Good - he’s grown.
You have to think about the fact he has reappeared - 10,000 years later - to a galaxy where his brothers are dead, lost, or now enemies; the imperium he knew failed, and he had his doubts at the time anyway.
He needs his legion/sons back - and he needs to better understand what exactly the imperium has been doing; we saw Girlyman go through the same questions.
Son of the Forest shines a good light on the fact he knew he had to grow and adapt.
ETA - the evolution of the loyalist primarchs is an excellent foil for that of the traitors. The traitors still want the same thing - rinse and repeat - and this new approach by the loyalists changes the shape of the general plot.
ETA 2 - the emperor gave Girlyman his sword, and Lion his shield. The symbolism here is pure.
For his personality? I love it, he changed, he learned his lessons from the past, he know the Emperor is no longer in charge and all his loyal brothers are gone, same can be said to most of his sons that were with him during the GC. He knows he made mistakes because of his past doing, his scheme, plans, secrets causes problems to his legion, and he took note of that. He realized he has none of the luxury he used to have.
To go for crusade, u need stable supply lines, allies from nearby system and supports from people, back in 30k Emperor already prepare all of that for the Lion, but right now in 40k, with the state of Imperium Nihilus, his army is stuck, communication is cut from the wider imperium, everyone confused and in panic state. While the corrupt government took their chances to took the world riches for themselves knowing they no longer need to obey the Imperium.
The Lion knows he needs to change, he needs to be someone people can look up for, people' s saviour, knowing humanity could no longer rely on the Emperor and his dead brothers. Thats why he have been crusading and liberating worlds to let them know that he and his legion are still with them, while trying to find his lost sons that still wanted to be part of the Legions.
Old Lion was a great warrior but he was a bad leader. He let mistrust and (mis)communication rankle through his entire army/planet, to spectacular results.
New lion has started to mature and learn from his mistakes and the one of novel’s themes is Lionel learning to take care of those around him in order to build a firm foundation.
He had to learn this lesson first before any campaign or it would mean either his death, or yet another rebellion in whatever enforced pocket of order he’d manage to scrape together.
Also given the massive warp rift, it would be foolhardy to try and force recruit an army, and then leave the planets to the wolves while he tries to search for Guilliman.
I’m partly with you, but compared to pre-Lion legion, the First was doing MUCH better under him. Without the Lion they had essentially fractured like the Night Lords Post Thramas, none of the companies trusted each other even slightly, no one told each other anything, and entire Fleets would just go split off and do whatever. The Lion in 30k acted as a glue within the Legion, even if he was secretive. The fact the Legion directly under him never turned says a lot. The parts that turned were on Caliban or very far from the Legion.
The way I see it he had a force of will that kept everyone in his direct influence on board, but the moment he stepped away, his forces were vulnerable to manipulation and deceit.
The alienation of half his legion, Luther, and the destruction of Caliban mirrors the Horus Heresy on a smaller scale. Few primarchs had to put down schisms within their legion; those that did largely had the Lodges to blame, and those lodge warriors still believed in their Primarchs, they just wanted to side with Horus more than the Emperor.
However in the Lion’s case, he took his #2 in leadership and war, gave him an important, but alienating position away from the main forces, and trusted Luther with the responsibility of securing the legion’s recruitment while The Lion went off to do all the exciting work.
He failed to see, or didn’t care that Luther saw this as an honorary demotion, barely bothered to receive his men when they did leave Caliban to talk with him and express their worries, and generally took them for granted.
Much is said about what parts of the Emperor each Primarch embodies, I think The Lion was given the cold calculation that prevented both of them from being able to assure their sons of their missions and purpose, since both managed to bungle their unity right around the time they appointed an honorary position and then faded from public life. Without their direct influence, angst and alienation set into their forces and, speaking for the Lion, he made little effort to repair the rifts once they were apparent, he simply trusted everyone to do their duty.
To give the Lion a modern comparison, it’s like a leader in an office took the cream of their staff to work on some exciting project for years, and left everyone that remained to deal with the back end and maintenance of the company’s legacy projects and systems. Lion put his backend team in a position of trust, but failed to meet their need for inspiration (or greater purpose). When he finally did return to meet the backend, he found formerly level headed staff were now embittered or left, and once trusted seniors poisoning the company’s new recruits with resentment.
It’s that part of his nature that he had to check and fix, Old Lion woke up to a galaxy with none of the infrastructure or trust that let him lead off in the front, he had to create a foundation that wouldn’t buckle before he could go off and do what he does best. Especially given his physical abilities had diminished and he could no longer count on his Astartes to not simply shoot him if he turned his back, given the grievance many Fallen had that they were simply caught in the middle of a rather messy divorce.
If he simply woke up unchanged (in mindset), he would have had to kill a number of his own astartes until the remains accepted his leadership, then he’d have conscripted a force large enough to go to war, and leave the conscripted planets to fend for themselves while he went out into the stars to fulfil his chosen mission. He’d alienate the recruited planets by simply appearing and taking what he wanted, he’d alienate his conscripts by leaving their home worlds undefended. Before long he’d have another rebellion on his hands as the worlds faltered and his troops realised that The (old) Lion takes their duty for granted, and isn’t putting in effort to ease their concerns.
You can definitely take different conclusions from the stories, that’s the great nature of the setting.
The way I see it, The Lion is a stern old Patriarch who has had to learn to soften after realising that his style of authority wasn’t building trust in him and his wider goals, no matter how noble the mission statements might have been.
I don't actually think he has changed as much as we think.
His nature remains unchanged, the only development is essentially in his communication skills.
If we look at the example of Savine in the HH primarch book, a lot of stuff happened because she got the hump that the Lion didn't notice her or give a shit.
He *did* though, but he didn't bother communicating that to her.
He's different now in terms of understanding that in order to better defend the helpless ones, he has to have a dialogue with them.
So I think with the Lion it's genuine personal growth rather than a personality change.
**To help the helpless ones
Who all look up to you
And to defend them
To the end**
Hard agree.
