It's not just road signs, people ignore all kinds of signs and educational materials.
Veteran of the VHS to DVD conversation of early 2000's (and the blu ray and HD releases later). Was poached to work for Blockbuster as they came into Canada also.
Do you have any idea how many people rented blu rays with no Blu-ray player? Despite an intense amount of signs (and staff asking "do you have a blu ray player?).
Can't help some people.
Out of curiosity is there any enforcement or negative consequences to entering the park during this time? Because people are gonna people if there isn’t any enforcement
It is what it is. It would definitely make it more palatable if BC Parks announced maintenance to the park to mitigate environmental impacts and upgrades to other nearby parks and trails that will now see increased visitation.
Still lots to do in the area. Here are a few great underappreciated hikes:
* Cloudburst Grind up to Mt. Mackenzie Lower Paraglider Launch Site (optional: continue to Mt. Mackenzie Upper Launch and cabin)
* Miller Ridge (optional: summit Sugarloaf Mtn)
* Darkside Lake / Beekers Cabin
* Rohr Lake (optional: summit Rohr Mtn)
* Seton Ridge
* Mount Currie
* Cool Creek Canyon
They already completely rebuilt the Joffre Lakes trail to make it more crowd friendly. I’m not sure what more they can do at this point short of paving it - all the previously interesting parts are already sanitized gravel.
I think you’re right in that what is needed is expanding capacity into other places. One (or all) of the five proposed new trailheads into Garibaldi Park for example.
Yes please! Also please get a move on with Widgeon Marsh Regional Park Metro Vancouver! I’ve heard some amazing things about the terrain available back there, but haven’t taken the time to poke around properly yet.
The park was supposed to open in the summer of 2023 but I would estimate that the park won't open until 2027 or 2028.
A few things have caused the delay:
* Covid
* Nov 2021 Atmospheric Storm
* Archeological Work (largest contributor)
Some of the biggest problems BC Parks has is lack of funding & staff and having projects prioritized by politicians. This results in larger capital projects seeing the highest priority while maintenance and capital renewal are neglected.
For a trail like the Joffre Lakes Trail, there is a number of maintenance items that need to occur every year. This includes trail resurfacing and reencountering, trail braid decommissioning & fencing, signage reprinting, culvert cleanouts & ditch material removal, replanting, and more. A well maintained trail lessens environmental impact. For example, people are way less likely to go off trail if the trail is well maintained, distinct, and marked. This is what I meant by maintenance.
I do agree with expanding access.
Darkside a long haul unless a quad or small beat up 4x4 to get 3km from lake. Wouldn’t recommend this one to the average hiker as many signs of Bears in this area and trail is very easy to lose if not paying attention. (Been a few times over the years)
Rohr used to be a hidden gem (did it 10 years ago first time) but was soon posted all over instagram and other sites and now ruined.
Seton and Currie a couple more for more experienced folks definitely.
I know plenty more in this area that are hidden gems and so far have rarely been posted if not at all. We keep those ones close to us. 😉
It is usually bad form to post lesser known cabin locations on the internet while there are other more well known ones in the area. I tend to rule with if it is on google maps it is good to go.
I understand the sentiment but my person philosophy is different.
Using Google Maps to determine if it's good to go isn't a very reliable way to determine what is good to go. Google shows what users have submitted to them and has managed to get through their automated systems. Even if something is approved by Google, it's very easy for a small group of individuals to abuse the report functionality to have something automatically removed. Google doesn't even show all of the official government emergency shelters/cabins in that zone.
A better method is to check the Strava or TrailForks Heatmap and see how often the cabin is visited. In the case of both of the cabins I mentioned, both show significant heat on the heatmaps.
Most of the masses who look for a place to party showing up at a shelter without a backup tent dont look on strava or other mapping programs but google places and posts like this show up. There is a difference between posting a name and location vs using a heat map that other enthusiasts use.
Any cabin that does not have an organization maintaining it runs the risk of the Ministry of Forest BC showing up and destroying the cabin. I had a chat with builders of Blowdown and that is exactly what happened to them, they had a letter posted to the door saying if no one came forth and took responsibility for it they would destroy it, it took one of the local snowmobile clubs to take over maintenance of it to save it.
