Not sure if it would be redundant considering you have “Metropolitan” in the name, but it could also be “City of Orlando Metropolitan Express Transit (COMET)” 🙂
I would happily pay more in taxes if I knew it would actually go to something like this. I don't think there's anything I hate more than sitting in traffic especially after visiting European cities that have great train systems.
Tricky thing in Orlando is the distances between things are much longer than the European cities we love. Even crossing the streets in some areas can be an entire trip by foot.
The part my brain can't solve is how many lines and transfers to optimize everyone's commutes to the point of no one needing a car after getting out of the station, and also how to not have to stop 300 times between your station and your final destination
For sure, US cities were primarily built up after the automobile while European cities can go back thousands of years. Still, investing in public transportation could lead to more TOD (transit-oriented development) where developers are incentivized to build more densely near stations because that's where people will want to live. Something similar is already happening with Brightline in South Florida with new developments rising next to their new stations.
Very true, I was thinking of a couple examples of them being included after I posted that, and Lord of the Rings was definitely the first one that popped into my head. The community has always abbreviated to LotR or LOTR lol
Making the world better starts with fantasy, until someone makes it a reality. Or you know just stay in your hole and expect things just magically get better.
And Mills/50, Packing District, etc.
Seems to go down Fairbanks instead of North Orange to head towards Winter Park, but doesn't branch off to Park Ave where it could drop you right at the Sunrail station.
And for some reason three stops within a short walking distance: Thornton Park, Summerlin, and Lake Eola. And also stops at Lake Lancaster, which is kinda near the hospital, but nothing in SoDo or Lake Holden area which are growing really fast. There is a stop at Fashion Square, but that area is effectively dead for retail. Festival Park isn't a terrible stop given its proximity to the Milk District, but nothing on Corrine/Audubon Park with all the amazing food and retail right there?
No real reason to go full elevated. There are existing tracks that are used by Sunrail, and a lot of relatively unused tracks or space to put them throughout the city.
* There's a bunch of rarely used track that goes down OBT into downtown and connects with the rail that Amtrack and Sunrail use. That's your track south from the Packing District to ORMC/Winnie Palmer, SoDo, Amtrak, Lake Holden, all the way to Southchase, so you could run a branch from that to SeaWorld, then southwest to Universal and Disney.
* Going north on that downtown connection takes you to the College Park/Advent Health Sunrail station all the way into Winter Park and Park Ave. From the College Park station, you create an east/west junction that runs from Packing District, through College Park/Edgewater Drive, all the way through to Audubon Park and Baldwin Park.
* For east and west Orlando, you can split off the Sunrail line on the south side of Downtown, and follow 408 both directions to go from the Ocoee Orlando Health hospital to UCF. At 408 and Semoran, you add a south leg that goes to the airport and connects you to the Brightline station.
I'm sure I've missed a few key places to hit, so let me know if there's anything else to add. Using the existing infrastructure, according to the questionable distance measuring tool in Maps, you're looking at somewhere in the range of 55-60 miles of new track total, versus the hundreds an elevated rail would require.
Too far south for the 408 line and too far east for the Winter Park -> Downtown loop. That loop does hit Lake Ivanhoe, but that's still a trek. Maybe a small branch with two or three quick stops from the Advent Health Sunrail station on Princeton that travels down Mills and connects to the 408 branch.
Light rail cars can operate on heavy rail tracks and do. NJ has a light rail that runs on heavy rail lines. The main issue is frequency and there are very few trains operating on those lines during the day. Just Sunrail and an Amtrak train or two a day.
So Disney falls into under the Black and Gold lines for my SunRail Improvement Plans. It’s easier to keep the two systems separate as the Mark V’s a need electrified fourth rail system and linear induction plates. Those plates would have to be installed on about 5 miles of SunRail/Brightline track which would close the sunshine corridor (assuming it’s built first) for upgrades. It’d be about 4 miles between the Florida Center and Destination Parkway/OCCC all of which is in Orange County and would need county approval. It’s certainty possible but I doubt that Disney would allow a metro system directly connecting their property (assuming they own the Disney Springs station) and Universal.
I live in Williamsburg, near Sea World. We have A LOT of commuters, homes, apartment complexes, etc. A COMET stop in this neighborhood would have a profound positive effect on I4 rush hours.
The about 8 people at one attraction alone that I knew lived east of downtown and talked about the joys of traffic and trying to use Lynx to get to work definitely would want a competent transit system to go to Disney. How many people does Disney employ? Now include all the other large businesses in the general attractions area. Do you think all of them don’t live in the areas served by this theoretical system? What about all the businesses that could have easier access to a larger pool of workers and customers, you think they wouldn’t want the potential traffic from the Disney area?
I absolutely love this.
I personally think what you have going over 408 should run down Colonial then up Alafaya to catch UCF. Colonial for a few reasons. It’s more central to residents so they can walk to the stations. It can move people along a major shopping and eating corridor. People will cry about losing lanes but they can now use the train. it elevated running down the middle can create safe bike/walk paths under it, a lane for each direction, and parallel parking.
Same for going west and bring it out to Winter Garden or Ocoee.
As much as I love it, I think your costs are WAY too low. The Las Vegas monorail in 2004 has a $650m cost for 4 miles, roughly $162.5m per mile which would be roughly $275m per mile in today's dollars.
Compare that to SunRail, which was at-grade crossing (much cheaper) using a lot of existing track (though yes, they did double line it) and it was in excess of $615 million and probably around $1b for its 32 miles, roughly $31.25m million per mile which is roughly $52m per mile today.