Also, to paraphase the Primarch novella - he loves his sons but does not really show it and instead drives them hard. 40k Lion shows his love and trust towards them a lot more openly and is in general more forgiving.
The Lion, once again proving that he is the OG Primarch, succeeded at what all of his brothers have failed - character growth. Doubly important for a character that was quite flawed (and still is) from the start. So, yes, he's different. And that's a good thing. He still does what he does best, but he now does it with a clear motivation beyond "it's what daddy ordered me to do". He's basically gone back to his roots, to what he did (and the reasons for it) before the Emperor found him. Saving people, hunting things.
That’s an interesting variation. However, I think that the Lion’s center post Luther finding him has somewhat always been about protection. We know way too little about the Rangda but with both sides of the Third Xenocides pathway the Lion goes out to kill a major threat regardless of orders. Or in the Primarch Novel where he hunts of his own volition. Even Thramas is done to hunt the Eighth and Secundus arguably to hunt Guilliman. It’s just far more… aggressive.
Sure, he always did things to protect the Imperium, but only as a byproduct of being hardwired to hunt down threats, not matter the cost. So much so that collateral damage on the local scale was acceptable to him of it meant removing a galactic level threat. Note his behaviour during Imperium Secundus and the exact circumstances which led to its dissolution (specifically, the methods by which the 1st eventually eliminated the Nightlords threat on Macragge). This absolute, "end-justifies-the-means" approach is used to characterise the Lion over and over, it's what most often leads to conflict with his Allies (along his generally "unsociable" nature) and his refusal to explain himself to anyone exacerbates these issues. No matter his *intention*, the outcome pre-return was always "mission accomplished, consequences be damned". Which fits with the general MO of the 1st Legion, obviously, but more often than not resulted in the death and destruction of those his actions were meant to safeguard, at least on the local scale. The survivors were safe - if there were any. And on other occasions, like Rangda, the Lion is so far removed from those he supposedly protects with his campaigns that it becomes more a matter of "the Emperor says it needs to die, so it dies".
Post-return, we're seeing the psychological effect the events on Caliban had on him, especially in regards to the cost of his actions and the scorched earth left behind by his methods.
If we look at it from a more meta perspective, the Lions arc in his new book is basically almost the only way to reconcile the character somewhat with the very changed nature of the Imperium in M42. The old Lion would have been way too confrontational as a character to integrate seemlessly into the storyline, and having him wisen up to his mistakes makes him an interesting POV who is much less focused on a grand, practical design like Guilliman and more focused on the problem at hand - Imperium Nihilus, and presumably the Tyranids in the future. That is facilitated by making him lean more towards immediately protecting humans from acute danger rather than "always the nuclear option, all the time". He's won some agency, in a manner of speaking.
We're seeing a new attitude, a new old motivation and a changed outlook and reflection on the consequences of his actions, and especially the latter was something we can observe in some of the later heresy novels, but we never see the real conclusion of the development until Son of the Forest.
You make a good point. He is just now having the opportunity to look back at his "ends justify the means" approach for the last few years (relative) and his most recent memories being Thramas, banishment by G-man, the purging of the traitor worlds, and finally Caliban and the breaking. The first person he came back to was Zabriel, who gave the hard truth to him with both barrels fully expecting to be killed for it. Even your most autistic friend finally starts to catch on when presented with enough evidence that they're acting like a dick.
Also, unlike his brother, he seems more willing to go back to just doing his own version of "the right thing" than try to operate within the bounds of what's acceptable.
I don't think it's even about willingness, to be honest. They still are creatures of habit, both of them, and Guilliman will always strive to streamline, to organise, to create an efficient process by which to overcome an issue. His approach will always be to create a system. Guilliman bends the system to his purpose, the Lion bypasses it. It makes either of them very good at specific things.
I think they'll find some commonality though in their changed outlooks. Whatever vision of the Imperium they may subscribe to, it certainly isn't the reality they find themselves in. Both of their world views have been challenged since their return.
The change is the whole reason I started collecting DA. The secrets bollocks & and arsehole primarch was quite boring to me; the understanding that he handled something poorly and distilling his mission into saving what he can is so excellent.
The Lion's return had me pick up his model and build a full Dark Angels 40k army for 10th. It wasn't because they were strong in the meta but because the lore is so good.
I'm not a reader and haven't really spent time reading books outside textbooks for my degree and some required reading but his book, Lion Son of the Forest, was impossible to put down. It was just that good that even a non-reader like me would enjoy it.
All my lore knowledge comes from podcasts, videos, rulebooks, and memes. After reading about his return, I was so into the lore that I ordered the omnibus and I'm halfway into Cypher's book just because of the Lion's return. I am slightly disappointed though with the lore updates from the new codex as it doesn't feel like the same character that redeemed the fallen as it was described that the Dark Angels continue to hunt the fallen and the Lion occassionally interrupts the interrogation instead of doing his best to redeem the uncorrupted fallen.
The intrigue, backstabbing, self serving and inefficiency were staples of the 40K imperium. I 100% agree that it reads like some poor fanfic that all of that has at the top been resolved. Bringing back a Prinarch always was going to be a big deal but I think it would have been better handled had Gilliman had to continually use his political and social ingenuity to constantly out pace or short circuit his removal.
The Lion as well. Things would be far more interesting if, while the average person sees them as something akin to the second coming, those high up in power either fear or hate them because they could expose them or remove them for incompetence. Even then, in universe, some might contend that the return of the Primarchs is a bad thing because it puts power back into the hands of super humans that they cannot relate or even comprehend. The loss of control would be a more interesting angle to cover, especially for the high lords. The delicate balance that would need to be struck to keep the imperium together is far more interesting than, it just magically working.
Totally with you on regards to how he was written for his return. It just feels wrong and cheap. I feel like if Lion had woken up on the Rock, which is what we were essentially told would happen, things would have been very different and the arc would have been more earned.
In relation to the latter part: The thing is the old Lion KNEW he wasn’t a politician or a bureaucrat. Guillimans alive? Great! He can handle that nonsense. I’m going to go kick in some Tyranid teeth. And The Traitors’ for that matter.
