They're mentally unable to break out of their self imposed stasis lock on their own life. You can hard lock yourself into a dopamine loop along with the habitual security of performing the same action looking for a reward.
Some are resilient to this or have different motives (extreme end of the 1% for competitiveness) but there is nothing new, original or fresh with this game. The inability to find joy in new experiences or self enslaving ones self to perform the same repetitive functions on loop with no hope of breaking out is incredibly disgusting.
Undoubtedly the lost will find this judgmental or insulting. Unable to lift themselves out of their own addiction and bare witness to how their own lives are wasted on a game whose only quality is its repetitiveness. Ultimately the world doesn't care, continues spinning, along with the seconds of their addiction afflicted lives. Tick tock tick tock tick tock...
>Several user posts on the purported Vanguard issues have also been shared to the main *League* subreddit but they have since been deleted.
Of course they have.
Damn, they are really consistent with their launcher, that launcher was shit back in 2010 too. I thought they would update it at some point because the game was sort of in an early phase.
Did they patch the KONAMI code that people used when there was a queue?
https://twitter.com/ItsGamerDoc/status/1786113515670962505
This is the kind of "players" saying league is bricking their pcs.
TLDR: cheaters making a group commotion online to get vanguard removed rom league,just like they tried with valorant.
If you realize most people complaining use the exact same wording and they are all an "IT analyst" or "works security"
to be fair i think its very hard to find someone who works in low level systems languages or security who thinks riot vanguard is something they should be running on their computer. (tbh most people in security literally CANT run riots new client because its windows only)
What this guy said. It's hilarious that Riot is branding anyone who has an issue with their ridiculously invasive anti cheat as a cheater.
And screenshotting posts made by 14 year olds as evidence.
i think people just dont want to stop playing league or w/e so they just defend it without knowing anything on the topic.
even if RIOT didnt have a history of being hacked and lying about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
with this law existing im very shocked that riot isnt going to way of huawei / tiktok and getting forced to sell or be banned yet
I uninstalled the game instead of updating because I don't want what is effectively kernal level spyware on my pc.
I voiced my discontent on a r/leagueoflegends post by some user in response to Riot's answers regarding Vanguard and it failing to work.
I wasn't rude. I didn't break any subreddit rules. I was permabanned from r/leagueoflegends, which really doesn't mean much if I'm quitting the game, but it's still somewhat insulting that my post which followed all the rules got me banned from the sub permanently without any reason why.
on par with game subreddits where the head mod either works for the company or is affiliated ($$$) somehow. totally defeats the purpose of having a subreddit in the first place
It's against Reddit global rules for moderators to be employees. But that never happens of course since this entire site is corrupt. Also, Tencent owns a large stake of Reddit. And Tencent owns Riot Games. The whole thing is corrupt from the top down.
Yeah I really doubt those rules are enforced. The creator of https://www.reddit.com/r/TeamfightTactics/ for example is definitely riot affiliated as you can tell by their flair. Companies should never in any way influence or meddle with public community driven and moderated forums.
Are you sure that's a rule? Because any company can very easy claim and take control of a sub with their name at any time, no matter how old the sub is.
Doesn't really make sense to let them do that if they can't also mod it themselves
If they wanted to have a say in what people could or could not say about their game, they shouldn't have gotten rid of their own forums years ago. It's bullshit that they have any say whatsoever.
ya, I remember when Valorant was officially revealed and how a riot employee had already taken the sub name and reserved it to give to the league subreddit mods... they even forced out a fanmade valorant subreddit for the riot approved one.
and they did that with basically all the riot subreddits.
I [got banned](https://www.reddit.com/r/League_Of_Legends_/comments/1cilunh/is_the_main_subreddit_censoring_issues_with/) for just quoting someone having issues.
please be sure to report any *harassment* by *anyone to include mods* to reddit admins.
Even if nothing comes of it, enough reports might cause headache for those acting against you
https://www.reddit.com/report
I also got instantly perma banned from the sub because I replied to a post about wanting league classic after the chronoshift situation. They called it "brigading", as if it has nothing to do with league.
The league subreddit hasn't been unbiased in years if ever. It's run as if it's Riots official forums and overly zealous even at that.
I uninstalled anything Riot a few years ago and won't be back. I don't care if their MMO ends up being the best game ever made the company itself is a cult and I won't support them.
It really doesn’t make a difference from thag perspective. If you give asmin consent when installing it then they can collect everything useful just as easy.
People who don’t know anything really exaggerate how kntrusive kernel-level software is from a privacy perspective.
There are other valid reasons to dislike it, such as it affecting other applications, but privacy is a non-issue compared to non-kernel software.
hell, it's an always online game why the fuck would they need your permission to collect data, nearly all actions are already passing through their servers.
> hell, it's an always online game why the fuck would they need your permission to collect data, nearly all actions are already passing through their servers.
the whole point of people not wanting to give ring-0 access to a machine is because it exposes everything thats out of process, AKA everything that isnt going through their servers.
its the same reason no one cares when facebook tracks what you search on facebook, but once facebook gets caught tracking what youre doing on netflix it immediately gets brought to the federal court.
OS level admin is different than ring 0 access. Windows OS admin typically operates at level 1 or even sometimes 2. Giving something that is either poorly written or malicious ring 0 access can wreak havoc on a complex system.
Riot is very well known for both poorly writing code or lazily leaving things in that should have been culled. The “spaghetti code” meme popular in the community. Given the memes I have also seen in the Valorant community, I think it is also relatively safe to assume that Vanguard is ineffective in stopping cheating.
My personal opinion is that Vanguard is a “for the kids” ploy. As in, the very effective ploy often put through by political parties to expand their own power or ideology. Anytime they want something, they can play on your sympathies “for the kids” to get you to vote in that tax or ban that thing. Riot, however, is probably going to use it to harvest metadata constantly to either market more effectively or as an additional revenue stream for Tencent.
If the product is free, you are the product.
The spaghetti code meme comes from tech debt, though. That's really common in constantly updated games that last 10 years. The Valorant community overwhelmingly tells me that Vanguard is the only effective anticheat on the market. The product is free because it's a f2p model what the fuck are you talking about? They sell unregulated lootbox gambling like every other predatory f2p model. You've lost it.
