I just read Edge of Night. The description it gives when she dies seems to be accurate for a possible punishment one might get if they were sent to the Maw.
Dude, the fuck is your problem. You mentioned Icecrown, I didn't know about that, I looked it up and said yeah that kinda sounds like the Maw. I started playing in cataclysm because I'm only younger than wow by 4 months.
I only knew this death, because I played it and she goes talks about the darkness and how she is scared of her fate.
How about you take a moment and read instead of getting angry and you'd understand that I'm agreeing with you about how she's seen the Maw 2x.
Your comment was a nonsequitur that repeated your previous comment. The only reason the vast majority of people would repeat what they said but add "I just read this evidence" is to disagree.
I apologise for jumping to that conclusion but... in that case, why even reply?
Also I started in Cata, dunno why that matters ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
If I just read Edge of Night? Wouldn't that imply that I recognize that it takes place in ICC because she smacks the ice encasing bolvar, and then fucking jumps off, killing herself. I treat my comments as a conversation, I reply because that's what you do in a convoy.
What he meant was that the whole Shadowlands narrative is a big fat retcon, so at that point, the story might have been written differently, not including the Maw. (I think)
Its always because of this that I find WoW scaling funny because he really did just kill her with a normal ass gun, this is a character that eventually beat Lich King Bolvar and took on an entire raid and one undead boi with a pistol solo'd her
you are in for a big shock next expansion when we find out the new villain was actually the one who was behind the Jailer and tricked him for all eternity. so the Jailer's plan was all part of the Super Jailer's plan.
Until we find out in war within 2 electric boogaloo that it was actually Supreme Jailor manipulating the super jailor into convincing the jailor to do his plan instead
Can't wait until we learn the void lords are actually just a ploy by the super secret extra baddy in order to make Sargaras turn to the demons and make the legion.
Unironically at some point I'd like an expansion that's basically a "vacation" expansion. Imagine that you "level" by relaxing at a resort in Tel'Abim. New mechanics like "surfing" and the raid bosses are just beach Kens (basically) trying to crash your sick parties.
The player characters are probably exhausted from constantly dealing with existential threats.
Weve always called it the Filler expansion. Its purpose was to focus less on super ominous serious stories, and more just for the devs to iron out evergreen game mechanic changes
Honestly thought Denath and the Primus were secretly puppeting the jailer the whole time I mean the primus made the domination magic and jailer masters it better than the guy who wrote the shit? I don't buy it...
i still think the Primus is the puppet master, but that was cut because the fans were tired of Shadowlands and we instead got the lazy ending. now shadowlands will just forever be swept under the rug and memed on.
Yeah it's really a shame what they did to her. Her story is "this noble defender gives her life to protect her people, is raised from the dead and forced to serve the lich king, breaks free from his control and just chooses to be completely irredeemably evil"? I get they did it to further the story but man, they did her DIRTY.
yup, she should have gotten her redemption and just became a background character, would have been better to use someone, anyone else for the jailer plotline :/
I think her story is pretty decent, up until the events in shadowlands. Like she dies, discovers she's going to 'hell' (itself maybe a manipulation?), and decides she's going to do anything she can to avoid going there. That's a sensible enough motivation.
then we get to shadowlands and discover the afterlife is kinda deeply screwed up, so maybe she was right? But they more or less abandon any examination of this in the sanctum of domination patch in favor of Mr Nipples leering ominously
everything up to the "chooses to be crazy evil" part was great. the forsaken were always doing terrible things but a lot of reasons that maybe it wasn't her and she didn't know about it. a great morally grey character, the audience never knowing for certain where she stood. but when she went mask off, it was all down hill.
Except that was the case even in Warcraft III after she'd broken free of the Lich King. One of her first actions is to team up with the surviving armies of Lordaeron and retake the capital city only to immediately betray that alliance and slaughter them all.
Sylvanas has always been manipulative and get progressively more unhinged before BFA
BfA and shadowlands biggest sin is its execution but sylvanas being evil was always forgone conclusion.
My biggest gripe with Sylvanas going full evil mode was we had JUST finished the Garrosh Arc. (Cata>MoP>WOD)
You know where the Horde War Chief goes full big bad, and how do they follow it up?
By immediately killing off the sensible War Chief and starting Evil War Chief 2: Undead Boogaloo
whoever pitched sylvanas becoming warchief should've been thrown out a window, there's no world where the rest of the horde's leaders would tolerate her as warchief after garrosh
...i mean, yeah? that's what she's been since literally Warcraft 3. the writers were simply consistent with her character (until the nonsense 'redemption arc' in shadowlands)
In WC3 when she broke free from LK's control she opposed him and tried to end the scourge. From vanilla wow up through Legion she was actively fighting against the enemies of Azaeroth and then in BFA/SL she does a complete 180. It's inconsistent AF lol
Since you clearly didn't play Warcraft 3, no.
While she broke free from the scourge and fight against Arthas, she was also manipulative.
She form an alliance with human promising to give them their city back only to betray them after she using them
Varimathas even commented on how she was similar to a dreadlord. That was Warcraft 3.
