People only care about their close family and friends. Outside of that group, no one really bothers. You don't kill your neighbour because you care about them, you don't because you think it's morally wrong. No one really loses their sleep over the murder of someone they don't know. That's why slavery was rampant for so long.
Taking that into account, what does an animal in some random farm mean to the average person? Nothing. That's why veganism comes easier to people who bond with animals.
>You don't kill your neighbour because you care about them, you don't because you think it's morally wrong
Some of the people I’ve proselytized about veganism to have agreed that animal agriculture is morally wrong but still partake in it, so I almost think that’s giving people too much credit. Really I think it’s because there are consequences for killing your neighbor such that not killing your neighbor is actually in your best interest. If killing your neighbor was legal and could benefit a person in some way, some people would do it even if they did think it was immoral. It being illegal is a sort of contract where we forfeit our right to murder our neighbor and gain the comfort of knowing that our neighbors are also prohibited from murdering us. Since animals mostly lack the ability to kill us anyway, there’s nothing to gain from having such a contract with them, hence killing animals is legal and free of consequence
That also plays a part, but if it were the whole story, you could get away with hosting dog fights for example. There's nothing to gain from such a contract either.
I only went vegan about six months ago and spent a lot of time thinking about why I hadn't done it earlier (I wasn't even vegetarian). I think the thing is because it's so normalised to eat meat, you grow up eating meat because it's easier. At some point, you start to understand what's involved and it's terrible, but eating animal products is so normal, so it can't be bad right? So you spend years suppressing that knowledge and coming up with justifications. And after years of practice, these views become very rigid and hard to change. Especially because deep down, people know what's involved, they feel attacked when people confront them on it, since they feel a certain guilt. And what do people do when they feel attacked? They get more defensive and stick to their opinion even more. After all, it's easier to see the others as the "extreme, radical vegans" than to question one's own views.
Another factor is that becoming vegan isn't easy. It isn't hard, but you need to research how to do it in a healthy manner. You need to figure out where to get certain nutrients and which ones you need to supplement (funnily enough, people seem to think that you automatically get all of these nutrients if you eat animal products). That can seem intimidating.
A final factor I'd like to mention is the fact that people want a perfect solution. People are quick to name the dietary problems and climate issues with veganism (some of which are legitimate, some of which are incorrect). It's true, veganism isn't perfect. But what they fail to acknowledge is that it's still better than other options and hence becoming vegan would definitely be an improvement.
In summary, people don't care about animals because that's the only way they can continue to eat animal products without feeling guilty and avoid the discomfort of questioning their own views and changing their lifestyle.
Exactly. And I’m going to share a link to a very cool Video vegans can share when we are being attacked for our beliefs in compassion for animals. [https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI](https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI)
I understand where you're coming from, but you cannot simply change people's hearts about an issue by being passionate about it yourself. Just because it has meaning to you does not mean that it is meaningful to them. Presenting information alone rarely works to have a person open up and reflect on their values. If the goal is to change a person's behaviours, you need to make it align with THEIR values, not yours.
I have had this conversation with people in my class. They get naturally curious why I am vegan and choose plant based foods. Most of the time, people are brain-washed into accepting industrialised animal agriculture.
Think about children's books and shows. They learn about farm animals first. The farm animals that are always so happy to be of service. The farmer provides them with love, care, and a good life. So the farmer's reward is to kill and eat the animal. Nothing abusive or terrible is painted in these pictures.
And then when you get to an age to question your values (e.g. 7 yrs), you are peer pressured into accepting the "Common is moral" fallacy. Everyone does it, so there is no harm in you doing it too. And if you don't accept it, then you must be judging them and are ostracised as an outsider for attacking their psyche by simply practicing the alternative.
So people generally aren't aware of the slaughter of a month old calf for veal or waste to make space for humans to consume the milk the little calf would have. Dairy cows could live up to 10 - 12 years, but the stress of repeated pregnancies have them slaughtered after 4-5 years when milk production declines. During which they are expected to have a calf every 12 months.
Now this is background knowledge for us, but would this help saying to someone eating ice cream "hey, you're a baby killer."? Like, how can they possibly save face in that situation? If a person cannot save face, they will simply shut you out. It diminishes any influence or opportunity to help people reflect on their true values.
I wait for people to question why I am vegan, rather than question why they are not vegan. And then I simply lay out how I came to my own conclusions.
"I love milk too much, I could never give it up. Why would you give it up?"
"I like plant-based milks and I feel awful for the baby cow's who are taken away from their mother's to produce that milk. I am happy with my plant-based milks."
"What do you mean the baby cow's are taken away?"
"Cow's need to give birth to produce milk, like humans and other mammals."
"What, I thought they made it out of grass!" (This is so common).
"Sadly no."
"What happens to the babies?"
"Veal."
"Oh."
"Yeah."
And then you just leave it like that. Let the wheels turn in their own head. Give them space to process their inner dialogue. Let people come to their own conclusions about what they are comfortable with. They have to own that knowledge and that decision in order to create intrinsic motivation. Otherwise, the motivation will be external and immediately fall away as soon as the source does.
You can activate a person's motivation to align their behaviours with their values, but you cannot change their fundamental values. If they lack empathy and any sort of regard for cherishing and respecting life, you are draining your energy that could be used to support someone else who is genuinely interested and open to considering new perspectives.
Do not info dump or force your values onto someone else. It's highly unlikely to be effective, and will leave you drained, angry, and depressed. Find out what is meaningful to other people first, then gently provide reflective discussions in how veganism meaningful aligns with their true values. But to be influential, you first have to genuinely connect with the person before they will be open to your views.
This is the answer right here! Give people the straightforward information after THEY ask and then hope it makes an impact somehow. You don't have to hang any pathos on it at all because the facts are already that horrific and grim. Let them go home and google it to clear their conscience; we all know what they're going to find. It has to come from within or it won't stick. If the end result of the conversation is that the person I spoke with consumes less meat or dairy in their daily lives, that's a win imo.
> I've heard many ignorant stupid people make comments such as "well these animals were bred for food."
I can't even figure out what the argument is supposed to be. Yes, it is correct that (some) humans have decided to breed animals for food, just like some humans have decided to sell other humans as sex slaves. But what is the argument that makes it right? If someone has a purpose for X, then X is right? ”Well these humans are kept for sex slavery, so it must be right lmao”.
people generally have quite bad reasoning capabilities. Or their ability to reason is conditioned too much by unconscious things and feelings. People dont know why they believe certain things apart from just it being what they have always done and everyone around them has always done.
It was actually the exact response I had before going vegan, I guess it's just cognitive dissonance. I used to think that, if it weren't for us they wouldn't exist at all. They live their life and at the end they are of some use for us. Somehow I just never thought about it from the perspective of the animal itself. Now i know not existing at all is actually a far kinder option.
I agree with you and once justified eating animals as ‘well, at least they got a shot at life!’ Yeah, easy to say when I’m not locked in a cage and force fed until my legs break under my weight
I was thinking about this earlier and I think I can understand the argument if you put the emphasis on the "bred" part. OP said every dairy cow "has to die". This is true in a trivial manner because every dairy cow has to be bred into existence, so of course they have to die eventually, and it just so happens farmers don't have the resources to keep them alive 'til their natural life span so they have to die *prematurely.*
Imagine if the death were natural. A segment of the human population discovers that their unborn children have a kind of heart disease that will kill them in their sleep after a couple of years. People decide to have these children and a medical organization decides to call this heart disease an epidemic that is killing these children. They say children are dying just because people want to have kids, and their proposed solution, absent any other cure, is for people to not have these children at all. That way there's no "epidemic".
Framed this way, it makes sense why so many people take the stance of welfarism and humane slaughter. It's not bad that they live and inevitably die, and food is the only reason this population would exist. The appeal to nature argument also makes sense since my hypothetical is so much more benign when its an incurable disease than when parents are having children so that they can be harvested. I can also see the "circle of life" argument, and why the language of meat being murder/a holocaust falls flat when vegans are essentially talking about death who's only solution is to prevent the births that lead to them.
I think a better frame would be to talk about bringing a life into this world only for the purpose of exploiting it.
i hope you realize what you look like when you tell someone they should stop eating ice cream.
nobody will learn anything, and they will only end up resenting you or thinking you are cringe. that is not the way to do it.
don't start with sweets and treats, start with meat, it's easier to give up. the connection that something died, so we get meat, is so much stronger.
ice cream is a treat, and most people will not take it well, and the suffering connection is nowhere near the same.
I would not recommend this advice. [Faunalytics suggests not to try this when people are eating at all](https://faunalytics.org/how-to-become-a-more-effective-vegan-advocate/), as they're hungry and already committed to the meal that you are trying to make them question. You prime them so hard for a defensive response with this approach.
Yes, we all know cognitive dissonance is a thing, but somehow we act like it is not. Telling someone about cow murder while they are eating ice cream is about as effective as giving someone criticism when they are feeling low. Timing, tact, benefit of the doubt and theory of mind. Please practice them and you'll be ten time more effective.
true. People use ice cream and treats in general as a reward. these are big dopamine hits, and getting between that high is like getting between a drug addict and his drug. they will fight you tooth and nail over it. it's not enough that this happens for meat aswell, we don't need to make a hard fight even harder.
my non vegan family now has land in a rural area, and now my parents want to live there, they bought a few backyard chickens. so i just took one chicken and started petting it and brought it to them to look at one close.
i could see the wheels turning in their heads, and dad was like, "Am i going to have to kill this?" they know i wouldn't eat that, and they don't really need to either.
i know they will get attached to the chickens because they are loving people, they love their dogs as family members. this is the slow and painful process, but at least they are receptive this way.
> it's easier to give up. the connection that something died, so we get meat, is so much stronger
NO. don't overthink. people simply don't care
hot pot is very popular in asia and gaining popularity in the west. people put LIVING creatures such as prawns or scallops into boiling soup. you can feel the animal's last struggle just after you boil it alive
people enjoy doing that
I'll be the jerk that asks if a masters in animal rights exists. I'm really trying to conceptualize what that degree would be in the real world and how a real college would offer it.
Is this in addition to a law degree? Lawyers do sometimes go on to do a Master's in a specialty area like environmental law, tax law, or something specific like that. But you don't have to be a lawyer to do these programs.
I saw plenty of masters programs in animal welfare. A few for training animals. Plenty of agriculture law stuff. Just trying to figure out what and where you get a masters in animal rights.
Re ice cream, just take them to a cool spot with veg options maybe, like [Van Leeuwens in Williamsburg Brooklyn ](https://maps.app.goo.gl/vmW5rdj2nSPVAJtdA) for example.
This way, it's like a subtle suggestion, a plant-based treat, rather than a preachy self-righteous attitude which will surely just breed resentment.
My friend lives on a beef cattle farm in southern Ontario. When I heard the cattle crying for a week after having their calf’s taken away it broke my heart. This is what started my journey to veganism.
"those animals were bred for food" yeah and some children were born to be organ doners for their terminally ill siblings against their will, and because that's why they were born, that makes it okay, right?
what if a human was born to be eaten? what if some people decided to birth a human baby with the intent to kill and eat it? that's okay too then, right?
istg people are so exhausting and willfully ignorant it's sickening
Oh my fucking god
This is so extremely sad. I was looking at the bison extermination video a few days ago and then seeing this post, wow. It made me feel such a deep despair. Because think about it...
