A crazy good band. Dave Vanian could have easily been misconstrued as corny or laughable. But, because he was so good, he commanded the stage. His band was an auditory assault and their bits of tongue in cheek humor along the way really is the essence of “punk”
Out of that bunch? Middle Class by far. Otherwise it’s LAMF by Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers.
Other favorites of early bands:
The Ruts
UK Subs
999 (still amazing live)
The Members
The Weirdos
X
The weirdos are fucking awesome! Can't believe I forgot them. Same with x and uk subs! Can't believe I forgot sham 69 too. There like the first street band!
Met my spouse outside of an Adolescents/Weirdos show years ago. I’d be willing to bet I caught the Weirdos last show too. X was my first show as a teenager, good times. Seen them a bunch too.
Fun fact, Wayne Kramer and Iggy Pop started a heroin selling business together. It ended with Kramer robbing Iggy at gun point for the money back for the product he (obviously) just did himself.
Classic case of a band who had the talent and had the songs, but just couldn't get out of their own way
These always tend to be my favorite bands, though. MC5, The Replacements, The Kinks....
Wayne powered through everything in the end. He helped found “Jail Guitar Doors” which is a charity that goes to prisons across the country and teaches inmates how to play instruments and use their creativity to create something positive. My band played a show to help raise funds for them years ago. He was a good dude. RIP
I'll never forget the first time I put the needle down on that album and heard that crackling fuzzy guitar and the barbed wire howl of Jake Burns and part of me thought "Shit, is this record actually going to burst into flames on my turntable ?"
I concur and even got to see them at their last Chicago show by luck. That memory is priceless.
That being said the Clash Iggy Pop and the Stooges and Sex Pistols i do still enjoy
It’s at #1 for me - no question. There’s something magical about that record. They were just ON in every sense. The writing, the playing, the sound, the attitude and most of all the coolness. Never gets boring and I’ve listened to it literally thousands of times.
I was just listening to it earlier today! …and last week, and a few weeks before that. And a few weeks before that too. …and also 100 days ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/punk/s/XU9zUPkgdB
I’d consider any band formed before 77 as first generation which would include both of them even though Black Flag is more known for their stuff with Rollins who wasn’t added until the 80s.
If any of these bands aren’t first gen I’d say it’s the Stooges, Death, and the New York Dolls because they were way before anything else I’d consider them proto-punk.
Can you give me some recs? I know the Germs and I never really understood why people were so high on them. Probably just means I haven’t heard the right shit. I’d like to give them a real chance, since obviously I’m missing something lol
For me, I think it’s Darby’s lyrics that elevate the Germs’ music. Their discography is small, consisting of the Forming single, Lexicon Devil ep and their GI album. I’d recommend listening to any or all of them with their lyrics. Their live recordings are bootlegged, of poor quality and don’t truly reflect the chaos of their live shows. It could be a matter of taste. There are plenty of respected punk bands that I don’t enjoy.
The Adicts, The Clash, The Damned, and Richard Hell and the Voivoids.
Marky Ramone played drums in the Voivoids before he became a Ramone. Saw this interview once where he got in to it with Johnny Rotten and basically said the Pistols stole their look from Richard Hell.... Henry Rollins laughed and talked about High Tension.
The Ramones, and there isn’t a close second.
Dead Boys, Stiff Little Fingers, The Damned, The Stooges, The Sex Pistols, and The Buzzcocks are all fantastic though.
I had no idea who Death was until a couple years ago when that documentary came out, they weren’t a band I was aware of so they didn’t really impact me.
Middle Class I knew of but never owned their records. They’re a solid band, but I can’t call myself a super fan. A band I love that I don’t see here is UK Subs.
Considering the fact that first wave punk bands had very little viable means of widespread promotion other than touring, with ZERO media attention or mainstream radio airplay, and were genre establishing in a groundbreaking way with fans despite cops cracking heads, mayors shutting down clubs with curfews, and talk shows blasting the culture...I'd say that the 70s and 80s was the only true punk era that exemplified what it was to be punk as a counter-culture, and proved it by it's resiliency and risk.