On top of that, the Vegas Monorail takes more "back roads." Construction didn't directly occur on Las Vegas Blvd (the main drag of the Vegas Strip). If they had to do road closings, traffic rerouting, etc. on the major roads, it would be even more expensive. You can look at the I-4 work - it cost more and took longer because they didn't whole hog shut down I-4 during construction. Your plan would have major construction for many years on these roads and therefore will cost more "than average",
You are estimating a 55.3 mile system at a cost of $82.8m a mile with elevated track over main roadways. I just don't see how it is only 50% more expensive than already laid track at ground level. Meanwhile, a comparable (but yet still less complex) project would cost $275m and you are only getting to $82.8m. Sorry, but I think the cost for this system is going to be closer to $15b rather than the $5b you estimated.
On top of that, let's talk operating costs. Currently, SunRail operating costs are roughly $47m a year, running 20 trains per day over its now 61 mile system that runs a single line/route on 261 days per year. While it is diesel based and therefore much higher fuel costs, it has lower maintenance costs because of no electrified track and its very simple system (again, single line, at grade, very basic outdoor stations, no elevators, etc.). Ticket prices on SunRail are much higher than your proposed costs, and SunRail ticket's don't even cover the cost of handling ticketing... Meanwhile, the Maimi MetroRail had a $41.29m annual budget in 2006 for its 24.4 mile system, which would be roughly $64 million a year in today's dollars (and at a $21.14m loss, which in 2024 would be $37.6m) and while that is an elevated system, it runs adjacent to US-1 and not over it. I couldn't find data for the Las Vegas Monorail, but suffice it to say the company running it went bankrupt.
I'd say the MetroRail numbers are closer to costs since it is elevated, so expect $2.6m per year per mile operating costs and at best, to recover 25%-50% via ticket sales and advertising. So budget of $143.8m with revenue of $36m to $72m, for an annual loss of $72m to $107m per year.
TL/DR: Your budget of $5b is very low and probably closer to $15b plus expect an annual operating cost/loss of $72m to $107m per year.
Idealistically none as the entire system would be built over existing roadways (primarily Semorn Blvd, Church St, JYP, Vineland Rd, Universal Blvd, Westpointe Blvd, Hiawassee Rd, and 408.
There are some places that are more problematic than others. From what I know of my area (Delaney Park), you’ll run into two big issues:
1. The residents won’t want an elevated train running through their neighborhood and will fight hard. Property values will take a hit.
2. The Kaley stretch between Orange to Ferncreek/Bumby (from what I can ascertain in the map) is only a two lane road. Residential houses will need to be eminent domained to make support structures and to make a stop for the Lake Lancaster / Kaley stop. Maybe the Bumby stop too.
I think these two issues will apply to any section of this train going through residential areas. Or any spot where you’re over two lane roads.
There’s ways around it (use Orange Ave to 528 for airport and Semoran connectors), otherwise this will be a deeply unpopular proposal to many residents that this would negatively affect.
I’m all for a robust metro system in Orlando to get cars off the roads. But in all reality, it would likely look similar to our highway grid and you’ll need a MUCH heavier investment into the Lynx bus system to get into the residential neighborhoods.
You cant just elevate a train track!
Meanwhile just one more lane bro: [https://www.tampa-xway.com/initiatives/completed-projects/selmon-west-extension/](https://www.tampa-xway.com/initiatives/completed-projects/selmon-west-extension/)
Wooosh, Im saying that we already did put concrete breams in the middle of a two lane road dude. Doing it for a local metro line would be a far more effective use to move people.
Don’t try to use so much logic! They’re just popping a train up along the busiest roads, it won’t even cause 5-10 of unbearable traffic and construction!
Have you not noticed there are almost no basements in Florida?
Disney wanted a basement, so they had to build the ground UP so that the basement is actually the ground floor and the ground level is actually the second story. You can’t build down.
Needs to go further North as well! Altamonte, Lake Mary, Sanford, and Mount Dora are all growing extremely rapidly. If it had a Downtown Sanford stop I would definitely take it into Orlando!
Genuinely curious, where would you get the 4.5billion to fund this?. Also, how much does this cost compare to the i4 expansion? If it’s along the same costs this would be great.
Orange County has been trying to get a .01¢ sales tax increase that would net the county around $600 million a year solely for transit improvements. Hypothetically it could also be funded by a private-public consortium similar to Vancouver’s Canada Line.
I4 Ultimate (Kirkman Road north to 434) was around $2.4 billion, I4 Beyond the Ultimate (Kirkman Road south to 27 and 434 north to Howland Boulevard) is set to be about $2.2 billion. That figure doesn’t include any reworking that would be needed for the Sunshine Corridor.
You lol but you’re being ignorant. It’s already one of the largest in the world and is under utilized. If it was utilized and filled with any kind of regularity maybe you’d have a leg to stand on but even with that that doesn’t mean it’s greater than bringing in more transit.
It’s long been established subsidizing places like convention centers and stadiums generally has a poor ROI. Places like Mckormick Place in Chicago do well because guess what? It has transit.
The tourist/service industry in Orlando is pretty big and does well. How about we grow up and make the city more attractive to higher paying jobs now. Or at least use those extra tax dollars tourism brings in and put it back through the community for the people instead right back into the tourist industry? Talk about double dipping. 🙄
Disney would be on my SunRail rebuild and keeps needing too much from the county’s approval out.
With the county willing to work, the 3 line (yellow) could continue down 408 towards ucf with the 1 line (red) going down to Disney but I doubt Disney would approve it
https://preview.redd.it/jg9u09l3xt8d1.png?width=1619&format=png&auto=webp&s=cb58b29859cbaa62ecdcf48bb101c0fa39a1ab59
I like this a lot, being that I lived in Kissimmee for over 10 years definitely would be great to have more expansion there as well since the lack of even a proper bus route is atrocious. This is great though love what u have come up with
Just a thought here but three stops on that purple line for Titusville is a bit much. The TIX stop kind of makes sense for tourists to KSC but people are just going to get dumped out at the corner of US1 and 405 and then what? They need transportation from there to wherever.