The reason to be worried about Vanguard isn't "Riot collecting your data and selling it to China" that's honestly really dumb. The reason to be worried is some inevitable exploit/vuln that lets some group do that. It's not even because Riot in particular is bad at writing code or anything.
And yet it does not matter for the supposed privacy risk of it spying on people. You don't need kernel level access to read practically everything on the system. Hell you do not need admin rights either for 90% of the content on your PC.
A normal user can absolutely read everything in that users documents directory. Which also hosts say %appdata%, which is where stuff like your browser history etc. is stored.
You can absolutely fuck over a system completely to the point that a clean install would be required without kernel-level software. Also all personal information is just as accessible in Ring 1 as Ring 0.
From a privacy perspective kernel-level is a non-issue.
A vast majority of users have several kernel level softwares installed without knowing it.
It's not about data. Everyone spies on us already.
It's about highest level access at all times unless you turn it off (Tho as far as I am aware driver itself is always active).
It doesn't just run when the game runs, like Easy AntiCheat (tho that;s crap too).
Their mod team just called people voicing their concerns "downvote bots" on the latest Riot update post [where they claim that only 0.3% of the players got their pcs bricked btw.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1civ4l7/update_from_riot_on_vanguard/)
0.03% rather than 0.3%. And that's for players reporting issues, not for players reporting that their PCs are fucking bricked lmao.
I don't give a shit about league or vanguard but you make legitimate complainers make worse when you lie like a fucking clown
That site must have a very loose definition of kernel-level. You don't even need a PC restart to run half of those anti-cheats listed and some like EAC can be bypassed by a .dll file...
What are you talking about? A ".dll" file can literally be anything. No decent anticheat can be "universally" bypassed by you googling and downloading some ".dll" file, certainly not EAC.
You can of course write your own custom bypass, that can be a ".dll" file if you wish to, to bypass any anticheat given that you know ofc an exploit of the anticheat's logic to bypass it to begin with. That is just called hacking..
If you try to write a bypass by copying code from some "public" bypass, that won't last long as the core logic is usually detected by now so you'd be able to game for between few hours to few days and then it would be detected anyway.
Huh, I am surprisingly clean. I've only really played maybe three of those and none currently, the most recent being Elden Ring. Maybe I am too dumb to notice cheaters but the online games I do play don't really seem to have (m)any. Bots, sure.
I'm so confident in the fact that my ban was unwarranted, I'll even post what I said on the subreddit:
> I am not installing kernel level spyware on my computer. I literally uninstalled my game, cancelled all the subscription services to 3rd party tools, and unsubbed from any media creator that plays League.
>Why you would force literal spyware that has to run 24/7 in the background at the kernel level on players is beyond me, but League of Legends game isn't worth it.
>The real issue here is that Riot and the moderators of this sub are actively suppressing knowledge of the fact that this is effectively spyware. There is no reason for any game to have 24/7 access to your personal system.
>It really annoys me. I've been playing since just after beta and I've spent thousands on this game over the years. I loved league. It was the game I could always come back to when there was nothing else to do or when I wanted to compete against other players. It always scratched that competitive itch.
>As long as kernel level spyware is being forced upon players, I won't be playing this game or supporting it.
I was then gaslit until they muted me.
Ban notice and clarification request turning into me being gaslit: https://ibb.co/tKW7WBR
https://ibb.co/F8ZrCYK
It is evident they are looking for me to get angry or make some other mistake to justify the ban, but I never gave them one only asking for clarification by pointing to exactly what I said that was against the rules. They promptly ignored that request and muted me.
I reported it to Reddit itself as harassment, because that's exactly what it is, but I doubt anything will come of it. It doesn't super matter because as long as league of legends has vanguard, I'm not playing it and therefor have no reason to comment on that community, but whatever.
Edit: Downvoted for exposing clear mod abuse lol. Never change reddit.
All my friends said they'd never install a game with this kind of always-running kernel-level anti-cheat. Can't wait to for them all to 180 and justify keeping their addiction installed.
I remember in the early days of cell phones and people were actually concerned about location tracking. Now it's like "here is my unlimited location, file access, microphone, camera, network permission to 100 different Chinese Candy Crush clones that let me play 3 minutes between ads" and the wireless carrier sells your location to police for like $1 and everyone thinks it's great. And leaving your phone at home won't even help for much longer as modern cars are just as bad.
A lot of cheats in Dota can be detected by AI without problems. I haven't played LoL in a decade but I doubt it is much different.
In WoW bots used to get on mines always the same way - on top of it under an angle. There is no way players to do this 100 times in a row. How hard is it to detect this?! Aim bots shouldn't be hard to be detected too.
When I tried valorant years ago I had to use third party software to remove vanguard from my Pc. It caused so many performance issues until it was removed
A game needing secureboot is absolutely insane
Secureboot is the one setting in bios that can potentially brick your machine if you mess it up
Also, secureboot just ensures that only signed code can run before the os has booted up. I can just sign code myself and enroll that key into the motherboard to run it
Riot can only verify that the boot chain is "not tampered with" if they also have some form of control over the keys enrolled in your machine.
Only the main lol sub is suppressing it, other subs and social media are full of people complaining about various issues, though it may have died out a bit because people are tired of complaining or have found work around to the issues.
Dont flatter yourself.
Most people dont even know how much RAM their computer has. League has millions of players world wide. A vast majority of them wont even know what Kernel means in this context.
True, but those that do should be concerned. Also, the world is becoming more and more technologically adapt. There is a large portion of it that does know and those people are sharing/voicing their concerns. Doing so could have an affect.
Why should I just sit by knowing how crap it is to be forced into quitting the game or giving them access to such a deep level of authority at all times?
> Also, the world is becoming more and more technologically adapt
Ive got some bad news for you here. This is absolutely NOT the case.
We thought that would happen, but if you look at kids in high school and entering college right now, technological knowledge is exceptionally low. There are people going into CS courses in college right now that dont know how to access files on their PC because they are so used to technology being plug and play easy to use.