After Kurt Cobain made alternative music and the lifestyle acceptable by the establishment, AND popular, it's hard to say the anything punk after had the uphill climb to success. Major labels were now ready to sign punk acts. The underground had surfaced and was in the spotlight, and shared only a sound and style with the first generation of punk. There were some DIY bands that struggled, but the obstacles were self-imposed out of principle. That being stated:
The Ramones were the most popular (but the Stooges were arguably the first.)
DK was most provacative at the time...and Jello's label perhaps the first DIY venture.
So I'd go with these two.
The Germs, Fear, Black Flag, and skatepunk like ST and Flipper were all important to the foundation of what the culture of punk is and evolved into...so I'd include them, too.
I wouldn’t consider The Dickies first generation, but if you’re going to include that Black Flag 7” as first generation, then I’m going with The Dickies.
Misfits and Black Flag. I should say though, playing Holiday in Cambodia on Guitar Hero is what got me into punk, so Dead Kennedys definitely count for me too.
Fell in love with the Ramones at 13 in 78 so always a soft spot, loved the Sex Pistols sound and snottiness at that same time. Friends older brother turned us on to Iggy and the Dolls so loved them too… The Cramps were one of my first concerts so always have a love for them… The Clash probably have gotten the most air time in my house….can never just pick one.
Now a days I listen to the clash, the stooges, and the dead boys probably more than any of the others though. My thirst for angst and violence have diminished a bit with age.
Definitely The Stooges. Their debut is blisteringly loud, even to this day but also catchy. I’m also fond of Television, but I am not sure if they are considered to be first generation punk or proto. Oh and Black Flag is awesome, I like all the incarnations of it!
Misfits. Back in high school I was in a horror punk band and we had to consciously make an effort to not become a Misfits cover band we had so many favorites. The original Misfits tunes are also a special, unique blend of endlessly listenable and also open to reinterpretation - like, when you're starting your first band and everybody sucks, you can still do a passable cover of a Misfits song, and then as your horizons broaden, you'd better believe that Hatebreeders works as a reggae tune.
Also, they'll always have a special place in my heart because when my first kiddo was a baby, I'd sing him Astro Zombies to get him back to sleep.
The single best live music moment I've ever experienced was Danzig and Doyle during their first show together in decades back in 2011. The way I remember it was like 3 hours of Danzig's various post-Misfits stuff (all of which I hate - I want to dig them, but it's like Steely Dan where I just viscerally despise everything they do), followed by the greatest 15 minutes of live music I've ever seen. They kicked it off with Bullet, which was my favorite Misfits tune at the time, and I imagine that was the closest I'll ever get to sharing the experience had by those shrieking girls when they'd see Elvis back in the 50's. I nearly passed out.
I also actually liked the Michael Graves years (well, I really liked 2 songs from those years - Forbidden Zone and Dig Up Her Bones), but Graves is a fascist and there's no ignoring that.
Misfits.
I like the horror elements and the gritty sound. Their songs aren’t really political, so I can separate it from Danzig’s awful politics. Graves is worse, but I don’t count anything without Danzig as Misfits.
The Damned is my second on this list with the Clash, Ramones, and Stiff Little Fingers following.
My favorite classic punk band is Husker Du. And yeah, they aren’t first gen., but they are classic. And if you don’t agree, you’re not punk and I’m telling everyone.
I was a metal head that heard Megadeth do Anarchy before the Sex Pistols and I heard Metallica do Last Caress before Misfits and The Wait before Killing Joke. Soooooo- Megadeth and Metallica …bonus band Anthrax for introducing me to Suicidal Tendencies, SOD and Corrosion of Conformity
Haha I remember seeing the Ramones on the Simpsons and not only was it hilarious but that birthday song slapped. Every time my dad was acting like a drunk asshole I'd tell him "go to hell you old bastard".
I will always say the Ramones are my favorite band of any genre, despite probably listening more to the Misfits and Ween over the years. Ramones were basically perfect.
From this list Dead Boys are fucking awesome.
I'd also like to add Wayne/Jane County because I hardly ever see her brought up. I only know about her because I found an old VHS of The Punk Rock Movie in the trash and thought [Cream In My Jeans](https://youtu.be/d5nrXQaDlv8?si=Eb4rJU9ZVkH_BA6D) was a killer song.
If I could only take one of those albums to the proverbial desert island it would have to be Damned Damned Damned. Other albums there come very close but that album is pure voltage injected into the bloodstream. It has so much rampaging energy it makes my teeth tingle.
