyo drift up with 12" and target his ass. No Bodyguard, no 2++ invuln last line of defence. As for his melee, as standard he is roughly in the same spot if not better on a Waaagh turn. He kills a T12 2+ save 16 wound model to the exact wound, before he couldnt (T8 instead of T12 in that case). We dont know how much the change to Infantry will effect Ghaz, but atleast it rules out any Anti Monster gimmicks. Depending on points and delivery methods, I whole heartedly believe Ghaz is fine. A side grade at best. He should never be ran alone now, which fits with his whole Goff Guard Bullyboyz, he has them for a reason. 100% agree on the stompa. Couldnt care personally. I aint ever gonna use mine, I dont think it belongs in a standard game of 40k. Squig Launchas (both have been rolled into 1 weapon) is an interesting one. They havent really changed much shot wise, probably more reliable then what you get now, with 10 shots on average vs a 5 man squad and at its uttermost lowest roll 8 shots with now a combined range of 36". Just at a cost of an AP and the heavy launcha hitting on 5s now. If they trim the fat from all its pointless weapons (as with all buggies) I think itll be fine. Will it be higher or lower than 95pts thats the question. Will it be T7/8/9, another mystery. Storm speeders went up from 6 to 9 but I bet thats more an outlier more than anything. Im comfortable guessing its T8, but with Ghaz's change I wouldnt be suprised at T7. I agree with Ere We go and Waaagh. We are so far the only army with a one use army rule and a very veeeeery bland detachment rule. Not that I hate sustained 1 on melee, but I was hoping for something a bit more flavourful and interactive with more Orky styles of play, not just close combat. Id put us in the same camp as Sisters of Battle in terms of our preview, we arent in the pits like DG and Admech. My only complaint is our Faction Focus didnt really showcase typically common Ork units. I would have preferred Boyz over Snaggas (it would have answered more key questions on core ranged weapons shared amongst a lot of ork units like Shootas, Big Shootas and Rokkit Launchas) and a more reasonable source of AT that isnt a Super Heavy Walker, for example a Morkanauts KMZ or Mek Gunz which is probably more in the ballpark of a Repulsor Executioner, Tyrannofex, Hammerhead and Fire Prism (to some degree).
Yeah I'd say you've sold me on beast snaggas being mostly fine. As long as they are costed correctly they seem solid. Someone else also pointed out about the thump gun and close combat weapon. So that makes sense. I guess as far as Ghaz goes.. maybe he'll be fine as an infantry leader? I guess my bigger issue there is with the overall direction they took him. His playstyle and how he works. I would prefer he function more similarly to other faction supreme leaders like Rowboat gorilla glue. Auras, monster status, a bodyguard rule, high toughness, strike/sweep attacks profile, etc. I'm fine with the loss of a phase cap though. Instead he seems like a slightly juiced up warboss leading a unit. It doesn't really fit with his huge model/base. I liked how he worked in 9th better. This seems like they took him in another direction and downgraded him to a squad leader like Snikrot or Zagstruck. Not a fan of that decision, even if he ends up as a powerhouse squad leader. T6 doesn't feel right either with most things getting tougher as they stretch the scale. Is it fine cause he'll be shielded by mega nobz? Probably... but still. Squigbuggy still has too many unknowns to say for sure. without points, toughness, etc. The gun seems okay though as you say. Glad somebody sees where I'm coming from with ere we go and waagh, and the detachment rule. I was hoping for changes there. A once per battle faction rule and super generic melee only buff are not exciting, even if power level wise they are fine. And super tilted towards one style of play as our only detachment for a while kinda sucks. If I wanna play my speed freak army, many of the ork rules do not do much for me. That feels bad IMO. Are orks going to be terrible? Probably not. But this focus was still disappointing.