What did we do to the land? We boxed it off into "land islands". Hear me out...back in the past, you could travel or roam or be a nomad, and walk from one end of the (USA) to the other. The bison used to roam and graze and move whenever the temperature changes(?) I think.
Anyway, my point: We've completely destroyed land-based migration unless you have a vehicle and even then we sectioned off so much of the world you can't really enjoy the world. Land animals can't (safely) migrate anymore. Ugh it sounds so stupid the way I wrote it but I don't know how to explain it better, sorry. It just made me really sad to think that we can't walk across the country because you will eventually have to cross a highway. And some of those highways have massive walls that you can't even hop over. We made our world less convenient, not more. It's just that the effects of the current convenience blind us to the fact that this is not sustainable living. This can't go on forever or we will exhaust all of our resources and literally die when the ecosystems can no longer sustain themselves. Not even exaggerating, if we don't start taking care of the animals and plants and our oceans we will die. How this isn't more urgent, it is not a surprise to me why...but it is just sad as hell that humans can't just not be pieces of fucking shit about everything. We're evil. All we do is consume and destroy and don't care about anything or anyone else if it doesn't personally involve making our own life better. Selfish.
I was sitting here so disgusted by comments on Twitter people being ignorant and cruel just as you say and came here and saw your comment. My heart swelled. Thank you for sharing this heartfelt message. Some days it is unbearable to see how tortured these precious beings are. When that Kristi lady wrote about murdering her dog everyone was so angry blasting her. I took that opportunity to post videos of pigs being gassed electrocuted and stabbed. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs so please dont tell me you’re an animal lover cause you have a dog but aren’t vegan! And even the outrage from the murdered pet has died down. Americans have a short attention span. And they don’t want to know where what they consume comes from because if they find out the truth that a cow is repeatedly raped, impregnated over and over in order to give birth then has the baby calf ripped away AT BIRTH so they can box
up her milk for human babies or make ice cream for kids- well then they might have to stop having it. Imagine being that selfish? Idk how old you are but there’s a great program at a school called The Institute for Humane Education started by Zoe Weil. They’re teaching teachers how to educate children about the truth if how systems work in a way that is developmentally appropriate. If children knew their chicken nugget came from a tortured innocent chicken or that baby chicks are ground up ALIVE they’d choose veganism. Maybe you could get involved with their program somehow? It’s important not to feel helpless because then you can become depressed by it all. Practice self care. Don’t expose yourself to only the horrors of it all. Try to seek out positive stories like that school and their work. And again thank you for your post and for having such a kind compassionate heart. I’m attaching a link to Zoe’s Ted talk for you. [https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI](https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI)
People lack empathy in general. You ask why people don't care about the animals when really you can ask that about anything. How many times have you seen homeless people depicted as drug addicts or people too lazy to get jobs? TLDR: humans suck
To answer your homeless question.
Because it’s true 60% of the time either because the homeless get fucked over by scammers pretending to be homeless so there’s no trust in others whatsoever.
Or they’re too far gone in the needle or powder or whatever it is they’re using. I’ve been scammed once by a “desperate man” so yea, fuck empathy.
Why are you so angry?
Also if you're asking "who's fault" homeless people are then I can tell you homelessness is a complex issue that can be caused by many different factors.
I just returned to veganism after a brief time vegan in the early 2000s. I was urged to do it by my conscience and love for animals. It is really nice to read contemplative posts about compassion for animals in a real way. I hope you are able to help address the ills of our animal abusing society. I feel like we all can make a difference in small ways and then maybe a few others in larger ways. Thank you for your post.
Thank you so much! That's awesome that you went back to being vegan and it's great to know you care about the animals, and that there are people that do. Thanks for the good wishes with all of this- I hope someone out there, anyone does something to protect these helpless, voiceless innocent souls even in situations such as animal experimentation, and every area out there. Animals are just so mistreated and there needs to be regulation when it comes to what happens out there at least in agriculture and any governmental arenas.
Look at church and private school statistics in different areas, Hollywood cash trails, the widespread pharmaceutical lies and the basic effects of eating red meat long term. Now realize how difficult this information is to get through the mainstream media and the massive trail of dead "free speakers" ... We live in a puppet state that has boundless control generations in advance. People don't care about animals because it's not in human nature to care about animals in a primal setting,, however there is nothing natural about the state of things in current times. If we are trained and force fed information then it becomes meta because very few people actually live in proximity to the events creating the problems which is in part because of our border control issues and the fact that dairy is incorporated and mass fed to each generation through the school system. Ofc it's built on lies, but lies pay the bills and well timed distractions can be placed at any point and in perfect order to fry the human attention span away from things that actually matter(it's a basic technique in mass manipulation)
In short I'm not mad about the wronging of animal life, I'm mad because of the disregard for sustainability that affects all life on earth
We as vegans are a minuscule exception from the rule. Human nature is to consume and destroy everything, including ourselves. Humans are in general an anomaly on this planet and we shouldn't exist for the greater good. There's proof all around us for who wants to see it. I have lost all my hope that anything will change in a way that actually matters.
Just let people be unless you want to lose everyone in your life. Imagine going clothes shopping with a friend and them going on a huge rant about child workers, abuse and sweat shops or when you’re enjoying an unusually warm day and they go at you about climate change.
There are so many injustices in this world.
I guarantee that your way only pisses people off and there has to be some balance.
I hear you but it’s basically either they do their best to ignore it in order to absolve themselves from responsibility because deep down they know it’s wrong; or they genuinely just don’t see anything wrong with it. Lots of humans are so used to eating animal products even if you tell them or show them what happens they feel nothing because fundamentally they don’t view animals as deserving of anything more. I was cracking jokes around some strangers the other day and when a friend commented on my veganism someone asked, “Why are you vegan? I mean it’s just an animal. Like they’re food.” Now I’m sure this person doesn’t view dogs, cats, horses or hamsters as food but people don’t care to think further than ‘these animals are okay to eat, because they are, and these animals aren’t okay to eat, because they aren’t’
Why dont people care about habitat loss for native plants? Or destruction of ancient artwork? Why don't people care about _____suffering?
People *do* care, but theres only enough energy to go around. There are very dedicated groups for each of these, and veganism and animal rights concerns have exploded in the last century.
Consider what I call the privilege of our own experience. No one else has lived your life. You've received an education in how to care about certain things more than others have.
I used to have a really high bar for what I expected from people; we live in the information age, after all. What I've come to learn is that information may abound, but the tools and motivation to access are not evenly distributed.
For example, I'm gay. This has motivated me to read up on gender and orientation a lot for the past 15 years. Back when I was just a confused ally, i was still an ally, but very uninformed. My heart was in the right place but I hadn't had the *experience* yet to motivate me to learn. Now I try to have a little more patience for people who are new to gender discussions, because they havent had the decade of unlearning I've had. Yes, Wikipedia is right there, but deprogramming takes time!
Misinformation abounds, too. We get a lot of images of happy farm animals. We also have a culture of mythology assuming animals are happy in their roles, going back to Eden and God making animals for humans to eat. Even if most people arent religious, this 'appeal to nature' fallacy runs deep.
When we go into the world, there are MANY things demanding our awareness and compassion. Consider a squirrel. Your mind is aware of many things happening around you, but if you were to focus on it all at once it would be overwhelming, ao your mind lets most of it go. If you are driving theres a squirrel in a tree, your mind will likely see it, but deprioritize it because driving is more important.
People are stressed out. We are experiencing a global mental health crisis. Images of suffering are everywhere we look. Asking people to entirely turn over their diets, one of the most basic and routine aspects of life is a huge ask.
This is even more imposing when we consider identity, one of the hardest things to change about ourselves. It's maladaptive, but meat is closely toed to nationality, masculinity, etc. Yes people *should* change, but asking people to change an identity is almost always percieved as an attack.
We can help people by showing them the door, but we need to handle them with kid gloves. Once their identity is threatened, we lose the game.
IMHO, life is hard and most people have a limited bandwidth for empathy even with other humans.
Most people are just in survival mode 90% of the time, and have never seen the meat your meat type expose videos of the horrific lives that these billions of factory "farmed" animals actually suffer.
Plus, habits are hard to break esp once people are in their late 20's or 30's. Just look at US politics for example, we all have our tribes. We plant-based peeps are blessed to possess the empathy and to have made this change, for our own health, the environment, the suffering creatures, etc altho I suppose it is also a curse on some level.
On a positive note, I just learned that RZA of the Wu Tang Clan has been vegan for 25 years. Great story in NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/climate/wu-tang-clan-rza-vegan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk0.zUco.14xHXUY0ohvc&smid=url-share (free gift link, should work).
I believe people don’t care because humans are an innately selfish species. They want what they want, consequences be damned. Obviously some of us have risen above this but I think most humans do not care about the plight of others unless and until it directly affects them. Sad but true.
Aren't all animals selfish? I don't think any of them care for other animals unless it helps them survive. In our case you can say we reached a point where we don't really need meat anymore. But I wouldn't call most animals not selfish.
There are multiple documented cases of non-human animals spontaneously helping other animals for no apparent gain. Of course, it's not necessarily the norm, but the capacity is there.
I think altruistic behavior is something older than humanity. I also think it's possible it only exists because there is some net survival advantage. Nonetheless, the experience in the moment is one of helping another and expecting nothing back.
Such behavior appears to have something like a dial that can be turned up or down in response to various pressures, but not always consciously. One philosophical argument you could make is that by becoming more conscious of all this, you have a greater ethical responsibility to set that dial at a higher level if you can handle it.
I mean humans also have multiple document cases of helping others for no reason. It is weird to call humans selfish and then say well some animals helped other a few times. Some philosopher also be claim that humans help other humans to feel better about them self. But I don't see how humans are some how more selifhs than other animals. I would really argue that almost every animal is selfish. Their top priority is for them to survive and to have offspring. Some animals do this by eating grass and avoiding "violence" others by eating animals. But both of them prioritize themself, and if themself and wouldn't mind if another animal thst they don't know gets hurt.
I'm not sure I got my point across.
All I'm saying is that in my opinion, humans in general have a greater duty than other animals to consciously choose altruism. Like with nearly everything else, when we do it well, we do it better than all the rest.
Many animals besides humans are capable of altruism, and we are all also capable of being selfish. In fact, selfishness is probably usually the default, yes. However, there is an argument to be made that it's often not the best available strategy, and that consciously choosing less selfish behavior could be better for everyone & everything in the long run in many situations.
I was commenting on him saying that humans are a selfish species. My point was all animals are selfish. I didn't say don't be Vegan, don't try to help or what ever. Not what I was talking about. Simply found his statement weird.
Not selfish in the sense that animals don't take any more than they need, and are designed to need, to survive.
Unlike humans in their need to demonstrate status and acquire all the hallmarks of wealth- hence destroying nature and killing trillions of other living beings in the process in order to have more and do more.
Animals are not selfish on anything near the same scale as humans. They are the original minimalists.
