The weirdest part is when religious scholars were first exempted, the exemption only applied to like 400 persons
Now they are 13% of Israel which is wild
It’s causing a demographic crisis. The ultra religious are significantly out reproducing the secular population. Like any society ultra religious breed like rabbits
It’s almost as if the more educated you are (western education/higher education) the less inclined you are to have 7 children where you sacrifice your job, personal time, hobbies, money etc.
Well, it's also that Israel encourages it with financial benefits and while it doesn't really 'break even' for most families, it's very significant for ultra-orthodox families in which the males aren't working and live on special governments brib- uh... Benefits
Same applies to America. Many uneducated, low income families will continue to have kids knowing they can’t afford them but the government will pay them $800 more a month for another kid. They don’t care the child has to share a bed with their sibling in a room with 4 other kids, while sharing clothes and going to sleep hungry.
This idea that "welfare queens" have multiple kids for a marginal support gain in America is based mainly on a gross misunderstanding of the circumstances of poor women at best and a racist myth at worst.
First, the primary driver of most modern poor families is the lack of access to medical reproductive services. There are exceptions, of course, but it's far from many.
Second, almost no state welfare programs have worked like that since the 1990s. At the federal level, welfare assistance for multiple children was capped after 3 children. Some states, like California, have partially reversed this in the last decade at the state level, but it still is a diminishing returns situation.
Third, and obviously, keeping another child even vaguely in a state that all but the most negligent CPS agent would allow for takes far more than $600 a month.
Sources
PBS: From Mother's Pensions to Welfare Queens: Debunking the Myth about Welfare.
[https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/from-mothers-pensions-to-welfare-queens-debunking-myths-about-welfare/](https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/from-mothers-pensions-to-welfare-queens-debunking-myths-about-welfare/)
Interesting because actual government reposts state otherwise: https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/welfare-mothers-potential-employees-statistics-profile-based-national-survey-data-0
https://www.newamerica.org/weekly/rise-and-reign-welfare-queen/
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/scott-w-stern-covid-19-and-welfare-queens/
I’m not saying they view having kids as a source of income. I’m simply stating that the majority of the time they don’t care about the outcome of their children and get blinded by the fact that the government sends them free money every month. To the point that If another pops out randomly it’s not a big deal or even a blessing. When you have people with PHDs afraid to have kids because of the impact of climate change.
It's worth noting that I said \*since\* the 1990s after the reforms passed (under the Clinton Administration). Your government report is from before 1992. I am confident that you didn't closely read the New America article, as it supports what I am saying by showing how the reforms created a bright poverty line for welfare and a system that automatically assumes the worst about applicants and is set up to deny them.
Crazy cause the stats and research say otherwise. Women with poor education and little career prospects don't have many other goals in life other than being a mother. Women with higher education degrees are not only more independent but have more opportunities for leading a productive life.
Educated women provide better care for their children which increases the value of their children’s human capital which in turn decreases the need for having more. And this isn’t even mentioning the many other reasons educated women (in the west) don’t want more kids: worries about climate change and the impact of bringing another life into the world, worries about passing on mental disease, birth control being more accessible to educated women, etc.
Educated people have children later to pay off their debt/maximise their career/anything else similar.
You're making it sound as if anyone with 2 or 3 kids is a religious hick.
Perhaps you should read a more in-depth study where it is found that if you have one child, you are more likely to have more. In fact, the % of people with more than one child is more or less constant, what is increasing is people with 0 children - the reasons are overwhelmingly economical.
People don't have children if they can't have them responsibly.
And that is tragic.
And they don't work or contribute to their society either but expect the wife to reproduce and work constantly to support their "studies" because it's a "higher calling"
Not really. This is mostly due to the fact that the exemption was increased to cover a much higher % of the Haredi population. You are conflating the total size of the Haredi population, with the total number of Haredi people who are exempt from military service at any given time (that's what the original 400 number refers to). The latter group is currently about 60k, not 1.3 million.
They aren't going to the combat jobs even if they do draft. They'll probably full up the lines in combat support fixing equipment, logistics and desk work most likely. Nobody ends up in combat in the IDF who isn't willing to, or at least apathetic.
You're hilarious, man.
To fix equipment and do desk jobs you need to know stuff, from operating ms office to more skilled labour.
These are graduates of religious schools that don't teach basic maths or even prepare them for independence in the world outside of their cults.
I assume that they're going to spend a lot of time learning primary school stuff first, in the IDF
>These are graduates of religious schools that don't teach basic maths or even prepare them for independence in the world outside of their cults.
False.
The IDF trains you from zero. You dont need to know anything about the role.
For some roles, sure. For others, like the one I did 20 years ago, it had a pre requisite of me being certified practical engineer and had a pre-recruitment course, all for servicing machinery. There are many such roles, you're just not as aware as you think you are
yes but I think he means when you are 18 you should already have a basic grasp of how to use a computer, most people already have driver licenses etc... its going to much harder and wasteful to teach someone how to do a desk job if they don't know how to operate basic stuff
IDF trains you from 'reasonably basic competence' to 'modern soldier'.
You can't turn someone who doesn't know basic math into a competent modern soldier unless you're scrapping the barrel (and at that point you've got *problems*) and you absolutely need a gun in human hands. It's just not going to work.
Eh most likely will be combat, they're getting drafted cus there aren't enough combat soldiers. And while they don't trust the charedim to want to draft or believe in the value of the army, the ones who draft instead of going to jail can be trusted not to sabotage anything once they're already there.
Lol no they are not getting drafted because there arent enough combat soldiers. Stop making shit up if you dont know anything on the matter. They are being drafted because its mandetory for everyone - there were protests for 9 months prior to the war for a variety of reasons and the haredi draft was one of them, because they do not share the load currently and are leeching on the country without giving anything back
I'm married to a combat soldier and have multiple brothers and cousins in the idf- I'm just saying what the common knowledge of people in combat in the idf is. The ramatkal (head commander of the army) recently said that there aren't enough combat soldiers.