I truly feel and understand everyones discontent with Ghaz, im with you and everyone else on that matter, as ive stated elsewhere I fully expected him to remain a monster, lone operative and be shunted to a T10-11 heavy weight, and im perplexed as to why he didnt stick to that design path. He has always been described as Deff Dread than an infantryman since as long as I remember so ye, real strange. BUT im not upset with how he is, im actually fine with it and I think it serves him better having that bodyguard protection! I lost Ghaz to the stupidest crap. Psychic phase MWs, Movement MWs, Shooting MWs, Charge MWs. He honestly didnt feel tough after about 3 months of his release when everything got past Phase Locks. Im actually a lot happier that he gets to arrive into melee unscathed now and krumps to the bitter end instead of being finished off to some rogue Ballistarii doing charge MWs and kicking him to the curb. Overall I agree with the direction theyve gone with him, but he is kind of like Cawl where he just doesnt match the other Supreme Commanders weve seen in that his abilities dont live up to his standard and prowess. The longer ive sat digesting it the T6 annoyance has worn off because realistically itll never come up in game until he is quite literally the last model in his unit and if thats the case I think he has bigger worries if theyve carved through his retinue and 2++ invuln tanking grot. We have seen them do the same with Abaddon though Abbie has some downright filth for his abilities that really sell the Warmaster. If Ghaz had that calibre of abilities id honestly put him up there as one of the best characters weve seen yet. Yeah the rukkatrukk I agree with again, we just dont know how itll look defensively and its hard to guess because weve had the sheer insanity of the stormspeeder leaping to T9 and I just cant see that happening with the buggies even the heavier ones like the rukka and scrapjet. I just know that -1 damage is going and anyone thinking itll remain is kidding themselves. To begin with there just isnt that many Str 7 and below damage 2 weapons. Autocannons (other than the icarus and reaper) and Krak Grenades are now Str 9.... That leaves shuriken and heavy bolters as the next common thing at 2 damage and now shuriken cannons are wounding buggies on 5s (they will be atleast T7 SURELY). Could ramshackle stay and just change its ability? Sure, but I doubt it. Other than Universal Special Rules I dont think any unit is sharing datasheet rules (the only rule that is shared is the army rule aka Waaagh), if anything trukks will revert back to the only unit that has it. And I feel you on that last bit, ive always primarily played shoota boyz and ranged kommandos (when they could take shootas) and when I wasnt playing Blood Axes it was my Dreadwaaagh. The armies rules arent really meshing well with those units. I dont think itll be wise advancing and charging a Morkanaut for example... it wont be able to shoot a single gun (lets be real, it aint getting assault on anything other than the KMB if that).
Funny you mentioned Cawl, who is toughness 8 lol.
I did explain why he is T8 (in another comment of ours somewhere haha). Even though it feeeeeeels so wrong, its purely for gameplay balance reasons. No matter what you do, Cawl and Roboute will never get that retinue to absorb all the shots. Raising their toughness reduces the effectiveness of what is realistically going into them if they were to remain at T6 (str 6/7/8/9). Thats the sole reason why, you can bet if there were leaders and infantry they would remain T6 or even go down to 5 to match whatever unit theyd be forced to join.
I get why they wouldn't increase his toughness since they did decide to make him a leader. I'm just saying the fact his T6 feels so wrong is a reason for not going down that design path in the first place. None of that design space seems to fit Ghaz's feel. He's a huge monster model with the rules of an infantry squad leader. They aren't necessarily bad rules. They just don't fit. He makes more sense as a big bad like robot man rather than a guy who hides behind a grot to tank hits for him.