Animals still Hunt even when they are pets and fed well daily. House Cats , who are allowed to leave the house, are literally at fault for extension of certain birds. Like I am fine with you critizing humans, cause they technically are at this point quite advanced and can set no or less meat and etc. But I don't understand how you claim that animals are not selfish and only take what they need when this isn't the case. Isn't even the fact that they hunt other to survive them self a good example of selfishness? They don't care how the other animal do, aslong they are fine . Even when being pets they still don't care for animals outside of the circle they grew up with or live with.
I'm not sure using domesticated cats is a good example for what we are discussing. We have dominated nature and destroyed the natural habitat and lives of the animals we have now turned into pets. Their natural drive to hunt has been subverted. In nature big cats hardly move except to hunt, and only when they need to eat. We've taken that away from our cats. So no, they're not trying to take more than they need- they just had their entire way of life destroyed because of human civilization. They don't know why they hunt anymore- it is now a confusing and useless natural drive that serves the domesticated cat no purpose. They are just acting out an urge they can no longer fulfill. We did that to them.
Orcas murder seals for fun and dolphins are sick little freaks. “Animals don’t take more than they need” is false. Animals will eat another animal’s food and then their food even if they’re disgustingly full. Many animals kill or play with their prey for fun. Kangaroos throw their own babies to the predators for a chance to escape. Most animals practice selfishness or cruelty, it’s not uniquely human whatsoever.
Because of the same mentality they used on slaves to justify it.
"They're not humans and are not as important as us so their pains and suffering doesn't matter." It fuels entitlement over someone else.
It's horrible but people really don't give a shit about animals. Some less then others but overall people don't give a shit
Two reasons.
We generally don't care about suffering unless we can witness it. Sounds cold, but that's reality. Even for you I'm sure it's true. Like, Singer's paper alludes to that. We all have the choice to avoid vain luxuries and donate all of our excess wealth for charity but we don't. We buy iPhones, knowing that they surely have an element of child labor. We buy blood diamonds. We waste money on luxury brands, on nestle, on Saudi oil etc etc. It's out of sight out of mind for us tbh.
Also the second reason is it's not usually an argument over morals between vegans and non-vegans, rather an argument over facts. Non-vegans don't co anthropomorphize animals at all. A cow being slaughtered, for most people, will be no different than a tree being cut.
I know this comment will probably be down voted to all hell but I want to share this as a non vegan. I view a cow being killed and eaten as a basic ritual of life with life sustaining life. Even though I eat meat, it bothers me if an animal is killed for no reason, but I can rationalize if it has a viable reason. An extreme example of this is a messed up video I found on the Internet of a few teens hunting down a cat to kill in Venezuela. I was bothered when I first started watching the video because like you said we anthropomorphize animals we don't eat, but when they started to cook and eat the cat I no longer felt like they were doing something wrong. They were sustaining themselves just like all life does. I don't think eating meat makes you a bad person. We can all agree factory farming is a gross extreme, but there are farms out there that don't operate at that massive scale and treat animals well.
The viable reason, in most cases, is "taste pleasure". Most people eat meat since it's the social norm and it tastes good. It might also be a bit more convenient than a plant based diet, although vegan products have been steadily rising the past few years. You don't **need** to eat meat.
So the question arises, what makes "taste pleasure" so much more unique than other sorts of gratification? If animals are allowed to be factory farmed, selectively bred and massacred on a global scale for "taste pleasure*, why can't they be similarly treated for suppose "sexual gratification "? Or any sort of pleasure tbh, if we can skin them to make belts why can't I go and beat up a dog just because.
This willfully ignores that meat is very nutritional and has unique amino acids that your body needs. Trust me we didn't just start eating meat because of "taste pleasure". Animals provide nutrients to billions around the world and if everyone would switch to a vegan diet tomorrow we would definitely go into a famine very soon. I know it's not convenient but it is the world we live in. Meat is very nutrient dense and we use a lot of food waste from produce to feed those animals. We are legitimately already having a soil crisis across multiple continents that really needs to be addressed. Your comparisons are nonsensical.
I see. Then I guess it's just a disagreement over facts. Meat is nutritious, but a vegan based diet is just as much if not more. There are many papers on this topic which show that a plant based diet is not at all inferior.
>Animals provide nutrients to billions around the world and if everyone would switch to a vegan diet tomorrow we would definitely go into a famine very soon. I know it's not convenient but it is the world we live in. Meat is very nutrient dense and we use a lot of food waste from produce to feed those animals. We are legitimately already having a soil crisis across multiple continents that really needs to be addressed. Your comparisons are nonsensical.
I agree, but what you're resorting to is sunk cost fallacy. Basically, things are shit rn and you'd rather they stay shit than sacrifice in the short term for long term gain. You don't even want us to *move* in that direction. We're all well aware universal veganism is a fantasy, but that does not mean we cannot pave the way for future generations.
Also, this reason doesn't explain why **you** are not vegan. Yes, legislation is required for a plant based diet, but what does that have to do with your personal choice for wanton animal abuse? You're eating meat not for the nutritional value nor for preventing global famine. You're eating meat for the **taste pleasure** it provides.
You keep mentioning taste pleasure, you must have loved the taste of meat or something. Meat has essential vitamins that cannot be found in a vegan diet. Quite comical that you dismiss eating meat for its nutrients, since that is legitimately the reason we eat. Get off your moral high horse. I've been to plenty of farms where the animals are not abused. You're trying to cling to extremes to suit your opinion. We can always do better moving forward, but that doesn't mean society should just stop eating meat because some people find it wrong. Hunting is also a great way to make sure the process is as humane as possible.
>It's really confusing
What's confusing about it ? Other people feel differently from you, that's pretty normal. I ain't confused why people think that forcing an unconsenting individual to exist is OK, I think its disgusting, but that's just how many humans are. It is human nature to be a selfish unempathetic asshole.
People have been culturally conditioned (generally in western nations) to care about the lives of cats and dogs, but not about the lives of chickens, cows, goats, pigs, etc. The first group is seen as a companion, and the second group is seen as a product. That's why it's hard to get people to care, because of cultural pressure, tradition (everyone around you eats meat and dairy), and clever marketing by the meat and dairy industry with messages like "you must eat meat for protein" and "milk is good for your bones".
>animal rights masters degree
Huh? A what now?
>I don't believe it
Willful ignorance, show them Dairy is Scary.
>well these animals were bred for food
You can use "well some dogs were bred for dogfighting, do you support that?"
>Why can't animals have "some" protection in the farming industries?
They do in some countries, just not the US.
>who dictated that animal meat should be considered 'food' anyway
Well humans are omnivorous and evolved to be able to hunt and eat meat. So that's why. Of course, we don't need to eat meat, but since we have been doing it, people continued and found a way to mass produce it.
Most people have a difficult time with empathy. You’d be hard pressed to find a random person in the street who actually/honestly cares about other PEOPLE, let alone animals.
I mean, they all consider themselves “good people” but they probably haven’t given any thought to what that actually means.
So, for many folks… you’re simply not going to get through to them.
No matter how logical, rational, positive, kind, or factual you are, you’re not getting through.
Thats a tough thing to realize, but it will help you stay sane in this crazy world.
Personally, the most successful things I’ve seen (regarding change, and watching someone go vegetarian/vegan) is:
1) Vanity. If you have a magical secret that can make someone feel/look younger, sexier, healthier, have more energy, lose weight, and sleep better… they might listen. Veganisim offers all that, but you need to look like a good spokesperson by looking great too.
2) Taste. Learn to cook amazing food, and share it as often as possible. Don’t even mention it’s vegan, because if it’s good, they’ll ask you for the recipe, and THATS when you tell them it’s plant based.
3) Be a great spokesperson. People tend to gravitate toward smart, funny, interesting, attractive, and energetic folk. Be one of those people. When someone asks (and they will!) what your exercise, or diet routine is, explain that being vegan is your big secret.
It sucks, but you’ll have WAY more success changing minds that way.
I hate to say it, but the stereotypes about vegans (Bitter, angry, militant, irrational, weak, sickly, tired, depressed, humorless, etc) are often reinforced by the very same people who are trying to change hearts and minds… it’s counterproductive.
It’s literally a marketing issue.
Honestly i believe the vegan movement picked between two losing battles.
It can't possibly convince most of the consumers into veganism because meat is too plentifull and available, also would have to fight the propaganda the rich produce in order to mantain their businesses.
It also can't convince or being more real, destroy the meat industry so that meat isn't even available for purchase,.
Basically its a circlejerk movement that is morally and logically correct, but doesn't have the means of being successfull in its goals without becoming a radical movement.
Capitalism is all about exploiting bodies for profit. It's hard enough to build class consciousness and solidarity; the challenge of vegan leftists is to simultaneously build recognition that animal and human suffering are inextricable under capitalism.
I legitimately grew up believing cows would be sad if you didn’t milk them. I’m not even kidding. I loooved cows as a kid. It took seeing to believing.
People are generally evil and selfish, we lie, cheat, flake, ignore etc; alot of people were bullies, and some still are as adults
Most people are only decent because of laws and society, its bad to be racist in some areas so people arent racist and others are only decent cause of religion
We live in a world of thoughts and prayers which is the most useless thing you could offer, its worse than offering nothing
Holocaust was only stopped cause of a war, slavery the same thing at least in USA
I decided i wanted to leave society and become a buddhist monk as i have accepted we are just an evil species for the most part, i spend most of my time by myself, i do volunteer so i talk with people for that, at some point i just want to live in a temple away from all the evil people
When it comes to caring about people in dating, i feel its mostly selfish, i had no problem with caring for gals that werent interested in me, even if they had a partner already and had 0 interest in me, my feelings did not change for them, i would still help them and do things for them, if i did date a gal and she later told me she met a dude who made her happier, i would tell her to get with him as my only desire is that she be happy, when gals rejected me, i would offer to help them find a suitable dude that they would be interested in
In my experience 99% of people do not behave this way in relationships, they want the partner and would do anything to not lose them because of how being with them makes themselves feel, they put their needs before their partners
Ie; people are just always selfish
What you are not understanding is that many people do not see animals as equivalent to humans and have no ethical issues keeping and eating animals.
I'm the same, I have empathy and care about the wellbeing of my species, others are not particularly relevant to me.
People (including many but not all vegans) don’t really even get a shit about other HUMAN BEINGs. So I’m not surprised a lot of people can divorce their love of meat from how they feel about animals.
It’s about nuance. People can be animal lovers and also understand that animals provide us with food in a variety of ways. Also whole fat ice cream has tons of nutrients in it!
>Today I was witnessing my friend eat ice cream and began telling him that many calves and cows have to die in order for us to eat any form of dairy.
For those of you who like to argue vegans arent annoying and its meat eaters who bother you, remember this moment. These are the random unsolicited remarks people associate with you.
>His other response was that "these animals were bred to be used for food" which to be is such a horrific thing to say about them.
This is objectively true about almost everything we consume. From corn to bananas. This is called domestication.
>We shouldn't be breeding animals for any reason much less food, and **these animals shouldn't even exist** and if they do they deserve a healthy decent life at the very least.
Theres a chance many of us wouldnt be here today if we didnt domesticate dogs. Seriously. Not trolling.
> I've heard many ignorant stupid people make comments such as "well these animals were bred for food." That makes zero sense
You seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of domestication. These animals were very well bred for certain qualities that make them favorable to eat. Like being larger for example. We do this with crops too. The bananas we eat are much bigger than bananas in the wild. Not to mention you arent spitting out huge seeds every bite.