The only downside to this is that the same traffic will now be condensed in less time. Late June and Sep are still high-traffic times for Joffre, although obviously not as crazy as July-Aug.
Here's hoping one day they will start charging out-of-province visitors to help put in more infrastructure and maintain the trail.
That's not true. Please read the details. BC Parks was issuing 1000 day passes per day to restrict crowding. The new agreement with the FN reduces this to 500 day passes per day. In other words many people won't be able to visit this park anymore.
It would be great if they would elaborate on what sort of ceremonies and cultural practices they are doing so I can at least educate myself on their cultural practices.
There was a video that got removed a few years back on South Coast touring if a community member speaking (for himself, not the nation) with frustration about the land being used for recreational purposes. He felt people should contribute more, though struggled to articulate how when the interviewer asked. He mostly said support.
To be clear the rest of this is hearsay. My sources are non indigenous people living in Mt Currie and a couple band members I’ve spoken too casually.
Joffree itself is not necessarily significant, but there are spots scattered around in Crown Land that are used by recreationalists. I’ve come across one accidentally. There is a perception of outsiders coming causing harm then leaving. Joffree is legally much simpler to make a case for, and is within the traditional territory. I know one source that does say the lake has ceremonial significance.
Some in the nation feel that wealthy urbanites that use their lands should be giving back to the nation. Others feel it’s a chance to move the sovereignty marker. This perspective seems more common. There is also a big problem of people driving through and killing dogs or livestock. It gets blamed on tourists.
I personally wish the gas station in Currie had more of a cafe, or stopping point. I try and spend money there where possible, but it would be good to investment into making the recreational resources valuable to the community.
This is quite a common growing trend that is not specific to any one group or region. The easiest way to describe it is that the tourism philosophy used to be about maximizing number of tourists whereas now it's about minimizing the number of tourists while maximizing economic profit. This often means things that were traditionally free like parking and hiking are impacted the most.
A great idea for steward ship could be allowing the band to charge for parking in the lots on their traditional land. Have a nation member present to educate the public on the importance of the area to them while also preventing break ins into vehicles (it's been an absolutely massive issue this year with 30+ vehicles being smashed into in the past few weeks at trail heads through the sea to sky).
However, I fundamentally I will always disagree with gatekeeping nature and preventing free and unhindered access to areas like provincial parks. Weather by bands or for profit companies. Unfortunately, with both, it often comes down to money.
Charging for entry to provincial parks is an Ontario thing and traditionally not something we do in BC. I agree with you, I’d rather not have entry fees here if at all possible.
For sure but I'd pay 20 bucks for an "indigenous park watch" at the Garibaldi trail heads sort of like what they do at Skaha in Penticton, if it means all my windows are intact when I get back
This has nothing to do with ceremonies, it's about asserting their dominance. BC First Nations are faking it till they make it.
This is a provincial park, it's not on a First Nations reserve. Provincial Parks belong to all people of BC, not minority ethnic groups. The First Nations are using this to gain political power, nothing else.
I'm extremely informed. I know all about UNDRIP, DRIPA and claims to unceded territory in BC. is there something specific that is relevant to a First Nation throwing their weight around in attempts to gain control over public land?
You say the park is “not on reserve”, implying they don’t have any jurisdiction, when by virtue of their constitutionally protected Aboriginal title they absolutely do.
The problem by not mentioning Aboriginal title is you’re ignoring the main impetus for the closures, which is entirely about rights recognition, establishing themselves on the land, and moving away from the Indian Act.
These bands have not gone through the legal process of determining title of their claimed "traditional territory". There is a legal framework to determine title that extends beyond reserve lands. There is a framework set out in the Haida cases for what is required.
Lilwat and N'Quatqua have not done that. Right now they are faking it till they make it. If everyone plays along then they will assert dominance but they have no legal jurisdiction to these lands whatsoever.
The burden is on the crown to prove their title. It’s unceded around their historic claims until the crown (treat commission) can prove otherwise and shrink it as much as possible.
Aboriginal title exists whether or not it's been proven in court. Canada, BC and First Nations know where the law stands, and agree that arguing about Aboriginal title at the SCC is not efficient. This is why recognition of title is being done at the negotiation table. See Haida Gwaii as a recent example. Prepare yourself to see more examples of title and rights recognition through agreement and return of jurisdiction and decision-making to FNs across BC. These closures are just another example.