Yeah I fully understand, I'm also like "hmmm ok...." when it comes to it, be really in actuality it doesn't mean anything. He could be toughness 2 and it still wouldn't solely because his toughness will never come into play until he is very much by himself, something if argue won't happen often at all and when it does I don't think ghaz will be long for this world! 😂 in essence just AP going down wholesale is making his retinue vastly more durable, Power/chainfists and Thunderhammers are all AP 2 with the latter even being damage 2 now. That'd a farcry from AP4 ass doctrine PFs giving MANz a colonoscopy whilst terminators were generally on a 4++ anyway with stormshields. Now we are looking a having a 4+ save vs most melee weapons or even a 3+ vs the true damage dealers. It'll take a bit of work to actually get to Ghaz (if we aren't just talking about dumping his unit full of thermal cannons). I think that's better for Ghaz in the long run. No one wants their model getting domed without a chance, and I sure as hell wouldn't want my Ghaz to be neck snapped by some fire prism parking up within 12" and unloading a beam of light into his fungal riddled backside. I'm all aboard how unorky it feels for him to be T6, but also it really doesn't matter. Having a retinue beats being a lone operative any day of the week. I reckon the ghaz's and abbies of the world will be a lot more prevalent than the Cawls and Roboutes. Its gonna be a nightmare dealing with Abaddon with 5-10 terminators and ill imagine it'll be just as daunting when ghaz rocks up with his bullyboyz (he's always had his Goff Guard in the lore)
Nerfs are to be expected. This whole edition is a lethality reset. You need to view everything through that. > Waaagh - As faction rule this was to be expected... but it's arguably been nerfed. At best its a side grade IMO. GW was using constant buffs to the Waaagh as a band-aid to keep orks playable. Hopefully other rules and datasheets make up for resetting the Waaagh to closer to the beginning of 9E. Beast Snaggas were overall buffed or left unchanged which is a buff. Keeping -1Ap on our melee weapons was quite unexpected. Chaos SM lost -1AP on their weapons. They are better in Ld, Sv, and movement. That's all pretty massive.Going to a FnP instead of invuln means they no longer have anti-synergy with the Waaagh invuln. Ya without points the Stompa preview is pointless. It's been unplayable for multiple editions. Even the Nauts were basically unplayable due to points. With how low ork defense is I think Never beaten will be pretty easy to use. You use it when their big melee unit charges you. Overall it's ok I'd say. Not seeing boyz is very disappointing imo as I really dislike beast snagga stuff. Ghaz's new profile is a slightly better warboss but his model is a massive monster. Big disconnect there. With my friends I'm honestly likely just gonna use his old model.
Just as a correction, CSM havent lost an AP on their chainswords haha! Just to make you aware, berserkers however did (and between CSM and Zerkers there isnt much difference in overall damage dealt, we are talking 3 damage between the two units with Lethal on the CSM and Sustained 1 on the Zerkers).
~~Pretty sure the close combat weapon is what a boy armed with the thump gun gets instead of his choppa (he has to give up both slugga and choppa to take the thump gun)~~ WHoops replied to wrong comment
That's a fair point for the waaagh I guess. They did actually buff it midway through 9th as a bandaid. It didn't originally do all that. Leave more room for power elsewhere. Maybe it's preference but I still would have liked to see a faction rule that does something beyond 1 turn. Waaagh almost feels like a stratgem at this point. Also true of the beast snaggas. My concern there would be points. And paying points for those choppas. Why is there a generic close combat profile there ? Makes me worried you'd have to pay for choppas. Agreed on the rest.
I'm assuming the close combat weapon is for the dude with the thumpgun? Maybe he loses his choppa when equipped with it?
No you're right. That's likely what it is. I missed that lol
Pretty sure the close combat weapon is what a boy armed with the thump gun gets instead of his choppa (he has to give up both slugga and choppa to take the thump gun)
Yeah that makes sense actually. I missed that. Thump gunner doesn't have a choppa so needs a weapon profile.
Your loser attitude isn't very orky
Hey its fine that people disagree. But I think its unfair to say I have to be hyped about the ork rules they showed no matter what. I'm just laying out my thoughts. Orks could still be fine as an army. Points matter alot. I'm just saying this faction focus did not wow me. I think I layed out a fair case as to why. It's not just hate or doom and gloom. I'd love for people to refute anything I said.
I agree, just because we play Orkz doesnt mean we have to pretend our rules dont matter. As fun as Orks are in the fluff and to hobby around with, our rules and how we interact on the table is a huge part of the game. I dont mind loosing, however I dont like loosing with little hope of it even being remotely even or balanced. Ive sat out of most of 9th with Orkz because they just dont feel right or enjoyable and theyve been my main army none stop since 4th. Its not all just Waaaghs and Ere we go.
Yeah exactly. I feel like if you aren't playing goffs pressure, you are missing out on a lot of power. Power orks need to compete with other armies. I wish that wasn't the case for my main army.
I'm sure you'd love it, but I can't be arsed. Too busy krumpin.
