A sex therapist explained to me that studying all fetishes is difficult because of tabboos associated with them. Again according to their explanation, fethishes develop because of associations. Feeling horny when you're staring at a blue dress? Boom! Baby wants blue velvet.
Personally, I'm not sure I buy that its that simple, but that's what I was told. Fetishes just don't seem to be an area of human behavior we know much about.
Then again, if you're interested, this internet writer collected whole bunch of self-report survey data from people about their fetishes. Here is a link to their substack: https://knowingless.com/.
Although that is an extreme rudimentary explanation it's kind of accurate in a way? It's the whole aspect of what fires together wires together. Again, a very simple explanation to a complex thing. I think Chris Hardwick explains fetishes perfectly in my opinion.
"fetishes are just weird boner landmines you walk on in life. No one tells you, hey remember that harness you wore as a kid, THAT'S gonna come back later."
One thing to consider is if your personality is a continent, your sexuality and preferences are more of an island bordering it. Yes, a person's history/environment absolutely does have bearing on future sexuality development. It's just that your behavior in other parts of your life is fairly isolated from your "sexual personality". The sexual circuits in your brain are fairly simple and easily confused; many studies have been done showing that the brain gets more aroused when it's afraid. Other forms of cognitive arousal can bleed into sexual activation in this stocastic way. Further, sex brain turns off a lot of higher cognitive functions and emotions like higher logic, morality, disgust, other character judgements, etc.
Correlations between personality and sexual preferences are very weak. It's more interesting to study a person's higher personality outside of sex than to visit this island of sexual behavior and try to make grand deductions from it about a person and a way they think and behave.
Can the "island" make significant changes of its own, or is there a fundamental core that it doesn't drift too far from? For example, say a person has a lifestyle of polygamy early in life and for several years thereafter its discovery. Would this person be capable of a monogamous relationship in the future? Does early adulthood anchor the unshifting core of the island to what its exposed to?
So many questions.
Absolutely. New sexual triggers and responses are all but guaranteed to be created throughout your life. The sexual parts of your brain learn like most other regions even if they are more simplistic in their processing and response to stimulus. You even learn to find certain faces more or less attractive as you age too. It's thought that your emotional experiences with certain facial features fundamentally augments your response to visual and facial related stimulus.
A polygamous person will always be capable of polygamy where a monogamous person would not, but a polygamous person is never *incapable* of monogamy. They might end up preferring it as they age due to how complicated polygamous relationships are, but I'd be surprised if they "unlearned" polygamy. Unlearning anything is nearly impossible, usually you're "rerouting" (adding new things is far easier than removing old things), but even rerouting can be hard especially in the sexual domain.
Like any parts of the brain, I think the sexual part of you "solidifies" as time goes on and is likely highly volatile at young ages. (I say likely, but there's been many studies showing this) Though this is more general brain stuff not exclusive to sexual circuits.
I feel like I should share this one since I came across it some time back from another angle.
It's not just a fetish https://stainedglasswoman.substack.com/p/beneath-the-surface
I think this is another reason that people cite for this fantasy! whoever is being "ravaged" is free from culpability and thus can avoid the inner shame/moral judgement that might otherwise be associated with pursuing what they want in a more direct way :)
Yup! ContraPoints’ [latest video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48) covered this a lot from the perspective of written erotica. That is a major part of it for many people. The whole video is honestly great, best one she’s done in the last few years imo
Ngl I think a big part of this is definitely the relief of the pressure typically put on men to be the one who directs the situation. Like a more extreme version of the same relief from femdom.
As a man who considers myself to be a switch, I definitely have an appreciation for the CNC/ravishment kink both giving and receiving. It does seem among men to be a smaller demographic than women on the submissive side of things.
There used to be a subreddit I'd lurk (now banned AFAIK) that focused on "role reversed" ravishment-type content, so basically coercive femdomy stuff, which I remember had a kinda sizeable amount of subscribers... Outside of that, I don't recall noticing much of a following dedicated to that kink, although it's def not uncommon to see hentai featuring men being taken advantage of.
Looks like the one I had in mind is still banned for being unmoderated. However, I did just discover another [active subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/FMRP/s/VuPhdFGuxk) dedicated to the same kink! 😍
"FMRP," I added a link to the post you responded to, I wanted to double-check that I wasn't breaking any rule here. It's actually not *that* busy, but I'll add some posts to it in my spare time
I'm curious. Why the quotes around the word "embarressed"? Are the men you referenced not actually embarressed about having that particular kink but rather role playing embarrressment as part of their kink?
I hope my question makes sense lol.
Usually that’s the term they use. Or “ashamed” that their partners would lose respect for them if they knew about these fantasies and kinks.
Sometimes they do want intentionally shamed in role play, but what I’ve encountered is many of them aren’t if there’s an element of anonymity. For instance online they will openly engage in kink or even meet up with others to do so. It’s really only the people closest to them that they feel the need to hide it from.
They are really only embarrassed conditionally or for people to know that about them and not about the kink or whatever itself but the judgement they assume they will receive from the people who they care deeply about their opinions of them. When they are in the kink community online or in persona they really open up. Same as clients who say for instance were into being pegged but uncomfortable about anyone knowing then react very positively when their partner expresses interest in their fantasy, but can’t manage to bring it up first.
When it comes to ravishment kinks it’s usually things we feel society doesn’t approve of (female sexuality and pleasure is commonly one of those things). In a CNC type scenario the “victim” has “no choice” and when they feel as though they have plausible deniability about having wanted whatever act then they can relax and let themselves enjoy it without the fear of being demonized or shamed for it. Since they aren’t the ones initiating whatever particular act then they can engage without shame or guilt.
Thanks for the taking the time to type that all out! It was very interesting and enlighting to read. I wish I had some of those reddit stars to give lol.
This is quite common among gay men. Of course with that group you still have a lot of guys who may feel sexually repressed or feel guilty about expressing their sexuality, especially as a bottom (which isn’t considered “manly” in many cultures). So being “forced” to do the thing you really want to do is a means of rationalizing it.
Same reason why many gay and bisexual men will need drugs and/or alcohol to be part of the scene. It lowers the inhibitions and you can blame the substance for doing something that you’d “never ordinarily do.”
Great point, that also should be discussed. That said, I suspect the reasons are basically the same - taboo, reclaiming trauma, feeling desired, etc. There would be one opposite feature however, which is that while women would worry that the fantasy makes them a bad feminist etc., a man might worry that it makes him non-masculine.
Male sexuality is so much more nuanced than its given credit for, but we get scrutinized for very little under what we think of as "masculine" or not. If you like anal, crossdressing or Trans women, there's a very annoying possibility you'll be seen as "*gay.*"
If you own sex toys, pay for porn or have a fondness for hentai, "*maybe some mental hang-up preventing him from being a real woman.*" And indeed, there's a certain level of vulnerability to engaging in submissive activities which can very humiliating if that side is exposed to the wrong type of person. Not in a fun way, an embarrassing way that could very possibly cause them to become more inhibited in the future out of that fear of being misunderstood.
THANK YOU for asking this question! I don’t have an answer but I’m subscribed bc I wonder the same thing. It’s one reason I consider myself kinky but am not more involved with the community. Im a feminist and lots of kinky men are, but I’m sure there are men with this kink that genuinely hate women. I’ve met some 😬
For sure. But there are also women with this kink who have self-esteem problems etc. And psychologists and therapists are always at pains to explain how it can be OK to have a rape fantasy from the woman's perspective.
I think at the core of both sides of it is a desire to relinquish one's perception of themselves and the other. Women and men both experience a tug-of-war between their desire for sex and their fear of rejection by potential mates or by society.
This fantasy allows both sides to allow their desire to overcome their inhibitions. Men can avoid the anxiety and shame of being undesirable or inadequate, and women can avoid the societal guilt and shame of being promiscuous or adulterous.
ETA: I also think it's somewhat related to the so-called "call of the void." SA is generally agreed to be among the worst crimes (sins, even) one can commit or be subjected to. Once a man commits such an act, he is considered by most to be irredeemable, a predatory animal, less than human. Similarly, female victims of SA are often seen as nothing more than that. Fantasizing or roleplaying about such a thing can be a way of challenging one's ego or self-concept; a way of integrating the shadow.
The most important part about fantasies is that the person who is fantasizing is in control and outside of the situation. You remove the control part of the picture and it becomes rape.
I obviously agree with your point, but I think "consent" is a better term than "control." Even giving up/taking control is fine as long as it's consensual, and I'd wager that many with this fantasy would express a desire for exactly that.
>I think "consent" is a better term than "control."
I actually think they're pretty distinct.
Being sub and having submissive *desires* is a bit paradoxical: you want someone to do specific things to you, and in a way that makes you feel the *exact right* amount of safety, balanced with excitement. But wanting your partner to do specific things is *itself* an attempt at control, and the fantasy is about yielding control to them...
It's hard to achieve this delicate balance with another person, but alone in your fantasies where you have total control and no worries about your partner crossing the line or you annoying them while "topping from the bottom", you can quite easily explore those feelings and understand them better.
I do think that when exploring alone, control is a big part of what makes these fantasies safe and easier to explore. Meanwhile, when exploring with a partner, consent is obviously important as it is in any sexual encounter.
I know exactly what you’re talking about. My fantasies involve me being completely passive while allowing another person to do whatever they want to me. As part of the fantasy, I don’t want to have control over what they are doing, nor do I want to be able to stop them. That being said, I set up the fantasy so that they are doing exactly what I want them to do.
I tried once to act out these fantasies with a partner, but I found that I was losing too much control, making the experience unenjoyable. I am only interested in the illusion of loss of control, where I’m precisely scripting how I choose to lose control.
A good analysis of this from women’s perspective is actually [ContraPoint’s Twilight video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48), which explores erotica for women and why “ravishment” is such a common fantasy. It’s imo her best video in a few years and really fascinating.
I am nonbinary (transmasc) and have this kink in both directions. For me topping in CNC is fascinating because I know my partners (mostly men) have many of the same conflicting desires (between what they logically think they should want and what they actually desire) and sometimes shame about it that drive me. Being able to give them what they want is a great feeling. Something I also see is that a lot of kink can be a sort of funhouse mirror for our fears (personal or cultural). I’m going to talk about this in gendered terms since that is the implication of the question, but there are plenty of people who break with the traditional gender expectations or (like me) are gender nonconforming in a way that doesn’t neatly fall into the binary assumptions around desire.
Most women fear rape above most things, are taught how to try to avoid it from a young age, and that fear can dominate one’s life whether they’ve experienced it personally or not. Reclaiming the emotional space this fear takes up in a safe environment can feel liberating to some. There is of course the allure of being desired so much the person “can’t help themselves” and the emotional safety of not being responsible for one’s desires that is rooted in how women’s desire is often demonized in purity culture.
I think for most men (certainly all the men I spend my time with) there is a near equal fear of violating a woman’s consent. This is both fear of self, as the way we talk about men’s desire is often equated implicitly with danger (that of course gets internalized in different ways), and fear of false accusations. I’d speculate when it comes to sex being raped or being seen as a rapist are the greatest fears of each gender. From that perspective it makes a lot of sense that this could form type of desire that is in line with what men are taught about themselves (as men are talked about as potential rapists constantly). To then have a partner who deeply desires CNC is also giving men the ability to explore that fear and desire in a safe context. Obviously this doesn’t go into every nuance of the appeal, but I think it explains why it is relatively common.
I obviously don’t think it’s problematic to have a CNC kink from either perspective, sex and kink are often vehicles to process things from other parts of our lives that affect us deeply. But I do think the proportion of tops and bottoms for CNC who are men and women respectively is related to some of the often unhealthy ways we talk about desire based on gender. It is rational for women to fear rape, but it is possible for a reasonable fear to become an unhealthy fixation. Look no further than the gang stalking subreddit or how an obsession with true crime can lead to genuinely irrational and fully unhealthy responses to fear women experience. Honestly, even just the man versus bear discourse demonstrates this (perhaps controversial, but the number of people ignoring how much more dangerous a wild animal is… a little alarming). There is also the shame around women’s sexuality that makes it feel safer for many to “relinquish control” (while of course still having it via a safeword) than to pursue their sexual wants more directly. That shame is obviously harmful, kink is just one of the healthier ways to cope with it and reclaim sexuality.
But frankly women aren’t alone in having their sexuality shamed. Where we treat women’s sexuality as a moral impurity, we flat out demonize men’s. It is seen as expected and natural for men to have desire, but that desire is seen as a threat and something dirty. We’ve seen some strides made towards normalizing women’s desire (which have been and are sorely needed) but men’s sexuality is still seen as crude, unemotional, and dangerous. Men are taught that they are a threat and that their desire is too from early on as well. In many progressive spaces we code women’s desire as something beautiful and empowering, but men’s desire is unfortunately unavoidable and disgusting. And the fear of being a rapist is taught early too. Women typically don’t worry too much about violating men’s consent, and men are taught that they should always want it. This isn’t because women are innately less able to violate consent, but because of misogyny that sees men as having all the agency and women none of it. Women don’t see themselves as capable of abuse and men don’t see themselves as capable of being victims. This doesn’t result in women not violating men’s consent - every man I know has been sexually assaulted by a woman. Even I have been, multiple times. It just results in less reporting (as men don’t have a good framework to process what has happened to then and women tend to not even realize what they’re doing is rape pr assault) and it being taken less seriously because men are on average stronger than women. But someone not physically fighting back against assault does not mean no assault occurred.
This is an area where we need better education about consent that doesn’t only imagine men as perpetrators and women as victims. That itself is sexist and harms everyone involved in different ways. In many areas where we believe something is a women’s issue or a men’s issue, in truth the same experiences are much more equally distributed than we acknowledge. But we are not just what happens to us, we are often more defined by the stories we tell ourselves about those events. And our narratives have a significant gender skew that impacts men and women’s processing of and psychology around many shared experiences. It explains how these narratives can end up contributing to distributions of kink (though I don’t think they are wholly responsible or that it makes kink bad or unhealthy) but it also results in many negative consequences that men and women face.
Eta: sorry, I realize my answer is much more sociological than psychological, but there is obviously overlap lol
This was a super interesting analysis, thank you. And believe it or not I've seen that Contrapoints video - it's great! Like her, I really appreciate the book by Michael Bader which she mentions.
last time i joined an app of this nature (not for something so hardcore , more to experiment) a man tried to r**e me, freaked the fuck out when i told him i wasn’t ready. would definitely not recommend these men
Straight cis man here. I dont have this exact fantasy - Im a fan of consent who would have guessed lol/smh - but I am absolutely a fan of being so overwhelmed by desire that my 'animal' aspect takes over.
However, in my fantasies its because of my partner deliberately teasing/coaxing me to the point that I 'break' and overpower her in a mutually pleasurable and agreed upon context. I dont know what this fantasy is called but I call it 'The Table Turner' in that the partner in control and under control swap halfway through if that makes sense?
Ive analyzed myself enough to theorize that for me this stems from several traumatic relationships in my formative years where I experienced emotional, physical and sexual abuse/humiliation/domination by girls/women and then when reaching out for help basically got the message from men either: 'lucky you' or 'grab your balls and put her in her place' and from women either: 'women cant be abusers/rapists' or: 'serves you right you penis-having pig!'
but the straight up 'assaulting a random woman' thing is as opposite a turn-on as it gets for me. i want my animal lust returned to me enthusistically by my partner as we both 'win' and get what we want as each of us exchanges one form of control and surrender for another/each others. I hope that makes sense?
Do you really think that you have this kind of fantasy because of trauma? If so, I feel sorry for you because I can't see any way that is true. You seem like a perfectly normal man with healthy testosterone. I seriously doubt that your fantasy is from your emotional trauma. From my perspective, it is just lust, which is driven by testosterone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it is not a sign of some underlying unhealed trauma, in my opinion.