From a quick google search you could have easily done: "Aboriginal title refers to the inherent Aboriginal right to land or a territory. The Canadian legal system recognizes Aboriginal title as a sui generis, or unique collective right to the use of and jurisdiction over a group’s ancestral territories. This right is not granted from an external source but is a result of Aboriginal peoples’ own occupation of and relationship with their home territories as well as their ongoing social structures and political and legal systems."
From last Sept closure.
The two First Nations say the closure of Joffre Lakes Provincial Park, known as Pipi7iyekw, will allow for a harvest celebration on their shared and overlapping traditional territories.
The park will re-open on National Truth and Reconciliation Day on Sept. 30, according to the nations.
"(We) are asserting our Title and Rights to our shared unceded territory to take this time to harvest and gather our resources within our territories," said a statement signed by chiefs Kukwpi Skalúlmecw Dean Nelson and Kukwpi Micah Thevarge.
This is absolutely the case. That said, if they feel people are roaming through their lands and it's getting busier and busier, while they're seeing little to no benefit, I get feeling a bit miffed.
I'd prefer an honest press release. Something like:
>we're asserting our sovereignty. It will be off limits because we want to remind people that this land belongs to us, and that we allow it to be used for recreation for almost the entirety of the year, free of charge.
Tbf what benefits do they "deserve" to see from me going for a freaking walk. If they wanted to see the benefit of the traffic they would commercialize the area through mount curry.
Blocking public access to a recreational area developed by our tax dollars is pretty bs when there's thousands of km of undeveloped land in their traditional territories that are not specifically earmarked and developed for public recreation and conservation.
They could just straight up shut down the road through Pemberton Valley, too, I suppose. It seems like this is about making a political statement about their sovereignty, and Joffree's popularity makes it a good option.
It is their land and it wasn’t like they did this unilaterally. It’s a provincial partnership program, largely based on the first nations cleaning up the trails. If anything, we should thank them.
Do you have a source? According to parks BC it is a public partnership. It’s also clearly stated on the Lilwat website. Sounds like you’re stating opinions as if they’re facts.
I guess I should rephrase that, the original closure was done as a protest. The current closures are part of cooperation between the BCNDP and the First Nations. That is true. The fact that the BCNDP have gone along with this does not give it any more credibility. They have been giving in to First Nations pressure all over the province.
The claims of ceremonies, harvests, etc are total bullshit. The only reason they are closing the park is to asset control over it, period.
In another recent co-op, the BCNDP used $4.5 million of taxpayer money to gift a cattle ranch to a First Nation near Clintion: [https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2022IRR0067-001916](https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2022IRR0067-001916)
There are many, many of these acts of "reconciliation" taking place at the expense of the people of BC. This is death by a thousand cuts. Little by little the province is being handed over to a minority ethnic group.
How is this “giving in” to anyone? Sounds like an excellent program of cooperation and reconciliation. Definitely not a protest in any way. Do you realize the first nations are also “the people of bc”?
And also because ignoramuses were harassing them while they carried out their traditional harvest so now they just say forget it, you can't share respectfully, so you are out while we do our thing.
Yeah just just leaves the same taste in my mouth as the lions bay mayor shutting down public parking at trail heads due to "fire risk" why not assert the title rights on any of the millions of acres of forestry tenure or crown land instead of the publicly accessible park land.
Curious on what they're harvesting when everything's under several feet of snow...
Whatever at least we have notice this time and they are not fucking over camping permit holders like last year.
Yep, if they are hunting I just don't understand why it has to be in a provincial park that's there for conservation and recreation. Just seems like a flex on the gov and the rest of the residents of the country. Fair enough I suppose given what they've had to deal, I'd want to assert my atonamy as well if I was in there shoes but I feel there's ways that could get the general publics support (ie. Telling old growth loggers to kick dirt)
I'd be far far more sympathetic if there's a traditional ceremony they perform at these times and would actually want to learn more about it and the history of the lands I enjoy recreating in. They just need to communicate that!