I'm making 0% of this up. The charedim not drafting has been an issue for years, the lack of combat soldiers is just the last straw
Most IDF soldiers arent combative soldiers.
Combat training takes up to a year, so even if there was combat shortage (there isn't) they will not be filling the ranks.
Good for them. It Religion is driving half the problem over there anyways, make the 'exempt' ones understand what everyone else has to go through.
> while the Haredim have said they will quit if the government fails to pass legislation to prevent the draft.
adios free loaders.
>But the politically powerful Haredim, who make up roughly 13% of Israeli society, have traditionally received exemptions if they are studying full-time in a yeshiva or religious seminary. The exemptions — and the government stipends many yeshiva students receive through age 26 — have infuriated the wider general public.
I would be pisssed too if I was there general public.
From what I have learned from friends who lived in Israel for some time., the one thing that unites the left and the right in Israel is their absolute disdain for the ultra-religious. They are seen as only causing problems for everyone while doing fuck-all to contribute to society.
A lot of groups can have political power far beyond their size if they are able to play kingmaker. Coalition governments can often be at the total mercy of their weakest party.
While not untrue about many groups of people, your comment did make me remember a story about the last two Jews in Afghanistan. They *really* didn’t like each other, lol.
https://www.jta.org/2019/10/31/global/the-last-jews-in-afghanistan-argued-so-much-the-taliban-kicked-them-out-of-prison-and-stole-their-torah
Nah. No one cares that they're jews. They could be atheists, muslims, or anything else and it'll still be the same.
People hate the fact that all they do is read the bible every day all day. Most of them don't work, don't learn a profession, don't serve, and don't master anything that is useful to the country and the people.
Meaning that they have zero contribution to the country, despite being a 1/8 of its population. The secular and non-ultra religious public protects them, work for them, and pays for them for no gain. For years!
When you tell them they have to change and do their part for the coubtry, they start screaming, yelling and becoming violent. We don't need people like them, jews or not.
The political consequences of this will be very interesting. January last year:
>The incoming government has proposed a broad range of measures to benefit the Haredi population, including increasing stipends for seminary students, which may disincentivize Haredi men from entering the workforce.
>[Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredim-are-fastest-growing-population-will-be-16-of-israelis-by-decades-end/)
Hopefully forced exposure to the outside world will help counter the brainwashing.
If it’s anything like post graduate school, we got stipends in the STEM fields to study. We had to usually teach in addition to our own research to do that, but we did get paid enough to live to go to school.
this is a long standing debate in Israeli politics. Currently the orthodox are exempt from mandatory service, which was argued for a long time by the rest of the population as an unjustified thing since the rest need to serve and exempting this large part if the population forces the rest to have a longer mandatory service.
since netanyahu heavily relies in the orthodox parties in order to keep his PM seat, this subject was kind of always suppressed (was still a vocal debate, but was never fairly voted on), and every few years they legislated a bill that exempts the orthodox from service for the next few years. this bill has now, for the first time in decades, reached his expiration without renewal and that's what were seeing being talked about for the last month or so.
this is a literal wildcard, most of israelis have just accepted the exemption as something that will always happen, so its very interesting to see what happens next, with the expectation that if the army goes through with it, there would be very violent protests by the orthodox.
Everyone likes to say they don't accept inequality (But you'll have to ask them to define inequality), but actually sticking necks out is gonna be an ask - regardless of the population.
This is really good news. I think this will in the long run help deradicalize Israel. It'll weaken the fringes and bring the government more towards the center of political opinion.
Real grunt work both humbles and teaches most people.
Maybe just maybe, these religious radicals will both better appreciate the role of the IDF in Israel, learn some secular aka real world responsibility, and understand the actual limitations of supporting the endless military occupation in the West Bank. One can only hope.
Or, you'll introduce fanaticism to less fortunate populations.
Hope that the command is willing to grind their fanaticism out of them and keep it out of more susceptible minds.
Fucking finally. Those fuckers are such a tiny fraction in Israel but they dictate almost everything and getting insane budgets that secular people don't.
It's 1 in 8, which isn't a small amount of a community, especially if they act in a concerted fashion. As a comparison, it's roughly equal to the population of African Americans in the US.
Aren’t they badly educated? In the US the Haredi men don’t learn any living skills, they just learn to read Torah. The women are taught things like computer skills so they can get jobs.
They're not a monolith and very much depends on which community.
Maybe of them have very good primary education until 12th grade - they study math and other subjects in addition to religious studies.
Many of the men don't continue with college Or uni as they go to seminaries full time instead. Not all, and many men do work but typically in less higher education requiring roles.
Imagine a bit of the 'classic' 1950 gender roles, except the women work, and the men study, and household work is either divided or falls more to the woman in some cases.
This is a falsehood largely propagated by antisemites.
Haredim absolutely are educated, just as well as any other person.
Yeshivas tend to begin classes at ~8AM and finish at ~5pm for elementary and high school, for example, because Torah study is always in *addition* to secular education subjects, not in place of them.
Sorry, but no. Torah study (at least in Israel) is not in addition to secular study in Haredi schools.
In Israel we have a separate Bagrut (highschool diploma requirement) for Haredi schools. They teach core subjects (that includes math and English only up to a certain point) unlike secular or religious non-haredi schools that teach them all the way to graduation.
Perhaps they are an Ultra Orthodox from Tel Aviv and think that it's the same everywhere in Israel because they never bothered to go to the more extreme areas?