>Who on earth would want "the real thing"- a real live dead animal I mean really? So people are so stupid they want to eat a living breathing animal rather than fake meat, and the idea of animal meat itself is pretty awful anyway.
I cant talk about the earth, but I can talk about the USA. The answer is 91%. 91% would rather eat a living breathing animal. I got my numbers from [Statista](https://www.statista.com/topics/3377/vegan-market/#topicOverview). 4% of US is vegan, 5% vegetarian.
>People just don't care about the welfare of these helpless animals and I know there are people that do but can anyone explain why these organizations aren't able to make any major changes in these stupid agricultural industries? Why can't animals have "some" protection in the farming industries? It's really confusing. It also sickens me that humans are just living their lives in peace eating away innocent animals who had to live the most horrific lives possible, and they just don't care about where their so-called 'food' came from. Also who dictated that animal meat should be considered 'food' anyway it makes zero sense to think that the bodies of living sentient creatures should be considered food for humans.
You answered your own question. Most of us do not care, or not enough to change anything. Who dictated animal meat should be considered food? Nature did. Over 2 million years ago. Not some individual person. Humans all over the world with no contact with one another made animal meat a part of their diet. Its universal but it wasnt like an edict or anything. Thats where "hunter gatherer" and "nomadic" type terms for early humans come from. You see, societies needed domesticated animals to have farms big enough to sustain populations. Take oxen or donkeys for example. Afro-Eur-Asians domesticated these animals because they could pull carts full of produce versus humans simply back and fourth carrying what could fit in their hands or in primitive baskets or bags.
You might really benefit from taking an anthropology course. A lot of your questions could be answered there. Before anyone jumps on the appeals to nature fallacy train, OP is asking questions about nature. So its supposed to be mentioned.
What do you do to actively decrease the effects of child labor in your life?
What about female exploitation?
That's how some people feel about animals.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/rights/child-labour-unicef-mines-amnesty-international-ilo/amp
> Today I was witnessing my friend eat ice cream and began telling him that many calves and cows have to die in order for us to eat any form of dairy.
YTA. There is probably no moment when your friend would have been LESS open to hearing your concerns. Totally counterproductive. Just as vegans don't want to be hassled over what they eat, you are not moving anything forward by hassling others.
Why can't it be both? Do you like bunnies? Because bunnies get caught by machines when harvesting vegetables every single day. You must not care about them at all, by your own logic.
Willingly choosing to eat animals is different than animals dying during the process of farming. It’s completely different. This is a place to share opinions, if you are not vegan what are you doing in vegan threads besides trying to argue? ..
Animals are fed far more plants to grow them than if we just ate the plants directly. More than 80% of the world's soy is fed to cattle. Also, plants aren't sentient animals ya numnut.
What are you even on about? I will try to make it simpler for you.
a) Far less plants are used for a vegan diet so it's still better on this front. If you're complaining about this and still eat animal products, you're a gigantic hypocrite.
b) Plants aren't sentient animals.
The title of the post is why don’t people care about animals. My answer is for the same reason vegans don’t care about plants.
Your two responses don’t address this answer to the question at all. You have wasted both our time. Twice.
lol okay, since you actually seem to be dumb, plants are not sentient beings and therefore have less value than animals; y’know, the way you mow a lawn but wouldn’t run over your dog with a lawnmower, is that any more helpful, sir?
So when vegans say they care about life, they don’t actually mean it. Got it.
ETA: non human animals aren’t sapient and therefore are valued less than humans. This is the argument you’re making about plants. Are you comfortable with this position?
They don’t say they care about life lmao that’s not a vegan tenant. They care about suffering ya dipshit. Like oh my god you GOT EM, they’re hypocrites because they take antibiotics wow. This fake argument you’re making is so terrible 😂
I don’t think they don’t but to get back to the sensitivity you have it is a lot of thing yo understand and change. You are fighting tradition and used. Imo more people will go vegetarians or vegan if you talk about eco friendly pre occupation
Because for most people meat in a store doesn’t remind them of animals. It’s neatly packed with maybe a picture of a smiling cow on it. Also there’s hardly ever visible blood in the package.
People don’t know what stock breeding actually looks like. Or what goes on in a slaughterhouse. It’s easy to look away.
Because people suck. They have no morals and ethics. Most people barely care about others save for their families and close friends, how can you expect them to care about animals?
Have you seen how many birds get killed at the average almond farm?
Or how many mice, rats, pigs, dogs, kangaroos, deer etc are either poisoned, ploughed or shot on the average grain or legume farm?
Preaching not eating meat for humane reasons is hypocritical unless you are farming your food yourself or buying it from someone who you know doesn't kill animals.
Good luck surviving the next mouse plague in that case too.
Boring argument. Animals are fed the vast majority of crops grown. So by eating animal products you pay for both far more crop deaths and the animal deaths themselves. This argument supports veganism which aims to cause as little harm to animals as practically possible.
There is such a thing as an animal law degree, and a humane degree. There is no such thing as a masters degree in animal rights. You literally made that up. Also, attacking people over ice cream is changing zero minds. If you’re gonna be passionate, do it with meat, ice cream isn’t the way to sway anybody.
That isn’t a degree in animal rights. It’s literally an animal law degree, which I already said exists.
I love how the rules on civility in the sub only go one way.
It’s not impossible. But if you really care about bunnies and mice getting caught in harvesters then you’d also be against eating animals and animal products as far more crops needed to be harvested to feed animals in order to then feed humans. No, I understand that humans eat many more animals than the ones I’ve listed, do you want me to list them all or is it fine that I’ve included some of the most commonly slaughtered animals?
The only way it's possible is to go back to hand picking crops. Have you ever worked on a farm? When I was a teenager I worked on a farm for a few summers, when you hear screaming you hop off the tractor, grab a tool/weapon and put whatever was crushed out of its misery. The farm I worked on grew vegetables exclusively
Yes, I have, the same happens on arable farms, but I see my intuition was right that you don’t actually care about these animals, but about trying to justify torturing animals to be eaten
Millions of chickens are boiled alive in scalding tanks - the USDA actually has data to track this. I would say that’s pretty clearly torture (I would genuinely be frightened if you think this is okay). Many sows spend their whole lives in pens so small they can’t turn around. Pigs are gassed in CO2 gas that gives them excruciating burns on all of their mucous membranes while suffocating them. They have their teeth pulled out without anesthesia. Male chicks are ground up alive. If this isn’t torture, what is?
Again, if you care about animals getting crushed under tractors and harvesters, why aren’t you eliminating your consumption of animals since far more animals are killed this way in the process of growing feed for animals? I know why, because you never cared about these deaths in the first place, it’s just an empty whataboutism because you want to justify torturing animals.
I implore you to see how awful these experiences are for farmed animals. Please, have some mercy for them
How does your judgement about their relative value justify the horrific levels of cruelty inflicted on them? You can have compassion for sentient beings even if you regard them as inferior.
Many people, including myself to some extent don’t care even about same humans dying of starvation, war, disease on the other side of the earth, or even in the same country and sometimes even justify their suffering
I mean every species only cares about the survival of its own species. We have man-made morals/ethics which we share to make the world a better place, and for many people, veganism is part of that. But they are still meaningless in the grand scheme of things so you can't expect everyone to abide by them. Others may feel forcing a cat to eat vegan cat food as opposed to tuna is unethical, but we can't all agree on everything.
Eating animals for food is as natural as using your legs to walk. When you ask "who dictated eating animals". The answer is no one has to dictate. Humans and their ancestors decided for themselves and being the superior species we can hunt and eat other living beings. You could be presented with valid reasons and you'd pretty much still be in denial and say it makes zero sense to you. Which is fine, no one should have to convince you and seek your blessings to eat meat.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to watch the YouTube channel "Latest Sighting" and see an innocent Impala lecture the crocodile on morality while it gets ripped apart alive in a peaceful way.
You can't expect everyone to care for every animals on earth especially the obscure ones. I only care for some animals and it's the most realistic thing to do.
Oh no a group of sea sponges of the phylum whatever is being threatened by phylum neophytus sisipus phosphorus... Ok.
I don’t even care about the guy living down a block from me. I ain’t wasting no time thinking the cruelty that’s happening at a farm. I just eat what I like and if a million cows have to die for my steak, I don’t care.
You will quickly learn that A) most people will not stop eating meat, and B) vegans do not want to improve the lives of farm animals, they want people to stop eating animals products entirely (which will never happen and for good reasons).
As a non vegan willing to learn and consider my lifestyle I can say it’s the way you go about it. Trying to make someone feel like shit while they’re actively consuming an animal product is not the way to teach and has proven to not be effective time and time again. It just makes you look preachy and pushy.
Do you weep for the mice killed by the thresher? For the wasps that die to fertilize the figs? Do you weep for the grass you mow, the corn you eat?
Life must consume life to live. Humanity has eaten meat since we rose from our first cradle; we are obligate omnivores, and we suffer when we remove meat from our diets. If you have not suffered, you are lucky- but we have evolved to be reliant on the iron we receive from meat.
The cat eats the mouse, the bird eats the worm. Grass sends warning signals to other plants when cut. All life seeks to live, and all life must consume life to live.
People only care about their close family and friends. Outside of that group, no one really bothers. You don't kill your neighbour because you care about them, you don't because you think it's morally wrong. No one really loses their sleep over the murder of someone they don't know. That's why slavery was rampant for so long. Taking that into account, what does an animal in some random farm mean to the average person? Nothing. That's why veganism comes easier to people who bond with animals.
>You don't kill your neighbour because you care about them, you don't because you think it's morally wrong Some of the people I’ve proselytized about veganism to have agreed that animal agriculture is morally wrong but still partake in it, so I almost think that’s giving people too much credit. Really I think it’s because there are consequences for killing your neighbor such that not killing your neighbor is actually in your best interest. If killing your neighbor was legal and could benefit a person in some way, some people would do it even if they did think it was immoral. It being illegal is a sort of contract where we forfeit our right to murder our neighbor and gain the comfort of knowing that our neighbors are also prohibited from murdering us. Since animals mostly lack the ability to kill us anyway, there’s nothing to gain from having such a contract with them, hence killing animals is legal and free of consequence
That also plays a part, but if it were the whole story, you could get away with hosting dog fights for example. There's nothing to gain from such a contract either.
That’s how you get libertarians
[удалено]
TIL I'm dead
We don't need to eat animals to survive.
I only went vegan about six months ago and spent a lot of time thinking about why I hadn't done it earlier (I wasn't even vegetarian). I think the thing is because it's so normalised to eat meat, you grow up eating meat because it's easier. At some point, you start to understand what's involved and it's terrible, but eating animal products is so normal, so it can't be bad right? So you spend years suppressing that knowledge and coming up with justifications. And after years of practice, these views become very rigid and hard to change. Especially because deep down, people know what's involved, they feel attacked when people confront them on it, since they feel a certain guilt. And what do people do when they feel attacked? They get more defensive and stick to their opinion even more. After all, it's easier to see the others as the "extreme, radical vegans" than to question one's own views. Another factor is that becoming vegan isn't easy. It isn't hard, but you need to research how to do it in a healthy manner. You need to figure out where to get certain nutrients and which ones you need to supplement (funnily enough, people seem to think that you automatically get all of these nutrients if you eat animal products). That can seem intimidating. A final factor I'd like to mention is the fact that people want a perfect solution. People are quick to name the dietary problems and climate issues with veganism (some of which are legitimate, some of which are incorrect). It's true, veganism isn't perfect. But what they fail to acknowledge is that it's still better than other options and hence becoming vegan would definitely be an improvement. In summary, people don't care about animals because that's the only way they can continue to eat animal products without feeling guilty and avoid the discomfort of questioning their own views and changing their lifestyle.