She has always been a manipulative character. In cataclysm, she literally told Koltira that Arthas biggest sin was that he was too weak to when he was making his death knight and she won't make them same mistake.
Blizzard even wrote a short story where she forced the blood elves to sent troop against lich king despite them not wanting to and threaten to let them dies and overrun by the Scourge if they don't comply.
And this is when Blood elves was already suffered from civil war and didn't have enough troop to fight arthas. They even said half of their soldier still in infirmary, but Sylvanas didn't care.
Even in legion she enslaved the Valkyrs aka OUR ALLIED.
You can make excuse for sylvanas and how all of these are necessary for preservation but if you line them up then you realized Blizzard is very consistent when it making sylvanas fallen further to paranoia and madness.
I have problem with execution of how sylvanas become evil but her being evil is not out of nowhere.
It would've been much better if either her death in WotLK condemned her to some void-afterlife, and that's both why she was so desperate to avoid ever dying again in the future and the valkyr had to work so hard to bring her back each time she died, or if she was simply naturally descending into madness and megalomania after losing her singular purpose in unlife without any altruistic desires to keep her going.
She fights against anything in the way of killing Arthas, and then she fights against anything in the way of her own immortal undeath after experiencing the hell she made for herself. It's perfectly consistent.
I remember the cope (myself included) in the community after she burned Teldrassil, that she had some secret master plan and the writers knew what they were doing. It turns out she did not, and they did not.
It was 100% terrible writing.
My proposed vision (or what I THOUGHT Sylvanas was doing) is that after trying to kill herself in WOTLK and seeing the darkness where she would be separated from her sisters - she realized she had to do something to get control of the situation because she refused to let her destiny / afterlife be under someone else's control again.
So she strategically committed atrocity after atrocity to endear herself to the Jailer. She became his most trusted soldier, the one who would help him achieve his master plan. And then right when the Jailer was poised to have it all, the citizens of Azeroth attack and disrupt his plans. And then Sylvanas would strike, betraying The Jailer, stealing his "soul" essence and with the power of the sigils she'd become an Eternal One.
And with her new power, she'd gain access to the Sepulcher of the First Ones where she'd plan to remake reality into a time where she didn't become a banshee, her brother didn't die, and her family was whole / never torn apart.
Of course, the citizens of Azeroth would have to stop her because you can't just get away with that.
Edit: also in this version, I'd have had Sylvanas become overwhelmed by the power of the Eternals during the final battle of the expansion. And maybe there'd be an NPC who would have the soul fragment that would make Sylvanas' soul whole again. And then she'd lose the fight. But as punishment/repentance, Sylvanas would become the new arbiter.
IMO, the above would have been much better than just having Sylvanas trust Lich King 2.0 and acting completely out of pocket.
Thank you :)
Nothing but the best for one of my favorite characters...sadly, sometimes it feels like I like/respect the character more than her creators do.
As a longtime Alliance player, I was beyond furious that they didn't execute her at the end of Shadowlands. There was no good reason not to. Everyone hated her guts, both in setting and out of it. Failing to wrap up the story with _actual consequences for main characters that do evil_ throws future story investment out the window.
I ended up quitting WoW entirely and played FFXIV for a year or so, and when I came back to raid I still didn't do much with the story because of how badly they fucked up their credibility in my eyes.
Sorry, Blizzard. Not getting invested in your narratives any more; all you do is fail to deliver a satisfying ending.
>actual consequences for main characters that do evil
That seems to be a recurring theme for wow/blizzard lately. The last 5 years or so, the bad guys are just allowed to just chill after being defeated or what have you. Sylvanas? She rightfully deserves to die, but nah. Eredar? Welcome to the alliance! Vyranoth, you get to become a dragon aspect!
Don't forget that letting Garrosh off the hook rather than just killing his ass dead at the end of SoO is what caused the entire WoD expansion. They've been doing this shtick for ages.
Alliance named characters don't get consequences for their actions. Jaina slaughtered the Sunreavers while she was allowing the Alliance to funnel men and materiel through "neutral" Dalaran in MoP. Sky Admiral Rogers ordered her troops to open fire on drowning orcs in the MoP Alliance-side opening. Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers ***started the damn war*** in Legion by opening fire on The Windrunner and her sister ships while they were at anchor in Stormheim. Those were the first shots of the war, while the Horde and Alliance were supposed to be allied against the Legion. Everyone blames Sylvanas for the war when Genn and Rogers started it with a sucker punch.
And then they doubled down on it by trying for a saving throw. They should have taken the L, killed off the waifu, and moved the story forward.
Nope, gotta stick her in the ~~freezer~~ maw until people forget about the terrible writing and they can bring her back.
The beginning of her downfall began in WoTLK and Cata sealed it. I know a lot of people wanted to believe in her in Legion, but BFA and Shadowlands had all but confirmed what we first began to realize in WoTLK/ Cata era.
> I know a lot of people wanted to believe in her in Legion
which is weird because she did absolutely nothing for fighting against the Legion after the initial battle. she even diverts her forces out of the way to endanger the greater mission so she can enslave the valkyr.
