Truer words were never spoken! but availability was really bad, especially in COVID days when I did these. Finding one source with all the right capacitance values was hard enough. 400 and 250v were unobtainable at 33uf as far as I recall.
Maybe a little known (today) factoid is that you can take two polarized electrolytics and hook them up "backwards" in series (i.e. + to +) and you get a non-polarized capacitor half the value (so 2 68uf polarized caps end up being a 34uf non-p.) That's only 3% off target, well within normal tolerance spec. Voltage rating (for each) needs to be equal or greater than single original.
As an extremely green hobbyist, how would I begin to get into working on speakers and other components without royally screwing things up (Other than the common 'trial and error')? Everything seems very niche and specific.
LOL I used to joke (not *really* a joke) that I had to screw up a lot of my own equipment before being qualified to work on yours.
Back door street cred: Robots.txt off so if you back fully out you'll have to redo the link: http://www.braught.com/DomainCopy/ *not* mobile friendly, I wrote this w/DreamWeaver before Adobe ~18 years ago, before I shut down and moved.
Gateway? Mine was Ham/Commercial Radio, having to learn/*and understand* basic electricity/electronics before getting licensed. The ARRL Handbooks ~1980+ would give you a lot of good theory/practical exposure. I surely did a lot of experimentation... beyond Ohm's Law (and understanding the difference between frequency based reactance vs. DC resistance!) I eventually needed some basic test gear ("You'll need a good VOM to fix a broken VOM"" my quote) and, I *highly* depended on those folk that exhibited evident success in the "hifi hobby" (there are undubitably some here!)
Those of us that actually were fixing this stuff under factory warranty are unfortunately dying off. (In the USofA) there are still Hobbyist friendly/based companies (e.g. https://www.parts-express.com/) that help more than hurt (dollar grabbing.)
"Real" high end audio today kinda freaks me out, I thought we were well past putting direction arrows on speaker cables 40 years ago.
Wow. I appreciate your detailed response and everything you've done over the years helping others with your skillset(s). Perhaps I'll find just the right project speaker down the line that will jumpstart my tinkering. For now, I'm still just getting my feet wet in the hi-fi world.
Good luck ! Don't quit. I believe it will come back around to: an audio recording should say "Is it live, or is it Memorex?". Sharing music connects us.
IMO reproducing an audio recording *w/o headphones* is a necessity for all of us.
Start reading on basic circuit types so you can identify them in a schematic. Examples would be differential amplifiers (often used in preamps as the first stage), Darlington pairs and their similar circuits, voltage dividers, the difference between a VAS and a current amplifier, tone circuits, etc. Once you understand these, start trying to find them in schematics.
Read the old pioneer service manuals. They have basically a text book on their circuit designs, plus you can scroll up and ID the knowledge section on the schematic. Most service manuals will lack this, but the pioneer ones are basically a crash course on amplifier design.
Old and new are film. Modern ones are polypropylene so they're going to be larger but as others have pointed out, the voltage rating was way higher than I needed them to be because of supply woes 2-3 years ago.
>It looks like he replaced them with at least better ones.
Better in what way? Sonics? Tolerances? What makes one film cap better than another film cap in this application? Price?
>Plus it's good practice.
Why? If the component has failed, I agree, it's good to swap it out. But if it has not, especially since the original ones were perfectly fine film caps, why? It's never "good practice" to change something that's working and the old adage; *'if it ain't broken, don't fix it'* seems very appropriate in this case.
>Maybe not a giant waste of money.
It's giant, not because of the amount of money involved, but because precisely zero gain was achieved. But monetary wise, just that 33uf Solen cap is about 60 Euro for two and did - nothing.
>People pay a lot of money for better audio-grade caps, and the difference is audible in double-blind testing.
Link me one credible ABX test that can definitely, not just tell the *difference* between a generic 1€ Wima MKP cap to a boutique 200€ Mundorf MCap EVO Silver gold oil, but which one "sounds" *better*. Let me help you out; there is NONE.
>That's why people do it.
No, people do it because they're stupid and easily fooled. There are no measurable difference between these kind of electronic components and for that reason, they also don't sound better. This is true audiophoolery.
OP wasted about 200€ for no reason at all other than feeling good about it which, granted, is free for him do do. But don't tell an EE of 20 years that a capacitor "sounds better" than another unless it has failed electrically. That's simply not true.
Not to argue, just curious on your opinion. I am firmly in the camp that a wima doesn't sound worse than a boutique capacitor. I have used a few "fancy" capacitors before, but they were the ultra cheap $5 to $15 ones. I found no difference between them and an equivalent wima or other quality film cap.