I also don’t think you need Indian River City and Titusville as stops. Combine them as one for a population that size. Sort of the same line of thinking for Sharpes and Port Saint John and combining them into one.
I think the fact that even in your fantasies you’re designing separate train systems shows just how hopeless the transit station is here in Orlando. Why not fantasize about one cohesive train network that would *actually* serve the city?
NYC also connects Madison square garden and Times Square via their primary subway system. Imagine being like transit to Disney in Orlando, nah I’m good
Suggested edit to this. You can create a loop by connecting Daytona Beach to DeLand. The north extension of Sunrail was supposed to open this summer, not sure if it’s on schedule.
In a perfect world yes, however that map (minus the gold and black lines) is designed to show what can be done with minimal construction (no new row has to be acquired just double tracking and building stations) it’s almost all on track that exists today
I never understood why they didn't at least look at serving UCF and the airport.
Airport rail seems to be popular across the country where they have it and would probably increase ridership a ton.
But don’t you think that you should also be focusing on the fastest growing areas of the city? There’s nothing for the southwest area of Orlando like horizons west, Windermere, celebration, doctor Philipps, four corners. Just throwing Disney Springs in there doesn’t work.
Part of the problem is none of this was conceived before all of these areas were built up on your proposed lines. So you are going to have sooo many people come out against it who don’t want a train coming through their neighborhoods. “They bring undesirables” was the argument I heard in other cities I lived.
It’s sooooooooo much easier to start with this in areas that are actively being built. You can design this as a feature where people will want to live near the transit options from the get go. I know the argument of ridership numbers and profitability but those areas will be fully built up most likely by the time and transit project was ready to actually operate.
I think limiting to just the orlando city limits is too much of a restriction. Not allowing easy access to college students just seems absurd for a rail system.
Would be nice to see an express line from the I-drive area to MCO. I also agree that UCF should be added and that fashion square should be removed. It’s a dead mall that’s not within walking distance of many other activities/attractions. Would rather stop in Ivanhoe, or Audubon.
I think the park and ride is the best reasoning for the stop. Anything “walking distance” from there would be fairly unsafe (crossing heavy car centered traffic on colonial) and unpleasant (heavy noise and car pollution and mostly unshaded) to walk to.
It's sad how little transit-oriented development the regional transit authority has done. Perhaps it just hasn't been able to keep up with the booming development, but it seems like the transit authority has not had good leadership. I hope that has changed.
an overlay on google maps make these way easier to visualize. i can't really tell where the stops are here so my generic statement will be: where are the stations located and how will people access them? will i need to walk a mile to get to the nearest station and will my exit terminal be a stroad 30 minutes by foot from my final destination?
I tried to make a transit system thingy for Orlando but it is genuinely hard. Everyone lives in suburbia so really hard to make something out of that. Yeah it could bring transit oriented development but idk. And then i kept struggling not only the station but the track itself. It cant go underground. That would end really messy because it swampy terrain. It shouldn’t go on roads because the roads are either highways disguised as stroads or just stroads. We could always do elevated but again, where are the stations and how do we make it not look absolutely wierd. And then we have to think about the people in Kissimme and Winter Garden, Sanford and all that good stuff. I was able to make a semi functional tram line from Kissimmee but i just kept struggling for the whole metro area. Then there is eminent domain. No one will give up their suburban house or suburban neighborhood for a train that will be useless unless you live directly next to it. I like your iniative though. There just isn’t political will and it’s honestly something that we need to fight for. Without a functional transit system, the metro area will keep expanding to a point of no return. Its genuinely sad. Its like the train morality thing where you could pull a lever and kill one person or kill 5 people to save that one person. We could tear one family’s home and help multiple families with this train. WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO COMPLICATED!!!
I’d support anything that lets me get from Baldwin Park to Downtown or Universal without driving.
Hopefully someone that can make this comes to Reddit for ideas lol
The problem with mass transit in Orlando, as I see it, is that Orlando is built more out than up. We don’t have many large, highly saturated areas meaning wherever your stations are, most people would still have quite a commute, by foot or others means of transport, to get to their final destinations. It just isn’t practical for most people.
How do you overcome this and make the rails viable for mass transit to justify spending $4B?
To be clear, I’m genuinely curious and not just trying to pick at it. You put a lot of time and effort into this and I’m impressed so seriously would like your feedback on the practicality problem.
You’d have my vote. As others suggested, linking to UCF would be the cherry on top, but I know the area between Baldwin Park and campus may not lend itself to that
How about adding in a line that is a beltway? A blue line for instance.
It would be able to cover Sanford, Apopka, Clermont/ winter garden, four corners, champions gate, celebration/ WDW, Kissimmee , lake Nona , Waterford lakes, UCF, Oviedo, and back to Sanford .
Run it clockwise and counter clockwise
And connect with the three lines you already developed.
As others have mentioned, it desperately needs a connection to the Milk District, Union Park, Research Park, and UCF proper - and probably could get approval from Seminole County to stretch that line further north up a bit to Oviedo.
I'd also posit have a line running north up to Winter Park, then probably also Maitland, Altamonte, Casselberry, Longwood, Sanford, and Lake Mary. There are a shitton of people who commute to and from there daily for work, it'd be used. I myself would be practically daily using the connection from UCF back towards downtown, to then hop a connection onto the line to Sanford for work. But, even beyond personal use, Lake Mary has around 7.5x the town's population that actually work there (town did some wack crap for zoning), so that line would become insanely useful for commuters going to and from work daily
While it is a neat idea and Orlando is one of the few cities in the US where some type of rail system could make sense (for the tourists at least), the actual costs of something like this make it unrealistic. You've underestimated initial costs by a factor of, at least, 2-3x. Not to mention the amount of funding that would be required to fund the annual losses of the system.