Im not telling you what you should or shouldnt do. Im simply saying that its foolish to think a majority of people are going to understand, let alone care, like you implied in your original post.
Yeah this exactly lol.
Smartphones and Tablets dumbed down peoples knowledge of PC's considerably since they are just super easy to operate and require almost no thought given to it.
Heck as someone who basically does tech support for all my friends and sometimes others im shocked as to how many people don't even know what a zip/rar file is.
Also there was a quote (can't exactly remember it) that was very true it goes something like this:
The people who are using the smartphones aren't actually smart but the guy who invented it and made sure everyone understands it is a genius.
And i definitely agree huge respect for making such an intuitively useable device (and OS) but unfortunately that also led to what you just described.
Not just smartphones and tablets, but even OS design has been shifting into hiding things under the hood more and more. Every new windows update I'm finding that it is more difficult to access or adjust system options/functionality that I previously had straightforward access to. In some instances those options have just been completely removed. UI has moved people further and further away from being able to conceptualize the architecture of a computer system. I read that with the new League of Legends update, you can't even launch the game from the .exe, so consistency of file behavior is not even maintained (shortcuts are also affected by this).
All this to say that it seems like even beyond "streamlining" the user experience, it seems like computer functionality is being deliberately obfuscated away from users. My personal opinion is that this is being done to instill dependency in users. Sort of like how car companies have been gradually making it more difficult to have access to the resources and capability of repairing and maintaining your own vehicle, you have to "take it to the dealer" to get it diagnosed and worked on. I've had friends who had something go wrong with a desktop and say "I'm just going to buy a new one" without even really attempting to troubleshoot or solve the issue. THAT is the dream reaction for these corporate controllers.
I prefer that the spyware actually serves a purpose, such as catching cheaters. I hate to break it to you, but you use 20 different forms of spyware every single day, and you get *nothing* from them.
From what I'm seeing, the regular consumer will 100% care when they need to change specific BIOS settings because their pc can't boot up... yeah that's a little bit hard to ignore even for the regular consumer lil bro.
Vast majority of PC users will freeze if they see a BIOS screen. Pay $200 for Geek Squad to change a setting maybe, but more likely throw it in the trash.
Big truth, unfortunately LOL goes a step further by always being on and requiring a pc reboot if disabled to play the game. To say they are the same would just be wrong.
So don’t play any multiplayer games ever? Basically all of the major anti cheats have kernel access.
The difference is that Vanguard runs at all times, but the others still access it when the game runs.
Not even just multiplayer games. Denuvo is also kernel level, including most cracks because they don't actually remove Denuvo and just bypass it.
Most people don't understand just how much software already uses the kernel level
And that is the problem.
It runs at all times, even when not playing.
I don’t remember any other anti cheat that had to be initiated with boot up at all times.
I’m not gonna let that stuff run on my pc.
Depends on the design of the game. If the zero trust is assumed with the client, anti-cheat would reside on the server only. This won't work for FPS games though.
My main concern is that games can have exploits such as chat encoding, custom decals etc that could bomb the client. If the client is running in the kernel, an actor could root the machine.
If you are so worried about games messing with your kernel you better not be playing any of these games:
* Apex Legends (EAC)
* Fortnite (EAC)
* Paladins (EAC)
* Player Unknown: Battlegrounds (BE)
* Rainbow Six: Siege (BE)
* Planetside 2 (BE)
* H1Z1 (BE)
* Day-Z (BE)
* Ark Survival Evolved (BE)
* Dead by Daylight (EAC)
* For Honor (EAC)
[And so many more games](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/)
Or is it only a problem to you when it's Riot?
Valorant is without a doubt the only successful game when it comes to battling cheaters on the market right now.
You do run into cheaters every now and then still though but if you compare it to every other big game out there it's a night and day difference.
And then you have people ask why Vanguard is the only one that requires it be on from startup to game session.
It's such an obvious security gap that vanguard closes.
Like yeah it's annoying as hell to reboot to start vanguard but if you're going to let this thing on your machine it should actually stop cheaters.
Pretty sure the only big multiplayer games that don't use kernel level anti-cheat are Valve games, as VAC is the only mainstream anti-cheat I can think of that isn't kernel level. And unfortunately, VAC is awful at stopping cheaters. There's a reason why FACEIT (third party matchmaking high end cs players use a lot) requires you to install their own anti-cheat.
Edit: Apparently Blizzard also has a VAC-like anti-cheat called Warden, but it apparently doesn't work well either. I'd assume we'd hear a lot more of complaining about overwatch cheating if that game had a bigger focus on aiming.
The only people who are not fine with Vanguard are terminally online pcgaming subreddit users, who are not playing the game, neither were interesting in playing this game, but their hivemind told them to shit on Riot games and Blizzard on every possible occasion.
which one of those have to have the anti cheat running 24/7 even if the game doesnt run?
which one of those can screenshot the users desktop?
there are clear distinctions to be made here.
Ha, jokes on you. I don't play those games for the same reason
that said, which of these starts when you start your pc? Which of these runs 24/7 in the background when you aren't even running the game?
Done! Sweet, but yeah a company owned by Tencent, who actively contributes to technology monitoring and policing the people in China, SHOULD probably at least cause a consumer to ask themselves if they find it worthwhile.
Permitting Kernel level access to a company that actively demands that of people they help monitor at a state level is... reasonably questionable.
No. I don't like FPS so I haven't played nor even had any inclination to ever play these.
> Or is it only a problem to you when it's Riot?
Is this really an argument when their client it's a 10 years old piece of shit that has never worked properly and they had a data leak 4 months ago?
Yes even if it only was a problem because Rito does it that's perfectly valid considering how dogwater they are at tech support.
None of those have a history of regularly of sabotaging people's hardware and breaking operating systems.
Most people care about that, not the "spyware". I installed it, and it immediately informed me it was blocking a driver that on examination is widely used for controlling peripheral hardware by some apps, specifically fans.
Good thing i was not actually using it, or i would have a computer with no working cooling system.
Basically all modern AC tools are on kernel level because otherwise they are useless. Hacks work on kernel level so have the AC tools.