So with that out of the way, is there an advantage to swapping electrolytic capacitors that have aged significantly? I worry about them being out of spec after that time period, but I have been told crossover electrolytic caps live a long time. Provided a new film cap fits properly, is there an advantage, disadvantage, or no change to swapping it?
>So with that out of the way, is there an advantage to swapping electrolytic capacitors that have aged significantly?
Sonically, no. But electrolytic capacitors have a tendency to degrade and leak the electrolyte and lose the capacitance. It's usually not a problem in everyday electronics and even less so in speaker networks. As long as the capacitance is at the rated level, the circuitry is functional.
>I worry about them being out of spec after that time period.
That's a good worry. The usual practise is to then measure the component and see if it's out of spec and if it is not, don't change it.
That old capacitors fail and change is however a known fact, it happens and I change capacitors in circuits everyday. Components have a life time limit just like everything else. But I do not change working components that are likely not to fail and I most certainly don't change working components for the purpose of sonic advantages - because that is Audiophoolery.
Makes sense to me. I prefer to at least recap vintage receiver electrolytics in the power supplies if I mess with them.
Some need a good bit more after testing caps from many, although certainly less than you have tested. I don't use fancy audio capacitors, just good brands and low signal loss for the signal path. And even the manual recommends low loss capacitors there. If there is room, I'll sometimes use a kemet or wima film for longevity.
Speakers don't seem like they are near the same stress and certainly less heat.
I've found bad caps that resemble the black ones with the red ends in some old Altec crossovers. I didn't cut them open to see what they were, but I wonder if they were nonpolar electrolytics.
Nearly all electrolytic capacitors has [one or both ends crimped](https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/mdl-18.jpg). The ones in the before picture are 100% film caps, likely MKT or similar polyester film variants. OP replaced perfectly good film caps for perfectly good film caps for 200 bucks and gained nothing. Each to his own though, I guess.
>I'm familiar with the typical nonpolar electrolytics.
Well, then you'd know that the capacitor you described is not the typical look of an electrolytic capacitor, but, in fact, the typical look of a film capacitor.
Listen, I'm not out to make you look bad, but... you're wrong.
So I did find a set of bipolar electrolytic capacitors that looked like a solid black tube with red end sealant. I don't think these are the same ones though. These were covered in writing. I believe OP's pic shows films.
>So I did find a set of bipolar electrolytic capacitors that looked like a solid black tube with red end sealant.
Ok. Picture?
>I believe OP's pic shows films.
They *are* indeed film caps.
Also, I work in science. I do not 100% know they are electrolytic, but I have a high belief they are not, hence not speaking in absolutes.
If they show up I will take a picture.
It was about a year ago. They just stuck out in my head as a weird thing to see. I went and dug around a little and didn't find them. Only two I've ever seen. Maybe I can locate an internet picture.
Can't even find a picture online. They looked like absolute garbage with no brand. Out of spec as well. They may have been immediately trashed.
No-one familiar with capacitors would confuse the ones in the OP for an electrolytic capacitor. They are film caps, okay? So, just stop.
Edit: Oh, no, he blocked me.
Sure, but I have not seen every type of capacitor in the world. A plastic tube with red gunk plugging the ends could contain anything... including paper-in-oil, according to this (same crossover I had to re-cap):
https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3951-Altec-crossover&s=36db3570d2f7c213ffeecf097fce378d&p=36574&viewfull=1#post36574
>A plastic tube with red gunk plugging the ends could contain anything.
It contains foil. It's a film cap! The "red gunk" is epoxy, sealing the foil from air. ALL film caps have this. NONE of the electrolyte caps have it.
Most important question: do you hear any difference?
I did'n notice any difference when I replaced mine for film in Cabasse Challoupes, pretty dissapointed.
I’ve done crossover upgrades like this before
And I noticed a difference sonically. Not night and day but it was a modest improvement- so yes it was worth doing for me.
Boutique caps are interesting to say the least. Cheap to modest prices capacitors are normally half the size of the caps they replaced (at least in 60s-70s gear.
Along comes Mr. $20 cap that is way too big. Reminds me of the bottle head crack builds you can find. They absolutely stuff the underside. Maybe the difference is there, but I'm a strong believer in diminishing returns
Absolutely agree, and I really have only used boutique for crossovers. I've used the Solen, Dayton, and Clarity before and I don't see the price of these as outrageous and I have always been pleased with them. Could a 4$ cap do the same as the 16$ Clarity? Very possibly, even likely. I have too many projects I want to get to to experiment so I'm happy to troll forums and go with what people who have experimented like.