That would not work u are missing areas that are low income that can use this transport allot more!!! Hell u have it going to only one collages what about UCF??? Then you only have it stopping at the dead mall that’s about to close and tore down!!! What about stopping on international drive you know how many tourist would use the train to get around where they cause most traffic and accidents since they don’t know where they are going
Literally like 90% of his west Orlando transit rails are in the most low income areas in the city??? If you’re going to complain about tourist attraction stops don’t bring that ridiculous statement into your argument 😂😂 at the most you could argue for more stops/railing in the northwest pine hills area as it is a very big area to cover
UCF, that one I’ll agree with, bring it down 408 to Alafaya then into UCF. For I-Drive it could come down but it would have to end at destinations parkway since adding fourth rail and linear induction pads would close the sunshine corridor SunRail/Brightline line for an extended period of time. Plus bringing transit to a space that’s about to be redeveloped would allow for transit oriented development and establish a blueprint for what new communities could look like.
Is OP from New York? No one is asking for this. I'd like more flyovers, not trains. GTFOH with this bullshit. It is going to fail. No one is going to use it. Seems like a money grab of tax payer dollars down the drain.
> Just one more lane. Then traffic will be fixed, just one more.
lol... honestly, the flyover on semoran and colonial is so sweet, you have to admit that ;) Prior to that flyover, that intersection was from hell.
The biggest problem is residents don’t want train tracks next to their houses because they are loud..
The eminent domain costs alone to build rail here in Orlando would be MASSIVE. Also elevated train tracks is around $150m per mile.
Orlando’s only real shot at transit like this would be monorail due to safety and noise
Modern, automated "light metro" systems like in Vancouver and the new line in Montreal are significantly more quiet than freeways or old wood tracks like in Chicago or NYC, which are so old that they predate underground tunneling techniques and are considered heavy metro. In addition, using rubber tires can help with quieter systems, similar to the APMs at MCO.
55 miles for a billion dollars (after nepotism, overruns and general corruption)?
Have you considered a job in government?
In all seriousness, it’s a great idea. I’d add that instead of using rebar-enforced elevated concrete, just get a roller coaster company to build straight track. It’s just tubular steel packed with sand and welded to more tubular steel. Make them build it at a reasonable price. We’re not Disney World.
Put in a post every 1 football field. Grainger industrial supply for sensors and motors. Theoretical top speed given infinite mass is the speed of light (meaning the thing staying on the tracks is not a concern). You could even include individually routed trains pre-dispatched for specific riders if you wanted to go all Dubai with it. Done.
Not sure if it would be redundant considering you have “Metropolitan” in the name, but it could also be “City of Orlando Metropolitan Express Transit (COMET)” 🙂
I love this idea, especially considering the proximity to Space Coast.
I would happily pay more in taxes if I knew it would actually go to something like this. I don't think there's anything I hate more than sitting in traffic especially after visiting European cities that have great train systems.
Tricky thing in Orlando is the distances between things are much longer than the European cities we love. Even crossing the streets in some areas can be an entire trip by foot. The part my brain can't solve is how many lines and transfers to optimize everyone's commutes to the point of no one needing a car after getting out of the station, and also how to not have to stop 300 times between your station and your final destination
For sure, US cities were primarily built up after the automobile while European cities can go back thousands of years. Still, investing in public transportation could lead to more TOD (transit-oriented development) where developers are incentivized to build more densely near stations because that's where people will want to live. Something similar is already happening with Brightline in South Florida with new developments rising next to their new stations.
> primarily built up Correction, bulldozed and rebuilt.
more like COOMET
Unless I’m mistaken, “of”, “the”, and “to” are not typically capitalized in titles or included in acronyms
Pretty dependent on whether the organization or community in question wants it to include it or not. In this case they decidedly wouldn't though.
Very true, I was thinking of a couple examples of them being included after I posted that, and Lord of the Rings was definitely the first one that popped into my head. The community has always abbreviated to LotR or LOTR lol
An everyday usable train in Orlando is my Adult fantasy.
Making the world better starts with fantasy, until someone makes it a reality. Or you know just stay in your hole and expect things just magically get better.
OP seems like they're working on it. My line of work doesn't lend itself to infrastructure planning but I'll vote for it.
Pretty cool, but you’re missing some key spots like Audubon Park, Ivanhoe Village, and Milk District.
And Mills/50, Packing District, etc. Seems to go down Fairbanks instead of North Orange to head towards Winter Park, but doesn't branch off to Park Ave where it could drop you right at the Sunrail station. And for some reason three stops within a short walking distance: Thornton Park, Summerlin, and Lake Eola. And also stops at Lake Lancaster, which is kinda near the hospital, but nothing in SoDo or Lake Holden area which are growing really fast. There is a stop at Fashion Square, but that area is effectively dead for retail. Festival Park isn't a terrible stop given its proximity to the Milk District, but nothing on Corrine/Audubon Park with all the amazing food and retail right there?
It doesn't go down Fairbanks at all. It doesn't go North in to Winter Park. It goes North of Colonial only in to Baldwin Park on the east side of I4.
Maitland, Winter Park. Granted those are already served by SunRail, but still.
How many hours of Cities Skyline do you have?
Needs a UCF station
Agree with this. Lots of students, parents and sports teams flying into MCO. A station popping up on campus would be a game changer.
Yes! Many students on campus don’t have cars and have to rely on public transit to get around. A rail station would be so useful!
Train ride to Fashion Square Mall? Sign me up!