And also why not play a game with a AC kernel level? It’s not messing around there lol
Because addiction and laziness. Same happened to me, but I have really stopped caring. They can see my ahole if that lets me play the game, obv joke, but also not really..
If you went through the list of games that have kernel level access anticheat, you would be changing your question really quickly to "Why would anyone play multi-player games?"
don't worry everyone, Riot just released their PR on /r/leagueoflegends and apparently everyone with an issue was actually lying and all it well with Vanguard!
legit the damage control post on there is next level, using a "see only 0.03% of players reported an issue with the game" acting as if people actually report issues using the official channels for any game and don't just google for a solution.
Can't confirm it 100% but I lost my last instance of Windows after Valorant crashed and corrupted it far beyond recovery. Never had any other game do anything even remotely similar, so I blame Vanguard lmao
It might be, there is currently a thread on /r/leagueoflegends from a dev offering troubleshooting for a variety of issues (although basically all of the problems don't seem to be bricking computers)
Interesting that the DRM is undoing the bypass instead of just preventing the game from connecting to any servers while TPM is inactive (and displaying an appropriate error explaining what the issue is that's keeping you from connecting to the game servers).
If this is indeed what is happening, then that is *incredibly dumb* and justifies boycotting the game.
It is supposed to do this and give a VAN9001 error. LS has a singular person do all of his PC stuff, not sure what that guy did specifically but if this is happening on all of his computers and almost no one else, then I'd put the blame on the guy doing something weird when setting up the machines.
Considering that the only way to install windows 11 without a valid TPM 2.0 module is using a modified iso, yeah that's on the dude.
Also just in case, microsoft went back on their word a year or two ago and allowed older systems as long as they had a valid module instead of having an arbitrary cutoff at skylake.
I uninstalled the game long ago, but most of LoL players have a potato pc, like 4gb ram , dual core cpu. Now they can rest by force 😂. Go play good games instead this crap
Got a brand new PC a while back, never installed LoL or Valorant up until last week. After downloading Valorant, Riot’s insane Vanguard tells me to boot my system in secure mode. Why? Just why?
Downloaded it and nothing bad so far. My biggest worry was not china spying on me but riot duct taping it onto the worst made client in existence. I don't doubt there's pc fuckery happening to people and riot is trying to hide it.
i feel bad for the devs a lil bit because u know they gotta deal with all the bashings and hate from the community but all they can realistically do is just pump out PR responses
Thought I was in /r/personalfinance lol
Not seeing “buy VOO” as the top comment should’ve been the giveaway
Should I invest in VTI or VOO? What about international exposure? VXUS?
\*Looks at investment account\* Well now I feel called out.
Person 1: VOO Person 2: no VTI for small cap exposure.
That threw me for a loop when I saw a post about Vanguard installing a rootkit. I'm subbed to r/Bogleheads.
The Blackrock Clan is behind this all, Uther. They sacrificed the villagers!
So glad I went with Schwab instead
Not that it will stop LOL gamers they’ll just buy new PC’s
I didn’t even install the update. Just uninstalled all rito shit.
They're mentally unable to break out of their self imposed stasis lock on their own life. You can hard lock yourself into a dopamine loop along with the habitual security of performing the same action looking for a reward. Some are resilient to this or have different motives (extreme end of the 1% for competitiveness) but there is nothing new, original or fresh with this game. The inability to find joy in new experiences or self enslaving ones self to perform the same repetitive functions on loop with no hope of breaking out is incredibly disgusting. Undoubtedly the lost will find this judgmental or insulting. Unable to lift themselves out of their own addiction and bare witness to how their own lives are wasted on a game whose only quality is its repetitiveness. Ultimately the world doesn't care, continues spinning, along with the seconds of their addiction afflicted lives. Tick tock tick tock tick tock...
why you monologuing Dr. Lecter
Word salad
Also no longer allows Linux for the small amount of ppl who played LoL while being Linux Gamers
I have a friend who played League on his Steam Deck. Sadly that’s history now.
>Several user posts on the purported Vanguard issues have also been shared to the main *League* subreddit but they have since been deleted. Of course they have.
Couldn’t happen to a better group of gamers
Hey, we tft gamers have to use the same shitty launcher.
Yeah, rip TFT :(
can still play the mobile version
Yea, but if you take it seriously, it's impossible to do roll downs. The game runs awful (less than 30fps even on an m1 ipad)
Which is why you run it on Bluestacks (sadly, better emulators cannot run the game for me) instead of your phone.
Damn, they are really consistent with their launcher, that launcher was shit back in 2010 too. I thought they would update it at some point because the game was sort of in an early phase. Did they patch the KONAMI code that people used when there was a queue?
Yeah… I went from playing a LOT to recycling bin
Aw come on man. I'm pretty sure 90% of LoL demographics are kids who are too poor to buy better games/better gaming PC. I was one.
The kids grew up. Game was massive since 2012. If they were teens back then they would already be in the workforce.
https://twitter.com/ItsGamerDoc/status/1786113515670962505 This is the kind of "players" saying league is bricking their pcs. TLDR: cheaters making a group commotion online to get vanguard removed rom league,just like they tried with valorant. If you realize most people complaining use the exact same wording and they are all an "IT analyst" or "works security"
to be fair i think its very hard to find someone who works in low level systems languages or security who thinks riot vanguard is something they should be running on their computer. (tbh most people in security literally CANT run riots new client because its windows only)
What this guy said. It's hilarious that Riot is branding anyone who has an issue with their ridiculously invasive anti cheat as a cheater. And screenshotting posts made by 14 year olds as evidence.
i think people just dont want to stop playing league or w/e so they just defend it without knowing anything on the topic. even if RIOT didnt have a history of being hacked and lying about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China with this law existing im very shocked that riot isnt going to way of huawei / tiktok and getting forced to sell or be banned yet
I uninstalled the game instead of updating because I don't want what is effectively kernal level spyware on my pc. I voiced my discontent on a r/leagueoflegends post by some user in response to Riot's answers regarding Vanguard and it failing to work. I wasn't rude. I didn't break any subreddit rules. I was permabanned from r/leagueoflegends, which really doesn't mean much if I'm quitting the game, but it's still somewhat insulting that my post which followed all the rules got me banned from the sub permanently without any reason why.