Now given that there are individual 80$+ caps available...then we're in full-on voodoo territory.
No harm in giving it a go. I used Dayton caps for crossovers in the past but even those are starting to become stupid expensive.
I just replaced every capacitor in two monoblocks and mono preamps. Close to 75 caps between the 4 pieces and I doubt I paid much more than $60 and I have a shit ton of leftovers for future projects.
If I ever get to the point that I have a system that I know is end game, I may change my mind though. I go through systems like I do underwear.
Stumbled on a picture from when I recapped my Polk 10As. It took some negotiating to get them back in without modifying the back panel. I did have to move the inductor closer to the edge and eliminate one board clip but they went in. Stay safe out there.
I recently recapped my 10a’s with 400v Jantzens and had similar size issues. Just had to be creative like you were to get them in. I was amazed how much of an improvement it brought. I’ve recapped several speakers and these showed the most improvement of anything I upgraded.
This did nothing. It's one thing to replace 40 year old failing electrolytes, but those are all film caps and all you accomplished here is losing money.
For future reference when this post inevitably shows up on Google searches; if you insist on rebuilding a speaker network:
* Never touch the coils, it's just copper and nothing you will do will ever improve anything
* Same with resistors, it's not going to improve anything - don't touch them
* Only put film caps in the signal path, parallel caps can still be non-polar electrolytic, like Mundorf E-Cap
* The ONLY improvement beyond replacing failing components you can expect to see is matching the components, and that's very slight. This isn't magic. Don't waste your money!
or don't pick the 630V types... :')
Truer words were never spoken! but availability was really bad, especially in COVID days when I did these. Finding one source with all the right capacitance values was hard enough. 400 and 250v were unobtainable at 33uf as far as I recall.
Maybe a little known (today) factoid is that you can take two polarized electrolytics and hook them up "backwards" in series (i.e. + to +) and you get a non-polarized capacitor half the value (so 2 68uf polarized caps end up being a 34uf non-p.) That's only 3% off target, well within normal tolerance spec. Voltage rating (for each) needs to be equal or greater than single original.
As an extremely green hobbyist, how would I begin to get into working on speakers and other components without royally screwing things up (Other than the common 'trial and error')? Everything seems very niche and specific.
LOL I used to joke (not *really* a joke) that I had to screw up a lot of my own equipment before being qualified to work on yours. Back door street cred: Robots.txt off so if you back fully out you'll have to redo the link: http://www.braught.com/DomainCopy/ *not* mobile friendly, I wrote this w/DreamWeaver before Adobe ~18 years ago, before I shut down and moved. Gateway? Mine was Ham/Commercial Radio, having to learn/*and understand* basic electricity/electronics before getting licensed. The ARRL Handbooks ~1980+ would give you a lot of good theory/practical exposure. I surely did a lot of experimentation... beyond Ohm's Law (and understanding the difference between frequency based reactance vs. DC resistance!) I eventually needed some basic test gear ("You'll need a good VOM to fix a broken VOM"" my quote) and, I *highly* depended on those folk that exhibited evident success in the "hifi hobby" (there are undubitably some here!) Those of us that actually were fixing this stuff under factory warranty are unfortunately dying off. (In the USofA) there are still Hobbyist friendly/based companies (e.g. https://www.parts-express.com/) that help more than hurt (dollar grabbing.) "Real" high end audio today kinda freaks me out, I thought we were well past putting direction arrows on speaker cables 40 years ago.
Wow. I appreciate your detailed response and everything you've done over the years helping others with your skillset(s). Perhaps I'll find just the right project speaker down the line that will jumpstart my tinkering. For now, I'm still just getting my feet wet in the hi-fi world.
Good luck ! Don't quit. I believe it will come back around to: an audio recording should say "Is it live, or is it Memorex?". Sharing music connects us. IMO reproducing an audio recording *w/o headphones* is a necessity for all of us.
Start reading on basic circuit types so you can identify them in a schematic. Examples would be differential amplifiers (often used in preamps as the first stage), Darlington pairs and their similar circuits, voltage dividers, the difference between a VAS and a current amplifier, tone circuits, etc. Once you understand these, start trying to find them in schematics. Read the old pioneer service manuals. They have basically a text book on their circuit designs, plus you can scroll up and ID the knowledge section on the schematic. Most service manuals will lack this, but the pioneer ones are basically a crash course on amplifier design.
Thank you so much!
Oh I forgot, for speakers you probably want to add [crossover ](https://education.lenardaudio.com/en/06_x-over.html) study to that list.
This is actually an awesome tip!
Wtf, that’s wild. Cap wizardry.