On a separate note, I find it absolutely hilarious that within the Israeli education system, the Arabic bagrut is the most secular bagrut the state offers! In Hebrew studying Torah texts is a requirement (and depending on the teacher can be "literature only" or "this is the holy text!") while in Arabic there is absolutely zero religious stuff required for Bagrut.
A friend of mine dated a Haredi man briefly and said he had roughly a 5th grade education. They definitely do exist, but they’re a very rare extreme fringe.
What do you mean dated? Like met through a matchmaker?
Haredi people don’t date in the traditional sense. You meet to discuss marriage a few times, and make a call. It would be odd to be dating since that really isn’t part of how religious Jewish courtship works.
I speak as someone who grew up in both a haredi and modern orthodox community.
I’m not sure exactly how it happened, I haven’t pressed my friend on that. My assumption is that he was in the process of leaving the haredi community, but my friend did grow up orthodox so shidduch is possible (I just don’t think she was still orthodox at that point, and I don’t think any matchmaker would set a PhD student up with a man with only a 5th grade education)
Oh there are definitely *some* that are like that. (Many of them are protesting against the war). But the *vast* majority are as educated as anyone else. Yeshivas both in the US and Israel (and, presumably, other countries, though I have no personal experience with those) are generally what you would expect from a private school in terms of education. Fairly high quality teachers, small class sizes, etc.
Edit: There's also the simple fact that while they may receive the education, they might "toss" it once their schooling is over. Calculus is only useful in Torah study to a point.
Speaking as someone who went to a yeshiva in the US, that’s simply not true.
My yeshiva did whatever they could to do the absolute minimum. Other yeshivas in my town were the same. Mere lip service was paid to secular education.
There are other Jewish religious schools, usually more prep schools, which are expensive and excellent. Those are nothing like Haredi yeshivas.
We didn’t teach calculus in high school at all. What you describe is not reflective of what a Haredi community in the US is like.
I ended up getting a GED, going to a four year college, and leaving the religion. My high school education was absolutely garbage and I had to teach myself algebra and pre calculus before I could take calculus in college.
It’s a disgrace and disservice to the students. It’s designed to keep you in.
They're not that different. There are a few very small groups that are uneducated or don't take their secular education seriously, but the vast majority are not like that.
Source: Am Orthodox with some Haredi family and friends in both the US and Israel. One of my close childhood friends is studying to be the next great *posek* (essentially one of the authorities on Torah law) in Israel right now. He was an AP student in every secular subject IIRC.
You're the one propagating the falsehood. I was Haredi and the people you're talking about are not Haredi. Even the most open of the hasidic groups (Lubavitch) aren't particularly fond of or good at providing their kids secular education. Not sure what your agenda is here, but it's an outright lie.
This is not true.
Source: I went to a yeshiva in America.
We did the bare minimum to meet state requirements. Gym class? You play outside at lunch. Music? We sing at prayer time.
My ethics was good in that they made an effort to meet state minimums. In many hardi communities, you won’t even learn English to a conversational level. It would be Yiddish.
More moderate Jews, even modern orthodox, tend to be highly educated. But you are wrong that this is a false hood, or anti semetic, it’s a problem.
Insular religious communities, Jewish or not, propagate all sorts of abuses to keep people trapped.
I left the religion, went to college, and am no longer religious. I’m one of the lucky ones.
The women are about as educated as the other populace is Israel, which is a bit higher than the OECD average (or something similar). The men are roughly 50% Amish Jews with 0 skills outside reading the Torah, 40% who have normal jobs, and 10% who leave the Haredi lifestyle but are still counted as Haredim. They can afford so many children because their children (usually the girls) raise the other children, and have an average of 6.1 children per woman. Notably the average is slightly higher in the USA (6.7), and less people leave the Haredi lifestyle in the USA
No they really aren’t. They don’t know anything about math, science or the English language, not even the ABC. They women do get an education and many times higher education too so they can go work “regular” jobs and professions.
This obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, but it is a large majority of ultra orthodox.
This is absolutely not true. Haredim learn the same subjects everyone else does in addition to their Torah studies. It's hard for non-Orthodox Jewish people to picture it, but for most heavy or ultra-Orthodox people, learning isn't just something they do at school. It's their hobby and (if they stay in that life) their passion. They aren't playing video games or watching TV when they come home from school, they're learning more.
What are you basing your comment on? This is widely discussed in Israel. There is a great opposition among the Haredi community to learning LIBA studies (math, English, science etc), some government were toppled over this issue. People who leave ultra orthodox life routinely lament their lack of general education outside of Torah studies, and there is available statistics showing their ignorance in those subjects.
I'll just repost from another reply:
>Source: Am Orthodox with some Haredi family and friends in both the US and Israel. One of my close childhood friends is studying to be the next great posek (essentially one of the authorities on Torah law) in Israel right now. He was an AP student in every secular subject IIRC.
What the statistics don't say is that you can't get someone to *care* about education if they don't want to. They definitely do get educated in secular studies, but there are absolutely a large number that don't care enough to keep with it and don't use it enough to retain it.
That's an entirely different problem, though. One that mandatory drafting and, hopefully, fewer workforce exemptions will address.
Secular children also don’t care about education many times :) but it’s not a choice for them. They must go to school and most study these subjects, and that’s the real difference.
No, it's not. Haredim still learn secular subjects, as I said. They *also* learn Torah. The majority of their schooling time is in Torah study, as is a large part of their after-school time, but they absolutely do learn secular subjects.
The minimums are to address the fringe that do actively discourage secular education, but they are a *very* small minority. One that definitely has too much sway in the current government.
https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001432586
Less than 5% of Haredim male teens have "Bagrut", basically meaning more than 95% of them don't finish highschool.
They know, in theory, how to learn because after all they learn Torah all day. The issue is that they never applied it to secular studies. For example, I voulenteered tutoring them so they can start in academia and I could cover about a year's worth of math material in about a month.