Sounds about right for that dogshit sub
on par with game subreddits where the head mod either works for the company or is affiliated ($$$) somehow. totally defeats the purpose of having a subreddit in the first place
It's against Reddit global rules for moderators to be employees. But that never happens of course since this entire site is corrupt. Also, Tencent owns a large stake of Reddit. And Tencent owns Riot Games. The whole thing is corrupt from the top down.
Yeah I really doubt those rules are enforced. The creator of https://www.reddit.com/r/TeamfightTactics/ for example is definitely riot affiliated as you can tell by their flair. Companies should never in any way influence or meddle with public community driven and moderated forums.
/r/ecobee is run by employees of Ecobee, I know this because I gave the subreddit to them
Are you sure that's a rule? Because any company can very easy claim and take control of a sub with their name at any time, no matter how old the sub is. Doesn't really make sense to let them do that if they can't also mod it themselves
If they wanted to have a say in what people could or could not say about their game, they shouldn't have gotten rid of their own forums years ago. It's bullshit that they have any say whatsoever.
ya, I remember when Valorant was officially revealed and how a riot employee had already taken the sub name and reserved it to give to the league subreddit mods... they even forced out a fanmade valorant subreddit for the riot approved one. and they did that with basically all the riot subreddits.
There are several such people in this thread. They might as well be threat actors.
I [got banned](https://www.reddit.com/r/League_Of_Legends_/comments/1cilunh/is_the_main_subreddit_censoring_issues_with/) for just quoting someone having issues.
please be sure to report any *harassment* by *anyone to include mods* to reddit admins. Even if nothing comes of it, enough reports might cause headache for those acting against you https://www.reddit.com/report
Damn
I also got instantly perma banned from the sub because I replied to a post about wanting league classic after the chronoshift situation. They called it "brigading", as if it has nothing to do with league.
The league subreddit hasn't been unbiased in years if ever. It's run as if it's Riots official forums and overly zealous even at that. I uninstalled anything Riot a few years ago and won't be back. I don't care if their MMO ends up being the best game ever made the company itself is a cult and I won't support them.
Made a single comment asking why every critical comment was getting removed and they banned me,
If Riot wanted your data, they wouldn't need kernel level access to get it.
Not that it hurts or anything
It really doesn’t make a difference from thag perspective. If you give asmin consent when installing it then they can collect everything useful just as easy. People who don’t know anything really exaggerate how kntrusive kernel-level software is from a privacy perspective. There are other valid reasons to dislike it, such as it affecting other applications, but privacy is a non-issue compared to non-kernel software.
hell, it's an always online game why the fuck would they need your permission to collect data, nearly all actions are already passing through their servers.
> hell, it's an always online game why the fuck would they need your permission to collect data, nearly all actions are already passing through their servers. the whole point of people not wanting to give ring-0 access to a machine is because it exposes everything thats out of process, AKA everything that isnt going through their servers. its the same reason no one cares when facebook tracks what you search on facebook, but once facebook gets caught tracking what youre doing on netflix it immediately gets brought to the federal court.
OS level admin is different than ring 0 access. Windows OS admin typically operates at level 1 or even sometimes 2. Giving something that is either poorly written or malicious ring 0 access can wreak havoc on a complex system. Riot is very well known for both poorly writing code or lazily leaving things in that should have been culled. The “spaghetti code” meme popular in the community. Given the memes I have also seen in the Valorant community, I think it is also relatively safe to assume that Vanguard is ineffective in stopping cheating. My personal opinion is that Vanguard is a “for the kids” ploy. As in, the very effective ploy often put through by political parties to expand their own power or ideology. Anytime they want something, they can play on your sympathies “for the kids” to get you to vote in that tax or ban that thing. Riot, however, is probably going to use it to harvest metadata constantly to either market more effectively or as an additional revenue stream for Tencent. If the product is free, you are the product.
The spaghetti code meme comes from tech debt, though. That's really common in constantly updated games that last 10 years. The Valorant community overwhelmingly tells me that Vanguard is the only effective anticheat on the market. The product is free because it's a f2p model what the fuck are you talking about? They sell unregulated lootbox gambling like every other predatory f2p model. You've lost it. The reason to be worried about Vanguard isn't "Riot collecting your data and selling it to China" that's honestly really dumb. The reason to be worried is some inevitable exploit/vuln that lets some group do that. It's not even because Riot in particular is bad at writing code or anything.
And yet it does not matter for the supposed privacy risk of it spying on people. You don't need kernel level access to read practically everything on the system. Hell you do not need admin rights either for 90% of the content on your PC. A normal user can absolutely read everything in that users documents directory. Which also hosts say %appdata%, which is where stuff like your browser history etc. is stored.
You can absolutely fuck over a system completely to the point that a clean install would be required without kernel-level software. Also all personal information is just as accessible in Ring 1 as Ring 0. From a privacy perspective kernel-level is a non-issue. A vast majority of users have several kernel level softwares installed without knowing it.
It's not about data. Everyone spies on us already. It's about highest level access at all times unless you turn it off (Tho as far as I am aware driver itself is always active). It doesn't just run when the game runs, like Easy AntiCheat (tho that;s crap too).
Their mod team just called people voicing their concerns "downvote bots" on the latest Riot update post [where they claim that only 0.3% of the players got their pcs bricked btw.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1civ4l7/update_from_riot_on_vanguard/)
0.03% rather than 0.3%. And that's for players reporting issues, not for players reporting that their PCs are fucking bricked lmao. I don't give a shit about league or vanguard but you make legitimate complainers make worse when you lie like a fucking clown
Come play dota
every popular game with kernel-level anti-cheat https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/
That site must have a very loose definition of kernel-level. You don't even need a PC restart to run half of those anti-cheats listed and some like EAC can be bypassed by a .dll file...
Because few of them take a snapshot of your drivers on startup like Vanguard. Doesn't change they're still kernel level.
I guess but if admin priv is all something needs to be considered "kernel level" people are in for an awakening lol
"Kernel level" requires a kernel level driver, which is what all of these ACs use.