Im so glad you included Death! they are definetly my personal favorite and tbh deserve much more recognition for their works and contribitions towards the subculture than what people typically give them
The damned are easily my favourite
A crazy good band. Dave Vanian could have easily been misconstrued as corny or laughable. But, because he was so good, he commanded the stage. His band was an auditory assault and their bits of tongue in cheek humor along the way really is the essence of “punk”
Saw them two weeks ago with their classic 80s lineup; still fucking incredible. Dave has the best voice of any of the old guard still alive.
Out of that bunch? Middle Class by far. Otherwise it’s LAMF by Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers. Other favorites of early bands: The Ruts UK Subs 999 (still amazing live) The Members The Weirdos X
The weirdos are fucking awesome! Can't believe I forgot them. Same with x and uk subs! Can't believe I forgot sham 69 too. There like the first street band!
Met my spouse outside of an Adolescents/Weirdos show years ago. I’d be willing to bet I caught the Weirdos last show too. X was my first show as a teenager, good times. Seen them a bunch too.
I love the Weirdos!
The Ruts never get enough love. IMO, they absolutely dust damn near every other band of the era.
LOVE the Heartbreakers and LAMF is all killer.
MC5 if you wanna go way back.
Fun fact, Wayne Kramer and Iggy Pop started a heroin selling business together. It ended with Kramer robbing Iggy at gun point for the money back for the product he (obviously) just did himself.
Wayne's autobiography is depressing as hell.
Classic case of a band who had the talent and had the songs, but just couldn't get out of their own way These always tend to be my favorite bands, though. MC5, The Replacements, The Kinks....
Wayne powered through everything in the end. He helped found “Jail Guitar Doors” which is a charity that goes to prisons across the country and teaches inmates how to play instruments and use their creativity to create something positive. My band played a show to help raise funds for them years ago. He was a good dude. RIP
Or los saicos if you want to go further back
The feeding of 5000 and nervous breakdown are so clutch
There's a special place in my heart for Dead Kennedys since it's the first punk band I ever heard back in 1987.
Out of those? Stiff little fingers!
I listened to the entirety of inflammable material this morning and its like definitely like on of the best classic albums
Absolutely. The second one “Nobody’s Hero’s” is one of my favorite albums all time. Great band.
Saw them recently! One of the best shows I’ve been to
I'll never forget the first time I put the needle down on that album and heard that crackling fuzzy guitar and the barbed wire howl of Jake Burns and part of me thought "Shit, is this record actually going to burst into flames on my turntable ?"
The Ramones The clash Black flag The stooges
This is the way
Ramones by far!!
I concur and even got to see them at their last Chicago show by luck. That memory is priceless. That being said the Clash Iggy Pop and the Stooges and Sex Pistols i do still enjoy
the clash!
London Calling is the toughest/coolest song without even trying. The impending doom lyrics and the howls. Just badass swagger.
sandinista!
London Clash is an easy Top 10 albums of all time for me
It’s at #1 for me - no question. There’s something magical about that record. They were just ON in every sense. The writing, the playing, the sound, the attitude and most of all the coolness. Never gets boring and I’ve listened to it literally thousands of times.
I was just listening to it earlier today! …and last week, and a few weeks before that. And a few weeks before that too. …and also 100 days ago https://www.reddit.com/r/punk/s/XU9zUPkgdB
Top to bottom, that album kicks ass
Nobody said the Buzzcocks?
I did just now. And I also can’t believe it.
probs Crass
[удалено]
Many of those are not first generation. Black Flag and The Misfits definitely are not.
I’d consider any band formed before 77 as first generation which would include both of them even though Black Flag is more known for their stuff with Rollins who wasn’t added until the 80s. If any of these bands aren’t first gen I’d say it’s the Stooges, Death, and the New York Dolls because they were way before anything else I’d consider them proto-punk.
There are no wrong answers, only opinions. Ramones Dammed SLF Flag Mostly cause that’s the order I heard them in growing up
No X-ray Spex?
Ikr?! Seriously missing some classics here
Original proto-punk it’s The Stooges. First wave of the US it’s Suicide. First wave of the UK it’s The Slits. US hardcore it’s The Germs.
The New York Dolls were doing it all . Punk, glam, disco, hard rock. Before everyone else. I’m just saying, have a listen.