Hey that's fine. I'm not looking to argue. I admire your unshakable optimism.
Amen brother
My 2 cents about the close combat weapon- the Beast Snagga Boy with Thump Gun doesn't have a Choppa or claw so that's probably what they'll be using, I don't think Choppas are being changed to cost points.
No you're right. That makes more sense. I did miss that the thump gunner loses his choppa and needs a melee weapon profile.
Yea, let's focus half our preview on the stompa.... the most un-used and overcosted unit in the codex.
But like… maybe not this time! The Boyz just have to believe enough!
Hmmm... Looks like it could be pretty interestin' for Da Boyz. Especially if their points cost is right. A few random thoughts and speculation: * Gretchin units (Killa Kans specifically) might not be omitted from almost all the strategems and special rules, which means that they might be pretty good again! * We'll have to see what the final unit cards look like because I think they'll end up moving some of the flavorful and unique stuff onto the cards. (Ramshackle will probably end up on the cards for example) * If all Boyz get a boost to armor like the Beast Snagga Boyz, anti-infantry fire will be a lot less lethal for all Boyz, which will also make big mobs more effective. Generally, all the other armies' small arms have a strength 4, ap -1/0 for their basic infantry which will be less effective against Boyz. Also, it looks like other heavy anti-infantry weapons, like the assault and onslaught cannons have a lot of shots but low AP as well, which means Boyz will be able to soak those better. * I think the 'Core Rules' changes have helped Orks a lot in subtle ways. For example, I'll bet the dakka Ork units like Lootas and Mek Gunz are likely to be "Heavy", allowing them to be BS4+ (or maybe even 3+ for gretchin units) while standing still, and the Speed Freakz units will likely get "Assault" weapons again allowing them to be shooty and fast. * We already knew that Meks can increase the BS of a vehicle's weapons (and the Boyz inside) by 1 as well, making Dread Mobz more effective while they close with the enemy, as well as transports full of Boyz. These increase Ork vehicle effectiveness by a lot. * Boards are a lot smaller than they were too, so if Orks are now a little faster, they'll be able to close the distance with other armies and likely get a turn 1 or 2 charge if the enemy isn't hiding in the back of their deployment zone. I think the Ladz will be alright as long as they are priced competitively (in points) because they'll be able to drown their opponent with dice.
I dont think ramshackle will remain as it is, we havent seen a single -1 damage. Not on a dread, not on a carnifex. Its not even a universal special rule. Wouldnt surprise me if its gone for good like Mob Rule, Dakka weapons and Ere We Go (even if it still exists as a strat). Gretchin wont have the BS restriction anymore, they even state killkans can use Orks is Never Beaten. I dont think Heavy will be that wide spread, if anything itll only be Deffguns and Smashaguns. Same with assault weapons, most of our shoota weapons are most likely rapid fire.
That's possible. I don't know if ramshackle will make it to as many vehicles again, but I would be pretty surprised if Trukks didn't have anything like it, or some other unique rule. I believe Trukks have had a rule like that in every codex since 3rd.
Trukks will most likely be the only unit again that has ramshackle like it was in the past and in older editions it was just a 6+++ FNP and even further back just a funky way of the vehicle getting destroyed. Other than Universal Special Rules and Army Rules, I dont think any unit is gonna share datasheet abilities, everything is looking to have its own unique rule (even if it could be a USR like all the types of sticky objective and reroll to hit rules).
Squig Launchas were Assault, and are not anymore. Not sure if we can extrapolate that to other buggies.
Yeah, they might not give them any keyword and leave it at that as well. Buggies and bikes used to have "Assault" weapons until 9th, when they replaced a lot of stuff with "Dakka" weapons.
> Lootas and Mek Gunz are likely to be "Heavy" Lootas lost heavy in 9th, so I imagine that'll still be the case. No shooting Lootas on 3+ :(
True, but heavy used to be a liability and now it's a buff. Afaik there's no no downside to the Heavy keyword anymore. They may also end up being "Rapid Fire 1" with two base shots to recreate "Dakka 2/3", based on Ghaz's gun's stats as well. I'm pretty sure they're keeping the maximum bonus/minus as +1/-1 for BS and WS modifiers, with extra bonuses past+1 just cancelling out any -1 modifiers. So they'd only be BS 4+ max. We'll just have to see what they end up doing, but I'm relatively optimistic.