What are you talking about? A ".dll" file can literally be anything. No decent anticheat can be "universally" bypassed by you googling and downloading some ".dll" file, certainly not EAC. You can of course write your own custom bypass, that can be a ".dll" file if you wish to, to bypass any anticheat given that you know ofc an exploit of the anticheat's logic to bypass it to begin with. That is just called hacking.. If you try to write a bypass by copying code from some "public" bypass, that won't last long as the core logic is usually detected by now so you'd be able to game for between few hours to few days and then it would be detected anyway.
Correct, but Vanguard is extremely intrusive and doesn't close when the game does.
Huh, I am surprisingly clean. I've only really played maybe three of those and none currently, the most recent being Elden Ring. Maybe I am too dumb to notice cheaters but the online games I do play don't really seem to have (m)any. Bots, sure.
Same https://ibb.co/CWwCDw8 https://ibb.co/whf5mbz
I'm so confident in the fact that my ban was unwarranted, I'll even post what I said on the subreddit: > I am not installing kernel level spyware on my computer. I literally uninstalled my game, cancelled all the subscription services to 3rd party tools, and unsubbed from any media creator that plays League. >Why you would force literal spyware that has to run 24/7 in the background at the kernel level on players is beyond me, but League of Legends game isn't worth it. >The real issue here is that Riot and the moderators of this sub are actively suppressing knowledge of the fact that this is effectively spyware. There is no reason for any game to have 24/7 access to your personal system. >It really annoys me. I've been playing since just after beta and I've spent thousands on this game over the years. I loved league. It was the game I could always come back to when there was nothing else to do or when I wanted to compete against other players. It always scratched that competitive itch. >As long as kernel level spyware is being forced upon players, I won't be playing this game or supporting it. I was then gaslit until they muted me. Ban notice and clarification request turning into me being gaslit: https://ibb.co/tKW7WBR https://ibb.co/F8ZrCYK It is evident they are looking for me to get angry or make some other mistake to justify the ban, but I never gave them one only asking for clarification by pointing to exactly what I said that was against the rules. They promptly ignored that request and muted me. I reported it to Reddit itself as harassment, because that's exactly what it is, but I doubt anything will come of it. It doesn't super matter because as long as league of legends has vanguard, I'm not playing it and therefor have no reason to comment on that community, but whatever. Edit: Downvoted for exposing clear mod abuse lol. Never change reddit.
It’s definitely bullshit. Certainly an abuse of power on their part. Oh well. We are probably better off without that subreddit
Yeah lol and valorant subs are just silencing anything about this.
Yes that explains why nobody is talking about it it's just getting buried by complacent assholes
You’ve probably got tons of other spyware on your comp already why does it bother you when it’s a game you’re playing?
All my friends said they'd never install a game with this kind of always-running kernel-level anti-cheat. Can't wait to for them all to 180 and justify keeping their addiction installed.
I remember in the early days of cell phones and people were actually concerned about location tracking. Now it's like "here is my unlimited location, file access, microphone, camera, network permission to 100 different Chinese Candy Crush clones that let me play 3 minutes between ads" and the wireless carrier sells your location to police for like $1 and everyone thinks it's great. And leaving your phone at home won't even help for much longer as modern cars are just as bad.
Now, since the mass market doesn't mind being spied on, it's nearly impossible to buy consumer products that don't track you and sell your data.
The best you can do is pay extra money to still be spied on but not see ads.
Looking back at the outrage over Oblivion selling a $5 horse armor microtransaction is pretty hilarious these days.
We went through this shit with Valorant, we'll go through it with League. Most people will be back even IF it has issues with some PCs.
[удалено]
I see what you did there
what amazes me is there is no discussion whatsoever in the main subreddit
The mods will ban any discussion or criticism of it
I uninstalled immediately. Avoid the shit out of Vanguard. Fucking spyware.
People hate software like this, but they also hate cheaters. I guess we can't have it both ways.
Id rather this than play with cheaters myself. But the games i play dont use vanguard.
A lot of cheats in Dota can be detected by AI without problems. I haven't played LoL in a decade but I doubt it is much different. In WoW bots used to get on mines always the same way - on top of it under an angle. There is no way players to do this 100 times in a row. How hard is it to detect this?! Aim bots shouldn't be hard to be detected too.
It's not even mainly cheats, it's botting that they aim to stop
Riot themselves posted an update to this. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1civ4l7/update_from_riot_on_vanguard/
There is no bricking in Ba Sing Se ☺️ Edit.. my laptop just got BSOD'ed for trying to uninstall league and vanguard
When I tried valorant years ago I had to use third party software to remove vanguard from my Pc. It caused so many performance issues until it was removed
That's not required. I had to go into safe mode to remove it
Then they banned anyone who questioned or criticized it
A game needing secureboot is absolutely insane Secureboot is the one setting in bios that can potentially brick your machine if you mess it up Also, secureboot just ensures that only signed code can run before the os has booted up. I can just sign code myself and enroll that key into the motherboard to run it Riot can only verify that the boot chain is "not tampered with" if they also have some form of control over the keys enrolled in your machine.
If you read the thread, you'll see Vanguard for League specifically does not require secureboot. It's even bolded.
Looks like it's a thing in valorant tho
Uninstalled league after 11 years bcs of this. Maybe play tfr from mobile but nothing more. Thx rito, got rid of league thanks to you
> Uninstalled league after 11 years. Not a single human being would believe that you'll just stop playing completely.
people can quit league mate
I quit after ~10 years. Been clean for four years now.
I use Linux, so I have no choice but to quit lol. Glad I never spent money on this game, knew this would happen eventually.
Stopped addiction?
I was already playing one or less match a day. I returned to my total war addiction.
If you're playing tww3, Elspeth and Malakai are proper nuts, lots of fun to play
is this for League and the Riot client as well?
Well, I stop playing the game for myself.
Why would anyone play a game that messes around in the kernel?
Do you really think the average consumer cares
Most won't even know. The game installs anti-cheat as part of the install. I doubt they notify the user.
Most won't know because the subreddit and all the other forms of media are actively suppressing knowledge that this is effectively spyware.