$70M/mi for fully elevated is probably 2-3x too low
No real reason to go full elevated. There are existing tracks that are used by Sunrail, and a lot of relatively unused tracks or space to put them throughout the city. * There's a bunch of rarely used track that goes down OBT into downtown and connects with the rail that Amtrack and Sunrail use. That's your track south from the Packing District to ORMC/Winnie Palmer, SoDo, Amtrak, Lake Holden, all the way to Southchase, so you could run a branch from that to SeaWorld, then southwest to Universal and Disney. * Going north on that downtown connection takes you to the College Park/Advent Health Sunrail station all the way into Winter Park and Park Ave. From the College Park station, you create an east/west junction that runs from Packing District, through College Park/Edgewater Drive, all the way through to Audubon Park and Baldwin Park. * For east and west Orlando, you can split off the Sunrail line on the south side of Downtown, and follow 408 both directions to go from the Ocoee Orlando Health hospital to UCF. At 408 and Semoran, you add a south leg that goes to the airport and connects you to the Brightline station. I'm sure I've missed a few key places to hit, so let me know if there's anything else to add. Using the existing infrastructure, according to the questionable distance measuring tool in Maps, you're looking at somewhere in the range of 55-60 miles of new track total, versus the hundreds an elevated rail would require.
How about suggestions to connect to the Chinatown plaza area on west Colonial? Would that be the 408 line?
Too far south for the 408 line and too far east for the Winter Park -> Downtown loop. That loop does hit Lake Ivanhoe, but that's still a trek. Maybe a small branch with two or three quick stops from the Advent Health Sunrail station on Princeton that travels down Mills and connects to the 408 branch.
Only thing is that sunrail operates on heavy rail and this would be light rail. Either replacing it or using that empty space to create new ones.
Light rail cars can operate on heavy rail tracks and do. NJ has a light rail that runs on heavy rail lines. The main issue is frequency and there are very few trains operating on those lines during the day. Just Sunrail and an Amtrak train or two a day.
This is incredible. Do you do this also as a living? Or just a passion project? Great planning on both the metro rail system and the sunrain addendum.
You wouldn't take red out to Disney World? Seriously?
So Disney falls into under the Black and Gold lines for my SunRail Improvement Plans. It’s easier to keep the two systems separate as the Mark V’s a need electrified fourth rail system and linear induction plates. Those plates would have to be installed on about 5 miles of SunRail/Brightline track which would close the sunshine corridor (assuming it’s built first) for upgrades. It’d be about 4 miles between the Florida Center and Destination Parkway/OCCC all of which is in Orange County and would need county approval. It’s certainty possible but I doubt that Disney would allow a metro system directly connecting their property (assuming they own the Disney Springs station) and Universal.
Don’t ever stop being you
Ya this person rules
Someone please elect this person to the city council
Why not extend a line to UCF? I think the student and other associated traffic would certainly make a good revenue stream for this system?
I live in Williamsburg, near Sea World. We have A LOT of commuters, homes, apartment complexes, etc. A COMET stop in this neighborhood would have a profound positive effect on I4 rush hours.
You want to go to disney? Seriously?
The about 8 people at one attraction alone that I knew lived east of downtown and talked about the joys of traffic and trying to use Lynx to get to work definitely would want a competent transit system to go to Disney. How many people does Disney employ? Now include all the other large businesses in the general attractions area. Do you think all of them don’t live in the areas served by this theoretical system? What about all the businesses that could have easier access to a larger pool of workers and customers, you think they wouldn’t want the potential traffic from the Disney area?
You're on r/Rollercoaster. You a nerd
Cool, so you don’t actually have a serious rebuttal, just personal attacks and profile stalking.
I mean the paragraph you wrote told me enough about you r/Rollercoaster just solidified it
Reading is hard, amirite?
I absolutely love this. I personally think what you have going over 408 should run down Colonial then up Alafaya to catch UCF. Colonial for a few reasons. It’s more central to residents so they can walk to the stations. It can move people along a major shopping and eating corridor. People will cry about losing lanes but they can now use the train. it elevated running down the middle can create safe bike/walk paths under it, a lane for each direction, and parallel parking. Same for going west and bring it out to Winter Garden or Ocoee.
As a student I agree lol
UCF definitely would be great. Or dropping it just across the street from campus. Somewhere around there would be massive.
You need to remake the OMET acronym into OMELET somehow.
How long have you lived here…?
Seems like long enough to want to make it better
As much as I love it, I think your costs are WAY too low. The Las Vegas monorail in 2004 has a $650m cost for 4 miles, roughly $162.5m per mile which would be roughly $275m per mile in today's dollars. Compare that to SunRail, which was at-grade crossing (much cheaper) using a lot of existing track (though yes, they did double line it) and it was in excess of $615 million and probably around $1b for its 32 miles, roughly $31.25m million per mile which is roughly $52m per mile today. On top of that, the Vegas Monorail takes more "back roads." Construction didn't directly occur on Las Vegas Blvd (the main drag of the Vegas Strip). If they had to do road closings, traffic rerouting, etc. on the major roads, it would be even more expensive. You can look at the I-4 work - it cost more and took longer because they didn't whole hog shut down I-4 during construction. Your plan would have major construction for many years on these roads and therefore will cost more "than average", You are estimating a 55.3 mile system at a cost of $82.8m a mile with elevated track over main roadways. I just don't see how it is only 50% more expensive than already laid track at ground level. Meanwhile, a comparable (but yet still less complex) project would cost $275m and you are only getting to $82.8m. Sorry, but I think the cost for this system is going to be closer to $15b rather than the $5b you estimated. On top of that, let's talk operating costs. Currently, SunRail operating costs are roughly $47m a year, running 20 trains per day over its now 61 mile system that runs a single line/route on 261 days per year. While it is diesel based and therefore much higher fuel costs, it has lower maintenance costs because of no electrified track and its very simple system (again, single line, at grade, very basic outdoor stations, no elevators, etc.). Ticket prices on SunRail are much higher than your proposed costs, and SunRail ticket's don't even cover the cost of handling ticketing... Meanwhile, the Maimi MetroRail had a $41.29m annual budget in 2006 for its 24.4 mile system, which would be roughly $64 million a year in today's dollars (and at a $21.14m loss, which in 2024 would be $37.6m) and while that is an elevated system, it runs adjacent to US-1 and not over it. I couldn't find data for the Las Vegas Monorail, but suffice it to say the company running it went bankrupt. I'd say the MetroRail numbers are closer to costs since it is elevated, so expect $2.6m per year per mile operating costs and at best, to recover 25%-50% via ticket sales and advertising. So budget of $143.8m with revenue of $36m to $72m, for an annual loss of $72m to $107m per year. TL/DR: Your budget of $5b is very low and probably closer to $15b plus expect an annual operating cost/loss of $72m to $107m per year.