It started with the End Times dungeon in Cata. I knew a longtime Undead player who almost quit WoW because he was so pissed with what they predicted as her future in that dungeon. At the time I thought he was overreacting. Turns out he was right.
I hated her at the beginning of Cata. When you play through the Worgen intro, she solemnly promised to not spread any more plague goo around, and what does she do? Turns right around and orders all of Gilneas to be coated in the stuff. And she faces no consequences for blowing off the Warcheif.
I get that she is just trying to help her people survive. But that does not excuse rampant stupidity. The whole point of World of Warcraft is that both sides are in the right sometimes, both are in the wrong sometimes. They are just stuck in a cycle of war at the behest of cosmic forces and they have no real control over it. And she takes a running leap into the pools of the irredeemably evil. Drags herself out then jumps right back in again. Repeatedly. The Forsaken are supposed to be edgy and emo. But they are also supposed to feel like they might be playing misunderstood good guys or anti-heroes
I have said it before and I will say it again, if the undead recruited the same way warlocks do, they could continue to grow their population with willing subjects. If they had a tent set up next to the medics at a battlefield they could easily justify raising battle casualties the light couldn’t save to continue the fight. Or enemy combatants. The Alliance would be horrified, but it is a lot more justifiable than killing civilians
> I get that she is just trying to help her people survive.
Honestly never been convinced by this line. She might say it a bunch, and people say it a bunch about her, but she very blatantly treats the Forsaken like a weapon to be wielded by her and her alone. Any Forsaken who don't profess fealty to her are put back in the dirt, and she put them in danger with her warmongering instead of trying to establish peaceful relations with her neighbors. They were a tool for her to take vengeance against Arthas, and then to destroy anything that might threaten her immortal undeath.
Everything she did in BFA was consistent with how she acted in Cata, we just tend to gloss over how evil she was because she was still helping the Horde. Plaguing civilians, making more forsaken, torturing forsaken who she deemed not loyal enough, etc etc.
Cataclysm's zone plots were some of the best wow ever had to offer by far. More of interest and consequence happens in the Undercity versus Gilneas Cata story than all of Dragonflight. By far.
Nah, you see, the current narrative from Blizzard is that it's okay for genocide to happen because it drives us to doing something positive. Yes, they're telling us that bad things must happen to us. That's the shit that the Infinites have been fighting against, because it's bullshit. But now we have Infinites joining us and saying "Well maybe thousands dying wasn't so bad if it lead to Y happening".
I don't expect blizzard writers to defeat the problem of evil on a meta-ethical level in their fantasy rpg. Maybe the suffering does need to happen in wow, at least there are forces trying to rise against it.
It's an awful, awful thing to write, as if a conclussion cannot be had without a particularly horrible event happening. There's more than one way to reach the same conclussion about something. We didn't need genocide to tell us that war is bad or to unite against evil.
I mean it's just a video game, it's not a real genocide. I think it's cool to try and push the boundaries of reality in a fantasy game.
>conclussion cannot be had without a particularly horrible event happening.
There are people who feel this way. Personally I think that people will create badness in times of good, and goodness in times that are bad.
That's the point.
The issue is they decided to attach it to some cosmic BS rather than just leaving it as a "holy shit did we actually just do that" plot element.
Nah it would have been revealed she's been the jailer all along as some poetic the captured becomes the captor bullshit and I'm not sure if it would have destroyed Arthas story more or less than what we got.
Silverpine forest questing post cataclysm. A few gilneans go into undeath to avoid becoming worgen and manage to assassinate sylvannas who gets resurrected by the sacrifice of three valkyre
> A few gilneans go into undeath to avoid becoming worgen
Correction, Godfrey yeets himself off a cliff over following Greymane, and Sylvanas finds his corpse.
Lord GOATfrey is genuinely such a peak character. Kills himself so he doesn't have to serve a Worgen King, is resurrected and immediately does whatever tf he wants disobeying the Forsaken commands, enacts revenge against his people and then Sylvanas herself with a fucking submachine gun in Warcraft.
I mean in my opinion yeah. I would have much rather fought another old god puppet as long as he killed the entire reason we ended up in the expansion that shall not be named. The writing would have certainly been a lot less of a mess as well.
Edit: The wrong warchief died on Pandaria. You keep Vol’Jin and Sylvannas can die almost as a martyr trying to defeat a fully corrupted Garrosh (maybe the end to the mythic fight). That way the stans are happy and we get to avoid a lot of janky lore.
> The writing would have certainly been a lot less of a mess as well.
The writing was a mess due to the state of Blizzard, not because of Sylvanas. She was a consequence of that.
Not that I’m saying what was going on wasn’t awful but I think this is kind of a cop out. Especially since we now know they’re what, like two expansions ahead when the current one releases. (I.E working on BFA when Pandaria is out). The writers aren’t just coming up with stuff off the cuff, unless they were and I missed something then I’ll admit I’m wrong for sure.