They'll simply make stuff like lootas or tankbustas BS 6 with the heavy keyword. Tau and votann had the heavy weapons on their infantry models changed to BS5 so it's not unheard of.
I'm just starting out in orks but don't even have to read the link to know they got the best preview because WAAAAAAAAAGHHHH!
ITZ WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! WEDNEZDEY MY DUDEZ!!!!!!!
They start by talking up the flexibility of Orks and then they double down on all things melee for the army because apparently Orks aren't interested in dakka anymore? Ghaz also loses his four wounds per phase ability and becomes weaker than the superhero characters for many other factions. Right, then. Good thing the actual codex doesn't come out until next year, it'll give them a chance to fix this. There's some good in here, no doubt, but there's also some awful.
That can be said for literally every faction preview. Also changes that don’t mirror the last rule set are not inherently awful. I think it is foolish to get upset at the preview because it is just the tip of the iceberg.
Makari is part of the unit now so Ghaz will benefit from his 2+ save and the toughness of the unit he is in
Leaders can't be assigned wounds until their bodyguard unit is dead. So that 2++ won't come into play until late in the game or if the bodyguard unit get's nuked. Precision also does get around it.
The indexes will come out way before the codex. The codex is more for flair in terms of lore and having the indexes in it.
It sounds, though, like the rules out of the box are intended to level-set all factions in the new metagame so that everyone is starting from a relatively balanced place to begin with. They're "basic" rules which will be fleshed-out in codexes later. Really GW had to do it that way if they are to dramatically alter the game, otherwise you'd have some factions operating off their old codexes that are out of whack with the new metagame. For what it's worth releasing basic rules for all factions is how GW used to do it early on; 2nd edition, for instance, had an included book with basic stats and rules for every unit in every faction.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them. You might get a couple of detachments, but that would be the extent of it.
They are getting rid of defined subfactions. However you will get detachments that have rules that allow you to play how old factions worked. Our index detachment is goffs. The Sister's index detachment is OOM, etc.
I don’t think they’re getting rid of subfactions exactly - GW is just uncoupling how you paint your models from how they play. The detachment rules will likely have a bunch of versions, likely a speed freek one, a shooty one, a tough one, a hard-hittin’ one, a “lucky” one, etc. They said that marines are getting their First Company one, which is like the Deathwing for Dark Angels, so I suspect we will still have most of the subfactions in some form.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them. You might get a couple of detachments, but that would be the extent of it.
They are actually getting rid of all the subfactions. What you see is what should be for all orks moving forward. They made the bad mistake of allowing so many subfactions that they are now removing them
I think missing the extra detachments is going to force (almost) every faction into one niche. CSM, WE, and Custodes’ faction abilities seems to have gotten along fairly well given the flexibility of them, but most other faction+detachment abilities are “do your one thing slightly better.”
I agree. Waiting half a year to be truly flexible is a bit of a bummer. I am hopeful they will bake in some flexibility with all of these traits on datacards, but have been aware that we were going to get one detachment that was going to buff melee or dakka was going to be disappointing one way or another.
Ghaz is exactly in line with all heroes which are in his weight category like Abaadon. No one has a wound cap now and your either hard as nails or you can join a unit as your defence. Ghaz can join a unit so he isn't gonna be T10 with a load of wounds.
Ghaz's model is a monster. Him being reduced to T6 and infantry makes no sense. He's now barely better than a regular warboss. There likely will be no difference between him and a mega armoured warboss except potentially his invuln.
I think people are forgetting he needs to be included with Makari who has a 2++ Invulv save. If he can be included in a block of 20 boyz he's going to be very tanky.
Ghazghull can be propably included only to mega Nobz
Ladz da only ting da mattas iz da umeez lern to proppa kountin "New edition of Warhammer lotz"!!! This really made my day regardles of rules
WAAAAAAGHH!
