Well I mean at it's core, builds and runes are a numbers game. Revitalize USED to be good on solo laners that could abuse it w/ gore/steraks etc., but nowadays it's fairly lackluster. Only specific champions that can take advantage of the healing (and even then I'd argue that Overgrowth still outpaces Revitalize as the game progresses) run it.
You would expect Shen to be one of the solo laner champs that should take revitalize over overgrowth. If it’s not even good enough for Shen then it might just be too weak.
Why would you expect that? Revitalize gives 5-10% healing/shielding power. Shen has no healing other than base regen. His shield scales off max HP, and overgrowth at 120 stacks gives 45 health + 3.5% max HP. which stacks with itself and scales beyond that.
Revitalize barely gives you more shielding unless you're below 40% health, but it has to give enough extra shielding to make up for the health you're not getting as well (not to mention Shen's taunt also scales with max health).
Let's say you have 3,000 max health at level 11. Your passive gives you a 440 health shield. Revitalize only increases that by 22, up to 44 if you're below 40% health. Even if for some reason you've only been around 120 dead minions in the entire game, overgrowth gives you 107 bonus health, while also increasing your shielding by 13.
This is why revitalize is only a rune for champions with large amounts of healing/shielding that don't also scale off bonus health. Shen has 2 abilities with shields, but both also scale off bonus health, so the power of revitalize by comparison is massively reduced. Even for solo laners that would fit, the removal of goredrinker made it a lot weaker, so it's mostly for enchanters now.
Renekton, mordekaiser, and poppy say hello.
Shen generates 2 shields ever, and one of them is his ulti.
Revitalize is great on champs with multiple sources of healing and shielding through their kit/items.
Renekton for example shields with Eclipse and steraks/maw, and heals with Q, sundered sky(when he builds it) and conquerer, morde shields and heals with W as well as generating healing from riftmaker and conq., poppy shields with passive, Fimbulwinter, and possibly Kaenic Rookern and heals with grasp and Sundered Sky
Comparatively shen has… grasp and his self shield which has never particularly impressed me in terms of contributing to his overall HP relative to what other champs can do.
This question is rampant on the Illaoi subreddit as well.
But the numbers have always been clear both in game and on sites like Lolalytics. Revitalize is a bait rune.
Also why take it when grievous exists.
I haven't taken Revitalize in years. Setting aside the lackluster effect, most champs in resolve scale better with HP overall anyway. All resolve keystones and half the minor runes scale with HP. Nearly every tank and most bruisers/juggernauts have at least one HP scaling ability or item.
It just has no value on these champ classes. Maybe that's the point? Who knows? Revitalize is still strong, arguably standard, on many white-mage enchanters.
Ultimately, I'm unconcerned. It's okay to have runes that suit different roles and champ classes better than others.
I've been taking it on my Senna recently. Admittedly, I've just been copying rune builds on Lolalytics and there are enough samples that show Revitalize is competitive. I do sometimes take the Inspiration rune that gives extra ms walking towards someone you slowed if enemy is kite-ish, but it just feels right to have Revitalize for extra healing. Didn't know tanks were taking it, I thought it would've been exclusive for shielders/healers.
i would have thought revitalise would suck on shen anyhows. his shields are kinda weak early and scales with hp already. also his w negates some of the shield benefits if it stacks together, which is not uncommon.
i see revitalise as more of a mid game rune. champs like mundo could probably use it very well, and u could make an small and weak argument for renekton or reksai. but yeah i would take overgrowth on most top laners.
hp regen is already a weak stat for combat and raw hp is basically always better except in very niche cases
Afaik revitalise Was picked in the past to get more healing out of second Wind, Dorans and pots so you can survive longer in lane because shen has no other sustain.
But is it? Is the healing/shield early game worth the trade off of having less health from overgrowth late game? When i do play ww top im usually more concerned about my mana than my lack of healing
As warwick top you are always playing below 50% hp in lane, so every auto you get the benefit from revitalize, imo it's a must and it heals for so much.