Thanks for the weigh-in. You may be exactly right and that its not related, that was another possible conclusion I came to when I was analyzing myself some years back. I certainly dont feel any shame about it or anger/rage toward my real or imagined partner, its very much an 'aggressively joyful' place to be!
I did have an ex who was more into the straight-up cnc/degradation stuff and part of why I ended things was because I realized she was trying to turn me into her past abusers by being abusive to me. Nope, check please lol!
OK, great. thanks.
If I was you, I'd focus on completing my grieving over what happened in my past. Grieving, for me at least, is critical to having a happier future. I developed something I call Intentional Grieving, if you're interested. It's just something I learned on my own. I'm not selling anything.
I think abuse in isolation has low explanatory power for narrowly-scoped behaviors, like particular kinks. There's good scientific evidence that abuse in childhood can lead to various personality disorders like borderline, narcissism, socipathy, etc.
But outside a broader clinical picture of many related behaviors I think it's hard to draw firm conclusions about what particular experiences lead to what.
Abuse is sadly very common, and while it might seem the logical explanation for a particular person's adult kinks in their particular life context, what about all the people who had very similar experiences in their formative years but aren't interested in it, at all? There are 8 billion people on the planet, so they're definitely out there.
>that was another possible conclusion I came to when I was analyzing myself some years back.
There are all sorts of connections one could make about whether this one abusive incident lead to liking a certain brand of socks, and this one bad relationship lead to a hatred of country music, and all sorts of plausible chains of causality that finally don't make much sense to deeply speculate on.
The therapists I've found most helpful for the most part politely refuse to speculate on stuff like this, and might point out that sinking too deep into these kind of thoughts and figuring every proclivity must have a well-defined origin, as one of the hazards of self-analysis. Without guidance it can be easy to lose the forest for the trees.
I believe the catharsis during grieving is the one true way to heal from trauma. Intellectual solutions merely plaster over the actual issue. Catharsis is currently out of fashion as a healing modality, but it was, in fact, common for decades and has been successfully used in clinical practice for at least as long.
Grieving trauma is one of the most powerful ways I know of to heal it. It's an emotional process, not an intellectual one.
Micro-analyzing the origins of behaviors doesn't make much sense. I think abuse in childhood has explanatory power for adult behaviors, but only in a broader clinical picture. Meanwhile these kind of fantasies are absurdly common, and sadly abuse is absurdly common, too.
I agree that intellectually pursuing our behaviors through micro-analysis is not useful. Grieving however, is extremely useful in my experience. Grieving over what happened to us, which is an emotional process and not an intellectual one, has been very useful for me. The world of grieving is much bigger than I think most people realize.
>The world of grieving is much bigger than I think most people realize.
Oh, yes. Grief and shame, the two big ones. My late mother was a social worker and had a shelf full of books on the topics, I'll likely never be able to read anything but a small fraction of it, I'm a much slower reader than she was.
There's a lot I wish I could ask her about the topic now, but will never have a chance...I was just a dumb kid when she was reading them all herself, in the confidence of youth I thought it was a silly preoccupation. There is grief..
I quite like the tables turned thing as well! I also connect some of my own desires to growing up around a highly domineering female presence (which also dominated the male authority in my life) - so I think these experiences can be cathartic reversals of that.
I also agree about the "assaulting a random woman" thing not being appealing. For one thing, I think a crucial part of the typical ravishment fantasies on both ends of it is that everyone is enjoying themselves. This is a distinguishing feature of fantasy that "makes it ok" in the imagination, according to Michael Bader.
Ahh, this is the natural and reasonable other side of the coin! Thank you for your answer- I’ve always struggled to understand the male perspective in this in the past. It’s actually pretty hot (and basically what the girl is fantasizing as well. He’s so overcome that her forcibly pleasures you both)
I replied somewhere else already and touched on some of this, but in response to the people telling you that your experiences can’t be related to your kink: traumatic/formative experiences aren’t a one-to-one with kink, but I think the narratives we tell ourselves (individually and as a society) around those experiences absolutely can be related. You were given a specific narrative to understand your experiences (a shitty victim-blaming one at that) and it’s possible that one way you processed that dissonance was to find a situation (this kink) in which that logic would make sense.
I think a lot of people want to shy away from talking about any way in which kink and trauma might be related because of potential for stigma and a misunderstanding of what that relationship would imply. It’s understandable and is usually done to avoid demonizing kink or trauma victims, but I think many kinky people would strongly disagree. And it’s a bit annoying to essentially be told we don’t know ourselves as much as a complete stranger on the internet does lol. People process trauma in all sorts of different ways, and especially when society or just those around us enforce a narrative about what we went through (whether it downplays or overly fixates or just misunderstands) it makes sense that sex/kink might be one of the ways we try to make sense of how our experience conflicts with this narrative, or even just our own complex feelings related to what happened. I think the same can happen when we don’t personally go through a trauma, but are surrounded with fears and narratives like those around gender that conflict with how we see ourselves. I don’t think it’s necessarily always the case, but so many kinky folks also use their preferred types of play as a way to work towards a resolution between our sense of self and the view of the other and the narratives others apply to us.
Think sometimes you can develop an interest in the kink of your partner via participation.
I've never been interested in BDSM but I've had partners who are super interested in it and I wouldn't be sad if I never did it again but I do really like doing that with my current partner in part because she gets so excited that then I get so excited.
This 100%. I’m pretty vanilla. The “kinks” I do have are pretty tame. But the main one is to please. What turns him on, turns me on. His arousal is my foreplay.
I think you're close to the truth with your assumption/guess, OP. Though I would change a few important terms.
It's not assumed necessarily that all men would enjoy forcing themselves on someone- it's more *understood* that we live in a patriarchal society where men are taught and encouraged to be assertive, forceful, dominant in all walks of life.
Even the people who don't want to admit this patriarchy exists *understand* on a subconscious level that it's assumed to some degree boys want to be in charge.
But there's also just the general, non gendered fact that a selfish person just takes what they want. Giving oneself up, being vulnerable, is difficult for everybody on some levels.
As humans, in general, it's assumed that taking what we want is more instinctive than *wanting* to be "victimized" or "overpowered." We all start life with the instinct to take what we want, to a degree. Even if it's just, other kids toys, or food, or whatever. Whereas it's not an assumed behavior to make ourselves receptive to... Invasion. Domination. Control.
This would be my guess.
Another possibility is that, up till more recently, science in general was a field dominated by men who would gatekeep women out of the conversation. A lot of the studies and books were written by men, and they're doing research on the thing they have more bias of curiosity for; women and their behaviors.
Of course, a lot of that stuff is being challenged by modern psychologists. But enough of it is left over that it still makes up a lot of the available study materials.
Btw this is all kind of just my thoughts on the subject. I am not a psychologist lol
I would be really surprised if the fantasy were just as common in the other direction. I.e. there are probably many more men who consent to the request from their partner than make the request of their partner.
100%. I like being rough and primal, but 99% of the kinks I’ve engaged in have been on the woman’s request. I’m not in the camp of pressuring women at all, so I just match where they’re at go along for the ride. I’ve been shocked at how kinky that goes 🤣🤣
This is what I've seen and heard. Those first years of dating were sort of traumatic. The most common requests I had from women were this, choking and daddy fetish stuff. I had naively gone into it thinking I'd find love, get married and live happily ever; not be pressured into wearing a balaclava and roleplaying sexual assault by my girlfriend. None of that was ever on my radar.
I once heard it could be due to guilt, like being raised catholic and not wanting to be a "slut" when it comes to sex. But the idea of all that attraction and tension building up to the point of being "taken" isn't the same thing on paper, so to speak!
Glad they changed the terminology. A ravishment fantasy isn't technically rape, because the person doing the fantasizing is actually in control of the whole scenario.
Interesting that men don't fantasize about it in the same way, maybe because it's too "emasculating"? Like being a bottom in a gay relationship isn't "masculine" in a straight sense. But I suspect men are more reluctant to admit wanting this kind of thing, that's why otherwise powerful men in regular life seem to enjoy secretly visiting dominatrices?
I'm astonished to see no one mention this historical and cultural angle to this question.
For the vast majority of human history, slavery, warfare, and rape were the norms of society. When a Roman army went on campaign, it expected to take any prisoners as slaves, and that the women would be raped as a matter of course.
When Vikings raided your village, the expectation was that any women would be ravished before being sold.
Across many cultures, the abduction of women was a way for a man to obtain a wife without needing to pay a dowery price to her family.
Is it really any wonder that some men, frustrated with the pageantry and rejection so common in modern courtship, would fantasize about a time when simply being strong and clever enough to capture his prize was justification enough to take it? Throw in the fantasy of "taming" the woman with his sexual prowess and "making her love it" as a demonstration of his own desirability and ability to please, and it's easy to see where the appeal comes from.
On top of all of that, this worldview is deeply unacceptable under social norms (and rightly so), so there is the appeal of the forbidden and breaking the bonds of society to indulge in desires.
I do think that this is probably an important component. Another thing is this: Women will reasonably roll their eyes at the idea that the domination of women is taboo, given how "normal" it is in society historically, but a man today raised in a relatively liberal/progressive family who absorbs largely mainstream Hollywood content is bombarded with nonstop girl power/girl boss/"badass bitch" imagery and language and characters. So, even though it's ludicrous to think this way historically, a scenario in which a woman is dominated and she likes it is actually very "taboo" in some contexts.
This. A thousand times this. The elephant in the room.
Humans weren't created from scratch yesterday. And human nature doesn't change on human timescales.
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I’m sure there are many, many answers, but sticking with a popular theme, people say *some* women have ravish fantasies because it absolves them of cultural or religious guilt of their desire. And I would wager at least some people have the complementary fantasy of “I was overcome with desire” which in a conservative context still gets you in trouble but with the understanding and mitigating factor that these things do happen
That's an interesting concept. "I couldn't control myself" or "I dont have to control myself" must be somewhat of a relief for men who are continuallu having to exercise self control
I'm sure that's an element of it, but there are some men who really enjoy "ravishing" a woman and other men who are made uncomfortable by it. The place to explain this is psychology.
As OP said. Part of the “Ravish me” side of it is 100% that a large part of (Good) sex is based around feeling sexy/beautiful/desired.
What they are kind of missing is that the male side of that is often feeling “Virile.”
That’s the male side of it.
In the actual kink the simple answer is.
The person being taken wants to feel desired and like the other person wants them so much they can’t hold back.
The person doing the taking wants the same thing. They just want it from the other end, they want to be someone that someone else WANTS to take them. Even if social norms won’t let the person admit that.
The whole thing is basically cultural guilt kink..
Thank you from coming to my Ted talk.
I have a pretty strong "ravishment" kink that I'm about 90% sure is a direct result of my lack of success with the ladies as a teenager. The thought of just saying "fuck it" and taking it is pretty 🔥 to me.
I think this is exactly the sort of psychological role for these fantasies that ought to be explored more. In this case, what the fantasy does is cathartically reverse/fix the problem of rejection by attractive women, but with the guilt/shame-freeing element that they really enjoy it in the fantasy.
The act of rape is seen as being a power thing, and I think that plays into the attractiveness of ravishment for men. They have a safe space to "take" in a consensual way that does not make them monsters. It is similar to the idea behind the psychology of loving horror; you are capable of experiencing trauma without it being done upon you, and in an environment in which you can stop it at any time if it becomes too much to handle.
Lol yes but that is also part of the point in this case. When it comes to "bad" fantasies, the mind usually has everyone enjoying themselves. Hence the importance of the consensual context overall, even if you're playing nonconsent in the fantasy.
Honestly, I think there’s a tendency to pathologize women more than men. I think it’s a (VERY tangential) spinoff of victim-blaming. I don’t think the researchers are bad people, but I do think that’s why there’s more interest on one side. I think you’re right that some consider it “culturally obvious”.
The most surprising thing I’ve learned is that women seem to be more “into it” than men. Meaning she asks for it and he plays along because he likes that SHE likes it, but he has no strong desire for it himself. This is purely my anecdotal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think it started with the assumption that it was obvious why, and has shifted to being mostly due to how controversial the idea of a man enjoying that is. Though the rebranding as CNC might help, as it is far less stigmatized.
Why isn’t this talked about? It’s fairly straightforward. Rape is about control. Rape fantasies are just another dom type fetish. Women can have this fantasy too. It’s not a mystery. It’s not uncommon. It’s just socially less acceptable. You’re asking questions about social norms.
That's such a cliche, and so incomplete as to be effectively not true. It never seems to occur to people who repeat this old canard to even try to understand what the reasons are that people have these desires.
In the case of women, it's very common to fantasize about rape for multiple, overlapping reasons. The idea that a man finds her so attractive he can't control himself is often cited, but I think that's secondary or tertiary. The usual mechanism is that the illusion of being forced to have sex by someone stronger than you are removes your feelings of guilt and 'dirtiness' for choosing to have sex. If it's not your choice and you can't make it stop, then there's no room in your head to feel guilty about it. Because of this, it's not at all uncommon for women with rape fantasies to be inorgasmic without the illusion of being forced.
In other words, NO, it's typically not at all "about control." That's a man's impetus for genuine rape, and we're talking about the female proclivity for rape fantasy; the two are entirely different. The latter is about shedding feelings of responsibility that inhibit pleasure.
The thing is that in actual CNC (consensual non-consensual) fantasies, it's the "victim", who holds all the power.
At any point they can say "stop", and everything ends right there, no questions asked, no hurt feelings.
It's kind of an extreme extension of BDSM or sub/dom dynamics.
I think it is because coercion is such a huge part of life and the sexual/non-sexual realms are not as discrete as people would like to believe.
Eroticizing the act of rape is also eroticizing the times we have been mentally, emotionally, behaviorally raped. In the sense that all work is prostitution, coerced generativity, etc. I think it is as much the enactment of a rape to dissumulate the ways in which we are all rape victims for example.
Emotional rape is a controversial category but it shouldn't be. Penetrative coercion obviously can manifest as emotional abuse, and in that sense our whole society is built on emotional rape
Well it helps me a lot not to stigmatize my own fantasies and porn use. For example to realize that in a coercive scenario I am eroticizing my own sense of being coerced as much as I'm imagining coercing someone else. It allows me to see that I'm also identifying with the one being dominated in the scene.
That might be hard to handle because as horrifying as a male rapist is, a male rape victim is also horrifying, like a man who cries and no one knows what to do about it. It gets at our societal fantasies of what people are supposed to be like.
The reality is that we are all vulnerable, all susceptible to influence and coercion.
Actually another thing I think about a lot is that the line between coercion and just taking initiative is pretty fuzzy. Any time you start talking to someone about something you can't really get consent. It's like saying "can I ask you a question?" Well, you already did.
It's really agonizing to be in a world which seems to require some kind of intervention but to take seriously the fact that getting people to grapple with tough subjects is to inflict a kind of trauma on them. But we all do this all the time anyway, from horrible scenes of people mistreating service workers to withdrawal and refusal to engage. In that way we "inflict" our absence. It's the equivalent of not acting being an action. Not taking the initiative is taking the initiative. Not coercing is coercion by depriving people of your own intervention.
That's kind of nuanced but I promise I mean it in good faith, not to muddy the waters but to really dwell on what it means to act without someone else's signing off, and the agony of knowing that it's not really possible to get permission for everything.
This is a really thoughtful question, so I’ve tried to give it some serious thought before responding:
I’m an ameuter historian, just a few days ago I came across a book from 1885 which strove to depict ancient marriage traditions (tradition behind the veil the flowers etc).