Probably because it's an easy trail, making it a very accessible alpine area in their territory and it hasn't been ravaged by logging, unlike much of the Sea-to-Sky, so native species for gathering will be much more abundant than in disturbed sites and planted second growth forests.
I was never a man to hate bushwacking, anyway. At least they didn't close it the whole summer because then everyone would just disregard the rules.. Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of the indigenous. Given the "white man" history, I understand why it isn't really fair for the public to complain about closing a park that technically should belong to them anyway. Though on the flip side, my opinion is that literally nobody owns the mountains. Not grouse mountain, not seymour, nobody. Nature does, if anything. If people want to gatekeep from me, it won't work, lol. Just like the foresters who I've seen litter their cutblocks with garbage and forest fires waiting to happen from the driest tinder I've ever seen. Then, they continue to close a gate, even on weekends. I say angle grinder to that personally.
The lack of clear definition on unceded land and the associated rights is something that’s confused me since I was child. We can’t just continue to exist in this middle ground. If 95% of BC is truly unceded and the FN tried to enforce we would see a literal civil war. So what is the point of giving it lip service and playing these games. Fucking dumb
I mean last year they had the construction-style road sign entering pemberton saying it was closed, and people still showed up. People gonna people.
It’s nature. If you shut down a park half of the summer of course some people are going to fuck it and go anyway.
lol so true.
Which also speaks more generally to peoples’ inability to read or at least comprehend/respect road signage 🙄
It's not just road signs, people ignore all kinds of signs and educational materials. Veteran of the VHS to DVD conversation of early 2000's (and the blu ray and HD releases later). Was poached to work for Blockbuster as they came into Canada also. Do you have any idea how many people rented blu rays with no Blu-ray player? Despite an intense amount of signs (and staff asking "do you have a blu ray player?). Can't help some people.
Out of curiosity is there any enforcement or negative consequences to entering the park during this time? Because people are gonna people if there isn’t any enforcement
I do think there was some form of enforcement last time and I believe people still explicitly tried to sneak in
It is what it is. It would definitely make it more palatable if BC Parks announced maintenance to the park to mitigate environmental impacts and upgrades to other nearby parks and trails that will now see increased visitation. Still lots to do in the area. Here are a few great underappreciated hikes: * Cloudburst Grind up to Mt. Mackenzie Lower Paraglider Launch Site (optional: continue to Mt. Mackenzie Upper Launch and cabin) * Miller Ridge (optional: summit Sugarloaf Mtn) * Darkside Lake / Beekers Cabin * Rohr Lake (optional: summit Rohr Mtn) * Seton Ridge * Mount Currie * Cool Creek Canyon
They already completely rebuilt the Joffre Lakes trail to make it more crowd friendly. I’m not sure what more they can do at this point short of paving it - all the previously interesting parts are already sanitized gravel. I think you’re right in that what is needed is expanding capacity into other places. One (or all) of the five proposed new trailheads into Garibaldi Park for example.
> One (or all) of the five proposed new trailheads into Garibaldi Park for example. Desperately needed! Along with trails in Pinecone Burke!
Yes please! Also please get a move on with Widgeon Marsh Regional Park Metro Vancouver! I’ve heard some amazing things about the terrain available back there, but haven’t taken the time to poke around properly yet.
They really have been dragging their feet on that new park, haven't heard any news since 2021.
The park was supposed to open in the summer of 2023 but I would estimate that the park won't open until 2027 or 2028. A few things have caused the delay: * Covid * Nov 2021 Atmospheric Storm * Archeological Work (largest contributor)
Thanks for the info!
Some of the biggest problems BC Parks has is lack of funding & staff and having projects prioritized by politicians. This results in larger capital projects seeing the highest priority while maintenance and capital renewal are neglected. For a trail like the Joffre Lakes Trail, there is a number of maintenance items that need to occur every year. This includes trail resurfacing and reencountering, trail braid decommissioning & fencing, signage reprinting, culvert cleanouts & ditch material removal, replanting, and more. A well maintained trail lessens environmental impact. For example, people are way less likely to go off trail if the trail is well maintained, distinct, and marked. This is what I meant by maintenance. I do agree with expanding access.