Blizzard has been mismanaged and milked by Activision for a very long time. BFA and Shadowlands were the low point of a long descent. They're only showing signs of improvement because it finally started hitting their profits when they got there.
He thought he was controlling the Old God, but he was wrong. Look at how he kept using the Bell on his kor'kron even though even the most disciplined members were driven mad or just outright died. Look at how the Klaxxi immediately joined him. The insane visions he has when you're fighting him in Siege.
Garrosh was being played like a puppet by the corpse of a dead old god. Direct control isn't the only, or even necessarily the best, means of manipulating someone.
Only because Blizzard couldn't fucking pick a side to write him on, either.
Besides, given all the players simping over a fucking sentient knife who we know is doing it dirty for the void, I don't think being an Old God puppet is anything anyone gives a shit about. Mark my words, 80% of the playerbase would happily do so if they could get a shiny legendary out of it.
Blizz clearly knew which way they wanted him to go. The one writer who thought different and provided a single questline where Garrosh isn’t an ass to fucking everyone around him can only be thought of as the sad gasp for a interesting character.
Nah, but remember, Sylvanas is a brilliant tactician. Nobody could have predicted that the enemy that was trying to kill you would try to kill you if you brought him back to life.
See Im find with shadow of the erdtree being in the "shadowlands" as I can purge wows bad writing out with some good eldenring shadowlands adventures :) no lich king ret cons and sylvanas shelfers there
It's near the end of the Silverpine questline in Cataclysm, setting up the Shadowfang Keep dungeon.
~~This questline is also the reason Genn hates Sylvanas so much.~~ correction: this was the worgen starting zone questline.
More iconic than Gilnean traitor/revolutionary turned Forsaken traitor/revolutionary Lord Godfrey? *Successful* assassin of Sylvanas? Boss of the revamped Shadowfang Keep? That's unpossible!
Tried to prevent Shadowlands , visionary
But instead he caused it... >!well not really unless u buy into the theory that every time sylvanas died she became more insane!<
Well, if you would ignore the books, this would be the moment she met the Janitor. So it is plausible that he caused Shadowlands.
*The Janitor*
Time to clean up this mess of a planet.
Mops at the ready!
I don’t see how an island of pandas would help clean it up?
They dip their feet in soapy water and start moonwalking
Dr. Jan Itor. Bow before his fear-itude.
In this scene, it is implied she went to the Maw (if it existed at this point, but if it didn't it makes sense retroactively)
If she did, it would be the second time. First was her Icecrown plummet
I just read Edge of Night. The description it gives when she dies seems to be accurate for a possible punishment one might get if they were sent to the Maw.
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Dude, the fuck is your problem. You mentioned Icecrown, I didn't know about that, I looked it up and said yeah that kinda sounds like the Maw. I started playing in cataclysm because I'm only younger than wow by 4 months. I only knew this death, because I played it and she goes talks about the darkness and how she is scared of her fate. How about you take a moment and read instead of getting angry and you'd understand that I'm agreeing with you about how she's seen the Maw 2x.
Your comment was a nonsequitur that repeated your previous comment. The only reason the vast majority of people would repeat what they said but add "I just read this evidence" is to disagree. I apologise for jumping to that conclusion but... in that case, why even reply? Also I started in Cata, dunno why that matters ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
If I just read Edge of Night? Wouldn't that imply that I recognize that it takes place in ICC because she smacks the ice encasing bolvar, and then fucking jumps off, killing herself. I treat my comments as a conversation, I reply because that's what you do in a convoy.
>(if it existed at this point I'd bet the maw have existed for eons when this happened xD
What he meant was that the whole Shadowlands narrative is a big fat retcon, so at that point, the story might have been written differently, not including the Maw. (I think)
I was referring to the second time, when she kills herself. I assumed that was the time she went to the maw
Time paradox He tried to prevent Shadowlands, but was the one who caused it in the end. Trully a tragic story.
Its always because of this that I find WoW scaling funny because he really did just kill her with a normal ass gun, this is a character that eventually beat Lich King Bolvar and took on an entire raid and one undead boi with a pistol solo'd her
Thankfully shadowlands is noncanon, so none of that ever happened.
I like that there's a good amount of people that consider SL non canon. It brings me hope that one day Blizzard might just say "yea, it's non canon"
The expansion before dragonflight was bfa right? We just defeated her is SOO 2.0.
Well Mike Tyson was one punch to grave kid as well but see him now
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you are in for a big shock next expansion when we find out the new villain was actually the one who was behind the Jailer and tricked him for all eternity. so the Jailer's plan was all part of the Super Jailer's plan.
Until we find out in war within 2 electric boogaloo that it was actually Supreme Jailor manipulating the super jailor into convincing the jailor to do his plan instead
>it was (the) actually Supreme Jailor So Hogger? I knew it all along!
Jailer was just a pawn of the void lords, believe it. All will be revealed by Bae Blade in TWW/midnight.
Can't wait until we learn the void lords are actually just a ploy by the super secret extra baddy in order to make Sargaras turn to the demons and make the legion.