Also they should have at least some flak. Guilliman DID break the Lion Sword.
I was going to say this. You just said it better than I ever could have.
As an individual he’s grown and improved and he’s unquestionably a better person. It’s just happened in a boring way, we haven’t seen him battle to overcome his flaws and we no longer need to wonder when his serious flaws will bite the Dark Angel’s or Imperium in the arse.
Hopefully his quest to redeem the Fallen will add some more interest back into his story arc.
As others have stated, he has gained character development. So much is different now that he cannot just go around being captain genocide anymore.
Also, that bed is entirely too small for him, he will break it.
Yapp, he changed of course. But do you really prefer that cocky arsehole that destroyed his homeworld just to make a point? Pre Heresy Dark Angels were like "There's one traitor on this Hive World and I don't have any motivation to ask all the ppl here who could it be." "Sir, may it be the one with the horns..." "Tztztz, I said I don't want to ask around! EXTERMINATUS!"
Pre Heresy Lion threw around with Exterminati like other chapters use Drop Pods. He was a lose gun, now he's an old man regretting some live's decisions.
This is called character development. Ppl change and it's not wrong that they change, it's a natural process and therefore it's also good that the Lion changed after he had ten thousand years to reevaluate his past steps. And he came to the conclusion that he was a knob-headed, stupid, short tempered asshole that has no right to judge his kin for their mistakes, because he did a lot more of them.
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. While the First did do a LOT of Exterminatus, you also have to know what they were fighting. They were essentially fighting the very worst the galaxy had to offer. The Rangda, Slaugh, the whatever they were called from the Primarch Novel. In relation to Caliban, we KNOW he was shot at first. Astelan and Luther both admitted it. So the Lion treated Caliban is being in a rebellion similar to full traitor Legions, and did what he did to the likes of Chemos and Nuceria.
So, if someone honked at you, you get out of your car and beat them up? That's about how justified the destruction of Caliban was. The Lion is intentionally designed to be an arsehole... like many other Astartes and the biggest jerk of all... their gene-father.
Yes, they were fighting bad stuff, but their Exterminatus count was unmatched during the 31st millennium. The pre heresy Lion pretty much was a war criminal, like many Astartes are. The Lion also was infamous for not giving a shit about collateral damages. Dude, he destroyed his home, because someone shot at him. He didn't know if everybody was corrupted or just so scared that they shot before they asked any questions. The Pre-Heresy Lion is the master of overreactions.
Also, just imagine you were left back home, while your Primarch goes on a big crusade to aid the Emperor. Communication broke down, you didn't hear anything from your dada in years. They even didn't know if the war was lost or won. They had to assume the worst. And then suddenly a fleet warps into their orbit... the first ships in a very very long time. So they fired a salvo like a "Yo, bro. Stay away!"... meanwhile on the Lion's flagship: "EEEEEEEXTEEEEEEERMINAAAAAAATUUUUUUUUSSSSSS!!!!!!!"
Is having a talk really that hard? I'm sure Caliban was still a prospering world, if the Lion just reacted with: "Stop shooting! It's me! Daddy's home, biatches! And I'm still loyal!"... but instead he didn't even hesitate to destroy a whole civilization. It's really hard to believe that the Watchers are okay with that. If my Homeworld was blasted away because of a misunderstanding, I'd hated that guy to the guts. I also would build up a whole culture around hating that guy to hold the grudge till the last days of the universe.
But the Lion needs that troubled past to feel ashamed. Because that is the whole shtick about Dark Angels. In the end we are based on a poem of the same name. Dark Angel by Lionel Johnson (no joke) is about the author's shame about his own desires and the fear that others find out. Lionel Johnson was homosexual btw... homosexual in Victorian England. Like Blood Angels' thing is Blood, the Space Wolves being werewolf vikings in space and the Ultramarines' thing is being blue, our thing is to be ashamed of something nobody is allowed to know. Taking that away from us, is almost like saying that Blood Angels overcame the red thirst... what stays is a chapter like any else... just with golden jump marines.
By revealing all the secret and getting rid of the shame that made it necessary to keep the secrets in the first place, you also delete the need for the Inner Circle and that would change a lot in our faction. It's initially the only thing that makes us special. The whole Deathwing exists only in its recent form as a somewhat connected force because the don't want to spread the knowledge uncontrollably. So in all consequence that means: No secrets, no special Terminators.
I'l also buck the trend and say I'm not really a fan of new Lion, he's a more rounded, sensible understanding leader, and I hate it, I want my arrogant unreasonable brooder with no social skills back.
As others before me have said his character growth feels unearned, he just wakes up with more self reflection and patience than he had before and continues this new arc.
I take comfort that the codex didn't really show this side of him, there was more of the unknowable aloof leader there in his dealings with the modern dark angels.
I love it. It isn't how I would have written it, but he is written well enough. And he hasn't quite lost his edge. When he met Dante for the first time he raged and approached him quickly. The BA drew weapons on him and he didn't give a fuck. Or near the beginning of the new novel, they had no weapons to attack a Chaos outpost. "The plan, my Lord?" "ERADICATE THEM"
I think he comes off as....less dumb? For me, I always liked the Lion for this intangible sense of power he has. Some mystic ability to win against anything but we don't know how, he isn't like Magnus or the others with some set abilities and powers, he's just kind of like Guts from Berserk, somehow finds a way. I feel like he was written poorly early on sometimes and now we just kind of have to deal with it. Oh, and he can teleport now, which is dope.
We're seeing a practical Lion now, and the Fallen story line was always shitty, so he has to deal with it the best way possible, can't have traitors running around after all.
While I'm fanboying, there are 2 things I would like to see.
1. Lion effortlessly destroying Asterion Moloch when he tries to tell what he can or can't do at the Palace. I'm talking open handed slap that kills him so fast the Custodes couldn't track it.
2. Black Templars making an off hand comment about how the DA abandoned them and Lion curtly telling them not to worry, he will take care of things too hard for them to handle from now on.