Darkside a long haul unless a quad or small beat up 4x4 to get 3km from lake. Wouldn’t recommend this one to the average hiker as many signs of Bears in this area and trail is very easy to lose if not paying attention. (Been a few times over the years) Rohr used to be a hidden gem (did it 10 years ago first time) but was soon posted all over instagram and other sites and now ruined. Seton and Currie a couple more for more experienced folks definitely. I know plenty more in this area that are hidden gems and so far have rarely been posted if not at all. We keep those ones close to us. 😉
Yeah I was thinking the same thing haha I’m not sure I’d recommend hikes like mount Currie to the type of person who frequents Joffre lakes lol
I mean you could make it up there in your metrotown finest carrying a large box of Korean fried chicken and no water just like Joffre right?
It is usually bad form to post lesser known cabin locations on the internet while there are other more well known ones in the area. I tend to rule with if it is on google maps it is good to go.
I understand the sentiment but my person philosophy is different. Using Google Maps to determine if it's good to go isn't a very reliable way to determine what is good to go. Google shows what users have submitted to them and has managed to get through their automated systems. Even if something is approved by Google, it's very easy for a small group of individuals to abuse the report functionality to have something automatically removed. Google doesn't even show all of the official government emergency shelters/cabins in that zone. A better method is to check the Strava or TrailForks Heatmap and see how often the cabin is visited. In the case of both of the cabins I mentioned, both show significant heat on the heatmaps.
Most of the masses who look for a place to party showing up at a shelter without a backup tent dont look on strava or other mapping programs but google places and posts like this show up. There is a difference between posting a name and location vs using a heat map that other enthusiasts use. Any cabin that does not have an organization maintaining it runs the risk of the Ministry of Forest BC showing up and destroying the cabin. I had a chat with builders of Blowdown and that is exactly what happened to them, they had a letter posted to the door saying if no one came forth and took responsibility for it they would destroy it, it took one of the local snowmobile clubs to take over maintenance of it to save it.
Great list. Thanks
The only downside to this is that the same traffic will now be condensed in less time. Late June and Sep are still high-traffic times for Joffre, although obviously not as crazy as July-Aug. Here's hoping one day they will start charging out-of-province visitors to help put in more infrastructure and maintain the trail.
That's not true. Please read the details. BC Parks was issuing 1000 day passes per day to restrict crowding. The new agreement with the FN reduces this to 500 day passes per day. In other words many people won't be able to visit this park anymore.
Very good points.
It would be great if they would elaborate on what sort of ceremonies and cultural practices they are doing so I can at least educate myself on their cultural practices.
There was a video that got removed a few years back on South Coast touring if a community member speaking (for himself, not the nation) with frustration about the land being used for recreational purposes. He felt people should contribute more, though struggled to articulate how when the interviewer asked. He mostly said support. To be clear the rest of this is hearsay. My sources are non indigenous people living in Mt Currie and a couple band members I’ve spoken too casually. Joffree itself is not necessarily significant, but there are spots scattered around in Crown Land that are used by recreationalists. I’ve come across one accidentally. There is a perception of outsiders coming causing harm then leaving. Joffree is legally much simpler to make a case for, and is within the traditional territory. I know one source that does say the lake has ceremonial significance. Some in the nation feel that wealthy urbanites that use their lands should be giving back to the nation. Others feel it’s a chance to move the sovereignty marker. This perspective seems more common. There is also a big problem of people driving through and killing dogs or livestock. It gets blamed on tourists. I personally wish the gas station in Currie had more of a cafe, or stopping point. I try and spend money there where possible, but it would be good to investment into making the recreational resources valuable to the community.
This is quite a common growing trend that is not specific to any one group or region. The easiest way to describe it is that the tourism philosophy used to be about maximizing number of tourists whereas now it's about minimizing the number of tourists while maximizing economic profit. This often means things that were traditionally free like parking and hiking are impacted the most.
A great idea for steward ship could be allowing the band to charge for parking in the lots on their traditional land. Have a nation member present to educate the public on the importance of the area to them while also preventing break ins into vehicles (it's been an absolutely massive issue this year with 30+ vehicles being smashed into in the past few weeks at trail heads through the sea to sky). However, I fundamentally I will always disagree with gatekeeping nature and preventing free and unhindered access to areas like provincial parks. Weather by bands or for profit companies. Unfortunately, with both, it often comes down to money.