Unironically at some point I'd like an expansion that's basically a "vacation" expansion. Imagine that you "level" by relaxing at a resort in Tel'Abim. New mechanics like "surfing" and the raid bosses are just beach Kens (basically) trying to crash your sick parties. The player characters are probably exhausted from constantly dealing with existential threats.
Fairly sure thats what dragonflight was. Think ive heard it referred as one before.
Weve always called it the Filler expansion. Its purpose was to focus less on super ominous serious stories, and more just for the devs to iron out evergreen game mechanic changes
It was the null lord all along!
Oh yeah, they're gonna release a new season of Superjail as part of the marketing campaign.
ZoMuchVaal, The Jailest.
What if there was an evil jailer who was red and evil
Sargeras? Wasn't he originally tasked with capturing & imprisoning daemons? Sorta like a Jailer?
You fool, the super jailer was being manipulated by the ultra jailer all this time everything went according to his plans.
Honestly thought Denath and the Primus were secretly puppeting the jailer the whole time I mean the primus made the domination magic and jailer masters it better than the guy who wrote the shit? I don't buy it...
i still think the Primus is the puppet master, but that was cut because the fans were tired of Shadowlands and we instead got the lazy ending. now shadowlands will just forever be swept under the rug and memed on.
The Jailer is deceptively cunning…
Janitors Plan
Lord Godfrey for Warchief
This entire questline ducking bangs - i take every single horde toon through it without fail.
It’s enjoyable and fast leveling
How to start it?
Silverpine Forest, very top of the zone.
Thanks, I mostly played in vanilla/bc.
Play through the entirety of Silverpine Forest, start to finish
To be fair, this event probably pushed us even further towards shadowlands
Upon my name is Godfrey, first Elden Lord.
Thy strength befits a ... *rolls dice* 20 gold!
Now I fight as XXHoaralooXX, Fury Warrior!
Be assured the war within resteth close at hand
I love Sylvanas as a character and hate what they did to her at the progression of BfA and in Shadowlands. She deserved better.
Yeah it's really a shame what they did to her. Her story is "this noble defender gives her life to protect her people, is raised from the dead and forced to serve the lich king, breaks free from his control and just chooses to be completely irredeemably evil"? I get they did it to further the story but man, they did her DIRTY.
They didn't even have the balls to make her own her evil, instead turning it into a "wasn't my fault my soul was split" bs. Can't commit.
Her story should've just ended after WotLK, but Blizzard has something of a problem moving on from central characters and introducing new ones.
yup, she should have gotten her redemption and just became a background character, would have been better to use someone, anyone else for the jailer plotline :/
I think her story is pretty decent, up until the events in shadowlands. Like she dies, discovers she's going to 'hell' (itself maybe a manipulation?), and decides she's going to do anything she can to avoid going there. That's a sensible enough motivation. then we get to shadowlands and discover the afterlife is kinda deeply screwed up, so maybe she was right? But they more or less abandon any examination of this in the sanctum of domination patch in favor of Mr Nipples leering ominously
everything up to the "chooses to be crazy evil" part was great. the forsaken were always doing terrible things but a lot of reasons that maybe it wasn't her and she didn't know about it. a great morally grey character, the audience never knowing for certain where she stood. but when she went mask off, it was all down hill.
Except that was the case even in Warcraft III after she'd broken free of the Lich King. One of her first actions is to team up with the surviving armies of Lordaeron and retake the capital city only to immediately betray that alliance and slaughter them all.
Sylvanas has always been manipulative and get progressively more unhinged before BFA BfA and shadowlands biggest sin is its execution but sylvanas being evil was always forgone conclusion.
My biggest gripe with Sylvanas going full evil mode was we had JUST finished the Garrosh Arc. (Cata>MoP>WOD) You know where the Horde War Chief goes full big bad, and how do they follow it up? By immediately killing off the sensible War Chief and starting Evil War Chief 2: Undead Boogaloo
She shouldn't have been warchief.
whoever pitched sylvanas becoming warchief should've been thrown out a window, there's no world where the rest of the horde's leaders would tolerate her as warchief after garrosh
her primary pastime was committing genocides she blatantly knew about all the evil shit her underlings were doing because *she ordered them to do it*
...i mean, yeah? that's what she's been since literally Warcraft 3. the writers were simply consistent with her character (until the nonsense 'redemption arc' in shadowlands)
In WC3 when she broke free from LK's control she opposed him and tried to end the scourge. From vanilla wow up through Legion she was actively fighting against the enemies of Azaeroth and then in BFA/SL she does a complete 180. It's inconsistent AF lol
Since you clearly didn't play Warcraft 3, no. While she broke free from the scourge and fight against Arthas, she was also manipulative. She form an alliance with human promising to give them their city back only to betray them after she using them Varimathas even commented on how she was similar to a dreadlord. That was Warcraft 3. She has always been a manipulative character. In cataclysm, she literally told Koltira that Arthas biggest sin was that he was too weak to when he was making his death knight and she won't make them same mistake. Blizzard even wrote a short story where she forced the blood elves to sent troop against lich king despite them not wanting to and threaten to let them dies and overrun by the Scourge if they don't comply. And this is when Blood elves was already suffered from civil war and didn't have enough troop to fight arthas. They even said half of their soldier still in infirmary, but Sylvanas didn't care. Even in legion she enslaved the Valkyrs aka OUR ALLIED. You can make excuse for sylvanas and how all of these are necessary for preservation but if you line them up then you realized Blizzard is very consistent when it making sylvanas fallen further to paranoia and madness. I have problem with execution of how sylvanas become evil but her being evil is not out of nowhere.