The hardest part about going Vegan is not the food. The hardest part is the social aspect of going against the normalcy of your culture.
I'd say this depends on the culture in question.
Exactly. And I’m going to share a link to a very cool Video vegans can share when we are being attacked for our beliefs in compassion for animals. [https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI](https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI)
Vegan is human Pigs are All eater and All eater are p...
I understand where you're coming from, but you cannot simply change people's hearts about an issue by being passionate about it yourself. Just because it has meaning to you does not mean that it is meaningful to them. Presenting information alone rarely works to have a person open up and reflect on their values. If the goal is to change a person's behaviours, you need to make it align with THEIR values, not yours. I have had this conversation with people in my class. They get naturally curious why I am vegan and choose plant based foods. Most of the time, people are brain-washed into accepting industrialised animal agriculture. Think about children's books and shows. They learn about farm animals first. The farm animals that are always so happy to be of service. The farmer provides them with love, care, and a good life. So the farmer's reward is to kill and eat the animal. Nothing abusive or terrible is painted in these pictures. And then when you get to an age to question your values (e.g. 7 yrs), you are peer pressured into accepting the "Common is moral" fallacy. Everyone does it, so there is no harm in you doing it too. And if you don't accept it, then you must be judging them and are ostracised as an outsider for attacking their psyche by simply practicing the alternative. So people generally aren't aware of the slaughter of a month old calf for veal or waste to make space for humans to consume the milk the little calf would have. Dairy cows could live up to 10 - 12 years, but the stress of repeated pregnancies have them slaughtered after 4-5 years when milk production declines. During which they are expected to have a calf every 12 months. Now this is background knowledge for us, but would this help saying to someone eating ice cream "hey, you're a baby killer."? Like, how can they possibly save face in that situation? If a person cannot save face, they will simply shut you out. It diminishes any influence or opportunity to help people reflect on their true values. I wait for people to question why I am vegan, rather than question why they are not vegan. And then I simply lay out how I came to my own conclusions. "I love milk too much, I could never give it up. Why would you give it up?" "I like plant-based milks and I feel awful for the baby cow's who are taken away from their mother's to produce that milk. I am happy with my plant-based milks." "What do you mean the baby cow's are taken away?" "Cow's need to give birth to produce milk, like humans and other mammals." "What, I thought they made it out of grass!" (This is so common). "Sadly no." "What happens to the babies?" "Veal." "Oh." "Yeah." And then you just leave it like that. Let the wheels turn in their own head. Give them space to process their inner dialogue. Let people come to their own conclusions about what they are comfortable with. They have to own that knowledge and that decision in order to create intrinsic motivation. Otherwise, the motivation will be external and immediately fall away as soon as the source does. You can activate a person's motivation to align their behaviours with their values, but you cannot change their fundamental values. If they lack empathy and any sort of regard for cherishing and respecting life, you are draining your energy that could be used to support someone else who is genuinely interested and open to considering new perspectives. Do not info dump or force your values onto someone else. It's highly unlikely to be effective, and will leave you drained, angry, and depressed. Find out what is meaningful to other people first, then gently provide reflective discussions in how veganism meaningful aligns with their true values. But to be influential, you first have to genuinely connect with the person before they will be open to your views.
This is the answer right here! Give people the straightforward information after THEY ask and then hope it makes an impact somehow. You don't have to hang any pathos on it at all because the facts are already that horrific and grim. Let them go home and google it to clear their conscience; we all know what they're going to find. It has to come from within or it won't stick. If the end result of the conversation is that the person I spoke with consumes less meat or dairy in their daily lives, that's a win imo.
> I've heard many ignorant stupid people make comments such as "well these animals were bred for food." I can't even figure out what the argument is supposed to be. Yes, it is correct that (some) humans have decided to breed animals for food, just like some humans have decided to sell other humans as sex slaves. But what is the argument that makes it right? If someone has a purpose for X, then X is right? ”Well these humans are kept for sex slavery, so it must be right lmao”.
people generally have quite bad reasoning capabilities. Or their ability to reason is conditioned too much by unconscious things and feelings. People dont know why they believe certain things apart from just it being what they have always done and everyone around them has always done.
It was actually the exact response I had before going vegan, I guess it's just cognitive dissonance. I used to think that, if it weren't for us they wouldn't exist at all. They live their life and at the end they are of some use for us. Somehow I just never thought about it from the perspective of the animal itself. Now i know not existing at all is actually a far kinder option.
I agree with you and once justified eating animals as ‘well, at least they got a shot at life!’ Yeah, easy to say when I’m not locked in a cage and force fed until my legs break under my weight
I was thinking about this earlier and I think I can understand the argument if you put the emphasis on the "bred" part. OP said every dairy cow "has to die". This is true in a trivial manner because every dairy cow has to be bred into existence, so of course they have to die eventually, and it just so happens farmers don't have the resources to keep them alive 'til their natural life span so they have to die *prematurely.* Imagine if the death were natural. A segment of the human population discovers that their unborn children have a kind of heart disease that will kill them in their sleep after a couple of years. People decide to have these children and a medical organization decides to call this heart disease an epidemic that is killing these children. They say children are dying just because people want to have kids, and their proposed solution, absent any other cure, is for people to not have these children at all. That way there's no "epidemic". Framed this way, it makes sense why so many people take the stance of welfarism and humane slaughter. It's not bad that they live and inevitably die, and food is the only reason this population would exist. The appeal to nature argument also makes sense since my hypothetical is so much more benign when its an incurable disease than when parents are having children so that they can be harvested. I can also see the "circle of life" argument, and why the language of meat being murder/a holocaust falls flat when vegans are essentially talking about death who's only solution is to prevent the births that lead to them. I think a better frame would be to talk about bringing a life into this world only for the purpose of exploiting it.
They're claiming that it isn't abuse.
i hope you realize what you look like when you tell someone they should stop eating ice cream. nobody will learn anything, and they will only end up resenting you or thinking you are cringe. that is not the way to do it. don't start with sweets and treats, start with meat, it's easier to give up. the connection that something died, so we get meat, is so much stronger. ice cream is a treat, and most people will not take it well, and the suffering connection is nowhere near the same.
I would not recommend this advice. [Faunalytics suggests not to try this when people are eating at all](https://faunalytics.org/how-to-become-a-more-effective-vegan-advocate/), as they're hungry and already committed to the meal that you are trying to make them question. You prime them so hard for a defensive response with this approach.
Yes, we all know cognitive dissonance is a thing, but somehow we act like it is not. Telling someone about cow murder while they are eating ice cream is about as effective as giving someone criticism when they are feeling low. Timing, tact, benefit of the doubt and theory of mind. Please practice them and you'll be ten time more effective.
true. People use ice cream and treats in general as a reward. these are big dopamine hits, and getting between that high is like getting between a drug addict and his drug. they will fight you tooth and nail over it. it's not enough that this happens for meat aswell, we don't need to make a hard fight even harder. my non vegan family now has land in a rural area, and now my parents want to live there, they bought a few backyard chickens. so i just took one chicken and started petting it and brought it to them to look at one close. i could see the wheels turning in their heads, and dad was like, "Am i going to have to kill this?" they know i wouldn't eat that, and they don't really need to either. i know they will get attached to the chickens because they are loving people, they love their dogs as family members. this is the slow and painful process, but at least they are receptive this way.
That's an awesome approach. I will use that as a classic example of the power of positive reinforcement!
> it's easier to give up. the connection that something died, so we get meat, is so much stronger NO. don't overthink. people simply don't care hot pot is very popular in asia and gaining popularity in the west. people put LIVING creatures such as prawns or scallops into boiling soup. you can feel the animal's last struggle just after you boil it alive people enjoy doing that
I'll be the jerk that asks if a masters in animal rights exists. I'm really trying to conceptualize what that degree would be in the real world and how a real college would offer it.
Is this in addition to a law degree? Lawyers do sometimes go on to do a Master's in a specialty area like environmental law, tax law, or something specific like that. But you don't have to be a lawyer to do these programs.
I saw plenty of masters programs in animal welfare. A few for training animals. Plenty of agriculture law stuff. Just trying to figure out what and where you get a masters in animal rights.
Re ice cream, just take them to a cool spot with veg options maybe, like [Van Leeuwens in Williamsburg Brooklyn ](https://maps.app.goo.gl/vmW5rdj2nSPVAJtdA) for example. This way, it's like a subtle suggestion, a plant-based treat, rather than a preachy self-righteous attitude which will surely just breed resentment.
My friend lives on a beef cattle farm in southern Ontario. When I heard the cattle crying for a week after having their calf’s taken away it broke my heart. This is what started my journey to veganism.
"those animals were bred for food" yeah and some children were born to be organ doners for their terminally ill siblings against their will, and because that's why they were born, that makes it okay, right? what if a human was born to be eaten? what if some people decided to birth a human baby with the intent to kill and eat it? that's okay too then, right? istg people are so exhausting and willfully ignorant it's sickening
Oh my fucking god This is so extremely sad. I was looking at the bison extermination video a few days ago and then seeing this post, wow. It made me feel such a deep despair. Because think about it... What did we do to the land? We boxed it off into "land islands". Hear me out...back in the past, you could travel or roam or be a nomad, and walk from one end of the (USA) to the other. The bison used to roam and graze and move whenever the temperature changes(?) I think. Anyway, my point: We've completely destroyed land-based migration unless you have a vehicle and even then we sectioned off so much of the world you can't really enjoy the world. Land animals can't (safely) migrate anymore. Ugh it sounds so stupid the way I wrote it but I don't know how to explain it better, sorry. It just made me really sad to think that we can't walk across the country because you will eventually have to cross a highway. And some of those highways have massive walls that you can't even hop over. We made our world less convenient, not more. It's just that the effects of the current convenience blind us to the fact that this is not sustainable living. This can't go on forever or we will exhaust all of our resources and literally die when the ecosystems can no longer sustain themselves. Not even exaggerating, if we don't start taking care of the animals and plants and our oceans we will die. How this isn't more urgent, it is not a surprise to me why...but it is just sad as hell that humans can't just not be pieces of fucking shit about everything. We're evil. All we do is consume and destroy and don't care about anything or anyone else if it doesn't personally involve making our own life better. Selfish.