No one wants them in the israeli army though. Imagine you are fighting alongside a religious idiot who never learned writing or arithmetic, or any basic sociology or history. He just studied the fucking Torah all day long for the past 15 years. He's a friendly fire machine ready to unload. Unless you're using them in the frontline/first wave no other Israelis want them there that's the irony.
When he encounters a Palestinian civilian, how is he going to treat them. Again, he's an uneducated religious zealot asshole. Think on it. It sucks for everyone in the IDF to have them around, and it also sucks for the Palestinians.
You kind of need to know how to interact with everyday people to be good at anything. Like, just basic, basic, basic knowledge about things other than the Bible. Like how to even communicate and sympathize with someone who doesn’t share the same beliefs as you. How tf can you even build a bridge with a group of people you have no concept of. You spent your Saturday mornings throwing rocks at women walking in Jerusalem with a low cut top or tshirt. I don’t want or need you constructing a bridge with me.
The Israeli government a while ago had to institute minimum requirements for them, such as: 4 hours of English per week, 2 hours of science, 4 hours of basic mathematics. However they do not comply:
[https://en.idi.org.il/articles/49956#:\~:text=For%20example%2C%20middle%20school%20students,more%2C%20in%20other%20public%20schools](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/49956#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20middle%20school%20students,more%2C%20in%20other%20public%20schools).
[https://www.science.org/content/article/science-free-schooling-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-draws-fire](https://www.science.org/content/article/science-free-schooling-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-draws-fire)
[https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/07/israeli-ultra-orthodox-divided-over-studying-math-english](https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/07/israeli-ultra-orthodox-divided-over-studying-math-english)
These are not people who even have basic education that helps them interact with people outside of their bubble. When some of them even VOLUNTEER to be in the IDF, it is uncomfortable for other soldiers to trust or rely on them. They don't even know how to interact with other JEWS. Let alone go into a conflict zone with an entirely different group of people and customs.
Historically, Jewish focus on the importance of reading Torah encouraged literacy rates in Jewish communities much higher than their non-Jewish counterparts and facilitated the development of a Jewish professional class. It's ironic to see Haredi communities take that focus to such an extreme that it has the complete opposite effect.
Meanwhile, even taking out the Haredim from the rest if the Israeli Jews, the group with the highest education level on average is Arab Christians. And by quite a bit.
It helped when you had everyone piling in on one-semi mass produced book of "How to run a society".
When all the other books started to exist in mass supply thanks to at-the-time modern technology, this started to have problems.
Ironic, but not unexpected. The Christian church used to be the place to get educated, with the rest of the populous being illiterate serfs. Turns out when people start realizing that a book of mythology isn’t the epitome of all knowledge- and they aren’t persecuted, imprisoned, or tortured - they tend to be better educated.
Surprise, surprise.
They learn arithmetic. They need it to study Torah. They don't learn much more math than that. I used to voulenteer tutoring them up to college entrance level and often had to start with fractions. But they've studied so much else so throughly that you can get them up to speed pretty quick. About a grade level a month. Gets them ready for college in less than a year.
Good. Army gets more manpower (and maybe more divine assistance on the battlefield), Haredim get a little real world education and exposure to other ways of life.
The weirdest part is when religious scholars were first exempted, the exemption only applied to like 400 persons Now they are 13% of Israel which is wild
This is due mostly to immigration, while they do have lots of children (average of 6.1 per woman) 400 to 1.3 Million is impossible
It’s causing a demographic crisis. The ultra religious are significantly out reproducing the secular population. Like any society ultra religious breed like rabbits
It’s almost as if the more educated you are (western education/higher education) the less inclined you are to have 7 children where you sacrifice your job, personal time, hobbies, money etc.
Well, it's also that Israel encourages it with financial benefits and while it doesn't really 'break even' for most families, it's very significant for ultra-orthodox families in which the males aren't working and live on special governments brib- uh... Benefits
Same applies to America. Many uneducated, low income families will continue to have kids knowing they can’t afford them but the government will pay them $800 more a month for another kid. They don’t care the child has to share a bed with their sibling in a room with 4 other kids, while sharing clothes and going to sleep hungry.
This idea that "welfare queens" have multiple kids for a marginal support gain in America is based mainly on a gross misunderstanding of the circumstances of poor women at best and a racist myth at worst. First, the primary driver of most modern poor families is the lack of access to medical reproductive services. There are exceptions, of course, but it's far from many. Second, almost no state welfare programs have worked like that since the 1990s. At the federal level, welfare assistance for multiple children was capped after 3 children. Some states, like California, have partially reversed this in the last decade at the state level, but it still is a diminishing returns situation. Third, and obviously, keeping another child even vaguely in a state that all but the most negligent CPS agent would allow for takes far more than $600 a month. Sources PBS: From Mother's Pensions to Welfare Queens: Debunking the Myth about Welfare. [https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/from-mothers-pensions-to-welfare-queens-debunking-myths-about-welfare/](https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/from-mothers-pensions-to-welfare-queens-debunking-myths-about-welfare/)
Interesting because actual government reposts state otherwise: https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/welfare-mothers-potential-employees-statistics-profile-based-national-survey-data-0 https://www.newamerica.org/weekly/rise-and-reign-welfare-queen/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/scott-w-stern-covid-19-and-welfare-queens/ I’m not saying they view having kids as a source of income. I’m simply stating that the majority of the time they don’t care about the outcome of their children and get blinded by the fact that the government sends them free money every month. To the point that If another pops out randomly it’s not a big deal or even a blessing. When you have people with PHDs afraid to have kids because of the impact of climate change.
It's worth noting that I said \*since\* the 1990s after the reforms passed (under the Clinton Administration). Your government report is from before 1992. I am confident that you didn't closely read the New America article, as it supports what I am saying by showing how the reforms created a bright poverty line for welfare and a system that automatically assumes the worst about applicants and is set up to deny them.