Brothers and sisters. We have walked the spiral path and we have bound ourselves by oath and iron. We remember old Caliban as we remember our duty yet done, the pretenders, the betrayers, the Fallen. Our Shame.
We would rejoice to know our primarch again. *If he were among us.*
Heed this and consider the forests of old Caliban. Never did they deliver succour or salvation, never did they strengthen our arms, send galant knights or saviours. The forests only ever offered horrors, great beasts and trickery.
Why then is this creature delivered to us by the forrest? Why does it embrace our shame, taking Traitors for retinue and Pretenders for honour guard.
Why does it eschew our traditions and neglect the Honoured Deathwing?
This is not our primarch. This is a changeling of Old Caliban and fear for us that you do not see it.
I don't quite agree with his forgiveness of the Fallen and how little he escalates the Unforgiven's mad search for the Fallen.
The problem for me, is that physical ageing doesn't equate mental ageing in the way the book treats it.
The Tywin Lannister memes actually rather fit for the type of character he has now suddenly become. He feels a bit much like a politician, which is kind of the opposite he was during Imperium Secundus, the Heresy and Scouring.
But I'm also in the Camp of people that kind of ignore or disregard, lore that came after 8th and the 13th Black Crusade and all it's Lore breaking shenanigans.
Heresy is still somewhat decent and coherent so I'll happily stay there, though the more recent Campaign books try their best to break lore as well :/
To me the Lion doesn’t feel the same. It doesn’t feel like a learned lesson, it feels like a simplification. The proud master of the Legion, known amongst his brothers for attacking any threat large enough to truly threaten the Imperium, without a legion. Without the drive he once had. Without the brutality, the finesse of the blade, the determined pace and prowl of a predator. The Lion as I know him should be getting every scrap of information, uniting his Legion as he once did to secure the Imperium. Tracking down his brother to see what can be done, and then sailing into the void to take on the threat. Instead he forges his own empire? What happened to his take on Secundus? His loyalty? His sense of honor? By the throne, when Curze said the Lion would only be remembered as hesitant fists began flying! Now he sits relatively idle? Concealing himself from his true brother and his little brothers?
I hate to say it, brothers and sisters. But the Lion may truly be sitting on the sidelines, just like Curze said he’d be remembered. Waiting, hidden, alone, disloyal.
Edit: Yeah this is what I get for writing while sleep deprived. I think there’s a better way to summarize my feelings on the matter. The Lion has been made more generic, if that makes sense. Like Primaris when they first released for those that remember that era. Different model, claimed to be the same, but really not. Even shorter: It’s forced, not earned.
So I guess the first point is that he has just come back. His novel starts with him thinking that Imperium is gone, all his brothers are dead, his dad is dead and that he has to make the best of a bad situation. Hitting things and putting under protection the human settlements he finds.
The novel then ends with him finding out Guilliman is alive and the Imperium lives. An Imperium he has come to despise as backward, full of religious zealots, Byzantine in its structures and inefficient to its core. It's also really important to remember that he is stuck in a half of the Imperium that is totally cut off from the other half, full of horrors and danger, even more so than the other half. We have no idea how potent his Forest Walk is, how it works, or even if the Lion is the one controlling it.
The codex is really a holding document, as they always are. Good on the past, mysterious and vague about the present and future. This is by design so you can imprint what you want onto it. You can decide what he is doing and what his musings mean.
To me he is needed way more in Imperium Nihilus as a great protector than he is in Sanctus. The Emperor (if we assume he is the Fisher King and the Rotting King of his visions) is basically telling him the same too. Probably a good thing too, he would not have the tact or the ability of Guilliman as an administrator. He would probably have had half the High Lords put to death straight away and there is no way he would have dealt with them like Guilliman did in Regents Shadow".
All in all I disagree, to a point. He wants to rebuild civilization in Nihilus to protect the humans there. However he does not want to rebuild the 40k Imperium and who could blame him, it's pretty awful (not that 30K was much better). For all we know he is actively talking to Guilliman using the Forest Walk ability and those are the whispers in his chamber, he could be talking to Elvis and Jesus Christ if you want to decide that right now. We'll just have to wait and see.
>I hate to say it, brothers and sisters. But the Lion may truly be sitting on the sidelines, just like Curze said he’d be remembered. Waiting, hidden, alone, disloyal.
I might have missed the point, but isn't that super cool? The lonesome and mysterious Green Knight from Arthurian Legend that is almost percieved as a spiritual manifestation, a ghost of the past aiding his sons. Becoming something like the Legion of the Damned, an imperial Saint that helps out in the direst of days, while not getting back into the saddle as the leader of the Legion, because that's not what a lonewolf edge lord does.
1. He still has his drive and all the lethality and strength. He just doesn't have the resources he used to and is making do with what he does have.
2. He is doing what he can to protect the people of the Imperium, not building a new empire. He **explicitly** says as much. It is his honor and loyalty driving him to do this.
3. How exactly is he "sitting on the sidelines" when he's actively fighting throughout Imperium Nihilus and aiding Imperial forces where he can?
4. He is not waiting, not hidden, not alone, and definitely not disloyal. He is the opposite of all of those things.
Honestly mate it feels like you're deliberately misunderstanding all this stuff to have something to complain about.
I mean fair enough. The disloyal part was definitely pushing it: Courtesy of sleep deprived brain. His return still hits me in all the wrong ways, if that makes sense. Some stuff has remained, but he feels… simplified? I’m not sure what the right word is. He feels more like a generic Primarch (if such a thing exists) than the Lion.
I get what you mean, i think the current lion would be fine, if theyd given it time to develop.
It feels too sudden, id have liked to see him butt heads with the contemporary universe more before toning down.