Also W>E>Q max is really good for toplane warwick, it also removes your mana problems
Lower cooldown and more % damage reduction, it makes u really tanky in fights if you use it correctly. Maxing Q instead makes it cost a ridiculous amount of mana so its not really worth imo. I basically just copied the build of H0rnlime, but I don't really play warwick top anymore so idk how much he has changed
Yeah I have been choosing Overgrowth over Revitalize for a few seasons for any champ that isn't enchanter, I thought it was obvious but it apparently isn't. Nowadays Revitalize is only worth it on enchanter or if you are going for the Ingenious Fimbul + Despair (+ other stuffs like Eclipse) build.
There’s a case for Revitalize on Fiora because you’re constantly trying to heal off DBlade, vitals, ult, and Ravenous Hydra. But otherwise, I don’t see how it’s better for solo lancers than overgrowth.
You'll have to heal 1000 health for Revitalize to give you +150 HP in a fight in the best (unrealistic) case scenario. This is before considering that your lane opponent bought Bramble Vest. Just take Overgrowth.
Fiora at level 11 has an ult that heals for 500+300% bonus ad. Assuming you have ravenous + eclipse at this point, that’s 920 healing off the ult alone, not including the 73 each vital proc gives, ravenous lifesteal, conqueror, or eclipse shield. Overgrowth on the other hand will only give ~110-130 HP at this point (25 waves to get to level 11 plus assuming some camps for a total of 175 deaths). Healing reduction of course influences the math, but I’d argue in extended fights revitalize wins, while overgrowth is better into burst.
You need inbuilt kit healing for it to be worth it, renekton for example has a decent win rate with the rune because it still adds up a lot over time.
Of course it is compulsory for champions like soraka and sona
Basically overgrowth is the only viable rune in the bottom resolve tree. Unflinching is also incredibly bad after rework. Every champ that runs resolve primary or secondary does remarkably better with overgrowth right now, and it's not even close.
I pick revitalize when i am playing a bruiser champion and i have heavy shield/healing champions on my team. Example: playing as Urgot with Lux mid and Soraka support. But yeah, overgrowth is probably the right choice in 95% of the games.
The rune was always trash to begin with. Now it's even more useless. That rune slot has the worst runes, but Overgrowth is the best out of those three.
is this still the case for someone like Poppy? I've really liked the eclipse/fimbulwinter item abuse build (not sure if it's still viable). it seems pretty decent with the passive shield, double shield items and grasp. I may just swap to overgrowth every game if the consensus is the rune is just that terrible though. thanks!
Unless you value earlygame that much (scorch is 10x better earlygame) or play specific champion, overgrowth is better option. Since overgrowth give ~5% max hp, If we ignore % dmg, you need to gain 100%/33% extra hp to match flat hp, but 167%/56% under healing debuff. You never that unless your aatrox or mordekaiser that can use shield below 40% hp.
Anyway green tree isn't good since they reduced condition bonuses to 3% & 12-th min and removed unflinching from game. Your better getting more ofensive runes & half offensive items like banshe or edge of night.
Shen isn't exactly a good user of Revitalise though, only one shield and no self heal. Compare that to Volibear who has both a shield and a self heal within his kit, without items also offering healing and shielding.
I actually don't think Conditioning is **that** great after its nerfs anymore. On a squishy it was previously 14 armor/MR. Now it's 11 armor/MR.
On bruisers it was previously 19 armor/MR and now it's 14 armor/MR.
(Assuming squishy has ~100 armor and bruisers have ~200 armor, which could easily be wrong so do your own math)
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Of course it's still the best scaling rune. But I don't necessarily think it's OP, I think second wind is great in lane. And I also think Bone Plating is actually somewhat underrated late game because they can't just play around it and not hit you unless you get hit with something like Lux E. (So if you're diving them as Irelia for instance, you basically get a 180 HP shield for 1.5s when hit)
BP is quite good and second wind is definitely something that is abusable in certain match ups (sett vs everoyne, everyone vs dot)
I still value it over most other options (also im taking sorcery/green/yellow combination on 99% of melees). Im also a big legend tenacity user.