I was sitting here so disgusted by comments on Twitter people being ignorant and cruel just as you say and came here and saw your comment. My heart swelled. Thank you for sharing this heartfelt message. Some days it is unbearable to see how tortured these precious beings are. When that Kristi lady wrote about murdering her dog everyone was so angry blasting her. I took that opportunity to post videos of pigs being gassed electrocuted and stabbed. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs so please dont tell me you’re an animal lover cause you have a dog but aren’t vegan! And even the outrage from the murdered pet has died down. Americans have a short attention span. And they don’t want to know where what they consume comes from because if they find out the truth that a cow is repeatedly raped, impregnated over and over in order to give birth then has the baby calf ripped away AT BIRTH so they can box up her milk for human babies or make ice cream for kids- well then they might have to stop having it. Imagine being that selfish? Idk how old you are but there’s a great program at a school called The Institute for Humane Education started by Zoe Weil. They’re teaching teachers how to educate children about the truth if how systems work in a way that is developmentally appropriate. If children knew their chicken nugget came from a tortured innocent chicken or that baby chicks are ground up ALIVE they’d choose veganism. Maybe you could get involved with their program somehow? It’s important not to feel helpless because then you can become depressed by it all. Practice self care. Don’t expose yourself to only the horrors of it all. Try to seek out positive stories like that school and their work. And again thank you for your post and for having such a kind compassionate heart. I’m attaching a link to Zoe’s Ted talk for you. [https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI](https://youtu.be/R-W3xi2jMYI)
People lack empathy in general. You ask why people don't care about the animals when really you can ask that about anything. How many times have you seen homeless people depicted as drug addicts or people too lazy to get jobs? TLDR: humans suck
To answer your homeless question. Because it’s true 60% of the time either because the homeless get fucked over by scammers pretending to be homeless so there’s no trust in others whatsoever. Or they’re too far gone in the needle or powder or whatever it is they’re using. I’ve been scammed once by a “desperate man” so yea, fuck empathy.
It's no surprise that the troll says fuck empathy lol
This comment aint a troll attempt it’s literally how it is
I called you a troll, I didn't say you were trying to troll in this comment
You replied to a comment you thought was a troll
No, I recognise your username and noted that a troll has impaired empathy
But I’m a human that’s a little specieist 🤔🤔
you're a troll, not a human
Thank you for proving my point
Yeah whose fault is it then. These “desperate men” I sincerely hope you get financially fucked over because you were too “helpful”
Why are you so angry? Also if you're asking "who's fault" homeless people are then I can tell you homelessness is a complex issue that can be caused by many different factors.
Yes, many factors that scammers can take as “their story” and rob you if your heart is good enough.
Lol you really are dying on that "scammers" hill huh? Like I said, thank you for proving my point
Yes humans do suck. But you’re one, I’m one. Except I don’t need to steal because I’m not an asshole.
You seem super angry about this subject. Why is that?
Okay, in your head, what percentage of panhandlers are scammers?
I just returned to veganism after a brief time vegan in the early 2000s. I was urged to do it by my conscience and love for animals. It is really nice to read contemplative posts about compassion for animals in a real way. I hope you are able to help address the ills of our animal abusing society. I feel like we all can make a difference in small ways and then maybe a few others in larger ways. Thank you for your post.
Thank you so much! That's awesome that you went back to being vegan and it's great to know you care about the animals, and that there are people that do. Thanks for the good wishes with all of this- I hope someone out there, anyone does something to protect these helpless, voiceless innocent souls even in situations such as animal experimentation, and every area out there. Animals are just so mistreated and there needs to be regulation when it comes to what happens out there at least in agriculture and any governmental arenas.
Completely agree. Best of luck to you with your masters!
Look at church and private school statistics in different areas, Hollywood cash trails, the widespread pharmaceutical lies and the basic effects of eating red meat long term. Now realize how difficult this information is to get through the mainstream media and the massive trail of dead "free speakers" ... We live in a puppet state that has boundless control generations in advance. People don't care about animals because it's not in human nature to care about animals in a primal setting,, however there is nothing natural about the state of things in current times. If we are trained and force fed information then it becomes meta because very few people actually live in proximity to the events creating the problems which is in part because of our border control issues and the fact that dairy is incorporated and mass fed to each generation through the school system. Ofc it's built on lies, but lies pay the bills and well timed distractions can be placed at any point and in perfect order to fry the human attention span away from things that actually matter(it's a basic technique in mass manipulation) In short I'm not mad about the wronging of animal life, I'm mad because of the disregard for sustainability that affects all life on earth
We as vegans are a minuscule exception from the rule. Human nature is to consume and destroy everything, including ourselves. Humans are in general an anomaly on this planet and we shouldn't exist for the greater good. There's proof all around us for who wants to see it. I have lost all my hope that anything will change in a way that actually matters.
Watch Twilight Zone episode To Serve Man. I doubt it will seriously shift carnivores but would give them something to think about.
Just let people be unless you want to lose everyone in your life. Imagine going clothes shopping with a friend and them going on a huge rant about child workers, abuse and sweat shops or when you’re enjoying an unusually warm day and they go at you about climate change. There are so many injustices in this world. I guarantee that your way only pisses people off and there has to be some balance.
I hear you but it’s basically either they do their best to ignore it in order to absolve themselves from responsibility because deep down they know it’s wrong; or they genuinely just don’t see anything wrong with it. Lots of humans are so used to eating animal products even if you tell them or show them what happens they feel nothing because fundamentally they don’t view animals as deserving of anything more. I was cracking jokes around some strangers the other day and when a friend commented on my veganism someone asked, “Why are you vegan? I mean it’s just an animal. Like they’re food.” Now I’m sure this person doesn’t view dogs, cats, horses or hamsters as food but people don’t care to think further than ‘these animals are okay to eat, because they are, and these animals aren’t okay to eat, because they aren’t’
Why dont people care about habitat loss for native plants? Or destruction of ancient artwork? Why don't people care about _____suffering? People *do* care, but theres only enough energy to go around. There are very dedicated groups for each of these, and veganism and animal rights concerns have exploded in the last century. Consider what I call the privilege of our own experience. No one else has lived your life. You've received an education in how to care about certain things more than others have. I used to have a really high bar for what I expected from people; we live in the information age, after all. What I've come to learn is that information may abound, but the tools and motivation to access are not evenly distributed. For example, I'm gay. This has motivated me to read up on gender and orientation a lot for the past 15 years. Back when I was just a confused ally, i was still an ally, but very uninformed. My heart was in the right place but I hadn't had the *experience* yet to motivate me to learn. Now I try to have a little more patience for people who are new to gender discussions, because they havent had the decade of unlearning I've had. Yes, Wikipedia is right there, but deprogramming takes time! Misinformation abounds, too. We get a lot of images of happy farm animals. We also have a culture of mythology assuming animals are happy in their roles, going back to Eden and God making animals for humans to eat. Even if most people arent religious, this 'appeal to nature' fallacy runs deep. When we go into the world, there are MANY things demanding our awareness and compassion. Consider a squirrel. Your mind is aware of many things happening around you, but if you were to focus on it all at once it would be overwhelming, ao your mind lets most of it go. If you are driving theres a squirrel in a tree, your mind will likely see it, but deprioritize it because driving is more important. People are stressed out. We are experiencing a global mental health crisis. Images of suffering are everywhere we look. Asking people to entirely turn over their diets, one of the most basic and routine aspects of life is a huge ask. This is even more imposing when we consider identity, one of the hardest things to change about ourselves. It's maladaptive, but meat is closely toed to nationality, masculinity, etc. Yes people *should* change, but asking people to change an identity is almost always percieved as an attack. We can help people by showing them the door, but we need to handle them with kid gloves. Once their identity is threatened, we lose the game.
IMHO, life is hard and most people have a limited bandwidth for empathy even with other humans. Most people are just in survival mode 90% of the time, and have never seen the meat your meat type expose videos of the horrific lives that these billions of factory "farmed" animals actually suffer. Plus, habits are hard to break esp once people are in their late 20's or 30's. Just look at US politics for example, we all have our tribes. We plant-based peeps are blessed to possess the empathy and to have made this change, for our own health, the environment, the suffering creatures, etc altho I suppose it is also a curse on some level. On a positive note, I just learned that RZA of the Wu Tang Clan has been vegan for 25 years. Great story in NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/climate/wu-tang-clan-rza-vegan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk0.zUco.14xHXUY0ohvc&smid=url-share (free gift link, should work).
I feel one day in later years to come, it will be looked back on as barbaric how we treat animals on mass to feed our self
I believe people don’t care because humans are an innately selfish species. They want what they want, consequences be damned. Obviously some of us have risen above this but I think most humans do not care about the plight of others unless and until it directly affects them. Sad but true.
Aren't all animals selfish? I don't think any of them care for other animals unless it helps them survive. In our case you can say we reached a point where we don't really need meat anymore. But I wouldn't call most animals not selfish.
There are multiple documented cases of non-human animals spontaneously helping other animals for no apparent gain. Of course, it's not necessarily the norm, but the capacity is there. I think altruistic behavior is something older than humanity. I also think it's possible it only exists because there is some net survival advantage. Nonetheless, the experience in the moment is one of helping another and expecting nothing back. Such behavior appears to have something like a dial that can be turned up or down in response to various pressures, but not always consciously. One philosophical argument you could make is that by becoming more conscious of all this, you have a greater ethical responsibility to set that dial at a higher level if you can handle it.
I mean humans also have multiple document cases of helping others for no reason. It is weird to call humans selfish and then say well some animals helped other a few times. Some philosopher also be claim that humans help other humans to feel better about them self. But I don't see how humans are some how more selifhs than other animals. I would really argue that almost every animal is selfish. Their top priority is for them to survive and to have offspring. Some animals do this by eating grass and avoiding "violence" others by eating animals. But both of them prioritize themself, and if themself and wouldn't mind if another animal thst they don't know gets hurt.
I'm not sure I got my point across. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, humans in general have a greater duty than other animals to consciously choose altruism. Like with nearly everything else, when we do it well, we do it better than all the rest. Many animals besides humans are capable of altruism, and we are all also capable of being selfish. In fact, selfishness is probably usually the default, yes. However, there is an argument to be made that it's often not the best available strategy, and that consciously choosing less selfish behavior could be better for everyone & everything in the long run in many situations.
I was commenting on him saying that humans are a selfish species. My point was all animals are selfish. I didn't say don't be Vegan, don't try to help or what ever. Not what I was talking about. Simply found his statement weird.
Not selfish in the sense that animals don't take any more than they need, and are designed to need, to survive. Unlike humans in their need to demonstrate status and acquire all the hallmarks of wealth- hence destroying nature and killing trillions of other living beings in the process in order to have more and do more. Animals are not selfish on anything near the same scale as humans. They are the original minimalists.
Animals still Hunt even when they are pets and fed well daily. House Cats , who are allowed to leave the house, are literally at fault for extension of certain birds. Like I am fine with you critizing humans, cause they technically are at this point quite advanced and can set no or less meat and etc. But I don't understand how you claim that animals are not selfish and only take what they need when this isn't the case. Isn't even the fact that they hunt other to survive them self a good example of selfishness? They don't care how the other animal do, aslong they are fine . Even when being pets they still don't care for animals outside of the circle they grew up with or live with.
I'm not sure using domesticated cats is a good example for what we are discussing. We have dominated nature and destroyed the natural habitat and lives of the animals we have now turned into pets. Their natural drive to hunt has been subverted. In nature big cats hardly move except to hunt, and only when they need to eat. We've taken that away from our cats. So no, they're not trying to take more than they need- they just had their entire way of life destroyed because of human civilization. They don't know why they hunt anymore- it is now a confusing and useless natural drive that serves the domesticated cat no purpose. They are just acting out an urge they can no longer fulfill. We did that to them.