Death are criminally underrated.
I agree. They came way before the Ramones yet no one talks about them
Death are a great band but they were unknown for years after they broke up so they didn’t have any influence on first or second generations of punk
Politicians In My Eyes is a top 10 punk song.
the germs no doubt about it
Can you give me some recs? I know the Germs and I never really understood why people were so high on them. Probably just means I haven’t heard the right shit. I’d like to give them a real chance, since obviously I’m missing something lol
For me, I think it’s Darby’s lyrics that elevate the Germs’ music. Their discography is small, consisting of the Forming single, Lexicon Devil ep and their GI album. I’d recommend listening to any or all of them with their lyrics. Their live recordings are bootlegged, of poor quality and don’t truly reflect the chaos of their live shows. It could be a matter of taste. There are plenty of respected punk bands that I don’t enjoy.
The Saints
The Adicts, The Clash, The Damned, and Richard Hell and the Voivoids. Marky Ramone played drums in the Voivoids before he became a Ramone. Saw this interview once where he got in to it with Johnny Rotten and basically said the Pistols stole their look from Richard Hell.... Henry Rollins laughed and talked about High Tension.
Misfits, but they’re not really first gen. Walk Among Us came out when Minor Threat was already eating it up.
Misfits while not technically first gen, started in 77. Static Age was also recorded that year too but didn’t come out til the 90s
Static age was so ahead of its time. At least it would've been if they actually found a label to publish it, lol
The Ramones, and there isn’t a close second. Dead Boys, Stiff Little Fingers, The Damned, The Stooges, The Sex Pistols, and The Buzzcocks are all fantastic though.
What about Death and middle class?
I had no idea who Death was until a couple years ago when that documentary came out, they weren’t a band I was aware of so they didn’t really impact me. Middle Class I knew of but never owned their records. They’re a solid band, but I can’t call myself a super fan. A band I love that I don’t see here is UK Subs.
I can't believe I forgot them. There like my favorite first generation behind like sham 69. (Which I also forgot)
Sham 69 is a good band too.
Death being seen as some groundbreaking first gen band is so interesting to me. Nobody has a clue about them before that doc came out.
Dead Boys. Saw them around 40 times, 1977 and on. I was extremely lucky to have been an inside. 😎
The Stooges. Their first three albums are near flawless Also Wire if they count, even tho their debut is their only true punk album
They’re all fire. Germs has the W overall
Black Flag rollins era
SLF obviously.
1. RAMONES 2. THE CLASH 3. MISFITS
Considering the fact that first wave punk bands had very little viable means of widespread promotion other than touring, with ZERO media attention or mainstream radio airplay, and were genre establishing in a groundbreaking way with fans despite cops cracking heads, mayors shutting down clubs with curfews, and talk shows blasting the culture...I'd say that the 70s and 80s was the only true punk era that exemplified what it was to be punk as a counter-culture, and proved it by it's resiliency and risk. After Kurt Cobain made alternative music and the lifestyle acceptable by the establishment, AND popular, it's hard to say the anything punk after had the uphill climb to success. Major labels were now ready to sign punk acts. The underground had surfaced and was in the spotlight, and shared only a sound and style with the first generation of punk. There were some DIY bands that struggled, but the obstacles were self-imposed out of principle. That being stated: The Ramones were the most popular (but the Stooges were arguably the first.) DK was most provacative at the time...and Jello's label perhaps the first DIY venture. So I'd go with these two. The Germs, Fear, Black Flag, and skatepunk like ST and Flipper were all important to the foundation of what the culture of punk is and evolved into...so I'd include them, too.
Black Flag
Stooges Uber Alles followed directly by the New York Dolls
So your a proto punk kinda guy?
The Trashmen - Surfin Bird The Sonics - The Witch MC5 - Kick Out the Jams/Ramblin’ Rose
I wouldn’t consider The Dickies first generation, but if you’re going to include that Black Flag 7” as first generation, then I’m going with The Dickies.
According to Keith Morris the Doors were first wave punk so them
My real answer is Dammed
Stiff Little Fingers
Generation x, the ruts and Siouxie and the banshees. One of them. Not sure which, impossible to pick.
Doa. Seeing em tonight. I'm so excited!