Were the caps in the original crossover even electrolytics? They don’t look like it.
Old and new are film. Modern ones are polypropylene so they're going to be larger but as others have pointed out, the voltage rating was way higher than I needed them to be because of supply woes 2-3 years ago.
They look like non-polarized electrolytics to me.
They were all film caps, probably polyester foil. No leakage, no drift. This was a giant waste of money.
Maybe you're right. Maybe not a giant waste of money. It looks like he replaced them with at least better ones. Plus it's good practice.
>It looks like he replaced them with at least better ones. Better in what way? Sonics? Tolerances? What makes one film cap better than another film cap in this application? Price? >Plus it's good practice. Why? If the component has failed, I agree, it's good to swap it out. But if it has not, especially since the original ones were perfectly fine film caps, why? It's never "good practice" to change something that's working and the old adage; *'if it ain't broken, don't fix it'* seems very appropriate in this case. >Maybe not a giant waste of money. It's giant, not because of the amount of money involved, but because precisely zero gain was achieved. But monetary wise, just that 33uf Solen cap is about 60 Euro for two and did - nothing.
Sonically, yes. People pay a lot of money for better audio-grade caps, and the difference is audible in double-blind testing. That's why people do it.
>People pay a lot of money for better audio-grade caps, and the difference is audible in double-blind testing. Link me one credible ABX test that can definitely, not just tell the *difference* between a generic 1€ Wima MKP cap to a boutique 200€ Mundorf MCap EVO Silver gold oil, but which one "sounds" *better*. Let me help you out; there is NONE. >That's why people do it. No, people do it because they're stupid and easily fooled. There are no measurable difference between these kind of electronic components and for that reason, they also don't sound better. This is true audiophoolery. OP wasted about 200€ for no reason at all other than feeling good about it which, granted, is free for him do do. But don't tell an EE of 20 years that a capacitor "sounds better" than another unless it has failed electrically. That's simply not true.
>Link me one credible ABX test... Crickets.
Not to argue, just curious on your opinion. I am firmly in the camp that a wima doesn't sound worse than a boutique capacitor. I have used a few "fancy" capacitors before, but they were the ultra cheap $5 to $15 ones. I found no difference between them and an equivalent wima or other quality film cap. So with that out of the way, is there an advantage to swapping electrolytic capacitors that have aged significantly? I worry about them being out of spec after that time period, but I have been told crossover electrolytic caps live a long time. Provided a new film cap fits properly, is there an advantage, disadvantage, or no change to swapping it?
>So with that out of the way, is there an advantage to swapping electrolytic capacitors that have aged significantly? Sonically, no. But electrolytic capacitors have a tendency to degrade and leak the electrolyte and lose the capacitance. It's usually not a problem in everyday electronics and even less so in speaker networks. As long as the capacitance is at the rated level, the circuitry is functional. >I worry about them being out of spec after that time period. That's a good worry. The usual practise is to then measure the component and see if it's out of spec and if it is not, don't change it. That old capacitors fail and change is however a known fact, it happens and I change capacitors in circuits everyday. Components have a life time limit just like everything else. But I do not change working components that are likely not to fail and I most certainly don't change working components for the purpose of sonic advantages - because that is Audiophoolery.
Makes sense to me. I prefer to at least recap vintage receiver electrolytics in the power supplies if I mess with them. Some need a good bit more after testing caps from many, although certainly less than you have tested. I don't use fancy audio capacitors, just good brands and low signal loss for the signal path. And even the manual recommends low loss capacitors there. If there is room, I'll sometimes use a kemet or wima film for longevity. Speakers don't seem like they are near the same stress and certainly less heat.
I have never seen an electrolytic, polarized or otherwise, that looks like that. They look like film caps.
I've found bad caps that resemble the black ones with the red ends in some old Altec crossovers. I didn't cut them open to see what they were, but I wonder if they were nonpolar electrolytics.
Nearly all electrolytic capacitors has [one or both ends crimped](https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/mdl-18.jpg). The ones in the before picture are 100% film caps, likely MKT or similar polyester film variants. OP replaced perfectly good film caps for perfectly good film caps for 200 bucks and gained nothing. Each to his own though, I guess.
I'm familiar with the typical nonpolar electrolytics. I just figured it could be possible to seal two back-to-back polar caps in a tube like that.
>I'm familiar with the typical nonpolar electrolytics. Well, then you'd know that the capacitor you described is not the typical look of an electrolytic capacitor, but, in fact, the typical look of a film capacitor. Listen, I'm not out to make you look bad, but... you're wrong.