Charging for entry to provincial parks is an Ontario thing and traditionally not something we do in BC. I agree with you, I’d rather not have entry fees here if at all possible.
For sure but I'd pay 20 bucks for an "indigenous park watch" at the Garibaldi trail heads sort of like what they do at Skaha in Penticton, if it means all my windows are intact when I get back
This has nothing to do with ceremonies, it's about asserting their dominance. BC First Nations are faking it till they make it. This is a provincial park, it's not on a First Nations reserve. Provincial Parks belong to all people of BC, not minority ethnic groups. The First Nations are using this to gain political power, nothing else.
I'm just trying to be delicate but yeah pretty much
Please do at least a little bit of research on Aboriginal title and come back when you’re more informed.
I'm extremely informed. I know all about UNDRIP, DRIPA and claims to unceded territory in BC. is there something specific that is relevant to a First Nation throwing their weight around in attempts to gain control over public land?
You say the park is “not on reserve”, implying they don’t have any jurisdiction, when by virtue of their constitutionally protected Aboriginal title they absolutely do. The problem by not mentioning Aboriginal title is you’re ignoring the main impetus for the closures, which is entirely about rights recognition, establishing themselves on the land, and moving away from the Indian Act.
These bands have not gone through the legal process of determining title of their claimed "traditional territory". There is a legal framework to determine title that extends beyond reserve lands. There is a framework set out in the Haida cases for what is required. Lilwat and N'Quatqua have not done that. Right now they are faking it till they make it. If everyone plays along then they will assert dominance but they have no legal jurisdiction to these lands whatsoever.
You scared him away with facts
No, I just have better things to do than argue with people who don't know what they're talking about on Reddit.
The burden is on the crown to prove their title. It’s unceded around their historic claims until the crown (treat commission) can prove otherwise and shrink it as much as possible.
Aboriginal title exists whether or not it's been proven in court. Canada, BC and First Nations know where the law stands, and agree that arguing about Aboriginal title at the SCC is not efficient. This is why recognition of title is being done at the negotiation table. See Haida Gwaii as a recent example. Prepare yourself to see more examples of title and rights recognition through agreement and return of jurisdiction and decision-making to FNs across BC. These closures are just another example.
Care to elaborate with a definition for this ‘Aboriginal title’ you cite?
From a quick google search you could have easily done: "Aboriginal title refers to the inherent Aboriginal right to land or a territory. The Canadian legal system recognizes Aboriginal title as a sui generis, or unique collective right to the use of and jurisdiction over a group’s ancestral territories. This right is not granted from an external source but is a result of Aboriginal peoples’ own occupation of and relationship with their home territories as well as their ongoing social structures and political and legal systems."
From last Sept closure. The two First Nations say the closure of Joffre Lakes Provincial Park, known as Pipi7iyekw, will allow for a harvest celebration on their shared and overlapping traditional territories. The park will re-open on National Truth and Reconciliation Day on Sept. 30, according to the nations. "(We) are asserting our Title and Rights to our shared unceded territory to take this time to harvest and gather our resources within our territories," said a statement signed by chiefs Kukwpi Skalúlmecw Dean Nelson and Kukwpi Micah Thevarge.
There was no "harvest" this is 100% about political dominance.
This is absolutely the case. That said, if they feel people are roaming through their lands and it's getting busier and busier, while they're seeing little to no benefit, I get feeling a bit miffed. I'd prefer an honest press release. Something like: >we're asserting our sovereignty. It will be off limits because we want to remind people that this land belongs to us, and that we allow it to be used for recreation for almost the entirety of the year, free of charge.
Tbf what benefits do they "deserve" to see from me going for a freaking walk. If they wanted to see the benefit of the traffic they would commercialize the area through mount curry. Blocking public access to a recreational area developed by our tax dollars is pretty bs when there's thousands of km of undeveloped land in their traditional territories that are not specifically earmarked and developed for public recreation and conservation.
They could just straight up shut down the road through Pemberton Valley, too, I suppose. It seems like this is about making a political statement about their sovereignty, and Joffree's popularity makes it a good option.
There is absolutely 0 chance of that the government allows that to happen, especially after the aftermath of the atmospheric River a few years ago.