One part that stuck out for me was that up until the third century, in England the bride was prepared in the morning as she prepares now but one part of this was that her hair was to be let down and parted with a spear, this was a throwback to when “marriage was achieved by capture” - for those that are unaware, hair being shown was a very intimate guesture, in tapestries depicting rape (like the bayeux tapestry the woman is shown being dragged along by her hair which is unbound)
Secondly the tradition of a “best man” is ancient too - this was when the groom saw a young woman he liked, invited his best man to help to kidnap and hold her prisoner while the groom raped her. Once he had held her prisoner past the ten day mark, this is the point where the girls parents would stop looking for her and accept that she was now married. These ten days are the origins of the “Honey moon”
In modern days young men have a common fantasy where they are in a dangerous situation where they need to rescue the woman they are fantasising about, the satisfying conclusion for the young man is then having rescued her, he has sex with her in a highly charged emotional state.
In conclusion, ravishment is part of the human psyche, but in our more enlightened times, we are aware it is no longer socially acceptable and if done wrongly causes a lot of mental trauma.
In the confines of a healthy relationship, it can be explored safely. My husband tells me he loves ravishing me because he feels very powerful and in control, he loves how feminine I am which he can envelop with his masculinity.
I think its important to note that thses arent necessarily true. I have heard different on the origins of honeymoons ,for example.
When a couple was married (the story did not say explicitly but it was implied to be a love match) they would be given a month (lunar cycle) off from the requirements of village life and its chores, and given a private space away from the people, and as much mead as they would want.
Mead (honey) month (moon).
Yes I m sure there are other connections that evolved such as you say mead which then turned into wedding ale for the wedding night then into the general knees up we have today.
It’s disturbing how power and rape have been used as weapons against women in ways that completely shape and change women’s own relationship with themselves and their sexuality.
Luckily, this is something that we can change if we want to, but it is so ingrained in our culture and our species because of male violence, that it seems insurmountable.
I also have MASSIVE BEEF with the idea that femininity is submissive, passive, objectified, weak, etc.
Look at female animals. They are not weak and passive and objectified. They are fierce and strong and active. I’ve never related to this bs idea that femininity means weak and masculinity means strong. I’ve never met weaker men than those who believe being men makes them superior or powerful or gives them some sort of strength beyond just the capacity for greater muscle mass.
I feel like you and I should be friends irl lol. The whole idea of femininity = weak, idiotic etc is a pile of shit. Foisted upon us from William the conqueror and enforced by insecure males ever since.
I found Philippa Gregory new book “Normal Women” very thought provoking, highly recommended.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Think this conversation is too controversial? The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen”. Lite pedophilia. There’s a lot of shit that we haven’t come to terms with yet as a culture.
>The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen”
Is this actually true? I've only ever seen people on reddit say this.
Pornhub's year in review shows milf as being number 2 most searched for term and I don't even see teen on the list. [https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2023-year-in-review#top-searches-pornstars](https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2023-year-in-review#top-searches-pornstars)
>The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen”.
This does not seem to be accurate. It actually appears to be specific fetish vids that are rare (but I'm happy to not know what those are).
Teen was the most searched for on porn hub a few years back by males, but then "milf" and "mature" were separated, and both right behind "teen" so if you put them together they'd vastly exceed teen..
>There’s a lot of shit that we haven’t come to terms with yet as a culture.
I mean, our legal and cultural system does a pretty good job compared to other cultures where child marriage is both legal and normal. It could be a lot worse.
This guy also hasn’t considered that “non-teen young adult” just isn’t a category simply because it’s the default unless otherwise specified. It’s so common that it doesn’t make sense to use it as a category.
If every video with an actress of that age range was tagged with that category, then it would be overwhelmingly the most common of all categories by a wide margin.
Disclaimer- I haven’t finished it yet, but I would recommend checking out the book [Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies by Michael Bader](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/913230)
Wouldn't it be the power and domination aspect? I know traditional rape is done, not because of attraction, but because the men enjoy the power/domination/degradation/humiliation aspects of the assault.
I'd always assumed that someone with a cnc kink enjoys those aspects as well, but doesn't want to go to prison for it/still has some humanity intact and their non-horny brain knows they don't actually want to harm anyone.
I've not read any books on it or anything, though. So that is just my uneducated guess.
Edited to add,
Similarly, I don't think women who enjoy this kink like it because they think they're so beautiful the man can't help himself. More like, they get off on the vulnerability, powerlessness, and complete domination aspects. The inability to say no. I could see some women with deeply held purity culture bullshit struggling with sex to the point that they develop this fantasy because they want to have sex, but morally have to say no.
But again, just my uneducated guess, as a woman who grew up in purity culture.
> I could see some women with deeply held purity culture bullshit struggling with sex to the point that they develop this fantasy because they want to have sex, but morally have to say no.
A number of men also seem to assume all women with rape or domination fantasies are victims of trauma or otherwise "damaged" in some way, perhaps to assuage the existential anxiety of the thought that the women who have them, tend to prefer to engage in those experiences with men who aren't them.
They're probably right about the second part, at least..
>But again, just my uneducated guess, as a woman who grew up in purity culture.
There are so many women out there that grew up in otherwise loving healthy families without that culture, who are also into kink, that unfortunately I tend to think the men most inclined to try to be a "teacher" to a woman with a purity-culture history, often tend to be the least qualified for the job.
In a different world, all doms might be required to have character references. The general concept makes some sense in this one, too.
I’m not sure if this is helpful, but I have personal experience with this from 3 different angles.
1. I’m a successfully published author of dark romance that caters to those enjoying rape fantasies. I make a very comfortable living, meaning that the amount of women drawn to that fantasy is significant.
Discussions with my readers revealed that they are drawn to the idea of a man finding them so irresistible, he can’t control himself. Mind you, this isn’t about the ravishing act itself. In this kind of fiction, the guy usually has attractive qualities, and he won’t leave the woman behind used and possibly pregnant. No, he is so obsessed with having her, he takes care of her. He feeds her, provides shelter, and sticks around for child-rearing. Far from the reality of what victims of this crime usually experience…
Another aspect is that a guy capable of such an act is typically ruthless. A villain or morally gray (or even pitch black) character, capable of keeping other, perhaps worse, guys away.
There are some readers who are drawn to this fiction because of a traumatizing past experience. However, those are the exception, and not the norm.
2. I happen to have a male friend who has a cnc kink. He loves nothing more than overpowering a woman… especially when she tosses, turns, screams, and struggles. Mind you, he is one of the most respectful men I ever met. The women set the boundaries, and he accepts them no problem. Most women would also consider him above average attractive. One of god’s blessed sons at a height of 6’5’’ and muscular built. We did a lot of talking about why he enjoys this kink. He himself is baffled, and says that, to him, it’s about having control. Something interesting I noticed is how he once mentioned how chaos ensued when his parents split up when he was at the height of puberty.
Another male acquaintance with the same kink explains that it’s about turning around mate choice for him. About the power to take that choice from a woman and make it for her. Also a very respectful man, btw, who is surprisingly gentle and loving outside of this kink.
3. Some would say that I’m an aspiring cougar. The men reaching out to me can be as young as 18 or 19, many of them virgins. A surprisingly large amount of them are aroused by the idea of an older woman taking their virginity through “ravishing”. Most of them say that the idea of being so desirable, an established woman can ignore their lack of resources, makes them feel incredibly wanted and valuable.
You do hear about it, but it is just in a different context, so probably in another genre of books, but it is generally brought up as an example of how awful men are.
But you are missing some that they don’t talk about as much, which is women who enjoy ravishing men and men who enjoy being ravished. This is quite common as well, and almost never pathologized the way it is with the genders reversed.
I would say that both sides of it are fairly obvious, for millions of years this dynamic would have been the norm. At the very least it would have been the norm before language was invented. This just looks like the average double standard for men and women that you see all over.
I do not fantasize about ravishing a female but my gf is into it so we will role play with the idea of her trying to get away, this info doesn’t affect this topic much but it does slightly make me think deeper into the fetish lol I don’t care for forcing myself on her or even have thoughts about it, but when the time comes I do enjoy watching her get turned on by how strong I am
"I do enjoy watching her get turned on by how strong I am" - I think this is a good example of two different erotic templates having overlap. Taking what you say seriously, you may not have the ravishment kink but you do find it erotically exciting that a woman would be turned on by your strength. So this ends up being a natural area of overlap, since "ravishing" involves exerting strength. Michael Bader talks about these sorts of sexual compatibility possibilities in his book *Arousal*.
Gay man here. Love ravishing and being ravished. What's sexier than someone screaming in protest? I feel like, at a low level, this is common for many gay men.
Not nessesarily full "ravishment" but like, definitly a rough sex or first-time sex kink
The thing to remember is that all forms of fantasy is consensual in your head. People being ravished in their fantasy want it. So that’s why the term is not “rape,” because rape by definition is non-consensual.
And ultimately this is rooted in gender norms: it’s culturally acceptable to be sexually submissive and female. It’s less culturally acceptable to be sexually submissive and male.
Yep. People often miss the psychological significance of the enjoyment/pleasure component. It's one of THE distinguishing features between fantasy and problematic ideation when it comes to "bad" actions.
I think you might be surprised how many men don't have this kink. I base this on my, 42M, experience with women whose men aren't aggressive enough to satisfy them. I have definitely become more aggressive during sex because it is what women want, not necessarily because it was a kink of mine.
I thought the reason the women's side of it was talked about so much more is cause it's way more common than people think. A lot more women have rape fantasies, not necessarily actually participating in CNC just the fantasy, then men have raping fantasies.
That is true, and probably part of the explanation.
Though if you look at how this topic comes up in sex psychology and therapy books, it's often in the context of women being worried that the kink reflects something bad about them like self-hate or being a "bad feminist" or "really" wanting to be dominated in real life. What's odd to me is that there is so little discussion of similar concerns for men - surely a man, or people who know the man, may be worried that his kink of ravishing reflects something bad about him like misogyny!
Yea I mean I'm not saying it's not worth discussing. It's just a major difference in scale, if I had to guess the amount of women fantasizing about being the sub in a rape fantasy is an order of magnitude higher than the amount of men fantasizing about being the dom in a rape fantasy.
Because we live in a double standard society and as men our thoughts, fantasies, evolutionary drive is wrong, gross and sexist. That’s why they probably don’t talk about. Sounds fun to me but only if it’s consent of course, lol.
I’m curious how u feel then about a lot of women generally fearing men? I’m in a lot of feminist spaces where these things are viewed as social conditioning/effects of patriarchy, and not inherent or biological. There’s often a lot of men who get very defensive that it’s not all men, men aren’t dangerous monsters etc, which I agree with, or Id like to. So from ur perspective, I understand that not all men act on these urges, but how are women supposed to… just accept that “men want to rape naturally”? How could I not hate men if that was true?
It’s 100% bullshit. This comment’s gonna be abrasive linguistically, but I’m mad at the topic not you.
Who you’re responding to completely ignores the man’s moral compass. I enjoy engaging in ravishment fantasies, because some women love them and the power is fun. It’s CNC for a reason though—underlying consent is implicit to the kink. Without consent, it turns from mutual fun to horrific abuse. Those are incomparable.
Ravishment fantasies are not the same as wanting to rape someone.
Actual rape fucking disgusts me. Any man who has a moral compass thinks of rape as utterly repulsive and would never have the temptation to commit it. I can safely say that I’ve never had the urge or thought to rape a woman in my life and I’d probably kill myself if I did. I’d be a monster at that point imo.
Don’t believe it, this man’s on some bs. If you have a moral compass, that wouldn’t be a thought or temptation. “Wanting to rape” is utterly repulsive and not the standard in today’s modern society. You’d have to override social conditioning since birth to actually “want” that and that’s a reflection of one’s character.
Don’t believe it for a second. We’re evolved, modern humans—not Neanderthals with limited cognitive capacities. That argument’s enablement “boys will be boys” bs
Edit: read his next comment. He’s an incel, 1000%
Hi, thank u for responding, and don’t worry, I wasn’t going to believe him, I just wanted to see how he tried to rationalize that for women to feel safe. I totally understand the difference between CNC and actual rape obviously, and I don’t believe “men naturally want to rape”, or at the very least, in light of this dudes take, definitely not all of them, but maybe some 😬.
Even if that was true about all men (it’s not), believing it would fundamentally change my entire life, terrify me, break all trust I have in any men, and lead to me mentally spiraling, so…. For my sanity I wouldn’t want to believe that anyway. I was just curious if he could have a take like that, but then also expect women to trust and respect men? Apparently he does, even tho that’s entirely contradictory. Also, apparently his whole spiel about male animals raping females, ending with “men want to rape naturally”, actually meant “women and men want to rape naturally”. Seems convenient for him to clarify that after his first statements conclusion didn’t push his narrative the way he wanted, and even more absurd that he essentially called me stupid for not knowing that I… according to him, also have these “natural urges”.
I’m thinking this whole thought process is his way of coping with his inner demons lol. I guess if he tells himself everyone has those thoughts, we’re all just fighting it off, and it keeps him from committing the act, it’s better than… the alternative?
Agree with you. Part of the whole point of the CNC fantasy is that it's enjoyable for both parties. Real life rape is actually sadistic - the rapist gets off on dominating someone *irrespective* of their wishes and enjoyment. As basic as it seems, the "pleasure" factor in sexual fantasy and kink is extremely important.
Something that is interesting to me is how people are perfectly able to understand this distinction when it comes to other kinds of imaginative play. Take any kind of cops/robbers or cowboys/Indians play (setting aside the political connotations for a moment 😂): does the person playing the robber actually WANT to be arrested or shot? Does the person playing the cop actually REALLY WANT to shoot or arrest someone? Obviously, they m*ight *want those things if they are psychologically messed up, but everyone understands that when you p*lay *in those ways it does not IN ANY WAY require desiring these things in real life. Yet when it comes to sex (🙀), this obviously fact just goes out the window. "Oh my god, this man and woman are roleplaying a CNC scenario - she's even telling him to stop! - he must really want to rape someone."
I have a consent fetish and have done a lot of CNC before. The reason I do it is because the amount of pleasure it gives to my female partners. The build up to it, like writing the contracts and having the discussions before hand I also love (playing into my fetish).
Whats fascinating to me is the juxtaposition of the 2. I do really struggle when the woman is screaming no no no and every alarm bell is going off in my head to stop. But I focus on the consensual aspect and I can bring myself back into it.
It took me a long ass time to say yes myself. Because my fetish really made it difficult. But with enough prep work for myself, I was able to find a way to enjoy it. Its not my favorite kink, but pleasing a woman beyond any man shes ever been with is. So it all comes together in the end :)
Hope that could offer some insight.
"not ALL men are misogynistic!! We just believe society was built on DV and rape, but if you react to that fact in any way that's not sucking my pee pee you're a misandrist."
I agree on the surface with this argument but research shows that women with rape fetishes don’t recover from rape any better than women without it. They experience similar levels of distress - in other words, it’s not adaptive. So why is it there? Epigenetic trauma? An extension of the male rapist gene she got from her father?