Sex Pistols
Misfits and Black Flag. I should say though, playing Holiday in Cambodia on Guitar Hero is what got me into punk, so Dead Kennedys definitely count for me too.
Dead Kennedys (they're still one of my favs)
Tie between The Ramones and The Clash
All the old Misfits stuff still holds up 100% for me today.
Fell in love with the Ramones at 13 in 78 so always a soft spot, loved the Sex Pistols sound and snottiness at that same time. Friends older brother turned us on to Iggy and the Dolls so loved them too… The Cramps were one of my first concerts so always have a love for them… The Clash probably have gotten the most air time in my house….can never just pick one.
In no paticular order... Dead Boys Dictators Ramones The Clash
Stooges, Death, Dolls and Stiff Little Fingers - in that order. Then Black Flag, Dead boys, Misfits. Hard choices here!
I love the Clash overall as a band, but punk specifically it’s SLF for sure
crass
electric eels (lowercase mind you), Pagans and Rocket from the Tombs. I’m not from Cleveland btw
Gotta be crass
Ramones no question
Misfits has a special place in my heart
Definitely Crass
1. Adolescents - The Blue Album.
Buzzcocks, followed by The Damned.
Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers Easy answer....
As a rule, I’m of the opinion Ramones were the greatest rock n roll band of all time.
Cock Sparrer
Black flag. Also Sex Pistols kinda seem to get shit on these days but late 80’s when I was first introduced to punk they were a revelation.
Now a days I listen to the clash, the stooges, and the dead boys probably more than any of the others though. My thirst for angst and violence have diminished a bit with age.
Stooges, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, Talking Heads.
Huge Death fan, but I gotta give it to The Clash.
Iggy and the Stooges, Death, Black Flag. Raw Power is a 10/10.
Misfits closely followed by The Clash,DK, and The Damned
RAMONES - but the mono mix!!
The Stooges / Black Flag / The Damned for me, for sure.
Minor Threat
The Damned, still… probably, but I have been on a year or so long Ramones kick. I’ve been obsessive lol
How can you not include X??? For shame!!!
Crass, Sub Humans, and Oi Pollio are my favorites.
Yasss someone else who mentioned Subhumans and Oi Polloi!! ✊🏽
I don't know if Bad Brains is first generation but they are my favorite band
Definitely The Stooges. Their debut is blisteringly loud, even to this day but also catchy. I’m also fond of Television, but I am not sure if they are considered to be first generation punk or proto. Oh and Black Flag is awesome, I like all the incarnations of it!
The Clash, hands down. They're not called "the only band that matters" for no reason
If you’re including black flag and Dead Kennedys as first generation, then people should be talking about Crass, exploited, and subhumans (in)
Crass, dead Kennedys, black flag in that order
The Saints
Misfits/Black Flag‼️‼️
probably cliche but i really got into punk after listening 2 black flag
Misfits. Back in high school I was in a horror punk band and we had to consciously make an effort to not become a Misfits cover band we had so many favorites. The original Misfits tunes are also a special, unique blend of endlessly listenable and also open to reinterpretation - like, when you're starting your first band and everybody sucks, you can still do a passable cover of a Misfits song, and then as your horizons broaden, you'd better believe that Hatebreeders works as a reggae tune. Also, they'll always have a special place in my heart because when my first kiddo was a baby, I'd sing him Astro Zombies to get him back to sleep. The single best live music moment I've ever experienced was Danzig and Doyle during their first show together in decades back in 2011. The way I remember it was like 3 hours of Danzig's various post-Misfits stuff (all of which I hate - I want to dig them, but it's like Steely Dan where I just viscerally despise everything they do), followed by the greatest 15 minutes of live music I've ever seen. They kicked it off with Bullet, which was my favorite Misfits tune at the time, and I imagine that was the closest I'll ever get to sharing the experience had by those shrieking girls when they'd see Elvis back in the 50's. I nearly passed out. I also actually liked the Michael Graves years (well, I really liked 2 songs from those years - Forbidden Zone and Dig Up Her Bones), but Graves is a fascist and there's no ignoring that.