My main thing is not that conditioning is hella op, it is quite good at value of 2-4% damage reduction depending on how much magic pen and resistance you already had, but rather that most of blue isn't great(i cant remember the last time i took scorch, celerity, water walking (not a jungle player) however gathering, transendance and mana flow mana are awesome. Red is almost ENTIRELY useless. Sudden impact is op but every single other rune is mid to bad. UH with Malignance for some ult cheeses i guess
Light blue is quite good but situation. Approach is one of the best runes in teh game I would go so far as to say just the best rune, situationally), potion is VERY under rated and biscuits are always ok, demetralizer sometimes very useful sometimes a way to last hit caddies.
Overgrowth in combination with scaling hp shard can also help out a lot in harder lanes where you can play the early levels slower and have a noticeable hp advantage around level 4,5,6.
TBH I would not call that noticeable at all, overgrowth level 6 you're getting *18 hp*.
If you have two potions, revitalize will give you more HP if you're below 40% for even one of the potions.
Yes but you buy them at level 1.
If you use the potions to gain 18 HP at level 1, you're still going to have that HP at level 4.
In most games, until you reach 15 stacks on Overgrowth and get that +70ish HP, Overgrowth does nothing.
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Like I'm not saying Revitalize is good early, I think it's trash. But Overgrowth is also trash early. You're literally arguing for 18 HP. In a MAJORITY of games, 18 HP is not going to matter at level 6 (I think it's around 10 HP at level 4?)
I literally made a post titled "REVITALIZE IS A SCAM" i do not think you should be taking revitalize.
But I'm saying your argument about Overgrowth being good levels 4, 5 and 6 makes no sense.
Well I mean at it's core, builds and runes are a numbers game. Revitalize USED to be good on solo laners that could abuse it w/ gore/steraks etc., but nowadays it's fairly lackluster. Only specific champions that can take advantage of the healing (and even then I'd argue that Overgrowth still outpaces Revitalize as the game progresses) run it.
You would expect Shen to be one of the solo laner champs that should take revitalize over overgrowth. If it’s not even good enough for Shen then it might just be too weak.
Why would you expect that? Revitalize gives 5-10% healing/shielding power. Shen has no healing other than base regen. His shield scales off max HP, and overgrowth at 120 stacks gives 45 health + 3.5% max HP. which stacks with itself and scales beyond that. Revitalize barely gives you more shielding unless you're below 40% health, but it has to give enough extra shielding to make up for the health you're not getting as well (not to mention Shen's taunt also scales with max health). Let's say you have 3,000 max health at level 11. Your passive gives you a 440 health shield. Revitalize only increases that by 22, up to 44 if you're below 40% health. Even if for some reason you've only been around 120 dead minions in the entire game, overgrowth gives you 107 bonus health, while also increasing your shielding by 13. This is why revitalize is only a rune for champions with large amounts of healing/shielding that don't also scale off bonus health. Shen has 2 abilities with shields, but both also scale off bonus health, so the power of revitalize by comparison is massively reduced. Even for solo laners that would fit, the removal of goredrinker made it a lot weaker, so it's mostly for enchanters now.
Well reasoned for Shen, but one wonders whether it's good on *any* champ if it's putting out such low numbers.
Renekton, mordekaiser, and poppy say hello. Shen generates 2 shields ever, and one of them is his ulti. Revitalize is great on champs with multiple sources of healing and shielding through their kit/items. Renekton for example shields with Eclipse and steraks/maw, and heals with Q, sundered sky(when he builds it) and conquerer, morde shields and heals with W as well as generating healing from riftmaker and conq., poppy shields with passive, Fimbulwinter, and possibly Kaenic Rookern and heals with grasp and Sundered Sky Comparatively shen has… grasp and his self shield which has never particularly impressed me in terms of contributing to his overall HP relative to what other champs can do.
Olaf enters the chat, no but in reality most champs benefit from overgrowth more.
I mean yeah I thought this was pretty well known? Revitalize isn't for bruisers, it's for enchanters.
This question is rampant on the Illaoi subreddit as well. But the numbers have always been clear both in game and on sites like Lolalytics. Revitalize is a bait rune. Also why take it when grievous exists.