Its a ddifferent and somewhat worse version of his hh self, but having a war crime daddy who cant be reasoned with would be far less appealing in the setting he is in now
It was a needed growth that has a good foundation
Good - he’s grown. You have to think about the fact he has reappeared - 10,000 years later - to a galaxy where his brothers are dead, lost, or now enemies; the imperium he knew failed, and he had his doubts at the time anyway. He needs his legion/sons back - and he needs to better understand what exactly the imperium has been doing; we saw Girlyman go through the same questions. Son of the Forest shines a good light on the fact he knew he had to grow and adapt. ETA - the evolution of the loyalist primarchs is an excellent foil for that of the traitors. The traitors still want the same thing - rinse and repeat - and this new approach by the loyalists changes the shape of the general plot. ETA 2 - the emperor gave Girlyman his sword, and Lion his shield. The symbolism here is pure.
MrBones just did a video on this and basically expanded this point, showing the true depth the lion has as a character
For his personality? I love it, he changed, he learned his lessons from the past, he know the Emperor is no longer in charge and all his loyal brothers are gone, same can be said to most of his sons that were with him during the GC. He knows he made mistakes because of his past doing, his scheme, plans, secrets causes problems to his legion, and he took note of that. He realized he has none of the luxury he used to have. To go for crusade, u need stable supply lines, allies from nearby system and supports from people, back in 30k Emperor already prepare all of that for the Lion, but right now in 40k, with the state of Imperium Nihilus, his army is stuck, communication is cut from the wider imperium, everyone confused and in panic state. While the corrupt government took their chances to took the world riches for themselves knowing they no longer need to obey the Imperium. The Lion knows he needs to change, he needs to be someone people can look up for, people' s saviour, knowing humanity could no longer rely on the Emperor and his dead brothers. Thats why he have been crusading and liberating worlds to let them know that he and his legion are still with them, while trying to find his lost sons that still wanted to be part of the Legions.
Old Lion was a great warrior but he was a bad leader. He let mistrust and (mis)communication rankle through his entire army/planet, to spectacular results. New lion has started to mature and learn from his mistakes and the one of novel’s themes is Lionel learning to take care of those around him in order to build a firm foundation. He had to learn this lesson first before any campaign or it would mean either his death, or yet another rebellion in whatever enforced pocket of order he’d manage to scrape together. Also given the massive warp rift, it would be foolhardy to try and force recruit an army, and then leave the planets to the wolves while he tries to search for Guilliman.
I’m partly with you, but compared to pre-Lion legion, the First was doing MUCH better under him. Without the Lion they had essentially fractured like the Night Lords Post Thramas, none of the companies trusted each other even slightly, no one told each other anything, and entire Fleets would just go split off and do whatever. The Lion in 30k acted as a glue within the Legion, even if he was secretive. The fact the Legion directly under him never turned says a lot. The parts that turned were on Caliban or very far from the Legion.
The way I see it he had a force of will that kept everyone in his direct influence on board, but the moment he stepped away, his forces were vulnerable to manipulation and deceit. The alienation of half his legion, Luther, and the destruction of Caliban mirrors the Horus Heresy on a smaller scale. Few primarchs had to put down schisms within their legion; those that did largely had the Lodges to blame, and those lodge warriors still believed in their Primarchs, they just wanted to side with Horus more than the Emperor. However in the Lion’s case, he took his #2 in leadership and war, gave him an important, but alienating position away from the main forces, and trusted Luther with the responsibility of securing the legion’s recruitment while The Lion went off to do all the exciting work. He failed to see, or didn’t care that Luther saw this as an honorary demotion, barely bothered to receive his men when they did leave Caliban to talk with him and express their worries, and generally took them for granted. Much is said about what parts of the Emperor each Primarch embodies, I think The Lion was given the cold calculation that prevented both of them from being able to assure their sons of their missions and purpose, since both managed to bungle their unity right around the time they appointed an honorary position and then faded from public life. Without their direct influence, angst and alienation set into their forces and, speaking for the Lion, he made little effort to repair the rifts once they were apparent, he simply trusted everyone to do their duty. To give the Lion a modern comparison, it’s like a leader in an office took the cream of their staff to work on some exciting project for years, and left everyone that remained to deal with the back end and maintenance of the company’s legacy projects and systems. Lion put his backend team in a position of trust, but failed to meet their need for inspiration (or greater purpose). When he finally did return to meet the backend, he found formerly level headed staff were now embittered or left, and once trusted seniors poisoning the company’s new recruits with resentment. It’s that part of his nature that he had to check and fix, Old Lion woke up to a galaxy with none of the infrastructure or trust that let him lead off in the front, he had to create a foundation that wouldn’t buckle before he could go off and do what he does best. Especially given his physical abilities had diminished and he could no longer count on his Astartes to not simply shoot him if he turned his back, given the grievance many Fallen had that they were simply caught in the middle of a rather messy divorce. If he simply woke up unchanged (in mindset), he would have had to kill a number of his own astartes until the remains accepted his leadership, then he’d have conscripted a force large enough to go to war, and leave the conscripted planets to fend for themselves while he went out into the stars to fulfil his chosen mission. He’d alienate the recruited planets by simply appearing and taking what he wanted, he’d alienate his conscripts by leaving their home worlds undefended. Before long he’d have another rebellion on his hands as the worlds faltered and his troops realised that The (old) Lion takes their duty for granted, and isn’t putting in effort to ease their concerns. You can definitely take different conclusions from the stories, that’s the great nature of the setting. The way I see it, The Lion is a stern old Patriarch who has had to learn to soften after realising that his style of authority wasn’t building trust in him and his wider goals, no matter how noble the mission statements might have been.
The same thing happened to Guilliman, they’re in a different world now and need to adapt.
I don't actually think he has changed as much as we think. His nature remains unchanged, the only development is essentially in his communication skills. If we look at the example of Savine in the HH primarch book, a lot of stuff happened because she got the hump that the Lion didn't notice her or give a shit. He *did* though, but he didn't bother communicating that to her. He's different now in terms of understanding that in order to better defend the helpless ones, he has to have a dialogue with them. So I think with the Lion it's genuine personal growth rather than a personality change. **To help the helpless ones Who all look up to you And to defend them To the end**
Hard agree. Also, to paraphase the Primarch novella - he loves his sons but does not really show it and instead drives them hard. 40k Lion shows his love and trust towards them a lot more openly and is in general more forgiving.