It's about controlling woman as much as anything else. Those women don't really have a choice. Same for many Muslims and some Christian sects.
Agreed. The sad part is they don’t even realize it.
They are married early and then are busy with 8 kids, they don't have time for nonsense like "rights".
Why care about rights when you have purpose for once in your life /s
This is what happens when you have no hobbies/interests/personality and fall back only on religion
Oh I saw this movie
Which would that be?
That's not as good as a take as you think it is
Crazy cause the stats and research say otherwise. Women with poor education and little career prospects don't have many other goals in life other than being a mother. Women with higher education degrees are not only more independent but have more opportunities for leading a productive life. Educated women provide better care for their children which increases the value of their children’s human capital which in turn decreases the need for having more. And this isn’t even mentioning the many other reasons educated women (in the west) don’t want more kids: worries about climate change and the impact of bringing another life into the world, worries about passing on mental disease, birth control being more accessible to educated women, etc.
Educated people have children later to pay off their debt/maximise their career/anything else similar. You're making it sound as if anyone with 2 or 3 kids is a religious hick. Perhaps you should read a more in-depth study where it is found that if you have one child, you are more likely to have more. In fact, the % of people with more than one child is more or less constant, what is increasing is people with 0 children - the reasons are overwhelmingly economical. People don't have children if they can't have them responsibly. And that is tragic.
And they don't work or contribute to their society either but expect the wife to reproduce and work constantly to support their "studies" because it's a "higher calling"
Rabbi~~t~~s
Amazing
They're also out reproducing the Muslims.
Rip Israel. It’s only a matter of time before Israel is taken over by regions extremists.
Not really. This is mostly due to the fact that the exemption was increased to cover a much higher % of the Haredi population. You are conflating the total size of the Haredi population, with the total number of Haredi people who are exempt from military service at any given time (that's what the original 400 number refers to). The latter group is currently about 60k, not 1.3 million.
Amazingly, it will drop now that pretending isn't a free pass and stipend.
The amount comparable to the initial 400 students is 66,000, not 13% of 9 million, these are those who are eligible to the draft
Good, special treatment for religious fanatics is categorically unacceptable.
Although, loading the army with religious fanatics might not be the *best* idea in the world, this is a good point.
They aren't going to the combat jobs even if they do draft. They'll probably full up the lines in combat support fixing equipment, logistics and desk work most likely. Nobody ends up in combat in the IDF who isn't willing to, or at least apathetic.
You're hilarious, man. To fix equipment and do desk jobs you need to know stuff, from operating ms office to more skilled labour. These are graduates of religious schools that don't teach basic maths or even prepare them for independence in the world outside of their cults. I assume that they're going to spend a lot of time learning primary school stuff first, in the IDF
>These are graduates of religious schools that don't teach basic maths or even prepare them for independence in the world outside of their cults. False. The IDF trains you from zero. You dont need to know anything about the role.
Also the true ability to study of the yeshiva goers is displayed when they attempt to study in academics - over 70% drop out
His point is they lack basic education, so they'd have to start at 1st grade with these clowns.
For some roles, sure. For others, like the one I did 20 years ago, it had a pre requisite of me being certified practical engineer and had a pre-recruitment course, all for servicing machinery. There are many such roles, you're just not as aware as you think you are
yes but I think he means when you are 18 you should already have a basic grasp of how to use a computer, most people already have driver licenses etc... its going to much harder and wasteful to teach someone how to do a desk job if they don't know how to operate basic stuff
Zero means the ability to read at an 8th grade level, and do basic pre algebra.
IDF trains you from 'reasonably basic competence' to 'modern soldier'. You can't turn someone who doesn't know basic math into a competent modern soldier unless you're scrapping the barrel (and at that point you've got *problems*) and you absolutely need a gun in human hands. It's just not going to work.
Presumably they choose a role that's suitable for you then train you on that and don't let the recruit just choose whatever they want.
Most people in the army are dumb as rocks. But they learn. This will be no different
You're confusing dumb with being brought on and educated on completely different set of values.
You didnt say that
I know, you did
Eh most likely will be combat, they're getting drafted cus there aren't enough combat soldiers. And while they don't trust the charedim to want to draft or believe in the value of the army, the ones who draft instead of going to jail can be trusted not to sabotage anything once they're already there.
Lol no they are not getting drafted because there arent enough combat soldiers. Stop making shit up if you dont know anything on the matter. They are being drafted because its mandetory for everyone - there were protests for 9 months prior to the war for a variety of reasons and the haredi draft was one of them, because they do not share the load currently and are leeching on the country without giving anything back
I'm married to a combat soldier and have multiple brothers and cousins in the idf- I'm just saying what the common knowledge of people in combat in the idf is. The ramatkal (head commander of the army) recently said that there aren't enough combat soldiers. I'm making 0% of this up. The charedim not drafting has been an issue for years, the lack of combat soldiers is just the last straw
Most IDF soldiers arent combative soldiers. Combat training takes up to a year, so even if there was combat shortage (there isn't) they will not be filling the ranks.
Judas the hammer: am I nothing to you?
Judah (Yehudah) , not Judas.
I don’t know, I heard that religious fanatics are the most morally correct people. Edit: /s for good measure.
You forgot the /s . People are taking it seriously
Their military is already loaded with West Bank Settlers religious fanatics, if anything the Charedim might cancel the other fanatics a bit.
How dare you sir. How much more persecution must The Ancient Order of Screw You I’m Lazy and Contribute Nothing take?!?!?
Though I wouldn't want religious fanatics in combat either. Especially in an urban area like Gaza.