I haven't taken Revitalize in years. Setting aside the lackluster effect, most champs in resolve scale better with HP overall anyway. All resolve keystones and half the minor runes scale with HP. Nearly every tank and most bruisers/juggernauts have at least one HP scaling ability or item. It just has no value on these champ classes. Maybe that's the point? Who knows? Revitalize is still strong, arguably standard, on many white-mage enchanters. Ultimately, I'm unconcerned. It's okay to have runes that suit different roles and champ classes better than others.
I've been taking it on my Senna recently. Admittedly, I've just been copying rune builds on Lolalytics and there are enough samples that show Revitalize is competitive. I do sometimes take the Inspiration rune that gives extra ms walking towards someone you slowed if enemy is kite-ish, but it just feels right to have Revitalize for extra healing. Didn't know tanks were taking it, I thought it would've been exclusive for shielders/healers.
i would have thought revitalise would suck on shen anyhows. his shields are kinda weak early and scales with hp already. also his w negates some of the shield benefits if it stacks together, which is not uncommon. i see revitalise as more of a mid game rune. champs like mundo could probably use it very well, and u could make an small and weak argument for renekton or reksai. but yeah i would take overgrowth on most top laners. hp regen is already a weak stat for combat and raw hp is basically always better except in very niche cases
Afaik revitalise Was picked in the past to get more healing out of second Wind, Dorans and pots so you can survive longer in lane because shen has no other sustain.
i thought everyone knew revitalize is for enchanters lmfao
Pretty good on warwick top
But is it? Is the healing/shield early game worth the trade off of having less health from overgrowth late game? When i do play ww top im usually more concerned about my mana than my lack of healing
As warwick top you are always playing below 50% hp in lane, so every auto you get the benefit from revitalize, imo it's a must and it heals for so much. Also W>E>Q max is really good for toplane warwick, it also removes your mana problems
I build botrk 1st, so it's just healing on healing. E 2nd is new to me. I go w>q>e. So why e 2nd?
Lower cooldown and more % damage reduction, it makes u really tanky in fights if you use it correctly. Maxing Q instead makes it cost a ridiculous amount of mana so its not really worth imo. I basically just copied the build of H0rnlime, but I don't really play warwick top anymore so idk how much he has changed
I take it on Morde. His W double dips with Revitalize
Yeah I have been choosing Overgrowth over Revitalize for a few seasons for any champ that isn't enchanter, I thought it was obvious but it apparently isn't. Nowadays Revitalize is only worth it on enchanter or if you are going for the Ingenious Fimbul + Despair (+ other stuffs like Eclipse) build.
There’s a case for Revitalize on Fiora because you’re constantly trying to heal off DBlade, vitals, ult, and Ravenous Hydra. But otherwise, I don’t see how it’s better for solo lancers than overgrowth.
You'll have to heal 1000 health for Revitalize to give you +150 HP in a fight in the best (unrealistic) case scenario. This is before considering that your lane opponent bought Bramble Vest. Just take Overgrowth.
Fiora at level 11 has an ult that heals for 500+300% bonus ad. Assuming you have ravenous + eclipse at this point, that’s 920 healing off the ult alone, not including the 73 each vital proc gives, ravenous lifesteal, conqueror, or eclipse shield. Overgrowth on the other hand will only give ~110-130 HP at this point (25 waves to get to level 11 plus assuming some camps for a total of 175 deaths). Healing reduction of course influences the math, but I’d argue in extended fights revitalize wins, while overgrowth is better into burst.
Fiora can hit that much healing in a lategame fight pretty easily. But yeah Overgrowth much better early.
You need inbuilt kit healing for it to be worth it, renekton for example has a decent win rate with the rune because it still adds up a lot over time. Of course it is compulsory for champions like soraka and sona
Basically overgrowth is the only viable rune in the bottom resolve tree. Unflinching is also incredibly bad after rework. Every champ that runs resolve primary or secondary does remarkably better with overgrowth right now, and it's not even close.
I pick revitalize when i am playing a bruiser champion and i have heavy shield/healing champions on my team. Example: playing as Urgot with Lux mid and Soraka support. But yeah, overgrowth is probably the right choice in 95% of the games.
I think they know how bad the rune is and this is why new unflinching is so bad. They want the row to have similar power level.