The Lion, once again proving that he is the OG Primarch, succeeded at what all of his brothers have failed - character growth. Doubly important for a character that was quite flawed (and still is) from the start. So, yes, he's different. And that's a good thing. He still does what he does best, but he now does it with a clear motivation beyond "it's what daddy ordered me to do". He's basically gone back to his roots, to what he did (and the reasons for it) before the Emperor found him. Saving people, hunting things.
That’s an interesting variation. However, I think that the Lion’s center post Luther finding him has somewhat always been about protection. We know way too little about the Rangda but with both sides of the Third Xenocides pathway the Lion goes out to kill a major threat regardless of orders. Or in the Primarch Novel where he hunts of his own volition. Even Thramas is done to hunt the Eighth and Secundus arguably to hunt Guilliman. It’s just far more… aggressive.
Sure, he always did things to protect the Imperium, but only as a byproduct of being hardwired to hunt down threats, not matter the cost. So much so that collateral damage on the local scale was acceptable to him of it meant removing a galactic level threat. Note his behaviour during Imperium Secundus and the exact circumstances which led to its dissolution (specifically, the methods by which the 1st eventually eliminated the Nightlords threat on Macragge). This absolute, "end-justifies-the-means" approach is used to characterise the Lion over and over, it's what most often leads to conflict with his Allies (along his generally "unsociable" nature) and his refusal to explain himself to anyone exacerbates these issues. No matter his *intention*, the outcome pre-return was always "mission accomplished, consequences be damned". Which fits with the general MO of the 1st Legion, obviously, but more often than not resulted in the death and destruction of those his actions were meant to safeguard, at least on the local scale. The survivors were safe - if there were any. And on other occasions, like Rangda, the Lion is so far removed from those he supposedly protects with his campaigns that it becomes more a matter of "the Emperor says it needs to die, so it dies". Post-return, we're seeing the psychological effect the events on Caliban had on him, especially in regards to the cost of his actions and the scorched earth left behind by his methods. If we look at it from a more meta perspective, the Lions arc in his new book is basically almost the only way to reconcile the character somewhat with the very changed nature of the Imperium in M42. The old Lion would have been way too confrontational as a character to integrate seemlessly into the storyline, and having him wisen up to his mistakes makes him an interesting POV who is much less focused on a grand, practical design like Guilliman and more focused on the problem at hand - Imperium Nihilus, and presumably the Tyranids in the future. That is facilitated by making him lean more towards immediately protecting humans from acute danger rather than "always the nuclear option, all the time". He's won some agency, in a manner of speaking. We're seeing a new attitude, a new old motivation and a changed outlook and reflection on the consequences of his actions, and especially the latter was something we can observe in some of the later heresy novels, but we never see the real conclusion of the development until Son of the Forest.
You make a good point. He is just now having the opportunity to look back at his "ends justify the means" approach for the last few years (relative) and his most recent memories being Thramas, banishment by G-man, the purging of the traitor worlds, and finally Caliban and the breaking. The first person he came back to was Zabriel, who gave the hard truth to him with both barrels fully expecting to be killed for it. Even your most autistic friend finally starts to catch on when presented with enough evidence that they're acting like a dick. Also, unlike his brother, he seems more willing to go back to just doing his own version of "the right thing" than try to operate within the bounds of what's acceptable.
I don't think it's even about willingness, to be honest. They still are creatures of habit, both of them, and Guilliman will always strive to streamline, to organise, to create an efficient process by which to overcome an issue. His approach will always be to create a system. Guilliman bends the system to his purpose, the Lion bypasses it. It makes either of them very good at specific things. I think they'll find some commonality though in their changed outlooks. Whatever vision of the Imperium they may subscribe to, it certainly isn't the reality they find themselves in. Both of their world views have been challenged since their return.
The change is the whole reason I started collecting DA. The secrets bollocks & and arsehole primarch was quite boring to me; the understanding that he handled something poorly and distilling his mission into saving what he can is so excellent.
The Lion's return had me pick up his model and build a full Dark Angels 40k army for 10th. It wasn't because they were strong in the meta but because the lore is so good. I'm not a reader and haven't really spent time reading books outside textbooks for my degree and some required reading but his book, Lion Son of the Forest, was impossible to put down. It was just that good that even a non-reader like me would enjoy it. All my lore knowledge comes from podcasts, videos, rulebooks, and memes. After reading about his return, I was so into the lore that I ordered the omnibus and I'm halfway into Cypher's book just because of the Lion's return. I am slightly disappointed though with the lore updates from the new codex as it doesn't feel like the same character that redeemed the fallen as it was described that the Dark Angels continue to hunt the fallen and the Lion occassionally interrupts the interrogation instead of doing his best to redeem the uncorrupted fallen.
[удалено]
The intrigue, backstabbing, self serving and inefficiency were staples of the 40K imperium. I 100% agree that it reads like some poor fanfic that all of that has at the top been resolved. Bringing back a Prinarch always was going to be a big deal but I think it would have been better handled had Gilliman had to continually use his political and social ingenuity to constantly out pace or short circuit his removal. The Lion as well. Things would be far more interesting if, while the average person sees them as something akin to the second coming, those high up in power either fear or hate them because they could expose them or remove them for incompetence. Even then, in universe, some might contend that the return of the Primarchs is a bad thing because it puts power back into the hands of super humans that they cannot relate or even comprehend. The loss of control would be a more interesting angle to cover, especially for the high lords. The delicate balance that would need to be struck to keep the imperium together is far more interesting than, it just magically working.
Totally with you on regards to how he was written for his return. It just feels wrong and cheap. I feel like if Lion had woken up on the Rock, which is what we were essentially told would happen, things would have been very different and the arc would have been more earned. In relation to the latter part: The thing is the old Lion KNEW he wasn’t a politician or a bureaucrat. Guillimans alive? Great! He can handle that nonsense. I’m going to go kick in some Tyranid teeth. And The Traitors’ for that matter. Also they should have at least some flak. Guilliman DID break the Lion Sword.