Although I this case the special treatment is NOT allowing them to kill for the government
Good for them. It Religion is driving half the problem over there anyways, make the 'exempt' ones understand what everyone else has to go through. > while the Haredim have said they will quit if the government fails to pass legislation to prevent the draft. adios free loaders. >But the politically powerful Haredim, who make up roughly 13% of Israeli society, have traditionally received exemptions if they are studying full-time in a yeshiva or religious seminary. The exemptions — and the government stipends many yeshiva students receive through age 26 — have infuriated the wider general public. I would be pisssed too if I was there general public.
From what I have learned from friends who lived in Israel for some time., the one thing that unites the left and the right in Israel is their absolute disdain for the ultra-religious. They are seen as only causing problems for everyone while doing fuck-all to contribute to society.
Yet, Haredi still maintain their privilege many yrs despite left and right both hate them
A lot of groups can have political power far beyond their size if they are able to play kingmaker. Coalition governments can often be at the total mercy of their weakest party.
Nobody hates the jews more than the jews.
While not untrue about many groups of people, your comment did make me remember a story about the last two Jews in Afghanistan. They *really* didn’t like each other, lol. https://www.jta.org/2019/10/31/global/the-last-jews-in-afghanistan-argued-so-much-the-taliban-kicked-them-out-of-prison-and-stole-their-torah
Haha this reads like something out of a cartoon.
It's more like nobody likes a freeloader
Nah. No one cares that they're jews. They could be atheists, muslims, or anything else and it'll still be the same. People hate the fact that all they do is read the bible every day all day. Most of them don't work, don't learn a profession, don't serve, and don't master anything that is useful to the country and the people. Meaning that they have zero contribution to the country, despite being a 1/8 of its population. The secular and non-ultra religious public protects them, work for them, and pays for them for no gain. For years! When you tell them they have to change and do their part for the coubtry, they start screaming, yelling and becoming violent. We don't need people like them, jews or not.
The stipends have to go.
Their stipends go on Monday. Paperwork was already filed by the Attorney General of Israel.
The political consequences of this will be very interesting. January last year: >The incoming government has proposed a broad range of measures to benefit the Haredi population, including increasing stipends for seminary students, which may disincentivize Haredi men from entering the workforce. >[Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredim-are-fastest-growing-population-will-be-16-of-israelis-by-decades-end/) Hopefully forced exposure to the outside world will help counter the brainwashing.
If it’s anything like post graduate school, we got stipends in the STEM fields to study. We had to usually teach in addition to our own research to do that, but we did get paid enough to live to go to school.
Yeah, but those are paid by the university, not the government.
It’s a state school so it’s somewhat incestuous in that regard
maybe it will also cause them to weigh the cost of conflict more realistically in their voting
this is a long standing debate in Israeli politics. Currently the orthodox are exempt from mandatory service, which was argued for a long time by the rest of the population as an unjustified thing since the rest need to serve and exempting this large part if the population forces the rest to have a longer mandatory service. since netanyahu heavily relies in the orthodox parties in order to keep his PM seat, this subject was kind of always suppressed (was still a vocal debate, but was never fairly voted on), and every few years they legislated a bill that exempts the orthodox from service for the next few years. this bill has now, for the first time in decades, reached his expiration without renewal and that's what were seeing being talked about for the last month or so. this is a literal wildcard, most of israelis have just accepted the exemption as something that will always happen, so its very interesting to see what happens next, with the expectation that if the army goes through with it, there would be very violent protests by the orthodox.
I disagree on the last part, we the people of Israel do not accept the inequality anymore. If they want to leave I will help them pack.
i meant more of a "de facto" kind of accept, as in, it is what it is, and less in the literal way of it being okay.
Everyone likes to say they don't accept inequality (But you'll have to ask them to define inequality), but actually sticking necks out is gonna be an ask - regardless of the population.
This is really good news. I think this will in the long run help deradicalize Israel. It'll weaken the fringes and bring the government more towards the center of political opinion.
Exposing them to other people with different beliefs will do good things. In the military you have to humble yourself to the chain of command.
Real grunt work both humbles and teaches most people. Maybe just maybe, these religious radicals will both better appreciate the role of the IDF in Israel, learn some secular aka real world responsibility, and understand the actual limitations of supporting the endless military occupation in the West Bank. One can only hope.
Or, you'll introduce fanaticism to less fortunate populations. Hope that the command is willing to grind their fanaticism out of them and keep it out of more susceptible minds.
It's not news at all since there's a million to one chance it'll come to pass
Don’t tell others to do what you aren’t willing to do
You will never be president with that attitude.
Fucking finally. Those fuckers are such a tiny fraction in Israel but they dictate almost everything and getting insane budgets that secular people don't.
13% isn't tiny.
Out of 100%, I think it is. Even 80%, the other 20% being Arab.
With how Israeli politics are structured around multi-party coalitions, 13% clout for an ultra-religious party is significant.
It's 1 in 8, which isn't a small amount of a community, especially if they act in a concerted fashion. As a comparison, it's roughly equal to the population of African Americans in the US.
13% is larger than most minority population groups in most places. Hell, it might be second of all other demographics in some places.
Aren’t they badly educated? In the US the Haredi men don’t learn any living skills, they just learn to read Torah. The women are taught things like computer skills so they can get jobs.
My brother is ultra orthodox (in LA not Israel) he’s an accountant.
Probably because he can't be financially supported by a religion.
[удалено]
There’s a whole Mel Brooks movie that disproves that.
They're not a monolith and very much depends on which community. Maybe of them have very good primary education until 12th grade - they study math and other subjects in addition to religious studies. Many of the men don't continue with college Or uni as they go to seminaries full time instead. Not all, and many men do work but typically in less higher education requiring roles. Imagine a bit of the 'classic' 1950 gender roles, except the women work, and the men study, and household work is either divided or falls more to the woman in some cases.