It would've been much better if either her death in WotLK condemned her to some void-afterlife, and that's both why she was so desperate to avoid ever dying again in the future and the valkyr had to work so hard to bring her back each time she died, or if she was simply naturally descending into madness and megalomania after losing her singular purpose in unlife without any altruistic desires to keep her going.
She fights against anything in the way of killing Arthas, and then she fights against anything in the way of her own immortal undeath after experiencing the hell she made for herself. It's perfectly consistent.
I remember the cope (myself included) in the community after she burned Teldrassil, that she had some secret master plan and the writers knew what they were doing. It turns out she did not, and they did not.
It was 100% terrible writing. My proposed vision (or what I THOUGHT Sylvanas was doing) is that after trying to kill herself in WOTLK and seeing the darkness where she would be separated from her sisters - she realized she had to do something to get control of the situation because she refused to let her destiny / afterlife be under someone else's control again. So she strategically committed atrocity after atrocity to endear herself to the Jailer. She became his most trusted soldier, the one who would help him achieve his master plan. And then right when the Jailer was poised to have it all, the citizens of Azeroth attack and disrupt his plans. And then Sylvanas would strike, betraying The Jailer, stealing his "soul" essence and with the power of the sigils she'd become an Eternal One. And with her new power, she'd gain access to the Sepulcher of the First Ones where she'd plan to remake reality into a time where she didn't become a banshee, her brother didn't die, and her family was whole / never torn apart. Of course, the citizens of Azeroth would have to stop her because you can't just get away with that. Edit: also in this version, I'd have had Sylvanas become overwhelmed by the power of the Eternals during the final battle of the expansion. And maybe there'd be an NPC who would have the soul fragment that would make Sylvanas' soul whole again. And then she'd lose the fight. But as punishment/repentance, Sylvanas would become the new arbiter. IMO, the above would have been much better than just having Sylvanas trust Lich King 2.0 and acting completely out of pocket.
That's a really cool write-up!
Thank you :) Nothing but the best for one of my favorite characters...sadly, sometimes it feels like I like/respect the character more than her creators do.
As a longtime Alliance player, I was beyond furious that they didn't execute her at the end of Shadowlands. There was no good reason not to. Everyone hated her guts, both in setting and out of it. Failing to wrap up the story with _actual consequences for main characters that do evil_ throws future story investment out the window. I ended up quitting WoW entirely and played FFXIV for a year or so, and when I came back to raid I still didn't do much with the story because of how badly they fucked up their credibility in my eyes. Sorry, Blizzard. Not getting invested in your narratives any more; all you do is fail to deliver a satisfying ending.
>actual consequences for main characters that do evil That seems to be a recurring theme for wow/blizzard lately. The last 5 years or so, the bad guys are just allowed to just chill after being defeated or what have you. Sylvanas? She rightfully deserves to die, but nah. Eredar? Welcome to the alliance! Vyranoth, you get to become a dragon aspect!
I mean we killed Fyrakk and Sarkareth though, and they were fully *all in* on their BS. It's not like every villain is suddenly pulling a Vegeta.
Don't forget that letting Garrosh off the hook rather than just killing his ass dead at the end of SoO is what caused the entire WoD expansion. They've been doing this shtick for ages.
> letting Garrosh off the hook they were literally putting him on trial for his war crimes
Alliance named characters don't get consequences for their actions. Jaina slaughtered the Sunreavers while she was allowing the Alliance to funnel men and materiel through "neutral" Dalaran in MoP. Sky Admiral Rogers ordered her troops to open fire on drowning orcs in the MoP Alliance-side opening. Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers ***started the damn war*** in Legion by opening fire on The Windrunner and her sister ships while they were at anchor in Stormheim. Those were the first shots of the war, while the Horde and Alliance were supposed to be allied against the Legion. Everyone blames Sylvanas for the war when Genn and Rogers started it with a sucker punch.
> the writers did not know what they were doing they had the genocidal character do a genocide? seems like they knew what they were doing to me
Thank Alex Afrasiabi for that, lol. He wanted to ruin her character and he did.
And then they doubled down on it by trying for a saving throw. They should have taken the L, killed off the waifu, and moved the story forward. Nope, gotta stick her in the ~~freezer~~ maw until people forget about the terrible writing and they can bring her back.
That would've been the only way to fix that mess, but yeah, they didn't. It was all just because she felt bad about two eels.