I was going to say this. You just said it better than I ever could have. As an individual he’s grown and improved and he’s unquestionably a better person. It’s just happened in a boring way, we haven’t seen him battle to overcome his flaws and we no longer need to wonder when his serious flaws will bite the Dark Angel’s or Imperium in the arse. Hopefully his quest to redeem the Fallen will add some more interest back into his story arc.
New Lion, easily
As others have stated, he has gained character development. So much is different now that he cannot just go around being captain genocide anymore. Also, that bed is entirely too small for him, he will break it.
The lion grew as a character I like that as a Lion fan growth implies change and this change is good it makes him more “human”.
Yapp, he changed of course. But do you really prefer that cocky arsehole that destroyed his homeworld just to make a point? Pre Heresy Dark Angels were like "There's one traitor on this Hive World and I don't have any motivation to ask all the ppl here who could it be." "Sir, may it be the one with the horns..." "Tztztz, I said I don't want to ask around! EXTERMINATUS!" Pre Heresy Lion threw around with Exterminati like other chapters use Drop Pods. He was a lose gun, now he's an old man regretting some live's decisions. This is called character development. Ppl change and it's not wrong that they change, it's a natural process and therefore it's also good that the Lion changed after he had ten thousand years to reevaluate his past steps. And he came to the conclusion that he was a knob-headed, stupid, short tempered asshole that has no right to judge his kin for their mistakes, because he did a lot more of them.
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. While the First did do a LOT of Exterminatus, you also have to know what they were fighting. They were essentially fighting the very worst the galaxy had to offer. The Rangda, Slaugh, the whatever they were called from the Primarch Novel. In relation to Caliban, we KNOW he was shot at first. Astelan and Luther both admitted it. So the Lion treated Caliban is being in a rebellion similar to full traitor Legions, and did what he did to the likes of Chemos and Nuceria.
So, if someone honked at you, you get out of your car and beat them up? That's about how justified the destruction of Caliban was. The Lion is intentionally designed to be an arsehole... like many other Astartes and the biggest jerk of all... their gene-father. Yes, they were fighting bad stuff, but their Exterminatus count was unmatched during the 31st millennium. The pre heresy Lion pretty much was a war criminal, like many Astartes are. The Lion also was infamous for not giving a shit about collateral damages. Dude, he destroyed his home, because someone shot at him. He didn't know if everybody was corrupted or just so scared that they shot before they asked any questions. The Pre-Heresy Lion is the master of overreactions. Also, just imagine you were left back home, while your Primarch goes on a big crusade to aid the Emperor. Communication broke down, you didn't hear anything from your dada in years. They even didn't know if the war was lost or won. They had to assume the worst. And then suddenly a fleet warps into their orbit... the first ships in a very very long time. So they fired a salvo like a "Yo, bro. Stay away!"... meanwhile on the Lion's flagship: "EEEEEEEXTEEEEEEERMINAAAAAAATUUUUUUUUSSSSSS!!!!!!!" Is having a talk really that hard? I'm sure Caliban was still a prospering world, if the Lion just reacted with: "Stop shooting! It's me! Daddy's home, biatches! And I'm still loyal!"... but instead he didn't even hesitate to destroy a whole civilization. It's really hard to believe that the Watchers are okay with that. If my Homeworld was blasted away because of a misunderstanding, I'd hated that guy to the guts. I also would build up a whole culture around hating that guy to hold the grudge till the last days of the universe. But the Lion needs that troubled past to feel ashamed. Because that is the whole shtick about Dark Angels. In the end we are based on a poem of the same name. Dark Angel by Lionel Johnson (no joke) is about the author's shame about his own desires and the fear that others find out. Lionel Johnson was homosexual btw... homosexual in Victorian England. Like Blood Angels' thing is Blood, the Space Wolves being werewolf vikings in space and the Ultramarines' thing is being blue, our thing is to be ashamed of something nobody is allowed to know. Taking that away from us, is almost like saying that Blood Angels overcame the red thirst... what stays is a chapter like any else... just with golden jump marines. By revealing all the secret and getting rid of the shame that made it necessary to keep the secrets in the first place, you also delete the need for the Inner Circle and that would change a lot in our faction. It's initially the only thing that makes us special. The whole Deathwing exists only in its recent form as a somewhat connected force because the don't want to spread the knowledge uncontrollably. So in all consequence that means: No secrets, no special Terminators.
I'l also buck the trend and say I'm not really a fan of new Lion, he's a more rounded, sensible understanding leader, and I hate it, I want my arrogant unreasonable brooder with no social skills back. As others before me have said his character growth feels unearned, he just wakes up with more self reflection and patience than he had before and continues this new arc. I take comfort that the codex didn't really show this side of him, there was more of the unknowable aloof leader there in his dealings with the modern dark angels.
I love it. It isn't how I would have written it, but he is written well enough. And he hasn't quite lost his edge. When he met Dante for the first time he raged and approached him quickly. The BA drew weapons on him and he didn't give a fuck. Or near the beginning of the new novel, they had no weapons to attack a Chaos outpost. "The plan, my Lord?" "ERADICATE THEM" I think he comes off as....less dumb? For me, I always liked the Lion for this intangible sense of power he has. Some mystic ability to win against anything but we don't know how, he isn't like Magnus or the others with some set abilities and powers, he's just kind of like Guts from Berserk, somehow finds a way. I feel like he was written poorly early on sometimes and now we just kind of have to deal with it. Oh, and he can teleport now, which is dope. We're seeing a practical Lion now, and the Fallen story line was always shitty, so he has to deal with it the best way possible, can't have traitors running around after all. While I'm fanboying, there are 2 things I would like to see. 1. Lion effortlessly destroying Asterion Moloch when he tries to tell what he can or can't do at the Palace. I'm talking open handed slap that kills him so fast the Custodes couldn't track it. 2. Black Templars making an off hand comment about how the DA abandoned them and Lion curtly telling them not to worry, he will take care of things too hard for them to handle from now on.