I think you dont know yourself what you are arguing.
Orcas murder seals for fun and dolphins are sick little freaks. “Animals don’t take more than they need” is false. Animals will eat another animal’s food and then their food even if they’re disgustingly full. Many animals kill or play with their prey for fun. Kangaroos throw their own babies to the predators for a chance to escape. Most animals practice selfishness or cruelty, it’s not uniquely human whatsoever.
Because of the same mentality they used on slaves to justify it. "They're not humans and are not as important as us so their pains and suffering doesn't matter." It fuels entitlement over someone else. It's horrible but people really don't give a shit about animals. Some less then others but overall people don't give a shit
Two reasons. We generally don't care about suffering unless we can witness it. Sounds cold, but that's reality. Even for you I'm sure it's true. Like, Singer's paper alludes to that. We all have the choice to avoid vain luxuries and donate all of our excess wealth for charity but we don't. We buy iPhones, knowing that they surely have an element of child labor. We buy blood diamonds. We waste money on luxury brands, on nestle, on Saudi oil etc etc. It's out of sight out of mind for us tbh. Also the second reason is it's not usually an argument over morals between vegans and non-vegans, rather an argument over facts. Non-vegans don't co anthropomorphize animals at all. A cow being slaughtered, for most people, will be no different than a tree being cut.
I know this comment will probably be down voted to all hell but I want to share this as a non vegan. I view a cow being killed and eaten as a basic ritual of life with life sustaining life. Even though I eat meat, it bothers me if an animal is killed for no reason, but I can rationalize if it has a viable reason. An extreme example of this is a messed up video I found on the Internet of a few teens hunting down a cat to kill in Venezuela. I was bothered when I first started watching the video because like you said we anthropomorphize animals we don't eat, but when they started to cook and eat the cat I no longer felt like they were doing something wrong. They were sustaining themselves just like all life does. I don't think eating meat makes you a bad person. We can all agree factory farming is a gross extreme, but there are farms out there that don't operate at that massive scale and treat animals well.
The viable reason, in most cases, is "taste pleasure". Most people eat meat since it's the social norm and it tastes good. It might also be a bit more convenient than a plant based diet, although vegan products have been steadily rising the past few years. You don't **need** to eat meat. So the question arises, what makes "taste pleasure" so much more unique than other sorts of gratification? If animals are allowed to be factory farmed, selectively bred and massacred on a global scale for "taste pleasure*, why can't they be similarly treated for suppose "sexual gratification "? Or any sort of pleasure tbh, if we can skin them to make belts why can't I go and beat up a dog just because.
This willfully ignores that meat is very nutritional and has unique amino acids that your body needs. Trust me we didn't just start eating meat because of "taste pleasure". Animals provide nutrients to billions around the world and if everyone would switch to a vegan diet tomorrow we would definitely go into a famine very soon. I know it's not convenient but it is the world we live in. Meat is very nutrient dense and we use a lot of food waste from produce to feed those animals. We are legitimately already having a soil crisis across multiple continents that really needs to be addressed. Your comparisons are nonsensical.
I see. Then I guess it's just a disagreement over facts. Meat is nutritious, but a vegan based diet is just as much if not more. There are many papers on this topic which show that a plant based diet is not at all inferior. >Animals provide nutrients to billions around the world and if everyone would switch to a vegan diet tomorrow we would definitely go into a famine very soon. I know it's not convenient but it is the world we live in. Meat is very nutrient dense and we use a lot of food waste from produce to feed those animals. We are legitimately already having a soil crisis across multiple continents that really needs to be addressed. Your comparisons are nonsensical. I agree, but what you're resorting to is sunk cost fallacy. Basically, things are shit rn and you'd rather they stay shit than sacrifice in the short term for long term gain. You don't even want us to *move* in that direction. We're all well aware universal veganism is a fantasy, but that does not mean we cannot pave the way for future generations. Also, this reason doesn't explain why **you** are not vegan. Yes, legislation is required for a plant based diet, but what does that have to do with your personal choice for wanton animal abuse? You're eating meat not for the nutritional value nor for preventing global famine. You're eating meat for the **taste pleasure** it provides.
You keep mentioning taste pleasure, you must have loved the taste of meat or something. Meat has essential vitamins that cannot be found in a vegan diet. Quite comical that you dismiss eating meat for its nutrients, since that is legitimately the reason we eat. Get off your moral high horse. I've been to plenty of farms where the animals are not abused. You're trying to cling to extremes to suit your opinion. We can always do better moving forward, but that doesn't mean society should just stop eating meat because some people find it wrong. Hunting is also a great way to make sure the process is as humane as possible.
>It's really confusing What's confusing about it ? Other people feel differently from you, that's pretty normal. I ain't confused why people think that forcing an unconsenting individual to exist is OK, I think its disgusting, but that's just how many humans are. It is human nature to be a selfish unempathetic asshole.
People have been culturally conditioned (generally in western nations) to care about the lives of cats and dogs, but not about the lives of chickens, cows, goats, pigs, etc. The first group is seen as a companion, and the second group is seen as a product. That's why it's hard to get people to care, because of cultural pressure, tradition (everyone around you eats meat and dairy), and clever marketing by the meat and dairy industry with messages like "you must eat meat for protein" and "milk is good for your bones".
>animal rights masters degree Huh? A what now? >I don't believe it Willful ignorance, show them Dairy is Scary. >well these animals were bred for food You can use "well some dogs were bred for dogfighting, do you support that?" >Why can't animals have "some" protection in the farming industries? They do in some countries, just not the US. >who dictated that animal meat should be considered 'food' anyway Well humans are omnivorous and evolved to be able to hunt and eat meat. So that's why. Of course, we don't need to eat meat, but since we have been doing it, people continued and found a way to mass produce it.
I mean...people don't care about people, so...yeah.
Most people have a difficult time with empathy. You’d be hard pressed to find a random person in the street who actually/honestly cares about other PEOPLE, let alone animals. I mean, they all consider themselves “good people” but they probably haven’t given any thought to what that actually means. So, for many folks… you’re simply not going to get through to them. No matter how logical, rational, positive, kind, or factual you are, you’re not getting through. Thats a tough thing to realize, but it will help you stay sane in this crazy world. Personally, the most successful things I’ve seen (regarding change, and watching someone go vegetarian/vegan) is: 1) Vanity. If you have a magical secret that can make someone feel/look younger, sexier, healthier, have more energy, lose weight, and sleep better… they might listen. Veganisim offers all that, but you need to look like a good spokesperson by looking great too. 2) Taste. Learn to cook amazing food, and share it as often as possible. Don’t even mention it’s vegan, because if it’s good, they’ll ask you for the recipe, and THATS when you tell them it’s plant based. 3) Be a great spokesperson. People tend to gravitate toward smart, funny, interesting, attractive, and energetic folk. Be one of those people. When someone asks (and they will!) what your exercise, or diet routine is, explain that being vegan is your big secret. It sucks, but you’ll have WAY more success changing minds that way. I hate to say it, but the stereotypes about vegans (Bitter, angry, militant, irrational, weak, sickly, tired, depressed, humorless, etc) are often reinforced by the very same people who are trying to change hearts and minds… it’s counterproductive. It’s literally a marketing issue.
Honestly i believe the vegan movement picked between two losing battles. It can't possibly convince most of the consumers into veganism because meat is too plentifull and available, also would have to fight the propaganda the rich produce in order to mantain their businesses. It also can't convince or being more real, destroy the meat industry so that meat isn't even available for purchase,. Basically its a circlejerk movement that is morally and logically correct, but doesn't have the means of being successfull in its goals without becoming a radical movement.
Capitalism is all about exploiting bodies for profit. It's hard enough to build class consciousness and solidarity; the challenge of vegan leftists is to simultaneously build recognition that animal and human suffering are inextricable under capitalism.
... because they don't think human...
I legitimately grew up believing cows would be sad if you didn’t milk them. I’m not even kidding. I loooved cows as a kid. It took seeing to believing.
People are generally evil and selfish, we lie, cheat, flake, ignore etc; alot of people were bullies, and some still are as adults Most people are only decent because of laws and society, its bad to be racist in some areas so people arent racist and others are only decent cause of religion We live in a world of thoughts and prayers which is the most useless thing you could offer, its worse than offering nothing Holocaust was only stopped cause of a war, slavery the same thing at least in USA I decided i wanted to leave society and become a buddhist monk as i have accepted we are just an evil species for the most part, i spend most of my time by myself, i do volunteer so i talk with people for that, at some point i just want to live in a temple away from all the evil people When it comes to caring about people in dating, i feel its mostly selfish, i had no problem with caring for gals that werent interested in me, even if they had a partner already and had 0 interest in me, my feelings did not change for them, i would still help them and do things for them, if i did date a gal and she later told me she met a dude who made her happier, i would tell her to get with him as my only desire is that she be happy, when gals rejected me, i would offer to help them find a suitable dude that they would be interested in In my experience 99% of people do not behave this way in relationships, they want the partner and would do anything to not lose them because of how being with them makes themselves feel, they put their needs before their partners Ie; people are just always selfish
People don't care about animals because they don't even care about people.
What you are not understanding is that many people do not see animals as equivalent to humans and have no ethical issues keeping and eating animals. I'm the same, I have empathy and care about the wellbeing of my species, others are not particularly relevant to me.
People (including many but not all vegans) don’t really even get a shit about other HUMAN BEINGs. So I’m not surprised a lot of people can divorce their love of meat from how they feel about animals.
It’s about nuance. People can be animal lovers and also understand that animals provide us with food in a variety of ways. Also whole fat ice cream has tons of nutrients in it!
Question: If you think your friend is stupid and you openly look down on him, why are you friends with him?
>Today I was witnessing my friend eat ice cream and began telling him that many calves and cows have to die in order for us to eat any form of dairy. For those of you who like to argue vegans arent annoying and its meat eaters who bother you, remember this moment. These are the random unsolicited remarks people associate with you. >His other response was that "these animals were bred to be used for food" which to be is such a horrific thing to say about them. This is objectively true about almost everything we consume. From corn to bananas. This is called domestication. >We shouldn't be breeding animals for any reason much less food, and **these animals shouldn't even exist** and if they do they deserve a healthy decent life at the very least. Theres a chance many of us wouldnt be here today if we didnt domesticate dogs. Seriously. Not trolling. > I've heard many ignorant stupid people make comments such as "well these animals were bred for food." That makes zero sense You seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of domestication. These animals were very well bred for certain qualities that make them favorable to eat. Like being larger for example. We do this with crops too. The bananas we eat are much bigger than bananas in the wild. Not to mention you arent spitting out huge seeds every bite. >Who on earth would want "the real thing"- a real live dead animal I mean really? So people are so stupid they want to eat a living breathing animal rather than fake meat, and the idea of animal meat itself is pretty awful anyway. I cant talk about the earth, but I can talk about the USA. The answer is 91%. 91% would rather eat a living breathing animal. I got my numbers from [Statista](https://www.statista.com/topics/3377/vegan-market/#topicOverview). 4% of US is vegan, 5% vegetarian. >People just don't care about the welfare of these helpless animals and I know there are people that do but can anyone explain why these organizations aren't able to make any major changes in these stupid agricultural industries? Why can't animals have "some" protection in the farming industries? It's really confusing. It also sickens me that humans are just living their lives in peace eating away innocent animals who had to live the most horrific lives possible, and they just don't care about where their so-called 'food' came from. Also who dictated that animal meat should be considered 'food' anyway it makes zero sense to think that the bodies of living sentient creatures should be considered food for humans. You answered your own question. Most of us do not care, or not enough to change anything. Who dictated animal meat should be considered food? Nature did. Over 2 million years ago. Not some individual person. Humans all over the world with no contact with one another made animal meat a part of their diet. Its universal but it wasnt like an edict or anything. Thats where "hunter gatherer" and "nomadic" type terms for early humans come from. You see, societies needed domesticated animals to have farms big enough to sustain populations. Take oxen or donkeys for example. Afro-Eur-Asians domesticated these animals because they could pull carts full of produce versus humans simply back and fourth carrying what could fit in their hands or in primitive baskets or bags. You might really benefit from taking an anthropology course. A lot of your questions could be answered there. Before anyone jumps on the appeals to nature fallacy train, OP is asking questions about nature. So its supposed to be mentioned.