I would love if the sunrail could start running on the weekends. “Not in the budget”
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Idealistically none as the entire system would be built over existing roadways (primarily Semorn Blvd, Church St, JYP, Vineland Rd, Universal Blvd, Westpointe Blvd, Hiawassee Rd, and 408.
There are some places that are more problematic than others. From what I know of my area (Delaney Park), you’ll run into two big issues: 1. The residents won’t want an elevated train running through their neighborhood and will fight hard. Property values will take a hit. 2. The Kaley stretch between Orange to Ferncreek/Bumby (from what I can ascertain in the map) is only a two lane road. Residential houses will need to be eminent domained to make support structures and to make a stop for the Lake Lancaster / Kaley stop. Maybe the Bumby stop too. I think these two issues will apply to any section of this train going through residential areas. Or any spot where you’re over two lane roads. There’s ways around it (use Orange Ave to 528 for airport and Semoran connectors), otherwise this will be a deeply unpopular proposal to many residents that this would negatively affect. I’m all for a robust metro system in Orlando to get cars off the roads. But in all reality, it would likely look similar to our highway grid and you’ll need a MUCH heavier investment into the Lynx bus system to get into the residential neighborhoods.
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In most places, I'd imagine you quite literally can, honestly. Most of our roads already have fairly wide medians and decently large setbacks
there are a lot of roads with honestly too many lanes as is and reclaiming them for public transit would be a very good thing
Yes you can.
You cant just elevate a train track! Meanwhile just one more lane bro: [https://www.tampa-xway.com/initiatives/completed-projects/selmon-west-extension/](https://www.tampa-xway.com/initiatives/completed-projects/selmon-west-extension/)
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Wooosh, Im saying that we already did put concrete breams in the middle of a two lane road dude. Doing it for a local metro line would be a far more effective use to move people.
Don’t try to use so much logic! They’re just popping a train up along the busiest roads, it won’t even cause 5-10 of unbearable traffic and construction!
You could also just go super deep underneath everything, but everything would need to be designed to mitigate rainwater from hurricanes
No need to wait for rain, there’s already an aquifer underground
Have you not noticed there are almost no basements in Florida? Disney wanted a basement, so they had to build the ground UP so that the basement is actually the ground floor and the ground level is actually the second story. You can’t build down.
Needs to go further North as well! Altamonte, Lake Mary, Sanford, and Mount Dora are all growing extremely rapidly. If it had a Downtown Sanford stop I would definitely take it into Orlando!
Genuinely curious, where would you get the 4.5billion to fund this?. Also, how much does this cost compare to the i4 expansion? If it’s along the same costs this would be great.
Orange County has been trying to get a .01¢ sales tax increase that would net the county around $600 million a year solely for transit improvements. Hypothetically it could also be funded by a private-public consortium similar to Vancouver’s Canada Line. I4 Ultimate (Kirkman Road north to 434) was around $2.4 billion, I4 Beyond the Ultimate (Kirkman Road south to 27 and 434 north to Howland Boulevard) is set to be about $2.2 billion. That figure doesn’t include any reworking that would be needed for the Sunshine Corridor.
The tourist dollars really should be used to contribute too. Except it’s a lobby and gets forced into things like OCCC expansion and advertising.
Occc expansion isn’t a bad thing. Having one of the best convention centers in the world is a positive lol
You lol but you’re being ignorant. It’s already one of the largest in the world and is under utilized. If it was utilized and filled with any kind of regularity maybe you’d have a leg to stand on but even with that that doesn’t mean it’s greater than bringing in more transit. It’s long been established subsidizing places like convention centers and stadiums generally has a poor ROI. Places like Mckormick Place in Chicago do well because guess what? It has transit. The tourist/service industry in Orlando is pretty big and does well. How about we grow up and make the city more attractive to higher paying jobs now. Or at least use those extra tax dollars tourism brings in and put it back through the community for the people instead right back into the tourist industry? Talk about double dipping. 🙄
What’s the rolling stock depicted here? Nice work
I need a train to Lakeland so I can commute in leisure
We already have a crappy rail transit system that doesnt serve Disney, the suburbs or places like UCF.
Disney would be on my SunRail rebuild and keeps needing too much from the county’s approval out. With the county willing to work, the 3 line (yellow) could continue down 408 towards ucf with the 1 line (red) going down to Disney but I doubt Disney would approve it https://preview.redd.it/jg9u09l3xt8d1.png?width=1619&format=png&auto=webp&s=cb58b29859cbaa62ecdcf48bb101c0fa39a1ab59
I like this a lot, being that I lived in Kissimmee for over 10 years definitely would be great to have more expansion there as well since the lack of even a proper bus route is atrocious. This is great though love what u have come up with
Just a thought here but three stops on that purple line for Titusville is a bit much. The TIX stop kind of makes sense for tourists to KSC but people are just going to get dumped out at the corner of US1 and 405 and then what? They need transportation from there to wherever. I also don’t think you need Indian River City and Titusville as stops. Combine them as one for a population that size. Sort of the same line of thinking for Sharpes and Port Saint John and combining them into one.