Tired: Ghazghkull was nerfed to T6 Wired: Makari was buffed to T6
And since he's a leader likely means at least meganobz but possibly also normal nobz are going to T6. edit: Looking at his move I'm guessing it will only be meganobz.
Or maybe warboss is t6 and he can accompany a unit of WARBOSSES!
Finally a use for all of my Black Reach bosses!!! LETZ FRAKKIN GO!!!!
I don't think that will be the case but it would be hilarious.
Me neither, but way back they did have a warboss retinue product I think.
I think this looks really good and the more you look into it the more subtle buffs we got like 5+ save for smagga boys plus a FNP on top. Waaagh is technically worse but they kept the best bits. What sold me is while everyone is getting less deadly (for the most part) we look just as deadly as before tbh. Keeping ap1 on choppas is huge. Bring on 10th!!!!
+5 save vs 6++ is not an upgrade
Incorrect IMO - with what we have seen with 10th lack of AP means a 5+ with a 6+ FNP is better than a single 6++ In cover we have a 4+ save and 6+ FNP AND 5++ from Waagh for a turn too.
Agreed this is over all a good thing if we consider what a Kustom Force Field can bring to the Waaagh!
Yep, and if you can get 1-2 other hard hitting units flanking around Ghaz and then pop the Waagh and have Lethal hits from Makari......bad times for opponents.
Totally agree - streamlined Ork shenanigans are going to be awesome. Ghaz as a leader (and other characters) with super makari plus embarking in vehicles is going to be super fun
I feel like this was super phoned in. Sure, still playable and we will have our fun, but I did not expect to basically say that melee armies are the way to go. The waaagh is a mechanic that I don't like personally, but I guess it is being stuck with that for another edition. (I feel like that there is so much more cooler mechanical stuff that can be done with orks instead of 1 turn of mayhem and then going limp. Something that can represent the rowdyness, the endless hordes or even their willingness to go hard on a fight, but doesn't go away in 1 turn)
Phoned in is an understatement. Waaagh! Tribe…… how long did they spend coming up with that diet Goff bullshit.
"Without having seen any of the ranged unit profiles or rules, I hereby conclude that this playstyle will not be viable". Oh reddit, never change...
God forbid someone actually take something away from one of these previews. Look I know reddit is a hive mind that can't accept dissent without needing to take a mental health day, but how much stuff do you need to see before you can reasonably say "yeah this is how the faction is gonna be for a while"? I guess everything they told us today is just pissing in the wind huh? No, it's a strong indicator of the way the army's going to play, and no amount of semantic whining about incomplete information changes the trends and ideas that are likely coming in the next few months.
God forbid someone actually take something away from one of these previews. Look I know reddit is a hive mind that can't accept dissent without needing to take a mental health day, but how much stuff do you need to see before you can reasonably say "yeah this is how the faction is gonna be for a while"? I guess everything they told us today is just pissing in the wind huh? No, it's a strong indicator of the way the army's going to play, and no amount of semantic whining about incomplete information changes the trends and ideas that are likely coming in the next few months.
Oh no, I do agree we don't have the full picture to know if it is viable or not. I meant that the rules do give incentives to that play style, and not something more diverse. There will be other detachments in the future when the codex comes out, but at the moment, both rules are basically mirroring what the goffs had. Ironically, you are doing exactly what you attempted to complain about, which is exaggerating the interpretation of a few words.
I have many armies in 40K, and have been following the previews closely. While I do agree that this preview is a snapshot of what to expect for our armies, and the indication about it being melee centric is very accurate, I'd like to point out that this will be our INDEX army.... As with every other preview, we will start 10th edition with a slice of what our army will be able to bring to bare, and the codex roll out should (hopefully) allow for greater range of options. This may only be a hope, but comparing to the other faction previews, Orks did pretty good.
> and the codex roll out should (hopefully) allow for greater range of options. It's guaranteed we will. Detachments are replacing factions. The ork index detachment is Goffs. With the codex we will get detachments representing other aspects of ork fighting.
We 100% lost ramshackle, it's the only reason why they did not show the full Stompa card. Other than that, the usual focus on troops, with very little meat for us Mekbosses. That said, at least it seems that larger Boyz units won't be completely wiped out from morale and. Very disappointed with Ghaz, now, unless you throw him in a unit, it gets obliterated turn one...