Go to seminars full time? That sounds like hell on earth
*seminary - institution of religious studies. My bad haha
Ahhhh , wow that had my mind really baffled
What a bunch 9f useless men.
Yep, most of them are. It will be like recruitment of primary school students, skills-wise
This is a falsehood largely propagated by antisemites. Haredim absolutely are educated, just as well as any other person. Yeshivas tend to begin classes at ~8AM and finish at ~5pm for elementary and high school, for example, because Torah study is always in *addition* to secular education subjects, not in place of them.
Sorry, but no. Torah study (at least in Israel) is not in addition to secular study in Haredi schools. In Israel we have a separate Bagrut (highschool diploma requirement) for Haredi schools. They teach core subjects (that includes math and English only up to a certain point) unlike secular or religious non-haredi schools that teach them all the way to graduation.
Thank you, I'm not sure why this guy is lying about this, but I lived next to Mea Shearim and he's so wrong that it seems like deliberate dishonesty.
Perhaps they are an Ultra Orthodox from Tel Aviv and think that it's the same everywhere in Israel because they never bothered to go to the more extreme areas? On a separate note, I find it absolutely hilarious that within the Israeli education system, the Arabic bagrut is the most secular bagrut the state offers! In Hebrew studying Torah texts is a requirement (and depending on the teacher can be "literature only" or "this is the holy text!") while in Arabic there is absolutely zero religious stuff required for Bagrut.
He absolutely sounds like he's living in a Tel Aviv or some other kind of bubble full of anglo olim. Real Efrat vibes coming from him too.
A friend of mine dated a Haredi man briefly and said he had roughly a 5th grade education. They definitely do exist, but they’re a very rare extreme fringe.
What do you mean dated? Like met through a matchmaker? Haredi people don’t date in the traditional sense. You meet to discuss marriage a few times, and make a call. It would be odd to be dating since that really isn’t part of how religious Jewish courtship works. I speak as someone who grew up in both a haredi and modern orthodox community.
I’m not sure exactly how it happened, I haven’t pressed my friend on that. My assumption is that he was in the process of leaving the haredi community, but my friend did grow up orthodox so shidduch is possible (I just don’t think she was still orthodox at that point, and I don’t think any matchmaker would set a PhD student up with a man with only a 5th grade education)
Makes sense, I was just curious. Obviously people leave and things. It’s consistent with my experience as well.
Oh there are definitely *some* that are like that. (Many of them are protesting against the war). But the *vast* majority are as educated as anyone else. Yeshivas both in the US and Israel (and, presumably, other countries, though I have no personal experience with those) are generally what you would expect from a private school in terms of education. Fairly high quality teachers, small class sizes, etc. Edit: There's also the simple fact that while they may receive the education, they might "toss" it once their schooling is over. Calculus is only useful in Torah study to a point.
Speaking as someone who went to a yeshiva in the US, that’s simply not true. My yeshiva did whatever they could to do the absolute minimum. Other yeshivas in my town were the same. Mere lip service was paid to secular education. There are other Jewish religious schools, usually more prep schools, which are expensive and excellent. Those are nothing like Haredi yeshivas. We didn’t teach calculus in high school at all. What you describe is not reflective of what a Haredi community in the US is like. I ended up getting a GED, going to a four year college, and leaving the religion. My high school education was absolutely garbage and I had to teach myself algebra and pre calculus before I could take calculus in college. It’s a disgrace and disservice to the students. It’s designed to keep you in.
This is absolutely wrong for Israel where very few (if any) orthodox yeshivas teach secular subjects at all.
Israeli Haredi are probably very different from American haredi. What you describe sounds like American Orthodox Jews.
They're not that different. There are a few very small groups that are uneducated or don't take their secular education seriously, but the vast majority are not like that. Source: Am Orthodox with some Haredi family and friends in both the US and Israel. One of my close childhood friends is studying to be the next great *posek* (essentially one of the authorities on Torah law) in Israel right now. He was an AP student in every secular subject IIRC.
You're the one propagating the falsehood. I was Haredi and the people you're talking about are not Haredi. Even the most open of the hasidic groups (Lubavitch) aren't particularly fond of or good at providing their kids secular education. Not sure what your agenda is here, but it's an outright lie.
In Israel they don't get any education except for Bible study.
This is not true. Source: I went to a yeshiva in America. We did the bare minimum to meet state requirements. Gym class? You play outside at lunch. Music? We sing at prayer time. My ethics was good in that they made an effort to meet state minimums. In many hardi communities, you won’t even learn English to a conversational level. It would be Yiddish. More moderate Jews, even modern orthodox, tend to be highly educated. But you are wrong that this is a false hood, or anti semetic, it’s a problem. Insular religious communities, Jewish or not, propagate all sorts of abuses to keep people trapped. I left the religion, went to college, and am no longer religious. I’m one of the lucky ones.
Do they go to uni as well?
An Israeli can correct me if I’m wrong but I believe they are pretty educated and well off?
The women are about as educated as the other populace is Israel, which is a bit higher than the OECD average (or something similar). The men are roughly 50% Amish Jews with 0 skills outside reading the Torah, 40% who have normal jobs, and 10% who leave the Haredi lifestyle but are still counted as Haredim. They can afford so many children because their children (usually the girls) raise the other children, and have an average of 6.1 children per woman. Notably the average is slightly higher in the USA (6.7), and less people leave the Haredi lifestyle in the USA
No they really aren’t. They don’t know anything about math, science or the English language, not even the ABC. They women do get an education and many times higher education too so they can go work “regular” jobs and professions. This obviously doesn’t apply to everyone, but it is a large majority of ultra orthodox.