Oh my. 🥵🥰
I think the fact that even in your fantasies you’re designing separate train systems shows just how hopeless the transit station is here in Orlando. Why not fantasize about one cohesive train network that would *actually* serve the city?
Even NYC has separate train systems. They can't all agree to be under the same authority. It's realistic.
NYC also connects Madison square garden and Times Square via their primary subway system. Imagine being like transit to Disney in Orlando, nah I’m good
Suggested edit to this. You can create a loop by connecting Daytona Beach to DeLand. The north extension of Sunrail was supposed to open this summer, not sure if it’s on schedule.
In a perfect world yes, however that map (minus the gold and black lines) is designed to show what can be done with minimal construction (no new row has to be acquired just double tracking and building stations) it’s almost all on track that exists today
Lack of OBT/John Young/Hunter's Creek is a huge miss, otherwise I like this
This is better.
I never understood why they didn't at least look at serving UCF and the airport. Airport rail seems to be popular across the country where they have it and would probably increase ridership a ton.
Because the airport actively lobbies against it. It makes too much money on parking. It’s not the only airport in the US that does this either.
The cost alone is going to get people to say no. Numerous times, we turned down Penny sale tax increases to fund stuff.
But don’t you think that you should also be focusing on the fastest growing areas of the city? There’s nothing for the southwest area of Orlando like horizons west, Windermere, celebration, doctor Philipps, four corners. Just throwing Disney Springs in there doesn’t work. Part of the problem is none of this was conceived before all of these areas were built up on your proposed lines. So you are going to have sooo many people come out against it who don’t want a train coming through their neighborhoods. “They bring undesirables” was the argument I heard in other cities I lived. It’s sooooooooo much easier to start with this in areas that are actively being built. You can design this as a feature where people will want to live near the transit options from the get go. I know the argument of ridership numbers and profitability but those areas will be fully built up most likely by the time and transit project was ready to actually operate.
Good start. Gotta go more west, and yes, all the way south to Poinciana or Davenport.
Needs connections to Disney, UCF, Oviedo, Valencia campuses, as well as Disney, Seaworld, and Epic Universe.
I think limiting to just the orlando city limits is too much of a restriction. Not allowing easy access to college students just seems absurd for a rail system.
Needs links to Sunrail and Brightline
Yo I can actually see this!
Would be nice to see an express line from the I-drive area to MCO. I also agree that UCF should be added and that fashion square should be removed. It’s a dead mall that’s not within walking distance of many other activities/attractions. Would rather stop in Ivanhoe, or Audubon.
Lots of people live around Fashion Square Mall though. Might be a decent place to park and ride as well. I think it's a good place to have a stop.
There are also activities/restaurants close like the Milk District.
I think the park and ride is the best reasoning for the stop. Anything “walking distance” from there would be fairly unsafe (crossing heavy car centered traffic on colonial) and unpleasant (heavy noise and car pollution and mostly unshaded) to walk to.
This will never happen.
It's sad how little transit-oriented development the regional transit authority has done. Perhaps it just hasn't been able to keep up with the booming development, but it seems like the transit authority has not had good leadership. I hope that has changed.
lol
Yeah it’s all for the lolz we all know good transit here won’t happen
an overlay on google maps make these way easier to visualize. i can't really tell where the stops are here so my generic statement will be: where are the stations located and how will people access them? will i need to walk a mile to get to the nearest station and will my exit terminal be a stroad 30 minutes by foot from my final destination?
No Disney or UCF? Not practical, but good start.
Nice
This is awesome. What needs to happen to make this reality?
I'd say the red line should continue all the way down university from full sail to UCF. Also, there could be a connector along semoran to MCO.
I tried to make a transit system thingy for Orlando but it is genuinely hard. Everyone lives in suburbia so really hard to make something out of that. Yeah it could bring transit oriented development but idk. And then i kept struggling not only the station but the track itself. It cant go underground. That would end really messy because it swampy terrain. It shouldn’t go on roads because the roads are either highways disguised as stroads or just stroads. We could always do elevated but again, where are the stations and how do we make it not look absolutely wierd. And then we have to think about the people in Kissimme and Winter Garden, Sanford and all that good stuff. I was able to make a semi functional tram line from Kissimmee but i just kept struggling for the whole metro area. Then there is eminent domain. No one will give up their suburban house or suburban neighborhood for a train that will be useless unless you live directly next to it. I like your iniative though. There just isn’t political will and it’s honestly something that we need to fight for. Without a functional transit system, the metro area will keep expanding to a point of no return. Its genuinely sad. Its like the train morality thing where you could pull a lever and kill one person or kill 5 people to save that one person. We could tear one family’s home and help multiple families with this train. WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO COMPLICATED!!!
This is beautiful! Perhaps in 100 years the US can learn to invest in mass transit.
I’d support anything that lets me get from Baldwin Park to Downtown or Universal without driving. Hopefully someone that can make this comes to Reddit for ideas lol
Amazing work but good luck getting FL to do something that benefits the general public. I wish.
Protect this man at all cost
The problem with mass transit in Orlando, as I see it, is that Orlando is built more out than up. We don’t have many large, highly saturated areas meaning wherever your stations are, most people would still have quite a commute, by foot or others means of transport, to get to their final destinations. It just isn’t practical for most people. How do you overcome this and make the rails viable for mass transit to justify spending $4B? To be clear, I’m genuinely curious and not just trying to pick at it. You put a lot of time and effort into this and I’m impressed so seriously would like your feedback on the practicality problem.