The stompa never had ramshackle. Another reason among many it was shit. > Very disappointed with Ghaz, now, unless you throw him in a unit, it gets obliterated turn one... Ghaz HAS to be in a unit. He doesn't have the lone operator ability. He has the Leader one. Leaders can not start the game as a solo unit. I agree that Ghaz's is disappointing. He could be amazing but thematically I really don't like it. T6 and infantry yet hes larger than Roboute whos T9 and a monster. Why not just give him the same rule as Roboute where he gets protection if within 3" or just embrace his monster potential and give him a matching toughness and wound count. His current profile will likely be identical to a mega armoured warboss with maybe a better invuln.
Worth noting you HAVE to take him in a unit, that's how HQs work this edition
Actually there is a big bonus for Mek bosses in that Kans and Dreads fully participate in the Waaagh (neither were core before) and both get detachment bonuses (Kans didn't). That's actually pretty great. Edit: Also waaagh! no longer requires a warboss or speedboss so a Mek as your general is fair game again.
Fair, did not consider that.
Also you can use the Speedboss and not sacrifice the melee Waaagh!
Yeah everybody has more flexibility which should help as the meta evolves.
Ghaz is now designed to be at the head of a big mob of nobz or meganobz, he'll probably be more durable now than he was before
His profile really doesn't match his model though. His new profile matches his old model so much better. He's likely going to be identical to a mega armoured warboss.
We also haven't seen what KFF or Pain boys do.
They did say that the painboys have a new role this edition
Damage soak? Not sure what else they can do.
Based on a lot of the other rules my guess is they might be able to bring boyz back, which would be awesome
Painboy bringing a MAN back to Ghaz's retinue per turn? Sounds spicy if it proves to be possible.
I hope so. I admit that I have yet to purchase him, since I very rarely play and Ghaz is not exactly part of my army (see tag). That said, I am purposefully pessimistic, mainly because I hope to be pleasantly surprised when the full rules go live. Especially being also in the Death Guard subreddit, I think we were not hit too hard, but there is still too much to see before being certain.
True! Until we have full rules and points for everything, we can’t make hard calls on good/bad, just gut feels on extremely incomplete data
A couple expected nerfs, but one 'UGE buff - everyone gets the goffs klan trait, but better, all the time, for free.
> everyone gets the goffs klan trait, but better, all the time, for free. No. You get the Goff trait if you use the Goff detachment. Currently that is the only detachment we have but when we get our codex you can swap out the Goff detachment for another one. You will use sustained hits 1 for something else like Assault on all guns or something for Speed Freaks.
How is it better? If you played goffs before you had the same rule all the time for free but with an extra strength on the charge. This rule isn't on top of another rule or clan trait. It's essentially just replacing the goffs clan trait you had before without the strength buff.
Well I didnt play goffs, so it seems nice to me. Fair point about losing the strength, but you are also getting guaranteed hits, not just extra swings. But that brings up a good question - are individual klans still getting bonuses? Have other armies gotten tweaks for chapters/warbands/craft worlds et.
No. These detachments rules are essentially replacing clan traits. And until the ork codex comes out.. this is the only detachment we have. The goffs trait was additional hits.. not swings. It's the same.
I like it.
It seems like hordes of snagga boyz will be handy for protecting heroes, and battleshock won't end up wiping out a horde anymore. Losing models to combat tests was horrid. Extra attacks on rolls of 6 will make this fun.
Hard meh on my part. Nothing terrible, but it would be nice if we could already know if Shoota boyz are viable this time or if they're relegated to never being used (again). I'd also like to know why Ghaz, a towering ork monstrosity wearing the best plate an Ork can probably get outside of wearing a Stompa has T6 while a piddly little custodes in terminator armor has T7.