What do you do to actively decrease the effects of child labor in your life? What about female exploitation? That's how some people feel about animals. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/rights/child-labour-unicef-mines-amnesty-international-ilo/amp
> Today I was witnessing my friend eat ice cream and began telling him that many calves and cows have to die in order for us to eat any form of dairy. YTA. There is probably no moment when your friend would have been LESS open to hearing your concerns. Totally counterproductive. Just as vegans don't want to be hassled over what they eat, you are not moving anything forward by hassling others.
The fact people believe cows need to be milked is insane. I’ve had this conversation with women who have breastfed their children.
Another pet peeve of mine are all the “animal lovers” out there that eat meat…..
Why can't it be both? Do you like bunnies? Because bunnies get caught by machines when harvesting vegetables every single day. You must not care about them at all, by your own logic.
This is the most ridiculous argument.
Not at all. Either you care about every animal or you care about none, apparently
Willingly choosing to eat animals is different than animals dying during the process of farming. It’s completely different. This is a place to share opinions, if you are not vegan what are you doing in vegan threads besides trying to argue? ..
So those animals just don't matter then? Is that your honest opinion? Doesn't sound very vegan to me. Why are you in a vegan sub?
Get lost. I’m here to share opinions with like minded people.
No, you're here to spout nonsense into your echo chamber and to avoid questions that make you uncomfortable, have a good day.
Have a nice day
Thank you, and I will.
Oh you’re so right, dang my logic.
Also, animals love each other and eat meat. I don't think anyone gets to decide who loves what.
I’d guess for the same reason vegans don’t care about the plants
Animals are fed far more plants to grow them than if we just ate the plants directly. More than 80% of the world's soy is fed to cattle. Also, plants aren't sentient animals ya numnut.
Fabulous. How does this negate the lack of care for plants?
What are you even on about? I will try to make it simpler for you. a) Far less plants are used for a vegan diet so it's still better on this front. If you're complaining about this and still eat animal products, you're a gigantic hypocrite. b) Plants aren't sentient animals.
The title of the post is why don’t people care about animals. My answer is for the same reason vegans don’t care about plants. Your two responses don’t address this answer to the question at all. You have wasted both our time. Twice.
I think they did answer your question, bro…what are you confused about, sweetie?
I know they didn’t, sis…nothing at all, honey.
lol okay, since you actually seem to be dumb, plants are not sentient beings and therefore have less value than animals; y’know, the way you mow a lawn but wouldn’t run over your dog with a lawnmower, is that any more helpful, sir?
So when vegans say they care about life, they don’t actually mean it. Got it. ETA: non human animals aren’t sapient and therefore are valued less than humans. This is the argument you’re making about plants. Are you comfortable with this position?
They don’t say they care about life lmao that’s not a vegan tenant. They care about suffering ya dipshit. Like oh my god you GOT EM, they’re hypocrites because they take antibiotics wow. This fake argument you’re making is so terrible 😂
I don’t think they don’t but to get back to the sensitivity you have it is a lot of thing yo understand and change. You are fighting tradition and used. Imo more people will go vegetarians or vegan if you talk about eco friendly pre occupation
Because for most people meat in a store doesn’t remind them of animals. It’s neatly packed with maybe a picture of a smiling cow on it. Also there’s hardly ever visible blood in the package. People don’t know what stock breeding actually looks like. Or what goes on in a slaughterhouse. It’s easy to look away.
Because people suck. They have no morals and ethics. Most people barely care about others save for their families and close friends, how can you expect them to care about animals?
Have you seen how many birds get killed at the average almond farm? Or how many mice, rats, pigs, dogs, kangaroos, deer etc are either poisoned, ploughed or shot on the average grain or legume farm? Preaching not eating meat for humane reasons is hypocritical unless you are farming your food yourself or buying it from someone who you know doesn't kill animals. Good luck surviving the next mouse plague in that case too.
Boring argument. Animals are fed the vast majority of crops grown. So by eating animal products you pay for both far more crop deaths and the animal deaths themselves. This argument supports veganism which aims to cause as little harm to animals as practically possible.
There is such a thing as an animal law degree, and a humane degree. There is no such thing as a masters degree in animal rights. You literally made that up. Also, attacking people over ice cream is changing zero minds. If you’re gonna be passionate, do it with meat, ice cream isn’t the way to sway anybody.
[удалено]
That isn’t a degree in animal rights. It’s literally an animal law degree, which I already said exists. I love how the rules on civility in the sub only go one way.
Because people need food ass wipe. Such condescension. Gives vegan a bad rep.
People don’t need to torture animals for food though
That's kinda true, bunnies and rats that get caught in harvesters or crushed by tractors still die for food production
And that’s fucking awful, it’s something that we have to fix, but how does that justify torturing cows, pigs, chickens, or fish?
It's literally impossible to fix. We're destroying their natural habitat for personal gain. Are those the only animals you think humans eat?
It’s not impossible. But if you really care about bunnies and mice getting caught in harvesters then you’d also be against eating animals and animal products as far more crops needed to be harvested to feed animals in order to then feed humans. No, I understand that humans eat many more animals than the ones I’ve listed, do you want me to list them all or is it fine that I’ve included some of the most commonly slaughtered animals?
The only way it's possible is to go back to hand picking crops. Have you ever worked on a farm? When I was a teenager I worked on a farm for a few summers, when you hear screaming you hop off the tractor, grab a tool/weapon and put whatever was crushed out of its misery. The farm I worked on grew vegetables exclusively
Yes, I have, the same happens on arable farms, but I see my intuition was right that you don’t actually care about these animals, but about trying to justify torturing animals to be eaten
Torturing? No, that's a stretch to say the least.
Millions of chickens are boiled alive in scalding tanks - the USDA actually has data to track this. I would say that’s pretty clearly torture (I would genuinely be frightened if you think this is okay). Many sows spend their whole lives in pens so small they can’t turn around. Pigs are gassed in CO2 gas that gives them excruciating burns on all of their mucous membranes while suffocating them. They have their teeth pulled out without anesthesia. Male chicks are ground up alive. If this isn’t torture, what is? Again, if you care about animals getting crushed under tractors and harvesters, why aren’t you eliminating your consumption of animals since far more animals are killed this way in the process of growing feed for animals? I know why, because you never cared about these deaths in the first place, it’s just an empty whataboutism because you want to justify torturing animals. I implore you to see how awful these experiences are for farmed animals. Please, have some mercy for them
Unfortunately your approach is why vegans get such bad press.
TLDR. I care. But not enough and I’m hungry.
> I’m hungry. So eat something which doesn't require torture, suffering and death? Pretty obvious..
I have no idea why Reddit keeps recommending this sub to me, but I eat animals because I care about having a balanced diet.
Well I see animals as lesser beings so..
How does your judgement about their relative value justify the horrific levels of cruelty inflicted on them? You can have compassion for sentient beings even if you regard them as inferior.
Because he's probably a pos, that's why.
Then why are you in a vegan sub?
Got lost ig
They were literally just answering the question, why ask a question if you don't want the answer?
This sub is a echo chamber nothing more...nothing less.
Many people, including myself to some extent don’t care even about same humans dying of starvation, war, disease on the other side of the earth, or even in the same country and sometimes even justify their suffering
I mean every species only cares about the survival of its own species. We have man-made morals/ethics which we share to make the world a better place, and for many people, veganism is part of that. But they are still meaningless in the grand scheme of things so you can't expect everyone to abide by them. Others may feel forcing a cat to eat vegan cat food as opposed to tuna is unethical, but we can't all agree on everything.
TLDR: you shouldn't be doing that because of my feelings.
There are only so many hours in the day, and there are many many more important things to worry about
Eating animals for food is as natural as using your legs to walk. When you ask "who dictated eating animals". The answer is no one has to dictate. Humans and their ancestors decided for themselves and being the superior species we can hunt and eat other living beings. You could be presented with valid reasons and you'd pretty much still be in denial and say it makes zero sense to you. Which is fine, no one should have to convince you and seek your blessings to eat meat. Now if you'll excuse me I have to watch the YouTube channel "Latest Sighting" and see an innocent Impala lecture the crocodile on morality while it gets ripped apart alive in a peaceful way.
You can't expect everyone to care for every animals on earth especially the obscure ones. I only care for some animals and it's the most realistic thing to do. Oh no a group of sea sponges of the phylum whatever is being threatened by phylum neophytus sisipus phosphorus... Ok.
Dude… that was extremely petty of you. Ik your vegan but cows didn’t die to make ice cream…
It's not petty, it's the truth. And yes they did. What do you think happens to male calves and to mothers who can't provide enough milk?
Do some research into how the dairy industry works before you comment next time.
I don’t even care about the guy living down a block from me. I ain’t wasting no time thinking the cruelty that’s happening at a farm. I just eat what I like and if a million cows have to die for my steak, I don’t care.
You will quickly learn that A) most people will not stop eating meat, and B) vegans do not want to improve the lives of farm animals, they want people to stop eating animals products entirely (which will never happen and for good reasons).
You are the kind of vegan most people don’t like and actually hurt the cause more than you help ..
Why should they, humans are superior
As a non vegan willing to learn and consider my lifestyle I can say it’s the way you go about it. Trying to make someone feel like shit while they’re actively consuming an animal product is not the way to teach and has proven to not be effective time and time again. It just makes you look preachy and pushy.
Do you weep for the mice killed by the thresher? For the wasps that die to fertilize the figs? Do you weep for the grass you mow, the corn you eat? Life must consume life to live. Humanity has eaten meat since we rose from our first cradle; we are obligate omnivores, and we suffer when we remove meat from our diets. If you have not suffered, you are lucky- but we have evolved to be reliant on the iron we receive from meat. The cat eats the mouse, the bird eats the worm. Grass sends warning signals to other plants when cut. All life seeks to live, and all life must consume life to live.
Out of curiosity how is your oppinion on house animals, like cats. Also are you okay with them getting meat as food or not?
They don't care about their own lives, so why should we?
its this a troll post?