So I did find a set of bipolar electrolytic capacitors that looked like a solid black tube with red end sealant. I don't think these are the same ones though. These were covered in writing. I believe OP's pic shows films.
>So I did find a set of bipolar electrolytic capacitors that looked like a solid black tube with red end sealant. Ok. Picture? >I believe OP's pic shows films. They *are* indeed film caps.
Also, I work in science. I do not 100% know they are electrolytic, but I have a high belief they are not, hence not speaking in absolutes. If they show up I will take a picture.
It was about a year ago. They just stuck out in my head as a weird thing to see. I went and dug around a little and didn't find them. Only two I've ever seen. Maybe I can locate an internet picture. Can't even find a picture online. They looked like absolute garbage with no brand. Out of spec as well. They may have been immediately trashed.
No-one familiar with capacitors would confuse the ones in the OP for an electrolytic capacitor. They are film caps, okay? So, just stop. Edit: Oh, no, he blocked me.
Sure, but I have not seen every type of capacitor in the world. A plastic tube with red gunk plugging the ends could contain anything... including paper-in-oil, according to this (same crossover I had to re-cap): https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3951-Altec-crossover&s=36db3570d2f7c213ffeecf097fce378d&p=36574&viewfull=1#post36574
>A plastic tube with red gunk plugging the ends could contain anything. It contains foil. It's a film cap! The "red gunk" is epoxy, sealing the foil from air. ALL film caps have this. NONE of the electrolyte caps have it.
Most important question: do you hear any difference? I did'n notice any difference when I replaced mine for film in Cabasse Challoupes, pretty dissapointed.
I’ve done crossover upgrades like this before And I noticed a difference sonically. Not night and day but it was a modest improvement- so yes it was worth doing for me.
There was definitely a difference. Especially when you've been listening to the same speakers for 5 years, you know what they sound like.
Maybe don't use overkill components.
Well where is the fun in that?
Boutique caps are interesting to say the least. Cheap to modest prices capacitors are normally half the size of the caps they replaced (at least in 60s-70s gear. Along comes Mr. $20 cap that is way too big. Reminds me of the bottle head crack builds you can find. They absolutely stuff the underside. Maybe the difference is there, but I'm a strong believer in diminishing returns
Absolutely agree, and I really have only used boutique for crossovers. I've used the Solen, Dayton, and Clarity before and I don't see the price of these as outrageous and I have always been pleased with them. Could a 4$ cap do the same as the 16$ Clarity? Very possibly, even likely. I have too many projects I want to get to to experiment so I'm happy to troll forums and go with what people who have experimented like. Now given that there are individual 80$+ caps available...then we're in full-on voodoo territory.
No harm in giving it a go. I used Dayton caps for crossovers in the past but even those are starting to become stupid expensive. I just replaced every capacitor in two monoblocks and mono preamps. Close to 75 caps between the 4 pieces and I doubt I paid much more than $60 and I have a shit ton of leftovers for future projects. If I ever get to the point that I have a system that I know is end game, I may change my mind though. I go through systems like I do underwear.
Yes, most receivers I recap are in the 40-50$ range for the whole shebang using the good stuff. Cheap thrills. It's all in good fun.
Stumbled on a picture from when I recapped my Polk 10As. It took some negotiating to get them back in without modifying the back panel. I did have to move the inductor closer to the edge and eliminate one board clip but they went in. Stay safe out there.
Well done.
I recently recapped my 10a’s with 400v Jantzens and had similar size issues. Just had to be creative like you were to get them in. I was amazed how much of an improvement it brought. I’ve recapped several speakers and these showed the most improvement of anything I upgraded.
This did nothing. It's one thing to replace 40 year old failing electrolytes, but those are all film caps and all you accomplished here is losing money. For future reference when this post inevitably shows up on Google searches; if you insist on rebuilding a speaker network: * Never touch the coils, it's just copper and nothing you will do will ever improve anything * Same with resistors, it's not going to improve anything - don't touch them * Only put film caps in the signal path, parallel caps can still be non-polar electrolytic, like Mundorf E-Cap * The ONLY improvement beyond replacing failing components you can expect to see is matching the components, and that's very slight. This isn't magic. Don't waste your money!
I would of used mundorf plain electrilityic caps of same value, there cheap and really good.
I tried an infinity /monster from the RS 4001, I gave up and had a qualified tech do it. Not as heavy as it sounds
My next project. But, mine are simple ARx. I'm restoring a pair that I grabbed on ebay.
You're at max CAPacity there
Those new ones are crazy big, but if they are electrically correct compared to the original then that's a good thing as well.
The difference in sound is more replacing old caps than fancy caps.