NAP - I firmly believe it is very similar reasons for men as to women: A) taboo = exciting OR B) taking back control (ie. After feeling rejected, but also possibly due to past trauma) - although in some cases with little empathy it could also be the corruption of power going to far, so a combination of A&B, or the limits of laziness (ie. No need to try, "I" only need to take)
It's because very few men have the fantasy, I believe rape fantasies are the most common fantasy among women, whereas they're actually quite rare among men
Well, men are often told by women “You don’t understand. Men don’t have to worry. Women have to think about rape ALL THE TIME. ..and hold our car keys between our fingers, etc..” I think an overwhelming majority of men don’t think about raping a woman, but there are some that do, so…
dated/lived with/almost married a girl with a SERIOUS rape fantasy.
we had sex pretty much 2x a night for 2-3 years. amazing sex life. truly amazing. i was 6'5 255lbs athletic as hell, she was like 5'0 95lbs. she would say 'no', or 'refuse' to remove panties 99% during sex for atleast 5-10 minutes. wanting me to choke her, hold her down, remove her panties by force, etc. she would try to 'squirm' out of initial penetration. sometimes she would even spit or slap or elbow me in the first few minutes of foreplay. which was kinda a 'plea' for me to get more rough which i usually would take the lead on. and then after like 30 seconds of the wrestle after penetration 'give in' and turn into like the most submissive/freaky/do whatever you want me to vibe. like a prolonged 'getting raped' foreplay every night. if we had sex maybe 1000+ times? like 990 of the times it was under this 'dance' of 'ravishment'. she was EXCEPTIONALLY loving, the most feminine and nicest soul -- but the sex was always under this format. the sex was INTENSE. she always would have bruises on her arms or throat, and all her friends would joke with me about it. which i was always a bit shameful or scared about. theyd say things like "wow , you got a little rough with again? hahahaha" or "what are you two up to? looks like a cat attacked you last night!". one of her friends even was constantly try to join in on a threesome. "i wish my boyfriend would throw me around like you do!" all the time. which we did once or twice. which although was very fun, it ended up causing some relationship problems and led me to cheating issues.
to this day, now 150-200+ girls later, married with 3 kids? i sometimes 'pin' my wife down and just slam it out while i pretend shes like a medieval villager that i am running thru the town as a viking. where she is not consenting at first, but slowly because of how hard im fucking/how strong i am, how weak her fellow villagerss are - 'gives in'. this is ALL in my mind. reliving the past excitement of 'ravishment' relationship. i never told her this is what i'm thinking. but the sex is good, and we have 3 kids, probably 4 soon all conceived in this type of mental framework. i 'go there' in my head ALOT. maybe most nights.
i never discussed this 'kink' with my wife and it was completely inherited from that past relationship. whenever i was with more 'submissive' women, i'd create somewhat of mental scenarios like this if things ever got a little stale or normal.
but i create these scenarios in my head all the time, to this day.
onwards.
Caring about reddit 'karma' is about as low as the human soul can sink. I can think of few things more pathetic.
And if you haven't been banned 100x from reddit? I truly do not value your opinion as it is not truthful. It's political.
Risk your fake internet points, and your even faker internet clout, to tell the truth. Sometimes the truth is risky.
Live your life young friend. I live in reality. Not redditopia.
Onwards!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy
Yes I know, wiki, but it has sources that are capable of being checked.
As far as I'm aware men and women are (roughly) equally likely to have ravishment fantasies, to various degrees of being realistic about rape, and are (roughly) equally likely to imagine themselves as the dominant or submissive. The assumption that women only get off to being raped and men only get off to being the rapist is a biased and outdated concept. Likewise, most of these fantasies are both less frequent and less about rape than some would think. Most people report around 4 forceful or less than consensual fantasies a month. The amount of people who primarily or very frequently have these fantasies multiple times a week is small.
Note that anywhere from 42-60ish percent of people report ever having one in their lifetime. They aren't even the most common fantasy to have according to some studies.
On the other hand, and noting this is primarily me getting this off my chest where I is on topic, I deep dived into all this wile researching CNC back in 2018. I also found a particular subreddit dedicated to rape kink that had a shit ton of people who genuinely looked for and shared videos of actual tapes, coached women on how to get raped/told them how hot their trauma was, and had plenty of people who professed to seeing rapists as idols. It was genuine enough for the mods to have to constantly take action against their community. The things stated and done by those people was extremely far from CNC, let alone any valid standards of conduct put forth by a BDSM community that isn't overrun by abusers.
I have a hobby of researching niche internet communities. Sometimes I find ons that seriously change how I see things, and the rape kink subreddit being a place where people ACTUALLY really really love rape was certainly one of them. Very often people will say that fantasy isn't reality of whatnot. Which is true. That just doesn't mean that what someone is into, or someone into something, is beyond criticism or is somehow bizarro world morally pure. If that were the case then hundreds of people who have "totally normal and fine" rape fantasies wouldn't be publicly trading recordings of rape.
I do CNC with my partners. I do not seek out communities that focus on it, or at least not ones that primarily engage with it and these fantasies as being a Rape Thing. Because they primarily are not, and taking things literally due to autism has saved my life from getting involved with shitty people many times. Highly recommend it.
I always found that rape subreddit sort of odd. It's unclear to me whether some of those people are actually just into the kink, or have some other problem.
If you want to research another niche internet community, have you ever looked into the "sexy death" community?
Death fetish erotica: r/GuroErotica
"Dark endings" roleplay discord: [https://discord.gg/y2z54r3D](https://discord.gg/y2z54r3D)
Femme Fatalities forum: [https://www.femmefatalities.com/phpBB3/index.php](https://www.femmefatalities.com/phpBB3/index.php)
Etc
Sorry about the late reply. I had written a comment soon after your response, but it disappeared after I checked another tab.
Actually, I like ero guro! I have a cannibalism kink as well, regardless of the erotic gore element, which started after I read Tokyo Ghoul. Something about sad obligate cannibals was really enthralling! But I'm not super into snuff/permanent death, or actually cooking someone whole, or vore in the traditional sense of swallowing something whole. I also vastly prefer it when whatever is happening is somehow consensual or enjoyed by the sub character. So that means a lot of ero-guro writing that would otherwise appeal to me is not.
Of course, art is much more open to interpretation. It's easier to fantasize that there's not fully realistic permanent harm done, or that the characters won't suffer a drastic quality of life decrease. As for dying and staying dead, where's the fun in ending the show? I'm more a masochist than a sadist, but either way I'd personally rather not ruin my own fucked up meat fucking experience.
Which I suppose loops back to the what I often find is a strange breed of hypocrisy. No, I definitely like everything I just talked about liking. The things I like about it are less about death or slaughter in particular and more about finding something romantic in... The inherent masochist edibility of human flesh, or something?
I think it's fascinating to try and capture the psychology of that too, in writing. But the ways I enjoy it and choose to interact with it in fiction aren't really possible to translate into reality. Outside of the reddit foot taco story, which itself isn't sexual. So unless medical care advances to the point that someone butchering me erotically isn't a potentially life ruining event, it obviously doesn't even meet my standards for fiction.
But, I'd still be lying if I said I didn't like gore. If it were possible to meet my "ethical" checklist then I would certainly think about it and consider it. I've written a semi accurate amputation scene, and in order to do that I researched amputation and even watched some videos of the process. Pretending that I was totally and completely not horny while learning about it would be really weird.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I keep this stuff in mind when interacting with other individuals who have kinks that go beyond edge play. Which honestly, regarding edge play, is enough for me anyway. There are plenty of ways to indulge in the "dictionary image of unsafe sexual desires" section of abnormal sex stuff as per BDSM and roleplaying.
Although I certainly recommend learning about psychology and going to therapy depending on the interest. For me there's an probably an underlying feeling of otherwise unattainable closeness and usefulness going on. I think it's good to be self aware about these things. The current moralizing of how kink is beyond criticism or can't even be examined bothers me a lot because of all that. Understanding yourself and even why BDSM as a historically developed practice is important... I think it's necessary in order to interact healthily with extreme or dangerous sexual desires.
I feel like from that point of view they may see it in their mind this way to justify the non-consensual parts -
They may think that the woman does not consent due to a reason that may be pushed aside, eg "but you're my step brother", "but I'm married", "but I'm gay", "but I'm a nun" - the idea is that they are so turned on by the guy or that the guy is so irresistible that they revoke their original "no". Doesn't make it right of course but kinks seem to go against morality rather than with.
I feel like most people that would fantasize about CNC would see it that way. The people who fantasize about CNC where the receiving partner doesn't consent all the way through and is broken at the end, that is where I would question their character and if they are a safe person.
I think it's legit to "question" the character of such a person, and my understanding is that this is a well-known issue that people are careful about with "Doms" in the BDSM community. But I don't think 100% of men into the dominating side of CNC fantasies should be stigmatized.
As I understand it, it can be a way for an individual to confront fear in a non threatening situation. It’s the same reason people love horror movies or pay money to go through a haunted house or binge true crime shows.
I’ve also heard that, for those who have experienced sexual violence, it can be a way to process trauma as they can work through the fantasy from a position of power (as opposed to the initial incident/s where they may have been victimized.)
I don’t see many people giving the answer I would. As a man this scenario is really only desirable due to the freedom to do whatever *I* wanted to do and not be so focused on her desires and wants the whole time.
for me, its similar but lowkey the opposite. First of all, im only into this stuff if shes the one to bring it up and she REALLY wants it. Shes giving me the control to do whatever I want with her, she WANTS me to take her however I want, and thats what pleasures her. Its like with cnc the "withdrawl of consent" is more of a consistent consent to do whatever you want. I have no fantasy about rape, I have a fantasy of being with someone that wants me to take them however I want whenever I want. Its hot for someone to want you that bad.
I always thought that I had a cnc kink. But I don’t think I do. Do I want to dominate a woman? No. Do I want her to let me do whatever I want? Absolutely! That just means I want to try different positions on the fly. I want to go between her mouth and vagina.
But I want a woman who wants that. Not necessarily the trying to get away and getting choked and slapped and eventually I take it. I’m a kinky lover, not a fighter.
I kind of assume the overwhelming majority are just actually rapey, but manage to not act on that because consequences, so they’re thrilled to get as close as possible without “actually” doing it. But that gets into some gray area. Like are they just really 100% not raping someone? I mean from the man’s point of view. Or are they kind of actually doing it? Kind of like porn “actors.” They’re acting…but like they’re actually having sex. I don’t know. But I’m just going from what I generally see from men in all facets of relationships, and it’s not great. So it would not be the least bit surprising if men who “fantasize” about raping someone are on the exact same wavelength as men who actually rape someone, the only difference being more self control.
Only speaking from experience I find that this kind of role playing is a chore. I don't really enjoy it but do it because it's brings so much pleasure to my partner. I'd much prefer puppy dog affection
I don't agree that ravishment is even a kink. It's an absolutely normal part of being a healthy sexual person. It is even very useful for developing one's own sexuality. It's like masturbation. It's practice for the real thing, though of course the real thing will be different from the fantasy. Even further, it is never necessary to act out a fantasy, or kink. Just because you're turned on by something, or someone, does not mean you should act it out in real life.
I’ve often wondered this very thing. I can have a bit of a “ravishment” fantasy in my head, but could never act it out because any guy willing to go there with me would immediately gross me out. Like I know why I want it, but why do you want it?
Maybe the only reasonable answer would be that they get the enjoyment from fulfilling the fantasy, not from the fantasy itself…
But yeah, wtf is going on with anyone who has a “ravisher” fantasy?!
I'll let you know when I find out! 😂😂
No but seriously when thinking about it in my head it seems like something I would really like but I'm 100% unsure how I would actually feel in the moment. I guess it depends on the trust level you have with the other person and what your preference is. I do wonder if there is some psychological reason that makes some people have that fantasy and why others don't. I might do some research on that.
My anecdote is this game was always her idea. I wanted nice soft cuddly sex, she wanted to pretend to be unconscious, or held down, or something. And if she didnt like it, then i wouldnt do it. We just want to be your friend and make you happy.
I think it's because there is a deeply sexist assumption that this is just how men really are. I mean it fits in with modern gender dynamic ideology of men being the villains. I mean a rapist is a pretty horrific kind of villain. However that couldn't just be an assumption on my part. I'm sure there are several different reasons why one would avoid that part. However I think at least part of it is what I said. Perpetuating the idea that men are all rapists at heart. Which of course is sexist horseshit but a whole lot of what is said about men these days is in fact sexist for shit so it's no big surprise.
i always thought but never hear it discussed that purity culture says women aren’t supposed to like sex bc it makes them whores. so women have to reconcile wanting sex with being a whore.
how to do this? have sex without wanting it. have sex without asking for it. fantasize about the kind of sex that doesn’t make you a whore. hence ravishment fantasy. if he forces it then shes not the one giving it away.
this way she gets to have sex and not be a whore in her own fantasy. who tf wants to be a whore in their own fantasy because of internalized misogyny? not me.
to me, if it’s not trauma based, ravishment fantasy is an obvious solution to the unfortunate double standard that women who want sex are whores.
I think the word ravish exists because humans are quirky. To ravish and be ravished implies a kind of unspoken consent that clashes with the current focus on consent concepts being overt and expressed. To ravish was to be consumed by lustful obsession with the ravished party. Their beauty, their charisma, or their presence in a significant, sexually charged moment inspired a love making so intense it demands to be expressed.
The ravished are themselves consumed. Like throwing a pebble and starting a landslide, the subject of a ravishing has inspired such desire in another that they are carried away by the force of it. It can't be resisted, and they don't want to resist. This is where the unspoken consent applies. The overwhelming force of desire washes over their inhibitions, conflicting emotions, whatever obstacle might exist that stands between the subject and their own gratification and desires.
Who wouldn't want to be so intensely desired by someone? Who wouldn't want to find someone to feel such intense passion for? The key is that on the other side, both parties truly wanted the ravishing to take place. It's just the factors around it that make the waters of that consent murky.
I don't remember where I read this but more women fantasize about being "ravished" than men fantasizing about "ravishing". Don't know if that's true but it's a statistic.
It’s not discussed because the feeling isn’t mutual.
The woman’s perspective is fixated on because it is more common and particularly subversive. It’s not so dissimilar to some hypothetical scenario where we discovered that the majority of black Americans fantasized about being enslaved and wished to reenact it so long as no eyes of judgement can fall on them.
It begs the question “What is all of this really for?” and creates an aspect of dread fascination for those with a masochistic urge to feel the most sacred ethical foundations waver like an actor who forgot their lines.
Huh, I wouldn't have assumed that those are the reasons why women have that fantasy. I would've assumed that it's about being attracted to someone who is powerful and assertive and who gets what he wants.
OTOH, I think that men like the idea of being irresistible, and this is the impetus behind both their fantasies of ravishing or being ravished.
A sex therapist explained to me that studying all fetishes is difficult because of tabboos associated with them. Again according to their explanation, fethishes develop because of associations. Feeling horny when you're staring at a blue dress? Boom! Baby wants blue velvet. Personally, I'm not sure I buy that its that simple, but that's what I was told. Fetishes just don't seem to be an area of human behavior we know much about. Then again, if you're interested, this internet writer collected whole bunch of self-report survey data from people about their fetishes. Here is a link to their substack: https://knowingless.com/.
Although that is an extreme rudimentary explanation it's kind of accurate in a way? It's the whole aspect of what fires together wires together. Again, a very simple explanation to a complex thing. I think Chris Hardwick explains fetishes perfectly in my opinion. "fetishes are just weird boner landmines you walk on in life. No one tells you, hey remember that harness you wore as a kid, THAT'S gonna come back later."
"Boner landmines" Imma have to steal that!
"A internet writer". While technically true, that might be under playing how much Aella writes, polls, and thinks about sex.
I have no clue who this person is, but it sounds to me like this person sexes.
https://www.reddit.com/u/AellaGirl/s/bcRSJtJhmD
One thing to consider is if your personality is a continent, your sexuality and preferences are more of an island bordering it. Yes, a person's history/environment absolutely does have bearing on future sexuality development. It's just that your behavior in other parts of your life is fairly isolated from your "sexual personality". The sexual circuits in your brain are fairly simple and easily confused; many studies have been done showing that the brain gets more aroused when it's afraid. Other forms of cognitive arousal can bleed into sexual activation in this stocastic way. Further, sex brain turns off a lot of higher cognitive functions and emotions like higher logic, morality, disgust, other character judgements, etc. Correlations between personality and sexual preferences are very weak. It's more interesting to study a person's higher personality outside of sex than to visit this island of sexual behavior and try to make grand deductions from it about a person and a way they think and behave.
Can the "island" make significant changes of its own, or is there a fundamental core that it doesn't drift too far from? For example, say a person has a lifestyle of polygamy early in life and for several years thereafter its discovery. Would this person be capable of a monogamous relationship in the future? Does early adulthood anchor the unshifting core of the island to what its exposed to? So many questions.