You’d have my vote. As others suggested, linking to UCF would be the cherry on top, but I know the area between Baldwin Park and campus may not lend itself to that
I dig it. Especially being someone who resists driving except when absolutely necessary. One correction at first glance: \*Thornton\* Park.
You need a train that can get UCF kids to downtown and to Disney
Now all you need is $2 billion
Damn no rail for me
Leaving out Horizon West has me sad.
https://preview.redd.it/24l8ki88y39d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f84503ca0106035a5f5b954e283a14a22b45493d
I wish
man, something like this would be a dream come true.
I like it. Let’s build it
As an everyday Sunrail rider, I approve. Daily train usage has improved my life tremendously.
How about adding in a line that is a beltway? A blue line for instance. It would be able to cover Sanford, Apopka, Clermont/ winter garden, four corners, champions gate, celebration/ WDW, Kissimmee , lake Nona , Waterford lakes, UCF, Oviedo, and back to Sanford . Run it clockwise and counter clockwise And connect with the three lines you already developed.
As others have mentioned, it desperately needs a connection to the Milk District, Union Park, Research Park, and UCF proper - and probably could get approval from Seminole County to stretch that line further north up a bit to Oviedo. I'd also posit have a line running north up to Winter Park, then probably also Maitland, Altamonte, Casselberry, Longwood, Sanford, and Lake Mary. There are a shitton of people who commute to and from there daily for work, it'd be used. I myself would be practically daily using the connection from UCF back towards downtown, to then hop a connection onto the line to Sanford for work. But, even beyond personal use, Lake Mary has around 7.5x the town's population that actually work there (town did some wack crap for zoning), so that line would become insanely useful for commuters going to and from work daily
This would be a reality today if petty political bickering hadn’t kept Disney from putting in a monorail system all over central Florida
If this is ever proposed, they can convert some of the lanes on the expressway on i4 for this. Maybe even shrink the excess lanes
It'll never happen. Republicans always vote against public transit. Until Florida consistently votes blue, it's never going to happen.
Certainly not with that attitude. "Be the change you want to see."
Now if only we had a government who invested in things that would actually benefit people
Or maybe even voters that would vote for the penny sales tax to work on initiatives like this.
While it is a neat idea and Orlando is one of the few cities in the US where some type of rail system could make sense (for the tourists at least), the actual costs of something like this make it unrealistic. You've underestimated initial costs by a factor of, at least, 2-3x. Not to mention the amount of funding that would be required to fund the annual losses of the system.
https://preview.redd.it/s9lakjjeyx8d1.jpeg?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3f8109e8c68de27b4db8e0ab49b124c4d56ad11
That would not work u are missing areas that are low income that can use this transport allot more!!! Hell u have it going to only one collages what about UCF??? Then you only have it stopping at the dead mall that’s about to close and tore down!!! What about stopping on international drive you know how many tourist would use the train to get around where they cause most traffic and accidents since they don’t know where they are going
Literally like 90% of his west Orlando transit rails are in the most low income areas in the city??? If you’re going to complain about tourist attraction stops don’t bring that ridiculous statement into your argument 😂😂 at the most you could argue for more stops/railing in the northwest pine hills area as it is a very big area to cover
UCF, that one I’ll agree with, bring it down 408 to Alafaya then into UCF. For I-Drive it could come down but it would have to end at destinations parkway since adding fourth rail and linear induction pads would close the sunshine corridor SunRail/Brightline line for an extended period of time. Plus bringing transit to a space that’s about to be redeveloped would allow for transit oriented development and establish a blueprint for what new communities could look like.
Is OP from New York? No one is asking for this. I'd like more flyovers, not trains. GTFOH with this bullshit. It is going to fail. No one is going to use it. Seems like a money grab of tax payer dollars down the drain.
Just one more lane. Then traffic will be fixed, just one more.
> Just one more lane. Then traffic will be fixed, just one more. lol... honestly, the flyover on semoran and colonial is so sweet, you have to admit that ;) Prior to that flyover, that intersection was from hell.
The biggest problem is residents don’t want train tracks next to their houses because they are loud.. The eminent domain costs alone to build rail here in Orlando would be MASSIVE. Also elevated train tracks is around $150m per mile. Orlando’s only real shot at transit like this would be monorail due to safety and noise
Modern, automated "light metro" systems like in Vancouver and the new line in Montreal are significantly more quiet than freeways or old wood tracks like in Chicago or NYC, which are so old that they predate underground tunneling techniques and are considered heavy metro. In addition, using rubber tires can help with quieter systems, similar to the APMs at MCO.
Loud railways opposed to the famously silent and unobtrusive expressways choking our city
People deal with expressways and can deal with trains the same way.
CFX could probably do this on the 408 within their R/W (but probably won’t 🫠)
55 miles for a billion dollars (after nepotism, overruns and general corruption)? Have you considered a job in government? In all seriousness, it’s a great idea. I’d add that instead of using rebar-enforced elevated concrete, just get a roller coaster company to build straight track. It’s just tubular steel packed with sand and welded to more tubular steel. Make them build it at a reasonable price. We’re not Disney World. Put in a post every 1 football field. Grainger industrial supply for sensors and motors. Theoretical top speed given infinite mass is the speed of light (meaning the thing staying on the tracks is not a concern). You could even include individually routed trains pre-dispatched for specific riders if you wanted to go all Dubai with it. Done.
BUILD IT NOW RAHHHHHH 🦅🦅🦅🚊🚊🚊🚊🚊
just stop with all the fake and make a wish public transport! its not happening!!!!LET IT GO!