He was T7 in 9th no ? He actually lost a pip of toughness in an edition where they are stretching toughness and increasing the strength of a lot of weapons. Las cannons actually wound him on 2s now. I see this as a nerf to ghaz. No wound cap (fine and expected). But losing toughness, wounds, ap, movement, and not going up in strength at all... The only boon really is the +1 to hit and wound rolls for him and his unit. And Makari got nerfed to a 1 turn banner aura. I guess he's tanking wounds for ghaz now ? Which is weird. Disappointing. I was hoping for guilliman levels of abilities. He costs the same points as of now... so unless Ghaz gets cheaper.. disappointing
And it's kind of weird that other factions get primarchs and equivalents (hell, *Cawl* is T8) and then the Orks' biggest warboss is basically a normal Warboss in terms of durability (assuming that Warbosses are tougher than regular boyz).
Its worth noting Cawl cannot join units, like at all. Whilst it feels rightly pathetic that Ghaz is only T6, it is clear to see why. Cawl and Roboute can never have the protection that Ghaz and Abaddon have, and thats being nestled in a brick of terminators and meganobz. Whilst the likes of Ghaz and Abbie's unit can be targeted from the get go, its still going to take a considerable amount of effort to crack through all that sheer woundage. For Cawl and Roboute someone just has to walk/drive/sliver up to 12" and unload a mag into them. Thats why their respective toughness is so much higher. A Repulsor Executioner can mosey on up and dumpster either character, that isnt possible in the regards to Ghaz. If Cawl and Roboute were still T6, that opens up a hell of lot more weapons that will feasibly kill them, either in the 12" sweet spot or in melee. Thats literally it, pure and simple. I fully understand that it feels so unorky, I was expecting Ghaz to remain a monster and be T10-11 with Lone Operative, but instead we got him as a leader who is infantry.
I expected ghaz to be s tough as a primarch :(
Honestly expected much the same. I don't really care for special characters in general (deviates from the 'your dudes' aesthetic), but the fact that Ghaz isn't anywhere near the level of other similar things seems like an ill omen. Not helping matters is that GW seems to have it in for every faction I play, always fucking *something* up.
Primarchs look to have received a big buff, to be at a power level above the other faction's main leaders. Lore wise that's right; Ghaz is nowhere near RG, he's more at the level of Primaris Ragnar Blackmane. Abaddon is maybe a better comparison, and he also lost a point of movement and a point of toughness (both now 5).
>Lore wise that's right; Ghaz is nowhere near RG, he's more at the level of Primaris Ragnar Blackmane. Gonna have to call you out on that one. Ghaz got decapitated by Ragnar *before* either got their upgrades, and the fight ended in what was essentially a mutual kill. Now, however, Ghaz got his head sewed onto whatever Frankensteinian super-ork body Grotsnik had been cooking up. That plus the warp procedure (especially given the greater effect of the warp on realspace nowadays – cicatrix maledictum and all that, Ork belief causing changes in reality still being somewhat of a thing) that resurrected him would probably have propelled Ghaz quite a bit higher on the dangerous thing totem pole than before. We don't know *how* big of a deal Ghaz is now because GW refuses to write lore for factions that aren't the Imperium or Abby.
I think the big difference for game-play purposes, is that Gulliman isn't a leader, while Ghaz is, so he got the same treatment as Abaddon. Chances are high Ghaz will last the game, but not a primarch :)
Yes that is why. The question is why make him a leader? Roboute stayed a monster and went to T9. Ghaz lost being a monster and went to T6. Look at Ghaz's model next to Roboute's. Who actually looks like a monster. Now Ghaz and a regular mega armoured warboss are going to have nearly or identical stats and the only difference is rules. It looks so stupid. I'm honestly just going to use Ghaz's old model as that one makes sense with these piddly stats.
Game balance is probably the reason why. Abaddon got the same treatment. I'm guessing they don't want primarch lvl stats with the leader key word.
Cawl is T8? Jeez. What a disappointment
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I disagree, I feel like this is more of that simplified but not simple that we’ve seen. I am excited for the most part except… why doesn’t Ghaz get sweep! At least he can go in a unit now to mitigate just getting mobbed by chaff.
5+ armor for boyz (based on Snaggas), -1 AP on Choppas, and lots of krumpin.
I would not be confident that snaggas having a 5+ armor save means boyz do too. Not at all.
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