Dead Kennedys
Ramones and sex pistols and black flag these were my first punk bands to Listen to
Not necessarily first gen, but I’ve always loved nailbomb and fugazi
Misfits,Black Flag,Ramones,The Damned,The Clash
crass, black flag, the damned
The stooges black flag and misfits
Dead Kennedys or TSOL
Oh I'm a Misfits guy, personally. You ain't gonna go wrong with anyone on this list tho
im tied between misfits and black flag
Buzzcocks! Buzzcocks! Buzzcocks!
All of them
Fear. 12341234!
The Clash.
It's pretty close between Misfits or Black Flag.
Black Flag, the Stooges, and Dead Boys blow the rest of these out of the water by a long shot.
I love some subhumans
Dead Boys are my favorite of those
The Clash
Misfits. I like the horror elements and the gritty sound. Their songs aren’t really political, so I can separate it from Danzig’s awful politics. Graves is worse, but I don’t count anything without Danzig as Misfits. The Damned is my second on this list with the Clash, Ramones, and Stiff Little Fingers following. My favorite classic punk band is Husker Du. And yeah, they aren’t first gen., but they are classic. And if you don’t agree, you’re not punk and I’m telling everyone.
Black flag
Sex Pistols, might as well have invented punk
The boy band that Malcolm McLaren put together did not invent punk
I didnt say they did
Does richard hell count? I love him
The Pistols for '76 and The Ruts for '78. Then Husker Du.
misfits but I'm young so
death for sure. so technically proficient
Can’t decide but it have to be either pistols clash on stiff little fingers …The ruts should be on this list though
Black Flag Tampa Florida / Ybor City
Either the Urinals or Black Randy & The Metrosquad
Stiff little fingers
Ramones, Sex Pistols, The Clash
Ramones
Stooges, ruts, x
X. Always X
The Boys
ramones.
Love them all but my personal favorite, the one I went to see over and over again was THE RAMONES!!
i love misfits
I was a metal head that heard Megadeth do Anarchy before the Sex Pistols and I heard Metallica do Last Caress before Misfits and The Wait before Killing Joke. Soooooo- Megadeth and Metallica …bonus band Anthrax for introducing me to Suicidal Tendencies, SOD and Corrosion of Conformity
Death.
The misfits
Unquestionably the Ramones
Ramones, The Clash, Misfits and The Sex Pistols
Def NY dolls
Buzzcocks by a mile
The Ramones Because they are my favorite band of all time
The Clash
new york dolls >>>
Crass
Inflammable material
Middle class. I fucking LOVE the middle class
Haha I remember seeing the Ramones on the Simpsons and not only was it hilarious but that birthday song slapped. Every time my dad was acting like a drunk asshole I'd tell him "go to hell you old bastard".
Ramones Because I love Dee bass 😌
Death, The Clash, Crass, The Stooges, The Misfits
Ruts, Dickies, and the Voidoids definitely deserve a mention.
I will always say the Ramones are my favorite band of any genre, despite probably listening more to the Misfits and Ween over the years. Ramones were basically perfect.
The Clash will always have my heart, with The Stooges as a runner-up
I have to go with The Germs. Brutal, unhinged, dark and dangerous with zero fucks to give. As punk as punk gets.
Misfits all the way
Cock Sparrer
Ramones
crass and there's almost no contest
From this list Dead Boys are fucking awesome. I'd also like to add Wayne/Jane County because I hardly ever see her brought up. I only know about her because I found an old VHS of The Punk Rock Movie in the trash and thought [Cream In My Jeans](https://youtu.be/d5nrXQaDlv8?si=Eb4rJU9ZVkH_BA6D) was a killer song.
Ebba grön from Sweden. Not very well not outside my country but they’re amazing
The Sonics are def up there
Misfits + Ramones Tied.
The Clash and The Damned!
If I could only take one of those albums to the proverbial desert island it would have to be Damned Damned Damned. Other albums there come very close but that album is pure voltage injected into the bloodstream. It has so much rampaging energy it makes my teeth tingle.
Magazine. Secondhand Daylight.
The Damned
Ramones, Damed and Misfits have always had a special place in my strange little heart.
Death needs more appreciators 3
Im so glad you included Death! they are definetly my personal favorite and tbh deserve much more recognition for their works and contribitions towards the subculture than what people typically give them
Velvet underground, stooges, ramones, dead boys, New York dolls
DEATH
The Saints - (I'm) Stranded
Crass
Biased cus New Yorker so Ramone’s for sure