The beginning of her downfall began in WoTLK and Cata sealed it. I know a lot of people wanted to believe in her in Legion, but BFA and Shadowlands had all but confirmed what we first began to realize in WoTLK/ Cata era.
> I know a lot of people wanted to believe in her in Legion which is weird because she did absolutely nothing for fighting against the Legion after the initial battle. she even diverts her forces out of the way to endanger the greater mission so she can enslave the valkyr.
It started with the End Times dungeon in Cata. I knew a longtime Undead player who almost quit WoW because he was so pissed with what they predicted as her future in that dungeon. At the time I thought he was overreacting. Turns out he was right.
I hated her at the beginning of Cata. When you play through the Worgen intro, she solemnly promised to not spread any more plague goo around, and what does she do? Turns right around and orders all of Gilneas to be coated in the stuff. And she faces no consequences for blowing off the Warcheif. I get that she is just trying to help her people survive. But that does not excuse rampant stupidity. The whole point of World of Warcraft is that both sides are in the right sometimes, both are in the wrong sometimes. They are just stuck in a cycle of war at the behest of cosmic forces and they have no real control over it. And she takes a running leap into the pools of the irredeemably evil. Drags herself out then jumps right back in again. Repeatedly. The Forsaken are supposed to be edgy and emo. But they are also supposed to feel like they might be playing misunderstood good guys or anti-heroes I have said it before and I will say it again, if the undead recruited the same way warlocks do, they could continue to grow their population with willing subjects. If they had a tent set up next to the medics at a battlefield they could easily justify raising battle casualties the light couldn’t save to continue the fight. Or enemy combatants. The Alliance would be horrified, but it is a lot more justifiable than killing civilians
> I get that she is just trying to help her people survive. Honestly never been convinced by this line. She might say it a bunch, and people say it a bunch about her, but she very blatantly treats the Forsaken like a weapon to be wielded by her and her alone. Any Forsaken who don't profess fealty to her are put back in the dirt, and she put them in danger with her warmongering instead of trying to establish peaceful relations with her neighbors. They were a tool for her to take vengeance against Arthas, and then to destroy anything that might threaten her immortal undeath.
Everything she did in BFA was consistent with how she acted in Cata, we just tend to gloss over how evil she was because she was still helping the Horde. Plaguing civilians, making more forsaken, torturing forsaken who she deemed not loyal enough, etc etc.
[удалено]
There are, in fact, many who were raised by the Lich King and, after breaking free, *didn't* go on to orchestrate multiple genocides.
No excuses.
Lord Godfrey you will be missed! Why didn’t we listen to him on Sylvanas?
They did Sylvannas dirty. She went from the coolest character with an actual backstory to just another generic villain
Now I fight as Hoarah Loux, Warrior !
Cataclysm's zone plots were some of the best wow ever had to offer by far. More of interest and consequence happens in the Undercity versus Gilneas Cata story than all of Dragonflight. By far.
If she had been left dead, it would have prevented a lot of suffering in our lives.
Nah, you see, the current narrative from Blizzard is that it's okay for genocide to happen because it drives us to doing something positive. Yes, they're telling us that bad things must happen to us. That's the shit that the Infinites have been fighting against, because it's bullshit. But now we have Infinites joining us and saying "Well maybe thousands dying wasn't so bad if it lead to Y happening".
I don't expect blizzard writers to defeat the problem of evil on a meta-ethical level in their fantasy rpg. Maybe the suffering does need to happen in wow, at least there are forces trying to rise against it.
It's an awful, awful thing to write, as if a conclussion cannot be had without a particularly horrible event happening. There's more than one way to reach the same conclussion about something. We didn't need genocide to tell us that war is bad or to unite against evil.
I mean it's just a video game, it's not a real genocide. I think it's cool to try and push the boundaries of reality in a fantasy game. >conclussion cannot be had without a particularly horrible event happening. There are people who feel this way. Personally I think that people will create badness in times of good, and goodness in times that are bad.
Well yeah it's not real but the morality of it is still twisted even from the POV of the characters.
That's the point. The issue is they decided to attach it to some cosmic BS rather than just leaving it as a "holy shit did we actually just do that" plot element.
Nah it would have been revealed she's been the jailer all along as some poetic the captured becomes the captor bullshit and I'm not sure if it would have destroyed Arthas story more or less than what we got.
People better start putting some RESPECT on my boy’s name!
Where is that from?
Silverpine forest questing post cataclysm. A few gilneans go into undeath to avoid becoming worgen and manage to assassinate sylvannas who gets resurrected by the sacrifice of three valkyre
> A few gilneans go into undeath to avoid becoming worgen Correction, Godfrey yeets himself off a cliff over following Greymane, and Sylvanas finds his corpse.
Lord GOATfrey is genuinely such a peak character. Kills himself so he doesn't have to serve a Worgen King, is resurrected and immediately does whatever tf he wants disobeying the Forsaken commands, enacts revenge against his people and then Sylvanas herself with a fucking submachine gun in Warcraft.
Garrosh could have saved us from the Shadowlands. He knew she was trash.
Old god puppet, so much better.