Exactly, they are asserting sovereignty over land that doesn't belong to them. They are hoping that people will play along.
It is their land and it wasn’t like they did this unilaterally. It’s a provincial partnership program, largely based on the first nations cleaning up the trails. If anything, we should thank them.
That's not true, this was done as an act of protest. There is no trail clean up program.
Do you have a source? According to parks BC it is a public partnership. It’s also clearly stated on the Lilwat website. Sounds like you’re stating opinions as if they’re facts.
I guess I should rephrase that, the original closure was done as a protest. The current closures are part of cooperation between the BCNDP and the First Nations. That is true. The fact that the BCNDP have gone along with this does not give it any more credibility. They have been giving in to First Nations pressure all over the province. The claims of ceremonies, harvests, etc are total bullshit. The only reason they are closing the park is to asset control over it, period. In another recent co-op, the BCNDP used $4.5 million of taxpayer money to gift a cattle ranch to a First Nation near Clintion: [https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2022IRR0067-001916](https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2022IRR0067-001916) There are many, many of these acts of "reconciliation" taking place at the expense of the people of BC. This is death by a thousand cuts. Little by little the province is being handed over to a minority ethnic group.
How is this “giving in” to anyone? Sounds like an excellent program of cooperation and reconciliation. Definitely not a protest in any way. Do you realize the first nations are also “the people of bc”?
And also because ignoramuses were harassing them while they carried out their traditional harvest so now they just say forget it, you can't share respectfully, so you are out while we do our thing.
The land does belong to them, though.
Yeah just just leaves the same taste in my mouth as the lions bay mayor shutting down public parking at trail heads due to "fire risk" why not assert the title rights on any of the millions of acres of forestry tenure or crown land instead of the publicly accessible park land. Curious on what they're harvesting when everything's under several feet of snow... Whatever at least we have notice this time and they are not fucking over camping permit holders like last year.
Great point as snow generally on the trail until early/mid June or early July depending on the year.
Yep, if they are hunting I just don't understand why it has to be in a provincial park that's there for conservation and recreation. Just seems like a flex on the gov and the rest of the residents of the country. Fair enough I suppose given what they've had to deal, I'd want to assert my atonamy as well if I was in there shoes but I feel there's ways that could get the general publics support (ie. Telling old growth loggers to kick dirt) I'd be far far more sympathetic if there's a traditional ceremony they perform at these times and would actually want to learn more about it and the history of the lands I enjoy recreating in. They just need to communicate that!
I doubt hunting as lucky to see a squirrel on that trail let alone a Deer or Bear. Sounds like harvesting of the flora, Funga, berries, etc.
Probably because it's an easy trail, making it a very accessible alpine area in their territory and it hasn't been ravaged by logging, unlike much of the Sea-to-Sky, so native species for gathering will be much more abundant than in disturbed sites and planted second growth forests.
Mushroom seasons 🍄 some of the psychedelic varieties.
Doubtful in the high alpine unless they grow on top of snow
Good luck gatekeeping nature
I was never a man to hate bushwacking, anyway. At least they didn't close it the whole summer because then everyone would just disregard the rules.. Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of the indigenous. Given the "white man" history, I understand why it isn't really fair for the public to complain about closing a park that technically should belong to them anyway. Though on the flip side, my opinion is that literally nobody owns the mountains. Not grouse mountain, not seymour, nobody. Nature does, if anything. If people want to gatekeep from me, it won't work, lol. Just like the foresters who I've seen litter their cutblocks with garbage and forest fires waiting to happen from the driest tinder I've ever seen. Then, they continue to close a gate, even on weekends. I say angle grinder to that personally.
Is there any sort of enforcement mechanism? Were people being ticketed or anything last year?
The lack of clear definition on unceded land and the associated rights is something that’s confused me since I was child. We can’t just continue to exist in this middle ground. If 95% of BC is truly unceded and the FN tried to enforce we would see a literal civil war. So what is the point of giving it lip service and playing these games. Fucking dumb
I don’t think that turned out too well the last time they did that 😂
I mean it worked pretty well last year enforcing sovereignty by limiting access for citizens to a provincial park
Lame
At least the closures are announced. Gives the area a break.
Good move.