Only the main lol sub is suppressing it, other subs and social media are full of people complaining about various issues, though it may have died out a bit because people are tired of complaining or have found work around to the issues.
Dont flatter yourself. Most people dont even know how much RAM their computer has. League has millions of players world wide. A vast majority of them wont even know what Kernel means in this context.
True, but those that do should be concerned. Also, the world is becoming more and more technologically adapt. There is a large portion of it that does know and those people are sharing/voicing their concerns. Doing so could have an affect. Why should I just sit by knowing how crap it is to be forced into quitting the game or giving them access to such a deep level of authority at all times?
> Also, the world is becoming more and more technologically adapt Ive got some bad news for you here. This is absolutely NOT the case. We thought that would happen, but if you look at kids in high school and entering college right now, technological knowledge is exceptionally low. There are people going into CS courses in college right now that dont know how to access files on their PC because they are so used to technology being plug and play easy to use. Im not telling you what you should or shouldnt do. Im simply saying that its foolish to think a majority of people are going to understand, let alone care, like you implied in your original post.
Yeah this exactly lol. Smartphones and Tablets dumbed down peoples knowledge of PC's considerably since they are just super easy to operate and require almost no thought given to it. Heck as someone who basically does tech support for all my friends and sometimes others im shocked as to how many people don't even know what a zip/rar file is. Also there was a quote (can't exactly remember it) that was very true it goes something like this: The people who are using the smartphones aren't actually smart but the guy who invented it and made sure everyone understands it is a genius. And i definitely agree huge respect for making such an intuitively useable device (and OS) but unfortunately that also led to what you just described.
Not just smartphones and tablets, but even OS design has been shifting into hiding things under the hood more and more. Every new windows update I'm finding that it is more difficult to access or adjust system options/functionality that I previously had straightforward access to. In some instances those options have just been completely removed. UI has moved people further and further away from being able to conceptualize the architecture of a computer system. I read that with the new League of Legends update, you can't even launch the game from the .exe, so consistency of file behavior is not even maintained (shortcuts are also affected by this). All this to say that it seems like even beyond "streamlining" the user experience, it seems like computer functionality is being deliberately obfuscated away from users. My personal opinion is that this is being done to instill dependency in users. Sort of like how car companies have been gradually making it more difficult to have access to the resources and capability of repairing and maintaining your own vehicle, you have to "take it to the dealer" to get it diagnosed and worked on. I've had friends who had something go wrong with a desktop and say "I'm just going to buy a new one" without even really attempting to troubleshoot or solve the issue. THAT is the dream reaction for these corporate controllers.
I prefer that the spyware actually serves a purpose, such as catching cheaters. I hate to break it to you, but you use 20 different forms of spyware every single day, and you get *nothing* from them.
People did care enough when Valorant came out and it's kernel level anti cheat. There was even huge threads about it here and in various other subs.
From what I'm seeing, the regular consumer will 100% care when they need to change specific BIOS settings because their pc can't boot up... yeah that's a little bit hard to ignore even for the regular consumer lil bro.
Vast majority of PC users will freeze if they see a BIOS screen. Pay $200 for Geek Squad to change a setting maybe, but more likely throw it in the trash.
When it bricks their system they will!
Most of the popular multiplayer games on PC use Kernel lvl anticheat.
Big truth, unfortunately LOL goes a step further by always being on and requiring a pc reboot if disabled to play the game. To say they are the same would just be wrong.
So don’t play any multiplayer games ever? Basically all of the major anti cheats have kernel access. The difference is that Vanguard runs at all times, but the others still access it when the game runs.
Not even just multiplayer games. Denuvo is also kernel level, including most cracks because they don't actually remove Denuvo and just bypass it. Most people don't understand just how much software already uses the kernel level
AVs are also kernel-level software and highly controversial in IT circles.
And that is the problem. It runs at all times, even when not playing. I don’t remember any other anti cheat that had to be initiated with boot up at all times. I’m not gonna let that stuff run on my pc.
You can just turn it off and restart only when you wanna play lol
Depends on the design of the game. If the zero trust is assumed with the client, anti-cheat would reside on the server only. This won't work for FPS games though. My main concern is that games can have exploits such as chat encoding, custom decals etc that could bomb the client. If the client is running in the kernel, an actor could root the machine.
It didn’t used to. They just added this. Hard to stop playing a game you’ve been playing for 10 years cuz of a new anti cheat.
If you are so worried about games messing with your kernel you better not be playing any of these games: * Apex Legends (EAC) * Fortnite (EAC) * Paladins (EAC) * Player Unknown: Battlegrounds (BE) * Rainbow Six: Siege (BE) * Planetside 2 (BE) * H1Z1 (BE) * Day-Z (BE) * Ark Survival Evolved (BE) * Dead by Daylight (EAC) * For Honor (EAC) [And so many more games](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/) Or is it only a problem to you when it's Riot?
Are there any current major PVP games without kernel level anticheat that doesn't have a massive cheating problem?
Literally the only multiplayer game that I felt didn't have a clear cheating problem was Valorant. It's almost like it actually works
Dota 2
Valorant is without a doubt the only successful game when it comes to battling cheaters on the market right now. You do run into cheaters every now and then still though but if you compare it to every other big game out there it's a night and day difference.
And then you have people ask why Vanguard is the only one that requires it be on from startup to game session. It's such an obvious security gap that vanguard closes. Like yeah it's annoying as hell to reboot to start vanguard but if you're going to let this thing on your machine it should actually stop cheaters.
most hacker dont fight the anticheat, they already switched to DMA devices.
So there's no major current MP game that doesn't have a huge cheating problem and also isn't using kernel-level anticheat?
Nope. Even a lot of ones that do use kernel level have massive cheating problems. Cheats are getting super fucking annoying
Pretty sure the only big multiplayer games that don't use kernel level anti-cheat are Valve games, as VAC is the only mainstream anti-cheat I can think of that isn't kernel level. And unfortunately, VAC is awful at stopping cheaters. There's a reason why FACEIT (third party matchmaking high end cs players use a lot) requires you to install their own anti-cheat. Edit: Apparently Blizzard also has a VAC-like anti-cheat called Warden, but it apparently doesn't work well either. I'd assume we'd hear a lot more of complaining about overwatch cheating if that game had a bigger focus on aiming.