Absolutely. New sexual triggers and responses are all but guaranteed to be created throughout your life. The sexual parts of your brain learn like most other regions even if they are more simplistic in their processing and response to stimulus. You even learn to find certain faces more or less attractive as you age too. It's thought that your emotional experiences with certain facial features fundamentally augments your response to visual and facial related stimulus. A polygamous person will always be capable of polygamy where a monogamous person would not, but a polygamous person is never *incapable* of monogamy. They might end up preferring it as they age due to how complicated polygamous relationships are, but I'd be surprised if they "unlearned" polygamy. Unlearning anything is nearly impossible, usually you're "rerouting" (adding new things is far easier than removing old things), but even rerouting can be hard especially in the sexual domain. Like any parts of the brain, I think the sexual part of you "solidifies" as time goes on and is likely highly volatile at young ages. (I say likely, but there's been many studies showing this) Though this is more general brain stuff not exclusive to sexual circuits.
Aella is cool!
I feel like I should share this one since I came across it some time back from another angle. It's not just a fetish https://stainedglasswoman.substack.com/p/beneath-the-surface
The pavlovian explanation is the simplest
I really thought you were going to ask about the men who fantasize about being ravished! I don't hear much about that population, either
I (cis male) absolutely think my Catholic upbringing influenced my turn towards kink. I guess it’s not a sin if I have no choice, right?
I think this is another reason that people cite for this fantasy! whoever is being "ravaged" is free from culpability and thus can avoid the inner shame/moral judgement that might otherwise be associated with pursuing what they want in a more direct way :)
Yup! ContraPoints’ [latest video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48) covered this a lot from the perspective of written erotica. That is a major part of it for many people. The whole video is honestly great, best one she’s done in the last few years imo
Makes sense. I read this comment from a guy that thought his internalized homophobia explained his homoerotic cnc fantasies.
Yes, I agree. My catholic upbringing has influenced my kink as well.
Yes please, pin me down and take it.
Came here to say this
Butt there's other ways to go about it, too
Same here. I'm just a toy.
But do you mean this in a way where you'll act like it's not consensual?
Yes
Death by Snu Snu.
Ngl I think a big part of this is definitely the relief of the pressure typically put on men to be the one who directs the situation. Like a more extreme version of the same relief from femdom.
There are dozens of us. DOZENS!
came here to say this
As a man who considers myself to be a switch, I definitely have an appreciation for the CNC/ravishment kink both giving and receiving. It does seem among men to be a smaller demographic than women on the submissive side of things. There used to be a subreddit I'd lurk (now banned AFAIK) that focused on "role reversed" ravishment-type content, so basically coercive femdomy stuff, which I remember had a kinda sizeable amount of subscribers... Outside of that, I don't recall noticing much of a following dedicated to that kink, although it's def not uncommon to see hentai featuring men being taken advantage of.
Why am I learning about this magical place post mortem 😭
Looks like the one I had in mind is still banned for being unmoderated. However, I did just discover another [active subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/FMRP/s/VuPhdFGuxk) dedicated to the same kink! 😍
[удалено]
"FMRP," I added a link to the post you responded to, I wanted to double-check that I wasn't breaking any rule here. It's actually not *that* busy, but I'll add some posts to it in my spare time
I actually get a lot of them! Ask a dominatrix and they’ll tell you. Most of mine are very “embarrassed” about that kind of fantasy.
I'm curious. Why the quotes around the word "embarressed"? Are the men you referenced not actually embarressed about having that particular kink but rather role playing embarrressment as part of their kink? I hope my question makes sense lol.
Usually that’s the term they use. Or “ashamed” that their partners would lose respect for them if they knew about these fantasies and kinks. Sometimes they do want intentionally shamed in role play, but what I’ve encountered is many of them aren’t if there’s an element of anonymity. For instance online they will openly engage in kink or even meet up with others to do so. It’s really only the people closest to them that they feel the need to hide it from. They are really only embarrassed conditionally or for people to know that about them and not about the kink or whatever itself but the judgement they assume they will receive from the people who they care deeply about their opinions of them. When they are in the kink community online or in persona they really open up. Same as clients who say for instance were into being pegged but uncomfortable about anyone knowing then react very positively when their partner expresses interest in their fantasy, but can’t manage to bring it up first. When it comes to ravishment kinks it’s usually things we feel society doesn’t approve of (female sexuality and pleasure is commonly one of those things). In a CNC type scenario the “victim” has “no choice” and when they feel as though they have plausible deniability about having wanted whatever act then they can relax and let themselves enjoy it without the fear of being demonized or shamed for it. Since they aren’t the ones initiating whatever particular act then they can engage without shame or guilt.
Thanks for the taking the time to type that all out! It was very interesting and enlighting to read. I wish I had some of those reddit stars to give lol.
This is quite common among gay men. Of course with that group you still have a lot of guys who may feel sexually repressed or feel guilty about expressing their sexuality, especially as a bottom (which isn’t considered “manly” in many cultures). So being “forced” to do the thing you really want to do is a means of rationalizing it. Same reason why many gay and bisexual men will need drugs and/or alcohol to be part of the scene. It lowers the inhibitions and you can blame the substance for doing something that you’d “never ordinarily do.”
Great point, that also should be discussed. That said, I suspect the reasons are basically the same - taboo, reclaiming trauma, feeling desired, etc. There would be one opposite feature however, which is that while women would worry that the fantasy makes them a bad feminist etc., a man might worry that it makes him non-masculine.
Male sexuality is so much more nuanced than its given credit for, but we get scrutinized for very little under what we think of as "masculine" or not. If you like anal, crossdressing or Trans women, there's a very annoying possibility you'll be seen as "*gay.*" If you own sex toys, pay for porn or have a fondness for hentai, "*maybe some mental hang-up preventing him from being a real woman.*" And indeed, there's a certain level of vulnerability to engaging in submissive activities which can very humiliating if that side is exposed to the wrong type of person. Not in a fun way, an embarrassing way that could very possibly cause them to become more inhibited in the future out of that fear of being misunderstood.
I will admit I am one of those dudes. I would love to have a woman push me down and just use me.
I like going down on my boyfriend, id like it more if he grabbed me by the hair and gave a bit of a thrust
THANK YOU for asking this question! I don’t have an answer but I’m subscribed bc I wonder the same thing. It’s one reason I consider myself kinky but am not more involved with the community. Im a feminist and lots of kinky men are, but I’m sure there are men with this kink that genuinely hate women. I’ve met some 😬
For sure. But there are also women with this kink who have self-esteem problems etc. And psychologists and therapists are always at pains to explain how it can be OK to have a rape fantasy from the woman's perspective.
I think at the core of both sides of it is a desire to relinquish one's perception of themselves and the other. Women and men both experience a tug-of-war between their desire for sex and their fear of rejection by potential mates or by society. This fantasy allows both sides to allow their desire to overcome their inhibitions. Men can avoid the anxiety and shame of being undesirable or inadequate, and women can avoid the societal guilt and shame of being promiscuous or adulterous. ETA: I also think it's somewhat related to the so-called "call of the void." SA is generally agreed to be among the worst crimes (sins, even) one can commit or be subjected to. Once a man commits such an act, he is considered by most to be irredeemable, a predatory animal, less than human. Similarly, female victims of SA are often seen as nothing more than that. Fantasizing or roleplaying about such a thing can be a way of challenging one's ego or self-concept; a way of integrating the shadow.
The most important part about fantasies is that the person who is fantasizing is in control and outside of the situation. You remove the control part of the picture and it becomes rape.
I obviously agree with your point, but I think "consent" is a better term than "control." Even giving up/taking control is fine as long as it's consensual, and I'd wager that many with this fantasy would express a desire for exactly that.
>I think "consent" is a better term than "control." I actually think they're pretty distinct. Being sub and having submissive *desires* is a bit paradoxical: you want someone to do specific things to you, and in a way that makes you feel the *exact right* amount of safety, balanced with excitement. But wanting your partner to do specific things is *itself* an attempt at control, and the fantasy is about yielding control to them... It's hard to achieve this delicate balance with another person, but alone in your fantasies where you have total control and no worries about your partner crossing the line or you annoying them while "topping from the bottom", you can quite easily explore those feelings and understand them better. I do think that when exploring alone, control is a big part of what makes these fantasies safe and easier to explore. Meanwhile, when exploring with a partner, consent is obviously important as it is in any sexual encounter.
I know exactly what you’re talking about. My fantasies involve me being completely passive while allowing another person to do whatever they want to me. As part of the fantasy, I don’t want to have control over what they are doing, nor do I want to be able to stop them. That being said, I set up the fantasy so that they are doing exactly what I want them to do. I tried once to act out these fantasies with a partner, but I found that I was losing too much control, making the experience unenjoyable. I am only interested in the illusion of loss of control, where I’m precisely scripting how I choose to lose control.
May I add that both women and men may feel inadequate and undesirable as well as adulterous and promiscuous.
A good analysis of this from women’s perspective is actually [ContraPoint’s Twilight video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48), which explores erotica for women and why “ravishment” is such a common fantasy. It’s imo her best video in a few years and really fascinating. I am nonbinary (transmasc) and have this kink in both directions. For me topping in CNC is fascinating because I know my partners (mostly men) have many of the same conflicting desires (between what they logically think they should want and what they actually desire) and sometimes shame about it that drive me. Being able to give them what they want is a great feeling. Something I also see is that a lot of kink can be a sort of funhouse mirror for our fears (personal or cultural). I’m going to talk about this in gendered terms since that is the implication of the question, but there are plenty of people who break with the traditional gender expectations or (like me) are gender nonconforming in a way that doesn’t neatly fall into the binary assumptions around desire. Most women fear rape above most things, are taught how to try to avoid it from a young age, and that fear can dominate one’s life whether they’ve experienced it personally or not. Reclaiming the emotional space this fear takes up in a safe environment can feel liberating to some. There is of course the allure of being desired so much the person “can’t help themselves” and the emotional safety of not being responsible for one’s desires that is rooted in how women’s desire is often demonized in purity culture. I think for most men (certainly all the men I spend my time with) there is a near equal fear of violating a woman’s consent. This is both fear of self, as the way we talk about men’s desire is often equated implicitly with danger (that of course gets internalized in different ways), and fear of false accusations. I’d speculate when it comes to sex being raped or being seen as a rapist are the greatest fears of each gender. From that perspective it makes a lot of sense that this could form type of desire that is in line with what men are taught about themselves (as men are talked about as potential rapists constantly). To then have a partner who deeply desires CNC is also giving men the ability to explore that fear and desire in a safe context. Obviously this doesn’t go into every nuance of the appeal, but I think it explains why it is relatively common. I obviously don’t think it’s problematic to have a CNC kink from either perspective, sex and kink are often vehicles to process things from other parts of our lives that affect us deeply. But I do think the proportion of tops and bottoms for CNC who are men and women respectively is related to some of the often unhealthy ways we talk about desire based on gender. It is rational for women to fear rape, but it is possible for a reasonable fear to become an unhealthy fixation. Look no further than the gang stalking subreddit or how an obsession with true crime can lead to genuinely irrational and fully unhealthy responses to fear women experience. Honestly, even just the man versus bear discourse demonstrates this (perhaps controversial, but the number of people ignoring how much more dangerous a wild animal is… a little alarming). There is also the shame around women’s sexuality that makes it feel safer for many to “relinquish control” (while of course still having it via a safeword) than to pursue their sexual wants more directly. That shame is obviously harmful, kink is just one of the healthier ways to cope with it and reclaim sexuality. But frankly women aren’t alone in having their sexuality shamed. Where we treat women’s sexuality as a moral impurity, we flat out demonize men’s. It is seen as expected and natural for men to have desire, but that desire is seen as a threat and something dirty. We’ve seen some strides made towards normalizing women’s desire (which have been and are sorely needed) but men’s sexuality is still seen as crude, unemotional, and dangerous. Men are taught that they are a threat and that their desire is too from early on as well. In many progressive spaces we code women’s desire as something beautiful and empowering, but men’s desire is unfortunately unavoidable and disgusting. And the fear of being a rapist is taught early too. Women typically don’t worry too much about violating men’s consent, and men are taught that they should always want it. This isn’t because women are innately less able to violate consent, but because of misogyny that sees men as having all the agency and women none of it. Women don’t see themselves as capable of abuse and men don’t see themselves as capable of being victims. This doesn’t result in women not violating men’s consent - every man I know has been sexually assaulted by a woman. Even I have been, multiple times. It just results in less reporting (as men don’t have a good framework to process what has happened to then and women tend to not even realize what they’re doing is rape pr assault) and it being taken less seriously because men are on average stronger than women. But someone not physically fighting back against assault does not mean no assault occurred. This is an area where we need better education about consent that doesn’t only imagine men as perpetrators and women as victims. That itself is sexist and harms everyone involved in different ways. In many areas where we believe something is a women’s issue or a men’s issue, in truth the same experiences are much more equally distributed than we acknowledge. But we are not just what happens to us, we are often more defined by the stories we tell ourselves about those events. And our narratives have a significant gender skew that impacts men and women’s processing of and psychology around many shared experiences. It explains how these narratives can end up contributing to distributions of kink (though I don’t think they are wholly responsible or that it makes kink bad or unhealthy) but it also results in many negative consequences that men and women face. Eta: sorry, I realize my answer is much more sociological than psychological, but there is obviously overlap lol
This was a super interesting analysis, thank you. And believe it or not I've seen that Contrapoints video - it's great! Like her, I really appreciate the book by Michael Bader which she mentions.
last time i joined an app of this nature (not for something so hardcore , more to experiment) a man tried to r**e me, freaked the fuck out when i told him i wasn’t ready. would definitely not recommend these men
Straight cis man here. I dont have this exact fantasy - Im a fan of consent who would have guessed lol/smh - but I am absolutely a fan of being so overwhelmed by desire that my 'animal' aspect takes over. However, in my fantasies its because of my partner deliberately teasing/coaxing me to the point that I 'break' and overpower her in a mutually pleasurable and agreed upon context. I dont know what this fantasy is called but I call it 'The Table Turner' in that the partner in control and under control swap halfway through if that makes sense? Ive analyzed myself enough to theorize that for me this stems from several traumatic relationships in my formative years where I experienced emotional, physical and sexual abuse/humiliation/domination by girls/women and then when reaching out for help basically got the message from men either: 'lucky you' or 'grab your balls and put her in her place' and from women either: 'women cant be abusers/rapists' or: 'serves you right you penis-having pig!' but the straight up 'assaulting a random woman' thing is as opposite a turn-on as it gets for me. i want my animal lust returned to me enthusistically by my partner as we both 'win' and get what we want as each of us exchanges one form of control and surrender for another/each others. I hope that makes sense?
Makes perfect sense and if the OP wants a real answer, this is it.
Do you really think that you have this kind of fantasy because of trauma? If so, I feel sorry for you because I can't see any way that is true. You seem like a perfectly normal man with healthy testosterone. I seriously doubt that your fantasy is from your emotional trauma. From my perspective, it is just lust, which is driven by testosterone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it is not a sign of some underlying unhealed trauma, in my opinion.
Thanks for the weigh-in. You may be exactly right and that its not related, that was another possible conclusion I came to when I was analyzing myself some years back. I certainly dont feel any shame about it or anger/rage toward my real or imagined partner, its very much an 'aggressively joyful' place to be! I did have an ex who was more into the straight-up cnc/degradation stuff and part of why I ended things was because I realized she was trying to turn me into her past abusers by being abusive to me. Nope, check please lol!
OK, great. thanks. If I was you, I'd focus on completing my grieving over what happened in my past. Grieving, for me at least, is critical to having a happier future. I developed something I call Intentional Grieving, if you're interested. It's just something I learned on my own. I'm not selling anything.