This is absolutely not true. Haredim learn the same subjects everyone else does in addition to their Torah studies. It's hard for non-Orthodox Jewish people to picture it, but for most heavy or ultra-Orthodox people, learning isn't just something they do at school. It's their hobby and (if they stay in that life) their passion. They aren't playing video games or watching TV when they come home from school, they're learning more.
What are you basing your comment on? This is widely discussed in Israel. There is a great opposition among the Haredi community to learning LIBA studies (math, English, science etc), some government were toppled over this issue. People who leave ultra orthodox life routinely lament their lack of general education outside of Torah studies, and there is available statistics showing their ignorance in those subjects.
I'll just repost from another reply: >Source: Am Orthodox with some Haredi family and friends in both the US and Israel. One of my close childhood friends is studying to be the next great posek (essentially one of the authorities on Torah law) in Israel right now. He was an AP student in every secular subject IIRC.
Great, but this is anecdotal. The wider statistics say otherwise.
What the statistics don't say is that you can't get someone to *care* about education if they don't want to. They definitely do get educated in secular studies, but there are absolutely a large number that don't care enough to keep with it and don't use it enough to retain it. That's an entirely different problem, though. One that mandatory drafting and, hopefully, fewer workforce exemptions will address.
Secular children also don’t care about education many times :) but it’s not a choice for them. They must go to school and most study these subjects, and that’s the real difference.
No, it's not. Haredim still learn secular subjects, as I said. They *also* learn Torah. The majority of their schooling time is in Torah study, as is a large part of their after-school time, but they absolutely do learn secular subjects. The minimums are to address the fringe that do actively discourage secular education, but they are a *very* small minority. One that definitely has too much sway in the current government.
Learning what? Like, fairy tales and comic books or like Merkava maintance guide?
https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001432586 Less than 5% of Haredim male teens have "Bagrut", basically meaning more than 95% of them don't finish highschool.
They know, in theory, how to learn because after all they learn Torah all day. The issue is that they never applied it to secular studies. For example, I voulenteered tutoring them so they can start in academia and I could cover about a year's worth of math material in about a month.
The opposite is true
Yeah, good luck with that.
Finally, after 30 years of back and forth bullshit, this issue is settled
Here’s a thought: Having babies at this point is pretty much a guarantee they will become enlisted anywhere in the world. Humans are overrated.
No one wants them in the israeli army though. Imagine you are fighting alongside a religious idiot who never learned writing or arithmetic, or any basic sociology or history. He just studied the fucking Torah all day long for the past 15 years. He's a friendly fire machine ready to unload. Unless you're using them in the frontline/first wave no other Israelis want them there that's the irony. When he encounters a Palestinian civilian, how is he going to treat them. Again, he's an uneducated religious zealot asshole. Think on it. It sucks for everyone in the IDF to have them around, and it also sucks for the Palestinians.
can't they be put through 1 year of training and be given something more basic to do, like logistics or construction ?
You kind of need to know how to interact with everyday people to be good at anything. Like, just basic, basic, basic knowledge about things other than the Bible. Like how to even communicate and sympathize with someone who doesn’t share the same beliefs as you. How tf can you even build a bridge with a group of people you have no concept of. You spent your Saturday mornings throwing rocks at women walking in Jerusalem with a low cut top or tshirt. I don’t want or need you constructing a bridge with me.
Do they actually not learn stuff as basic as arithmetic?
The Israeli government a while ago had to institute minimum requirements for them, such as: 4 hours of English per week, 2 hours of science, 4 hours of basic mathematics. However they do not comply: [https://en.idi.org.il/articles/49956#:\~:text=For%20example%2C%20middle%20school%20students,more%2C%20in%20other%20public%20schools](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/49956#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20middle%20school%20students,more%2C%20in%20other%20public%20schools). [https://www.science.org/content/article/science-free-schooling-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-draws-fire](https://www.science.org/content/article/science-free-schooling-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-draws-fire) [https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/07/israeli-ultra-orthodox-divided-over-studying-math-english](https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/07/israeli-ultra-orthodox-divided-over-studying-math-english) These are not people who even have basic education that helps them interact with people outside of their bubble. When some of them even VOLUNTEER to be in the IDF, it is uncomfortable for other soldiers to trust or rely on them. They don't even know how to interact with other JEWS. Let alone go into a conflict zone with an entirely different group of people and customs.
Historically, Jewish focus on the importance of reading Torah encouraged literacy rates in Jewish communities much higher than their non-Jewish counterparts and facilitated the development of a Jewish professional class. It's ironic to see Haredi communities take that focus to such an extreme that it has the complete opposite effect.
Meanwhile, even taking out the Haredim from the rest if the Israeli Jews, the group with the highest education level on average is Arab Christians. And by quite a bit.
Arab christians are Israel’s equivalent of Asians in the US.
A good lesson on how extremism of all political or religious groups is terrible.
Bingo. This is the correct lesson to glean from all of this.
It helped when you had everyone piling in on one-semi mass produced book of "How to run a society". When all the other books started to exist in mass supply thanks to at-the-time modern technology, this started to have problems.
Ironic, but not unexpected. The Christian church used to be the place to get educated, with the rest of the populous being illiterate serfs. Turns out when people start realizing that a book of mythology isn’t the epitome of all knowledge- and they aren’t persecuted, imprisoned, or tortured - they tend to be better educated. Surprise, surprise.
They learn arithmetic. They need it to study Torah. They don't learn much more math than that. I used to voulenteer tutoring them up to college entrance level and often had to start with fractions. But they've studied so much else so throughly that you can get them up to speed pretty quick. About a grade level a month. Gets them ready for college in less than a year.
Good. Army gets more manpower (and maybe more divine assistance on the battlefield), Haredim get a little real world education and exposure to other ways of life.
One Nation One Draft!
So they are giving the people that spit on people guns? Nothing bad will come of it... /s
Don’t forget to draft the women too
They should also get the ones from NYC to help.