The rune was always trash to begin with. Now it's even more useless. That rune slot has the worst runes, but Overgrowth is the best out of those three.
is this still the case for someone like Poppy? I've really liked the eclipse/fimbulwinter item abuse build (not sure if it's still viable). it seems pretty decent with the passive shield, double shield items and grasp. I may just swap to overgrowth every game if the consensus is the rune is just that terrible though. thanks!
When did the dorans change happen?
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9z3tj5/dorans_shield_and_revitalize/ Has it ever worked? This is 5 years ago
Unless you value earlygame that much (scorch is 10x better earlygame) or play specific champion, overgrowth is better option. Since overgrowth give ~5% max hp, If we ignore % dmg, you need to gain 100%/33% extra hp to match flat hp, but 167%/56% under healing debuff. You never that unless your aatrox or mordekaiser that can use shield below 40% hp. Anyway green tree isn't good since they reduced condition bonuses to 3% & 12-th min and removed unflinching from game. Your better getting more ofensive runes & half offensive items like banshe or edge of night.
Shen isn't exactly a good user of Revitalise though, only one shield and no self heal. Compare that to Volibear who has both a shield and a self heal within his kit, without items also offering healing and shielding.
i dont play shen, i only know one thing DORANS KLINGE UNTERSCHIED
The stats get skewed on revitalize because it procs when you're healing in fountain so it's hard to guage
Overgrowth has been better this whole season on virtually Every champ. I try overgrowth/conditioning on most melees in this season if possible.
I actually don't think Conditioning is **that** great after its nerfs anymore. On a squishy it was previously 14 armor/MR. Now it's 11 armor/MR. On bruisers it was previously 19 armor/MR and now it's 14 armor/MR. (Assuming squishy has ~100 armor and bruisers have ~200 armor, which could easily be wrong so do your own math) --- Of course it's still the best scaling rune. But I don't necessarily think it's OP, I think second wind is great in lane. And I also think Bone Plating is actually somewhat underrated late game because they can't just play around it and not hit you unless you get hit with something like Lux E. (So if you're diving them as Irelia for instance, you basically get a 180 HP shield for 1.5s when hit)
BP is quite good and second wind is definitely something that is abusable in certain match ups (sett vs everoyne, everyone vs dot) I still value it over most other options (also im taking sorcery/green/yellow combination on 99% of melees). Im also a big legend tenacity user. My main thing is not that conditioning is hella op, it is quite good at value of 2-4% damage reduction depending on how much magic pen and resistance you already had, but rather that most of blue isn't great(i cant remember the last time i took scorch, celerity, water walking (not a jungle player) however gathering, transendance and mana flow mana are awesome. Red is almost ENTIRELY useless. Sudden impact is op but every single other rune is mid to bad. UH with Malignance for some ult cheeses i guess Light blue is quite good but situation. Approach is one of the best runes in teh game I would go so far as to say just the best rune, situationally), potion is VERY under rated and biscuits are always ok, demetralizer sometimes very useful sometimes a way to last hit caddies.
Overgrowth in combination with scaling hp shard can also help out a lot in harder lanes where you can play the early levels slower and have a noticeable hp advantage around level 4,5,6.
TBH I would not call that noticeable at all, overgrowth level 6 you're getting *18 hp*. If you have two potions, revitalize will give you more HP if you're below 40% for even one of the potions.
You shouldn’t be buying potions at level 6. That’s 100 gold.
Yes but you buy them at level 1. If you use the potions to gain 18 HP at level 1, you're still going to have that HP at level 4. In most games, until you reach 15 stacks on Overgrowth and get that +70ish HP, Overgrowth does nothing. --- Like I'm not saying Revitalize is good early, I think it's trash. But Overgrowth is also trash early. You're literally arguing for 18 HP. In a MAJORITY of games, 18 HP is not going to matter at level 6 (I think it's around 10 HP at level 4?)
Potions as your reasoning to take revitalize over a clearly better rune just doesn’t make sense. Use whatever you want though.
I literally made a post titled "REVITALIZE IS A SCAM" i do not think you should be taking revitalize. But I'm saying your argument about Overgrowth being good levels 4, 5 and 6 makes no sense.