I think abuse in isolation has low explanatory power for narrowly-scoped behaviors, like particular kinks. There's good scientific evidence that abuse in childhood can lead to various personality disorders like borderline, narcissism, socipathy, etc. But outside a broader clinical picture of many related behaviors I think it's hard to draw firm conclusions about what particular experiences lead to what. Abuse is sadly very common, and while it might seem the logical explanation for a particular person's adult kinks in their particular life context, what about all the people who had very similar experiences in their formative years but aren't interested in it, at all? There are 8 billion people on the planet, so they're definitely out there. >that was another possible conclusion I came to when I was analyzing myself some years back. There are all sorts of connections one could make about whether this one abusive incident lead to liking a certain brand of socks, and this one bad relationship lead to a hatred of country music, and all sorts of plausible chains of causality that finally don't make much sense to deeply speculate on. The therapists I've found most helpful for the most part politely refuse to speculate on stuff like this, and might point out that sinking too deep into these kind of thoughts and figuring every proclivity must have a well-defined origin, as one of the hazards of self-analysis. Without guidance it can be easy to lose the forest for the trees.
I believe the catharsis during grieving is the one true way to heal from trauma. Intellectual solutions merely plaster over the actual issue. Catharsis is currently out of fashion as a healing modality, but it was, in fact, common for decades and has been successfully used in clinical practice for at least as long. Grieving trauma is one of the most powerful ways I know of to heal it. It's an emotional process, not an intellectual one.
Micro-analyzing the origins of behaviors doesn't make much sense. I think abuse in childhood has explanatory power for adult behaviors, but only in a broader clinical picture. Meanwhile these kind of fantasies are absurdly common, and sadly abuse is absurdly common, too.
I agree that intellectually pursuing our behaviors through micro-analysis is not useful. Grieving however, is extremely useful in my experience. Grieving over what happened to us, which is an emotional process and not an intellectual one, has been very useful for me. The world of grieving is much bigger than I think most people realize.
>The world of grieving is much bigger than I think most people realize. Oh, yes. Grief and shame, the two big ones. My late mother was a social worker and had a shelf full of books on the topics, I'll likely never be able to read anything but a small fraction of it, I'm a much slower reader than she was. There's a lot I wish I could ask her about the topic now, but will never have a chance...I was just a dumb kid when she was reading them all herself, in the confidence of youth I thought it was a silly preoccupation. There is grief..
Yep, that is my most fantasized about scenario.
I quite like the tables turned thing as well! I also connect some of my own desires to growing up around a highly domineering female presence (which also dominated the male authority in my life) - so I think these experiences can be cathartic reversals of that. I also agree about the "assaulting a random woman" thing not being appealing. For one thing, I think a crucial part of the typical ravishment fantasies on both ends of it is that everyone is enjoying themselves. This is a distinguishing feature of fantasy that "makes it ok" in the imagination, according to Michael Bader.
Ahh, this is the natural and reasonable other side of the coin! Thank you for your answer- I’ve always struggled to understand the male perspective in this in the past. It’s actually pretty hot (and basically what the girl is fantasizing as well. He’s so overcome that her forcibly pleasures you both)
I replied somewhere else already and touched on some of this, but in response to the people telling you that your experiences can’t be related to your kink: traumatic/formative experiences aren’t a one-to-one with kink, but I think the narratives we tell ourselves (individually and as a society) around those experiences absolutely can be related. You were given a specific narrative to understand your experiences (a shitty victim-blaming one at that) and it’s possible that one way you processed that dissonance was to find a situation (this kink) in which that logic would make sense. I think a lot of people want to shy away from talking about any way in which kink and trauma might be related because of potential for stigma and a misunderstanding of what that relationship would imply. It’s understandable and is usually done to avoid demonizing kink or trauma victims, but I think many kinky people would strongly disagree. And it’s a bit annoying to essentially be told we don’t know ourselves as much as a complete stranger on the internet does lol. People process trauma in all sorts of different ways, and especially when society or just those around us enforce a narrative about what we went through (whether it downplays or overly fixates or just misunderstands) it makes sense that sex/kink might be one of the ways we try to make sense of how our experience conflicts with this narrative, or even just our own complex feelings related to what happened. I think the same can happen when we don’t personally go through a trauma, but are surrounded with fears and narratives like those around gender that conflict with how we see ourselves. I don’t think it’s necessarily always the case, but so many kinky folks also use their preferred types of play as a way to work towards a resolution between our sense of self and the view of the other and the narratives others apply to us.
Think sometimes you can develop an interest in the kink of your partner via participation. I've never been interested in BDSM but I've had partners who are super interested in it and I wouldn't be sad if I never did it again but I do really like doing that with my current partner in part because she gets so excited that then I get so excited.
This 100%. I’m pretty vanilla. The “kinks” I do have are pretty tame. But the main one is to please. What turns him on, turns me on. His arousal is my foreplay.
>But the main one is to please. This is me. Whoa.
I think you're close to the truth with your assumption/guess, OP. Though I would change a few important terms. It's not assumed necessarily that all men would enjoy forcing themselves on someone- it's more *understood* that we live in a patriarchal society where men are taught and encouraged to be assertive, forceful, dominant in all walks of life. Even the people who don't want to admit this patriarchy exists *understand* on a subconscious level that it's assumed to some degree boys want to be in charge. But there's also just the general, non gendered fact that a selfish person just takes what they want. Giving oneself up, being vulnerable, is difficult for everybody on some levels. As humans, in general, it's assumed that taking what we want is more instinctive than *wanting* to be "victimized" or "overpowered." We all start life with the instinct to take what we want, to a degree. Even if it's just, other kids toys, or food, or whatever. Whereas it's not an assumed behavior to make ourselves receptive to... Invasion. Domination. Control. This would be my guess. Another possibility is that, up till more recently, science in general was a field dominated by men who would gatekeep women out of the conversation. A lot of the studies and books were written by men, and they're doing research on the thing they have more bias of curiosity for; women and their behaviors. Of course, a lot of that stuff is being challenged by modern psychologists. But enough of it is left over that it still makes up a lot of the available study materials. Btw this is all kind of just my thoughts on the subject. I am not a psychologist lol
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That would be very interesting to read, thanks fro the suggestion.
I would be really surprised if the fantasy were just as common in the other direction. I.e. there are probably many more men who consent to the request from their partner than make the request of their partner.
100%. I like being rough and primal, but 99% of the kinks I’ve engaged in have been on the woman’s request. I’m not in the camp of pressuring women at all, so I just match where they’re at go along for the ride. I’ve been shocked at how kinky that goes 🤣🤣
This is what I've seen and heard. Those first years of dating were sort of traumatic. The most common requests I had from women were this, choking and daddy fetish stuff. I had naively gone into it thinking I'd find love, get married and live happily ever; not be pressured into wearing a balaclava and roleplaying sexual assault by my girlfriend. None of that was ever on my radar.
I don't know; the guy above you said "men want to rape naturally." 😬
Been there done that. It’s honestly very tiring. No, there isn’t a part of me that wants to reenact rape.
The only reason im into is because women are lmao I get off on getting people off so if I have to be a bit more forceful in the moment so be it.
I once heard it could be due to guilt, like being raised catholic and not wanting to be a "slut" when it comes to sex. But the idea of all that attraction and tension building up to the point of being "taken" isn't the same thing on paper, so to speak! Glad they changed the terminology. A ravishment fantasy isn't technically rape, because the person doing the fantasizing is actually in control of the whole scenario. Interesting that men don't fantasize about it in the same way, maybe because it's too "emasculating"? Like being a bottom in a gay relationship isn't "masculine" in a straight sense. But I suspect men are more reluctant to admit wanting this kind of thing, that's why otherwise powerful men in regular life seem to enjoy secretly visiting dominatrices?
I'm astonished to see no one mention this historical and cultural angle to this question. For the vast majority of human history, slavery, warfare, and rape were the norms of society. When a Roman army went on campaign, it expected to take any prisoners as slaves, and that the women would be raped as a matter of course. When Vikings raided your village, the expectation was that any women would be ravished before being sold. Across many cultures, the abduction of women was a way for a man to obtain a wife without needing to pay a dowery price to her family. Is it really any wonder that some men, frustrated with the pageantry and rejection so common in modern courtship, would fantasize about a time when simply being strong and clever enough to capture his prize was justification enough to take it? Throw in the fantasy of "taming" the woman with his sexual prowess and "making her love it" as a demonstration of his own desirability and ability to please, and it's easy to see where the appeal comes from. On top of all of that, this worldview is deeply unacceptable under social norms (and rightly so), so there is the appeal of the forbidden and breaking the bonds of society to indulge in desires.
I do think that this is probably an important component. Another thing is this: Women will reasonably roll their eyes at the idea that the domination of women is taboo, given how "normal" it is in society historically, but a man today raised in a relatively liberal/progressive family who absorbs largely mainstream Hollywood content is bombarded with nonstop girl power/girl boss/"badass bitch" imagery and language and characters. So, even though it's ludicrous to think this way historically, a scenario in which a woman is dominated and she likes it is actually very "taboo" in some contexts.
This. A thousand times this. The elephant in the room. Humans weren't created from scratch yesterday. And human nature doesn't change on human timescales. t
Ew
I’m sure there are many, many answers, but sticking with a popular theme, people say *some* women have ravish fantasies because it absolves them of cultural or religious guilt of their desire. And I would wager at least some people have the complementary fantasy of “I was overcome with desire” which in a conservative context still gets you in trouble but with the understanding and mitigating factor that these things do happen
That's an interesting concept. "I couldn't control myself" or "I dont have to control myself" must be somewhat of a relief for men who are continuallu having to exercise self control
It's probably biology considering most mammals have fucked up, "might is right" sexual dynamics... but nobody is going to be comfortable with that.
I'm sure that's an element of it, but there are some men who really enjoy "ravishing" a woman and other men who are made uncomfortable by it. The place to explain this is psychology.
As OP said. Part of the “Ravish me” side of it is 100% that a large part of (Good) sex is based around feeling sexy/beautiful/desired. What they are kind of missing is that the male side of that is often feeling “Virile.” That’s the male side of it. In the actual kink the simple answer is. The person being taken wants to feel desired and like the other person wants them so much they can’t hold back. The person doing the taking wants the same thing. They just want it from the other end, they want to be someone that someone else WANTS to take them. Even if social norms won’t let the person admit that. The whole thing is basically cultural guilt kink.. Thank you from coming to my Ted talk.
I have a pretty strong "ravishment" kink that I'm about 90% sure is a direct result of my lack of success with the ladies as a teenager. The thought of just saying "fuck it" and taking it is pretty 🔥 to me.
I think this is exactly the sort of psychological role for these fantasies that ought to be explored more. In this case, what the fantasy does is cathartically reverse/fix the problem of rejection by attractive women, but with the guilt/shame-freeing element that they really enjoy it in the fantasy.
The act of rape is seen as being a power thing, and I think that plays into the attractiveness of ravishment for men. They have a safe space to "take" in a consensual way that does not make them monsters. It is similar to the idea behind the psychology of loving horror; you are capable of experiencing trauma without it being done upon you, and in an environment in which you can stop it at any time if it becomes too much to handle.
Totally agree about the horror connection especially.
Remember kids the fantasy is always better then the reality.
Lol yes but that is also part of the point in this case. When it comes to "bad" fantasies, the mind usually has everyone enjoying themselves. Hence the importance of the consensual context overall, even if you're playing nonconsent in the fantasy.
Honestly, I think there’s a tendency to pathologize women more than men. I think it’s a (VERY tangential) spinoff of victim-blaming. I don’t think the researchers are bad people, but I do think that’s why there’s more interest on one side. I think you’re right that some consider it “culturally obvious”. The most surprising thing I’ve learned is that women seem to be more “into it” than men. Meaning she asks for it and he plays along because he likes that SHE likes it, but he has no strong desire for it himself. This is purely my anecdotal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think it started with the assumption that it was obvious why, and has shifted to being mostly due to how controversial the idea of a man enjoying that is. Though the rebranding as CNC might help, as it is far less stigmatized.
Why isn’t this talked about? It’s fairly straightforward. Rape is about control. Rape fantasies are just another dom type fetish. Women can have this fantasy too. It’s not a mystery. It’s not uncommon. It’s just socially less acceptable. You’re asking questions about social norms.
That's such a cliche, and so incomplete as to be effectively not true. It never seems to occur to people who repeat this old canard to even try to understand what the reasons are that people have these desires. In the case of women, it's very common to fantasize about rape for multiple, overlapping reasons. The idea that a man finds her so attractive he can't control himself is often cited, but I think that's secondary or tertiary. The usual mechanism is that the illusion of being forced to have sex by someone stronger than you are removes your feelings of guilt and 'dirtiness' for choosing to have sex. If it's not your choice and you can't make it stop, then there's no room in your head to feel guilty about it. Because of this, it's not at all uncommon for women with rape fantasies to be inorgasmic without the illusion of being forced. In other words, NO, it's typically not at all "about control." That's a man's impetus for genuine rape, and we're talking about the female proclivity for rape fantasy; the two are entirely different. The latter is about shedding feelings of responsibility that inhibit pleasure.
The thing is that in actual CNC (consensual non-consensual) fantasies, it's the "victim", who holds all the power. At any point they can say "stop", and everything ends right there, no questions asked, no hurt feelings. It's kind of an extreme extension of BDSM or sub/dom dynamics.
I think it is because coercion is such a huge part of life and the sexual/non-sexual realms are not as discrete as people would like to believe. Eroticizing the act of rape is also eroticizing the times we have been mentally, emotionally, behaviorally raped. In the sense that all work is prostitution, coerced generativity, etc. I think it is as much the enactment of a rape to dissumulate the ways in which we are all rape victims for example. Emotional rape is a controversial category but it shouldn't be. Penetrative coercion obviously can manifest as emotional abuse, and in that sense our whole society is built on emotional rape
Wow, you just called everyone out and you’re not wrong 😆 Sex is definitely a fun outlet for intense emotions that aren’t socially acceptable.
Well it helps me a lot not to stigmatize my own fantasies and porn use. For example to realize that in a coercive scenario I am eroticizing my own sense of being coerced as much as I'm imagining coercing someone else. It allows me to see that I'm also identifying with the one being dominated in the scene. That might be hard to handle because as horrifying as a male rapist is, a male rape victim is also horrifying, like a man who cries and no one knows what to do about it. It gets at our societal fantasies of what people are supposed to be like. The reality is that we are all vulnerable, all susceptible to influence and coercion. Actually another thing I think about a lot is that the line between coercion and just taking initiative is pretty fuzzy. Any time you start talking to someone about something you can't really get consent. It's like saying "can I ask you a question?" Well, you already did. It's really agonizing to be in a world which seems to require some kind of intervention but to take seriously the fact that getting people to grapple with tough subjects is to inflict a kind of trauma on them. But we all do this all the time anyway, from horrible scenes of people mistreating service workers to withdrawal and refusal to engage. In that way we "inflict" our absence. It's the equivalent of not acting being an action. Not taking the initiative is taking the initiative. Not coercing is coercion by depriving people of your own intervention. That's kind of nuanced but I promise I mean it in good faith, not to muddy the waters but to really dwell on what it means to act without someone else's signing off, and the agony of knowing that it's not really possible to get permission for everything.