Brothers and sisters. We have walked the spiral path and we have bound ourselves by oath and iron. We remember old Caliban as we remember our duty yet done, the pretenders, the betrayers, the Fallen. Our Shame. We would rejoice to know our primarch again. *If he were among us.* Heed this and consider the forests of old Caliban. Never did they deliver succour or salvation, never did they strengthen our arms, send galant knights or saviours. The forests only ever offered horrors, great beasts and trickery. Why then is this creature delivered to us by the forrest? Why does it embrace our shame, taking Traitors for retinue and Pretenders for honour guard. Why does it eschew our traditions and neglect the Honoured Deathwing? This is not our primarch. This is a changeling of Old Caliban and fear for us that you do not see it.
I don't quite agree with his forgiveness of the Fallen and how little he escalates the Unforgiven's mad search for the Fallen. The problem for me, is that physical ageing doesn't equate mental ageing in the way the book treats it. The Tywin Lannister memes actually rather fit for the type of character he has now suddenly become. He feels a bit much like a politician, which is kind of the opposite he was during Imperium Secundus, the Heresy and Scouring. But I'm also in the Camp of people that kind of ignore or disregard, lore that came after 8th and the 13th Black Crusade and all it's Lore breaking shenanigans. Heresy is still somewhat decent and coherent so I'll happily stay there, though the more recent Campaign books try their best to break lore as well :/
Honestly I’m surprised he hasn’t seemed to really try and remake the Legion or institute the Hexagrammaton.
To me the Lion doesn’t feel the same. It doesn’t feel like a learned lesson, it feels like a simplification. The proud master of the Legion, known amongst his brothers for attacking any threat large enough to truly threaten the Imperium, without a legion. Without the drive he once had. Without the brutality, the finesse of the blade, the determined pace and prowl of a predator. The Lion as I know him should be getting every scrap of information, uniting his Legion as he once did to secure the Imperium. Tracking down his brother to see what can be done, and then sailing into the void to take on the threat. Instead he forges his own empire? What happened to his take on Secundus? His loyalty? His sense of honor? By the throne, when Curze said the Lion would only be remembered as hesitant fists began flying! Now he sits relatively idle? Concealing himself from his true brother and his little brothers? I hate to say it, brothers and sisters. But the Lion may truly be sitting on the sidelines, just like Curze said he’d be remembered. Waiting, hidden, alone, disloyal. Edit: Yeah this is what I get for writing while sleep deprived. I think there’s a better way to summarize my feelings on the matter. The Lion has been made more generic, if that makes sense. Like Primaris when they first released for those that remember that era. Different model, claimed to be the same, but really not. Even shorter: It’s forced, not earned.
So I guess the first point is that he has just come back. His novel starts with him thinking that Imperium is gone, all his brothers are dead, his dad is dead and that he has to make the best of a bad situation. Hitting things and putting under protection the human settlements he finds. The novel then ends with him finding out Guilliman is alive and the Imperium lives. An Imperium he has come to despise as backward, full of religious zealots, Byzantine in its structures and inefficient to its core. It's also really important to remember that he is stuck in a half of the Imperium that is totally cut off from the other half, full of horrors and danger, even more so than the other half. We have no idea how potent his Forest Walk is, how it works, or even if the Lion is the one controlling it. The codex is really a holding document, as they always are. Good on the past, mysterious and vague about the present and future. This is by design so you can imprint what you want onto it. You can decide what he is doing and what his musings mean. To me he is needed way more in Imperium Nihilus as a great protector than he is in Sanctus. The Emperor (if we assume he is the Fisher King and the Rotting King of his visions) is basically telling him the same too. Probably a good thing too, he would not have the tact or the ability of Guilliman as an administrator. He would probably have had half the High Lords put to death straight away and there is no way he would have dealt with them like Guilliman did in Regents Shadow". All in all I disagree, to a point. He wants to rebuild civilization in Nihilus to protect the humans there. However he does not want to rebuild the 40k Imperium and who could blame him, it's pretty awful (not that 30K was much better). For all we know he is actively talking to Guilliman using the Forest Walk ability and those are the whispers in his chamber, he could be talking to Elvis and Jesus Christ if you want to decide that right now. We'll just have to wait and see.
>I hate to say it, brothers and sisters. But the Lion may truly be sitting on the sidelines, just like Curze said he’d be remembered. Waiting, hidden, alone, disloyal. I might have missed the point, but isn't that super cool? The lonesome and mysterious Green Knight from Arthurian Legend that is almost percieved as a spiritual manifestation, a ghost of the past aiding his sons. Becoming something like the Legion of the Damned, an imperial Saint that helps out in the direst of days, while not getting back into the saddle as the leader of the Legion, because that's not what a lonewolf edge lord does.
1. He still has his drive and all the lethality and strength. He just doesn't have the resources he used to and is making do with what he does have. 2. He is doing what he can to protect the people of the Imperium, not building a new empire. He **explicitly** says as much. It is his honor and loyalty driving him to do this. 3. How exactly is he "sitting on the sidelines" when he's actively fighting throughout Imperium Nihilus and aiding Imperial forces where he can? 4. He is not waiting, not hidden, not alone, and definitely not disloyal. He is the opposite of all of those things. Honestly mate it feels like you're deliberately misunderstanding all this stuff to have something to complain about.
I mean fair enough. The disloyal part was definitely pushing it: Courtesy of sleep deprived brain. His return still hits me in all the wrong ways, if that makes sense. Some stuff has remained, but he feels… simplified? I’m not sure what the right word is. He feels more like a generic Primarch (if such a thing exists) than the Lion.
I get what you mean, i think the current lion would be fine, if theyd given it time to develop. It feels too sudden, id have liked to see him butt heads with the contemporary universe more before toning down.
Its a ddifferent and somewhat worse version of his hh self, but having a war crime daddy who cant be reasoned with would be far less appealing in the setting he is in now It was a needed growth that has a good foundation