Is Warden and FACEIT kernel level?
FACEIT's anti cheat is, Warden is not.
And they're fine with FACEIT's anti cheat kernel level access but they can't stand with Vanguard kernel level access? Doesn't that sound odd?
The only people who are not fine with Vanguard are terminally online pcgaming subreddit users, who are not playing the game, neither were interesting in playing this game, but their hivemind told them to shit on Riot games and Blizzard on every possible occasion.
There's a reason they still don't have a replay viewer multiple years after launch lol.
LoL but not anymore
Except these games don’t have the ac running when the game is closed. Way worse.
Original comment just talked about games doing stuff at the kernel level though not that it runs at all times
WHY
Damn. That's for the list, that's extremely helpful.
I've played 0 seconds of all of those you listed. Sweet.
Nope, I dont play any of those.
which one of those have to have the anti cheat running 24/7 even if the game doesnt run? which one of those can screenshot the users desktop? there are clear distinctions to be made here.
Ha, jokes on you. I don't play those games for the same reason that said, which of these starts when you start your pc? Which of these runs 24/7 in the background when you aren't even running the game?
missing the part where Vanguard is on at all times, whereas the ones you listed only turn on when the game is launched
Nobody has played Planetside 2 for about ten years now.
There is currently 571 players playing it on steam right now. Don't make the poor fans of Planetside sad.
None of them are always on and required at system boot. Can we PLEASE stop referencing other games as if they are using this in the same manner?
So which of those run at PC start up? And have code to take pictures of your screen even if it's claimed to be 'not active'?
Done! Sweet, but yeah a company owned by Tencent, who actively contributes to technology monitoring and policing the people in China, SHOULD probably at least cause a consumer to ask themselves if they find it worthwhile. Permitting Kernel level access to a company that actively demands that of people they help monitor at a state level is... reasonably questionable.
Yes but this software doesn't run when the game is closed or 24/7 and doesn't require you to reboot your pc every single time.
Not true, vanguard runs when your pc runs
No. I don't like FPS so I haven't played nor even had any inclination to ever play these. > Or is it only a problem to you when it's Riot? Is this really an argument when their client it's a 10 years old piece of shit that has never worked properly and they had a data leak 4 months ago? Yes even if it only was a problem because Rito does it that's perfectly valid considering how dogwater they are at tech support.
None of those have a history of regularly of sabotaging people's hardware and breaking operating systems. Most people care about that, not the "spyware". I installed it, and it immediately informed me it was blocking a driver that on examination is widely used for controlling peripheral hardware by some apps, specifically fans. Good thing i was not actually using it, or i would have a computer with no working cooling system.
EasyAntiCheat and BattlEye are also kernel level anticheat
Im not sure but arent all anti cheat kernel level? With Easy Anti Cheat being kinda the most popular one used by game devs?
Basically all modern AC tools are on kernel level because otherwise they are useless. Hacks work on kernel level so have the AC tools. And also why not play a game with a AC kernel level? It’s not messing around there lol
Valorant has had vanguard for years. I’ve never seen a cheater in over a thousand matches.
i could argue the same, but with league without vanguard.
Because addiction and laziness. Same happened to me, but I have really stopped caring. They can see my ahole if that lets me play the game, obv joke, but also not really..
If you went through the list of games that have kernel level access anticheat, you would be changing your question really quickly to "Why would anyone play multi-player games?"
don't worry everyone, Riot just released their PR on /r/leagueoflegends and apparently everyone with an issue was actually lying and all it well with Vanguard! legit the damage control post on there is next level, using a "see only 0.03% of players reported an issue with the game" acting as if people actually report issues using the official channels for any game and don't just google for a solution.
Can't confirm it 100% but I lost my last instance of Windows after Valorant crashed and corrupted it far beyond recovery. Never had any other game do anything even remotely similar, so I blame Vanguard lmao
>claiming
Spoiler: it isn't
It might be, there is currently a thread on /r/leagueoflegends from a dev offering troubleshooting for a variety of issues (although basically all of the problems don't seem to be bricking computers)
According to the dev, the issues of 'bricking PCs' are a result of users bypassing Windows 11's TPM 2.0 requirement.
Interesting that the DRM is undoing the bypass instead of just preventing the game from connecting to any servers while TPM is inactive (and displaying an appropriate error explaining what the issue is that's keeping you from connecting to the game servers). If this is indeed what is happening, then that is *incredibly dumb* and justifies boycotting the game.
It is supposed to do this and give a VAN9001 error. LS has a singular person do all of his PC stuff, not sure what that guy did specifically but if this is happening on all of his computers and almost no one else, then I'd put the blame on the guy doing something weird when setting up the machines.
Considering that the only way to install windows 11 without a valid TPM 2.0 module is using a modified iso, yeah that's on the dude. Also just in case, microsoft went back on their word a year or two ago and allowed older systems as long as they had a valid module instead of having an arbitrary cutoff at skylake.
Wait, LoL didn't have Vanguard until now? Eh, I'm never gonna play LoL again, anyways. This just seals the deal even more.
I uninstalled the game long ago, but most of LoL players have a potato pc, like 4gb ram , dual core cpu. Now they can rest by force 😂. Go play good games instead this crap
At this point LoL owning company (whatever it is) could just sell their own laptops with custom operation systems. Like Apple
Unironically what Tencent would do lmao
Yeah I had to launch lol through the riot launcher bc the client wouldn’t let me launch it due to some weird access right bullshit.
Got a brand new PC a while back, never installed LoL or Valorant up until last week. After downloading Valorant, Riot’s insane Vanguard tells me to boot my system in secure mode. Why? Just why?
Downloaded it and nothing bad so far. My biggest worry was not china spying on me but riot duct taping it onto the worst made client in existence. I don't doubt there's pc fuckery happening to people and riot is trying to hide it.
First time?
i feel bad for the devs a lil bit because u know they gotta deal with all the bashings and hate from the community but all they can realistically do is just pump out PR responses