This is a really thoughtful question, so I’ve tried to give it some serious thought before responding: I’m an ameuter historian, just a few days ago I came across a book from 1885 which strove to depict ancient marriage traditions (tradition behind the veil the flowers etc). One part that stuck out for me was that up until the third century, in England the bride was prepared in the morning as she prepares now but one part of this was that her hair was to be let down and parted with a spear, this was a throwback to when “marriage was achieved by capture” - for those that are unaware, hair being shown was a very intimate guesture, in tapestries depicting rape (like the bayeux tapestry the woman is shown being dragged along by her hair which is unbound) Secondly the tradition of a “best man” is ancient too - this was when the groom saw a young woman he liked, invited his best man to help to kidnap and hold her prisoner while the groom raped her. Once he had held her prisoner past the ten day mark, this is the point where the girls parents would stop looking for her and accept that she was now married. These ten days are the origins of the “Honey moon” In modern days young men have a common fantasy where they are in a dangerous situation where they need to rescue the woman they are fantasising about, the satisfying conclusion for the young man is then having rescued her, he has sex with her in a highly charged emotional state. In conclusion, ravishment is part of the human psyche, but in our more enlightened times, we are aware it is no longer socially acceptable and if done wrongly causes a lot of mental trauma. In the confines of a healthy relationship, it can be explored safely. My husband tells me he loves ravishing me because he feels very powerful and in control, he loves how feminine I am which he can envelop with his masculinity.
I think its important to note that thses arent necessarily true. I have heard different on the origins of honeymoons ,for example. When a couple was married (the story did not say explicitly but it was implied to be a love match) they would be given a month (lunar cycle) off from the requirements of village life and its chores, and given a private space away from the people, and as much mead as they would want. Mead (honey) month (moon).
Yes I m sure there are other connections that evolved such as you say mead which then turned into wedding ale for the wedding night then into the general knees up we have today.
It’s disturbing how power and rape have been used as weapons against women in ways that completely shape and change women’s own relationship with themselves and their sexuality. Luckily, this is something that we can change if we want to, but it is so ingrained in our culture and our species because of male violence, that it seems insurmountable.
Why was your comment downvoted? I absolutely agree.
Yes I utterly agree, for too long rape has been sexualised and sensationalised.
I also have MASSIVE BEEF with the idea that femininity is submissive, passive, objectified, weak, etc. Look at female animals. They are not weak and passive and objectified. They are fierce and strong and active. I’ve never related to this bs idea that femininity means weak and masculinity means strong. I’ve never met weaker men than those who believe being men makes them superior or powerful or gives them some sort of strength beyond just the capacity for greater muscle mass.
I feel like you and I should be friends irl lol. The whole idea of femininity = weak, idiotic etc is a pile of shit. Foisted upon us from William the conqueror and enforced by insecure males ever since. I found Philippa Gregory new book “Normal Women” very thought provoking, highly recommended.
Thanks for the book recommendation!!! And you seem awesome and I’d love to be friends with you 😁 I’ll be getting my hands on that book asap!
Do you have any sources for what you say about the origins of the terms 'best man' and 'honey moon'? Because those sound like complete myths.
Yes I do I can dig them out for you.
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How would you recommend women identify these men so that we can successfully avoid them if we would like to?
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Think this conversation is too controversial? The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen”. Lite pedophilia. There’s a lot of shit that we haven’t come to terms with yet as a culture.
>The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen” Is this actually true? I've only ever seen people on reddit say this. Pornhub's year in review shows milf as being number 2 most searched for term and I don't even see teen on the list. [https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2023-year-in-review#top-searches-pornstars](https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2023-year-in-review#top-searches-pornstars)
It's true. Pornhub took it out.
That has nothing to do with my topic. I'm talking about serious discussion by psychologists and sex therapists.
>The #1 most profitable porn category is “Teen”. This does not seem to be accurate. It actually appears to be specific fetish vids that are rare (but I'm happy to not know what those are). Teen was the most searched for on porn hub a few years back by males, but then "milf" and "mature" were separated, and both right behind "teen" so if you put them together they'd vastly exceed teen.. >There’s a lot of shit that we haven’t come to terms with yet as a culture. I mean, our legal and cultural system does a pretty good job compared to other cultures where child marriage is both legal and normal. It could be a lot worse.
As a note, child marriage is only fully banned in 12 states. It is less common in the US sure, but it still happens.
Well, one party keeps trying to ban it, and the other keeps saying "parental rights".
This guy also hasn’t considered that “non-teen young adult” just isn’t a category simply because it’s the default unless otherwise specified. It’s so common that it doesn’t make sense to use it as a category. If every video with an actress of that age range was tagged with that category, then it would be overwhelmingly the most common of all categories by a wide margin.
Bro, on the sites it's all step parent or sibling. Lite Incest. This to need to be looked at.
Disclaimer- I haven’t finished it yet, but I would recommend checking out the book [Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies by Michael Bader](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/913230)
Great book! Extremely important for me personally.
Wouldn't it be the power and domination aspect? I know traditional rape is done, not because of attraction, but because the men enjoy the power/domination/degradation/humiliation aspects of the assault. I'd always assumed that someone with a cnc kink enjoys those aspects as well, but doesn't want to go to prison for it/still has some humanity intact and their non-horny brain knows they don't actually want to harm anyone. I've not read any books on it or anything, though. So that is just my uneducated guess. Edited to add, Similarly, I don't think women who enjoy this kink like it because they think they're so beautiful the man can't help himself. More like, they get off on the vulnerability, powerlessness, and complete domination aspects. The inability to say no. I could see some women with deeply held purity culture bullshit struggling with sex to the point that they develop this fantasy because they want to have sex, but morally have to say no. But again, just my uneducated guess, as a woman who grew up in purity culture.
> I could see some women with deeply held purity culture bullshit struggling with sex to the point that they develop this fantasy because they want to have sex, but morally have to say no. A number of men also seem to assume all women with rape or domination fantasies are victims of trauma or otherwise "damaged" in some way, perhaps to assuage the existential anxiety of the thought that the women who have them, tend to prefer to engage in those experiences with men who aren't them. They're probably right about the second part, at least.. >But again, just my uneducated guess, as a woman who grew up in purity culture. There are so many women out there that grew up in otherwise loving healthy families without that culture, who are also into kink, that unfortunately I tend to think the men most inclined to try to be a "teacher" to a woman with a purity-culture history, often tend to be the least qualified for the job. In a different world, all doms might be required to have character references. The general concept makes some sense in this one, too.
I’m not sure if this is helpful, but I have personal experience with this from 3 different angles. 1. I’m a successfully published author of dark romance that caters to those enjoying rape fantasies. I make a very comfortable living, meaning that the amount of women drawn to that fantasy is significant. Discussions with my readers revealed that they are drawn to the idea of a man finding them so irresistible, he can’t control himself. Mind you, this isn’t about the ravishing act itself. In this kind of fiction, the guy usually has attractive qualities, and he won’t leave the woman behind used and possibly pregnant. No, he is so obsessed with having her, he takes care of her. He feeds her, provides shelter, and sticks around for child-rearing. Far from the reality of what victims of this crime usually experience… Another aspect is that a guy capable of such an act is typically ruthless. A villain or morally gray (or even pitch black) character, capable of keeping other, perhaps worse, guys away. There are some readers who are drawn to this fiction because of a traumatizing past experience. However, those are the exception, and not the norm. 2. I happen to have a male friend who has a cnc kink. He loves nothing more than overpowering a woman… especially when she tosses, turns, screams, and struggles. Mind you, he is one of the most respectful men I ever met. The women set the boundaries, and he accepts them no problem. Most women would also consider him above average attractive. One of god’s blessed sons at a height of 6’5’’ and muscular built. We did a lot of talking about why he enjoys this kink. He himself is baffled, and says that, to him, it’s about having control. Something interesting I noticed is how he once mentioned how chaos ensued when his parents split up when he was at the height of puberty. Another male acquaintance with the same kink explains that it’s about turning around mate choice for him. About the power to take that choice from a woman and make it for her. Also a very respectful man, btw, who is surprisingly gentle and loving outside of this kink. 3. Some would say that I’m an aspiring cougar. The men reaching out to me can be as young as 18 or 19, many of them virgins. A surprisingly large amount of them are aroused by the idea of an older woman taking their virginity through “ravishing”. Most of them say that the idea of being so desirable, an established woman can ignore their lack of resources, makes them feel incredibly wanted and valuable.
You do hear about it, but it is just in a different context, so probably in another genre of books, but it is generally brought up as an example of how awful men are. But you are missing some that they don’t talk about as much, which is women who enjoy ravishing men and men who enjoy being ravished. This is quite common as well, and almost never pathologized the way it is with the genders reversed.
Yes, I agree that only one desire in the different matchups is apathologized and stigmatized, but that is my point.
I would say that both sides of it are fairly obvious, for millions of years this dynamic would have been the norm. At the very least it would have been the norm before language was invented. This just looks like the average double standard for men and women that you see all over.
I do not fantasize about ravishing a female but my gf is into it so we will role play with the idea of her trying to get away, this info doesn’t affect this topic much but it does slightly make me think deeper into the fetish lol I don’t care for forcing myself on her or even have thoughts about it, but when the time comes I do enjoy watching her get turned on by how strong I am
"I do enjoy watching her get turned on by how strong I am" - I think this is a good example of two different erotic templates having overlap. Taking what you say seriously, you may not have the ravishment kink but you do find it erotically exciting that a woman would be turned on by your strength. So this ends up being a natural area of overlap, since "ravishing" involves exerting strength. Michael Bader talks about these sorts of sexual compatibility possibilities in his book *Arousal*.
Gay man here. Love ravishing and being ravished. What's sexier than someone screaming in protest? I feel like, at a low level, this is common for many gay men. Not nessesarily full "ravishment" but like, definitly a rough sex or first-time sex kink
The thing to remember is that all forms of fantasy is consensual in your head. People being ravished in their fantasy want it. So that’s why the term is not “rape,” because rape by definition is non-consensual. And ultimately this is rooted in gender norms: it’s culturally acceptable to be sexually submissive and female. It’s less culturally acceptable to be sexually submissive and male.
Yep. People often miss the psychological significance of the enjoyment/pleasure component. It's one of THE distinguishing features between fantasy and problematic ideation when it comes to "bad" actions.
I think you might be surprised how many men don't have this kink. I base this on my, 42M, experience with women whose men aren't aggressive enough to satisfy them. I have definitely become more aggressive during sex because it is what women want, not necessarily because it was a kink of mine.
I thought the reason the women's side of it was talked about so much more is cause it's way more common than people think. A lot more women have rape fantasies, not necessarily actually participating in CNC just the fantasy, then men have raping fantasies.
That is true, and probably part of the explanation. Though if you look at how this topic comes up in sex psychology and therapy books, it's often in the context of women being worried that the kink reflects something bad about them like self-hate or being a "bad feminist" or "really" wanting to be dominated in real life. What's odd to me is that there is so little discussion of similar concerns for men - surely a man, or people who know the man, may be worried that his kink of ravishing reflects something bad about him like misogyny!
Yea I mean I'm not saying it's not worth discussing. It's just a major difference in scale, if I had to guess the amount of women fantasizing about being the sub in a rape fantasy is an order of magnitude higher than the amount of men fantasizing about being the dom in a rape fantasy.
Because we live in a double standard society and as men our thoughts, fantasies, evolutionary drive is wrong, gross and sexist. That’s why they probably don’t talk about. Sounds fun to me but only if it’s consent of course, lol.
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I’m curious how u feel then about a lot of women generally fearing men? I’m in a lot of feminist spaces where these things are viewed as social conditioning/effects of patriarchy, and not inherent or biological. There’s often a lot of men who get very defensive that it’s not all men, men aren’t dangerous monsters etc, which I agree with, or Id like to. So from ur perspective, I understand that not all men act on these urges, but how are women supposed to… just accept that “men want to rape naturally”? How could I not hate men if that was true?
It’s 100% bullshit. This comment’s gonna be abrasive linguistically, but I’m mad at the topic not you. Who you’re responding to completely ignores the man’s moral compass. I enjoy engaging in ravishment fantasies, because some women love them and the power is fun. It’s CNC for a reason though—underlying consent is implicit to the kink. Without consent, it turns from mutual fun to horrific abuse. Those are incomparable. Ravishment fantasies are not the same as wanting to rape someone. Actual rape fucking disgusts me. Any man who has a moral compass thinks of rape as utterly repulsive and would never have the temptation to commit it. I can safely say that I’ve never had the urge or thought to rape a woman in my life and I’d probably kill myself if I did. I’d be a monster at that point imo. Don’t believe it, this man’s on some bs. If you have a moral compass, that wouldn’t be a thought or temptation. “Wanting to rape” is utterly repulsive and not the standard in today’s modern society. You’d have to override social conditioning since birth to actually “want” that and that’s a reflection of one’s character. Don’t believe it for a second. We’re evolved, modern humans—not Neanderthals with limited cognitive capacities. That argument’s enablement “boys will be boys” bs Edit: read his next comment. He’s an incel, 1000%
Hi, thank u for responding, and don’t worry, I wasn’t going to believe him, I just wanted to see how he tried to rationalize that for women to feel safe. I totally understand the difference between CNC and actual rape obviously, and I don’t believe “men naturally want to rape”, or at the very least, in light of this dudes take, definitely not all of them, but maybe some 😬. Even if that was true about all men (it’s not), believing it would fundamentally change my entire life, terrify me, break all trust I have in any men, and lead to me mentally spiraling, so…. For my sanity I wouldn’t want to believe that anyway. I was just curious if he could have a take like that, but then also expect women to trust and respect men? Apparently he does, even tho that’s entirely contradictory. Also, apparently his whole spiel about male animals raping females, ending with “men want to rape naturally”, actually meant “women and men want to rape naturally”. Seems convenient for him to clarify that after his first statements conclusion didn’t push his narrative the way he wanted, and even more absurd that he essentially called me stupid for not knowing that I… according to him, also have these “natural urges”. I’m thinking this whole thought process is his way of coping with his inner demons lol. I guess if he tells himself everyone has those thoughts, we’re all just fighting it off, and it keeps him from committing the act, it’s better than… the alternative?
Agree with you. Part of the whole point of the CNC fantasy is that it's enjoyable for both parties. Real life rape is actually sadistic - the rapist gets off on dominating someone *irrespective* of their wishes and enjoyment. As basic as it seems, the "pleasure" factor in sexual fantasy and kink is extremely important. Something that is interesting to me is how people are perfectly able to understand this distinction when it comes to other kinds of imaginative play. Take any kind of cops/robbers or cowboys/Indians play (setting aside the political connotations for a moment 😂): does the person playing the robber actually WANT to be arrested or shot? Does the person playing the cop actually REALLY WANT to shoot or arrest someone? Obviously, they m*ight *want those things if they are psychologically messed up, but everyone understands that when you p*lay *in those ways it does not IN ANY WAY require desiring these things in real life. Yet when it comes to sex (🙀), this obviously fact just goes out the window. "Oh my god, this man and woman are roleplaying a CNC scenario - she's even telling him to stop! - he must really want to rape someone."
I have a consent fetish and have done a lot of CNC before. The reason I do it is because the amount of pleasure it gives to my female partners. The build up to it, like writing the contracts and having the discussions before hand I also love (playing into my fetish). Whats fascinating to me is the juxtaposition of the 2. I do really struggle when the woman is screaming no no no and every alarm bell is going off in my head to stop. But I focus on the consensual aspect and I can bring myself back into it. It took me a long ass time to say yes myself. Because my fetish really made it difficult. But with enough prep work for myself, I was able to find a way to enjoy it. Its not my favorite kink, but pleasing a woman beyond any man shes ever been with is. So it all comes together in the end :) Hope that could offer some insight.
Rape and DV was a massive part of human evolution.
mfs will agree with this then say we dont live in a rape culture.
"not ALL men are misogynistic!! We just believe society was built on DV and rape, but if you react to that fact in any way that's not sucking my pee pee you're a misandrist."
Legit. Idk how people are so blind to this and must go on the attack when reality is pointed out.
I agree on the surface with this argument but research shows that women with rape fetishes don’t recover from rape any better than women without it. They experience similar levels of distress - in other words, it’s not adaptive. So why is it there? Epigenetic trauma? An extension of the male rapist gene she got from her father?