I mean in my opinion yeah. I would have much rather fought another old god puppet as long as he killed the entire reason we ended up in the expansion that shall not be named. The writing would have certainly been a lot less of a mess as well. Edit: The wrong warchief died on Pandaria. You keep Vol’Jin and Sylvannas can die almost as a martyr trying to defeat a fully corrupted Garrosh (maybe the end to the mythic fight). That way the stans are happy and we get to avoid a lot of janky lore.
> The writing would have certainly been a lot less of a mess as well. The writing was a mess due to the state of Blizzard, not because of Sylvanas. She was a consequence of that.
Not that I’m saying what was going on wasn’t awful but I think this is kind of a cop out. Especially since we now know they’re what, like two expansions ahead when the current one releases. (I.E working on BFA when Pandaria is out). The writers aren’t just coming up with stuff off the cuff, unless they were and I missed something then I’ll admit I’m wrong for sure.
Blizzard has been mismanaged and milked by Activision for a very long time. BFA and Shadowlands were the low point of a long descent. They're only showing signs of improvement because it finally started hitting their profits when they got there.
Garrosh was unique in that he controlled the old god, not the other way round.
He thought he was controlling the Old God, but he was wrong. Look at how he kept using the Bell on his kor'kron even though even the most disciplined members were driven mad or just outright died. Look at how the Klaxxi immediately joined him. The insane visions he has when you're fighting him in Siege. Garrosh was being played like a puppet by the corpse of a dead old god. Direct control isn't the only, or even necessarily the best, means of manipulating someone.
Only because Blizzard couldn't fucking pick a side to write him on, either. Besides, given all the players simping over a fucking sentient knife who we know is doing it dirty for the void, I don't think being an Old God puppet is anything anyone gives a shit about. Mark my words, 80% of the playerbase would happily do so if they could get a shiny legendary out of it.
Blizz clearly knew which way they wanted him to go. The one writer who thought different and provided a single questline where Garrosh isn’t an ass to fucking everyone around him can only be thought of as the sad gasp for a interesting character.
Knew and did nothing about it since what she was doing benefited him.
No, she was a bitch.
Trash, bitch, same thing.
Is there addon that changes the text to: "Lady Sylvanas Windrunner fucking dies."?
The amount of people that don't know lore in this game but pretend they do is atrocious
Godfrey was one of the coolest characters they've ever made.
a four letter name in this day and age?? so jealous 😭
Nah, but remember, Sylvanas is a brilliant tactician. Nobody could have predicted that the enemy that was trying to kill you would try to kill you if you brought him back to life.
Garrosh and Sylvannas did nothing wrong #burnthetree #bombtheramore
The title of this post makes my brain hurt.
So close 😞
What's that UI and font called?
SUI from curseforge
Godfrey did nothing wrong.
2 million gil Bounty on Lord Godfreys head.
Anyone know what unitframes addon this is? Thanks in advance!
SUI from curseforge
See Im find with shadow of the erdtree being in the "shadowlands" as I can purge wows bad writing out with some good eldenring shadowlands adventures :) no lich king ret cons and sylvanas shelfers there
I really hate the sylvanas story from boa to now. It was the biggest reason I stopped playing and buying wow expansions. Loved my forsaken too much
He's the one that made shadowlands exist, she met the jailer after that headshot
I thought it was after she jumped from icecrown.
It was Icecrown.
What quest is this? I’ve never seen it
It's near the end of the Silverpine questline in Cataclysm, setting up the Shadowfang Keep dungeon. ~~This questline is also the reason Genn hates Sylvanas so much.~~ correction: this was the worgen starting zone questline.
Isn't the Worgen starting zone and Liam's death the reason why he hates her?
It's possible my memory may be conflating those two questlines.
Ahh thank you. I haven’t quested silver pine in years
He the dude that yeeted what was left of Arthas into the maw? Respect if so
"Keep the change, ya filthy animal."
How about we stop hating on a fictional woman because of the story direction created by a sex pest with a history of harassing fans and his coworkers.
based godfrey
based
Keep the change, you filthy animal.
boom! headshot!
"This world is a prision''. Azeroth is the real prision, not the Maw. We will see, soon, the real mastermind behind the Jailor's plan....
I am currently play the new Elden Ring DLC. My first thoughts were "Godfrey never went to the lands of shadow!" Yeah, this is the lame Godfrey.
I was so confused why there was a wow screenshot until I looked at the sub.
Mfs when they see a wow screenshot on a wow subreddit: 😱🤯
That's how I was eariler when I saw a Darth Vader Picture. But it was a Star Wars Subreddit so then it made sense.
The caption could also come from the elden ring subreddit
Fair. Never played it.
I once saw a picture of a formula 1 driver, and the subreddit was formula1, this is crazy
Could it be there is a far more iconic video game character with the same name in the title 🤔
More iconic than Gilnean traitor/revolutionary turned Forsaken traitor/revolutionary Lord Godfrey? *Successful* assassin of Sylvanas? Boss of the revamped Shadowfang Keep? That's unpossible!
Fair enough