NAP - I firmly believe it is very similar reasons for men as to women: A) taboo = exciting OR B) taking back control (ie. After feeling rejected, but also possibly due to past trauma) - although in some cases with little empathy it could also be the corruption of power going to far, so a combination of A&B, or the limits of laziness (ie. No need to try, "I" only need to take)
I think this is very likely! But it's just much less discussed by psychologists.
It's because very few men have the fantasy, I believe rape fantasies are the most common fantasy among women, whereas they're actually quite rare among men
Well, men are often told by women “You don’t understand. Men don’t have to worry. Women have to think about rape ALL THE TIME. ..and hold our car keys between our fingers, etc..” I think an overwhelming majority of men don’t think about raping a woman, but there are some that do, so…
That's a good point,
In my own perspective, doing that to a partner, it's 100% for my partner's pleasure.
dated/lived with/almost married a girl with a SERIOUS rape fantasy. we had sex pretty much 2x a night for 2-3 years. amazing sex life. truly amazing. i was 6'5 255lbs athletic as hell, she was like 5'0 95lbs. she would say 'no', or 'refuse' to remove panties 99% during sex for atleast 5-10 minutes. wanting me to choke her, hold her down, remove her panties by force, etc. she would try to 'squirm' out of initial penetration. sometimes she would even spit or slap or elbow me in the first few minutes of foreplay. which was kinda a 'plea' for me to get more rough which i usually would take the lead on. and then after like 30 seconds of the wrestle after penetration 'give in' and turn into like the most submissive/freaky/do whatever you want me to vibe. like a prolonged 'getting raped' foreplay every night. if we had sex maybe 1000+ times? like 990 of the times it was under this 'dance' of 'ravishment'. she was EXCEPTIONALLY loving, the most feminine and nicest soul -- but the sex was always under this format. the sex was INTENSE. she always would have bruises on her arms or throat, and all her friends would joke with me about it. which i was always a bit shameful or scared about. theyd say things like "wow, you got a little rough with again? hahahaha" or "what are you two up to? looks like a cat attacked you last night!". one of her friends even was constantly try to join in on a threesome. "i wish my boyfriend would throw me around like you do!" all the time. which we did once or twice. which although was very fun, it ended up causing some relationship problems and led me to cheating issues.
to this day, now 150-200+ girls later, married with 3 kids? i sometimes 'pin' my wife down and just slam it out while i pretend shes like a medieval villager that i am running thru the town as a viking. where she is not consenting at first, but slowly because of how hard im fucking/how strong i am, how weak her fellow villagerss are - 'gives in'. this is ALL in my mind. reliving the past excitement of 'ravishment' relationship. i never told her this is what i'm thinking. but the sex is good, and we have 3 kids, probably 4 soon all conceived in this type of mental framework. i 'go there' in my head ALOT. maybe most nights.
i never discussed this 'kink' with my wife and it was completely inherited from that past relationship. whenever i was with more 'submissive' women, i'd create somewhat of mental scenarios like this if things ever got a little stale or normal.
but i create these scenarios in my head all the time, to this day.
onwards.
If you say so brand-new-account with almost no karma.
Caring about reddit 'karma' is about as low as the human soul can sink. I can think of few things more pathetic. And if you haven't been banned 100x from reddit? I truly do not value your opinion as it is not truthful. It's political. Risk your fake internet points, and your even faker internet clout, to tell the truth. Sometimes the truth is risky. Live your life young friend. I live in reality. Not redditopia. Onwards!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy Yes I know, wiki, but it has sources that are capable of being checked. As far as I'm aware men and women are (roughly) equally likely to have ravishment fantasies, to various degrees of being realistic about rape, and are (roughly) equally likely to imagine themselves as the dominant or submissive. The assumption that women only get off to being raped and men only get off to being the rapist is a biased and outdated concept. Likewise, most of these fantasies are both less frequent and less about rape than some would think. Most people report around 4 forceful or less than consensual fantasies a month. The amount of people who primarily or very frequently have these fantasies multiple times a week is small. Note that anywhere from 42-60ish percent of people report ever having one in their lifetime. They aren't even the most common fantasy to have according to some studies. On the other hand, and noting this is primarily me getting this off my chest where I is on topic, I deep dived into all this wile researching CNC back in 2018. I also found a particular subreddit dedicated to rape kink that had a shit ton of people who genuinely looked for and shared videos of actual tapes, coached women on how to get raped/told them how hot their trauma was, and had plenty of people who professed to seeing rapists as idols. It was genuine enough for the mods to have to constantly take action against their community. The things stated and done by those people was extremely far from CNC, let alone any valid standards of conduct put forth by a BDSM community that isn't overrun by abusers. I have a hobby of researching niche internet communities. Sometimes I find ons that seriously change how I see things, and the rape kink subreddit being a place where people ACTUALLY really really love rape was certainly one of them. Very often people will say that fantasy isn't reality of whatnot. Which is true. That just doesn't mean that what someone is into, or someone into something, is beyond criticism or is somehow bizarro world morally pure. If that were the case then hundreds of people who have "totally normal and fine" rape fantasies wouldn't be publicly trading recordings of rape. I do CNC with my partners. I do not seek out communities that focus on it, or at least not ones that primarily engage with it and these fantasies as being a Rape Thing. Because they primarily are not, and taking things literally due to autism has saved my life from getting involved with shitty people many times. Highly recommend it.
I always found that rape subreddit sort of odd. It's unclear to me whether some of those people are actually just into the kink, or have some other problem. If you want to research another niche internet community, have you ever looked into the "sexy death" community? Death fetish erotica: r/GuroErotica "Dark endings" roleplay discord: [https://discord.gg/y2z54r3D](https://discord.gg/y2z54r3D) Femme Fatalities forum: [https://www.femmefatalities.com/phpBB3/index.php](https://www.femmefatalities.com/phpBB3/index.php) Etc
Sorry about the late reply. I had written a comment soon after your response, but it disappeared after I checked another tab. Actually, I like ero guro! I have a cannibalism kink as well, regardless of the erotic gore element, which started after I read Tokyo Ghoul. Something about sad obligate cannibals was really enthralling! But I'm not super into snuff/permanent death, or actually cooking someone whole, or vore in the traditional sense of swallowing something whole. I also vastly prefer it when whatever is happening is somehow consensual or enjoyed by the sub character. So that means a lot of ero-guro writing that would otherwise appeal to me is not. Of course, art is much more open to interpretation. It's easier to fantasize that there's not fully realistic permanent harm done, or that the characters won't suffer a drastic quality of life decrease. As for dying and staying dead, where's the fun in ending the show? I'm more a masochist than a sadist, but either way I'd personally rather not ruin my own fucked up meat fucking experience. Which I suppose loops back to the what I often find is a strange breed of hypocrisy. No, I definitely like everything I just talked about liking. The things I like about it are less about death or slaughter in particular and more about finding something romantic in... The inherent masochist edibility of human flesh, or something? I think it's fascinating to try and capture the psychology of that too, in writing. But the ways I enjoy it and choose to interact with it in fiction aren't really possible to translate into reality. Outside of the reddit foot taco story, which itself isn't sexual. So unless medical care advances to the point that someone butchering me erotically isn't a potentially life ruining event, it obviously doesn't even meet my standards for fiction. But, I'd still be lying if I said I didn't like gore. If it were possible to meet my "ethical" checklist then I would certainly think about it and consider it. I've written a semi accurate amputation scene, and in order to do that I researched amputation and even watched some videos of the process. Pretending that I was totally and completely not horny while learning about it would be really weird. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I keep this stuff in mind when interacting with other individuals who have kinks that go beyond edge play. Which honestly, regarding edge play, is enough for me anyway. There are plenty of ways to indulge in the "dictionary image of unsafe sexual desires" section of abnormal sex stuff as per BDSM and roleplaying. Although I certainly recommend learning about psychology and going to therapy depending on the interest. For me there's an probably an underlying feeling of otherwise unattainable closeness and usefulness going on. I think it's good to be self aware about these things. The current moralizing of how kink is beyond criticism or can't even be examined bothers me a lot because of all that. Understanding yourself and even why BDSM as a historically developed practice is important... I think it's necessary in order to interact healthily with extreme or dangerous sexual desires.
I feel like from that point of view they may see it in their mind this way to justify the non-consensual parts - They may think that the woman does not consent due to a reason that may be pushed aside, eg "but you're my step brother", "but I'm married", "but I'm gay", "but I'm a nun" - the idea is that they are so turned on by the guy or that the guy is so irresistible that they revoke their original "no". Doesn't make it right of course but kinks seem to go against morality rather than with. I feel like most people that would fantasize about CNC would see it that way. The people who fantasize about CNC where the receiving partner doesn't consent all the way through and is broken at the end, that is where I would question their character and if they are a safe person.
I think it's legit to "question" the character of such a person, and my understanding is that this is a well-known issue that people are careful about with "Doms" in the BDSM community. But I don't think 100% of men into the dominating side of CNC fantasies should be stigmatized.
As I understand it, it can be a way for an individual to confront fear in a non threatening situation. It’s the same reason people love horror movies or pay money to go through a haunted house or binge true crime shows. I’ve also heard that, for those who have experienced sexual violence, it can be a way to process trauma as they can work through the fantasy from a position of power (as opposed to the initial incident/s where they may have been victimized.)
I don’t see many people giving the answer I would. As a man this scenario is really only desirable due to the freedom to do whatever *I* wanted to do and not be so focused on her desires and wants the whole time.
for me, its similar but lowkey the opposite. First of all, im only into this stuff if shes the one to bring it up and she REALLY wants it. Shes giving me the control to do whatever I want with her, she WANTS me to take her however I want, and thats what pleasures her. Its like with cnc the "withdrawl of consent" is more of a consistent consent to do whatever you want. I have no fantasy about rape, I have a fantasy of being with someone that wants me to take them however I want whenever I want. Its hot for someone to want you that bad.
🙌🏼 I like exactly that from the other side of it. Sometimes I just want to witness and enjoy my partner getting lost going after their own pleasure.
I always thought that I had a cnc kink. But I don’t think I do. Do I want to dominate a woman? No. Do I want her to let me do whatever I want? Absolutely! That just means I want to try different positions on the fly. I want to go between her mouth and vagina. But I want a woman who wants that. Not necessarily the trying to get away and getting choked and slapped and eventually I take it. I’m a kinky lover, not a fighter.
I kind of assume the overwhelming majority are just actually rapey, but manage to not act on that because consequences, so they’re thrilled to get as close as possible without “actually” doing it. But that gets into some gray area. Like are they just really 100% not raping someone? I mean from the man’s point of view. Or are they kind of actually doing it? Kind of like porn “actors.” They’re acting…but like they’re actually having sex. I don’t know. But I’m just going from what I generally see from men in all facets of relationships, and it’s not great. So it would not be the least bit surprising if men who “fantasize” about raping someone are on the exact same wavelength as men who actually rape someone, the only difference being more self control.
Idk about that one. Could be they enjoy being submissive and being put in their place as well.
Only speaking from experience I find that this kind of role playing is a chore. I don't really enjoy it but do it because it's brings so much pleasure to my partner. I'd much prefer puppy dog affection
I don't agree that ravishment is even a kink. It's an absolutely normal part of being a healthy sexual person. It is even very useful for developing one's own sexuality. It's like masturbation. It's practice for the real thing, though of course the real thing will be different from the fantasy. Even further, it is never necessary to act out a fantasy, or kink. Just because you're turned on by something, or someone, does not mean you should act it out in real life.
It seemed obvious to me that men like it for similar reasons.
I’ve often wondered this very thing. I can have a bit of a “ravishment” fantasy in my head, but could never act it out because any guy willing to go there with me would immediately gross me out. Like I know why I want it, but why do you want it? Maybe the only reasonable answer would be that they get the enjoyment from fulfilling the fantasy, not from the fantasy itself… But yeah, wtf is going on with anyone who has a “ravisher” fantasy?!
I'll let you know when I find out! 😂😂 No but seriously when thinking about it in my head it seems like something I would really like but I'm 100% unsure how I would actually feel in the moment. I guess it depends on the trust level you have with the other person and what your preference is. I do wonder if there is some psychological reason that makes some people have that fantasy and why others don't. I might do some research on that.
My anecdote is this game was always her idea. I wanted nice soft cuddly sex, she wanted to pretend to be unconscious, or held down, or something. And if she didnt like it, then i wouldnt do it. We just want to be your friend and make you happy.
The fantasy doesn’t work as well from the guy’s side. The woman always knows she’s secretly into the “ravishment.”
I think it's because there is a deeply sexist assumption that this is just how men really are. I mean it fits in with modern gender dynamic ideology of men being the villains. I mean a rapist is a pretty horrific kind of villain. However that couldn't just be an assumption on my part. I'm sure there are several different reasons why one would avoid that part. However I think at least part of it is what I said. Perpetuating the idea that men are all rapists at heart. Which of course is sexist horseshit but a whole lot of what is said about men these days is in fact sexist for shit so it's no big surprise.
There was just some video on the tube by some chick about discipline in the bedroom. I think I'll just be a fucking monk at this point.
i always thought but never hear it discussed that purity culture says women aren’t supposed to like sex bc it makes them whores. so women have to reconcile wanting sex with being a whore. how to do this? have sex without wanting it. have sex without asking for it. fantasize about the kind of sex that doesn’t make you a whore. hence ravishment fantasy. if he forces it then shes not the one giving it away. this way she gets to have sex and not be a whore in her own fantasy. who tf wants to be a whore in their own fantasy because of internalized misogyny? not me. to me, if it’s not trauma based, ravishment fantasy is an obvious solution to the unfortunate double standard that women who want sex are whores.
I think the word ravish exists because humans are quirky. To ravish and be ravished implies a kind of unspoken consent that clashes with the current focus on consent concepts being overt and expressed. To ravish was to be consumed by lustful obsession with the ravished party. Their beauty, their charisma, or their presence in a significant, sexually charged moment inspired a love making so intense it demands to be expressed. The ravished are themselves consumed. Like throwing a pebble and starting a landslide, the subject of a ravishing has inspired such desire in another that they are carried away by the force of it. It can't be resisted, and they don't want to resist. This is where the unspoken consent applies. The overwhelming force of desire washes over their inhibitions, conflicting emotions, whatever obstacle might exist that stands between the subject and their own gratification and desires. Who wouldn't want to be so intensely desired by someone? Who wouldn't want to find someone to feel such intense passion for? The key is that on the other side, both parties truly wanted the ravishing to take place. It's just the factors around it that make the waters of that consent murky.
How many men actually have ravishment fantasies? Any studies on this? I'd like to say it is very low based on anecdotal evidence.
I don't remember where I read this but more women fantasize about being "ravished" than men fantasizing about "ravishing". Don't know if that's true but it's a statistic.
It’s not discussed because the feeling isn’t mutual. The woman’s perspective is fixated on because it is more common and particularly subversive. It’s not so dissimilar to some hypothetical scenario where we discovered that the majority of black Americans fantasized about being enslaved and wished to reenact it so long as no eyes of judgement can fall on them. It begs the question “What is all of this really for?” and creates an aspect of dread fascination for those with a masochistic urge to feel the most sacred ethical foundations waver like an actor who forgot their lines.
Huh, I wouldn't have assumed that those are the reasons why women have that fantasy. I would've assumed that it's about being attracted to someone who is powerful and assertive and who gets what he wants. OTOH, I think that men like the idea of being irresistible, and this is the impetus behind both their fantasies of ravishing or being ravished.
I don’t spend a lot of time pondering what other people might think about me. That’s why I’m happier than they are.
[https://youtu.be/RXgER_m08KU?si=hOoLrR5a6kLJJxso](https://youtu.be/RXgER_m08KU?si=hOoLrR5a6kLJJxso)